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View Full Version : Planet Zito on the Southside?


Gregory Pratt
10-01-2006, 04:46 PM
From Cowley's latest: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/78829,CST-SPT-cowley01.article

WILLIAMS' IDEAL LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Gary Matthews, 2B Iguchi, RF Dye, DH Jim Thome, 1B Paul Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, LF Anderson, SS Juan Uribe; RHP Contreras, LHP Barry Zito, RHP Garland, LHP Buehrle, RHP McCarthy.
GUILLEN'S IDEAL LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Juan Pierre, SS Michael Young, RF Dye, DH Thome, 1B Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, 2B Iguchi, LF Ryan Sweeney; RHP Contreras, LHP Buehrle, RHP Garland, RHP Freddy Garcia, RHP McCarthy.
MOST REALISTIC LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Pierre, 2B Iguchi, RF Dye, DH Thome, 1B Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, LF Anderson, SS Alex Gonzalez; RHP Contreras, LHP Buehrle, RHP Garland, RHP Javier Vazquez, RHP McCarthy.



I'd love me some Barry Zito. He's amazing, and he grinds on the mound better than any other pitcher, IMO, which is to say that when he gets into trouble, he bears down better than anyone I've seen.

October26
10-01-2006, 04:59 PM
From Cowley's latest: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/78829,CST-SPT-cowley01.article

WILLIAMS' IDEAL LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Gary Matthews, 2B Iguchi, RF Dye, DH Jim Thome, 1B Paul Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, LF Anderson, SS Juan Uribe; RHP Contreras, LHP Barry Zito, RHP Garland, LHP Buehrle, RHP McCarthy.
GUILLEN'S IDEAL LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Juan Pierre, SS Michael Young, RF Dye, DH Thome, 1B Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, 2B Iguchi, LF Ryan Sweeney; RHP Contreras, LHP Buehrle, RHP Garland, RHP Freddy Garcia, RHP McCarthy.
MOST REALISTIC LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Pierre, 2B Iguchi, RF Dye, DH Thome, 1B Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, LF Anderson, SS Alex Gonzalez; RHP Contreras, LHP Buehrle, RHP Garland, RHP Javier Vazquez, RHP McCarthy.



I'd love me some Barry Zito. He's amazing, and he grinds on the mound better than any other pitcher, IMO, which is to say that when he gets into trouble, he bears down better than anyone I've seen.

Zito has always pitched great against the Sox. I'd love to see him on the South Side as well.

Jjav829
10-01-2006, 05:12 PM
From Cowley's latest: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/78829,CST-SPT-cowley01.article

WILLIAMS' IDEAL LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Gary Matthews, 2B Iguchi, RF Dye, DH Jim Thome, 1B Paul Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, LF Anderson, SS Juan Uribe; RHP Contreras, LHP Barry Zito, RHP Garland, LHP Buehrle, RHP McCarthy.
GUILLEN'S IDEAL LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Juan Pierre, SS Michael Young, RF Dye, DH Thome, 1B Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, 2B Iguchi, LF Ryan Sweeney; RHP Contreras, LHP Buehrle, RHP Garland, RHP Freddy Garcia, RHP McCarthy.
MOST REALISTIC LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Pierre, 2B Iguchi, RF Dye, DH Thome, 1B Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, LF Anderson, SS Alex Gonzalez; RHP Contreras, LHP Buehrle, RHP Garland, RHP Javier Vazquez, RHP McCarthy.



I'd love me some Barry Zito. He's amazing, and he grinds on the mound better than any other pitcher, IMO, which is to say that when he gets into trouble, he bears down better than anyone I've seen.

Meh, no thanks. Zito is not worth a 5-year, $75 million deal or whatever crazy deal some team will give him. I'm sure the Mets will be big bidders, especially with Pedro likely out until June. At a reasonable price, sure, I'd love to have Zito. I just don't see the price being anywhere near reasonable.

Who knows what Cowley knows, but I find it interesting that he doesn't have Anderson's name in any of those lineups.

Whitesox4ever
10-01-2006, 05:15 PM
Meh, no thanks. Zito is not worth a 5-year, $75 million deal or whatever crazy deal some team will give him. I'm sure the Mets will be big bidders, especially with Pedro likely out until June.

Who knows what Cowley knows, but I find it interesting that he doesn't have Anderson's name in any of those lineups.


Actually Anderson is in the 1st lineup

Whitesox4ever
10-01-2006, 05:17 PM
Me personally I would love to see Young and Matthews join the sox in the offseason

Jjav829
10-01-2006, 05:17 PM
Actually Anderson is in the 1st lineup

You're right. My bad. The fact that he's listed in left field made me miss his name. I just checked the centerfielders and noticed BA wasn't listed.

There's no way Juan Pierre is playing center ahead of BA. If Pierre and BA are both if the outfield next year, Pierre will be the one moving to left.

Gregory Pratt
10-01-2006, 05:24 PM
Meh, no thanks. Zito is not worth a 5-year, $75 million deal or whatever crazy deal some team will give him. I'm sure the Mets will be big bidders, especially with Pedro likely out until June. At a reasonable price, sure, I'd love to have Zito. I just don't see the price being anywhere near reasonable.

Who knows what Cowley knows, but I find it interesting that he doesn't have Anderson's name in any of those lineups.

