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JB98
09-26-2006, 03:48 PM
Guess how many strikeouts Pods, Iguchi, Uribe and BA have combined for this year? 369. Let that figure swim around in your brain for a little while. Isn't that terrible?

We've talked about how slow we are 3-7 in the lineup, and Thome, PK and Dye strike out a bunch too. But at least we are getting good-to-great run production from each of those five spots.

Something has to be done about those other four spots. Just because the middle of our lineup is slow and power-oriented doesn't mean we can't manufacture runs.

What we need is guys hitting 1-2 and 8-9 who put the ball in play. Get bunts down, hit-and-run, hit behind runners and use their speed. Instead, what we're getting is guys who strike out too damn much. Iguchi is over 100 Ks. Pods is five away from 100. Uribe and Anderson would have surpassed 100 easily if given a full complement of at-bats this year. That has to be addressed.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 03:56 PM
Guess how many strikeouts Pods, Iguchi, Uribe and BA have combined for this year? 369. Let that figure swim around in your brain for a little while. Isn't that terrible?

We've talked about how slow we are 3-7 in the lineup, and Thome, PK and Dye strike out a bunch too. But at least we are getting good-to-great run production from each of those five spots.

Something has to be done about those other four spots. Just because the middle of our lineup is slow and power-oriented doesn't mean we can't manufacture runs.

What we need is guys hitting 1-2 and 8-9 who put the ball in play. Get bunts down, hit-and-run, hit behind runners and use their speed. Instead, what we're getting is guys who strike out too damn much. Iguchi is over 100 Ks. Pods is five away from 100. Uribe and Anderson would have surpassed 100 easily if given a full complement of at-bats this year. That has to be addressed.

Yes and no.

Tyner 18 K's
Castillo 57 K's
Punto 65 K's
Bartlett 43 K's

If you substituted Tyner for Pods, Castillo for Iguchi, Punto for Crede (or not) and Bartlett for Uribe, would we have won the division? You can make arguments either way...although it's hard for me to believe that we're better off without Crede at 3B, that you would rather have Punto?

OTOH

Granderson 168 K's
Inge 121 K's
Monroe 122 K's
Shelton 103 K's
Thames 88 K's
Ordonez, I-Rod and Guillen all had over 80

Which means what? Nothing. That the Tigers had better starting pitching and a better bullpen than the White Sox.

Their only "contact" hitter was essentially Polanco.

Ol' No. 2
09-26-2006, 03:59 PM
Guess how many strikeouts Pods, Iguchi, Uribe and BA have combined for this year? 369. Let that figure swim around in your brain for a little while. Isn't that terrible?

We've talked about how slow we are 3-7 in the lineup, and Thome, PK and Dye strike out a bunch too. But at least we are getting good-to-great run production from each of those five spots.

Something has to be done about those other four spots. Just because the middle of our lineup is slow and power-oriented doesn't mean we can't manufacture runs.

What we need is guys hitting 1-2 and 8-9 who put the ball in play. Get bunts down, hit-and-run, hit behind runners and use their speed. Instead, what we're getting is guys who strike out too damn much. Iguchi is over 100 Ks. Pods is five away from 100. Uribe and Anderson would have surpassed 100 easily if given a full complement of at-bats this year. That has to be addressed.Pods, Uribe and Iguchi combined for 266 SO last year. This year they have 283. I wouldn't call that a big difference. As a team they were 6th in the AL last year with 1002. This year they're 7th with 1011. Not much difference. Not that fewer wouldn't be better, but I don't see the big deal.

Hangar18
09-26-2006, 04:00 PM
........Just because the middle of our lineup is slow and power-oriented doesn't mean we can't manufacture runs.

What we need is guys ............. who put the ball in play. Get bunts down, hit-and-run, hit behind runners and use their speed..

I've been saying this all season. Agree wholeheartedly

JB98
09-26-2006, 04:03 PM
Yes and no.

Tyner 18 K's
Castillo 57 K's
Punto 65 K's
Bartlett 43 K's

If you substituted Tyner for Pods, Castillo for Iguchi, Punto for Crede (or not) and Bartlett for Uribe, would we have won the division? You can make arguments either way...although it's hard for me to believe that we're better off without Crede at 3B, that you would rather have Punto?

OTOH

Granderson 168 K's
Inge 121 K's
Monroe 122 K's
Shelton 103 K's
Thames 88 K's
Ordonez, I-Rod and Guillen all had over 80

Which means what? Nothing. That the Tigers had better starting pitching and a better bullpen than the White Sox.

Their only "contact" hitter was essentially Polanco.

