PDA

View Full Version : Clemens accused of taking steroids


Whitesox4ever
09-30-2006, 11:33 PM
Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Miguel Tejada, Brian Roberts, Jay Gibbons and David Segui are accused by Jason Grimsley of using performance-enhancing drugs in an affadavit.


according to rotoworld.com

1951Campbell
09-30-2006, 11:41 PM
Hmm, this could be interesting.

drewcifer
09-30-2006, 11:44 PM
Andy Pettitte? :?:

shoelessshaun27!
09-30-2006, 11:48 PM
Hmm.. I doubt it, definitely not Roger Clemens. I'm getting sick of all these people accusing people for steroids. They should mind their own business and let the officials take care of it. On the other hand maybe we should keep the rumors up, because I don't think the officials will do anything to hurt big name players. My proof of that is Barry Bonds has not been suspended or in jail yet and some of the people that accused him of use are facing jail time.
We need to test for everything possible in the majors, I don't care how much money it costs i want to have real stats and real players. You can't trust anybody in baseball with this steroid stuff. One guy gets accused so goes and accuses a bunch of other people. Some of baseball's biggest stars need too grow up, they have to learn to go down by themselves and take the heat for their actions. I believe some of baseballs biggest stars are also some of baseball's biggest criminals. The last time I checked criminals don't belong in Major League baseball. These guys are not only breaking the rules, they are breaking the laws. Bud Selig needs some sort of redemption and this is his chance. Steroids are very bad for baseball and that also goes for any other sport. It's sad when somebody says baseball and one of the first things they think about are steroids. It is getting old fast and needs to be stopped I can't stand to see these guys breaking milestones that belong to great "clean" players.

Whitesox4ever
09-30-2006, 11:52 PM
According to the affidavit shown to the Los Angeles Times, Grimsley told federal investigators that Clemens and Pettitte "used athletic performance-enhancing drugs." Grimsley also said that Tejada used anabolic steroids.

Grimsley was detained in May after he allegedly received an illegal shipment of human growth hormones that was tracked to his Scottsdale, Ariz., home by a task force of federal agents investigating drug use in professional baseball, the affidavit said. For a short time, Grimsley secretly cooperated with investigators before retaining a lawyer.
Clemens and Pettitte were teammates of Grimsley on the Yankees from 1999-2000. Grimsley was a member of the Orioles in 2005, when he played alongside Tejada, Gibbons and Roberts. Grimsley and Segui were both members of the 2004 Orioles.

Trav
09-30-2006, 11:54 PM
None of those players surprise me. Then again, I can't think of any players that would surprise me. Thanks MLB!

Whitesox4ever
09-30-2006, 11:56 PM
None of those players surprise me. Then again, I can't think of any players that would surprise me. Thanks MLB!

I would be totally shocked if David Wells took steroids

zmz723
09-30-2006, 11:59 PM
I would be totally shocked if David Wells took steroids
or juan pierre

Trav
10-01-2006, 12:13 AM
What's the over/under on how many threads are started on this topic?

How about the over/under for posts bashing the new thread starters?



Anyways, Wells or Pierre or anyone else could be taking some type of PED and it wouldn't surprise me. Steroids don't just build you up they also keep you going. The latest US cycling scandle guy didn't look like he would be taking PEDs but he was. Those track and field folks are pretty thin and they take them. I stand by my statement that no player would surprise me if they came clean.

Well, the coming clean part would shock me.

Gremlin3
10-01-2006, 12:16 AM
Hmm.. I doubt it, definitely not Roger Clemens.

Sorry, had to fix that for you.

Whitesox4ever
10-01-2006, 12:18 AM
If it is true about Clemens taking steroids. I would be very disappointed that possibility the best pitcher and one of the best hitters( Bonds) in MLB history are both cheaters..

DickAllen72
10-01-2006, 12:24 AM
If it is true about Clemens taking steroids. I would be very disappointed that possibility the best pitcher and one of the best hitters( Bonds) in MLB history are both cheaters..

Babe Ruth was a better pitcher than Clemens and a better hitter than Bonds, and he did it on hot dogs, beer and broads. Makes you appreciate the Bambino even more. He truly was the greatest.

HotelWhiteSox
10-01-2006, 12:31 AM
Hmm.. I doubt it, definitely not Roger Clemens. I'm getting sick of all these people accusing people for steroids. They should mind their own business and let the officials take care of it.

Are you serious about this :o: How can anybody surprise you? I can't believe baseball, MLBPA, and Uncle Bud still have some people under their spell. Have you followed the Grimsley story. The affidavit had to do with "the officials taking care of it", asking Grimsley where he got his stuff, his sources/referrals, and who he knew of doing it.

Also, to go furthur on how I don't know how people can be surprised by a name. A career bunter got caught with this stuff. You can't measure it with stats. It can have other effects (healing for example), and may help guys who couldn't make it in the minors get to the majors. All of these guys are ****ing built. It doesn't show as much with their jerseys and on TV. I was shocked when I saw Joe Crede in a tshirt. Let's face it. These guys are millionaires. If you go to someone in the world and say "Would you inject this into you for a million dollars?", how many people would say no? These guys cheat on their wives regularly and do plenty of other drugs, I'm sure they want to keep the integrity of the game :rolleyes: Not to mention they try to get every advantage possible to help their stats/cause for money, including fans in stadiums and massaging bats. And no, players who wear or have worn White Sox uniforms aren't immune to this, I'd be more surprised if the majority haven't used steroids or HGH at this point

FarWestChicago
10-01-2006, 12:31 AM
Hmm.. I doubt it, definitely not Roger Clemens.Are you serious? :?:

The miracle would be if Clemens wasn't a 'roider. Every single bit of circumstantial evidence points to him being quite the chemist.

thomas35forever
10-01-2006, 01:09 AM
I would be totally shocked if David Wells took steroids
Fixed it for you.

