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Lip Man 1
09-27-2006, 12:06 PM
Three stories, columns that I found interesting today, including one by Richard Roeper.

These stories speculate on what went wrong and next season. The reports of an A.J. 'rift' and possible trade surprised me but not as much as a comment attributed to Mark Buehrle and how that eventually affected the bullpen.

Here are the links:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/deluca/73337,CST-SPT-deluca27.article

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/73347,CST-SPT-soxdead27.article

http://www.suntimes.com/news/roeper/73345,CST-NWS-roep27.article

Lip

Hangar18
09-27-2006, 12:26 PM
I notice that Richard Roeper also wasn't sold on the SOX making the playoffs in 06. I like his "appreciate the moment" comment. I did the same thing over the winter, knowing anything was possible this coming season.

cheeses_h_rice
09-27-2006, 12:28 PM
I didn't see any comment from Burly "affecting the bullpen." All he said was that the Sox's pitching wasn't as good this year, and that the league had sort of figured him out.

:?:

Hangar18
09-27-2006, 12:29 PM
I didn't see any comment from Burly "affecting the bullpen." All he said was that the Sox's pitching wasn't as good this year, and that the league had sort of figured him out.

:?:


I think he made that comment on the radio, and it was used in a story basis?

cheeses_h_rice
09-27-2006, 12:42 PM
I think he made that comment on the radio, and it was used in a story basis?

I didn't see it in any of those stories Lip linked to.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2006, 12:44 PM
Cheeses:

''But we had a few guys have career years last year, and I don't think anyone could expect that everyone would have the same year as last year."

I assume Mark is talking about Cotts and Politte which is discussed more in the section devoted to the bullpen.

Lip

southside rocks
09-27-2006, 12:49 PM
Cheeses:

''But we had a few guys have career years last year, and I don't think anyone could expect that everyone would have the same year as last year."

I assume Mark is talking about Cotts and Politte which is discussed more in the section devoted to the bullpen.

Lip

Interesting -- I think he was talking about the starting rotation. And Cotts is way too young to have had "a career year" ...

cheeses_h_rice
09-27-2006, 12:50 PM
Cheeses:

''But we had a few guys have career years last year, and I don't think anyone could expect that everyone would have the same year as last year."

I assume Mark is talking about Cotts and Politte which is discussed more in the section devoted to the bullpen.

Lip

You made it seem as if Burly's quotes had an affect on the bullpen, hence my confusion.

Flight #24
09-27-2006, 12:50 PM
Cheeses:

''But we had a few guys have career years last year, and I don't think anyone could expect that everyone would have the same year as last year."

I assume Mark is talking about Cotts and Politte which is discussed more in the section devoted to the bullpen.

Lip
I took it differently, to mean that all of the pitchers had near best or career best years in '05, and that it was to be expected that some of them wouldn't be able to repeat that level. But that it was also unexpected that they'd pretty much all struggle worse in '06 than they had in most of their careers.

Iwritecode
09-27-2006, 12:50 PM
I didn't see any comment from Burly "affecting the bullpen." All he said was that the Sox's pitching wasn't as good this year, and that the league had sort of figured him out.

:?:

He's been a complete enigma this year. Everyone insists that he's perfectly healthy yet he goes from a career year in 2005 to the worst year ever in 2006. He had an OK but not great first half, then completely fell off the second half.

It took until the second half of his 6th full year in MLB for the league to "figure him out"? Something is not adding up right but nobody seems to know what the problem is.

Flight #24
09-27-2006, 01:00 PM
He's been a complete enigma this year. Everyone insists that he's perfectly healthy yet he goes from a career year in 2005 to the worst year ever in 2006. He had an OK but not great first half, then completely fell off the second half.

It took until the second half of his 6th full year in MLB for the league to "figure him out"? Something is not adding up right but nobody seems to know what the problem is.

