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Lip Man 1
09-30-2006, 01:32 AM
Call me completely confused now about what the off season will bring. Perhaps Kenny is setting up a smoke screen---or perhaps he's actually tipping his hand.

Time will tell I guess.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060929soxgamer,1,654533.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

Domeshot17
09-30-2006, 01:39 AM
posted this in the other thread (this was brought up in the pierre thread)

(1) Uribe only walked 13 times?!?!?!?! I dont care what catch he made in 2005, he is killing us, and needs to go. He has a worse offensive approach then Brian Anderson

(2) This is the first time since the Todd Ritchie Fiasco I am really upset by something kenny has said or done. I really hope he can look at 2006, be able to say " We ****ed Up" and fix what needs to be fixed

(3) If he does indeed stand pat and just do nothing but more minor moves (cintrons and mackowiaks) 2007 will end just like 2006.

pudge
09-30-2006, 01:54 AM
I get the sense we get the real deal from kenny 95% of the time. People want to boot Uribe, Pods, etc, etc... but Kenny's point is valid - who are you gonna get as a replacement?

A healthier pitching staff and a CF'elder would have put this team in the playoffs this year, easy.

TheKittle
09-30-2006, 02:10 AM
I get the sense we get the real deal from kenny 95% of the time. People want to boot Uribe, Pods, etc, etc... but Kenny's point is valid - who are you gonna get as a replacement?

A healthier pitching staff and a CF'elder would have put this team in the playoffs this year, easy.


Here is the thing about Pods. If you look at his career, he has one good year then one bad year.

2003 with the Brewers. Very good year.
2004 with the Brewers. Bad enough to get him traded.
2005 with the Sox. very good year, helping the Sox to the WS Championship.

2006 with the Sox. Bad year.
2007? With the Sox? A "comeback" year?

I don't know if I was be so quick to get rid of him. He's not untouchable but I wouldn't take the first deal that comes along either.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-30-2006, 02:36 AM
(1) Uribe only walked 13 times?!?!?!?! I dont care what catch he made in 2005, he is killing us, and needs to go. He has a worse offensive approach then Brian Anderson

Ozzie Guillen

1985 - 150 Games, 491 AB, 12 walks
1986 - 159 / 547 / 12
1989 - 155 / 597 / 15
1991 - 154 / 524 / 11
1993 - 134 / 457 / 10
1996 - 150 / 499 / 10

Career - 1993 Games, 6686 At Bats, 239 Walks, .264 BA, .287 OBP (quite possibly the worst ever among players with that many at bats).

Uribe has an OBP ten points higher (and already has 56 more home runs (and a 95 point slugging advantage) at this point of his career). :o:

I never liked Ozzie Guillen and Uribe looks like he is Ozzie with some power. Outside of Podsednik he is our weakest link in the lineup with no speed, no plate discipline and no ability to bunt.

Gregory Pratt
09-30-2006, 02:46 AM
(2) This is the first time since the Todd Ritchie Fiasco I am really upset by something kenny has said or done. I really hope he can look at 2006, be able to say " We ****ed Up" and fix what needs to be fixed


You're really upset by him saying, "It's hard to find replacement players and we're not just going to get rid of people without finding suitable replacements"? Wow.

Uribe's batting and OBP are fine for a bottom of the order hitter with as much pop as he does and as sweet a glove. I know some people think his defense has been bad this year, but it hasn't. He messed up a few double plays, and that was his only defensive flaw this year. Otherwise, he's been just great.

QCIASOXFAN
09-30-2006, 02:49 AM
He said its not Domino's Pizza and in a sense I think he is right. Who are we going to find for the money we have who is better then what we have now. I understand what he is saying. I still think he will make a few crazy trades in the offseason though.

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 02:56 AM
Put a gold star on this for KW...
"But when you've got hitters who know what they're doing, who are somewhat patient and disciplined toward the strike zone, you're probably going to extend innings and get into bullpens and do all the stuff that's conducive to offense (talking about high OBP). We've had trouble over the years with some of that. It's something I've always tried to improve upon in putting a lineup out there. But you're right, we've got a little more threat one-through-nine than we've had in the recent past."

"....there was a little bit different look to the club. There was a little more speed, a little more range, and that range factor improved our defense some. We were hitting better, and our runners were going first to third and second to home on a consistent basis. We had a little bit more production one-through-nine instead of just a couple of spots."

I think I will make this my signature until KW puts out a team that can beat Minnesota more than 20% of the time.

Until we start drafting and bringing players to the big league club that are fundamentally sound and are NOT modelling their games on our 3-7 hitters, we're not going to make the playoffs again. It's just that simple. We had that team from 2000-2004 and this year. We beat the Twins once with that model. It just doesn't work over a 162 game season.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/misc/progress.gif

Grzegorz
09-30-2006, 05:03 AM
I wouldn't make any rash moves. I'd explore the trading of Garcia & Contreras to see what they'd bring, but I wouldn't move them just to move them.

Same with Pods; I'd evaluate what he does in spring training and see if he earns a spot. Maybe he fits into his career cycle of one year on, one year off. Who knows...

To give up the future to obtain Carl Crawford to lead off for this team is the wrong approach.

First off the White Sox would risk there long term future by limiting their long term talent pool. The second point is that the White Sox would have to take Crawford, who is currently hitting hitting third, and quite well might I add and move him back to leadoff.

SoxRox
09-30-2006, 06:42 AM
I hope he re-evaluates his thinking here. Kenny's talk about "championship players" is starting to ring a little hollow to me. We're not going to be champions of anything in 2006.

I hope Kenny puts his WS ring in a lockbox. No looking until you get another one to match. Forget you ever had it.

GET HUNGRY AGAIN, KENNY!

If Reinsdorf had the kind of expectations Steinbrenner has for his team, Kenny would be sweating his job - not defending Juan Uribe! :tongue:

-SoxRox

The Immigrant
09-30-2006, 06:51 AM
Until we start drafting and bringing players to the big league club that are fundamentally sound and are NOT modelling their games on our 3-7 hitters, we're not going to make the playoffs again. It's just that simple. We had that team from 2000-2004 and this year. We beat the Twins once with that model. It just doesn't work over a 162 game season.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/misc/progress.gif


Did you watch any part of the 2005 season?

We beat everyone with out-of-this-world pitching last year. If we had this year's offense last year, we would have finished with 105+ wins. As for the Punch and Judy dimension of our 2005 offense (which finished with 200+ homeruns), keep telling yourself that was the reason we won.

russ99
09-30-2006, 08:18 AM
It's not Domino's pizza. You can't call and place an order. It's not fantasy baseball. "Coming up with championship players to fill all those needs is a lot easier said than done."


Quote of the year from Kenny!

