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oeo
10-05-2006, 10:39 PM
Rather than dangle Willis and Cabrera this winter to fill gaping holes in center field and in their bullpen, the Marlins could instead package up a few arms from their deep stash of young pitching. Renyel Pinto, Yusmeiro Petit and Jose Garcia figure to top that list.

First baseman Mike Jacobs, who offered below-average defense and tailed off badly at the plate in the second half, also could go in the right deal.

Don't look for the Marlins to pursue a center fielder via free agency, so shelve those thoughts of a Juan Pierre reunion. Instead, the Marlins will pursue a trade for a budding two-way player with low service time.

Brian Anderson (White Sox), Willy Tavares (Astros) and Matt Kemp (Dodgers) all interest the Marlins, according to baseball sources. The Devil Rays' Rocco Baldelli, signed to a below-market deal through at least 2008, might be available in the right deal.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-spmarpayroll05oct05,0,6185901.story?coll=sfla-sports-front

Doesn't really mean much, but I hope Kenny plans on keeping Anderson here for a long time.

jenn2080
10-05-2006, 10:42 PM
They wish they can have Anderson.

Gregory Pratt
10-05-2006, 11:17 PM
Mmhmm, I'd love to give up Anderson for the right deal. Some other team will be foolish enough to think that his stick will become as good as his glove which, IMO, will never happen. He might be a good player; he's not a future All-Star.

buehrle4cy05
10-05-2006, 11:42 PM
If Brian Anderson brings us Dontrelle Willis, I'm all for it.

CLR01
10-05-2006, 11:47 PM
There are probably 28 other teams that would be interested in Anderson too.

MUsoxfan
10-05-2006, 11:59 PM
If Brian Anderson brings us Dontrelle Willis, I'm all for it.


Keep dreaming

munchman33
10-06-2006, 12:53 AM
They wish they can have Anderson.

So do a lot of sox fans.

QCIASOXFAN
10-06-2006, 03:09 AM
If Brian Anderson brings us Dontrelle Willis, I'm all for it.
:unsure: Have you seen Willis hit?:wink:

veeter
10-06-2006, 06:14 AM
So do a lot of sox fans.Yea, all the guys that wanted Crede and Garland out of town. Does anyone understand rookies need time, anymore?

jenn2080
10-06-2006, 07:05 AM
Yea, all the guys that wanted Crede and Garland out of town. Does anyone understand rookies need time, anymore?


I am guessing not. Brian will come around and he will be a stud!

caulfield12
10-06-2006, 07:14 AM
I am guessing not. Brian will come around and he will be a stud!

Or, dare I say his name, Rowand.

shoelessshaun27!
10-06-2006, 07:17 AM
Trade him and some people for Miguel Cabrera.

Thome25
10-06-2006, 08:05 AM
If we could trade Anderson in a blockbuster for Dontrelle Willis, I'd help pack his bags.

Jaffar
10-06-2006, 08:10 AM
The Marlins know nothing about young talent.

ondafarm
10-06-2006, 09:03 AM
I think the rule for trading baseball players is this. Aquire guys who will have value for years and years, but always listen to offers for everyone on your roster. On the other hand, your price for some guys is just to high.

Is Anderson available? Yes, for the right price, but that price has to be pretty high. Willis would meet that price.

Flight #24
10-06-2006, 09:21 AM
Very interesting. While I'm an Anderson fan, I have to say that I would pack his bags and plug Sweeney in to get Willis.

I'd also be intrigued by the prospect of Anderson for prospects and then Garcia+those prospects for Crawford/Young. CC can play CF, right? That could leave a platoon of Fields/Sweeney for LF.

Tekijawa
10-06-2006, 09:58 AM
CC can play CF, right? That could leave a platoon of Fields/Sweeney for LF.

Sabathia? He'd be out of wind walking from the dugout to second base, I don't want him in CF! :)

Jerko
10-06-2006, 10:18 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen, you're 2007 Chicago White Sox left and center fielders..................

:LTP:rowand

Anderson for Borch...........Garcia for Rowand. C'mon Kenny, do it.

Jjav829
10-06-2006, 10:20 AM
Very interesting. While I'm an Anderson fan, I have to say that I would pack his bags and plug Sweeney in to get Willis.

I'd also be intrigued by the prospect of Anderson for prospects and then Garcia+those prospects for Crawford/Young. CC can play CF, right? That could leave a platoon of Fields/Sweeney for LF.

I think you'd have to pack the bags of some combination of McCarthy, Fields and Sweeney as well to get Willis.

I think it's more likely that the Marlins would be looking to trade someone like Yusmiero Petit for Anderson.

southside rocks
10-06-2006, 10:57 AM
The Marlins would trade D-Train for Brian Anderson? In what alternate reality???

Wow. :?:

spiffie
10-06-2006, 11:01 AM
Yea, all the guys that wanted Crede and Garland out of town. Does anyone understand rookies need time, anymore?
Exactly. Just look at Caruso, Borchard, Munoz, Diaz, and Ruffcorn. I hope at least a few of them decide to wear Sox caps on their HOF caps.

Some rookies will never develop. Some will. I think Anderson is somewhere in the middle of that group. I don't think he will ever be a top tier CF when you factor in hitting and defense. He will have a 250 BA and 300 OBP with a good number of doubles and a few homers with very good defense. But the folks who are expecting him to hit 300 I expect are going to be disappointed. I hope I'm wrong.

chaerulez
10-06-2006, 11:09 AM
The fact that the Marlins want Anderson tells you how talented he is. The Marlins' scouting system is obviously one of the best in the league. Look at the young talent they were able to get. They've robbed the Cubs of Willis and Nolasco. They robbed Boston of Sanchez and Ramirez. Their farm system produced Miggy. I'd say they are doing pretty good scouting wise.

Flight #24
10-06-2006, 11:22 AM
I think you'd have to pack the bags of some combination of McCarthy, Fields and Sweeney as well to get Willis.

I think it's more likely that the Marlins would be looking to trade someone like Yusmiero Petit for Anderson.

Yeah, that's probably right. And I'd only do that deal if I could package Petit, Broadway/Haeger, & Garcia for Crawford. Or Petit, Uribe, & Garcia for Young.

DaleJRFan
10-06-2006, 11:25 AM
If the Sox do move Anderson, could the they then settle for someone like Eric Byrnes in CF? He's a righthanded bat and is fairly consistant at the dish. Don't know anything about his defense... but he'll mostlikely become available since AZ might go with Chris Young (sigh). Byrnes is young and could come cheap in trade... plus I doubt he'd break the bank. He's a 260 career hitter with pop, which is a lot more than what was produced by the Sox CF in 06.

Then, KW could work his patended blockbuster deal - some combo of Garcia/Vazquez + Anderson + Prospects netting the Sox Michael Young, Carl Crawford or Dontrelle Willis.

caulfield12
10-06-2006, 11:57 AM
Yeah, that's probably right. And I'd only do that deal if I could package Petit, Broadway/Haeger, & Garcia for Crawford. Or Petit, Uribe, & Garcia for Young.

Didn't the Cubs try the whole trading 3 pitchers for a one-year rental thing?

Seriously, I how many times has it worked that you traded three young/quality pitchers for a position player?

Obviously, Crawford is more than a one year rental and he's a much better player than Pierre, but I don't think this is wise, based on the fact that we need pitching a lot more than we need to replace 0.30 in OBP.

And quality pitching DEPTH is just as important, which is what we've given up the last three years with the trades of Rupe, Lumsden, Haigwood, Gonzalez, Fabio Castro Rule 5, etc.

Flight #24
10-06-2006, 01:06 PM
Didn't the Cubs try the whole trading 3 pitchers for a one-year rental thing?

Seriously, I how many times has it worked that you traded three young/quality pitchers for a position player?

Obviously, Crawford is more than a one year rental and he's a much better player than Pierre, but I don't think this is wise, based on the fact that we need pitching a lot more than we need to replace 0.30 in OBP.

And quality pitching DEPTH is just as important, which is what we've given up the last three years with the trades of Rupe, Lumsden, Haigwood, Gonzalez, Fabio Castro Rule 5, etc.

You'd still have major-league ready depth in Broadway/Haeger, and there's still Tracey, Liotta, a bit further down.

For the Sox, it's a decent but not great pitching prospect, Anderson, and Garcia for a guy who's an all-star caliber, 5-tool OF who's still young and has a cheap deal for a while. Not a 1-2 tool Juan Pierre who's a year away from FA.

caulfield12
10-06-2006, 01:23 PM
You'd still have major-league ready depth in Broadway/Haeger, and there's still Tracey, Liotta, a bit further down.

For the Sox, it's a decent but not great pitching prospect, Anderson, and Garcia for a guy who's an all-star caliber, 5-tool OF who's still young and has a cheap deal for a while. Not a 1-2 tool Juan Pierre who's a year away from FA.


Juan Pierre is MR. 3 TOOL. Or Tool-3.

What was the name of our bench group again last year?

CHISOXFAN13
10-06-2006, 01:27 PM
Juan Pierre is MR. 3 TOOL. Or Tool-3.