Honestly, this is the biggest issue facing the Sox this year. This guy could be a #1 (and he's getting paid in that range), or he could be (as he has been the 2d half), a Danny Wright-esque bad 5th starter. The problem is that unless you have an idea as to why he was bad, how can you either trade him (for cents on the dollar, I'd guess), or rely on him? And given the salary level, how can you effectively backstop him in the event he repeats this year?

BainesHOF
09-27-2006, 01:01 PM
Let's cut to the chase with Buehrle. His velocity was down. There wasn't much difference between his offspeed stuff and his fastball, which is deadly for a pitcher who relies on fooling batters to be successful.

I was surprised to read Buehrle talk about throwing sooner in the offseason. Common sense says his arm needs a break, and that he should, if anything, start throwing later in the offseason. Remember, he wasn't so bad in the first half of the season. It was the second half where he was so bad. His arm is fried. Hopefully it'll return to normal with plenty of rest.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2006, 01:01 PM
Southside:

Compared to 2004, Neal Cotts did in fact have a 'career' year in 2005.

That's part of what makes it so hard for the Sox vis a vis with him. He doesn't really have a track record. One bad year, one great year, then a disasterous year.

Politte, was a journeyman throughout his entire career until 2005, it made it easier to see his year was a fluke one and that he'd never be that good again (especially after he was lit up in spring training) but with Cotts I honestly don't know.

His biggest problem was not being able to find the plate and walking hitters (death to a relief pitcher). It was hoped he got over that but apparently not.

Personally I don't think the Sox are going to deal him but I do think he's going to be the #3 left hander in the spring, with a ton of questions on his shoulders and will have to pitch brilliantly to be on the opening day roster. I think the odds are much better he starts the season in Charlotte.

Lip

Iwritecode
09-27-2006, 01:05 PM
Honestly, this is the biggest issue facing the Sox this year. This guy could be a #1 (and he's getting paid in that range), or he could be (as he has been the 2d half), a Danny Wright-esque bad 5th starter. The problem is that unless you have an idea as to why he was bad, how can you either trade him (for cents on the dollar, I'd guess), or rely on him? And given the salary level, how can you effectively backstop him in the event he repeats this year?

Him and Cotts. I sure don't envy KW for being the one that has to make the decisions.

southside rocks
09-27-2006, 01:07 PM
Southside:

Compared to 2004, Neal Cotts did in fact have a 'career' year in 2005.

That's part of what makes it so hard for the Sox vis a vis with him. He doesn't really have a track record. One bad year, one great year, then a disasterous year.

Politte, was a journeyman throughout his entire career until 2005, it made it easier to see his year was a fluke one and that he'd never be that good again (especially after he was lit up in spring training) but with Cotts I honestly don't know.

His biggest problem was not being able to find the plate and walking hitters (death to a relief pitcher). It was hoped he got over that but apparently not.

Personally I don't think the Sox are going to deal him but I do think he's going to be the #3 left hander in the spring, with a ton of questions on his shoulders and will have to pitch brilliantly to be on the opening day roster. I think the odds are much better he starts the season in Charlotte.

Lip

Oh, I definitely agree that Cotts's 2005 performance was far better than either his '04 or his '06 pitching, and was the best year of his career. I looked that up the other day, in fact, and posted it in some other thread, so I remember it. 2004 and 2006 are VERY similar for Neal.

My only point was that for a pitcher who is 24 or 25 years old, and who realistically has 8-10 more years to pitch, it's unusual to label his second year in the bigs a "career" year. That's why I don't think Burhrle was referring to Cotts when he made that comment.

Politte had a career year. His struggles this year are explained, to some degree (we don't know what degree), by his injury, but it wouldn't be at all realistic to expect Cliff to pitch ever again the way he did in '05.

Cotts, along with Buehrle, is a mystery. Not a good thing to have on a pitching staff, mysteries. :?:

Flight #24
09-27-2006, 01:10 PM
Him and Cotts. I sure don't envy KW for being the one that has to make the decisions.

Cotts is easy - he makes little enough & is young enough that you can send him to AAA if he's not cutting it. And/or, you can probably find a couple of guys to compete with him without spending too much.

