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View Full Version : I trust Kenny..we will be back stronger than ever in 2007..


tony1972
09-26-2006, 11:40 AM
One good thing about this season is that I think it was a showcase for what happens when we stray too far from basic baseball fundamentals (good pitching, speed, defense, smart offense, etc.) in a lot of ways the 2006 team reminded me of the teams we had pre-2005 (average pitching, so-so defense, but powerful home run hitting offense) that would always make us competitive, but never good enough to seal the deal.

I think Williams will do everything he can to help to build this team back to what bought us our championship in 2005. We had too many players swinging for the fences, bad baserunning, etc...and I'd rather see good solid players next year - than just big names and big boppers.

I really have faith in Williams. This season taught us what not to do to be contenders. 2006 will not be in vain if the White Sox learn from it to improve..

I look forward to 2007 (what am I going to do for six months with no baseball?...:(: )

jenn2080
09-26-2006, 11:53 AM
I don't think Kenny could have predicted that some of the team was going to under perform. The only thing Kenny should have done was get a back up outfielder. Other then that I think he did what was needed to win, it just did not work out that way.

MarySwiss
09-26-2006, 11:57 AM
One good thing about this season is that I think it was a showcase for what happens when we stray too far from basic baseball fundamentals (good pitching, speed, defense, smart offense, etc.) in a lot of ways the 2006 team reminded me of the teams we had pre-2005 (average pitching, so-so defense, but powerful home run hitting offense) that would always make us competitive, but never good enough to seal the deal.

I think Williams will do everything he can to help to build this team back to what bought us our championship in 2005. We had too many players swinging for the fences, bad baserunning, etc...and I'd rather see good solid players next year - than just big names and big boppers.

I really have faith in Williams. This season taught us what not to do to be contenders. 2006 will not be in vain if the White Sox learn from it to improve..

I look forward to 2007 (what am I going to do for six months with no baseball?...:(: )

Nice post; I agree completely. As for what you're going to do for six months, let's see--pro and college football, pro and college basketball, got the holidays coming up, then the college bowls, Super Bowl, March Madness, and NBA playoffs.

Wait, I'm forgetting something....SPRING TRAINING!!! Start saving those pennies for your Spring Training vacation.

Feel better? :smile:

southside rocks
09-26-2006, 12:01 PM
One good thing about this season is that I think it was a showcase for what happens when we stray too far from basic baseball fundamentals (good pitching, speed, defense, smart offense, etc.) in a lot of ways the 2006 team reminded me of the teams we had pre-2005 (average pitching, so-so defense, but powerful home run hitting offense) that would always make us competitive, but never good enough to seal the deal.

I think Williams will do everything he can to help to build this team back to what bought us our championship in 2005. We had too many players swinging for the fences, bad baserunning, etc...and I'd rather see good solid players next year - than just big names and big boppers.

I really have faith in Williams. This season taught us what not to do to be contenders. 2006 will not be in vain if the White Sox learn from it to improve..

I look forward to 2007 (what am I going to do for six months with no baseball?...:(: )

Well, here's a thought -- and it might be complete nonsense, I'm just killing time at work trying to avoid a project, and wallowing in Sox Sadness -- but maybe when a team plays gritty, grinder baseball, with base-hits and bunts and hit & run plays and base-stealing; maybe when a team has to scrounge for its runs every day -- maybe that team is more likely to show the "hunger" and "chemistry" that everyone says the '06 Sox didn't have.

In other words, maybe the style of baseball a team plays determines its attitude toward playing.

The Sox didn't play ball that way this year for a lot of reasons. The guys with speed just didn't get on enough; the middle of the lineup is slow and full of power hitters; and (this really can't be emphasized enough) the pitching just plain sucked for most of the year.

So what I want to see now is KW and OG make the changes that will return the club to one that strings together hits and plays that make runs, and uses the long ball to augment that strategy but not replace it.

I have nothing against homeruns, and I know the '05 Sox hit a ton of them; but this year, the homeruns have too often been the ONLY form of runs they could get. That's an imbalance that needs to be corrected.

They need to get some speed and some youth into the lineup, IMO. Konerko, Dye, and Thome are all old, in baseball years. Crede isn't, but he isn't fast, and neither is AJ. That's why I'm hoping to see good stuff this week from Ryan Sweeney, Jerry Owens, and Josh Fields.

Raise the OBP of the lineup and lower the age of the lineup, improve the pitching, and I think the '07 Sox will remind us more of the '05 champs than they will of the 'o6 disappointments.