Lip Man 1
10-01-2006, 01:26 AM
Segui, when Grimsley's allegations came out, appeared on ESPN and explained his doctor had perscribed HGH for him through the 2004 season due to his body's low production of the natural hormone.

He had the paperwork to 'prove' his comments.

Take it for what it's worth.

Lip

TDog
10-01-2006, 01:30 AM
Babe Ruth was a better pitcher than Clemens and a better hitter than Bonds, and he did it on hot dogs, beer and broads. Makes you appreciate the Bambino even more. He truly was the greatest.

Beer was illegal during most of Babe Ruth's career. He hit less than 100 of his home runs before and after the 13 years of Prohibition. Prohibition wouldn't have stopped him, though. He was drinking beer before he was 10. He probably did cocaine, which was legal and considered a wonder drug by many when he broke into the big leagues, and it could have been used to enhance performance. Eddie Collins didn't even drink, but he was no Babe Ruth.

Baseball isn't the only sport with players doing drugs, of course. But with other sports, people are willing to look the other way.

fusillirob1983
10-01-2006, 01:38 AM
Beer was illegal during most of Babe Ruth's career. He hit less than 100 of his home runs before and after the 13 years of Prohibition. Prohibition wouldn't have stopped him, though. He was drinking beer before he was 10. He probably did cocaine, which was legal and considered a wonder drug by many when he broke into the big leagues, and it could have been used to enhance performance. Eddie Collins didn't even drink, but he was no Babe Ruth.

Baseball isn't the only sport with players doing drugs, of course. But with other sports, people are willing to look the other way.

I'm not going to deny anything you're saying because it's all true, but I don't think beer is a performance enhancing drug.

Myrtle72
10-01-2006, 01:54 AM
Well gee, that would certainly be a pretty harsh blow to an already hurting Orioles organization.

chisox56
10-01-2006, 03:06 AM
I hope it is true, clemens needs to be takin down a peg ,and yes segui already admitted to it last spring or summer whenever that happened it seems like so long ago. I hope clemens and pettite did it, I like controversy and that will add to it.

Grzegorz
10-01-2006, 07:07 AM
Hmm.. I doubt it, definitely not Roger Clemens. I'm getting sick of all these people accusing people for steroids.

I've heard the Clemens rumor for some time...

As screwed up as this world and this country may be there is still the belief that in America a man is innocent until proven guilty.

The Racehorse
10-01-2006, 08:53 AM
As stated by a few already, I'd be more surprised if Clemens wasn't taking drugs of some sort... 44 year old bodies don't snap back that easily.

southside rocks
10-01-2006, 09:01 AM
Hmm.. I doubt it, definitely not Roger Clemens. I'm getting sick of all these people accusing people for steroids. They should mind their own business and let the officials take care of it. On the other hand maybe we should keep the rumors up, because I don't think the officials will do anything to hurt big name players. My proof of that is Barry Bonds has not been suspended or in jail yet and some of the people that accused him of use are facing jail time.


Huh? What exactly does that "prove"? :?:

Are you referring to the reporters who wrote the book "Game of Shadows" and the possibility that they could be jailed for refusing to reveal their sources?

Their book, BTW, is an outstanding example of investigative reporting. Did you read it?

fquaye149
10-01-2006, 09:58 AM
I'm not going to deny anything you're saying because it's all true, but I don't think beer is a performance enhancing drug.

the mick might disagree

chaerulez
10-01-2006, 11:09 AM
Are you serious? :?:

The miracle would be if Clemens wasn't a 'roider. Every single bit of circumstantial evidence points to him being quite the chemist.

Finally, voices of reason! I was scared to open this thread and then have to read a bunch of posts by Clemens apologists or fanboys. Infact looking at stats alone, you can pinpoint when he probably started using. As much of a loudmouth former Red Sox's GM Dan Duquette, he probably would've been right in making that "twlight of his career" comment about Clemens- had Clemens not taken HGH. From 1993 to 1996, his last years at Boston, Clemens struggled with injuries and failed to reach 30 starts except for one year. He posted ERAs over 4 in two of those years, something he hadn't done since his rookie year. His ERA of 3.63 in 1996 was the highest ERA of his career that wasn't in the 4's. Then he went to Toronto, which is when I suspect he started using. He won 20 games both years and made no less than 33 starts, and had ERAs well under 3 both years. Then he went to the Yankees, where it was widely known he couldn't adjust to the pressure playing for the Yankees at first (much like A-Rod today). Yet at his upper 30s he still produced seasons that were very good, even though his velocity should've been dropping. Now looking at age 40+ and what like of seasons he's been able to produce, I think he is on HGH. I find it ironic how around ESPN and such have always talked about his intense workout and how Pettitte was his workout partner and that's why they went to Houston together, to remain workout buddies.