Monroe, Thames, Ordonez, Inge and even Guillen are all power producers though. Granderson is a major weakness for the Tigers, and Shelton got sent back to the minors.

My point is if you're not going to hit for power, you better do something else. I can live with 100-plus strikeouts if I see 25 HRs.

Crede has fewer strikeouts than Punto does. There's no ****ing way I would ever replace Crede with that little piece of ****. Joe is the best third baseman in baseball. I would take Castillo and Bartlett over our double-play combination.

JB98
09-26-2006, 04:06 PM
Pods, Uribe and Iguchi combined for 266 SO last year. This year they have 283. I wouldn't call that a big difference. As a team they were 6th in the AL last year with 1002. This year they're 7th with 1011. Not much difference. Not that fewer wouldn't be better, but I don't see the big deal.

Maybe it's when those strikeouts are coming. I've seen way too many whiffs with a runner at third and less than two outs this season, and I've seen them from guys who are not power hitters and should be swinging for contact.

Jaffar
09-26-2006, 04:21 PM
Maybe it's when those strikeouts are coming. I've seen way too many whiffs with a runner at third and less than two outs this season, and I've seen them from guys who are not power hitters and should be swinging for contact.

Brian Anderson with a runner on 3rd less than 2 outs
17 at bats - 6 hits - 16 rbi - 3 strikeouts - .353 avg

Juan Uribe
24-7-21-7-.292

Tadahito
23-7-12-3-.304

Pods
17-5-17-3-.294

Edit- I messed up on the order and totally screwed up why I posted them. Point was they didn't strike out a lot in those situations, sorry.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 04:29 PM
Monroe, Thames, Ordonez, Inge and even Guillen are all power producers though. Granderson is a major weakness for the Tigers, and Shelton got sent back to the minors.

My point is if you're not going to hit for power, you better do something else. I can live with 100-plus strikeouts if I see 25 HRs.

Crede has fewer strikeouts than Punto does. There's no ****ing way I would ever replace Crede with that little piece of ****. Joe is the best third baseman in baseball. I would take Castillo and Bartlett over our double-play combination.


How are Inge and Uribe any different? Both have 20+ homers, low averages, high K's and reputations for great defense/arm and booting some average plays due to a lack of concentration. Inge and Guillen both have ugly numbers of errors bringing back Valentin's memory.

Would you rather have Inge at 3B, Monroe or Thames in LF and Castillo over Iguchi at 2B with Granderson in CF?

I think that both the Minnesota and Tigers numbers demonstrate ONE obvious point...."small ball" or "3 run homer/low contact ball"

You need good pitching to win, which we didn't have this year.

It's actually fascinating.

Monroe/Thames vs. Pods/Ozuna vs. Tyner/White
Guillen vs. Uribe vs. Bartlett
Inge vs. Crede vs. Punto/Batista
Granderson vs. Anderson vs. Hunter
Polanco/Perez vs. Iguchi vs. Castillo

Can you definitely say you would prefer the Twins' or the Tigers' players at those five positions over the White Sox players? I certainly would call it far from automatic.

Guillen, Crede and Hunter would be the three obvious picks...but 2B and LF could be argued for weeks.

It's ALL about the pitching.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 04:30 PM
Brian Anderson with a runner on 3rd less than 2 outs
17 at bats - 6 hits - 3 strikeouts - 16 rbi - .353 avg

Juan Uribe
24-7-21-7-.292

Tadahito
23-7-12-3-.304

Pods
17-5-17-3-.294

As DJ has said for the last three months, Pods has been one of our better clutch RBI guys. Usually singles, but he's been fine driving in runs, just hasn't done what he's actually supposed to do, which is be a threat to the other team on the basepaths.

And his defense has been MUCH worse than last season.

soxinem1
09-26-2006, 04:42 PM
Okay, lets end this little blame-pointing too:

Last year Paulie, Everett/Thomas, Dye, AJ, Crede were the resident base-cloggers, and Rowand hit into quite a few DP's. This year you add Thome, who's only hit into a handfull of DP's, and he is not much slower than Carl/Frank, so what is the point? And as far as K's, Thomas and Everett combined for 130K's last year and the team whiffed over a 1,000 times. The teams OBP was only .322.

They made the plays, hit when it counted, and pitched balls tough in 2005. This was lacking in 2006.

Plus, Iguchi didn't run at all this year, did we seem to forget that? Pablo, Rowand, Harris, and Tad all pitched in a few SB's last year, and those guys either aren't here or didn't run this season.

That is why this team failed, they didn't execute as a unit. Forget the small ball, K's ERA, OBP, etc.

