PDA

View Full Version : The two pitchers that will get us back on track in 2007 are...


veeter
10-05-2006, 02:43 PM
The first is, obviously, Mark Buehrle returning to form. The other, IMO, is Charlie Haeger. I think he'll play a prominent role in the pen and as a spot starter. I feel that he is going to be not o.k, not good, ...but VERY good.

soxchick20
10-05-2006, 02:55 PM
definitely agree. Buehrle's got to get it together and start dominating again. Can't wait to see Haeger either.

Baby Fisk
10-05-2006, 03:08 PM
Buehrle and Contreras returning to 2005 form -- that gets the Sox back on track in a big way.

BigPapaPump
10-05-2006, 03:11 PM
Do you really think they will give Haeger a shot? I think it will be hard for Kenny and Ozzie to pull the trigger on him, isn't it a known fact that the knuckle ball doesn't move very well in the dry Arizona heat. I see him maybe getting a bullpen spot or getting some more time in Triple-A before getting called up. But I do believe he will be a star for the Sox sometime soon in the future. :bandance:

veeter
10-05-2006, 03:25 PM
Do you really think they will give Haeger a shot? I think it will be hard for Kenny and Ozzie to pull the trigger on him, isn't it a known fact that the knuckle ball doesn't move very well in the dry Arizona heat. I see him maybe getting a bullpen spot or getting some more time in Triple-A before getting called up. But I do believe he will be a star for the Sox sometime soon in the future. :bandance:Kenny and Ozzie saw what he can do in Chicago, where it counts. The guy is poised and confident. I felt way more comfortable with him on the mound than any pitcher except Freddy down the stretch. I think he'll make an impact in 2007.

23Ventura
10-05-2006, 03:31 PM
Buerhle will get back on track and McCarthy will have a great year as well. (the others won't be too bad either)

Patrick134
10-05-2006, 04:20 PM
Knuckleballers are usually maddening because when it's not knuckling, it's getting hammered.

buehrle4cy05
10-05-2006, 05:09 PM
If Haeger shows in Spring Training that he's throwing his knuckleball consistently, then he has to warrant consideration for a rotation spot. If Garcia/Vazquez gets traded in the offseason, then you're still going into ST with 6 guys battling for 5 spots- Buehrle, Garland, Contreras, Vazquez/Garcia, McCarthy, and Haeger. Who knows, maybe Broadway will even make a run at the rotation, but that's a longshot. Either way, hopefully the fact that no spot is guarenteed in the rotation will light a fire under some of the pitchers.

Lip Man 1
10-05-2006, 05:26 PM
The difficulty any knuckleballer in Arizona faces is the 'light air.' Breaking balls and off speed pitches just don't have the 'bite' that they do in heavier air making judgements difficult.

Lip

October26
10-05-2006, 05:28 PM
Knuckleballers are usually maddening because when it's not knuckling, it's getting hammered.

You hit the nail right on the head. I saw Haeger pitch like a wild man earlier in the year (I think it was it in the Spring but I can't remember right now) and then he comes back in September and is lights out. Which Haeger are we going to see next year?

As a Sox fan, of course I want to see him pitch in '07 like he did in Sept '06, but the key for him is controlling that knuckle ball. Maybe Charlie can hang out with Tim Wakefield over the Winter? Just a thought.

eastchicagosoxfan
10-05-2006, 07:03 PM
Mark Buerhle and a righty in the pen. I originally thought Cotts, but Thorton can pick up the slack. The Sox need a reliable righty as a set-up man.

Myrtle72
10-05-2006, 08:03 PM
Either way, hopefully the fact that no spot is guarenteed in the rotation will light a fire under some of the pitchers.

Exactly. They need some competition, or even risk, involved here. That will definately have an impact on their game.

SluggersAway
10-05-2006, 11:39 PM
If MB and JC can get back on track, we will be okay.

If not, it will be a very interesting season.

TheKittle
10-06-2006, 12:55 AM
If MB and JC can get back on track, we will be okay.

If not, it will be a very interesting season.

If not MB will have to find something else to bitch and cry about. Let's see he's already used the Rangers cheating, Questec, and the umpires. I notice that ****ing crybaby never mentions the gutless, crybaby he sees in the mirror everyday.

ShoelessJoeS
10-06-2006, 01:24 AM
Buehrle and Contreras returning to 2005 form -- that gets the Sox back on track in a big way.:yup:

veeter
10-06-2006, 06:16 AM
If not MB will have to find something else to bitch and cry about. Let's see he's already used the Rangers cheating, Questec, and the umpires. I notice that ****ing crybaby never mentions the gutless, crybaby he sees in the mirror everyday.I completely disagree with this, but I like the fire.