What was the name of our bench group again last year?

Group 4.

soxtalker
10-06-2006, 05:43 PM
What's the timing on the Venezuelan league? I would imagine that the Sox will use that to make some judgements as to how far along Anderson and the other young outfielders are progressing.

There were several posters who suggested that such a trade would involve Willis. But I wouldn't mind acquiring some of the young pitchers who are just about to make the big leagues. They can always be viewed as currency for other trades.

FedEx227
10-06-2006, 11:48 PM
Didn't the Cubs try the whole trading 3 pitchers for a one-year rental thing?

Seriously, I how many times has it worked that you traded three young/quality pitchers for a position player?


Rarely, look to the North side.

E-5, D-Lee anyone?

Sox-o-matic
10-07-2006, 01:51 AM
Mmhmm, I'd love to give up Anderson for the right deal. Some other team will be foolish enough to think that his stick will become as good as his glove which, IMO, will never happen. He might be a good player; he's not a future All-Star.

How do you know? If he hits .300 25 90 he will put up numbers good enough to make the allstar team at least as a reserve.

So far there is nothing at all to show that he will not be that type of player. If he gets 500+ AB's next year and fails to hit .280 or above and fails to hit 15 home runs, then there will be reason to think he may only be average. But it is far too early to say hes not a future top centerfielder.

Nellie_Fox
10-07-2006, 02:43 AM
How do you know? If he hits .300 25 90 he will put up numbers good enough to make the allstar team at least as a reserve.

So far there is nothing at all to show that he will not be that type of player. If he gets 500+ AB's next year and fails to hit .280 or above and fails to hit 15 home runs, then there will be reason to think he may only be average. But it is far too early to say hes not a future top centerfielder..300 25 90 are Harold Baines type numbers. There is nothing at all to show that he will be that kind of player.

Beautox
10-07-2006, 05:06 AM
Mmhmm, I'd love to give up Anderson for the right deal. Some other team will be foolish enough to think that his stick will become as good as his glove which, IMO, will never happen. He might be a good player; he's not a future All-Star.
ha! what in his collegiate and milb record tell you he wont suceed, sorry he didn't hit 300+ with 15 HR and 15SB along with more BB than SO his first time at the ML level, but the marlins(the best at evalutating talent imho) seem to think Brian has alot of talent, and i for one agree with Flemming. Brian is a rare talent, i bet you would give up on 22yr old Jeremy Hermida(of the marlins) after this so so year. Personally im expecting big things out of both of them in '07.

cws05champ
10-07-2006, 12:02 PM
The Marlins know nothing about young talent.

Exactly...if the Marlins like him, that means he'll be pretty good. They know young talent and how to fleece other clubs of it.

JUribe1989
10-07-2006, 12:15 PM
So do a lot of sox fans.

Perfect quote for this thread. :bandance:

Lillian
10-07-2006, 12:15 PM
A few things should be noted about Brian Anderson. He made the switch from college, and the aluminum bat, to professional ball, with relative ease.
He had a three year minor league career batting average of .301.
He'll be 25 this Spring. Considering his significant improvement in the second half, it would seem like there is plenty of reason not to give up on him.
We all know that it takes time to develop into a Major League hitter. Compare his minor league numbers to Crede. Joe is 4 years older, and played four more years in the minor leagues, because he didn't go to the University, as Brian did. Crede had almost three times as many at bats in the minors, with a career batting average of .292. We all remember Joe's miserable .239 average in 2004.
It doesn't seem reasonable to be so down on Brian, because of his first 160 at bats, in his first year. Apparently, people who evaluate talent for a living, think that he will be a good major league hitter, and we all know that his defense is stellar.
He is the only true center fielder left in the Sox organization. Be patient.

southside rocks
10-07-2006, 08:46 PM
ha! what in his collegiate and milb record tell you he wont suceed, sorry he didn't hit 300+ with 15 HR and 15SB along with more BB than SO his first time at the ML level, but the marlins(the best at evalutating talent imho) seem to think Brian has alot of talent, and i for one agree with Flemming. Brian is a rare talent, i bet you would give up on 22yr old Jeremy Hermida(of the marlins) after this so so year. Personally im expecting big things out of both of them in '07.

Look at BA's minor-league batting records: he has very few BB and strikes out a lot. He's never had "more BB than SO" in his career. If he's "a rare talent" it hasn't shown yet.

Defensively he's excellent and may prove exceptional. Offensively, he's been a good hitter at the minor-league level and not a good hitter at the major-league level. Next year will be an important year for him in that regard.

Sox-o-matic
10-07-2006, 11:25 PM
ha! what in his collegiate and milb record tell you he wont suceed, sorry he didn't hit 300+ with 15 HR and 15SB along with more BB than SO his first time at the ML level, but the marlins(the best at evalutating talent imho) seem to think Brian has alot of talent, and i for one agree with Flemming. Brian is a rare talent, i bet you would give up on 22yr old Jeremy Hermida(of the marlins) after this so so year. Personally im expecting big things out of both of them in '07.

I agree that it is way, way too early to even think about giving up on Brian. If he was a poor defender I'd be all for it, but with a glove like that you have to take a serious look at what he has accomplished in his rookie year rather than concentrating solely on his failures.

In his rookie year, Brian had a terrible April and May. After a 19 for 125 start (.152), he hit .291 from 6/11 - 8/31. He hit .200 to finish the season, bringing his average from 6/11 and on to .266. In all, I'd say he made major strides offensively since mid June.

It's so easy for people to criticise him, especially people on this site, but take into consideration what Brian has had to battle through all season.

First off, he started the year as a rookie who many say has been rushed by the Sox in the first place. He came in to help defend a World Series title as a replacement for a fan favorite. Despite being told that as long as his defense showed up any offense would be looked at as a bonus, he was immediately called out by his own manager. He's been criticized left and right by the media, the fans, and often appeared to be a scapegoat for Ozzie and his ineffective pitching staff. On top of that his playing time was cut.

Now every person has a right to criticize him for his lack of offense, but come on already. He's had one tough rookie year. Give him a ****ing break already!

BTW, about the Marlins being good talent evaluators there is no way to disagree with that, but right now Arizona might be even better at that than Florida, and they just took Chris Young from us. Obviously KW chose to keep Anderson over Young, so I think it will be interesting next year to see which player has the better season.

southside rocks
10-07-2006, 11:54 PM
In his rookie year, Brian had a terrible April and May. After a 19 for 125 start (.152), he hit .291 from 6/11 - 8/31. He hit .200 to finish the season, bringing his average from 6/11 and on to .266. In all, I'd say he made major strides offensively since mid June.

It's so easy for people to criticise him, especially people on this site, but take into consideration what Brian has had to battle through all season.

First off, he started the year as a rookie who many say has been rushed by the Sox in the first place. He came in to help defend a World Series title as a replacement for a fan favorite. Despite being told that as long as his defense showed up any offense would be looked at as a bonus, he was immediately called out by his own manager. He's been criticized left and right by the media, the fans, and often appeared to be a scapegoat for Ozzie and his ineffective pitching staff. On top of that his playing time was cut.


After hitting .161 in April, .167 in May and .196 in June, Anderson bounced back to hit .313 in July and .296 in August after receiving a vote of confidence from manager Ozzie Guillen and Williams. His on-base percentage even rose to .364 in August. But Anderson has closed out the season on a slightly lower note, hitting .217 in September.

Source: WhiteSox.com

"He was immediately called out by his own manager"? Um, can you give a source for that statement? Because you're bashing Ozzie Guillen, and although it is quite the thing lately to do that, in this case it seems to me to be unwarranted.

Brian Anderson -- and I am not ripping the kid, I like him and expect him to mature into a fine player -- came out of the gate and had three bad months at the plate. Half the season. Then, and only then, his manager made some comments about BA's lack of good at-bats. Ozzie never lambasted BA for not hitting, but only for not giving good at-bats. For not taking pitches, for lunging at balls three feet out of the strike zone, for making non-productive outs.

"Often... a scapegoat for Ozzie and his ineffective pitching staff"? Ozzie said all year that BA never cost the Sox a single game. How is Anderson now a "scapegoat", since no one is blaming him for anything? On the contrary, the club has said all along that the pitching did not come through this year as it was expected to do, and that is why the Sox didn't go to the post-season.

"His playing time was cut"? No, I don't think that's true. Anderson had as many at-bats after the ASB as he did before the ASB. How and when was his playing time cut?

I understand that Anderson has fans -- I am one of them -- and I understand that Ozzie has detractors, even some who are fans. I don't understand turning facts upside down to paint Brian Anderson's disappointing offensive year as something that had nothing to do with BA and was all the fault of Ozzie Guillen. The media did it this year and now some of the fans are doing it.

Finally, Anderson's own comments are more to the point than anything else, here -- again from WhiteSox.com:

"It's true that I do need to have smarter and better at-bats, battle more and not give away so many at-bats. I gave away a lot of at-bats this year, so I need to eliminate those on stupid mistakes. Then, the season would look better from a numbers standpoint.

"I'm going to take the offseason and use it as a learning experience and come back next year and get after it," Anderson added. "If they show some patience like they did, I'll come back next year and do well."