Still, I have to say this is a typical under the radar statement from Kenny. He's become a master of this kind of press comment to keep the other GMs guessing, which is very unlike the way he was portrayed in "Moneyball"

I'm glad they're not so ready to throw away Pods like most of the fans and will take an intelligent approach to decide his future with the Sox.

southside rocks
09-30-2006, 08:29 AM
You're really upset by him saying, "It's hard to find replacement players and we're not just going to get rid of people without finding suitable replacements"? Wow.

Uribe's batting and OBP are fine for a bottom of the order hitter with as much pop as he does and as sweet a glove. I know some people think his defense has been bad this year, but it hasn't. He messed up a few double plays, and that was his only defensive flaw this year. Otherwise, he's been just great.

I agree.

It's really easy -- and fun! -- to decide here at WSI what changes the Sox should make and what players they should ship out and what players they should bring in. All of that speculation ("fantasy baseball" as KW calls it) assumes quite a bit that isn't in evidence, like the availability of players, for starters. The "We Must Have Soriano!" threads in July were very convincing, and yet Soriano got dealt to NOBODY because the Nats wanted so much for him that the Sox, or any team, would have had to actually weaken their team to get Soriano. Not all deals that look great on paper will ever get off the ground. In fact, probably very few of them do.

Second, most managers and GM's in baseball don't look on players as replaceable parts that can be thrown out when they don't work for a while. Unlike the fans, who want to start over with a new face, the management usually wants to see if the problem can be fixed. This is particularly true with a player who has been a long-time contributor to the team, and whose attitude and approach are what the team wants.

Mark Buehrle is an example. Based on this awful season, many fans are pushing for him to be traded. I myself have felt at times that I never want to see MB again, but that was usually after he got shelled in early innings. The Sox are very unlikely to trade Buehrle, and will probably spend a lot of time and man-hours in the off-season working on fixing whatever is wrong with him.

Politte they let go because they knew he was hurt. He knew he was hurt; he just didn't know the extent of the damage to his shoulder. That was an instance where the player wasn't going to get any better through anything the team could do.

If you look at this year's team and this year's record, the biggest problem was the pitching, but the real bottom line is just what KW says: this team under-performed. There is no question that almost all of them CAN do better. (Podsednik is a question mark because there is some question about that with him; what we saw in '06 may be what Pods is.) If they CAN do better, then the trick is to make them do better and play up to that potential. Trading them isn't going to accomplish that.

Uribe is awesomely talented and when he is bad, it's because of his head. He needs to be motivated and Ozzie needs to figure out how to handle him better. That's part of Ozzie's maturation as a manger.

drewcifer
09-30-2006, 08:30 AM
Did you watch any part of the 2005 season?

We beat everyone with out-of-this-world pitching last year. If we had this year's offense last year, we would have finished with 105+ wins. As for the Punch and Judy dimension of our 2005 offense (which finished with 200+ homeruns), keep telling yourself that was the reason we won.

I totally agree.

You can easily put a dozen winnable losses directly on our pitching's failure to hold teams when it was needed.

Did anyone catch the part about KW forseeing a slide in performance out of the SP and suggesting a 6 man rotation in spring training? The players and coaching staff rejecting the idea?

And in 162 games of seeing that become a reality, still stuck with the struggling 5....

I've said it before and I'll say it again - If Ozzie had made better decisions and been less stubborn with the pitching staff, we'd not be here talking about '07 right now.

TomBradley72
09-30-2006, 08:38 AM
The quote about needing a right handed hitting 4th OF is pretty frustrating. This was an obvious need in early April...and he never addressed it,

I'm Ok with staying with Uribe for one more year...but it's time for Pods to go...one good first half in 2005 (plus a good post season) vs. a mediocre 2nd half of 2005/entire year in 2006.

SoxFan78
09-30-2006, 08:43 AM
I hope he re-evaluates his thinking here. Kenny's talk about "championship players" is starting to ring a little hollow to me. We're not going to be champions of anything in 2006.

I hope Kenny puts his WS ring in a lockbox. No looking until you get another one to match. Forget you ever had it.

GET HUNGRY AGAIN, KENNY!

If Reinsdorf had the kind of expectations Steinbrenner has for his team, Kenny would be sweating his job - not defending Juan Uribe! :tongue:

-SoxRox

I think Kenny is the hungriest one in the whole organization. I KNOW we will be a better team, cause I trust KW.

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 08:47 AM
A question to anyone who has watched the White Sox lose to the Twins four of the last five seasons.

How did they do that, with inferior talent (or superior management and allocation of that talent from a payroll standpoint)?

If we accomplished something only once out of five times, don't you think there is a "general trend" there?

Is their manager simply "better"? Is their GM "better"? Is it just "luck"? Is it just that their organizational philosophy is sounder and results in more consistent, proven results?.

Does anyone honestly think that Uribe, Pods, Anderson, Jenks, McCarthy and Thornton are going to be better next year? Would you bet your house on that? Is everyone so sure that N. Cotts isn't the pitcher he has been for 2 of the last 3 years and not the mediocre/average pitcher of this season?

Unless you're willing to say they were more talented than us all of those seasons (except for 2005), then explain why you think they beat us...something that just doesn't involve starting pitching and the bullpen.

Which gives you other options....speed, defense, fundamentals, fielding, execution. Baseball is NOT ALL pitching, or the Yankees wouldn't have won some of those championships in the 90's.

Essentially, KW if believes Jose (if healthy), Mark (if healthy), Freddy (if healthy), Vazquez (if psychologically in the right frame of mind) and Brandon and Garland will all be better next season (just magically)...then we have no need for a message board. He also magically can discern which one WON'T perform or will get injured (ala Sirotka) and which ones to keep. That's great, I feel so much better now about next season.

All we need to do is speculate about a RH hitting 4th outfielder that can play CF adequately and a middle reliever.

I guess you have the contracts of Buehrle, Pods, Crede and Dye to think about as well. That's it.

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 08:59 AM
Did you watch any part of the 2005 season?

We beat everyone with out-of-this-world pitching last year. If we had this year's offense last year, we would have finished with 105+ wins. As for the Punch and Judy dimension of our 2005 offense (which finished with 200+ homeruns), keep telling yourself that was the reason we won.

Please explain in five sentences or less why the Twins beat us four of the last five years without simply saying starting pitching and relief pitching...

Better yet, explain why their rookie pitchers (Baker, Bonser, Garza and Liriano) are going out and winning pennants and our rookie pitcher still isn't ready in his 2nd season?

Explain why the White Sox thought Broadway>Garza when they drafted late in the first round last June?

Explain why their pitching is consistently better when their payrolls have been 50-75% of ours during that time period.

Explain why we haven't developed our own starter since Buehrle...a player that was drafted and signed by us in the last six years (since many still don't think McCarthy is ready)?

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 09:03 AM
I agree.