As for all the names on the list. Pettitte, not surprising either, he's Clemens good friend after all. Tejada, I'm kind of dissapointed because I'm a Tejada fan, but he was named by Canseco as well. Even though Canseco was an attention hog, he's been pretty much right about everyone he named. Brian Roberts did increase his home run total from 5, 4, to 18 in his first three full seasons. As for Gibbons he's always been a power guy, you can't get clues from his stats, but I don't know why Grimsley would be throwing around random names. And finally Segui already admitted a few months ago he took HGH on a doctor's prescription. I don't know how believable that is, but that's what he said. The question remains I guess is, will the combination of Clemens ass lickers in the form of national media and MLB themselves (after all Selig loves him so much he pretty much abused his power to give Clemens an all star spot unfairly) let this get investigated or will it be swept under the rug?

gobears1987
10-01-2006, 11:20 AM
or juan pierre
Scott Podsednike took them last October!!!

samram
10-01-2006, 11:20 AM
Finally, voices of reason! I was scared to open this thread and then have to read a bunch of posts by Clemens apologists or fanboys. Infact looking at stats alone, you can pinpoint when he probably started using. As much of a loudmouth former Red Sox's GM Dan Duquette, he probably would've been right in making that "twlight of his career" comment about Clemens- had Clemens not taken HGH. From 1993 to 1996, his last years at Boston, Clemens struggled with injuries and failed to reach 30 starts except for one year. He posted ERAs over 4 in two of those years, something he hadn't done since his rookie year. His ERA of 3.63 in 1996 was the highest ERA of his career that wasn't in the 4's. Then he went to Toronto, which is when I suspect he started using. He won 20 games both years and made no less than 33 starts, and had ERAs well under 3 both years. Then he went to the Yankees, where it was widely known he couldn't adjust to the pressure playing for the Yankees at first (much like A-Rod today). Yet at his upper 30s he still produced seasons that were very good, even though his velocity should've been dropping. Now looking at age 40+ and what like of seasons he's been able to produce, I think he is on HGH. I find it ironic how around ESPN and such have always talked about his intense workout and how Pettitte was his workout partner and that's why they went to Houston together, to remain workout buddies.

As for all the names on the list. Pettitte, not surprising either, he's Clemens good friend after all. Tejada, I'm kind of dissapointed because I'm a Tejada fan, but he was named by Canseco as well. Even though Canseco was an attention hog, he's been pretty much right about everyone he named. Brian Roberts did increase his home run total from 5, 4, to 18 in his first three full seasons. As for Gibbons he's always been a power guy, you can't get clues from his stats, but I don't know why Grimsley would be throwing around random names. And finally Segui already admitted a few months ago he took HGH on a doctor's prescription. I don't know how believable that is, but that's what he said. The question remains I guess is, will the combination of Clemens ass lickers in the form of national media and MLB themselves (after all Selig loves him so much he pretty much abused his power to give Clemens an all star spot unfairly) let this get investigated or will it be swept under the rug?

Great post, chaerulez. Clemens is the poster boy for why the roids are so tempting. This guy made $15 million dollars at the age of 43/44 for four months of pitching! And he may get the same next year if he decides around May that he's bored hanging out with the kids.

As for the other names, stats will not, in many cases, be a good indicator of use because the guy may have started in the minors and we can't see the progression. Needless to say, there are a lot of guys we all suspect of using. I think Jeff Novitsky is doing a fine job uncovering those who have used.

chaerulez
10-01-2006, 11:20 AM
Hmm.. I doubt it, definitely not Roger Clemens. I'm getting sick of all these people accusing people for steroids. They should mind their own business and let the officials take care of it. On the other hand maybe we should keep the rumors up, because I don't think the officials will do anything to hurt big name players. My proof of that is Barry Bonds has not been suspended or in jail yet and some of the people that accused him of use are facing jail time.
We need to test for everything possible in the majors, I don't care how much money it costs i want to have real stats and real players. You can't trust anybody in baseball with this steroid stuff. One guy gets accused so goes and accuses a bunch of other people. Some of baseball's biggest stars need too grow up, they have to learn to go down by themselves and take the heat for their actions. I believe some of baseballs biggest stars are also some of baseball's biggest criminals. The last time I checked criminals don't belong in Major League baseball. These guys are not only breaking the rules, they are breaking the laws. Bud Selig needs some sort of redemption and this is his chance. Steroids are very bad for baseball and that also goes for any other sport. It's sad when somebody says baseball and one of the first things they think about are steroids. It is getting old fast and needs to be stopped I can't stand to see these guys breaking milestones that belong to great "clean" players.

You know, I never actually read your full post, only the first couple things you mentioned about Clemens and stopped. When I went back to reread the thread after my reply to make sure I said everything wanted to. First of all what "officials" should we let take care of it? Selig? Selig seems to be afraid of the MLBPA and he's just a dope all around. George Mitchell? You know that was just a PR fluff move right? Players won't even talk to George Mitchell.

Do you know where these latest accusations are coming from? It's from sworn testimony against Jason Grimsely. Grimsley was caught in a HGH sting operation by federal agents. Federal agents who probably threatened him with jail time if he didn't start naming names or cooperate. When that story first broke, it was revealed the feds wanted Grimsely to wear a wire to catch Barry Bonds with steroid involvement, which he refused to do. So these accusations aren't coming from the media or just some random guy. And as far I as know, anytime a player has named another player in steroids, it has turned out to be true for the most part.

As for the comment about jail time, I don't think you understand the entire situation comopletely. You admit steroids are a problem. Then you also admit you suspect a lot of stars in MLB taking steriods. But you don't want people to accuse other people. How else are we going to find who used? Players like Bonds, Giambi, and Sheffield never would have one day just come out and said, "Hey I've been using steriods for most of my career, just thought you'd like to know!"

Myrtle72
10-01-2006, 11:54 AM
Scott Podsednike took them last October!!!

It all makes sense. That's how he was able to belt that game two home run.

PaulDrake
10-01-2006, 12:17 PM
Beer was illegal during most of Babe Ruth's career. He hit less than 100 of his home runs before and after the 13 years of Prohibition. Prohibition wouldn't have stopped him, though. He was drinking beer before he was 10. He probably did cocaine, which was legal and considered a wonder drug by many when he broke into the big leagues, and it could have been used to enhance performance. Eddie Collins didn't even drink, but he was no Babe Ruth.