Clembasbal
10-08-2006, 08:59 AM
Yea, all the guys that wanted Crede and Garland out of town. Does anyone understand rookies need time, anymore?

I always wanted Garland here, and Crede was a two time MVP in the minors...I knew he would blossom (Proving your comment inaccurate).

On the other hand, Anderson needs to go ASAP

Beautox
10-09-2006, 02:31 AM
Look at BA's minor-league batting records: he has very few BB and strikes out a lot. He's never had "more BB than SO" in his career. If he's "a rare talent" it hasn't shown yet.

Defensively he's excellent and may prove exceptional. Offensively, he's been a good hitter at the minor-league level and not a good hitter at the major-league level. Next year will be an important year for him in that regard.

*shakes head*, i know anderson has never had more BB than SO i was simply saying that as an example of success more BB than SO = Good. People want instant gratification with Brian because this years crop of Rookies has been phenomenal, it takes time not everyone can step into the show with no problems, very few do. As for rare talent, he was one of the top 5 defensive CFers in baseball this year and from the ASB onward he only got better with his bat, and even when he wasn't hitting in the first half he was at least drawing a walk every once in a while and not taking it out to CF with him.

Beautox
10-09-2006, 02:38 AM
I agree that it is way, way too early to even think about giving up on Brian. If he was a poor defender I'd be all for it, but with a glove like that you have to take a serious look at what he has accomplished in his rookie year rather than concentrating solely on his failures.

In his rookie year, Brian had a terrible April and May. After a 19 for 125 start (.152), he hit .291 from 6/11 - 8/31. He hit .200 to finish the season, bringing his average from 6/11 and on to .266. In all, I'd say he made major strides offensively since mid June.

It's so easy for people to criticise him, especially people on this site, but take into consideration what Brian has had to battle through all season.

First off, he started the year as a rookie who many say has been rushed by the Sox in the first place. He came in to help defend a World Series title as a replacement for a fan favorite. Despite being told that as long as his defense showed up any offense would be looked at as a bonus, he was immediately called out by his own manager. He's been criticized left and right by the media, the fans, and often appeared to be a scapegoat for Ozzie and his ineffective pitching staff. On top of that his playing time was cut.

Now every person has a right to criticize him for his lack of offense, but come on already. He's had one tough rookie year. Give him a ****ing break already!

BTW, about the Marlins being good talent evaluators there is no way to disagree with that, but right now Arizona might be even better at that than Florida, and they just took Chris Young from us. Obviously KW chose to keep Anderson over Young, so I think it will be interesting next year to see which player has the better season.

I agree with most of your points except one. Young played in the futures game and was considered a very good prospect almost a no brainier. The D-Backs left Uggla off their 40man roster after he tore up AA. The marlins found gold and a ROY candidate just wasting away down at AA and picked him up at the rule V draft, and aside from that they fleeced the cubs for 1 yr of Pierre; Mitre(the selling point), Nolasco & Renyel Pinto (the real talent).

socko82
10-09-2006, 09:21 AM
On the list of reasons for the Sox missing the postseason Brian's season does not rank in the top 5 (top 10 maybe) so this is not a "Blame Brian" post. But what exactly has he shown to make anyone believe he's anything more than the next Jeremy Reed? His supporters love to point to his big turnaround in the second half. Well, other than a home run he hit in Seattle in April, can anyone name one big hit he got all year? During his "big turnaround" after the allstar break he drove in a total of 13 runs. On top of that he appears to be less than popular with his veteran teammates. To me he's shown to be nothing more than a 4th outfielder and late inning defensive replacement going into next spring if he's still here. If he earns his way into more AB's, then great, but I think the Sox would be foolish to not try to upgrade centerfield. I'm not saying the Sox should dump him but I wouldn't hesitate to move him either.

southside rocks
10-09-2006, 09:50 AM
*shakes head*, i know anderson has never had more BB than SO i was simply saying that as an example of success more BB than SO = Good. People want instant gratification with Brian because this years crop of Rookies has been phenomenal, it takes time not everyone can step into the show with no problems, very few do. As for rare talent, he was one of the top 5 defensive CFers in baseball this year and from the ASB onward he only got better with his bat, and even when he wasn't hitting in the first half he was at least drawing a walk every once in a while and not taking it out to CF with him.

Totally agree, any player who can manage to take more BB than he does SO is a generally disciplined hitter. It starts with learning to take a pitch, and although that seems like such an easy thing to do, it often isn't.

I have no argument with the idea that it will take more than one year for Anderson to show his true worth. I did not expect him to hit .300 in 2006, although .250 would have been nice. :tongue:

It's not quite true, however, that "from the ASB onward he only got better with his bat." He hit a nasty slump in September and batted .200 for the month. That tells me that he still has some work to do with regard to his hitting. The Sox organization wants him to play winter ball for that very reason.

I am a fan of Anderson's. But I'm a fan who doesn't expect him to walk across Lake Michigan. And most of all, I'm really tired of seeing Ozzie Guillen get crap for this, as if BA's sub-par rookie year is all Ozzie's fault. That's the reason I posted what I did above, not to bash Anderson.

I believe that Ozzie knew that Anderson should have spent another year in Charlotte, but Ozzie also already had problems in the outfield, this season, what with Mackowiak being such a defensive liability and Podsednik having such an awful year. If they sent BA down, they'd have had to trade for a CF, and for whatever reason, they didn't want to do that. In hindsight, I wonder if they regret that.

Sox-o-matic
10-09-2006, 12:40 PM
I agree with most of your points except one. Young played in the futures game and was considered a very good prospect almost a no brainier. The D-Backs left Uggla off their 40man roster after he tore up AA. The marlins found gold and a ROY candidate just wasting away down at AA and picked him up at the rule V draft, and aside from that they fleeced the cubs for 1 yr of Pierre; Mitre(the selling point), Nolasco & Renyel Pinto (the real talent).

Good point about Uggla, I didn't even know he came from AZ. Maybe the Marlins are a little bit better then, but both organizations have a ton of talent and I think that if either one values our players we shouldn't be so eager to send them packing.

Anderson may turn out to be a bust, you never know, but I really think he is going to be a solid centerfielder in the Majors. I just hope it is with the Sox because the Sox really can't afford a Torii Hunter/Andruw Jones/Vernon Wells type player while paying everyone else, and I still haven't bought into Ryan Sweeney yet.

JB98
10-09-2006, 01:22 PM
Yea, all the guys that wanted Crede and Garland out of town. Does anyone understand rookies need time, anymore?

I'm a long-time supporter of both Crede and Garland, but I can't stand Anderson. I'd trade him without a second thought.

Be careful with your generalizations.

JB98
10-09-2006, 01:28 PM
The Marlins would trade D-Train for Brian Anderson? In what alternate reality???

Wow. :?:

Never underestimate the BA love on WSI. People here firmly believe he will be great, and that every other team in baseball would kill to have someone like BA in CF.

The Marlins would have to be so high on crack to give us Willis for BA. If we gave them BA, McCarthy and an additional prospect, they might consider it.

Sox-o-matic
10-09-2006, 01:29 PM
I'm a long-time supporter of both Crede and Garland, but I can't stand Anderson. I'd trade him without a second thought.

Be careful with your generalizations.

Just wondering, but why were you supportive of Crede during his prolonged struggles and yet unwilling to give Brian a chance? Crede looked terrible at the plate for a long, long time while playing D, which is pretty much a rough critique of Anderson's rookie season.

JB98
10-09-2006, 01:36 PM
On the list of reasons for the Sox missing the postseason Brian's season does not rank in the top 5 (top 10 maybe) so this is not a "Blame Brian" post. But what exactly has he shown to make anyone believe he's anything more than the next Jeremy Reed? His supporters love to point to his big turnaround in the second half. Well, other than a home run he hit in Seattle in April, can anyone name one big hit he got all year? During his "big turnaround" after the allstar break he drove in a total of 13 runs. On top of that he appears to be less than popular with his veteran teammates. To me he's shown to be nothing more than a 4th outfielder and late inning defensive replacement going into next spring if he's still here. If he earns his way into more AB's, then great, but I think the Sox would be foolish to not try to upgrade centerfield. I'm not saying the Sox should dump him but I wouldn't hesitate to move him either.

He had two big hits all year. The HR you referenced, and a two-run single off Rogers to tie a game against Detroit on 8/12. The Sox went on to win 4-3. Two big hits in nearly 400 plate appearance. Whoopee.

Anderson was not remotely productive. I know Crede hit .239 in 2004. But the comparison doesn't hold water because Joe has always hit the clutch and put up a decent RBI total. Hell, look at Uribe this season. His average sucks, but at least we got 70 RBIs out of him.

Palehose13
10-09-2006, 01:38 PM
Exactly. Just look at Caruso, Borchard, Munoz, Diaz, and Ruffcorn. I hope at least a few of them decide to wear Sox caps on their HOF caps.

Some rookies will never develop. Some will. I think Anderson is somewhere in the middle of that group. I don't think he will ever be a top tier CF when you factor in hitting and defense. He will have a 250 BA and 300 OBP with a good number of doubles and a few homers with very good defense. But the folks who are expecting him to hit 300 I expect are going to be disappointed. I hope I'm wrong.