PeoriaSoxFan
10-06-2006, 06:40 AM
How about Barry Zito? Trade someone we have in our blockbuster Carl Crawford deal and then sign Zito. So simple. I did read on one website that Florida has interest in Brian Anderson.

Thome25
10-06-2006, 07:47 AM
Buehrle returning to form and Dontrelle Willis

Thome25
10-06-2006, 07:52 AM
How about Barry Zito? Trade someone we have in our blockbuster Carl Crawford deal and then sign Zito. So simple. I did read on one website that Florida has interest in Brian Anderson.

Zito WILL NOT play for the White Sox. His agent is Scott Boras. When was the last time The Sox signed a Boras client off the FA market?

When was the last time the Sox kept one of their own FAs that was a Boras client? (and wasn't arbitration eligible.)

'Nuff said. Zito has the wrong agent and will be too expensive in the offseason anyway.

Besides, JR and KW have a policy of not signing pitchers to anything more than 3 year contacts due to injury concerns. Zito will want more than a 3 year deal.

Thome25
10-06-2006, 08:00 AM
If not MB will have to find something else to bitch and cry about. Let's see he's already used the Rangers cheating, Questec, and the umpires. I notice that ****ing crybaby never mentions the gutless, crybaby he sees in the mirror everyday.

I believe that "gutless crybaby" has given us alot of good years and deserves your respect.

Oh and one other thing, He was a major reason we won it all in 2005 so he deserves your praise and respect.

Maybe YOU should look in the mirror?

AuroraSoxFan
10-06-2006, 08:24 AM
If not MB will have to find something else to bitch and cry about. Let's see he's already used the Rangers cheating, Questec, and the umpires. I notice that ****ing crybaby never mentions the gutless, crybaby he sees in the mirror everyday.

Damn! So I take it you will not be lining up to get his autograph at Sox Fest? I was not happy with the way he pitched in the 2nd half or his excuses either. But he has put in a lot of solid seasons for us so far. He does deserve a shot to redeem himself. If he does not get back on track in 07 then we may have to write him off. But at least give the guy a chance.

AuroraSoxFan
10-06-2006, 08:28 AM
How about Barry Zito? Trade someone we have in our blockbuster Carl Crawford deal and then sign Zito. So simple. I did read on one website that Florida has interest in Brian Anderson.

The idea is way simple. And anyone would want him in a Sox jersey. But he'll want more $$ than the Sox can spend. And he will be in some serious demand. It sucks, but I see him either staying in OAK or on BOS/NYY. STL may make a run at him too.

ws05champs
10-06-2006, 09:29 AM
isn't it a known fact that the knuckle ball doesn't move very well in the dry Arizona heat. I see him maybe getting a bullpen spot

Knuckleballers are usually maddening because when it's not knuckling, it's getting hammered.

That's why using Haeger in the bullpen is a good idea. You can bring him in when the atmospheric conditions give an advantage to his knuckleball. If he is a starter, he has to be used on the day he is scheduled regardless of what the weather is like.

Lillian
10-06-2006, 09:47 AM
If Haeger can make the grade, as a Major Leaguer, he would be invaluable.
He'd be a young pitcher, who would be very inexpensive, for the next 5 years. Moreover, he could pitch once every three days, which would afford the Sox the luxury of using only four starters. Think of the money they could save!!! If they only needed four starters, and two of them were young, and inexpensive, like McCarthy and Haeger, there would be a lot of money left over to beef up the Bullpen, and whatever other holes needed filling.

The thought is very intriguing. Just how good he will be, is anyone's guess, but apparently a few people who should have a pretty good idea, are quite optimistic. Charlie Hough, for one, thinks he's going to be very good.

I like the idea of having him start, much more than having in the pen.
What do you all think?

the gooch
10-06-2006, 10:03 AM
If Haeger can make the grade, as a Major Leaguer, he would be invaluable.
He'd be a young pitcher, who would be very inexpensive, for the next 5 years. Moreover, he could pitch once every three days, which would afford the Sox the luxury of using only four starters. Think of the money they could save!!! If they only needed four starters, and two of them were young, and inexpensive, like McCarthy and Haeger, there would be a lot of money left over to beef up the Bullpen, and whatever other holes needed filling.

The thought is very intriguing. Just how good he will be, is anyone's guess, but apparently a few people who should have a pretty good idea, are quite optimistic. Charlie Hough, for one, thinks he's going to be very good.

I like the idea of having him start, much more than having in the pen.
What do you all think?
Four starters? If Haeger would happen to go down we would need two more starters to fill out the rotation. no thanks.

Bullpen is the best option for him, for now. If he becomes lights out, he can be considered for a starting position.