Baseball isn't the only sport with players doing drugs, of course. But with other sports, people are willing to look the other way.Babe Ruth made his debut with the Boston Red Sox on July 11, 1914. The Harrison Narcotics Tax Act, passed in December of 1914 outlawed cocaine use in the US. It had an almost immediate effect on the supply of the drug.

Kub_Killer_15
10-01-2006, 01:59 PM
Its sad how MLB is in my era, My favorite players getting accused of taking enhanced substances which probly is true. So many professional athletes are fakes now and don't deserve to be making as much money or being looked up to by kids.

JUribe1989
10-01-2006, 02:21 PM
Jason Grimsley can rot in hell. He lost all his dignity awhile ago. There's no way Andy Pettite, Jay Gibbons, Brian Roberts, or Miguel Tejada were on steroids. You talk about some guys who worked their asses off for some mop up **** relief pitcher to slander them away. **** Grimsley.:angry:

DoItForDanPasqua
10-01-2006, 02:27 PM
Babe Ruth was a better pitcher than Clemens and a better hitter than Bonds, and he did it on hot dogs, beer and broads. Makes you appreciate the Bambino even more. He truly was the greatest.

Agreed.

DoItForDanPasqua
10-01-2006, 02:28 PM
Two of the Astro's starters were doping up and the Sox still swept them. Maybe they needed something stronger.

soxfan80
10-01-2006, 03:51 PM
Jason Grimsley can rot in hell. He lost all his dignity awhile ago. There's no way Andy Pettite, Jay Gibbons, Brian Roberts, or Miguel Tejada were on steroids. You talk about some guys who worked their asses off for some mop up **** relief pitcher to slander them away. **** Grimsley.:angry:well, he DID REFUSE to co-operate until the feds decided to throw him in jail if he didnt comply

also, notice how you dont defend clemens.

Gregory Pratt
10-01-2006, 04:17 PM
Jason Grimsley can rot in hell. He lost all his dignity awhile ago. There's no way Andy Pettite, Jay Gibbons, Brian Roberts, or Miguel Tejada were on steroids. You talk about some guys who worked their asses off for some mop up **** relief pitcher to slander them away. **** Grimsley.:angry:

I MIGHT believe that Pettitte is clean.
I don't buy any of the others.

samram
10-01-2006, 04:32 PM
Jason Grimsley can rot in hell. He lost all his dignity awhile ago. There's no way Andy Pettite, Jay Gibbons, Brian Roberts, or Miguel Tejada were on steroids. You talk about some guys who worked their asses off for some mop up **** relief pitcher to slander them away. **** Grimsley.:angry:

Why would he just make accusations up? You will be one of those who is stunned when Novitsky gets to the bottom of this and you start hearing names you really aren't going to like hearing.

Trav
10-01-2006, 04:44 PM
Lip, good point about the Rx note. I have a feeling that we will be seeing this more an more as the speculation coninues.

oeo
10-01-2006, 04:58 PM
Jason Grimsley can rot in hell. He lost all his dignity awhile ago. There's no way Andy Pettite, Jay Gibbons, Brian Roberts, or Miguel Tejada were on steroids. You talk about some guys who worked their asses off for some mop up **** relief pitcher to slander them away. **** Grimsley.:angry:

How exactly is there 'no way'? It sounds pretty possible to me.

You've never been a major league baseball player, or seen what they do off the field. So...you're right and the guy that was actually teammates with some of these guys is wrong. Okay...:rolleyes:

goon
10-01-2006, 05:40 PM
i don't believe clemens etc. were accused of using steroids, just performance enhancing drugs, which is probably HGH. the only one accused of using steroids is tejada and that doesn't surprise me, nor does the identity of the rest of the people accused. however, going back the HGH comment, Human Growth Hormone and Steroids are NOT the same thing.

grimsley has connections to each one of these players and the fact that segui has come out on ESPN and stated that he used HGH, though in his case it was perscribed by a doctor, makes me feel that there maybe some truth to what grimsley said.

October26
10-01-2006, 05:59 PM
Two of the Astro's starters were doping up and the Sox still swept them. Maybe they needed something stronger.


:rolling: Good point.

guillen4life13
10-01-2006, 08:06 PM
As much as I don't like Grimsley, I'd still take his word on this stuff. Tejada was already named by Canseco. The fact that he's been named again sends out real big warning signs.

And to the guy who mentioned how absurd the idea of players "upholding the integrity of the game,": Thank you! You nailed it.

These people are famous. They can, within reason, live a rockstar lifestyle. They'll say what they need to say to the press to make themselves seem like good guys. Remember that these are the same hard partying jocks you knew from high school. They play the game because they're good at it and it makes them lots of money. And sure, it's fun. But when you dangle so much money, the incentive to get an extra edge is very tempting. So when Canseco said that more people are using it than not, it would not surprise me if that were actually true. People are competing with each other. If someone gets an unnatural edge and the rest can also get that edge, then they will try to get that edge. Whenever I see anyone (ANYONE) who is truly noticably bigger than they were in the early part of their career, I figure something is up. Or if, within a year, their power numbers drastically go up (Brady Anderson), or go down (Palmeiro, J Lopez, Sammy Sosa, etc.).

Frank, to me, is the exception. He has always been big, and his family is big, and the guy played football (TE) in college. His drops in numbers generally went together with injuries, be it his bone spur, triceps, or ankle. But if it were to come out, I would not be so fast to say that the accusation is wrong. I'd want to see the evidence. Floyd Landis has taught me that as much as I like someone, they too are capable of doing something you don't support.