But Buehrle & his $9.5M is a lot tougher to deal with. Esp when KW's looking to deal one of the big-ticket starters. How can you deal Freddy/Javy unless you know you can count on Mark to be the old Mark? But how can you instead deal Mark when he's got all these ?s and has historically been the ace & core of the staff?

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2006, 01:14 PM
Three stories, columns that I found interesting today, including one by Richard Roeper.

These stories speculate on what went wrong and next season. The reports of an A.J. 'rift' and possible trade surprised me but not as much as a comment attributed to Mark Buehrle and how that eventually affected the bullpen.

Here are the links:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/deluca/73337,CST-SPT-deluca27.article

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/73347,CST-SPT-soxdead27.article

http://www.suntimes.com/news/roeper/73345,CST-NWS-roep27.article

LipHonestly, I've seen much better analysis on WSI.

cheeses_h_rice
09-27-2006, 01:17 PM
Let's cut to the chase with Buehrle. His velocity was down. There wasn't much difference between his offspeed stuff and his fastball, which is deadly for a pitcher who relies on fooling batters to be successful.

I was surprised to read Buehrle talk about throwing sooner in the offseason. Common sense says his arm needs a break, and that he should, if anything, start throwing later in the offseason. Remember, he wasn't so bad in the first half of the season. It was the second half where he was so bad. His arm is fried. Hopefully it'll return to normal with plenty of rest.

I also thought Burly's location was really spotty for most of the year.

Foulke You
09-27-2006, 01:38 PM
I also thought Burly's location was really spotty for most of the year.
Absolutely correct Cheeses. I think this was his problem more than his drop in velocity. We all know Buehrle is a location pitcher who relies on finesse to get people out. I think I saw more changeups floated up in the zone for hitters to crush from Buehrle this year than any other season in his Sox career. I've always felt that Buehrle's changeup was his bread and butter. When he started getting hammered with that pitch, it seemed to throw his whole approach off. I realize his location wasn't great on his other pitches too but he especially seemed to have trouble locating his change. When you lose command of one of your best pitches, it makes it that much easier for MLB hitters to sit on your other stuff.

INSox56
09-27-2006, 01:55 PM
Anyone see the interview he gave with Garfind on Comcast? He said that he was going to change his approach and that Alan Thomas will be visiting him (and half the damn team in the offseason) for conditioning and buehrle said that he was going to work on strengthening up his arm and gain a few more mph.

Good to hear that he just isn't saying "I had a bad year, I"ll be back". He was saying I'll be back and I'm going to change and improve myself this offseason.

russ99
09-27-2006, 01:59 PM
"Pods in Ozzie's Doghouse"?!?

Didn't I just see a blurb in the same paper this week quoting Ozzie that he'd like to keep him, and it wasn't in his hands if he stays or goes?

caulfield12
09-27-2006, 02:05 PM
"Pods in Ozzie's Doghouse"?!?

Didn't I just see a blurb in the same paper this week quoting Ozzie that he'd like to keep him, and it wasn't in his hands if he stays or goes?

OTOH, he hasn't pointed to a specific player (Uribe, Pods, Anderson, Cotts, etc.) and said, "I'd like to get rid of him, he doesn't want to play for me..." either.

What can a manager be expected to say?

Obviously, he's trying to support his players as much as possible while simultaneously being a part of management...and realizing that KW has even MORE say in who ultimately ends up on the 07 Sox.

He has shown that he's disappointed with the three position players in print as well as by "platooning" them at different points in the season. With Cotts, he's made remarks about his psyche and how hard he tries and how he puts too much pressure to produce (see Konerko and Pods)...but that baseball isn't a game where you can simply "try harder," that he needs to relax and let the game come to him instead of forcing things to happen.

Hangar18
09-27-2006, 02:08 PM
"Pods in Ozzie's Doghouse"?!?

Didn't I just see a blurb in the same paper this week quoting Ozzie that he'd like to keep him, and it wasn't in his hands if he stays or goes?