Frater Perdurabo
10-06-2006, 10:27 AM
I prefer Haeger in the pen, at least for now.

If a starter falters early in the game, bring in Haeger. If he gets through one inning unscathed, bring him in for another. If he pitches well in his second inning, give him a third. In fact, leave him in as long as he is effective.

There will be times when he just can't get his knuckler to dance, and he will get shelled. There will be other times when he can't get it over the plate, and he'll walk a bunch of guys. On those occasions the Sox will need to bring in another reliever. But that's what Ozzie does anyway; if a reliever isn't effective, he brings in someone else.

Haeger's value is in his ability to pitch multiple innings on consecutive days if needed, which can save the rest of the pen and pay dividends over a long season. The rest of the pen would be used/exposed less and therefore would be more effective.

Furthermore, if Thornton, MacDougal or Jenks come in after Haeger, their 95+ fastballs will look like 150 MPH compared to Haeger's knucklers.

Oldschoolsoxguy
10-06-2006, 10:43 AM
You are dead-on Frater,regarding Haeger.This guy's value (for now anyway)
will be as the first guy in in case one of the starters gets whacked.The rubber arm knuckler could even pitch on consecutive days if needed.I'm thinking 3 innings at the most and get him out of there so the other team's lineup doesn't get a second look at the slow stuff.Then he gives way to the hard-throwers at the end of the pen.This year when Oz brought in McCarthy and pitched him for 3 or more innings,he couldn't use the guy for the next game,and sometimes the next two.Plus he's gonna be a fit with is low salary

cbotnyse
10-06-2006, 11:09 AM
Buehrle and Contreras returning to 2005 form -- that gets the Sox back on track in a big way.Yes and one more solid arm in the bullpen and we will be back in the WS. Also Jenks staying healthy and on form is key. I dont see much promise in Haeger however.

35th&Shields
10-06-2006, 11:46 AM
Buehrle and Contreras returning to 2005 form -- that gets the Sox back on track in a big way.

Contreras is 50 years old. I don't know how reliable he can be in the long run. I hope I'm wrong, but my fear is his best days are behind him.

soxfanatlanta
10-06-2006, 12:32 PM
Mark Buerhle and a righty in the pen. I originally thought Cotts, but Thorton can pick up the slack. The Sox need a reliable righty as a set-up man.

Agreed. If MB wins 17 games next year, and we get a rh setup guy to perform well in the pen, 90 wins can easily becom to 95+ wins. I also would love to see Jenks drop 20 pounds; all that extra weight is going to ruin him.

Hangar18
10-06-2006, 12:56 PM
definitely agree. Buehrle's got to get it together and start dominating again. Can't wait to see Haeger either.


Mark Buehrle really needs to look in the mirror this offseason ........
what a freaking poor season this guy had.

Beautox
10-07-2006, 05:40 AM
Do you really think they will give Haeger a shot? I think it will be hard for Kenny and Ozzie to pull the trigger on him, isn't it a known fact that the knuckle ball doesn't move very well in the dry Arizona heat. I see him maybe getting a bullpen spot or getting some more time in Triple-A before getting called up. But I do believe he will be a star for the Sox sometime soon in the future. :bandance:

I too believe Haeger will be a star, regardless of where he winds up at, but judging from the organizations actions (exhibition game against ATL, spot start, sept call up) they're high on him. I believe Chuck could post a league avg ERA with the possibility for much more if given the #5 spot in our rotation. I also think he can succeed in the pen provided he gets consistant work, hes already made his debut at 23, wakefield didn't do it till 26 and Hough thinks his knuckler is something special(ill take his word). Lastly Haeger retired the last 15 batters he faced with none of them reaching base and SO 7 all in relief. Its not question of weather hes got "ML Stuff" just a question of if he can repeat his mechanics and get ahead of hitters. He can be a very valuable part for the white sox for a very long time.

batmanZoSo
10-07-2006, 10:05 AM
Agreed. If MB wins 17 games next year, and we get a rh setup guy to perform well in the pen, 90 wins can easily becom to 95+ wins. I also would love to see Jenks drop 20 pounds; all that extra weight is going to ruin him.

Same here. Not to mentioned he pitched his ass off this year.

viagracat
10-07-2006, 10:36 AM
I say Buehrle and Garland will be the main guys next year. I believe Garland is now in top form and Buehrle will be back after an obviously poor second half. Knuckleballers can be lights-out but also tend to be quite inconsistent, so I'm going to wait and see on Haeger. Contreras is getting old and Garcia either does great or pisses me off.

No one in the 'pen, including McCarthy and Jenks, instilled a lot of confidence in me down the stretch. We'll need them and I trust they'll work to improve, but I can't put them in my "top 2" to get us back to the playoffs at this time.