Besides, if they would have won just a couple more games against KC and CLE (which should have been done with ease) and not blown 3-4 others they had in the bag in late innings, they would be getting ready to begin the playoffs.

This season was a TEAM failure, not one specific area.

Ol' No. 2
09-26-2006, 04:53 PM
Okay, lets end this little blame-pointing too:

Last year Paulie, Everett/Thomas, Dye, AJ, Crede were the resident base-cloggers, and Rowand hit into quite a few DP's. This year you add Thome, who's only hit into a handfull of DP's, and he is not much slower than Carl/Frank, so what is the point? And as far as K's, Thomas and Everett combined for 130K's last year and the team whiffed over a 1,000 times. The teams OBP was only .322.

They made the plays, hit when it counted, and pitched balls tough in 2005. This was lacking in 2006.

Plus, Iguchi didn't run at all this year, did we seem to forget that? Pablo, Rowand, Harris, and Tad all pitched in a few SB's last year, and those guys either aren't here or didn't run this season.

That is why this team failed, they didn't execute as a unit. Forget the small ball, K's ERA, OBP, etc.

Besides, if they would have won just a couple more games against KC and CLE (which should have been done with ease) and not blown 3-4 others they had in the bag in late innings, they would be getting ready to begin the playoffs.

This season was a TEAM failure, not one specific area.**Slow clapping.**

Thank you. It's a team game. Every one of these guys is responsible.

Why is it people feel the need to blame someone?

soxinem1
09-26-2006, 05:03 PM
Brian Anderson with a runner on 3rd less than 2 outs
17 at bats - 6 hits - 3 strikeouts - 16 rbi - .353 avg

Juan Uribe
24-7-21-7-.292

Tadahito
23-7-12-3-.304

Pods
17-5-17-3-.294

Matt,

How do these numbers for Uribe and Pods add up? Their K's and hits exceed AB's, according to this.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 05:10 PM
Okay, lets end this little blame-pointing too:

Last year Paulie, Everett/Thomas, Dye, AJ, Crede were the resident base-cloggers, and Rowand hit into quite a few DP's. This year you add Thome, who's only hit into a handfull of DP's, and he is not much slower than Carl/Frank, so what is the point? And as far as K's, Thomas and Everett combined for 130K's last year and the team whiffed over a 1,000 times. The teams OBP was only .322.

They made the plays, hit when it counted, and pitched balls tough in 2005. This was lacking in 2006.

Plus, Iguchi didn't run at all this year, did we seem to forget that? Pablo, Rowand, Harris, and Tad all pitched in a few SB's last year, and those guys either aren't here or didn't run this season.

That is why this team failed, they didn't execute as a unit. Forget the small ball, K's ERA, OBP, etc.

Besides, if they would have won just a couple more games against KC and CLE (which should have been done with ease) and not blown 3-4 others they had in the bag in late innings, they would be getting ready to begin the playoffs.

This season was a TEAM failure, not one specific area.

And if Minnesota started with...

Punto instead of Batista, Neshek, Liriano in rotation and healthy all year, Garza and Bonser instead of Baker and Lohse, no injuries to Radke, Hunter, Stewart, Ford.....

They would have won 115 games or 80.

We'll never know. But I don't think anyone can argue we deserved to be in the playoffs...not anyone who watched the slow death march over the last 2 1/2 months, death by 1,000 cuts as Ozzie called it.

Hangar18
09-26-2006, 05:19 PM
Matt,

How do these numbers for Uribe and Pods add up? Their K's and hits exceed AB's, according to this.



OOOOPS

JB98
09-26-2006, 06:07 PM
How are Inge and Uribe any different? Both have 20+ homers, low averages, high K's and reputations for great defense/arm and booting some average plays due to a lack of concentration. Inge and Guillen both have ugly numbers of errors bringing back Valentin's memory.

Would you rather have Inge at 3B, Monroe or Thames in LF and Castillo over Iguchi at 2B with Granderson in CF?

I think that both the Minnesota and Tigers numbers demonstrate ONE obvious point...."small ball" or "3 run homer/low contact ball"

You need good pitching to win, which we didn't have this year.

It's actually fascinating.

Monroe/Thames vs. Pods/Ozuna vs. Tyner/White
Guillen vs. Uribe vs. Bartlett
Inge vs. Crede vs. Punto/Batista
Granderson vs. Anderson vs. Hunter
Polanco/Perez vs. Iguchi vs. Castillo

Can you definitely say you would prefer the Twins' or the Tigers' players at those five positions over the White Sox players? I certainly would call it far from automatic.