Zito won't be getting that type of deal, IMO. Recent news said that the New York teams actually AREN'T that interested in him, and that'll significantly lower his price.

RealMenWearBlack
10-01-2006, 05:50 PM
Zito won't be getting that type of deal, IMO. Recent news said that the New York teams actually AREN'T that interested in him, and that'll significantly lower his price.

IIRC, that news came out before Pedro was supposed to have surgery.

caulfield12
10-01-2006, 05:58 PM
Zito won't be getting that type of deal, IMO. Recent news said that the New York teams actually AREN'T that interested in him, and that'll significantly lower his price.

And if the Yankees lose Mussina and trade A-Rod (assuming they don't win the WS again), they will want to make a splashy FA signing. Plus, they have no way of knowing about Randy Johnson at his agent and Pavano's a total flake.

goon
10-01-2006, 06:05 PM
From Cowley's latest: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/78829,CST-SPT-cowley01.article

MOST REALISTIC LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Pierre, 2B Iguchi, RF Dye, DH Thome, 1B Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, LF Anderson, SS Alex Gonzalez; RHP Contreras, LHP Buehrle, RHP Garland, RHP Javier Vazquez, RHP McCarthy.



something is missing here.... freddy is gone and all we get in return is alex gonzalez? that makes NO SENSE. if the sox deal one of their starters they are going to get somebody better then gonzalez.

ShoelessJoeS
10-01-2006, 06:07 PM
something is missing here.... freddy is gone and all we get in return is alex gonzalez? that makes NO SENSE. if the sox deal one of their starters they are going to get somebody better then gonzalez.I was thinking the same thing....what are we just gonna cut Freddy like he's Russ Ortiz?

MarySwiss
10-01-2006, 06:10 PM
Will someone please explain to me the fascination with Juan Pierre? Slowly. Because I just flat-out do not get it.

DaleJRFan
10-01-2006, 06:26 PM
Ok, since it is officially the off-season for the Sox, I'll bite on this one. I'd much rather see some sort of combo of those scenarios to any one of them becoming reality.

The concept of Alex Gonzalez being an upgrade over Uribe is insane. Sure, he fields among the best in baseball, but so does Uribe. Gonzalez is a career 240 hitter with little power. Uribe, also a career 240 hitter, at least can mash every once in a while when he feels like waiting for his pitch.

With Both Anderson and Matthews in a lineup together, who leads off? Niether are threats for stolen bases and niether walk a whole lot. Pierre would be nice, but I haven't seen any posters mention that his CS rate is as high as Podsednik's. His singles and hits totals are a bit inflated because of the number of at-bats he's had this season (700+). Is he really an upgrade when he gets thrown out 25% of the time, shaky in the field (can't be any worse than Pods though) and is going to command some serious $$$??

Barry Zito is a flyball pitcher, isn't he? Not sure that's a good combo with USCF. Besides, I thought the Sox were going to move a starting pitcher to free up $$ for Crede, MacDougal, Thornton, etc who will all get considerable raises. If this is the case, why would the Sox move TWO starters (22 million) and replace with Zito at 5/75? Doesn't make much sense. Last time I checked, the Sox don't give 5 year deals to pitchers. Just the name gets me excited, though - and the fact that it isn't objectionable to imagine big name free agents coming to the south side.

BUT -- I think it would be more realistic to think that Vazquez will be moved. As much as some of us want Garcia gone, he's a better pitcher (it's ok, you can admit it) and he makes less. McCarthy takes over in the rotation and Haeger takes McCarthy's role in the bullpen.

Rotation: Contreras, Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, McCarthy
Bullpen: Haeger, Cotts/Aquisition, Riske/Aquisition, MacDougal, Thornton, Jenks

If it were up to me (and thank God its not!) I'd shoot for Pierre and Young. The risk is too high on Matthews. He'll be 32 and can anyone know for sure that 2006 wasn't a fluke? He is mostly a gap hitter with few walks. This team needs OBP guys to get on for the boppers.

What a lineup that would make with Young and Pierre...

LF - Pierre
SS - Young
RF - Dye
DH - Thome
1B - Konerko
3B - Crede
C - AJ
2B - Iguchi
CF - Anderson

Gregory Pratt
10-01-2006, 06:29 PM
Barry Zito is a flyball pitcher, isn't he? Not sure that's a good combo with USCF.

I've heard that concern before. But he's had no trouble pitching here. In his time pitching against the Sox in Chicago, he's been dominant, and that's against the old lineups filled with righty mashers (Konerko, Lee, Maggs, Thomas) and today's.

I really doubt he gets as much money as the Best Case Scenario For Scott Boras indicates he will.

buehrle4cy05
10-01-2006, 06:31 PM
Meh, no thanks. Zito is not worth a 5-year, $75 million deal or whatever crazy deal some team will give him. I'm sure the Mets will be big bidders, especially with Pedro likely out until June. At a reasonable price, sure, I'd love to have Zito. I just don't see the price being anywhere near reasonable.


Zito for under $8 million would be worth it, but anything above that is a ripoff. He hasn't been nearly as good in the past 3 years as he was in his first 3 years, which is discouraging. It seems like he hit his prime in his first three years in the league and is now dropping off.

DaleJRFan
10-01-2006, 06:32 PM
I've heard that concern before. But he's had no trouble pitching here. In his time pitching against the Sox in Chicago, he's been dominant, and that's against the old lineups filled with righty mashers (Konerko, Lee, Maggs, Thomas) and today's.