I highly doubt Zito is coming here.

Paulwny
10-07-2006, 11:03 AM
I highly doubt Zito is coming here.


Agree, look for a team in the AL East with money to burn in dire need of pitching and having an owner who can't stand not winning a WS every year.

Dan the Man
10-07-2006, 12:41 PM
My predictions are Buehrle and Freddy Garcia. I know there is a ton of speculation that Sweaty Freddy will be traded, and that he drastically raised his value at the end of the year, but I believe the Sox and KW will keep him. He is primed for a big season IMO.

And with Haeger, he can be a stud out of the pen and as a spot starter. If a pitcher is having an off day or it's pretty windy outside, he can be unhittable.

beck72
10-08-2006, 06:09 AM
You hit the nail right on the head. I saw Haeger pitch like a wild man earlier in the year (I think it was it in the Spring but I can't remember right now) and then he comes back in September and is lights out. Which Haeger are we going to see next year?

As a Sox fan, of course I want to see him pitch in '07 like he did in Sept '06, but the key for him is controlling that knuckle ball. Maybe Charlie can hang out with Tim Wakefield over the Winter? Just a thought.

IIRC, Haeger was throwing too hard in his SP debut [to be expected in his major league debut]. When he came back, he threw slower. And more strikes.

beck72
10-08-2006, 06:13 AM
The two most important guys to get back on track are Buerhle [which he should--said he needed to get into shape, took it too easy in the offseason]. And Neal Cotts. If Neal can get close to what he did in 2005, the bullpen looks in great shape. With Cotts back, and Haeger can throw out of the bullpen, if the sox add a veteran arm like Chad Qualls or FA Justin Speier, the pen will be a strength again.

Patrick134
10-08-2006, 11:55 AM
The two most important guys to get back on track are Buerhle [which he should--said he needed to get into shape, took it too easy in the offseason]. And Neal Cotts. If Neal can get close to what he did in 2005, the bullpen looks in great shape. With Cotts back, and Haeger can throw out of the bullpen, if the sox add a veteran arm like Chad Qualls or FA Justin Speier, the pen will be a strength again.

We can't pick up Qualls, we need to keep him on other teams so he can be our grand slam machine.

slavko
10-08-2006, 06:48 PM
The two most important guys to get back on track are Buerhle [which he should--said he needed to get into shape, took it too easy in the offseason]. And Neal Cotts. If Neal can get close to what he did in 2005, the bullpen looks in great shape. With Cotts back, and Haeger can throw out of the bullpen, if the sox add a veteran arm like Chad Qualls or FA Justin Speier, the pen will be a strength again.

MB may be right, but his falloff in the second, not first, half of the season says otherwise. And what's the rationale for Cotts getting better? Kenny should make changes. Be ready for them.

DumpJerry
10-08-2006, 07:12 PM
I say Buehrle and Garland will be the main guys next year. I believe Garland is now in top form and Buehrle will be back after an obviously poor second half. Knuckleballers can be lights-out but also tend to be quite inconsistent, so I'm going to wait and see on Haeger. Contreras is getting old and Garcia either does great or pisses me off.

No one in the 'pen, including McCarthy and Jenks, instilled a lot of confidence in me down the stretch. We'll need them and I trust they'll work to improve, but I can't put them in my "top 2" to get us back to the playoffs at this time.

I highly doubt Zito is coming here.
It took 30+ posts to mention Garland!!! What took so long?

Dan the Man
10-08-2006, 07:16 PM
We can't pick up Qualls, we need to keep him on other teams so he can be our grand slam machine.

:thumbsup:

VenturaIsAGod
10-15-2006, 02:34 AM
I'm not as much of a fan of Haeger coming out of the bullpen on a full-time basis. IMO, knuckleballers often need at least an inning to get settled into the game, and in relief, that one inning would more than likely blow the game for us. I don't know, I could be wrong, but the idea of a knuckleballer in our bullpen is not that appealing to me. It's too much of a hit or miss situation, and I prefer consistency in the bullpen.

jabrch
10-15-2006, 08:45 AM
I'm trying to think of Knucklerballers in the past 20 years who have succeeded as relievers. None come to mind, but I'm sure there are some.

Any help?

RedHeadPaleHoser
10-15-2006, 09:25 AM
Jaime Navarro and Todd Ritchie.