I'm a long-time supporter of both Crede and Garland, but I can't stand Anderson. I'd trade him without a second thought.

Be careful with your generalizations.

Never underestimate the BA love on WSI. People here firmly believe he will be great, and that every other team in baseball would kill to have someone like BA in CF.

I'm not sold on Brian Anderson either. I think he'll have a fine MLB career, nothing close to HOF and probably not as short as Chris Singleton.

I also find it amusing that the BA-supporters are the ones that mention Rowand more than the people who like Rowand. Seems like the FOBA have more blind loyalty than FOC's ever did. And then there's that guy who loves Chris Singleton... :cool:
It's kinda like the "dark cloud" thing last year where most people using that word were saying "Don't call me a dark cloud" before anyone said anything about it.

rdwj
10-09-2006, 01:41 PM
Just wondering, but why were you supportive of Crede during his prolonged struggles and yet unwilling to give Brian a chance? Crede looked terrible at the plate for a long, long time while playing D, which is pretty much a rough critique of Anderson's rookie season.

Because saying that after the fact is easy.

JB98
10-09-2006, 01:41 PM
Just wondering, but why were you supportive of Crede during his prolonged struggles and yet unwilling to give Brian a chance? Crede looked terrible at the plate for a long, long time while playing D, which is pretty much a rough critique of Anderson's rookie season.

Despite Joe's poor average in previous years, he always produced some power, got some big hits and drove in some key runs. Run production is more important to me than batting average. In Crede, we always got some decent run production with him at the bottom of the order, even when he was hitting .230 or .240. Anderson just hasn't shown me that he's a run producer. If he isn't going to produce power, then he better learn to steal some damn bases. I haven't seen that capability from him yet either.

southside rocks
10-09-2006, 02:16 PM
Despite Joe's poor average in previous years, he always produced some power, got some big hits and drove in some key runs. Run production is more important to me than batting average. In Crede, we always got some decent run production with him at the bottom of the order, even when he was hitting .230 or .240. Anderson just hasn't shown me that he's a run producer. If he isn't going to produce power, then he better learn to steal some damn bases. I haven't seen that capability from him yet either.

And the numbers bear that out.

Crede in 2002: 200 AB, 35 RBI
Batted .279 w/RISP,
batted .273 w/RISP and 2 out;
batted .286 w/bases loaded.

Crede in 2003: 536 AB, 75 RBI
RISP .285
RISP w/2 out .292
bases loaded .318

Crede in 2004: 490 AB, 69 RBI
RISP .238
RISP w/2 out .189
bases loaded .333

And the Magnificent Anderson in 2006: 365 AB, 33 RBI
RISP .195
RISP w/2 out .175
bases loaded .000

Yikes.

Mohoney
10-09-2006, 02:24 PM
.300 25 90 are Harold Baines type numbers. There is nothing at all to show that he will be that kind of player.

I agree with this. That stat line is putting the bar too high for a 2nd year player.

How can he get 90 RBI hitting #8 or #9?

PatK
10-09-2006, 02:25 PM
The fact that the Marlins want Anderson tells you how talented he is. The Marlins' scouting system is obviously one of the best in the league. Look at the young talent they were able to get. They've robbed the Cubs of Willis and Nolasco. They robbed Boston of Sanchez and Ramirez. Their farm system produced Miggy. I'd say they are doing pretty good scouting wise.

They also traded Derrick Lee for Hee Sop Choi.

Ol' No. 2
10-09-2006, 02:28 PM
And the numbers bear that out.

Crede in 2002: 200 AB, 35 RBI
Batted .279 w/RISP,
batted .273 w/RISP and 2 out;
batted .286 w/bases loaded.

Crede in 2003: 536 AB, 75 RBI
RISP .285
RISP w/2 out .292
bases loaded .318

Crede in 2004: 490 AB, 69 RBI
RISP .238
RISP w/2 out .189
bases loaded .333

And the Magnificent Anderson in 2006: 365 AB, 33 RBI
RISP .195
RISP w/2 out .175
bases loaded .000

Yikes.It's pretty clear that BA wasn't as ready as everyone thought he was. It happens. In retrospect, it might seem that they would have been better off sending him down to AAA and trading for a replacement, but it's doubtful that would have made any real difference in the final standings, so it's just as well they didn't.

Next year he might hit .310.

Or he might hit .210.

Or anywhere in between.

Anyone who thinks they know the answer is kidding themselves.

Palehose13
10-09-2006, 02:29 PM
They also traded Derrick Lee for Hee Sop Choi.
Zing!

Craig Grebeck
10-09-2006, 02:37 PM
Judging a player by their amount of "big hits" is ridiculous. Considering AJ had a horrid second half (OBP wise) and Juan was terrible, how was BA supposed to knock runs in? KW needs to have a backup plan, but it's alright to go with BA as long as SS/LF are upgraded.

Ol' No. 2
10-09-2006, 02:50 PM
Judging a player by their amount of "big hits" is ridiculous. Considering AJ had a horrid second half (OBP wise) and Juan was terrible, how was BA supposed to knock runs in? KW needs to have a backup plan, but it's alright to go with BA as long as SS/LF are upgraded.The way I look at it, aside from the obvious pitching problems, there are three positions that are potential places for upgrades: SS, LF and CF. But they don't necessarily have to change all three. Any two would still be a big improvement. Even one would make a difference.

But if they're going to go into 2007 with BA in CF, they need to have a better Plan B than Rob Mackowiak. I wouldn't mind seeing them start the season platooning Sweeney and Anderson and see who steps up.

KyWhiSoxFan
10-09-2006, 02:52 PM
I'm not sure why everyone is such an apologist for Anderson and so quick to defend him. He's done nothing to deserve that kind of support. His numbers are terrible and he showed little progress through the year to suggest he will turn it around anytime soon.

Don't tell me he batted .290 from the All-Star break. He was held out against the best pitchers and when he was in he had virtually no meaningful hits all year. Let's look at the last game of the year, when he batted against Nathan. Anderson looked terrible at the plate, never coming close to getting a bat on the ball, swinging feebly his last two strikes, striking out. When Sweeney came up after him, at least Sweeney got his bat on the ball and put it into play.

Anderson must be replaced in 2007. He is the fourth outfielder at best. The Sox can't afford to risk another year of no production from the CF position. If the Marlins want him, I say great, make an offer.

JB98
10-09-2006, 04:16 PM
Judging a player by their amount of "big hits" is ridiculous. Considering AJ had a horrid second half (OBP wise) and Juan was terrible, how was BA supposed to knock runs in? KW needs to have a backup plan, but it's alright to go with BA as long as SS/LF are upgraded.

So getting big hits isn't important? I hate to quote Hawk, but don't tell me what you hit. Tell me when you hit it.

JB98
10-09-2006, 04:17 PM
They also traded Derrick Lee for Hee Sop Choi.

They also picked up Borch.

socko82
10-09-2006, 04:43 PM
The "The Can't Miss Kids":

Jeff Abbott...Jeremy Reed....Joe Borchard...Brian Anderson

Craig Grebeck
10-09-2006, 09:15 PM
So getting big hits isn't important? I hate to quote Hawk, but don't tell me what you hit. Tell me when you hit it.
I never said that, but it's ridiculous to judge a player based on hits you remember. That's why stats are kept, and you could've easily looked at his 2nd half splits and see how he progressed.

And quoting someone who knows next to nothing about baseball hurts your case.

Jjav829
10-09-2006, 09:22 PM
I never said that, but it's ridiculous to judge a player based on hits you remember. That's why stats are kept, and you could've easily looked at his 2nd half splits and see how he progressed.

And quoting someone who knows next to nothing about baseball hurts your case.

Anderson's progression:
First half/Second half
G:68/66
AB: 182/183
R: 26/20
H: 35/47
2B: 9/14
3B: 0/1
HR: 5/3
RBI: 20/13
BB: 21/9
K: 49/41
SB: 3/1
CS: 2/5
AVG: .192/.257
OBP: .280/.301
SLG: .324/.393
OPS: .604/.694

You're a stathead, aren't you concerned that his walks dropped from 21 in the first half to only 9 in the second half, and that despite the big rise of AVG (which statheads claim isn't a good stat to measure a player with), his OBP rose by only .021 (obviously to due the drop in walks)?

Craig Grebeck
10-09-2006, 09:31 PM
Anderson's progression:
First half/Second half
G:68/66
AB: 182/183
R: 26/20
H: 35/47
2B: 9/14
3B: 0/1
HR: 5/3
RBI: 20/13
BB: 21/9
K: 49/41
SB: 3/1
CS: 2/5
AVG: .192/.257
OBP: .280/.301
SLG: .324/.393
OPS: .604/.694

You're a stathead, aren't you concerned that his walks dropped from 21 in the first half to only 9 in the second half, and that despite the big rise of AVG (which statheads claim isn't a good stat to measure a player with), his OBP rose by only .021 (obviously to due the drop in walks)?
He did cut his walks in half, and that is troubling. The main problem I have is that he is consistently thrown under the bus by everyone on this board, and the worst everyday player in the game is penciled in at SS for years to come.