And this whole innocent until proven guilty thing is nonsense. I think it's guilty until proven innocent. As much as we want to believe that these guys are role models and such, they aren't. They think that whatever doesn't see the press or authorities is fine. Lots of people are like that. Kids are like that. It's only wrong if you get caught.

Brian26
10-01-2006, 08:37 PM
Jason Grimsley can rot in hell. He lost all his dignity awhile ago. There's no way Andy Pettite, Jay Gibbons, Brian Roberts, or Miguel Tejada were on steroids. You talk about some guys who worked their asses off for some mop up **** relief pitcher to slander them away. **** Grimsley.:angry:

Don't be so quick to judge or come to conclusions. There certainly is much circumstantial evidence that implicates all of these guys.

Trav
10-01-2006, 08:47 PM
Guillen4life, good points. Tejada was also named by Palmero. That is three people who say he was / is using. He also played for the A's.

Myrtle72
10-01-2006, 09:05 PM
Just curious:

If the investigation proves (or close to it) that these players are using or have used in the past...

what happens to them?

Trav
10-01-2006, 09:10 PM
I would guess that it depends on who gets caught and/or how many players get caught. Selig will do only the minimum, IMO. Current players would be suspended under the steroid policy I'm gussing. As for stats/records, wins/losses I bet they stay.

SOXandILLINI
10-01-2006, 09:26 PM
Are you serious? :?:

The miracle would be if Clemens wasn't a 'roider. Every single bit of circumstantial evidence points to him being quite the chemist.
i've always thought clemens was on the juice, wouldn't surprise me at all.

SluggersAway
10-01-2006, 10:17 PM
I think the players have more to fear from the feds than MLB. Selig will never damage the "integrity" of the game by really getting to the bottom of all of this. But, the feds have shown they want to prosecute this stuff pretty severely, even going so far as to ask Grimsley to wear a wire when talking to Bonds.

Nothing will happen unless the feds get some real evidence of illegality. Highly doubtful at this point since HGH isn't even traceable.

AZChiSoxFan
10-01-2006, 10:47 PM
Hmm.. I doubt it, definitely not Roger Clemens.

Sure. Just because the guy has a lights out season at age 43 (or whatever it was last year), there's no reason to believe that he, unlike any other pitcher in the history of the game, couldn't defy father time.

Soxfanspcu11
10-01-2006, 10:51 PM
Hmm.. I doubt it, definitely not Roger Clemens. I'm getting sick of all these people accusing people for steroids. They should mind their own business and let the officials take care of it. On the other hand maybe we should keep the rumors up, because I don't think the officials will do anything to hurt big name players. My proof of that is Barry Bonds has not been suspended or in jail yet and some of the people that accused him of use are facing jail time.
We need to test for everything possible in the majors, I don't care how much money it costs i want to have real stats and real players. You can't trust anybody in baseball with this steroid stuff. One guy gets accused so goes and accuses a bunch of other people. Some of baseball's biggest stars need too grow up, they have to learn to go down by themselves and take the heat for their actions. I believe some of baseballs biggest stars are also some of baseball's biggest criminals. The last time I checked criminals don't belong in Major League baseball. These guys are not only breaking the rules, they are breaking the laws. Bud Selig needs some sort of redemption and this is his chance. Steroids are very bad for baseball and that also goes for any other sport. It's sad when somebody says baseball and one of the first things they think about are steroids. It is getting old fast and needs to be stopped I can't stand to see these guys breaking milestones that belong to great "clean" players.


:?: Why do some people keep saying that these steroid accusations are false??? I personally am fed up with that. While us fans don't know the entire truth, the subject has to be looked at rationally.

Everyone got so down on Canseco because they believed that he was lying and was just out for the publicity. While he was probably definetly out for the pub., he certainly was not lying.

Out of all the classy individuals who testified before Congress in March 2005, he has been proven to be the only one telling the truth, or close to it. And that really is saying something.

Flight #24
10-01-2006, 11:10 PM
Out of all the classy individuals who testified before Congress in March 2005, he has been proven to be the only one telling the truth, or close to it. And that really is saying something.

Ahem. I seem to recall there being one guy who was both truthful and clean.


:hurt "yeah, who was that guy again?"

shoelessshaun27!
10-01-2006, 11:16 PM
Are you referring to the reporters who wrote the book "Game of Shadows" and the possibility that they could be jailed for refusing to reveal their sources?


Yes i am referring to the book. every major league should have to read it.

Sox-o-matic
10-02-2006, 12:07 AM
Yes i am referring to the book. every major league should have to read it.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:3sKJn7iZal6GmM:http://www.unlikelymoose.com/images/more/sammy/SAMMY15a.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.unlikelymoose.com/images/more/sammy/SAMMY15a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.unlikelymoose.com/more/smile/sammy.html&h=617&w=441&sz=43&hl=en&start=11&tbnid=3sKJn7iZal6GmM:&tbnh=136&tbnw=97&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsammy%2Bsosa%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%2 6lr%3D%26safe%3Doff)
"Lo siento. No reado Ingles."

TDog
10-02-2006, 06:50 AM
Babe Ruth made his debut with the Boston Red Sox on July 11, 1914. The Harrison Narcotics Tax Act, passed in December of 1914 outlawed cocaine use in the US. It had an almost immediate effect on the supply of the drug.

The following lines come from a song from a 1934 Cole Porter musical:

Some get a kick from cocain
i'm sure that if i took even one sniff
that would bore me terrificly too
yet i get a kick out of you

Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking alcohol. There is plenty of documentation to show that drug laws didn't eliminate recreational use of cocaine by the people who had money during the Great Depression. It didn't stop people from singing about it (although most available recordings have purged the line). It is logical to believe that Babe Ruth would have been offered cocaine while clubbing in New York City.

chaerulez
10-02-2006, 08:53 AM
:?: Why do some people keep saying that these steroid accusations are false??? I personally am fed up with that. While us fans don't know the entire truth, the subject has to be looked at rationally.