Oh, to get us BACK on track, my bad, read the post header wrong. :D:

October26
10-15-2006, 10:09 AM
I'm not as much of a fan of Haeger coming out of the bullpen on a full-time basis. IMO, knuckleballers often need at least an inning to get settled into the game, and in relief, that one inning would more than likely blow the game for us. I don't know, I could be wrong, but the idea of a knuckleballer in our bullpen is not that appealing to me. It's too much of a hit or miss situation, and I prefer consistency in the bullpen.
:thumbsup: Good point. I agree with you. The knuckeleball is an unpredictable pitch, and we need consistency coming out of the bullpen (as we did in 2005). I prefer to see Haeger starting next year, but then what do we do with Brandon Mccarthy (assuming we don't trade one of our starters) who is supposed to become a starter in 2007?

We'd have too many starters and nobody to come out of the bullpen.:o:

Beautox
10-16-2006, 05:40 AM
I'm going to say a few things about Haeger; he has made his debut at 23, wake didn't make it till 26, thats HUGE. A 23yr old who has comand of Knuckler? thats almost warrents the word prodigy considering how hard the knuckle is to learn let alone to become effective with.

Next there are more to knuckle balls than just "dancing" they're a class of pitch just like the fastball(split,cut,4 seam, 2 seam). Haeger is incredibly advanced for his age and his pitch and i don't think alot of sox fans truly grasp and appreciate that, they write him off as a one trick pony(which is true to an extent) or undervalue him as trade bait.

Charlie Haeger in the '07 white sox bull pen as the swing man / long relief / spot starter is a great thing. For the past two years our BP has been the least used in MLB, Charlie will only further that, he has shown he can be effective out of the pen; if im not mistaken the last 16 batters he faced none of them reached and he struck out 7 including Ichiro. The back end of our BP is a health risk(Jenks,MacDougal,Thornton), Haeger can protect them. As others have stated after opposing hitters have seen Charlie the back end of our BP is going to look like they're throwing 150mph and AJP has already shown he can catch Charlie effectively. In time maybe 2 years down the road if not sooner i could see Haeger into the rotation.

This is how i see the '07 white sox pen shaking out.

Jenks, MacDougal, Thornton, FA(re sign Riske or sign Justin Speier), Cotts/Logan/Perez, Haeger

kitekrazy
10-16-2006, 09:36 AM
Exactly. They need some competition, or even risk, involved here. That will definately have an impact on their game.

That should do it. Their salary should have nothing to do with it. Below average pitchers make more than their value.

I think to give up any starter the trade would have to be really good and also keep in mind what team you are helping improve.

Lillian
10-18-2006, 04:53 PM
I just received a complimentary copy of the Baseball America periodical. The feature story on the Sox is about Haeger. Most of us have read accounts of Charlie Hough's assessments of Haeger before, but I thought you might like to read this exact quote.
Charlie Hough, who worked with Haeger in the Spring, and then saw him again when the Sox were in Anaheim. Hough says the following; "He's the best I've seen since Tim Wakefield, by far. He has a good knuckleball, period. His delivery is solid now. He made a lot of progress. The Sox did a good job with him."

sox1970
10-18-2006, 05:03 PM
I just received a complimentary copy of the Baseball America periodical. The feature story on the Sox is about Haeger. Most of us have read accounts of Charlie Hough's assessments of Haeger before, but I thought you might like to read this exact quote.
Charlie Hough, who worked with Haeger in the Spring, and then saw him again when the Sox were in Anaheim. Hough says the following; "He's the best I've seen since Tim Wakefield, by far. He has a good knuckleball, period. His delivery is solid now. He made a lot of progress. The Sox did a good job with him."

I'm a big fan of Haeger. I think he could be a valuable asset for those games that get out of hand early. They can put him in in the 2nd or 3rd inning and let him go the rest of the way to save the bullpen for the close games. He'll pitch in a lot of losses, but he'll be helping the team win the close ones by keeping everyone else fresh. Plus he can spot start rainout doubleheaders, so they don't have to make roster moves.

Lillian
10-21-2006, 06:56 AM
We've all been trying to figure out how the Sox can get back some consistency in the starting rotation. We all know that we have quantity, with 6 starters, but the quality is questionable. It would be great if we could trade two of our more questionable starters for one really dominant arm. Unfortunately, there probably isn't any team out there that could, or would make a deal like that.

The one big plus that we have is that everyone of our starters is basically healthy. We don't have any guys like the pair the Cubs have been stuck with. The minor injuries that our starters suffered last year are not chronic, and they could all be healthy for next season.

We're all aware of the individual issues. Did Mark just fail to locate, or has the league finally figured out one of the most consistent pitchers in the game? Can he make the necessary adjustments to counter the league? Or is his arm tired from all of the innings? Why was Vasquez two completely different pitchers between the first 5 innings, and the rest of game, in almost all of his starts? Is Freddy going to get his fastball back, and even if he doesn't, is that new splitter enough to make him anywhere near as good as he was in September? Was Contreras really hurt, or is he just getting old?
Well, you see my point. Who knows which guys will get back to where they should be.