Guillen, Crede and Hunter would be the three obvious picks...but 2B and LF could be argued for weeks.

It's ALL about the pitching.

This thread isn't about pitching. I know pitching is the biggest reason we lost this year. I've stated repeatedly that the bullpen is the biggest issue for KW to address this offseason.

I started this thread as a topic about the offense, not about pitching. Our offensive production was down by a run a game after the All-Star break. Do you think the offensive team we've trotted out there was good enough to win a championship? How would you characterize our offensive execution in the second half? Personally, I think it was terrible.

If you want to talk about pitching, start another thread.

wassagstdu
09-26-2006, 06:25 PM
Over 100 SO for Iguchi! That's got to change.

CLR01
09-26-2006, 06:25 PM
Matt,

How do these numbers for Uribe and Pods add up? Their K's and hits exceed AB's, according to this.


The last two columns should be flipped. As typed for Pods Uribe and Iguchi it goes AB-H-RBI-SO. Anderson is AB-H-SO-RBI

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 06:26 PM
This thread isn't about pitching. I know pitching is the biggest reason we lost this year. I've stated repeatedly that the bullpen is the biggest issue for KW to address this offseason.

I started this thread as a topic about the offense, not about pitching. Our offensive production was down by a run a game after the All-Star break. Do you think the offensive team we've trotted out there was good enough to win a championship? How would you characterize our offensive execution in the second half? Personally, I think it was terrible.

If you want to talk about pitching, start another thread.

Obviously, you haven't read your own thread.

What's the point? Baseball is a team game, and two posters clearly pointed out that you can't deconstruct and diagnose the situation and boil it down to "small ball" or "strikeouts" or Thome/Anderson versus Everett/Thomas/Rowand.

You win as a team and lose as a team.

The Detroit Tigers led the AL in strikeouts (the subject of your thread) and they're in the playoffs.

How can you explain that?

We had a better offense than Minnesota this season. The Twins are in the playoffs, we are not.

Why are you trying to make this about Anderson, Pods, Uribe and Iguchi?

Since when is Iguchi a weakness on this team? Because he struck out half as many times as Curtis Granderson.

Why isn't the Tigers' strikeout ratio horrible? It truly is. You can overlook a lot of things if you have a winning ballclub that gets to the playoffs...if we had the staff of the Twins or Tigers this year, it wouldn't even be fair to the record books how good our team would be.

Patrick134
09-26-2006, 06:30 PM
Obviously, you haven't read your own thread.

What's the point? Baseball is a team game, and two posters clearly pointed out that you can't deconstruct and diagnose the situation and boil it down to "small ball" or "strikeouts" or Thome/Anderson versus Everett/Thomas/Rowand.

You win as a team and lose as a team.

The Detroit Tigers led the AL in strikeouts (the subject of your thread) and they're in the playoffs.

How can you explain that?

We had a better offense than Minnesota this season. The Twins are in the playoffs, we are not.

Why are you trying to make this about Anderson, Pods, Uribe and Iguchi?

Since when is Iguchi a weakness on this team? Because he struck out half as many times as Curtis Granderson.

Why isn't the Tigers' strikeout ratio horrible? It truly is. You can overlook a lot of things if you have a winning ballclub that gets to the playoffs...if we had the staff of the Twins or Tigers this year, it wouldn't even be fair to the record books how good our team would be.


Forget the Twins and Tigers, if we had our starting staff of last year we'd have been off the charts. The Sox were 57-23 after 80 games. Then Buerlhe fizzled, as did Contreras. Throw in some Vazquez 6th inning magic, and you've got an awful 2nd half.

Ol' No. 2
09-26-2006, 06:31 PM
Over 100 SO for Iguchi! That's got to change.He had 114 last year. The fact is, as a team they didn't strike out any more this year than last, and man for man, they're about the same as last year, so it's pretty hard to insist that's a significant factor.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 06:33 PM
Forget the Twins and Tigers, if we had our starting staff of last year we'd have been off the charts. The Sox were 57-23 after 80 games. Then Buerlhe fizzled, as did Contreras. Throw in some Vazquez 6th inning magic, and you've got an awful 2nd half.

You're forgetting Freddy "Big Game" Garcia...he of the multiple losses to the Royals.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 06:34 PM
Forget the Twins and Tigers, if we had our starting staff of last year we'd have been off the charts. The Sox were 57-23 after 80 games. Then Buerlhe fizzled, as did Contreras. Throw in some Vazquez 6th inning magic, and you've got an awful 2nd half.