Brian is still young and cheap, it's alright to give him time.

And I would much rather have Olsen or Nolasco instead of D-Train. His arm is going to fall off sometime soon.

JB98
10-09-2006, 10:08 PM
I never said that, but it's ridiculous to judge a player based on hits you remember. That's why stats are kept, and you could've easily looked at his 2nd half splits and see how he progressed.

And quoting someone who knows next to nothing about baseball hurts your case.

Guess what? I judge players on what I observe by watching games. Not by what I see on the stat sheet. **** his second-half splits. I don't care. In September, BA was giving us the same poor quality ABs that he gave us the first three months of the year. I don't think he's made much progress at all.

You have to understand that I don't give a squirt a piss about BA's .313 average in the month of July. It's all about run production. BA does not produce runs for this team. He didn't produce runs in any month of the season. Even in July and August when his batting average was respectable, he wasn't adding much to the offense.

He is the stereotypical all-field, no-hit player.

JB98
10-09-2006, 10:10 PM
He did cut his walks in half, and that is troubling. The main problem I have is that he is consistently thrown under the bus by everyone on this board, and the worst everyday player in the game is penciled in at SS for years to come.

Brian is still young and cheap, it's alright to give him time.

And I would much rather have Olsen or Nolasco instead of D-Train. His arm is going to fall off sometime soon.

Uribe is the worst everyday player in the game? Juan had 20-plus HRs and 70-plus RBIs this season. I wish he would be more consistent, but that's solid production from a No. 8 hitter. He contributed far more to this offense than Anderson did this season. Far more.

Frankly, Juan should be batting ninth in the order. Unfortunately, BA sucks so bad that Uribe is only the second-worst hitter in the everyday lineup.

Craig Grebeck
10-09-2006, 10:27 PM
Guess what? I judge players on what I observe by watching games. Not by what I see on the stat sheet. **** his second-half splits. I don't care. In September, BA was giving us the same poor quality ABs that he gave us the first three months of the year. I don't think he's made much progress at all.

You have to understand that I don't give a squirt a piss about BA's .313 average in the month of July. It's all about run production. BA does not produce runs for this team. He didn't produce runs in any month of the season. Even in July and August when his batting average was respectable, he wasn't adding much to the offense.

He is the stereotypical all-field, no-hit player.
What more could he do in the month of July than hit .313? What if he hit .220 but got a hit that you saw and remember? What did you want him to add to the offense? He can't get RBI when the hitters in front of him ******* suck. He is younger, cheaper, and better defensively than Uribe. This lineup can afford to have one anemic hitter. I'll take Anderson.

I go off more than selective memories and for that I apologize.

Chips
10-09-2006, 10:43 PM
This lineup can afford to have one anemic hitter. I'll take Anderson.

I go off more than selective memories and for that I apologize.

No ****, we don't need to sacrifice defense for a lineup that has nine awesome hitters but can't field routine balls in center.

jenn2080
10-09-2006, 10:57 PM
What more could he do in the month of July than hit .313? What if he hit .220 but got a hit that you saw and remember? What did you want him to add to the offense? He can't get RBI when the hitters in front of him ******* suck. He is younger, cheaper, and better defensively than Uribe. This lineup can afford to have one anemic hitter. I'll take Anderson.

I go off more than selective memories and for that I apologize.


I remember quite a few Brian doubles the second half. I will take a strong defensive player in center then a power hitter. Brian will come around and be solid all around. I would not throw him out yet. He was a rookie for christ sakes. We have stuck by other players we need to stick with Brian.

CLR01
10-09-2006, 11:26 PM
:deadhorse:


The horse is going to be powder before WSI is done with it.

JB98
10-10-2006, 01:40 AM
What more could he do in the month of July than hit .313? What if he hit .220 but got a hit that you saw and remember? What did you want him to add to the offense? He can't get RBI when the hitters in front of him ******* suck. He is younger, cheaper, and better defensively than Uribe. This lineup can afford to have one anemic hitter. I'll take Anderson.

I go off more than selective memories and for that I apologize.

There are hitters in front of Anderson who ****ing suck? Like who? Apparently, you think Uribe sucks. OK, I'll deal with that. But we've had a strong hitter batting seventh all season. Does Joe Crede ****ing suck? AJ bats sixth. Does he ****ing suck too? Dye and Konerko hit fifth all season. Do they ****ing suck? Give me some help here. I'm trying to figure out who ****ing sucks besides BA.

I'm not operating off selective memory at all. I think I watched 161 of the 162 games this season. The one game I missed I listened to on the radio. If BA got a big hit, I saw it. I remember two of them. If there were more, please enlighten me.

And, yes, if BA had hit .220 and knocked in some big runs, I'd be more encouraged about his future. As I've already indicated, I'm a long-time supporter of Joe Crede. I was behind him even when he was hitting .230 because it was a PRODUCTIVE .230. Joe has ALWAYS gotten big hits for this team. And with regard to Uribe, I can tolerate his .230 average because I see some home runs and RBIs being put up. I'm upset with Uribe because, IMO, his defense dropped off this season.

BA hit .220 or whatever this year. He produced little power. He doesn't steal bases. He can't bunt. His RBI total blows considering he plays for the third highest scoring offense in the league. If no one was ever on base, how did we score 868 runs this season? BA should have had 50 RBIs on accident. If Uribe can knock in 70, BA should be able to knock in 50. Did he even get 40? Certainly, with Juan's strikeout total, he left a few runners on base this season. How many of them did BA pick up? Not many, yet I'm supposed to believe that Anderson is the long-term answer in CF because he hit .313 in July and .296 in August.

Craig Grebeck
10-10-2006, 08:13 AM
There are hitters in front of Anderson who ****ing suck? Like who? Apparently, you think Uribe sucks. OK, I'll deal with that. But we've had a strong hitter batting seventh all season. Does Joe Crede ****ing suck? AJ bats sixth. Does he ****ing suck too? Dye and Konerko hit fifth all season. Do they ****ing suck? Give me some help here. I'm trying to figure out who ****ing sucks besides BA.

And, yes, if BA had hit .220 and knocked in some big runs, I'd be more encouraged about his future. As I've already indicated, I'm a long-time supporter of Joe Crede. I was behind him even when he was hitting .230 because it was a PRODUCTIVE .230. Joe has ALWAYS gotten big hits for this team. And with regard to Uribe, I can tolerate his .230 average because I see some home runs and RBIs being put up. I'm upset with Uribe because, IMO, his defense dropped off this season.

BA hit .220 or whatever this year. He produced little power. He doesn't steal bases. He can't bunt. His RBI total blows considering he plays for the third highest scoring offense in the league. If no one was ever on base, how did we score 868 runs this season? BA should have had 50 RBIs on accident. If Uribe can knock in 70, BA should be able to knock in 50. Did he even get 40? Certainly, with Juan's strikeout total, he left a few runners on base this season. How many of them did BA pick up? Not many, yet I'm supposed to believe that Anderson is the long-term answer in CF because he hit .313 in July and .296 in August.
Uribe is a terrible hitter, just terrible. For his production he shouldn't make half of what he is scheduled to. AJP was AWFUL in the second half. That is what I was alluding to. Uribe's second half OBP- .248 AJP's second half OBP- .292.

Anderson rarely had an opportunity to knock anyone in because he had two horrible hitters ahead of him.

I'm not operating off selective memory at all. I think I watched 161 of the 162 games this season. The one game I missed I listened to on the radio. If BA got a big hit, I saw it. I remember two of them. If there were more, please enlighten me.

I'd be beyond impressed if you could remember every one of BA's at bats and their significance to the ballgame.

So, just by going off of your theories on baseball, you wouldn't take AROD because his hits aren't meaningful enough?

jenn2080
10-10-2006, 08:19 AM
There are hitters in front of Anderson who ****ing suck? Like who? Apparently, you think Uribe sucks. OK, I'll deal with that. But we've had a strong hitter batting seventh all season. Does Joe Crede ****ing suck? AJ bats sixth. Does he ****ing suck too? Dye and Konerko hit fifth all season. Do they ****ing suck? Give me some help here. I'm trying to figure out who ****ing sucks besides BA.

I'm not operating off selective memory at all. I think I watched 161 of the 162 games this season. The one game I missed I listened to on the radio. If BA got a big hit, I saw it. I remember two of them. If there were more, please enlighten me.

And, yes, if BA had hit .220 and knocked in some big runs, I'd be more encouraged about his future. As I've already indicated, I'm a long-time supporter of Joe Crede. I was behind him even when he was hitting .230 because it was a PRODUCTIVE .230. Joe has ALWAYS gotten big hits for this team. And with regard to Uribe, I can tolerate his .230 average because I see some home runs and RBIs being put up. I'm upset with Uribe because, IMO, his defense dropped off this season.