No one has yet suggested that we just keep all six of them, and assume that at least four, or five of them will get it all back together. They're all capable of being much better than average pitchers.

Since the team really doesn't have any big holes to fill, I wonder if it doesn't make more sense to just try to shore up the middle relief, find one true center field back up, and go with what we have. Is Pods, or Uribe, really the reason that the Sox didn't make the playoffs last year? This team still won 90 games, in the toughest division in baseball. I would like to see them make a few minor changes, rather than make lot's of dramatic changes.

I know that it's not as much fun as speculating about deals that could bring players like A-Rod or Crawford, but realistically, who would we have to give up to acquire guys of that quality. Nevertheless, I'd settle for seeing these same guys, with a few minor changes, getting back to the level of play and consistency, that we saw from them in 2005. Keeping our 6 starters, and letting them compete for 5 spots, makes sense to me.

Beautox
10-21-2006, 01:02 PM
We've all been trying to figure out how the Sox can get back some consistency in the starting rotation. We all know that we have quantity, with 6 starters, but the quality is questionable. It would be great if we could trade two of our more questionable starters for one really dominant arm. Unfortunately, there probably isn't any team out there that could, or would make a deal like that.

The one big plus that we have is that everyone of our starters is basically healthy. We don't have any guys like the pair the Cubs have been stuck with. The minor injuries that our starters suffered last year are not chronic, and they could all be healthy for next season.

We're all aware of the individual issues. Did Mark just fail to locate, or has the league finally figured out one of the most consistent pitchers in the game? Can he make the necessary adjustments to counter the league? Or is his arm tired from all of the innings? Why was Vasquez two completely different pitchers between the first 5 innings, and the rest of game, in almost all of his starts? Is Freddy going to get his fastball back, and even if he doesn't, is that new splitter enough to make him anywhere near as good as he was in September? Was Contreras really hurt, or is he just getting old?
Well, you see my point. Who knows which guys will get back to where they should be.

No one has yet suggested that we just keep all six of them, and assume that at least four, or five of them will get it all back together. They're all capable of being much better than average pitchers.

Since the team really doesn't have any big holes to fill, I wonder if it doesn't make more sense to just try to shore up the middle relief, find one true center field back up, and go with what we have. Is Pods, or Uribe, really the reason that the Sox didn't make the playoffs last year? This team still won 90 games, in the toughest division in baseball. I would like to see them make a few minor changes, rather than make lot's of dramatic changes.

I know that it's not as much fun as speculating about deals that could bring players like A-Rod or Crawford, but realistically, who would we have to give up to acquire guys of that quality. Nevertheless, I'd settle for seeing these same guys, with a few minor changes, getting back to the level of play and consistency, that we saw from them in 2005. Keeping our 6 starters, and letting them compete for 5 spots, makes sense to me.

We have alot of money locked up into our starting 5. This is how i view our SPs

-Make Buehrle, if we can't re sign him, he should be moved this offseason, we can't afford to let him walk after '07 and get nothing in return, dealing him to his home town cards would be good for both teams, a package of Reyes (http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=435039), Rasmus (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Colby%20Rasmus&pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=458675), Anderson (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Bryan%20Anderson&pos=C&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=457762) would help set our team up for the present and future.

-Freddy Garcia, Should be sent packing, hes got upside, his fastball might come back and his newly developed splitter is great, but i find myself asking, is his splitter the same as Loaiza's cutter? deal him to the mets for Humber (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Philip%20Humber&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=458950) & Niese (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Jonathon%20Niese&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=477003).

-Jose Contreras, he older and has 3 years left on his contract, i wouldn't be against moving him to a pitching starved team like Texas for Michael Young (http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=276545) and Thomas Diamond (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Thomas%20Diamond&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=435080) or the Phillies for Scott Mathieson (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Scott%20Mathieson&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=455949) and Jimmy Rollins (http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=276519).

-Jon Garland, he just turned 27, and is the winningest pitcher for the past two years in baseball, we waited a long time for JG to come around, and i wouldn't move him, when he locates inside and his sinker is working hes great.

-Javy Vazquez, just turned 30 in July and is still in his prime. KW gave up alot to get him, and from *8/5 onward
12 GS 77 IP 67 H 33 ER 9 HR 20 BB 75 K, 3.86 ERA, 1.13 WHIP
White Sox record in those starts - 2-10(10 straight losses).
White Sox offense in those starts - 2.6 runs a game.
White Sox offense in Vazquez's last 10 starts - 1.9 runs a game
Javy has the best pure stuff on the staff, i wouldn't deal him, we still have two years left on his contract.