We were 27 games over .500 before we played the Red Sox at home.

Patrick134
09-26-2006, 06:35 PM
You're forgetting Freddy "Big Game" Garcia...he of the multiple losses to the Royals.


Good point. Heck the league hit .300 off Garland for the season as well. while the offense was certainly spotty at times, it's the inconsistency of the big 5 that really told the tale this year.

Ol' No. 2
09-26-2006, 06:36 PM
You're forgetting Freddy "Big Game" Garcia...he of the multiple losses to the Royals.:garcia: But if we'd had any big games in October, I would have been ready.

JB98
09-26-2006, 06:43 PM
Obviously, you haven't read your own thread.

What's the point? Baseball is a team game, and two posters clearly pointed out that you can't deconstruct and diagnose the situation and boil it down to "small ball" or "strikeouts" or Thome/Anderson versus Everett/Thomas/Rowand.

You win as a team and lose as a team.

The Detroit Tigers led the AL in strikeouts (the subject of your thread) and they're in the playoffs.

How can you explain that?

We had a better offense than Minnesota this season. The Twins are in the playoffs, we are not.

Why are you trying to make this about Anderson, Pods, Uribe and Iguchi?

Since when is Iguchi a weakness on this team? Because he struck out half as many times as Curtis Granderson.

Why isn't the Tigers' strikeout ratio horrible? It truly is. You can overlook a lot of things if you have a winning ballclub that gets to the playoffs...if we had the staff of the Twins or Tigers this year, it wouldn't even be fair to the record books how good our team would be.

I've watched the Sox for 157 games this season, and I see us missing scoring opportunities against good pitching because of poor execution. The four biggest culprits are the four I mentioned.

None of our overall offensive numbers are that bad. The thing is, that can be deceiving because I think we pile on against pitchers that have mediocre and bad stuff. When we need to manufacture a run in a tight game against a good pitcher, we can't do it.

Hypothetically, let's say we have men at second and third with one out against a Johan Santana or a Jeremy Bonderman. Do you trust Anderson to get the man in from third? How about Uribe? Pods? I'd answer no on all three counts. Hell, I don't know if I'd trust AJ or Tadahito. Chances are we're going to get a pop up or a strike out.

Anyone can pile on against the Joel Pineiro's of the world, but to me, it comes down to who hits good pitchers well and who can make contact in a situation that requires contact against a tough pitcher. We're terrible in that area, and that has nothing to do with the Tigers strikeout ratio.

OK, so BA is 6-for-17 with a man at third or whatever. Tell me who the pitcher was and what the situation was. Was it a tight game? Or was it a 8-1 blowout? Against the ace of the other team's staff? Or against a fifth starter? There are variables here that can't be weighed by looking at a bunch of numbers.

You know as well as I do that we're getting rallies killed all over the place in the second half. To me, strikeouts are a major problem at the top and bottom of the order, just as GIDPs are a major problem in the middle. Our situation hitting SUCKS no matter what way you slice it and no matter how many damn strikeouts Curtis Granderson had this season.

God, I regret ever mentioning anything.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 06:43 PM
:garcia: But if we'd had any big games in October, I would have been ready.


Don't forget the "I was great out there" quotes. A little humility is always becoming...goes a long ways with the fans.

Especially after getting beaten by the Royals twice in the span of a month when we actually needed to win.

Mohoney
09-26-2006, 06:49 PM
Brian Anderson with a runner on 3rd less than 2 outs
17 at bats - 6 hits - 3 strikeouts - 16 rbi - .353 avg

Juan Uribe
24-7-21-7-.292

Tadahito
23-7-12-3-.304

Pods
17-5-17-3-.294

Umm, how can this be? If Pods has 17 ABs here with 17 Ks, how can he have gotten 5 hits?

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 06:50 PM
I've watched the Sox for 157 games this season, and I see us missing scoring opportunities against good pitching because of poor execution. The four biggest culprits are the four I mentioned.

None of our overall offensive numbers are that bad. The thing is, that can be deceiving because I think we pile on against pitchers that have mediocre and bad stuff. When we need to manufacture a run in a tight game against a good pitcher, we can't do it.

Hypothetically, let's say we have men at second and third with one out against a Johan Santana or a Jeremy Bonderman. Do you trust Anderson to get the man in from third? How about Uribe? Pods? I'd answer no on all three counts. Hell, I don't know if I'd trust AJ or Tadahito. Chances are we're going to get a pop up or a strike out.

Anyone can pile on against the Joel Pineiro's of the world, but to me, it comes down to who hits good pitchers well and who can make contact in a situation that requires contact against a tough pitcher. We're terrible in that area, and that has nothing to do with the Tigers strikeout ratio.