BA hit .220 or whatever this year. He produced little power. He doesn't steal bases. He can't bunt. His RBI total blows considering he plays for the third highest scoring offense in the league. If no one was ever on base, how did we score 868 runs this season? BA should have had 50 RBIs on accident. If Uribe can knock in 70, BA should be able to knock in 50. Did he even get 40? Certainly, with Juan's strikeout total, he left a few runners on base this season. How many of them did BA pick up? Not many, yet I'm supposed to believe that Anderson is the long-term answer in CF because he hit .313 in July and .296 in August.


Brian is a rookie! Saying he should have 40+ RBIs is unreal. If after next season he is still having issues at the plate which he was not having that many toward the end of the season then maybe hold a bit of concern, but throwing in the towel already is lame:rolleyes:

Jaffar
10-10-2006, 09:00 AM
And, yes, if BA had hit .220 and knocked in some big runs, I'd be more encouraged about his future. As I've already indicated, I'm a long-time supporter of Joe Crede. I was behind him even when he was hitting .230 because it was a PRODUCTIVE .230. Joe has ALWAYS gotten big hits for this team. And with regard to Uribe, I can tolerate his .230 average because I see some home runs and RBIs being put up. I'm upset with Uribe because, IMO, his defense dropped off this season.


Joe Crede
2004-runners on-231 AB-57 rbi-.234 avg-.289 obp
2004-man on 3rd,< 2out-24 AB-24 rbi-.458 avg-.419 obp

Brian Anderson
2006-runners on-144 AB-28 rbi-.229 avg-.309 obp
2006-man on 3rd,< 2out-17 AB-16 rbi-.353 avg-.391 obp

southside rocks
10-10-2006, 09:07 AM
Well, CLR is right, the horse is halfway to powder already -- that made me laff -- but from the Sox website, this:

I don't think Anderson will be actively shopped, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was included as part of a package deal. To be honest, I don't believe Anderson would be surprised either.
Take away the last couple of weeks in September, and Anderson was a very solid hitter in the second half. Of course, you don't get a do-over for first-half struggles, and Anderson will have to produce better at-bats in Spring Training to prove himself once again. Center field was his job to lose last March, but that same situation will not play out in 2007.

Link: http://tinyurl.com/pes5n

I have friends who work at the park, and friends who have friends, etc., and the word floating around about Anderson, after this season, is 'he gone.' It will be interesting to see if my friends and friends of friends have a clue, if they're right on this one.

I'm sure it all depends on who they can get for him. The Sox won't dump BA just to get rid of him, but as part of a trade for, oh, Carl Crawford ... you never know. :wink:

ondafarm
10-10-2006, 09:11 AM
:deadhorse:


The horse is going to be powder before WSI is done with it.

Apologies for wasting my share of electrons on it.

ChiSoxLifer
10-10-2006, 12:36 PM
Why the heck don't the Sox just offer a butt load of money to whoever is in charge of the Marlins minor league system? I think that would be easier than trying to pry Cabrera and Willis from the Marlins. The White Sox have some decent players coming in but haven't really had any great drafts since the late 80s/early 90s. There's a lot of talent to be found after the second round and it just doesn't look like the Sox have excelled in that area.

JB98
10-10-2006, 02:53 PM
Brian is a rookie! Saying he should have 40+ RBIs is unreal. If after next season he is still having issues at the plate which he was not having that many toward the end of the season then maybe hold a bit of concern, but throwing in the towel already is lame:rolleyes:

Brian had roughly 400 plate appearances this year. Do you think it's unrealistic for me to expect him to knock in one run per 10 plate appearances? I don't think that's unrealistic at all. We're talking about 40 measly ****ing RBIs here. Pods did that, and almost everyone here agrees that Scott had a horrible season.

All you BA people are selling hope, not facts. "Don't worry. Brian is just a rookie. He'll come around. Etc., etc., etc." What if he doesn't? Keep in mind 2006 was not a development year for the organization, and 2007 won't be either. WE WILL BE TRYING TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES NEXT YEAR, not trying to develop young talent.

With the stated goal of trying to win it all in 2007, do you want to go into the year with a CF who bats .220, supplies little power, doesn't steal bases and can't bunt? I don't.

If Anderson and Mackowiak are getting all the starts in CF next season, we're in trouble. Thank God for Jermaine Dye's career year. Without that, we would have had the least productive offensive outfield in all of baseball this year.

JB98
10-10-2006, 02:57 PM
Joe Crede
2004-runners on-231 AB-57 rbi-.234 avg-.289 obp
2004-man on 3rd,< 2out-24 AB-24 rbi-.458 avg-.419 obp

Brian Anderson
2006-runners on-144 AB-28 rbi-.229 avg-.309 obp
2006-man on 3rd,< 2out-17 AB-16 rbi-.353 avg-.391 obp

I think Crede's numbers are superior.

CLR01
10-10-2006, 03:04 PM
WE WILL BE TRYING TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES NEXT YEAR, not trying to develop young talent.


And yet you wouldn't be against Sweeney starting in centerfield next year. :rolleyes:

socko82
10-10-2006, 05:16 PM
I never said that, but it's ridiculous to judge a player based on hits you remember.

He drove in 33 runs in 406 plate appearances. If he could bunt or steal a base that would be something, but he couldn't. It was beyond pathetic. Here's a list of his RBI's, please point out all the big hits that people just don't remember.

4/2 - drove in runs #8 & 9 in 10-4 win
4/21-drove in run #6 in 7-1 win
4/23- solo homer for run #7 in 7-3 win
4/24 -9th inning homer to tie game *BIG HIT*
4/28- bases loaded walk in 8-5 win
5/6 - solo homer in 9-2 win
5/10 - 3 run homer with Sox losing 6-0
5/20- sac fly in 7-0 win
6/2 -rbi ground out in 4-3 loss
6/11- 3 run homer with Sox losing 10-2
6/16- drove in run #8 in 12-4 win
6/20- 2 rbi's in 20-6 win
7/4- drove in runs 6 & 7 in 13-0 win
7/16- sac fly with Sox losing 6-2
7/24- two run homer with Sox losing 7-2
7/29- drove in run #5 in 13-11 win
8/1- drove in run #7 in 7-5 win
8/12- down 3-1, 2 run single to tie game, Sox win 4-3 *BIG HIT*
8/13- drove in run #7 in 7-3 win
8/14- 2 run homer with Sox up 8-0
8/29- drove in run #9 in 12-9 win
9/24 -solo HR in 12-7

That's 2 rbi's from 8/15 to the end of the year. Oh yeah, according to his apologists that's AJ's and Uribe's fault. Even with all of that I thought he should have played more in '06 because he was the best option we had out there. I just hope we've got better options (like a real major league center fielder) next year if the goal is to win the '07 World Series.

JB98
10-10-2006, 07:29 PM
And yet you wouldn't be against Sweeney starting in centerfield next year. :rolleyes:

I'd rather go with a complete unknown than play somebody who I know for a fact sucks.

JB98
10-10-2006, 07:31 PM
He drove in 33 runs in 406 plate appearances. If he could bunt or steal a base that would be something, but he couldn't. It was beyond pathetic. Here's a list of his RBI's, please point out all the big hits that people just don't remember.

4/2 - drove in runs #8 & 9 in 10-4 win
4/21-drove in run #6 in 7-1 win
4/23- solo homer for run #7 in 7-3 win
4/24 -9th inning homer to tie game *BIG HIT*
4/28- bases loaded walk in 8-5 win
5/6 - solo homer in 9-2 win
5/10 - 3 run homer with Sox losing 6-0
5/20- sac fly in 7-0 win
6/2 -rbi ground out in 4-3 loss
6/11- 3 run homer with Sox losing 10-2
6/16- drove in run #8 in 12-4 win
6/20- 2 rbi's in 20-6 win
7/4- drove in runs 6 & 7 in 13-0 win
7/16- sac fly with Sox losing 6-2
7/24- two run homer with Sox losing 7-2
7/29- drove in run #5 in 13-11 win
8/1- drove in run #7 in 7-5 win
8/12- down 3-1, 2 run single to tie game, Sox win 4-3 *BIG HIT*
8/13- drove in run #7 in 7-3 win
8/14- 2 run homer with Sox up 8-0
8/29- drove in run #9 in 12-9 win
9/24 -solo HR in 12-7

That's 2 rbi's from 8/15 to the end of the year. Oh yeah, according to his apologists that's AJ's and Uribe's fault. Even with all of that I thought he should have played more in '06 because he was the best option we had out there. I just hope we've got better options (like a real major league center fielder) next year if the goal is to win the '07 World Series.

Just like I said: Two big hits all year. Silly me and my selective memory. :rolleyes:

Brian26
10-10-2006, 08:31 PM
He drove in 33 runs in 406 plate appearances. If he could bunt or steal a base that would be something, but he couldn't. It was beyond pathetic. Here's a list of his RBI's, please point out all the big hits that people just don't remember.

