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White Sox Randy
09-26-2006, 02:31 PM
a rotation of McCarthy, Haeger, Broadway, Heath Phillips and Tim Redding ?

Why does it seem like whoever they bring up from the minors, any year, immediately produces in the lineup or the bullpen or the rotation ?

Are they that much better than us at finding and developing young talent ?

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 03:08 PM
a rotation of McCarthy, Haeger, Broadway, Heath Phillips and Tim Redding ?

Why does it seem like whoever they bring up from the minors, any year, immediately produces in the lineup or the bullpen or the rotation ?

Are they that much better than us at finding and developing young talent ?


Scouting and trading, for sure...

Silva (Phillies)
Liriano (Giants)
Santana (Astros-Marlins)
Nathan (Giants)
Guerrier (White Sox-Pirates)
Bonser (Giants)

They drafted Garza (after Broadway in 05), Baker and Radke way back when. So it's a combination of things, but they haven't drafted many pitchers successfully until Garza. Jury's still out on Baker.

AJ Pierzynski, in essence, won us and lost us a WS in one fell swoop, because Nathan, Liriano and Bonser destroyed the Central this season.

It really comes down to that one trade and identifying Santana early in the Rule 5 draft. Silva hasn't been great this year, that's an understatement.

The other thing you have to remember is that Bonser was highly regarded at one point....similar to Jenks, Garland, Thornton, Loiaza or Contreras at different points in their careers.

Obviously, you have to give a lot of credit to their pitching coach as well as their minor league (especially AA and AAA) staffs.


Another stark difference...we brought in 7 "unknowns" from the LH side for one bullpen position. The Twins brought in Dennys Reyes, another major question mark. And Neshek emerged from their system to become a stud, whereas Tracey, Montero, Bajenaru, Valentine, Majewski, Francisco, Rupe, Grilli, Bradford, Foulke, Rick White, Lowe, Fogg, R. Hernandez, Howry, Wickman, Sturtze, Royce Ring, Rauch, Ginter, Embree, Guerrier....either flamed out or didn't stay with the White Sox.

White Sox Randy
09-26-2006, 04:07 PM
Right. But why do we have so many misses and they have so many hits ?

Neshek is almost unhittable .

What would you have said at the beginning of the season if someone told you that we couldn't catch the Twins down the stretch even though Liriano and Radke were out injured and Silva was pitching badly because they're going to win with Santana, Bonser, Garza and Baker ?

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 04:19 PM
Right. But why do we have so many misses and they have so many hits ?

Neshek is almost unhittable .

What would you have said at the beginning of the season if someone told you that we couldn't catch the Twins down the stretch even though Liriano and Radke were out injured and Silva was pitching badly because they're going to win with Santana, Bonser, Garza and Baker ?

Neshek was pretty darned good in the minors, but it took him 3+ years despite being a college pitcher.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/N/pat-neshek.shtml

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3686
But look at Reyes, he's been under a 4.24 ERA only twice in the last ten seasons coming into this year.

These two guys were Politte and Cotts...you have to get a little lucky sometimes.

I would have said the odds were about 20%, knowing how difficult it was to repeat and that Minnesota always seems (or seemed) to have our number when it counts the most. Sox fans have discounted them 4 of the last 5 years, and been rudely surprised 80% of the time.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2006, 10:25 PM
Randy:

Short answer...YES.

But you also have to factor in this. Sox fans by and large will not put up with 'rebuilding' well. The Twins aren't going to draw a lot of fans anyway so it doesn't matter with them. They are only concerned about keeping the payroll down.

The Sox on the other hand HAVE to be concerned about it because as history has shown, if the Sox are garbage, Sox fans will not waste their money. And the times by and large when the Sox have gone basically with kids, it didn't work out very well.

Lip

Sox-o-matic
09-26-2006, 10:35 PM
Randy:

Short answer...YES.

But you also have to factor in this. Sox fans by and large will not put up with 'rebuilding' well. The Twins aren't going to draw a lot of fans anyway so it doesn't matter with them. They are only concerned about keeping the payroll down.

The Sox on the other hand HAVE to be concerned about it because as history has shown, if the Sox are garbage, Sox fans will not waste their money. And the times by and large when the Sox have gone basically with kids, it didn't work out very well.

Lip

Very true. Remember how terrible Punto, Cuddyer, Bartlett, Morneau, etc. were last year? Many Sox fans can't even put up with a terrible first half by Brian Anderson and are already hoping he gets shipped out. I can't imagine how everyone around here would act if we had to go through what the Twins went through just last year alone.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 10:36 PM
Randy:

Short answer...YES.

But you also have to factor in this. Sox fans by and large will not put up with 'rebuilding' well. The Twins aren't going to draw a lot of fans anyway so it doesn't matter with them. They are only concerned about keeping the payroll down.

The Sox on the other hand HAVE to be concerned about it because as history has shown, if the Sox are garbage, Sox fans will not waste their money. And the times by and large when the Sox have gone basically with kids, it didn't work out very well.

Lip


Joe Borchard and Kip Wells could have ended up All-Stars in Minnesota.

Not sure whether to teal that or not.

The amazing thing has been their "reloading" only took one year...from 04 til 06. I think we were all thinking MAYBE next year and probably the year after.

Heck, in June, some were speculating about dumping Santana and Hunter and building the whole thing over from scratch.