You sure did see a blurb from Ozzie. He did indeed say he would like to see Scott Podsednik STAY with the SOX in 07. Im wondering if they are going to take a hard look at what was really wrong with him this season, before simply dumping him. Smart approach I say. I know before, there were leaks to the media that Pods was most definitely "gone" after the season, but now seems like theyre going to wait, before making a decision on him

caulfield12
09-27-2006, 02:12 PM
You sure did see a blurb from Ozzie. He did indeed say he would like to see Scott Podsednik STAY with the SOX in 07. Im wondering if they are going to take a hard look at what was really wrong with him this season, before simply dumping him. Smart approach I say.


I think they would really need to take a look at the recovery period for hernia surgeries, his age, his fragile physical condition (the Mercedes 600S that can't have one component slightly damaged) and athletes in similar circumstances (like track stars and football receivers or backs that need that burst of explosiveness).

There's very clearly a huge drop-off in stolen bases and stolen base efficiency over a 1 1/2 year period now. Is this surgery like Tommy John, where the second year you might be as good as new, or is he essentially "washed up" as a leadoff hitter with no upside at this point?

Hangar18
09-27-2006, 02:17 PM
I think they would really need to take a look at the recovery period for hernia surgeries, his age, his fragile physical condition (the Mercedes 600S that can't have one component slightly damaged) and athletes in similar circumstances (like track stars and football receivers or backs that need that burst of explosiveness).

There's very clearly a huge drop-off in stolen bases and stolen base efficiency over a 1 1/2 year period now. Is this surgery like Tommy John, where the second year you might be as good as new, or is he essentially "washed up" as a leadoff hitter with no upside at this point?


Sounds like the SOX are wising up, and not just throwing Pods away without taking a 2nd and scrutinizing look at him, compared to midseason, when everyone in the organization was making it known they were dumping him first chance they got.

caulfield12
09-27-2006, 02:19 PM
Sounds like the SOX are wising up, and not just throwing Pods away without taking a 2nd and scrutinizing look at him, compared to midseason, when everyone in the organization was making it known they were dumping him first chance they got.


If he goes to arbitration, he will get $3-4 million per season.

The White Sox are already paying Mack and Cintron like the Marlins pay their best players...so he's either going to be a starter or not on the team IMO.

I think it would be a huge risk to offer arbitration, find out he wasn't healthy or was never going to be back ot "2005 first half Pods" and then have to dump him for nothing or eat his contract.

Hangar18
09-27-2006, 02:22 PM
If he goes to arbitration, he will get $3-4 million per season.

The White Sox are already paying Mack and Cintron like the Marlins pay their best players...so he's either going to be a starter or not on the team IMO.

I think it would be a huge risk to offer arbitration, find out he wasn't healthy or was never going to be back ot "2005 first half Pods" and then have to dump him for nothing or eat his contract.

Podsednik is NOT going to win in arbitration. You can book that

caulfield12
09-27-2006, 02:25 PM
Podsednik is NOT going to win in arbitration. You can book that

He was in the Top 10-12 in steals in MLB. Scored almost the same number of runs as last year (probably more per AB than last year), one of the best Sox hitters with RISP, "okay" OBP, etc.

It doesn't take much to win in arbitration, and, even then, the team loses because the losing amount is usually a huge increase anyways.

Hangar18
09-27-2006, 02:27 PM
He was in the Top 10-12 in steals in MLB. Scored almost the same number of runs as last year (probably more per AB than last year), one of the best Sox hitters with RISP, "okay" OBP, etc.

It doesn't take much to win in arbitration, and, even then, the team loses because the losing amount is usually a huge increase anyways.


yeah, forgot about that. He'll "lose", but still get more money.
I can see the SOX doing a quick signing of him for 1 year and avoid that altogether. Again, if nothing else materializes, he would still be cheap and hes left-handed

southside rocks
09-27-2006, 02:41 PM
OTOH, he hasn't pointed to a specific player (Uribe, Pods, Anderson, Cotts, etc.) and said, "I'd like to get rid of him, he doesn't want to play for me..." either.