4/2 - drove in runs #8 & 9 in 10-4 win
4/21-drove in run #6 in 7-1 win
4/23- solo homer for run #7 in 7-3 win
4/24 -9th inning homer to tie game *BIG HIT*
4/28- bases loaded walk in 8-5 win
5/6 - solo homer in 9-2 win
5/10 - 3 run homer with Sox losing 6-0
5/20- sac fly in 7-0 win
6/2 -rbi ground out in 4-3 loss
6/11- 3 run homer with Sox losing 10-2
6/16- drove in run #8 in 12-4 win
6/20- 2 rbi's in 20-6 win
7/4- drove in runs 6 & 7 in 13-0 win
7/16- sac fly with Sox losing 6-2
7/24- two run homer with Sox losing 7-2
7/29- drove in run #5 in 13-11 win
8/1- drove in run #7 in 7-5 win
8/12- down 3-1, 2 run single to tie game, Sox win 4-3 *BIG HIT*
8/13- drove in run #7 in 7-3 win
8/14- 2 run homer with Sox up 8-0
8/29- drove in run #9 in 12-9 win
9/24 -solo HR in 12-7

That's 2 rbi's from 8/15 to the end of the year. Oh yeah, according to his apologists that's AJ's and Uribe's fault. Even with all of that I thought he should have played more in '06 because he was the best option we had out there. I just hope we've got better options (like a real major league center fielder) next year if the goal is to win the '07 World Series.

I'm not taking sides on this one, but you deserve kudos for doing that much research to list all of those hits and the game outcomes. Nice work!

ondafarm
10-10-2006, 10:03 PM
4/2 - drove in runs #8 & 9 in 10-4 win
4/21-drove in run #6 in 7-1 win
4/23- solo homer for run #7 in 7-3 win
4/24 -9th inning homer to tie game *BIG HIT*
4/28- bases loaded walk in 8-5 win
5/6 - solo homer in 9-2 win
5/10 - 3 run homer with Sox losing 6-0
5/20- sac fly in 7-0 win
6/2 -rbi ground out in 4-3 loss
6/11- 3 run homer with Sox losing 10-2
6/16- drove in run #8 in 12-4 win
6/20- 2 rbi's in 20-6 win
7/4- drove in runs 6 & 7 in 13-0 win
7/16- sac fly with Sox losing 6-2
7/24- two run homer with Sox losing 7-2
7/29- drove in run #5 in 13-11 win
8/1- drove in run #7 in 7-5 win
8/12- down 3-1, 2 run single to tie game, Sox win 4-3 *BIG HIT*
8/13- drove in run #7 in 7-3 win
8/14- 2 run homer with Sox up 8-0
8/29- drove in run #9 in 12-9 win
9/24 -solo HR in 12-7

The 4/28 rbi started the Sox scoring when they were behind and was with two outs.

The 5/6 homer was in a 1-0 situation and was an important early run.

The 5/20 RBI was the game's first run.

The 6/2 RBI put the Sox in front 3-2, a lead that was blown innings later.

The first of his two RBIs on 6/20 tied the game and was the first Sox run.

That is five more big hits just from checking a few of your reports.

Man, if you are going to dis a guy, at least do solid work and pull up reasonable states. I'd say you've proven your memory is selective.

JB98
10-10-2006, 10:09 PM
The 4/28 rbi started the Sox scoring when they were behind and was with two outs.

The 5/6 homer was in a 1-0 situation and was an important early run.

The 5/20 RBI was the game's first run.

The 6/2 RBI put the Sox in front 3-2, a lead that was blown innings later.

The first of his two RBIs on 6/20 tied the game and was the first Sox run.

That is five more big hits just from checking a few of your reports.

Man, if you are going to dis a guy, at least do solid work and pull up reasonable states. I'd say you've proven your memory is selective.

So, a bases-loaded walk, a sacrifice fly and a ground ball qualify as big hits now? :D:

Frater Perdurabo
10-10-2006, 10:38 PM
Podsednik deserved scorn this year because in addition to being bad at the plate for long stretches, he also played his typically poor defense (only his speed allowed him to compensate for poor reads and poor routes) with his typically poor arm.

Anderson at least brought excellent, Gold Glove-caliber defense to a very important defensive position.

In addition, Pods is a VETERAN who we should expect to produce better numbers.

Anderson was a ROOKIE playing in his first full major league season.

Cut the guy some slack already.

In addition, with Pods' struggles, what kind of incentive did opposing pitchers have to actually throw good pitches to Anderson?

At the start of the year, KW and Ozzie told Brian he would bat ninth and would be expected to play good defense in CF because the rest of the lineup would be able to carry him.

When Anderson was at his worst at the plate (April-June), the Sox had the best or second-best record in the majors.

Anderson heated in mid-June, but the rest of the Sox offense (other than Dye and Konerko) started to sputter.

RBIs are as much more of a function of who gets on base in front than what the player in question does with the stick. The usual #5 hitter, Dye, koncked himself in via the homer over 40 times (same with Paulie when he batted fifth). AJ started hot but fizzled in the second half. Crede fizzled at the end, and many of his hits were homers. Widger and Alomar were terrible. Other than his homers (after which, obviously, Anderson would not be able to collect an RBI other than by a solo homer!), Uribe sucked.

Therefore, during the months when Anderson was hot, the hitters hitting in front of him didn't get on base as much as they did when Anderson had his struggles! Coupled with getting benched in favor of Mackowiak's dreadful defense, Anderson had far fewer RBI opportunities than one might think!

A team that relies on its #9 hitter to produce runs has big problems.

IowaSox1971
10-11-2006, 12:29 AM
Anderson had a bad season. For people to say his lack of offense didn't hurt us is crazy.

How many big hits has Inge come up with for the Tigers this season? The Twins' ninth hitter (whether it be Punto, Bartlett or Tyner) was a thorn in just about every opponent's side. And Cano hit .342 while batting ninth for the Yankees. Even Scutaro had four RBIs for Oakland in a playoff victory last week. Yet, we're supposed to be happy with Anderson batting .225 and getting two key hits in one season?

You need a BALANCED lineup to win in the American League. Too often this season, we had Uribe, Anderson and Podsednik coming up consecutively, and that basically gave the opposing pitcher a breather while putting more pressure on the middle of our lineup.

There's no rule against Anderson coming up with a key 3-run homer now and then. Even a key solo shot can help. It would have helped us a lot to have Anderson step up a little in September, when guys like Thome, Konerko, Dye and Crede were playing at less than 100 percent health-wise, but he didn't do it. Instead, he regressed. And as the season wore on, Anderson's defense seemed to slip a bit as well. Catches he made in the first half weren't being made in the second half. And he rarely seemed to throw out any opposing base runners.

Anderson didn't hit homers, didn't steal bases, didn't hit for average, didn't run the bases well and rarely had good situational at-bats. He also had a lousy September. For most of the season, he hit worse than some pitchers do. Add all those things up, and I see no reason why he shouldn't be blamed big-time for our inability to make the playoffs. If he had hit just .250 with 55 RBIs this season, our postseason chances would have improved tremendously.

Yes, there is a chance he might one day be a productive hitter. But he didn't show me much this season.

Beautox
10-11-2006, 12:57 AM
Joe Crede
2004-runners on-231 AB-57 rbi-.234 avg-.289 obp
2004-man on 3rd,< 2out-24 AB-24 rbi-.458 avg-.419 obp

Brian Anderson
2006-runners on-144 AB-28 rbi-.229 avg-.309 obp
2006-man on 3rd,< 2out-17 AB-16 rbi-.353 avg-.391 obp

Thanks for digging that up, Brian isn't going to be a HOFer but he is going to be a very solid cheap ball player for a while, just stick with the kid.

ondafarm
10-11-2006, 01:59 AM
Anderson had a bad season. For people to say his lack of offense didn't hurt us is crazy.

How many big hits has Inge come up with for the Tigers this season? The Twins' ninth hitter (whether it be Punto, Bartlett or Tyner) was a thorn in just about every opponent's side. And Cano hit .342 while batting ninth for the Yankees. Even Scutaro had four RBIs for Oakland in a playoff victory last week. Yet, we're supposed to be happy with Anderson batting .225 and getting two key hits in one season?

You need a BALANCED lineup to win in the American League. Too often this season, we had Uribe, Anderson and Podsednik coming up consecutively, and that basically gave the opposing pitcher a breather while putting more pressure on the middle of our lineup.

There's no rule against Anderson coming up with a key 3-run homer now and then. Even a key solo shot can help. It would have helped us a lot to have Anderson step up a little in September, when guys like Thome, Konerko, Dye and Crede were playing at less than 100 percent health-wise, but he didn't do it. Instead, he regressed. And as the season wore on, Anderson's defense seemed to slip a bit as well. Catches he made in the first half weren't being made in the second half. And he rarely seemed to throw out any opposing base runners.

Anderson didn't hit homers, didn't steal bases, didn't hit for average, didn't run the bases well and rarely had good situational at-bats. He also had a lousy September. For most of the season, he hit worse than some pitchers do. Add all those things up, and I see no reason why he shouldn't be blamed big-time for our inability to make the playoffs. If he had hit just .250 with 55 RBIs this season, our postseason chances would have improved tremendously.

Yes, there is a chance he might one day be a productive hitter. But he didn't show me much this season.

If you are blaming the #9 hitter for offensive woes then you really need to re-consider your strategy. The White Sox had plenty of offense this season. Thier starting pitching and their defense, especially when Mack played CF hurt them.