I really doubt he gets as much money as the Best Case Scenario For Scott Boras indicates he will.

I'll plead ignorant. I really have no idea what kind of pitcher he is... I was actually asking :cool:

Gregory Pratt
10-01-2006, 06:34 PM
I'll plead ignorant. I really have no idea what kind of pitcher he is... I was actually asking :cool:

To an extent, he is a guy who tries to pop you up, but, conversely, he's played here against us for years now, at times in which we've had some strong lineups of righties, and he's owned us, so there's no track record of him having trouble at Comiskular.

caulfield12
10-01-2006, 07:05 PM
Ok, since it is officially the off-season for the Sox, I'll bite on this one. I'd much rather see some sort of combo of those scenarios to any one of them becoming reality.

The concept of Alex Gonzalez being an upgrade over Uribe is insane. Sure, he fields among the best in baseball, but so does Uribe. Gonzalez is a career 240 hitter with little power. Uribe, also a career 240 hitter, at least can mash every once in a while when he feels like waiting for his pitch.

With Both Anderson and Matthews in a lineup together, who leads off? Niether are threats for stolen bases and niether walk a whole lot. Pierre would be nice, but I haven't seen any posters mention that his CS rate is as high as Podsednik's. His singles and hits totals are a bit inflated because of the number of at-bats he's had this season (700+). Is he really an upgrade when he gets thrown out 25% of the time, shaky in the field (can't be any worse than Pods though) and is going to command some serious $$$??

Barry Zito is a flyball pitcher, isn't he? Not sure that's a good combo with USCF. Besides, I thought the Sox were going to move a starting pitcher to free up $$ for Crede, MacDougal, Thornton, etc who will all get considerable raises. If this is the case, why would the Sox move TWO starters (22 million) and replace with Zito at 5/75? Doesn't make much sense. Last time I checked, the Sox don't give 5 year deals to pitchers. Just the name gets me excited, though - and the fact that it isn't objectionable to imagine big name free agents coming to the south side.

BUT -- I think it would be more realistic to think that Vazquez will be moved. As much as some of us want Garcia gone, he's a better pitcher (it's ok, you can admit it) and he makes less. McCarthy takes over in the rotation and Haeger takes McCarthy's role in the bullpen.

Rotation: Contreras, Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, McCarthy
Bullpen: Haeger, Cotts/Aquisition, Riske/Aquisition, MacDougal, Thornton, Jenks

If it were up to me (and thank God its not!) I'd shoot for Pierre and Young. The risk is too high on Matthews. He'll be 32 and can anyone know for sure that 2006 wasn't a fluke? He is mostly a gap hitter with few walks. This team needs OBP guys to get on for the boppers.

What a lineup that would make with Young and Pierre...

LF - Pierre
SS - Young
RF - Dye
DH - Thome
1B - Konerko
3B - Crede
C - AJ
2B - Iguchi
CF - Anderson


With the cash thrown in next year, Vazquez will make $9.5 million, which is almost the same as Freddy's deal this year...I think Freddy might have actually made $10 million FWIW.

DaleJRFan
10-01-2006, 07:07 PM
With the cash thrown in next year, Vazquez will make $9.5 million, which is almost the same as Freddy's deal this year...I think Freddy might have actually made $10 million FWIW.

I guess the question then becomes, If the Sox trade Vazquez, do they have to send the $$$ with him, or would the recieving team pick up all of his 12 million for 07? Regardless, if the Sox want anything in return for either Vazquez or Garcia, they'll have to eat a lot of the contract(s).

Moving both Garcia and Vazquez and replacing the two with Zito and McCarthy sounds way too good to be true.

HotelWhiteSox
10-01-2006, 07:25 PM
Speculation. And LMAO that his "realistic" lineup shifts Anderson to LF and puts and Pierre in CF :?:

Lip Man 1
10-01-2006, 08:04 PM
Zito's agent is Scott Borass. Not going to happen folks.

Lip

Sox Fan 35
10-01-2006, 09:53 PM
Speculation. And LMAO that his "realistic" lineup shifts Anderson to LF and puts and Pierre in CF :?:

I really don't like his realistic line up. I would rather keep Uribe than have Gonzalez at short.

Sargeant79
10-02-2006, 01:34 AM
Zito for under $8 million would be worth it, but anything above that is a ripoff. He hasn't been nearly as good in the past 3 years as he was in his first 3 years, which is discouraging. It seems like he hit his prime in his first three years in the league and is now dropping off.

$8 million would be a bargain for Zito. A.J. Burnett got $11 mil/year last year...someone will pay Zito at least $12-13 mil/year. And if the Mets prove to be fairly concerned about Pedro's health, they could easily drive the price to 5 yrs/$15 mil like Boras is seaking. Good pitching is at a premium these days, especially ex-Cy Young award winners.

DumpJerry
10-02-2006, 08:54 AM
Zito's agent is Scott Borass. Not going to happen folks.

Lip
He also gives up walks. 99 in '06. Ten more than his previous career high which was in 2005. Not a good trend.