OK, so BA is 6-for-17 with a man at third or whatever. Tell me who the pitcher was and what the situation was. Was it a tight game? Or was it a 8-1 blowout? Against the ace of the other team's staff? Or against a fifth starter? There are variables here that can't be weighed by looking at a bunch of numbers.

You know as well as I do that we're getting rallies killed all over the place in the second half. To me, strikeouts are a major problem at the top and bottom of the order, just as GIDPs are a major problem in the middle. Our situation hitting SUCKS no matter what way you slice it and no matter how many damn strikeouts Curtis Granderson had this season.

God, I regret ever mentioning anything.

Let's go back to Pods then...Uribe's Uribe, he's never going to change. You live and die with him or trade him.

Most of the time when he got on early and we got the lead last year (in the first half), he was a threat on the basepaths and was successful stealing. This often led to early 1-2 run leads that the starting pitching consistently kept for the remainder of the game, backed up by the best bullpen in the league (at least statistically).

How many times has that happened in the last 75 or so games? Once? Twice?

He hasn't been the same player since July of last year.

Our offense covered for it with the April and May explosion and wiping out the NL Central, but it wasn't going to last.

Speed doesn't slump...but Pods has, for a year and a half. This isn't a Konerko "half" or Buehrle "half" either.

He was the key player in setting the tone. We were fine with Anderson's .150 or .160 in the first half...

I think Anderson really has a lot to prove to OG and KW to get his starting job back. KW is going to go out and get a Dave Roberts or Clark (MIL) type of player (or even Mike Cameron) that doesn't break the bank but can play a legit CF if Anderson starts off slow again. He learned his lesson this year the hard way.

Mohoney
09-26-2006, 06:52 PM
The last two columns should be flipped. As typed for Pods Uribe and Iguchi it goes AB-H-RBI-SO. Anderson is AB-H-SO-RBI

Thanks. Now it makes sense.

Ol' No. 2
09-26-2006, 06:57 PM
I've watched the Sox for 157 games this season, and I see us missing scoring opportunities against good pitching because of poor execution. The four biggest culprits are the four I mentioned.

None of our overall offensive numbers are that bad. The thing is, that can be deceiving because I think we pile on against pitchers that have mediocre and bad stuff. When we need to manufacture a run in a tight game against a good pitcher, we can't do it.

Hypothetically, let's say we have men at second and third with one out against a Johan Santana or a Jeremy Bonderman. Do you trust Anderson to get the man in from third? How about Uribe? Pods? I'd answer no on all three counts. Hell, I don't know if I'd trust AJ or Tadahito. Chances are we're going to get a pop up or a strike out.

Anyone can pile on against the Joel Pineiro's of the world, but to me, it comes down to who hits good pitchers well and who can make contact in a situation that requires contact against a tough pitcher. We're terrible in that area, and that has nothing to do with the Tigers strikeout ratio.

OK, so BA is 6-for-17 with a man at third or whatever. Tell me who the pitcher was and what the situation was. Was it a tight game? Or was it a 8-1 blowout? Against the ace of the other team's staff? Or against a fifth starter? There are variables here that can't be weighed by looking at a bunch of numbers.

You know as well as I do that we're getting rallies killed all over the place in the second half. To me, strikeouts are a major problem at the top and bottom of the order, just as GIDPs are a major problem in the middle. Our situation hitting SUCKS no matter what way you slice it and no matter how many damn strikeouts Curtis Granderson had this season.

God, I regret ever mentioning anything.But they struck out just as much last season, so how can you point to strikeouts and say they were the determining factor?

pre ASB: they scored 46.9% of RISP (tops in all of MLB)
post ASB: they scored 42.6% of RISP (12th in MLB, 8th in the AL)

It's not your imagination. They failed to execute in key situations. But I don't necessarily think SO were any more a factor that GIDP or popups. And I don't think you can point to any player more than any other. They all failed to execute.

But it's also getting runners into scoring position, and with a discrepancy this large, you can't lay the blame on any one person. This isn't just Pods not getting on base - it's everybody.

pre ASB: 680 RISP (4th in MLB)
post ASB: 458 RISP (24th in MLB)

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 07:04 PM
But they struck out just as much last season, so how can you point to strikeouts and say they were the determining factor?

pre ASB: they scored 46.9% of RISP (tops in all of MLB)
post ASB: they scored 42.6% of RISP (12th in MLB, 8th in the AL)

It's not your imagination. They failed to execute in key situations. But I don't necessarily think SO were any more a factor that GIDP or popups. And I don't think you can point to any player more than any other. They all failed to execute.