What can a manager be expected to say?

Obviously, he's trying to support his players as much as possible while simultaneously being a part of management...and realizing that KW has even MORE say in who ultimately ends up on the 07 Sox.

He has shown that he's disappointed with the three position players in print as well as by "platooning" them at different points in the season. With Cotts, he's made remarks about his psyche and how hard he tries and how he puts too much pressure to produce (see Konerko and Pods)...but that baseball isn't a game where you can simply "try harder," that he needs to relax and let the game come to him instead of forcing things to happen.

I think that Ozzie didn't come out and say "oh gee, I really want Scott to stay!" but that he was asked about "what if you have the same team next year" -- to which he said that would be great -- and then "what about this player, that player."

You're right, what's a manager to say -- "oh, no, I want him gone!" The season isn't even over. Ozzie is managing these guys still, every day. He's going to say in print that he hopes the door doesn't hit Scott Podsednik in the ass on the way out?! No. Ozzie never does that to his players.

We will know what players Ozzie doesn't want back when those players don't come back. Not when Ozzie tells some idiot sportswriter that he wants them gone.

Flight #24
09-27-2006, 02:55 PM
You're right, what's a manager to say -- "oh, no, I want him gone!" The season isn't even over. Ozzie is managing these guys still, every day. He's going to say in print that he hopes the door doesn't hit Scott Podsednik in the ass on the way out?! No. Ozzie never does that to his players.

True dat. Remember - I don't believe Ozzie ever said anything like "I want that Marte kid out of here" until he was gone. Until then it was all about how he wanted everyone back but that some guys would have to work on some things.

Hangar18
09-27-2006, 03:06 PM
True dat. Remember - I don't believe Ozzie ever said anything like "I want that Marte kid out of here" until he was gone. Until then it was all about how he wanted everyone back but that some guys would have to work on some things.


But Ozzie is also not going to go out of his way and say specifically that he "want to see Pods back in 07"

southside rocks
09-27-2006, 03:18 PM
But Ozzie is also not going to go out of his way and say specifically that he "want to see Pods back in 07"

If he's asked that -- "Do you want to see Scott Podsednik back next year?" -- what is he going to say???? "No"? And then walk into the clubhouse and face Pods?

Color me skeptical. :rolleyes:

Sportswriters never give context. They just print stuff so people will get all worked up about it.

southside rocks
09-27-2006, 03:19 PM
True dat. Remember - I don't believe Ozzie ever said anything like "I want that Marte kid out of here" until he was gone. Until then it was all about how he wanted everyone back but that some guys would have to work on some things.

Yup, and I believe he never called Maggs a "Venezuelan piece of bleep" until Magglio had left the building, either. :D:

Flight #24
09-27-2006, 03:34 PM
Yup, and I believe he never called Maggs a "Venezuelan piece of bleep" until Magglio had left the building, either. :D:

Great point. I'd bet that hios comments until Maggs left were "I hope we get him back", and with Lee I'd bet he was talking about him coming back until the deal went through.

To me, that's not being disingenuous, it's being practical and realistic. Until the guy's no longer on your team, you have to support them.

INSox56
09-27-2006, 03:45 PM
Im wondering if they are going to take a hard look at what was really wrong with him this season, before simply dumping him. Smart approach I say.

They already said what was wrong with him. Walker and Oz both said that the problem was above his neck and between his damn ears...he's a headcase, once he starts to barely struggle, he fights harder than hell and gets down on himself really badly instead of just relaxing and letting things happen. I don't think you can really improve or change that. What happens when we say "OK scott, we've got confidence that you can get it done" and he starts off the season slow and gets more and more on himself and goes into the same tailspin. Then we're left trying to find a replacement mid-season.

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2006, 03:49 PM
If he's asked that -- "Do you want to see Scott Podsednik back next year?" -- what is he going to say???? "No"? And then walk into the clubhouse and face Pods?

Color me skeptical. :rolleyes:

Sportswriters never give context. They just print stuff so people will get all worked up about it.Gee. You noticed that, too?