Hitmen77
10-02-2006, 09:21 AM
From Cowley's latest: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/78829,CST-SPT-cowley01.article

WILLIAMS' IDEAL LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Gary Matthews, 2B Iguchi, RF Dye, DH Jim Thome, 1B Paul Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, LF Anderson, SS Juan Uribe; RHP Contreras, LHP Barry Zito, RHP Garland, LHP Buehrle, RHP McCarthy.
GUILLEN'S IDEAL LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Juan Pierre, SS Michael Young, RF Dye, DH Thome, 1B Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, 2B Iguchi, LF Ryan Sweeney; RHP Contreras, LHP Buehrle, RHP Garland, RHP Freddy Garcia, RHP McCarthy.
MOST REALISTIC LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Pierre, 2B Iguchi, RF Dye, DH Thome, 1B Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, LF Anderson, SS Alex Gonzalez; RHP Contreras, LHP Buehrle, RHP Garland, RHP Javier Vazquez, RHP McCarthy.


Speculation. And LMAO that his "realistic" lineup shifts Anderson to LF and puts and Pierre in CF :?:

...and Kenny's "ideal" is to trade Garcia AND Pods for Alex Gonzalez?
:?:

Hangar18
10-02-2006, 09:45 AM
From Cowley's latest: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/78829,CST-SPT-cowley01.article

WILLIAMS' IDEAL LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Gary Matthews, 2B Iguchi, RF Dye, DH Jim Thome, 1B Paul Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, LF Anderson, SS Juan Uribe; RHP Contreras, LHP Barry Zito, RHP Garland, LHP Buehrle, RHP McCarthy.
GUILLEN'S IDEAL LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Juan Pierre, SS Michael Young, RF Dye, DH Thome, 1B Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, 2B Iguchi, LF Ryan Sweeney; RHP Contreras, LHP Buehrle, RHP Garland, RHP Freddy Garcia, RHP McCarthy.
MOST REALISTIC LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Pierre, 2B Iguchi, RF Dye, DH Thome, 1B Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, LF Anderson, SS Alex Gonzalez; RHP Contreras, LHP Buehrle, RHP Garland, RHP Javier Vazquez, RHP McCarthy.



I'd love me some Barry Zito. He's amazing, and he grinds on the mound better than any other pitcher, IMO, which is to say that when he gets into trouble, he bears down better than anyone I've seen.


I want ZITO in a SOX uniform. And the SOX have an EXCELLENT chance at landing the 26yr old Japanese phenom too. KW needs Iguchi to do some PR work, we can get him below market

Thome25
10-02-2006, 09:59 AM
Zito is a Scott Boras client so therefore he WILL NOT sign with the White Sox.

Also if the White Sox pick up the player options on Dye and Buehrle they will owe about $100million to 12 players.

$100million was their payroll for the ENTIRE roster this season. They'll owe that much to HALF of their roster next season.

Zito will be too expensive and depending on how many of the season ticket holders renew for 2007, I have a feeling we may only see some minor tweaking for 2007.

Hangar18
10-02-2006, 10:04 AM
Zito is a Scott Boras client so therefore he WILL NOT sign with the White Sox.

Also if the White Sox pick up the player options on Dye and Buehrle they will owe about $100million to 12 players.

$100million was their payroll for the ENTIRE roster this season. They'll owe that much to HALF of their roster next season.

Zito will be too expensive and depending on how many of the season ticket holders renew for 2007, I have a feeling we may only see wholesale changes for 2007.


wont some big ticket contracts come off the books in a couple years helping alleviate this??

caulfield12
10-02-2006, 10:05 AM
Zito is a Scott Boras client so therefore he WILL NOT sign with the White Sox.

Also if the White Sox pick up the player options on Dye and Buehrle they will owe about $100million to 12 players.

$100million was their payroll for the ENTIRE roster this season. They'll owe that much to HALF of their roster next season.

Zito will be too expensive and depending on how many of the season ticket holders renew for 2007, I have a feeling we may only see wholesale changes for 2007.


The $100 million is somewhat misleading, because we're getting about $10 millon back for Vazquez and Thome. I'm sure we're taking Hermanson's contract off the books (for $500,000) as well, and probably the $2-3 million we were going to spend on Pods.

But there are going to be increases for Crede, MacDougal, Thornton, etc. I'm not sure how much Iguchi, Dye and Buehrle are increasing with their options, probably another $2 million there.

They really do need to trade one of their starters to get the flexibility to add some depth to the bullpen and go out and get an experienced LF.

getonbckthr
10-02-2006, 12:49 PM
Me personally I would love to see Young and Matthews join the sox in the offseason
The rediculous fascination with a guy who had 1 good year, which came in a contract year, is a bad idea. No thanks i'll pass.

chaerulez
10-02-2006, 12:59 PM
Alex Gonzalez as the SS? I'd rather have Uribe. But I'd rather have Michael Young than either of course.

southside rocks
10-02-2006, 01:06 PM
Will someone please explain to me the fascination with Juan Pierre? Slowly. Because I just flat-out do not get it.

I believe that the reasons that Juan Pierre's name comes up persistantly are these:

1. He can play left field. The Sox are thought to be in search of a LF.

2. He is fast and steals bases. He stole 58 this season to Pods' 40, and he was CS 20 times to Pods' CS 19 times. To be fair, he did have more at-bats than Pods this season (699 AB for JP, 524 for Pods).

3. He has gotten 200 or more hits in 4 of the last 6 seasons. He does not strike out as much as Pods (38 times for JP, 96 for Pods).