But it's also getting runners into scoring position, and with a discrepancy this large, you can't lay the blame on any one person. This isn't just Pods not getting on base - it's everybody.

pre ASB: 680 RISP (4th in MLB)
post ASB: 458 RISP (24th in MLB)


There's the rub...some of our best, core players really slumped, especially Crede and Thome, if you look at their mid-year projections and where they are now. Konerko was so-so, hit into way too many DP's and not enough homers....Dye raked, and AJ was inconsistent.

So we turn to the obvious targets, Anderson/Pods/Uribe, because most of us admire the way Iguchi plays and really find it hard to blame him for much of anything. He's a great "complementary" player IMO.

But the most polarizing arguments around here promise to be about Pods and Anderson, coupled with which one of the starting pitchers we want gone (and you could make legitimate arguments for each one of them).

CLR01
09-26-2006, 08:39 PM
OK, so BA is 6-for-17 with a man at third or whatever. Tell me who the pitcher was and what the situation was. Was it a tight game? Or was it a 8-1 blowout? Against the ace of the other team's staff? Or against a fifth starter? There are variables here that can't be weighed by looking at a bunch of numbers.


How many times did the 3-7 guys ground out in those situations? How many infield/foul pop ups did we see from those guys? Double Plays? Strikeouts? Anderson, Podsednik and Iguchi's high strikeout numbers are not any worse that any of those other guys in that situation, Uribes was bad.. How effective were the 3-7 guys against Santana and some of the other no. 1 pitchers in the league? What about the nobodies? Lefties?

Really who cares who the pitcher or what the situation is as long as the batter is getting the job done. Looking at the numbers everyone seemed to do an ok job when there was less than 2 outs and a man on third. Wait I take that back, one guy sucked in that situation and it doesn't surprise me he was left out of this thread.

Mackowiak
10 ab
1 Hit
6 RBI
3 SO
2 SF/SH


But he gives us a better chance................

JB98
09-27-2006, 12:57 AM
Ozzie says essentially what I said this afternoon.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060926soxgamer,1,6885051.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

JB98
09-27-2006, 01:00 AM
How many times did the 3-7 guys ground out in those situations? How many infield/foul pop ups did we see from those guys? Double Plays? Strikeouts? Anderson, Podsednik and Iguchi's high strikeout numbers are not any worse that any of those other guys in that situation, Uribes was bad.. How effective were the 3-7 guys against Santana and some of the other no. 1 pitchers in the league? What about the nobodies? Lefties?

Really who cares who the pitcher or what the situation is as long as the batter is getting the job done. Looking at the numbers everyone seemed to do an ok job when there was less than 2 outs and a man on third. Wait I take that back, one guy sucked in that situation and it doesn't surprise me he was left out of this thread.

Mackowiak
10 ab
1 Hit
6 RBI
3 SO
2 SF/SH


But he gives us a better chance................

We suck with both Anderson and Mackowiak in CF, and I am so ****ing tired of this argument.

Chips
09-27-2006, 01:17 AM
We suck with both Anderson and Mackowiak in CF, and I am so ****ing tired of this argument.

:rolleyes:

Our sucking has nothing to do with Anderson playing in center.

JB98
09-27-2006, 01:33 AM
:rolleyes:

Our sucking has nothing to do with Anderson playing in center.

His .230 batting average has nothing to do with our sucking.

Chips
09-27-2006, 01:46 AM
His .230 batting average has nothing to do with our sucking.

Anderson hit .161 in April, the Sox went 17-7
Anderson hit .167 in May, the Sox went 16-12
Anderson hit .196 in June, the Sox went 19-8
Anderson hit .313 in July, the Sox went 10-15
Anderson hit .296 in August, the Sox went 16-13
Anderson is hitting .217 in September, the Sox are 9-15

I don't have time to find out what the Sox record is games when Anderson starts, but I know it is pretty damn good.

Anderson's average and strikeouts are not the reasons that we suck.

And as it was mentioned before, our strikeouts are very similiar to last year.

JB98
09-27-2006, 02:24 AM
Anderson hit .161 in April, the Sox went 17-7
Anderson hit .167 in May, the Sox went 16-12
Anderson hit .196 in June, the Sox went 19-8
Anderson hit .313 in July, the Sox went 10-15
Anderson hit .296 in August, the Sox went 16-13
Anderson is hitting .217 in September, the Sox are 9-15

I don't have time to find out what the Sox record is games when Anderson starts, but I know it is pretty damn good.