It's really easy -- and fun! -- to decide here at WSI what changes the Sox should make and what players they should ship out and what players they should bring in. All of that speculation ("fantasy baseball" as KW calls it) assumes quite a bit that isn't in evidence, like the availability of players, for starters. The "We Must Have Soriano!" threads in July were very convincing, and yet Soriano got dealt to NOBODY because the Nats wanted so much for him that the Sox, or any team, would have had to actually weaken their team to get Soriano. Not all deals that look great on paper will ever get off the ground. In fact, probably very few of them do.

Second, most managers and GM's in baseball don't look on players as replaceable parts that can be thrown out when they don't work for a while. Unlike the fans, who want to start over with a new face, the management usually wants to see if the problem can be fixed. This is particularly true with a player who has been a long-time contributor to the team, and whose attitude and approach are what the team wants.

Mark Buehrle is an example. Based on this awful season, many fans are pushing for him to be traded. I myself have felt at times that I never want to see MB again, but that was usually after he got shelled in early innings. The Sox are very unlikely to trade Buehrle, and will probably spend a lot of time and man-hours in the off-season working on fixing whatever is wrong with him.

Politte they let go because they knew he was hurt. He knew he was hurt; he just didn't know the extent of the damage to his shoulder. That was an instance where the player wasn't going to get any better through anything the team could do.

If you look at this year's team and this year's record, the biggest problem was the pitching, but the real bottom line is just what KW says: this team under-performed. There is no question that almost all of them CAN do better. (Podsednik is a question mark because there is some question about that with him; what we saw in '06 may be what Pods is.) If they CAN do better, then the trick is to make them do better and play up to that potential. Trading them isn't going to accomplish that.

Uribe is awesomely talented and when he is bad, it's because of his head. He needs to be motivated and Ozzie needs to figure out how to handle him better. That's part of Ozzie's maturation as a manger.


Your belief Uribe can change any aspect of his game (patience at the plate, lack of concentration defensively, cutting down on strike outs, actually hitting an outside breaking ball once or twice, moving runners along instead of swinging out of his a--) is based on what?

He is who is he is. You live with him and die with him. He's not going to change. You can postulate theories about Pods or Anderson being better "small ball" players next year, but Juan is Juan. What you see is what you get.

If (if, if, if) we pitch as well as we did in 2005, then you can live with him. But you need to get more out of Pods and Anderson, of that there is no doubt.

southside rocks
09-30-2006, 09:09 AM
Does anyone honestly think that Uribe, Pods, Anderson, Jenks, McCarthy and Thornton are going to be better next year? Would you bet your house on that? Is everyone so sure that N. Cotts isn't the pitcher he has been for 2 of the last 3 years and not the mediocre/average pitcher of this season?


Would I bet my house? No. I'm not the GM. Kenny Williams is betting his house, and his job, every time he puts together a team, though, so I think that answers that question.

Does anyone think that those players will be better? Well, what reasons do we have to NOT think that? Given that there is a learning curve, that maturation tends to improve a player, and that most of those players have put solid seasons into the bank in previous years, and the others have shown distinct promise this season (BA), why would we assume that based on one lackluster (not even terrible) year, they can't improve from here?

Would anyone have predicted that Frank Thomas would have the season he's having in 2006? I think not. It was not at all obvious, when we looked at Frank's last 3-5 years. But something turned Frank on. What was it? Well, it could have been the insults he feels he got from the Sox; it could have been the change of scene and being the big guy on a new club that needs him; it could have been the contract that tied his paychecks directly to his on-field performance. Let's just call it "motivation." Frank is motivated this year to the point that he is in the running for MVP. Incredible, isn't it, what a difference a year makes ... what a difference motivation makes.

Bring in new players and what guarantees does anyone have that THEY will duplicate their best seasons of years past?

This is what KW is trying to say. Despite all the effort, all the research, all the moves, all the quantifying and qualifying that goes into assembling a team -- you never can tell what the outcome will be. Last year the Sox were picked to finish 3rd and they won the WS. This year they were picked to win the division and they're finishing 3rd. IMO the "why's" don't really make a difference, since there are no do-overs -- it is what it is. Make the best plans possible for 2007.

KW's not quitting on this team. I'm impressed by that.

wassagstdu
09-30-2006, 09:10 AM
Did you watch any part of the 2005 season?

We beat everyone with out-of-this-world pitching last year. If we had this year's offense last year, we would have finished with 105+ wins. As for the Punch and Judy dimension of our 2005 offense (which finished with 200+ homeruns), keep telling yourself that was the reason we won.

With Pods healthy in the first half, the Sox set a record for taking the early lead and helped the pitching (especially Garland) get off to a good start. After Pods went down with his groin injury the Sox were a .500 team for the second half. Home runs tend to bunch when you need them least. "Punch and Judy" runs tend to come when you need them most.

Pitching, defense, and offense are not separate. If the pitchers are giving up early runs the offense starts thinking long ball. If the defense is strong the pitchers are more likely to challenge hitters. If the offense gives them an early lead pitchers may approach the game differently. Maybe it was Pods and Iguchi that were most responsible for the "out of this world" performance of the pitching staff (aside from the pitchers themselves of course) rather than Coop? Who knows. It IS a team sport.

southside rocks
09-30-2006, 09:12 AM
Your belief Uribe can change any aspect of his game (patience at the plate, lack of concentration defensively, cutting down on strike outs, actually hitting an outside breaking ball once or twice, moving runners along instead of swinging out of his a--) is based on what?

He is who is he is. You live with him and die with him. He's not going to change. You can postulate theories about Pods or Anderson being better "small ball" players next year, but Juan is Juan. What you see is what you get.

If (if, if, if) we pitch as well as we did in 2005, then you can live with him. But you need to get more out of Pods and Anderson, of that there is no doubt.

I don't see it this way at all.

If you had said in early 2005 about Joe Crede "He is who he is. You live with him and die with him. He's not going to change." -- he would have proven you very wrong with the changes he made to his mechanics and with the changes that occurred in him as he matured over last year and in the post-season.

Juan can change a few things, and those few things could make a big difference. He CAN become a more disciplined hitter; that's not beyond any big-leaguer to accomplish. He CAN learn to let his emotions not ride him so much.

It's not necessary that Juan Uribe become Ted Williams, just that Juan Uribe become the best Juan Uribe he can be. He for sure hasn't played his best ball yet.

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 09:18 AM
I don't see it this way at all.

If you had said in early 2005 about Joe Crede "He is who he is. You live with him and die with him. He's not going to change." -- he would have proven you very wrong with the changes he made to his mechanics and with the changes that occurred in him as he matured over last year and in the post-season.

Juan can change a few things, and those few things could make a big difference. He CAN become a more disciplined hitter; that's not beyond any big-leaguer to accomplish. He CAN learn to let his emotions not ride him so much.

It's not necessary that Juan Uribe become Ted Williams, just that Juan Uribe become the best Juan Uribe he can be. He for sure hasn't played his best ball yet.

I think the reason I believed that Crede could be better is one...

1) He had the hitting stats at the minor league level, and the MVP's to go with it...