(However, he does not know how to take a walk: he walked 32 times this season and Pods walked 54 times. The entire Cubs team looked very walk-averse this year. In previous years, Pierre walked 55 times, 45 times, and 41 times. The Sox organization may view this as a correctible area.)

4. He does not have an impressive arm, but that is regarded as a "no worse than the current guy" area.

5. Ozzie and Juan Pierre were both on the Marlins in 2003 and Ozzie has expressed approval of Pierre's style of play -- he is a scrambling player who gets on base and makes things happen. Pierre in turn has said that he has tremendous respect for Ozzie and would like to play for him. In 2003, when the two were on the Marlins, Pierre batted .305 and had 204 hits and 65 stolen bases.

6. Pierre turned 29 this past August, which means that he has some productive playing years ahead of him, barring anything unforseen.

7. Juan Pierre is a free agent after the 2006 season, so for the Sox to acquire him, they would not have to deal with the Cubs.

He certainly is Ozzie's kind of player, if we go by stats and comments.

Before anybody jumps on this and tells me what a bad idea it is for the Sox to get Juan Pierre, let me say that I don't have a preference one way or the other in this. I think the Sox could do better, but could also do worse. I'm not pushing for Juan Pierre, I'm just trying to answer Mary's question here. :cool:

TDog
10-02-2006, 03:58 PM
...

I'd love me some Barry Zito. He's amazing, and he grinds on the mound better than any other pitcher, IMO, which is to say that when he gets into trouble, he bears down better than anyone I've seen.


Some team will pay Zito a lot of money, and he will pitch a few terrific games, but overall he will not pitch nearly well enough to justify his salary.

spiffie
10-02-2006, 04:44 PM
Some team will pay Zito a lot of money, and he will pitch a few terrific games, but overall he will not pitch nearly well enough to justify his salary.
26 of his 34 starts saw him give up 4 or less earned runs. 23 of those starts were at least 6 innings. 16 of those were at least 7 innings. So basically every other start you're looking at a guy going to at least the eighth inning with 4 or less runs given up. I can totally see why he's not going to earn his pay.

DumpJerry
10-02-2006, 05:02 PM
I want ZITO in a SOX uniform. And the SOX have an EXCELLENT chance at landing the 26yr old Japanese phenom too. KW needs Iguchi to do some PR work, we can get him below market
We can? According to whom? It's one thing for a position player to come over from Japan having never played in MLB. A pitcher, OTHOH, is different. The position player can play into the position over a few games in April and usually a mistake here and there do not cost a game. Starting pitchers play every 5th day and if they screw up, a whole game is lost. By the time the poor guy gets in 10 games, it's June.

socko82
10-02-2006, 05:04 PM
Zito won't be getting that type of deal, IMO. Recent news said that the New York teams actually AREN'T that interested in him, and that'll significantly lower his price.

What exactly would you expect to the Mets to say. "Yes, Mr. Boras we will definitely be interested in your client because you have a long history of striking fair and reasonable deals" Zito is going to end up a Met. Pedro's out at least half of next year and the Mets are printing money at this point.

The only way Pierre ends up with the Sox is if his agent misjudges the market, overvalues him and he ends up still looking for a job in January. Then I would look for a one year Kenny Lofton type deal at Soxfest. If anyone offers him big money/multiple years he's not going to end up on the southside.

russ99
10-02-2006, 05:54 PM
More like on the Southside of the Bronx.

I hope that Kenny doesn't get caught up in what's sure to be a insane bidding war. Plus, doesn't Boras represent Zito? Case closed.

Sox-o-matic
10-02-2006, 06:08 PM
We can? According to whom? It's one thing for a position player to come over from Japan having never played in MLB. A pitcher, OTHOH, is different. The position player can play into the position over a few games in April and usually a mistake here and there do not cost a game. Starting pitchers play every 5th day and if they screw up, a whole game is lost. By the time the poor guy gets in 10 games, it's June.

Matsuzaka looks very Contreras-like in that he appears to have the stuff and the mound presence to dominate a game. Even if he were to come to the US and become more of a project than an ace, the Sox would love to have him.

The problem w/ him though is all monetarial. JR isn't going to pay off another team for negotiating rights, much less bid against Steinbrenner to do it.

It's too bad, because a rotation with a top 3 of Contreras-Matsuzaka-Vazquez has the potential to be un-****ing-hittable.

russ99
10-02-2006, 06:10 PM
Matsuzaka looks very Contreras-like in that he appears to have the stuff and the mound presence to dominate a game. Even if he were to come to the US and become more of a project than an ace, the Sox would love to have him.

The problem w/ him though is all monetarial. JR isn't going to pay off another team for negotiating rights, much less bid against Steinbrenner to do it.

It's too bad, because a rotation with a top 3 of Contreras-Matsuzaka-Vazquez has the potential to be un-****ing-hittable.

Actually I think it's real funny you mention that, since Cub fans (and the Flubsessed Chicago media) seem to think both Zito and Matsuzaka are possibly going to the North side. Dream on Cub fans. :rolleyes:

Sox-o-matic
10-02-2006, 06:13 PM
Zito certainly has all the ability to win another Cy Young one day, and that is what other teams are going to be paying for.

Still, I'd take any of the Sox current 5 starters over Barry as I think 2006 was just an off year all the way around. I predict 2007 will see Jon continue to be solid, Mark return to the old Mark, and Jose, Freddy, and Javy absolutely dominate.