-Brandon McCarthy, hes young, talented and has shown flashes of brilliance when he has started, he gives the sox at the very least a #3 starter with the possibility of being an ace, he also gives the sox payroll flexibility, hes untouchable.

*stats compiled by soxtalk user witesoxfan

Frater Perdurabo
10-21-2006, 01:27 PM
Since the team really doesn't have any big holes to fill, I wonder if it doesn't make more sense to just try to shore up the middle relief, find one true center field back up, and go with what we have......

Keeping our 6 starters, and letting them compete for 5 spots, makes sense to me.

There's a certain "under the radar" logic to your suggestion to keep all six starters. It's not as if the Sox are going to get Johan Santana (or an equivalent ace) for Garcia and Vazquez.

If other teams' impressions of Vazquez's value is low, it wouldn't make sense to deal him. Buehrle's value also is comparatively low after a sub-par year. Garcia's value also might be low compared to his upside. Indeed, Buehrle, Vazquez and Garcia should "regress to the mean" of their historical career averages and therefore should improve over their disappointing 2006 performances. Therefore, the Sox are not likely to get equivalent value back in a trade.

Also, the Sox may want to hang onto their surplus pitching to guard against possible injury/ineffectiveness. Finally, it would be good to have chips to deal in the event that Seattle makes Ichiro available (as Lip has specualted) before the July 31 non-waiver trade deadline.

So, if no deals are made, tell McCarthy to report to Charlotte to get stretched out as a starter. Tell him he has to go back because of his sub-par performance in the 2006 bullpen. Then, he'll be ready to step in to the rotation when summoned.

kevin57
10-21-2006, 02:57 PM
Mark has to return to form, but I'll go out on a limb with this one...I think that Vazquez will finally have the lights-out year that every expert says he's capable of.

ondafarm
10-21-2006, 03:03 PM
We have alot of money locked up into our starting 5. This is how i view our SPs

-Make Buehrle, if we can't re sign him, he should be moved this offseason, we can't afford to let him walk after '07 and get nothing in return, dealing him to his home town cards would be good for both teams, a package of Reyes (http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=435039), Rasmus (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Colby%20Rasmus&pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=458675), Anderson (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Bryan%20Anderson&pos=C&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=457762) would help set our team up for the present and future.

-Freddy Garcia, Should be sent packing, hes got upside, his fastball might come back and his newly developed splitter is great, but i find myself asking, is his splitter the same as Loaiza's cutter? deal him to the mets for Humber (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Philip%20Humber&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=458950) & Niese (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Jonathon%20Niese&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=477003).

-Jose Contreras, he older and has 3 years left on his contract, i wouldn't be against moving him to a pitching starved team like Texas for Michael Young (http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=276545) and Thomas Diamond (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Thomas%20Diamond&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=435080) or the Phillies for Scott Mathieson (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Scott%20Mathieson&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=455949) and Jimmy Rollins (http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=276519).

-Jon Garland, he just turned 27, and is the winningest pitcher for the past two years in baseball, we waited a long time for JG to come around, and i wouldn't move him, when he locates inside and his sinker is working hes great.

-Javy Vazquez, just turned 30 in July and is still in his prime. KW gave up alot to get him, and from *8/5 onward
12 GS 77 IP 67 H 33 ER 9 HR 20 BB 75 K, 3.86 ERA, 1.13 WHIP
White Sox record in those starts - 2-10(10 straight losses).
White Sox offense in those starts - 2.6 runs a game.
White Sox offense in Vazquez's last 10 starts - 1.9 runs a game
Javy has the best pure stuff on the staff, i wouldn't deal him, we still have two years left on his contract.

-Brandon McCarthy, hes young, talented and has shown flashes of brilliance when he has started, he gives the sox at the very least a #3 starter with the possibility of being an ace, he also gives the sox payroll flexibility, hes untouchable.

*stats compiled by soxtalk user witesoxfan

So in short, just dump the whole starting staff and start over.

Brilliant idea.

Beautox
10-21-2006, 04:14 PM
So in short, just dump the whole starting staff and start over.

Brilliant idea.

Yes i said dump the whole staff. Wait no i didn't, i said keep Javy, Jon and McCarthy. Try to re sign MB, and if not move him, we can't be left holding the bag with this new CBA and not even get a draft pick for him in '08. I am advocating trading Garcia, and i said "i wouldn't be against" dealing Jose. That to me doesn't sound like the whole staff infact it sounds like at most 1/3rd the staff. Maybe some free (http://www.rhlschool.com/reading.htm)reading comprehension work sheets (http://www.rhlschool.com/reading.htm) would serve you well.

ondafarm
10-21-2006, 04:29 PM
. . . Maybe some free (http://www.rhlschool.com/reading.htm)reading comprehension work sheets (http://www.rhlschool.com/reading.htm) would serve you well.