2) He was always a good clutch hitter (maybe even 2nd to Valentin over that time period), even when his average was way down, which means part of it was concentration and part of it was putting too much pressure on himself (like Pods, like Konerko)

3) Crede's statistics were on an upward trend line, improving each year, not jumping around erratically

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/U/juan-uribe.shtml

Juan Uribe, 2459 Minor League AB's, 661 hits (.269 average), 450 strikeouts...he actually had more patience (in terms of walks) in the minors, which should be the other way around

A .269 minor league hitter with that many at-bats almost NEVER morphs into anything more than a .230-.260 major league hitter. Which is what he is. And he still strikes out about once every 6 AB's.

wassagstdu
09-30-2006, 09:20 AM
it's time for Pods to go...one good first half in 2005 (plus a good post season) vs. a mediocre 2nd half of 2005/entire year in 2006.

Didn't anybody else notice that the reason for Pods' poor performance since mid 2005 was because of a serious (especially for someone whose major asset is speed) injury? It's not like the first half of 2005 was an unexplained fluke and he has reverted to the "real" Pods. The injury may have permanently cost him a step, in which case he is probably done. Or he may come back from it next year. I wouldn't give up on him yet, but wait and see if the lost step is back in the spring. How long does it take for a sprinter to recover from that kind of injury. I don't know.

Why have so much patience with Pods? Because of what he gave us in 2005.

dickallen15
09-30-2006, 09:26 AM
Didn't anybody else notice that the reason for Pods' poor performance since mid 2005 was because of a serious (especially for someone whose major asset is speed) injury? It's not like the first half of 2005 was an unexplained fluke and he has reverted to the "real" Pods. The injury may have permanently cost him a step, in which case he is probably done. Or he may come back from it next year. I wouldn't give up on him yet, but wait and see if the lost step is back in the spring. How long does it take for a sprinter to recover from that kind of injury. I don't know.

If he is seriously hurt, why did KW put together a team with $100 million payroll defending their title, and counting on an injured guy to be an ignitor of the offense? You can't wait until next spring for Pods to see if he is better. He is arbitration eligible and probably would get at least $2.5 million in arbitration. That's really too much for a guy who brings almost nothing to the table if he can't steal bases. Good riddance to him. I really think his 2005 season was one of the most overrated in baseball history. He got way too much credit for the White Sox success, although I will give him credit for 10/23/05.

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 09:29 AM
If he is seriously hurt, why did KW put together a team with $100 million payroll defending their title, and counting on an injured guy to be an ignitor of the offense? You can't wait until next spring for Pods to see if he is better. He is arbitration eligible and probably would get at least $2.5 million in arbitration. That's really too much for a guy who brings almost nothing to the table if he can't steal bases. Good riddance to him. I really think his 2005 season was one of the most overrated in baseball history. He got way too much credit for the White Sox success, although I will give him credit for 10/23/05.

Which is precisely why KW didn't wholeheartedly endorse Pods...said something about a serious discussion with Ozzie, meaning he's probably gone.

He's already articulating the idea that Pods is gone, he probably is going to stick with Uribe unless something amazing comes along and he's interestingly quiet about Anderson.

jabrch
09-30-2006, 09:30 AM
Kenny has a team with an excellent base next year (Dye, PK, Thome, Crede, AJ, Iguchi as well as a closer and a bunch of decent options in the rotation) he has some cash available, and some chips to trade. He's got four significant opportunities to upgrade; middle/back end of the bullpen, SS, CF, LF. We have options in the OF internally (Sweeney, Anderson and Owens). There are plenty of FA options there as well. SS is a huge ?. I have no idea where he's going to upgrade.

It's going to be a fun offseason to see what Kenny does. I'm looking forward to 2007.

wassagstdu
09-30-2006, 09:43 AM
Juan can change a few things, and those few things could make a big difference. He CAN become a more disciplined hitter; that's not beyond any big-leaguer to accomplish. He CAN learn to let his emotions not ride him so much.

It's not necessary that Juan Uribe become Ted Williams, just that Juan Uribe become the best Juan Uribe he can be. He for sure hasn't played his best ball yet.

Omar Vizquel learned to hit, and Carlos Lee got better every year with the Sox, to give a couple of examples. Paul Konerko is one of the best defensive first basemen around and has developed into a great hitter after two teams (almost a third?) gave up on him. Jermaine Dye could have been written off after a couple of months of 2005, and you had to go back a ways to find a reason not to. Good players get better (circular logic), bad ones are always the same. A good GM like Kenny Williams will be able to tell the difference and go with a player who will improve every year over one that may have better numbers but won't grow.

As for Uribe, I think his defense (at the most important position) is good enough that any offensive contribution (especially with the Sox lineup) is a bonus. Match his defense and get a much better hitter and you are talking mvp caliber, which you can't buy at peak value.

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 09:53 AM
Omar Vizquel learned to hit, and Carlos Lee got better every year with the Sox, to give a couple of examples. Paul Konerko is one of the best defensive first basemen around and has developed into a great hitter after two teams (almost a third?) gave up on him. Jermaine Dye could have been written off after a couple of months of 2005, and you had to go back a ways to find a reason not to. Good players get better (circular logic), bad ones are always the same. A good GM like Kenny Williams will be able to tell the difference and go with a player who will improve every year over one that may have better numbers but won't grow.

As for Uribe, I think his defense (at the most important position) is good enough that any offensive contribution (especially with the Sox lineup) is a bonus. Match his defense and get a much better hitter and you are talking mvp caliber, which you can't buy at peak value.


I watched Jermaine right out of the draft (he came from a JC) for the Macon Braves in 1994 (saw him at least 25 times). He was the second best hitter in the SAL League already. It was him, Vladimir Guerrero and Ruben Rivera, everyone else was way behind.

Carlos Lee put up very good offensive numbers in the minors, and very consistent numbers 2-3 years in a row. Same with Magglio.

Konerko was the Dodgers' Minor League Player of the Year. They had Karros, there were concerns about his hips and he wasn't capable of catching or playing 3rd. The Reds had Casey and thought they needed a CF more.

Dye, by the way, produced very good numbers for the Braves and Royals and A's, WHEN HE WAS HEALTHY. There was never a question about whether he could hit at the big league level. Never.

Uribe stood out and was a top prospect for the Rockies because of his arm, glove and pretty good speed, especially for his body type. He was often compared to Neifi Perez, for whatever it's worth.

southside rocks
09-30-2006, 09:58 AM
I'm certainly not saying that Juan Uribe can become a .300 hitter or that he can ever be a leadoff guy. Those things are not in him.

I am saying that he can become a more disciplined hitter than he was this season. It will mean that he has to commit to that and that he needs some coaching, or a ton of coaching. And he can become a more reliable defensive shortstop, too, with some attention on his part.

Lots of people have already said it: Juan Uribe is a very talented player. But his execution is sloppy sometimes, and "sometimes" is too often. Juan has to mature as a player. It's time. He'll be 28 when the 2007 season opens.