Everyone got so down on Canseco because they believed that he was lying and was just out for the publicity. While he was probably definetly out for the pub., he certainly was not lying.

Out of all the classy individuals who testified before Congress in March 2005, he has been proven to be the only one telling the truth, or close to it. And that really is saying something.

I suppose Curt Schilling was also telling the truth (aside from Frank), but he came off (and is) as a complete dochue bag that day. He ripped Canseco and basically called him a rat, but yet said he doesn't want steroids in the game. Then what's the solution Curt? I remember in a bizarre way he started off his Congress testimony about his brothers in the armed forces. Okay, so you come from a patriotic family that has served the United States, is that suppose to give us a favorable opinion of you automatically? I don't think Schilling has ever taken steroids, but as a jackass and asswipe close to Bonds/Giambi/Sheffield level to me.

PaulDrake
10-02-2006, 09:26 AM
The following lines come from a song from a 1934 Cole Porter musical:

Some get a kick from cocain
i'm sure that if i took even one sniff
that would bore me terrificly too
yet i get a kick out of you

Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking alcohol. There is plenty of documentation to show that drug laws didn't eliminate recreational use of cocaine by the people who had money during the Great Depression. It didn't stop people from singing about it (although most available recordings have purged the line). It is logical to believe that Babe Ruth would have been offered cocaine while clubbing in New York City. Cole Porter is my favorite song writer and that is one his best. Of course, the Harrison Act didn't stop all cocaine use, but an objective look at the history would show that the landscape changed drastically after that law was passed. Prior to Harrison you could get just about anything that you wanted with a minimum of effort. After that, I don't think the nation was awash in cocaine like today, or like booze was in the Roaring Twenties. Surely it could have been obtained by a New York baseball player in that era, but again I don't think it was a big thing with athletes in that time period. If you have some historical evidence to the contrary I'd be interested in reading it. I don't claim to know for sure, I just don't think Babe Ruth or many other baseball players were into cocaine in the 20s and 30s.

palehozenychicty
10-02-2006, 11:44 AM
Are you serious? :?:

The miracle would be if Clemens wasn't a 'roider. Every single bit of circumstantial evidence points to him being quite the chemist.

Exactly. I don't care how well you train, to throw 95+ at age 44 with his size growth looms suspicion.

Mickster
10-02-2006, 11:51 AM
Just curious:

If the investigation proves (or close to it) that these players are using or have used in the past...

what happens to them?

Absolutely nothing. :(:

Luke
10-02-2006, 11:52 AM
The biggest knock against Clemens in all of this is his quote where he says he was "tested plenty of times...and passed every test"

Of course he was tested...for steroids, not HGH. Someone who knows the CBA better than I do might contradict me, but I'm 99% sure that the league doesn't test for HGH only steroids right? HGH can only be detected in a blood test, which is not permitted per the CBA.

My point is he used very specific wording, and a very careful denial. All these players are entitled to defend themselves, but they sound eerily similar to the players who jumped on Canseco.

I wouldn't be suprised to hear any player in the league connected with performance enhancers at this point.

chaerulez
10-02-2006, 12:50 PM
The biggest knock against Clemens in all of this is his quote where he says he was "tested plenty of times...and passed every test"

Of course he was tested...for steroids, not HGH. Someone who knows the CBA better than I do might contradict me, but I'm 99% sure that the league doesn't test for HGH only steroids right? HGH can only be detected in a blood test, which is not permitted per the CBA.

My point is he used very specific wording, and a very careful denial. All these players are entitled to defend themselves, but they sound eerily similar to the players who jumped on Canseco.

I wouldn't be suprised to hear any player in the league connected with performance enhancers at this point.

Correct! MLB does not test for HGH. Anyone in the league can be using HGH right now (Giambi's miracle turnaround?). Wade Boggs was just on Cold Pizza and he defended everyone saying no one has tested positive. Are all these pro athletes that stupid or do they think we are that stupid? Grimsley was caught with HGH. The issue here is HGH, no player is taking anabolic steroids anymore, of course they have moved on to HGH, something that is not tested.

samram
10-02-2006, 01:29 PM
Correct! MLB does not test for HGH. Anyone in the league can be using HGH right now (Giambi's miracle turnaround?). Wade Boggs was just on Cold Pizza and he defended everyone saying no one has tested positive. Are all these pro athletes that stupid or do they think we are that stupid? Grimsley was caught with HGH. The issue here is HGH, no player is taking anabolic steroids anymore, of course they have moved on to HGH, something that is not tested.

I have no doubts Giambi is on HGH. That guy is every bit as big as he was in 2000/2001.

areilly
10-02-2006, 03:25 PM
In all honesty I'm shocked that Pettite's name came up in this. The guy just has too much of that "aw shucks" air to his demeanor - kind of reminds me of Thome in interviews.

Sad really. Whatever. What a con this game has become.

chaerulez
10-02-2006, 03:39 PM
I have no doubts Giambi is on HGH. That guy is every bit as big as he was in 2000/2001.

I agree, if I was a pitcher I would either refuse to pitch to him or just nail him in the legs.

Martinigirl
10-02-2006, 03:54 PM
That was why Giambi being named Comeback Player of the Year was such a joke. First off, he admitted he cheated, came back and was playing for ****, and then suddenly he gets 'it' back. But when he had 'it' he, admittedly, was on steriods. So did he suddenly find a pool of talent in himself he didn't know he had before? Or did he suddenly get a new supplier?