Anderson had a not good year offensively. His year defensively was pretty good though. We'll see how productive he'll be next season.

Frater Perdurabo
10-11-2006, 07:56 AM
It's stupid, frankly, to blame Anderson for not producing like a veteran.

Outside of the Yankess and their $200 million payroll, every other team has to be able to develop and promote players from within their own organization.

Sometimes that means sticking with a promising but struggling rookie. There's no wat to find out if someone is good until you let them play, and let them get at least 500 ABs in the MLB.

socko82
10-11-2006, 04:07 PM
Question for all the BA apologists. Say Brian was drafted and developed by any other team in MLB and had the exact same season in '06 for that team.

Then say we had any of the centerfielders who are either free agents or reportedly available playing for us last year. Coco Crisp, Brady Clark, Gary Matthews Jr, Juan Pierre, Jim Edmonds or Willie Tavarez. That's not even counting the high end guys who might be available, Vernon Wells or Andrew Jones.

Now say Kenny Williams announced he letting the old guy go because he thought he could do better and then presented you with Brian Anderson. Would you be on here hailing it as great move, raving about how the team was improved and nominating Kenny for executive of the year?

Sorry, he's a AAAA fourth outfielder and this team can do better.

CLR01
10-11-2006, 04:18 PM
Question for all the BA apologists. Say Brian was drafted and developed by any other team in MLB and had the exact same season in '06 for that team.

Then say we had any of the centerfielders who are either free agents or reportedly available playing for us last year. Coco Crisp, Brady Clark, Gary Matthews Jr, Juan Pierre, Jim Edmonds or Willie Tavarez. That's not even counting the high end guys who might be available, Vernon Wells or Andrew Jones.

Now say Kenny Williams announced he letting the old guy go because he thought he could do better and then presented you with Brian Anderson. Would you be on here hailing it as great move, raving about how the team was improved and nominating Kenny for executive of the year?

Sorry, he's a AAAA fourth outfielder and this team can do better.


Jesus Christ who the hell has hailed bringing Anderson in to play center a great move or nominated Kenny Williams executive of the year for it? Did you read the threads or just pull this stuff out of your ass like Ozzie did with Anderson's at bats vs Bonderman? :rolleyes:

As for the rest we didn't have one of those guys we had Aaron Rowand starting in center and Anderson waiting in the minors to take his spot so why throw out bull**** scenarios?

oeo
10-11-2006, 04:22 PM
Question for all the BA apologists. Say Brian was drafted and developed by any other team in MLB and had the exact same season in '06 for that team.

Then say we had any of the centerfielders who are either free agents or reportedly available playing for us last year. Coco Crisp, Brady Clark, Gary Matthews Jr, Juan Pierre, Jim Edmonds or Willie Tavarez. That's not even counting the high end guys who might be available, Vernon Wells or Andrew Jones.

Now say Kenny Williams announced he letting the old guy go because he thought he could do better and then presented you with Brian Anderson. Would you be on here hailing it as great move, raving about how the team was improved and nominating Kenny for executive of the year?

Sorry, he's a AAAA fourth outfielder and this team can do better.

This isn't the same situation at all. Let's say we have so and so and replaced him with BA? Sorry, but we don't have any of those guys, it's totally different.

ondafarm
10-11-2006, 09:15 PM
Question for all the BA apologists. Say Brian was drafted and developed by any other team in MLB and had the exact same season in '06 for that team.

Then say we had any of the centerfielders who are either free agents or reportedly available playing for us last year. Coco Crisp, Brady Clark, Gary Matthews Jr, Juan Pierre, Jim Edmonds or Willie Tavarez. That's not even counting the high end guys who might be available, Vernon Wells or Andrew Jones.

Now say Kenny Williams announced he letting the old guy go because he thought he could do better and then presented you with Brian Anderson. Would you be on here hailing it as great move, raving about how the team was improved and nominating Kenny for executive of the year?

Sorry, he's a AAAA fourth outfielder and this team can do better.

This isn't the same situation at all. Nobody here is so stupid they'd take your bait on this one.

Then again, I'm sure you'd have dumped Crede, Ventura, Black Jack and a host of other guys who didn't burn up the league their first year.

SoxFan64
10-12-2006, 12:38 AM
Then again, I'm sure you'd have dumped Crede, Ventura, Black Jack and a host of other guys who didn't burn up the league their first year.

I with you on this one. KW has two goals -- to be a consistent winner and to not get too old all at once -- so he will need to take chances on some young players. Our scenerio is different than when Rowand, Crede and Garland came up where they were given much more time to develop.

Anderson, Fields, Sweeney and all other minor leaguers will have a shorter leash when playing for the Sox. But they will (and must) be given time to develop.

I think too many people hear are making decisions based on managing their fantasy team and are proposing trades and new faces that are not in the long-term interest of the club.

Keep BA in CF. Then again if there is a trade out there that makes sense to KW and it includes Anderson then he will make it. Short of a great deal for us, I think we will see BA starting 2007 in CF for us.

PS: This horse is dead. Should we start ... continue ...the beating of Pods?

mcp5185
10-12-2006, 01:23 AM
Question for all the BA apologists. Say Brian was drafted and developed by any other team in MLB and had the exact same season in '06 for that team.

Then say we had any of the centerfielders who are either free agents or reportedly available playing for us last year. Coco Crisp, Brady Clark, Gary Matthews Jr, Juan Pierre, Jim Edmonds or Willie Tavarez. That's not even counting the high end guys who might be available, Vernon Wells or Andrew Jones.

Now say Kenny Williams announced he letting the old guy go because he thought he could do better and then presented you with Brian Anderson. Would you be on here hailing it as great move, raving about how the team was improved and nominating Kenny for executive of the year?

Sorry, he's a AAAA fourth outfielder and this team can do better.

I would take Anderson over the 33 year old Brady Clark who is a career .278 hitter. However this year in 50 more at bats hit .263, had 4 less hrs, 4 less rbis, 9 less doubles, and plays worse defense in cf than Brian.

Although Edmonds has been a great player he turns 37 next year and he was injured for a good portion of this year and still doesn't look quite right in the playoffs. Not to mention he made over 11 million this year and would cost a hell of a lot more than Brian.

At 32 Gary Matthews Jr. had a career year and big surprise it was in his contract year. He is a career .263 hitter who had never hit over .276 in six prior seasons. He will also command a lot of money.

I wouldn't mind Tavarez but he is another guy with a lot more ABs than Brian (164 to be exact) with less hrs, rbis, doubles. I'm not to sure about his defense however.

I was disappointed by Brian's season this year but like others have said he was a rookie. IMO our pitching is a much greater need, and I would much rather address LF or SS and give Brian and Sweeney a shot in CF. However if the right deal came along for either Crisp, Taveras, or someone like Carl Crawford I would leave CF alone. I would take Brady Clark as a 4th of and I have seen him play many times living in Wisconsin. I would go no where near Matthews or Edmonds. They will cost too much and I would rather spend that money on pitching or for re-signing some of our own guys. I would only want Pierre to replace Pods in LF, I don't want Pierre and his noodle arm in center next year.

I realize that wasn't exactly what you were asking but the guys you listed, are basically our options to replace Anderson in center.

Sox-o-matic
10-12-2006, 01:30 AM
I would take Anderson over the 33 year old Brady Clark who is a career .278 hitter. However this year in 50 more at bats hit .263, had 4 less hrs, 4 less rbis, 9 less doubles, and plays worse defense in cf than Brian.

Although Edmonds has been a great player he turns 37 next year and he was injured for a good portion of this year and still doesn't look quite right in the playoffs. Not to mention he made over 11 million this year and would cost a hell of a lot more than Brian.

At 32 Gary Matthews Jr. had a career year and big surprise it was in his contract year. He is a career .263 hitter who had never hit over .276 in six prior seasons. He will also command a lot of money.

I wouldn't mind Tavarez but he is another guy with a lot more ABs than Brian (164 to be exact) with less hrs, rbis, doubles. I'm not to sure about his defense however.

I was disappointed by Brian's season this year but like others have said he was a rookie. IMO our pitching is a much greater need, and I would much rather address LF or SS and give Brian and Sweeney a shot in CF. However if the right deal came along for either Crisp, Taveras, or someone like Carl Crawford I would leave CF alone. I would take Brady Clark as a 4th of and I have seen him play many times living in Wisconsin. I would go no where near Matthews or Edmonds. They will cost too much and I would rather spend that money on pitching or for re-signing some of our own guys. I would only want Pierre to replace Pods in LF, I don't want Pierre and his noodle arm in center next year.

I realize that wasn't exactly what you were asking but the guys you listed, are basically our options to replace Anderson in center.

Amen.

I've been saying this for a long time now. Brady Clark is not a CF. Obtaining Brady Clark to be anything more than a 4th OF is a stupid mistake.

BTW, right on about these other guys (Pierre, Taveras, Crisp, etc.) as LF. If they are here to replace Pods, fine, but they have no buisness in our CF when we have Brian. Pods + Anderson >>> Pierre + Clark.