I am pretty sure that KW and the scouts and coaches of the Sox see things in players that we don't. :tongue: They have reasons for making the assessments that they do, and they don't share those reasons with us. If they're talking this way about Juan now, then it's probable that they've seen things that make them think they shouldn't get rid of him now.

OTOH, of course, if KW does intend to deal him, it would be a really dumb move to talk Juan down to the media before soliciting a deal for him. I'm pretty sure too that KW is a tad smarter than that.

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 10:04 AM
Kenny has a team with an excellent base next year (Dye, PK, Thome, Crede, AJ, Iguchi as well as a closer and a bunch of decent options in the rotation) he has some cash available, and some chips to trade. He's got four significant opportunities to upgrade; middle/back end of the bullpen, SS, CF, LF. We have options in the OF internally (Sweeney, Anderson and Owens). There are plenty of FA options there as well. SS is a huge ?. I have no idea where he's going to upgrade.

It's going to be a fun offseason to see what Kenny does. I'm looking forward to 2007.

Are we sure we have a closer right now? Jenks just hasn't been himself for the last two months. His IP/H are worse than McCarthy's, who has been a human pinball machine out there the last month. SV/SVO is misleading, he's had a lot of saves where he gave up 1-2 or even 3 runs, and he's also put tons of runners on base during that stretch. Todd Jones would be the Fireman of the Year unless you watched him game after game and realized that he wasn't that great.

DickAllen72
09-30-2006, 10:10 AM
Did you watch any part of the 2005 season?

If we had this year's offense last year, we would have finished with 105+ wins. As for the Punch and Judy dimension of our 2005 offense (which finished with 200+ homeruns), keep telling yourself that was the reason we won.

We wouldn't have won a thing in 2005 if the offense performed the way it did down the stretch in 2006. Statistics sometimes lie. You have to watch the games.

KW is right about the need for players who can go first to third on a hit, actually score from second on a single or from first on a double, etc. He's also correct about improving situational hitting. You don't win championships by having everyone swinging for the fences.

DickAllen72
09-30-2006, 10:14 AM
The injury may have permanently cost him a step, in which case he is probably done. Or he may come back from it next year. I wouldn't give up on him yet, but wait and see if the lost step is back in the spring.
Actually, it seems to me that Pods is running much harder in the past week or two than he has since the first part of 2005. Don't know if his speed is what it was, but he is running harder, going all out down the line instead of tippy-toeing his way around.

DickAllen72
09-30-2006, 10:15 AM
Until we start drafting and bringing players to the big league club that are fundamentally sound and are NOT modelling their games on our 3-7 hitters, we're not going to make the playoffs again. It's just that simple. We had that team from 2000-2004 and this year. We beat the Twins once with that model. It just doesn't work over a 162 game season.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/misc/progress.gif


Amen, bro!

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 10:16 AM
Actually, it seems to me that Pods is running much harder in the past week or two than he has since the first part of 2005. Don't know if his speed is what it was, but he is running harder, going all out down the line instead of tippy-toeing his way around.


Maybe it's because he is auditioning for another team and doesn't know it yet.

DickAllen72
09-30-2006, 10:17 AM
Call me completely confused now about what the off season will bring. Perhaps Kenny is setting up a smoke screen---or perhaps he's actually tipping his hand.

Time will tell I guess.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060929soxgamer,1,654533.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

In Kenny we (I) trust! :gulp:

shoelessshaun27!
09-30-2006, 10:19 AM
Juan needs to go, we could do so much better, but i rather have a better center fielder instead.

DickAllen72
09-30-2006, 10:21 AM
Maybe it's because he is auditioning for another team and doesn't know it yet.
Could be. That thought crossed my mind as well.

I don't know if he couldn't go all out before because of his injuries or if he was dogging it, but it sure seems to me that he's running harder the past couple of weeks. If his speed is back because he's finally recuperated from his surgeries, he may be well worth holding on to. But if he has still lossed a step in speed, or he just has not been running hard for no good reason, time to move on without him.

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 10:21 AM
We wouldn't have won a thing in 2005 if the offense performed the way it did down the stretch in 2006. Statistics sometimes lie. You have to watch the games.

KW is right about the need for players who can go first to third on a hit, actually score from second on a single or from first on a double, etc. He's also correct about improving situational hitting. You don't win championships by having everyone swinging for the fences.


That team did a couple of things.

Manufactured runs in the low scoring "pitching duels" and the relievers held those 1-2 run leads throughout the game.

Second, the offense in 2005 put a lot more pressure on opposing pitchers, leading to better pitches for the middle of the order. This year, we just waited for better pitches, got them occasionally...but it's not something any offense can do consistently for the entire season (as we learned, especially as Crede and Thome wore down and Konerko lost his power to some extent and started hitting into more DP's).

Third, we had the mentality of getting then on, getting them over and getting them in for 162 games last season. Tie game, early innings (the streak of taking the lead for 37 games) and especially excelled in late game situations or extras. Because we had the likes of Everett and Rowand (instead of Thome and a "better" Crede and a dominant Dye), we HAD to manufacture runs to survive. And Dye was borderline horrible the first two months....which was another factor that forced our offense to be "efficient" in order to win games.

DickAllen72
09-30-2006, 10:23 AM
That team did a couple of things.

Manufactured runs in the low scoring "pitching duels" and the relievers held those 1-2 run leads throughout the game.

Second, the offense in 2005 put a lot more pressure on opposing pitchers, leading to better pitches for the middle of the order. This year, we just waited for better pitches, got them occasionally...but it's not something any offense can do consistently for the entire season (as we learned, especially as Crede and Thome wore down and Konerko lost his power to some extent and started hitting into more DP's).

Third, we had the mentality of getting then on, getting them over and getting them in for 162 games last season. Tie game, early innings (the streak of taking the lead for 37 games) and especially excelled in late game situations or extras. Because we had the likes of Everett and Rowand (instead of Thome and a "better" Crede and a dominant Dye), we HAD to manufacture runs to survive. And Dye was borderline horrible the first two months....which was another factor that forced our offense to be "efficient" in order to win games.

You nailed it.

Daver
09-30-2006, 10:37 AM
Juan needs to go, we could do so much better, but i rather have a better center fielder instead.

There are not many CFer's in MLB that play the position better than the one the Sox already have.

oeo
09-30-2006, 10:38 AM
posted this in the other thread (this was brought up in the pierre thread)

(1) Uribe only walked 13 times?!?!?!?! I dont care what catch he made in 2005, he is killing us, and needs to go. He has a worse offensive approach then Brian Anderson

(2) This is the first time since the Todd Ritchie Fiasco I am really upset by something kenny has said or done. I really hope he can look at 2006, be able to say " We ****ed Up" and fix what needs to be fixed

(3) If he does indeed stand pat and just do nothing but more minor moves (cintrons and mackowiaks) 2007 will end just like 2006.