Hmmm, I wonder.....

The award, and Giambi, are an insult to baseball.

nysox35
10-02-2006, 04:33 PM
In all honesty I'm shocked that Pettite's name came up in this. The guy just has too much of that "aw shucks" air to his demeanor - kind of reminds me of Thome in interviews.

Sad really. Whatever. What a con this game has become.

So True about Andy. I remember being in shock the first time I heard him talk during an interview.
I just assumed he was a NY'er b/c he looked like such a badass on the mound (in contrast to his off the mound behavior). The southern accent shocked me!

Jaffar
10-02-2006, 04:53 PM
Dan Patrick pointed out that he has seen the entire affidavit with all the names and that there is one more player we don't know about yet that will be shocking or something to that nature. I'm curious who the other big fish is.

Luke
10-02-2006, 05:07 PM
Dan Patrick pointed out that he has seen the entire affidavit with all the names and that there is one more player we don't know about yet that will be shocking or something to that nature. I'm curious who the other big fish is.

Just by looking at his teams, and the years he spent in some cities, it's not too hard to come up with a few big names.

Trav
10-02-2006, 05:15 PM
I hate to take the side of Selig and Fehr but currently there is no accurate test for HGH, even from blood samples. This came up in one of the other PED threads. For a player to get into trouble with HGH he would have to be caught with it, not caught using it.

That doesn't get Selig and Fehr off the hook all the way; they should have been doing things to stop this when they had the chance, now it is too late.

Luke
10-02-2006, 05:25 PM
The World Anti Doping Agency says there is a test. I can't speak to the science of it though.


http://www.wada-ama.org/en/dynamic.ch2?pageCategory.id=627

Trav
10-02-2006, 05:42 PM
I stand corrected. I thought the problem was false positives but according to your link it is a pretty sure bet that if it says HGH, then you were taking HGH. If the olympics used/use is then it should be good enough for baseball.

Soxfanspcu11
10-02-2006, 07:37 PM
Ahem. I seem to recall there being one guy who was both truthful and clean.


:hurt "yeah, who was that guy again?"


Yes, you are correct. However, if you read my original post, you will see that I said "of the people who testified before Congress in March 2005"




I stand corrected. I thought the problem was false positives but according to your link it is a pretty sure bet that if it says HGH, then you were taking HGH. If the olympics used/use is then it should be good enough for baseball.

And here is the problem with that COMPLETE MORON that runs baseball!!! This **** makes me SOOOOOOOOOOO ****ing mad that I simply CAN NOT put it into words!!!! :angry:

Yes, what a great thing that baseball tests for steroids now! Thank you Bud for saving the integrity of the game!!! :rolleyes: Mr. Selig, 1998 called, they want their illegal cheating drug back.

At Selig's rate, they will finally come up with a test for HGH around 2015, no teal necessary because this is far from a joke.

It has gotten to the point with Bud the Pud that I am fully expecting Ashton Kutcher to jump out at the next Selig press conference, grab the microphones and tell us all (the fans) that we have been punkd.

This guy can't seriously be this clueless can he??? I mean, this ineptitude would not be tolerated if he were the manager of McDonald's (no disrespect towards McDonald's intended).

Trav
10-02-2006, 07:47 PM
Selig isn't clueless. He is a very smart man. Look how much money he has made himself and the other owners. He knows what he is doing. However, he doesn't care much for the game of baseball or the fans.

Soxfanspcu11
10-02-2006, 08:52 PM
Selig isn't clueless. He is a very smart man. Look how much money he has made himself and the other owners. He knows what he is doing. However, he doesn't care much for the game of baseball or the fans.


Well, your right, as long as he gets to the point where he can no longer close his wallet, I'm happy!!! Chicks dig the long ball!!! :rolleyes:


P.S. I'm not making fun of you, just at the retardation of the situation.

Grzegorz
10-03-2006, 05:56 AM
In all honesty I'm shocked that Pettite's name came up in this. The guy just has too much of that "aw shucks" air to his demeanor - kind of reminds me of Thome in interviews.

That's the problem. Once a player's name is brought out into the public it is nearly impossible to put the genie back into the bottle.

I find it absolutely amazing that in this country information posted in the print media is taken as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Nothing could be further from the truth...

Flight #24
10-03-2006, 09:57 AM
Yes, what a great thing that baseball tests for steroids now! Thank you Bud for saving the integrity of the game!!! :rolleyes: Mr. Selig, 1998 called, they want their illegal cheating drug back.

At Selig's rate, they will finally come up with a test for HGH around 2015, no teal necessary because this is far from a joke.

It has gotten to the point with Bud the Pud that I am fully expecting Ashton Kutcher to jump out at the next Selig press conference, grab the microphones and tell us all (the fans) that we have been punkd.

This guy can't seriously be this clueless can he??? I mean, this ineptitude would not be tolerated if he were the manager of McDonald's (no disrespect towards McDonald's intended).

Not to defend Bud here, but you do neglect one hugely important factor in all of this: the MLBPA. There is no chance that they agree to blood testing (quite possibly because they know many of their high-profile members are on the stuff). Bud cannot unilaterally implement a policy. It took a fairly public scandal and near-congressional intervention for them to agree to the level of testing there is now - what makes you think they'd do anything but laugh all the way to the courthouse if Bud tried to put in blood testing?

Gregory Pratt
10-03-2006, 10:44 AM
That's the problem. Once a player's name is brought out into the public it is nearly impossible to put the genie back into the bottle.

I find it absolutely amazing that in this country information posted in the print media is taken as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Nothing could be further from the truth...

I take exception to that. (Not necessarily the media part, though.)

Pettitte was the only name that stunned me. Clemens I knew long ago. My own eyes can tell me that.