Ol' No. 2
10-02-2006, 06:26 PM
Actually I think it's real funny you mention that, since Cub fans (and the Flubsessed Chicago media) seem to think both Zito and Matsuzaka are possibly going to the North side. Dream on Cub fans. :rolleyes:I'm pretty sure I've heard Matsuzaka quoted as saying:

それはシカゴのずっと幼いこどものために遊ぶべき私の生涯の夢である。

[It has been my lifelong dream to play for the Chicago Cubs.]

Sox-o-matic
10-02-2006, 06:27 PM
Actually I think it's real funny you mention that, since Cub fans (and the Flubsessed Chicago media) seem to think both Zito and Matsuzaka are possibly going to the North side. Dream on Cub fans. :rolleyes:

They're dumb. If ownership couldn't pony up the extra couple million to get Furcal last year what makes them think ownership would give away millions for negotiating rights?

I think if the Cubs were smart they would sign a decent #3 pitcher who isn't going to cost a fortune, like Mike Mussina for example, and a decent 4th/5th starter (like Adam Eaton or Kip Wells) and let the kids battle for spots. If Prior is healthy for once, the Cubs have 4 spots given to veterans and can look forward to a battle for the fifth spot. If Prior is hurt again, they have enough to get a battle for two spots. Most importantly though, this would mean that if a starter were to go down during the season the team would be able to turn to a minor league starter who actually has big league experience.

Bill Naharodny
10-02-2006, 06:35 PM
I believe that the reasons that Juan Pierre's name comes up persistantly are these:

1. He can play left field. The Sox are thought to be in search of a LF.

2. He is fast and steals bases. He stole 58 this season to Pods' 40, and he was CS 20 times to Pods' CS 19 times. To be fair, he did have more at-bats than Pods this season (699 AB for JP, 524 for Pods).

3. He has gotten 200 or more hits in 4 of the last 6 seasons. He does not strike out as much as Pods (38 times for JP, 96 for Pods).

(However, he does not know how to take a walk: he walked 32 times this season and Pods walked 54 times. The entire Cubs team looked very walk-averse this year. In previous years, Pierre walked 55 times, 45 times, and 41 times. The Sox organization may view this as a correctible area.)

4. He does not have an impressive arm, but that is regarded as a "no worse than the current guy" area.

5. Ozzie and Juan Pierre were both on the Marlins in 2003 and Ozzie has expressed approval of Pierre's style of play -- he is a scrambling player who gets on base and makes things happen. Pierre in turn has said that he has tremendous respect for Ozzie and would like to play for him. In 2003, when the two were on the Marlins, Pierre batted .305 and had 204 hits and 65 stolen bases.

6. Pierre turned 29 this past August, which means that he has some productive playing years ahead of him, barring anything unforseen.

7. Juan Pierre is a free agent after the 2006 season, so for the Sox to acquire him, they would not have to deal with the Cubs.

He certainly is Ozzie's kind of player, if we go by stats and comments.

Before anybody jumps on this and tells me what a bad idea it is for the Sox to get Juan Pierre, let me say that I don't have a preference one way or the other in this. I think the Sox could do better, but could also do worse. I'm not pushing for Juan Pierre, I'm just trying to answer Mary's question here. :cool:


Excellent summary, in my view. He also is an accomplished bunter, which would make him a good lead-off or second hitter, and makes him the type of player we lacked this year.

In addition, one of his attributes is that he seems to see a lot of pitches, which helps the hitters behind him. It's kind of strange. He won't take a walk, but I saw him run up a lot of full counts this year. That's purely anecdotal, of course; I'm sure there are some numbers that would confirm or refute my observations.

And, like Southside Rocks, I'm not evaluating why we should or shouldn't get him, just providing the reasons why he appears (and might appear to Ozzie Guillen or Kenny Williams) as an option for next year.

Gregory Pratt
10-02-2006, 06:36 PM
Zito certainly has all the ability to win another Cy Young one day, and that is what other teams are going to be paying for.

Still, I'd take any of the Sox current 5 starters over Barry as I think 2006 was just an off year all the way around. I predict 2007 will see Jon continue to be solid, Mark return to the old Mark, and Jose, Freddy, and Javy absolutely dominate.

There's nothing to suggest that Javy will suddenly start to dominate. He's a headcase, man. He gets visibly upset with umpires and once you notice that he's angry, he throws it right down the middle and it goes a long way. He's easily our worst-starter because he's mentally inadequate on the mound.

I'd take Barry over all of our guys. He's always healthy, always gives you damn good starts, grinds and bears down, and strikes guys out. He didn't just come out of nowhere, either, like Garland (who I personally believe is good but has been very lucky and blessed by the hand of God) and he doesn't have the injury problems of Contreras and he has no headcase problems like Javier (he bears down better than anyone in baseball, IMO, and I think his RISP numbers back that), and he has no motivation problems like Freddy (though I love Freddy). Re: Buehrle. He's simply better than Mark.

likeawarlord
10-02-2006, 07:00 PM
They're dumb. If ownership couldn't pony up the extra couple million to get Furcal last year what makes them think ownership would give away millions for negotiating rights?

yeah, but do you honestly feel like furcal is worth 13 million a year?