What needs to be fixed? Be honest, do you want him to gut this whole team? That would be stupid.

In this article (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060929&content_id=1689799&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws) on whitesox.com, KW says...
"I anticipate going into next year with one of the better bullpens in the league and a deeper rotation and a rested rotation," Williams said.
That's what needs to be fixed. If something big comes along, an offer he can't pass up, that's an upgrade, I'm sure he would jump on it. But the only position players I would really want to see replaced next year are Pods and Uribe. Look at the SS market, and tell me one guy that could replace him. Maybe Cintron could, but he was also given a chance to start in Arizona, and failed miserably. That's a risky move going into the season. And regardless of what he says about Pods, I think Kenny is going to make a big deal for an outfielder.

This same rotation, will be fine. KW says he wants a 'deeper' rotation.

That's what they need, PITCHING. Of course it would be nice to see some upgrades, but this was one of the top offenses in the league this year. The reason we lost is because of our bullpen and rotation for the majority of the year. If KW upgrades both of those (I still don't think the rotation needs to be upgraded), then that is a successful offseason. You don't just make a trade for the sake of making a trade...pitching is our need, and Kenny will get us pitching; anything else is just icing on the cake.

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 10:43 AM
''I'll listen to [the coaches],'' he continued. ''Going into this, I'll tell you this, Juan Uribe catches the ball as good as any shortstop in the league. The people who are our fans may not understand that because they watch only us. Well, I watch everyone. He makes plays that other guys can't make. We won a championship with Juan Uribe at shortstop. He's driven in 70-some-odd runs at the bottom of our order.
''Do we want more consistency in terms of getting on base and batting average and all that? Absolutely. Who doesn't? Can I go out there and reasonably get somebody better than Juan Uribe? Well, it's my job to explore every angle, and I'll do that. But it's going to take one hell of a player to remove Juan Uribe -- who, if we didn't have last year, we wouldn't be wearing these rings. I think he's undervalued.''

kw on juan uribe (suntimes.com)

flo-B-flo
09-30-2006, 10:48 AM
I think Kenny is the hungriest one in the whole organization. I KNOW we will be a better team, cause I trust KW. After reading all this I really believe this. I trust KW.

California Sox
09-30-2006, 10:54 AM
That team did a couple of things.

Manufactured runs in the low scoring "pitching duels" and the relievers held those 1-2 run leads throughout the game.

Second, the offense in 2005 put a lot more pressure on opposing pitchers, leading to better pitches for the middle of the order. This year, we just waited for better pitches, got them occasionally...but it's not something any offense can do consistently for the entire season (as we learned, especially as Crede and Thome wore down and Konerko lost his power to some extent and started hitting into more DP's).

Third, we had the mentality of getting then on, getting them over and getting them in for 162 games last season. Tie game, early innings (the streak of taking the lead for 37 games) and especially excelled in late game situations or extras. Because we had the likes of Everett and Rowand (instead of Thome and a "better" Crede and a dominant Dye), we HAD to manufacture runs to survive. And Dye was borderline horrible the first two months....which was another factor that forced our offense to be "efficient" in order to win games.

Pitching, pitching, pitching. Until the last month offense was not a problem. The season went south in the middle when we couldn't get anyone out. I was at that series in Yankee Stadium. The Yankees were running up to home plate to get a whack at the ball. Especially off Buerhle. I love Buerhle but he had a lot more to do with the failure of this ballclub than Uribe, Pods, or Anderson. (Just as he had a lot more to do with the success in 2005.) All 5 starters had mediocre to poor years. You can make a good argument for keeping or getting rid of any one of them. KW's toughest decision is who he keeps from the rotation. I hope he picks the right guys.

After the starters, you've got to blame the bullpen. Then maybe look at a lineup that scored over half a run per game more than the 2005 team.

Hitmen77
09-30-2006, 11:56 AM
There are not many CFer's in MLB that play the position better than the one the Sox already have.

...and Anderson is only a rookie with potential and could very likely improve next year. That's different from a veteran like Uribe where there really is no reason to expect him to suddenly be a better hitter and cut down on his strikeouts next year.

Does Anderson need to improve? Yes. But, I'm surprise at fans here who are ready to dump him now.

Hitmen77
09-30-2006, 12:00 PM
Call me completely confused now about what the off season will bring. Perhaps Kenny is setting up a smoke screen---or perhaps he's actually tipping his hand.

Time will tell I guess.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060929soxgamer,1,654533.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

I read this last night when it was first posted and was confused. But now that I've had time to think about what he said it makes sense. He's right - it's easy for us to play fantasy league and order up Michael Young for us. In reality, that'll be tough to pull off.

Would I like Young? YES! But, if KW can focus on the bullpen, LF, and leadoff spot - then there's no reason why Uribe has to go.

jabrch
09-30-2006, 12:01 PM
Are we sure we have a closer right now? Jenks just hasn't been himself for the last two months. His IP/H are worse than McCarthy's, who has been a human pinball machine out there the last month. SV/SVO is misleading, he's had a lot of saves where he gave up 1-2 or even 3 runs, and he's also put tons of runners on base during that stretch. Todd Jones would be the Fireman of the Year unless you watched him game after game and realized that he wasn't that great.

Do you think there is even a remote chance that Jenks isn't our closer next year? I don't give a rats ass how many runs he gave up in his CONVERTED saves. I don't care one bit. Not even in the slightest.

Jenks will cost us about 500K next year - he is our closer.

Is he Mariano Rivera? No - but it doesn't take Mariano Rivera to win a WS. In fact, it has been empirically proven that Bobby Jenks wins 100% of the WS games he plays in. Even Rivera can't bost that.

jabrch
09-30-2006, 12:02 PM
There are not many CFer's in MLB that play the position better than the one the Sox already have.

And there are NONE that we will be able to acquire next year without either giving up a ton of players/prospects, or paying a ton of money. The guy we have will be making 350K next year.

Lip Man 1
09-30-2006, 12:21 PM
One issue not being discussed with Uribe is his 'attitude.' Remember folks the Rockies dumped him because of the impression that he got 'lazy.'

That may or may not have been true but there have been times this season where he's appeared to have lost concentration, focus, call it whatever you will and let's not forget the 'bad back / Ozzie situation.'

I could live with Kenny doing nothing else but improving a very shaky bullpen and getting a new left fielder who can actually run if I had to, but the issues surrounding this club are more involved then that.

And if in fact, Kenny likes the bulk of the team then here's a radical idea....keep the exact five starters for 2007 (scrap all this talk of dealing one) and use McCarthy as part of a package to get you that left fielder or two solid bullpen arms.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
09-30-2006, 12:37 PM
And if in fact, Kenny likes the bulk of the team then here's a radical idea....keep the exact five starters for 2007 (scrap all this talk of dealing one) and use McCarthy as part of a package to get you that left fielder or two solid bullpen arms.