Anderson's average and strikeouts are not the reasons that we suck.

And as it was mentioned before, our strikeouts are very similiar to last year.

For the 1000th time, Anderson gives us nothing offensively. What does he do well offensively? Does he hit for power? Does he steal bases? Can he bunt? Does he hit in the clutch? Is he a good situational hitter? This guy has 400 plate appearances and only 33 RBIs.

When you combine Anderson's lack of productivity with Uribe's struggles and Pods' woes, you've got a problem. Everyone complains about the middle of the order and all the solo home runs. Well, that's the only way we can score because the top and the bottom of the batting order aren't doing much.

Yes, pitching and specifically the bullpen are the biggest reasons for the 2006 Sox demise. But this offense is not good enough either. Late in the season, guys get tired and the bats get heavy. Some of the power hitting goes away, and what are you left with?

Ask Javier Vazquez about our excellent offense. He's made five starts this month, and we've been shut out in three of those games. We've scored a grand total of six runs for him in September. I'm not a FOJV by any means, but it's pretty hard to win a damn game when you have to throw a shutout. Thome and Konerko constantly get blamed for everything that goes wrong offensively, and certainly, they deserve some criticism. Personally, I'm more than happy to join the club in throwing Pods under the bus. But it amazes me that Uribe, Iguchi and Anderson are all getting a free pass. In fact, BA has become a martyr, joining Ross Gload, Aaron Rowand and Tony Graffanino in the WSI shrine of vastly overrated players.

CLR01
09-27-2006, 03:28 AM
But it amazes me that Uribe, Iguchi and Anderson are all getting a free pass. In fact, BA has become a martyr, joining Ross Gload, Aaron Rowand and Tony Graffanino in the WSI shrine of vastly overrated players.



***** the "Anderson love" is nothing that Crede, Garland or McCarthy haven't received in the last few years. He may be talked about more but that is only because a handful of people, Ozzie included, can't stop pointing their finger at the 24 yo rookie and declaring him responsible for the Sox failures. If Ozzie stopped giving weekly quotes and the fans stopped wondering where we would be if Rowand or some other alternative was patrolling CF this year the Anderson talk would slow to a trickle. Nobody is saying Anderson is great they are just pointing out the despite popular believe he has improved to a point more acceptable for a rookie starter and to a point where it makes zero sense to keep throwing an infielder into center.

And the Anderson love still falls short of the love Rowand and Graff have and do receive.


Uribe getting a free pass is an excellent question. If you want to ask someone why he gets one ask Ozzie. Uribe has been just as pathetic at the plate as Anderson, and he has been that way a lot longer than Brian, yet he gets trotted out there 5-6 times a week without a second thought. Then after the game we have to hear more of Ozzie's thoughts on Anderson. I don't think I would be too upset if Cintron was starting at short next year. At least then the Sox would have someone who might try to move a runner over instead of swinging for the fundamentals deck every time up.

Jaffar
09-27-2006, 10:50 AM
I went back and fixed the order of Anderson's numbers to go with the other guys. Sorry about that.

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2006, 11:15 AM
For the 1000th time, Anderson gives us nothing offensively. What does he do well offensively? Does he hit for power? Does he steal bases? Can he bunt? Does he hit in the clutch? Is he a good situational hitter? This guy has 400 plate appearances and only 33 RBIs.

When you combine Anderson's lack of productivity with Uribe's struggles and Pods' woes, you've got a problem. Everyone complains about the middle of the order and all the solo home runs. Well, that's the only way we can score because the top and the bottom of the batting order aren't doing much.

Yes, pitching and specifically the bullpen are the biggest reasons for the 2006 Sox demise. But this offense is not good enough either. Late in the season, guys get tired and the bats get heavy. Some of the power hitting goes away, and what are you left with?

Ask Javier Vazquez about our excellent offense. He's made five starts this month, and we've been shut out in three of those games. We've scored a grand total of six runs for him in September. I'm not a FOJV by any means, but it's pretty hard to win a damn game when you have to throw a shutout. Thome and Konerko constantly get blamed for everything that goes wrong offensively, and certainly, they deserve some criticism. Personally, I'm more than happy to join the club in throwing Pods under the bus. But it amazes me that Uribe, Iguchi and Anderson are all getting a free pass. In fact, BA has become a martyr, joining Ross Gload, Aaron Rowand and Tony Graffanino in the WSI shrine of vastly overrated players.To repeat once again, this was a TEAM failure. Anderson doesn't get a pass any more than anyone else, but you can't blame him any more than anyone else, either.