Sox-o-matic
10-02-2006, 08:45 PM
yeah, but do you honestly feel like furcal is worth 13 million a year?

Yes, if you're already prepared to offer 12 or so.

Sox-o-matic
10-02-2006, 09:15 PM
There's nothing to suggest that Javy will suddenly start to dominate. He's a headcase, man. He gets visibly upset with umpires and once you notice that he's angry, he throws it right down the middle and it goes a long way. He's easily our worst-starter because he's mentally inadequate on the mound.

I'd take Barry over all of our guys. He's always healthy, always gives you damn good starts, grinds and bears down, and strikes guys out. He didn't just come out of nowhere, either, like Garland (who I personally believe is good but has been very lucky and blessed by the hand of God) and he doesn't have the injury problems of Contreras and he has no headcase problems like Javier (he bears down better than anyone in baseball, IMO, and I think his RISP numbers back that), and he has no motivation problems like Freddy (though I love Freddy). Re: Buehrle. He's simply better than Mark.

Isn't that what Zito often gets criticized for out West?

On Javy:

Apr 2-1 3.67
May 4-2 3.99
June 2-1 7.50
July 1-2 6.82
Aug 2-2 3.41
Sept/Oct 0-4 4.27

He pitched over 200 innings and led the Sox in strikeouts
16 out of 32 starts have been quality starts (50%)

He had a bad June and a bad July, and his season ERA as a whole has been partially inflated by a ****ty bullpen failing to strand inherted runners.

I think if he stays with the delivery he had during the second half and stays mainly with his fastballs and change, he will have a very good season next year. Obviously, this has probably been the same thing he's been told during his whole career, but I think it is hard to bet against a guy with that kind of ability.

Gregory Pratt
10-02-2006, 10:07 PM
Isn't that what Zito often gets criticized for out West?

No. No one thinks Zito is a headcase. At least, not like Vazquez is. People think he's eccentric because he believes that one has the power to change the world with one's thought, though.

Zito doesn't let baserunners bother him. He shuts down offenses. Javier? He goes nuts.

As far as you saying his bad season ERA is a result of the bullpen/a bad beginning, I think you're wrong. It's a result of Javy being Javy. He's been a mediocrity all his life because he can't get it together between the ears.

Regardless of that, you asked if Zito had motivation problems out west, as well as whether or not he was a headcase: no. He has made every career start. Every five days. Gives you a damn good chance to win in all of his games. It's lovely.

I envy whatever team gets him next.

southside rocks
10-02-2006, 10:25 PM
No. No one thinks Zito is a headcase. At least, not like Vazquez is. People think he's eccentric because he believes that one has the power to change the world with one's thought, though.

Zito doesn't let baserunners bother him. He shuts down offenses. Javier? He goes nuts.

As far as you saying his bad season ERA is a result of the bullpen/a bad beginning, I think you're wrong. It's a result of Javy being Javy. He's been a mediocrity all his life because he can't get it together between the ears.

Regardless of that, you asked if Zito had motivation problems out west, as well as whether or not he was a headcase: no. He has made every career start. Every five days. Gives you a damn good chance to win in all of his games. It's lovely.

I envy whatever team gets him next.

I think I agree with you about Vazquez. He has great stuff -- his potential was spotted years ago by a number of teams, wasn't it? -- but he undoes himself mentally. I'm torn between thinking that he will be able to put it all together one day and be a hell of a pitcher when he does, and thinking that a pitcher who has no confidence and then finds confidence can lose that confidence again with no warning. Know what I mean?

The pitchers who are real nutters, like Mike Marshall and Jim Bouton and from what you say Barry Zito -- I think they're more likely to have consistent success. They think, but not about stuff that diminishes their effectiveness. And a good pitcher has to have an insane amount of confidence. Vazquez ... I don't think he has that or has the ability to have that.

OTOH, I could be totally wrong, and JV could be the 2007 Cy Young award winner! Here's hoping.

Gregory Pratt
10-02-2006, 10:29 PM
I think I agree with you about Vazquez. He has great stuff -- his potential was spotted years ago by a number of teams, wasn't it? -- but he undoes himself mentally. I'm torn between thinking that he will be able to put it all together one day and be a hell of a pitcher when he does, and thinking that a pitcher who has no confidence and then finds confidence can lose that confidence again with no warning. Know what I mean?

The pitchers who are real nutters, like Mike Marshall and Jim Bouton and from what you say Barry Zito -- I think they're more likely to have consistent success. They think, but not about stuff that diminishes their effectiveness. And a good pitcher has to have an insane amount of confidence. Vazquez ... I don't think he has that or has the ability to have that.

OTOH, I could be totally wrong, and JV could be the 2007 Cy Young award winner! Here's hoping.

There's nothing nutty about Zito's spirituality.
Not to get this Roadhoused, but there's nothing wrong with believing in Metaphysical things and saying that your thoughts will shape circumstances. It doesn't make him nuts.

Although, I really think that you and I are ultimately on the same page, and I think I know what you mean by a nutter -- I just don't like the term.

I don't think Javier will ever put it together. He's too old for that. If he was finally going to learn that it's okay if you're squeezed a little, you don't have to throw it down the middle just because you're angry at the umpire and want to make a point about strikes, he'd have learned it long ago.

Old dogs don't learn new tricks.
Aging pitchers don't suddenly forget that they're incapable of staying cool during a game.