Lip

Lip, do you think the Rangers would accept a package of McCarthy and Uribe for Michael Young? (I would think the Sox would have to throw in a prospect, though).

Then sign Juan Pierre to replace Pods and here's your 2007 lineup:

LF Pierre (200 hits, 50 SB)
SS Young (.300, 15 SB, 30 HR, 40 2B)
DH Thome (.280, .400 OBP, 40 HR, 25 2B)
1B Konerko (.290, 35-40 HR, 25 2B)
RF Dye (.290, 35-40 HR, 25 2B)
C AJ (.270, 15 HR, 15 2B)
2B Iguchi (.280, 15 HR, 20 SB, 20 2B)
3B Crede (.280, 25 HR, 25 2B)
CF Anderson (.250, 20 SB, 10 HR, 30 2B)

Dump Cotts, add Haeger, find FA bullpen help and plan your October parade route.

Lip Man 1
09-30-2006, 12:42 PM
If the 'bad blood' between Hicks and Young are as bad as the Dallas papers have made it out to be (i.e. Hicks specifically blaming and naming Young as the reason the Rangers don't win...) they your idea may well have merit.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
09-30-2006, 12:51 PM
If the 'bad blood' between Hicks and Young are as bad as the Dallas papers have made it out to be (i.e. Hicks specifically blaming and naming Young as the reason the Rangers don't win...) they your idea may well have merit.

Lip

In another thread, Beautsox quoted an article on the Rangers' offical site that reported that Young says that he wants to play out his contract and then "play somewhere where he can win." He said he's not opposed to staying with the Rangers if he senses they are are on the right track, but he's not interested in signing a contract extension right now to commit beyond the 2007, especially since he is sick and tired of not winning.

If that's the case, the Rangers may want to deal him before risking losing him for nothing other than two draft picks.

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 12:59 PM
The dream would be to get both Vernon Wells and Young, but I'm not sure that is possible.

Maybe it would be best to get Wells, then have Vernon, KW and Ozzie "recruit" Young to the Sox after the 2007 season.

That way, you could move Anderson to LF and have an all-out competition with Sweeney, Fields and Owens for that position...or acquire a FA.

Heck, I wouldn't mind Wells and Reed Johnson. We could win with those two guys IMO.

Sox-o-matic
09-30-2006, 01:13 PM
The quote about needing a right handed hitting 4th OF is pretty frustrating. This was an obvious need in early April...and he never addressed it,

I'm guessing he would have addressed it if he had ay idea that his manager wouldn't play his CF as an everyday starter.

southside rocks
09-30-2006, 01:36 PM
I'm guessing he would have addressed it if he had ay idea that his manager wouldn't play his CF as an everyday starter.

Anderson is the everyday CF? Not until he gets better with the bat -- and I don't mean his average, I mean his ability to come through with runners on base -- and gets better at taking charge of the outfield.

Anderson got off to a *terrible* start offensively, which led to Ozzie sitting him frequently. Ozzie didn't cause BA's woes, and Anderson didn't start badly because of how Ozzie played him. In fact, Ozzie then had to deal with the effects of Anderson's very slow start and less than great performance.

I've been advocating for Anderson all year, but it's not possible to pretend that BA has nothing to do with how he was handled this year. I wonder sometimes if the "BA was done wrong" crowd is really only about bashing Ozzie.

The Immigrant
09-30-2006, 01:39 PM
Please explain in five sentences or less why the Twins beat us four of the last five years without simply saying starting pitching and relief pitching...


Nonsense. Better pitching is exactly the reason they beat us in years 2000-2004 and again this year, and why we had the better team in 2005.

If your point is that the Twins have better minor league instructors and are better at scouting and developing pitchers internally, that's a topic for another discussion and has nothing to do with the article that Lip posted.

Domeshot17
09-30-2006, 01:41 PM
I still think Kenny is showing way to much loyalty to Uribe. His glove is OVER RATED. For as many plays as he makes with his arm, he loses them because hes Lazy as hell and how many times did we see this

Grounded in the hole, URIBES GOT IT, AND HE AIRMAILS THE THROW

OR

Gounded in the hole, URIBES GOT IT, Fires a Bullet into the dirt but Konerko Picks it.

If Uribe didnt have 2 first baseman who could scoop anything, he would have had over 20 errors this year.

And why does Joe Crede have a future but Uribe doesnt? Joe Crede worked hard and improved his game. Jaun Uribe seems to take the if it aint broke dont fix it approach to the worst swing and batting approach in baseball. I gauruntee if Pods went up there, SWUNG AS HARD AS HE FREAKING COULD AT EVERY PITCH THAT WAS THROWN AT HIM, He would run into a .240 average with 15 homers also.

ChiSoxGirl
09-30-2006, 02:09 PM
He said its not Domino's Pizza and in a sense I think he is right. Who are we going to find for the money we have who is better then what we have now. I understand what he is saying. I still think he will make a few crazy trades in the offseason though.

What Kenny wants to avoid doing (and what us as fans want to see him avoid) is making trades or acquisitions for the sake of doing so. As armchair GMs, we can all say we want this guy or that guy to replace someone like Uribe, but it's not as easy as fantasy baseball where you sit in front of your computer, draft whoever you want, and poof- you have your team. Kenny wants to avoid doing something detrimental for both the distant and immediate future, so he will only make deals that are sensible.

In terms of Uribe, my feeling is that while he has a fielding percentage of .977 (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6698/career), he has an OBP of .257, only twenty points higher than his batting average!!! Sure, we want to build a team around pitching and defense, but timely hitting is also an important aspect. And to me, the timely hitting is coming more from Alex Cintron than it is from Uribe. There have been countless times this season when he's at the plate swinging a pitches so low, you'd think he was playing golf at Seven Bridges! I'd love to see Cintron take over as the full time shortstop, despite his .903 fielding percentage (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6766/career) this year; the guy is clutch! After all, Cintron would likely be a full time shortstop on any other team.

Whatever happens, we just have to trust that Kenny will do what's best for the team and what he sees as the right bunch of guys to lead us back to the Promised Land next year.

One more thing... keep Pods! :smile:

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 02:17 PM
What Kenny wants to avoid doing (and what us as fans want to see him avoid) is making trades or acquisitions for the sake of doing so. As armchair GMs, we can all say we want this guy or that guy to replace someone like Uribe, but it's not as easy as fantasy baseball where you sit in front of your computer, draft whoever you want, and poof- you have your team. Kenny wants to avoid doing something detrimental for both the distant and immediate future, so he will only make deals that are sensible.

In terms of Uribe, my feeling is that while he has a fielding percentage of .977 (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6698/career), he has an OBP of .257, only twenty points higher than his batting average!!! Sure, we want to build a team around pitching and defense, but timely hitting is also an important aspect. And to me, the timely hitting is coming more from Alex Cintron than it is from Uribe. There have been countless times this season when he's at the plate swinging a pitches so low, you'd think he was playing golf at Seven Bridges! I'd love to see Cintron take over as the full time shortstop, despite his .903 fielding percentage (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6766/career) this year; the guy is clutch! After all, Cintron would likely be a full time shortstop on any other team.