Maybe a little baseball knowledge would help you. Start here: http://www.littleleague.org/

Beautox
10-21-2006, 04:39 PM
Maybe a little baseball knowledge would help you. Start here: http://www.littleleague.org/

http://www.nicholasroussos.com/images/chocolate-zinger.jpg

I still stand behind the fact i think you need reading comprehension skills.

Myrtle72
10-21-2006, 04:42 PM
http://www.nicholasroussos.com/images/chocolate-zinger.jpg

I still stand behind the fact i think you need reading comprehension skills.

Gettin' a little fiesty here, aren't we? How bout we direct this passion towards someone more deserving, like a Cubs fan.

Lillian
10-21-2006, 05:59 PM
Perhaps another way to express my point is simply that trading one of our starters means that we need to be 4 for 4 in improvement from everyone but Garland, who was the only really consistent starter we had. I assume that he will not be traded. Unless the Sox can find some other starters, we will be depending on everyone to improve. Having 6 starters gives us a little margin for error.
If we had 6 good starters, then we would be talking about a surplus, and we could afford to trade one of them. How many good starters do you all think we really have? The way I see it, it sure isn't a surplus. I'd be pleasantly surprised if we could get 4 out of the 6 to be consistently good next season.
If that happened, I think we could accept a 5th starter who was just serviceable.

jabrch
10-21-2006, 07:02 PM
In my eyes, none of these guys are untouchable, and none of them have to go. It's all about what they are worth in the market.

Garland was the best of the bunch over the course of the past two seasons. But if we could get top tier value for him, I'd think about it. If Baltimore would send us Tejada and pay the salary difference... If there's an A-Rod deal to do? Not sure.

But the point is that I don't think any of them should be untouchable.

southwstchi4life
10-21-2006, 07:16 PM
I think Haegar is really good. I really gotta kick out of watching aj catch for him that last game of the season. He had a difficult time and got frustrated. Im sure get get worked on in spring training

Lillian
10-21-2006, 08:52 PM
In my eyes, none of these guys are untouchable, and none of them have to go. It's all about what they are worth in the market.

Garland was the best of the bunch over the course of the past two seasons. But if we could get top tier value for him, I'd think about it. If Baltimore would send us Tejada and pay the salary difference... If there's an A-Rod deal to do? Not sure.

But the point is that I don't think any of them should be untouchable.

I agree that none of them should be untouchable. However, I just don't see the merit in trading any of them for position players. The top priority still should be pitching.

MySoxAreClean
10-21-2006, 09:18 PM
Chuck Norris

ondafarm
10-21-2006, 10:38 PM
Look, in the past few days I've talked to several of my Japanese baseball friends: scouts, a minor league manager, a major league pitching coach and several former players. The question that each of them is raising is whether the Sox will trade either Garcia or Vazquez or will they trade both of them. Buehrle, Garland, Contreras and McCarthy are a solid four. One of the three following guys will be in camp with those four: Garcia, Vazquez and Haeger. Haeger may stay in long relief if he's not a starter.

If you think that any of the top four have problems that means he will not improve, then you just don't understand pitching.

As for when you trade an SP, there are two times: offseason (before ST) or in a contender -non-contender late July deal. The Sox will not go to camp with 6 starters fighting for five spots. If you think so, dream on.

getonbckthr
10-21-2006, 10:55 PM
Look, in the past few days I've talked to several of my Japanese baseball friends: scouts, a minor league manager, a major league pitching coach and several former players. The question that each of them is raising is whether the Sox will trade either Garcia or Vazquez or will they trade both of them. Buehrle, Garland, Contreras and McCarthy are a solid four. One of the three following guys will be in camp with those four: Garcia, Vazquez and Haeger. Haeger may stay in long relief if he's not a starter.

If you think that any of the top four have problems that means he will not improve, then you just don't understand pitching.

As for when you trade an SP, there are two times: offseason (before ST) or in a contender -non-contender late July deal. The Sox will not go to camp with 6 starters fighting for five spots. If you think so, dream on.
I agree on Mccarthy is a definate for the rotation in 07 KW said as much when he refused to trade him in July.

chisoxfanatic
10-23-2006, 09:39 PM
I would say Buehrle will go back to regular form (he'll wanna prove all of the naysayers wrong...i.e. Cubune), and Vazquez will pitch lights-out. Contreras and Garland will pitch as expected, leading us to the playoffs after a one-year absence.