Sox-o-matic
09-26-2006, 10:47 PM
Joe Borchard and Kip Wells could have ended up All-Stars in Minnesota.

Not sure whether to teal that or not.

The amazing thing has been their "reloading" only took one year...from 04 til 06. I think we were all thinking MAYBE next year and probably the year after.

Heck, in June, some were speculating about dumping Santana and Hunter and building the whole thing over from scratch.

I don't think they really rebuilt anything on their offensive side except for Mauer and Morneau. Cuddyer has always been and will always be a bench player who only starts on a team like the Twins because ownership won't pay to get anything better. And I have a feeling Punto and Tyner are going to go the same way as Lew Ford.

These guys just are having career years and when Hunter, Castillo, and Stewart are all gone, they will hurt offensively. Even if Kubel develops enough the Twins won't have anywhere near enough offense IMO to compete with the likes of the Sox, Cleveland, Detroit, and maybe even KC. The only way they are going to continue to win games is by keeping a nasty starting rotation and a dominant bullpen, and unfortunately for us it looks like they will have that for a while now.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 11:15 PM
I don't think they really rebuilt anything on their offensive side except for Mauer and Morneau. Cuddyer has always been and will always be a bench player who only starts on a team like the Twins because ownership won't pay to get anything better. And I have a feeling Punto and Tyner are going to go the same way as Lew Ford.

These guys just are having career years and when Hunter, Castillo, and Stewart are all gone, they will hurt offensively. Even if Kubel develops enough the Twins won't have anywhere near enough offense IMO to compete with the likes of the Sox, Cleveland, Detroit, and maybe even KC. The only way they are going to continue to win games is by keeping a nasty starting rotation and a dominant bullpen, and unfortunately for us it looks like they will have that for a while now.

If they spend the money saved on Radke and Hunter, that $25 million, in Ryan's able hands, could be the end of us again, if used judiciously.

Obviously, they'll go after a veteran starter in the Kenny Rogers/Paul Byrd vein.

Probably, they will find a cheaper CF (like Mathews, Jr.) to go with Kubel in LF and Tyner as the 4th OF.

They don't need a better line-up than the 2005 White Sox if Liriano comes back, Garza and Bonser continue to improve and Santana keeps on being CySantana.

That's four starters, plus they have Baker, maybe Silva (although they could dump him to save another $4-5 million) and any starters they acquired.

Our best chance would be Mauer, Cuddyer or Morneau being injured in that scenario.

They went from Ford, Jones, Stewart, Koskie, Guzman, Rivas, Doug M and AJ to what they have now in 2 years...I think that's a pretty big turnover myself.

MVP
09-27-2006, 11:03 AM
Minnesota hasn't been kicking our butts for the last 5 years because their players are any more talented that ours. On paper our players are superior, but their players know how to do the little things necessary to win and they actually play a team game. With the exception of last year, their teams are much better at bunting, fielding, moving the runners along, getting the sacrifice flies when they need them, putting pressure on the opposition on the basepaths, preventing the other team from having big innings, etc., etc., etc. They're better at doing all the little things that don't show up in the boxscores. They teach their players how to do these things in their minor league system. So, to answer your original question, Minnesota probably would have beaten us with the pitching staff you proposed- if those players had been at least partially brought up in their minor league system. I truly believe that.

Mudville
09-27-2006, 03:19 PM
a rotation of McCarthy, Haeger, Broadway, Heath Phillips and Tim Redding ?

Twins wouldn't win with that rotation, but I understand your point--they definitely get good mileage from their marginal talent. But Minnesota wouldn't have won anything without Santana--end of story. A better question might be: Could the Twins win with a rotation of Santana, McCarthy, Haeger, etc.? I think the answer still is yes, because that's pretty close to what their rotation looks like right now.

PatK
09-27-2006, 03:26 PM
I don't think Gary Matthews Jr is going to be cheap this off season.

the gooch
09-27-2006, 03:43 PM
I don't think Gary Matthews Jr is going to be cheap this off season.
probably not but he will come cheaper than what Hunter is asking.

caulfield12
09-27-2006, 03:43 PM
I don't think Gary Matthews Jr is going to be cheap this off season.

Notice I said "cheaper."

He's not going to make $10-12 million per season, if he does, we might as well forget Ichiro, Soriano, Crawford...they will be way out of our league either due to salary or talent we have to give up.

DumpJerry
09-27-2006, 04:58 PM
Ok, we've been hearing all season about the Twins' system and AJ talks about it having come up through it. They instill a certain way of playing baseball in the kids they draft starting in Rookie League and do not vary from that plan while they move up towards The Big Show. This is why they are fungible-they all play the same way at their respective position.

The Billionaire owner of the Twins is too cheap to do the FA thing, so they do the development thing instead. It works until they face the Yankees in the playoffs.

Beautox
09-29-2006, 01:33 AM
Ok, we've been hearing all season about the Twins' system and AJ talks about it having come up through it. They instill a certain way of playing baseball in the kids they draft starting in Rookie League and do not vary from that plan while they move up towards The Big Show. This is why they are fungible-they all play the same way at their respective position.

The Billionaire owner of the Twins is too cheap to do the FA thing, so they do the development thing instead. It works until they face the Yankees in the playoffs.

lol true.