Whatever happens, we just have to trust that Kenny will do what's best for the team and what he sees as the right bunch of guys to lead us back to the Promised Land neat year.

One more thing... keep Pods! :smile:

If you can't start in the NL, have an OBP around .300 (in the NL), then are replaced by Royce Clayton to top it off...well, we're not going to win with Cintron playing 145 games either.

Grzegorz
09-30-2006, 02:46 PM
Does Anderson need to improve? Yes. But, I'm surprise at fans here who are ready to dump him now.


I am not; there are a whole bunch of Nimbostratus types out here...

Jjav829
09-30-2006, 03:48 PM
''I'll listen to [the coaches],'' he continued. ''Going into this, I'll tell you this, Juan Uribe catches the ball as good as any shortstop in the league. The people who are our fans may not understand that because they watch only us. Well, I watch everyone. He makes plays that other guys can't make. We won a championship with Juan Uribe at shortstop. He's driven in 70-some-odd runs at the bottom of our order.
''Do we want more consistency in terms of getting on base and batting average and all that? Absolutely. Who doesn't? Can I go out there and reasonably get somebody better than Juan Uribe? Well, it's my job to explore every angle, and I'll do that. But it's going to take one hell of a player to remove Juan Uribe -- who, if we didn't have last year, we wouldn't be wearing these rings. I think he's undervalued.''

kw on juan uribe (suntimes.com)

I agree 100% with KW. Uribe is still the best defensive shortstop in baseball IMO. I would only replace him if Michael Young or Orlando Cabrera can be acquired.

The only problem is that I don't want to see two automatic outs at the bottom of our lineup again next season. That's what Uribe and Anderson were for the better part of the year. Given the choice, I'd always chose the shortstop who is a great fielder but is an easy out over the centerfielder who does the same.

If KW decides to bring them both back, then we're putting a lot of stock into Anderson improving significantly, Uribe improving significantly, or both of them improving to some extent. I really can't take another season of two .230 hitters at the bottom of the lineup. All that does is make us even more reliant on the long ball because by giving up two outs at the #8/#9 spots, we're basically telling the 3-4-5-6 hitters that it's all up to them to manufacture runs.

soxchick20
09-30-2006, 04:03 PM
Whatever happens, we just have to trust that Kenny will do what's best for the team and what he sees as the right bunch of guys to lead us back to the Promised Land neat year.

One more thing... keep Pods! :smile:

Exactly. sure, it'd be sweet to acquire both a OF (like ichiro) and SS (young), but i highly doubt that actually happens. Uribe....eh....his offensive numbers arent the best, but defensively, he's great. Cintron is definitely clutch, but defensively, he scares me sometimes. As far as Pods goes, i'm starting to feel like he should stay. Yeah, he had a BAD year, but idk, i think if he does stay, he'll bounce back and be awesome.

anyways.....when it comes down to it......my thoughts dont really matter. Kenny's the one making the choices. just gotta wait and see.

goon
09-30-2006, 04:19 PM
The only problem is that I don't want to see two automatic outs at the bottom of our lineup again next season. That's what Uribe and Anderson were for the better part of the year.


THIS was the major problem with the offense of the white sox this year. yes, PK grounded into a lot of double plays, iguchi couldn't bunt, thome couldn't lefty's, whatever... what hurt a good off offensive team in the 2006 white sox was the uribe-anderson-podsednik chain of hitters. podsednik's year was a oddity in itself, struck out a ton, batting average was down, but still had 40 stolen bases and has 20 more RBI's than last year.


i think kenny is going to make a move here, one of those three, if not two of those three will probably move. my money is on podsednik, just because the leadoff spot sets a tone for the rest of the lineup. who knows, maybe this thing with carl crawford could happen or maybe kenny will just go conservative. But, with 6 starting pitcher on the team now, and a chance to bolster the offense even more so, it might be foolish to not make a move.

jabrch
09-30-2006, 05:07 PM
I still think Kenny is showing way to much loyalty to Uribe.

No - he's just not badmouthing a player on his roster who he may be marketing in trades and who he may be trying to replace.

Why the hell would he go out and trash Uribe?

He's the GM of this team. His job is to put himself in the best position to trade and sign players to make this team better. What do you expect him to say? "Juan can't get on base, corkscrews himself when he swings, is lazy off the field, lets his elbow fly out on throws, and is a bad player. We think he stinks." Why wouldn't he be complimentary about EVERY player on this roster if he intends on negotiating trades for ANY of them?

Find me a GM who tell the media that players on his team under contract really really suck, and I'll find you a bad GM.

russ99
09-30-2006, 05:49 PM
If Kenny puts stinkin' Juan Pierre in CF or LF next season, I'll have lost all respect for him.

You're supposed to upgrade a position, not move laterally, especially for the kind of cash Pierre's gonna demand for his bad arm and horrible OBP.

I'd rather they trot out Ozuna to the outfield than waste valuable salary room on Pierre.

southside rocks
09-30-2006, 07:14 PM
If Kenny puts stinkin' Juan Pierre in CF or LF next season, I'll have lost all respect for him.

You're supposed to upgrade a position, not move laterally, especially for the kind of cash Pierre's gonna demand for his bad arm and horrible OBP.

I'd rather they trot out Ozuna to the outfield than waste valuable salary room on Pierre.

Pierre's OBP is about the same as Podsednik's this year, I believe, but Pierre's batting average is about 30 points higher. He's struck out 38 times this year, while Scott's struck out 96 times. He's stolen 57 bases to Podsednik's 40, and they've both been caught stealing 19 times. He's gotten 200 hits in 4 of the last 6 seasons. Scott has never gotten more than 175 hits in a season.

I'm having a hard time seeing that as a "lateral" change if Juan Pierre goes into LF for the Sox.

Pierre's salary may make him unattractive to the Sox, but I doubt that his stats will.

Ozuna's listed on the roster as an infielder, and there's a reason for that, which I hope Ozzie keeps in mind next year. :tongue:

jabrch
09-30-2006, 07:21 PM
If Kenny puts stinkin' Juan Pierre in CF or LF next season, I'll have lost all respect for him.

You're supposed to upgrade a position, not move laterally, especially for the kind of cash Pierre's gonna demand for his bad arm and horrible OBP.

I'd rather they trot out Ozuna to the outfield than waste valuable salary room on Pierre.

Are you kidding? 200+ hits every year. NEVER misses a game. Steals 60 bases. You'd LOSE respect for KW?

The smarter baseball fans think they get, the less I like them.

Palehose13
09-30-2006, 10:33 PM
I didn't read this whole thread, but I agree with KW.

Even though the Sox didn't make the playoffs, it's kinda nice to think that a 90 win season is under achieving. I like this mindset.