Sargeant79
10-03-2006, 12:03 AM
I don't think Javier will ever put it together. He's too old for that. If he was finally going to learn that it's okay if you're squeezed a little, you don't have to throw it down the middle just because you're angry at the umpire and want to make a point about strikes, he'd have learned it long ago.

Old dogs don't learn new tricks.
Aging pitchers don't suddenly forget that they're incapable of staying cool during a game.

While I think you are probably correct about this, there have been several guys like Chris Carpenter and Curt Schilling out there for whom the light bulb went on around age 29-30. A lot of pitchers with great stuff just don't learn how to pitch until they've been doing it at the major league level for a good amount of years. Vazquez just turned 30 this past season and still spends a good amount of time 'throwing' as opposed to pitching. Because of this, I still hold out some hope that Javy will figure out how to get out of jams, particularly when facing a lineup the third time around. If he learns how to do that, being a Cy Young contender isn't that far-fetched.

Gregory Pratt
10-03-2006, 12:56 AM
While I think you are probably correct about this, there have been several guys like Chris Carpenter and Curt Schilling out there for whom the light bulb went on around age 29-30. A lot of pitchers with great stuff just don't learn how to pitch until they've been doing it at the major league level for a good amount of years. Vazquez just turned 30 this past season and still spends a good amount of time 'throwing' as opposed to pitching. Because of this, I still hold out some hope that Javy will figure out how to get out of jams, particularly when facing a lineup the third time around. If he learns how to do that, being a Cy Young contender isn't that far-fetched.

Javier Vazquez has the best fastballs in the Major Leagues, IMO, due to the sheer amount of movement on them, coupled with their velocity.
And he's got excellent complimentary pitches. Damn, DAMN good ones.

But he's a nut.

I really don't think he has what it takes mentally, and I think he's not going to snap out of it.

If he does, he most certainly is a contender for the Cy Young, you are right. I hope he does, too, because for NOW, he's our guy, and I hate to see talent waste, but I think that's what'll happen.

MisterB
10-03-2006, 01:51 AM
The rediculous fascination with a guy who had 1 good year, which came in a contract year, is a bad idea. No thanks i'll pass.

I second that. He has his career year at age 32 and I wouldn't bet that he comes close to that again.

likeawarlord
10-03-2006, 03:04 PM
Yes, if you're already prepared to offer 12 or so.

well, i'll agree that since hendry was already offering so much, he should have just bitten the bullet and coughed up the extra money, but i'll go to my grave saying that furcal deserved about 2/3rds that amount.

southside rocks
10-03-2006, 07:08 PM
There's nothing nutty about Zito's spirituality.
Not to get this Roadhoused, but there's nothing wrong with believing in Metaphysical things and saying that your thoughts will shape circumstances. It doesn't make him nuts.

Although, I really think that you and I are ultimately on the same page, and I think I know what you mean by a nutter -- I just don't like the term.

I don't think Javier will ever put it together. He's too old for that. If he was finally going to learn that it's okay if you're squeezed a little, you don't have to throw it down the middle just because you're angry at the umpire and want to make a point about strikes, he'd have learned it long ago.

Old dogs don't learn new tricks.
Aging pitchers don't suddenly forget that they're incapable of staying cool during a game.

Okay. :tongue: That does come across as pejorative, the term I used, so I will amend it to "the pitchers who march to the beat(s) of their own drummers" -- how's that.

I don't disparage anyone's beliefs (providing said beliefs don't rely on the use of weapons or the infliction of pain) and I don't even know anything about Z, so I have no view on what he thinks. Hey, I came of age in the '70's, and am probably closed to Zito in philosophy than I know.

Vazquez is one of the most frustrating phenomenon in baseball: a million-dollar arm and a five-cent brain, as Crash Davis said to Nuke LaLoosh. But Nuke was a kid, and he got the hang of it. :?:

shoelessshaun27!
10-03-2006, 07:18 PM
From Cowley's latest: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/78829,CST-SPT-cowley01.article

WILLIAMS' IDEAL LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Gary Matthews, 2B Iguchi, RF Dye, DH Jim Thome, 1B Paul Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, LF Anderson, SS Juan Uribe; RHP Contreras, LHP Barry Zito, RHP Garland, LHP Buehrle, RHP McCarthy.
GUILLEN'S IDEAL LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Juan Pierre, SS Michael Young, RF Dye, DH Thome, 1B Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, 2B Iguchi, LF Ryan Sweeney; RHP Contreras, LHP Buehrle, RHP Garland, RHP Freddy Garcia, RHP McCarthy.
MOST REALISTIC LINEUP AND ROTATION: CF Pierre, 2B Iguchi, RF Dye, DH Thome, 1B Konerko, C Pierzynski, 3B Crede, LF Anderson, SS Alex Gonzalez; RHP Contreras, LHP Buehrle, RHP Garland, RHP Javier Vazquez, RHP McCarthy.


I like the idea of that Ozzie has, Young and Pierre, they go together like John Lennon and Paul McCartney.

Gregory Pratt
10-03-2006, 09:08 PM
I love Barry Zito. I'm a huge fan. Therefore, I was conflicted today: Zito bombs, his demand goes down this offseason. Zito succeeds, and the NY teams run wild.

Le sigh.

I want Mags back
10-04-2006, 12:55 PM
so according to that article, getting Pierre is realistic