But just because Andy P. doesn't look like it or act like it, doesn't mean he isn't on the juice, or was. Because he's a nice guy doesn't make him a better candidate for cleanliness. Thome, either.

More than eighty percent of these guys are or were on the juice. Period. I accepted it long ago.

Luke
10-03-2006, 10:58 AM
That's the problem. Once a player's name is brought out into the public it is nearly impossible to put the genie back into the bottle.

I find it absolutely amazing that in this country information posted in the print media is taken as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Nothing could be further from the truth...

Thats a very fair point, and it's true beyond the world of baseball too. The US Attorney's Office is now saying that at least one of those names is not on the affidavit. So far Petite has been the only player to deny using any PED.

With that said, I have trouble believing that Bud and MLBPA didn't have a pretty good idea of what was happening. I would guess that both realized that they had financial interest in keeping quiet. Neither one of them wanted to kill the golden goose, I don't think they ever imagined having to testify in front of congress.

daveeym
10-03-2006, 11:08 AM
Someone who's better at researching old threads may be able to help out here. But when this first broke, didn't we have a link to some site that used computers to extrapolate the names that were blacked out on the affidavit? I'd like to see how those matched up with the newly leaked actual names.

Frontman
10-03-2006, 01:24 PM
I would like to believe it to be false, but then again, who knows anymore. I tend to doubt guys like Grimsley, who was caught for HGH, then starts singing like a jaybird names of others.

Front

Frontman
10-03-2006, 01:27 PM
Someone who's better at researching old threads may be able to help out here. But when this first broke, didn't we have a link to some site that used computers to extrapolate the names that were blacked out on the affidavit? I'd like to see how those matched up with the newly leaked actual names.

Dan Patrick claims to have read the affidavit prior to the blackouts, and says Clemens was on it. He also alluded to that another name that is on there that would shock people.

To me, a shocker would be :





:ozuna:


Isn't it obvious? Look at his build!!!!

Front

DeadMoney
10-03-2006, 02:27 PM
Someone who's better at researching old threads may be able to help out here. But when this first broke, didn't we have a link to some site that used computers to extrapolate the names that were blacked out on the affidavit? I'd like to see how those matched up with the newly leaked actual names.

Here is one of them:
http://www.deadspin.com/sports/baseball/so-weve-got-some-affidavit-names-179400.php
The names given in this article are:
- Chris Mihlfield (a trainer)
- and then links Mihlfield to Pujols
- Sosa
- Tejada
...doesn't have any other names listed though...

Edit: There is another one that I cannot seem to find find. It was from a blog that had measured letters and spaces and somehow got names out of it.

daveeym
10-03-2006, 03:20 PM
Edit: There is another one that I cannot seem to find find. It was from a blog that had measured letters and spaces and somehow got names out of it.
That's the one I was thinking about. They figured out the font used and then used the spacing and letters you could make out to come up with the names.

Trav
10-03-2006, 05:37 PM
Not to defend Bud here, but you do neglect one hugely important factor in all of this: the MLBPA. There is no chance that they agree to blood testing (quite possibly because they know many of their high-profile members are on the stuff). Bud cannot unilaterally implement a policy. It took a fairly public scandal and near-congressional intervention for them to agree to the level of testing there is now - what makes you think they'd do anything but laugh all the way to the courthouse if Bud tried to put in blood testing?


If Selig can't get a real testing policy in place after having to go in front of congress then we need someone who can. But the point is that Selig didn't even try and push Fehr to get it done. When you have the public's preasure on you, things tend to look different. If they would have gone on a strike because the MLBPA wouldn't agree to blood tests, I am sure that there wouldn't have been a backlash on the owners. For once, the players and the players alone would have been the ones that the public would blame.

Selig had everything he needed to put Fehr's balls in a vice and didn't because he didn't want to. Not because he couldn't.

Selig and Fehr should both be blamed equally in screwing over the fans and the players who are clean and the players that will be in MLB in the future.

areilly
10-03-2006, 06:10 PM
That's the one I was thinking about. They figured out the font used and then used the spacing and letters you could make out to come up with the names.

I seem to recall reading Chuck Knoblauch in one of them.

Apparently they make a special kind of hormone that turns you into a crappy fielder.


If you're inclined to take blogs seriously, here's an interesting read:
http://cullengarvey.blogspot.com/2006/06/if-your-mother-says-she-loves-you.html

Grzegorz
10-03-2006, 09:58 PM
I take exception to that. (Not necessarily the media part, though.)

Pettitte was the only name that stunned me. Clemens I knew long ago. My own eyes can tell me that.

But just because Andy P. doesn't look like it or act like it, doesn't mean he isn't on the juice, or was. Because he's a nice guy doesn't make him a better candidate for cleanliness. Thome, either.

More than eighty percent of these guys are or were on the juice. Period. I accepted it long ago.

Thats a very fair point, and it's true beyond the world of baseball too. The US Attorney's Office is now saying that at least one of those names is not on the affidavit. So far Petite has been the only player to deny using any PED.

With that said, I have trouble believing that Bud and MLBPA didn't have a pretty good idea of what was happening. I would guess that both realized that they had financial interest in keeping quiet. Neither one of them wanted to kill the golden goose, I don't think they ever imagined having to testify in front of congress.

My point is not to insult anyone it is just that the Titanic is going under and everyone is running to the lifeboats to rehabilitate themselves. God forbid anyone gets in their way.

My belief is that all this home run business drew people to the game. Why? I don't know; maybe people love cheap thrills. Bud gets some good publicity, MLB gets its revenue, MLBPA grows more powerful, and the visceral types get the type of game they cherish.

This situation is all so very sad...