Six months of no baseball ... I hate this time of year ... and I don't even like football! :whiner:

minutia
09-26-2006, 12:13 PM
One good thing about this season is that I think it was a showcase for what happens when we stray too far from basic baseball fundamentals (good pitching, speed, defense, smart offense, etc.) in a lot of ways the 2006 team reminded me of the teams we had pre-2005 (average pitching, so-so defense, but powerful home run hitting offense) that would always make us competitive, but never good enough to seal the deal.

I think Williams will do everything he can to help to build this team back to what bought us our championship in 2005. We had too many players swinging for the fences, bad baserunning, etc...and I'd rather see good solid players next year - than just big names and big boppers.

I really have faith in Williams. This season taught us what not to do to be contenders. 2006 will not be in vain if the White Sox learn from it to improve..

I look forward to 2007 (what am I going to do for six months with no baseball?...:(: )


I could not agree with you more. At some point in August I felt like I was watching the 2004 White Sox. That team started out strong too but fell apart in the second half. I have been incensed with all of the swinging for the fences stuff with runners in scoring position. The 2005 team picked up runs wherever they could. These guys seemed to just be trying to hit homers. I also think we paid way too high a price in centerfield even though I think Thome is a positive addition.

slavko
09-26-2006, 12:23 PM
Southside Rocks:

That's a nice post. Kenny thought he had improved the pitching for this year. The problem was that the "improved" pitching didn't pitch as well as the '05 pitching. It had only improved on paper, not the field. That's the chance you take. The rest of the team could either 1. run but not hit, 2. hit but not run.

Some posters have said they choked under the pressure of being expected to repeat, even though there would have seemed to be more pressure in '05 under the burden of an 88 year slump. If there was choking involved, what are the chances that roughly the same bunch is going to come back tall and proud a year later?

For this reason, I wouldn't be afraid to make major changes, including a middle-of-the-order hitter who could run a bit (JD is as close as we come now) to replace any one of the big boppers, even if home runs decreased some. I've seen too much of two hits and a walk resulting in the bases loaded with three guys who need a home run to score from second base.

It goes without saying that we need an OBP improvement at the 1-8-9 positions. We should expect changes:Kenny is the guy not afraid to make them.

Iwritecode
09-26-2006, 12:25 PM
I look forward to 2007 (what am I going to do for six months with no baseball?...:(: )

Six months of no baseball ... I hate this time of year ... and I don't even like football! :whiner:

I'm with you guys. The only thing I've got to look forward to are a few birthdays (mine included), all the holidays between now and then, one more weekend of camping and trying out my snowblower for the first time.

I'm not sure I'm actually looking forward to that last one...

mark2olson
09-26-2006, 12:39 PM
I'm with you guys. The only thing I've got to look forward to are a few birthdays (mine included), all the holidays between now and then, one more weekend of camping and trying out my snowblower for the first time.

I'm not sure I'm actually looking forward to that last one...

Actually, using a snowblower for the first time is kind of fun and leads to statements like "how did I do without this." After the first time, it becomes drudgery again.

Hitmen77
09-26-2006, 05:45 PM
I have confidence in Kenny in evaluating and addressing our needs at SS, LF, and the bullpen. Though, I think he's got his work cut out for him to figure all that out and make sure we have an adequate leadoff man.

However, in the end, regardless of how KW addresses those issues, I think our success in '07 will depend on whether Buehrle, Contreras, and our other remaining starters can rebound from a poor 2006. Without MB and JC struggling in the 2nd half, the Sox would be in the playoffs despite all their other shortcomings this year. Next year, once again, starting pitching will be the key. That's not to say that KW shouldn't improve other areas on the team (especially bullpen). But to be successful, he also has to hope for the starting pitchers to pull out of their tailspin.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 06:28 PM
One good thing about this season is that I think it was a showcase for what happens when we stray too far from basic baseball fundamentals (good pitching, speed, defense, smart offense, etc.) in a lot of ways the 2006 team reminded me of the teams we had pre-2005 (average pitching, so-so defense, but powerful home run hitting offense) that would always make us competitive, but never good enough to seal the deal.

I think Williams will do everything he can to help to build this team back to what bought us our championship in 2005. We had too many players swinging for the fences, bad baserunning, etc...and I'd rather see good solid players next year - than just big names and big boppers.

I really have faith in Williams. This season taught us what not to do to be contenders. 2006 will not be in vain if the White Sox learn from it to improve..

I look forward to 2007 (what am I going to do for six months with no baseball?...:(: )

Who do you want to trade?
Dye?
Crede?
Thome?
Konerko?
AJ?
And who are you going to get for them?

These four or five are not the cause of our problems by any stretch of the imagination.

Patrick134
09-26-2006, 06:50 PM
Who do you want to trade?
Dye?
Crede?
Thome?
Konerko?
AJ?
And who are you going to get for them?

These four or five are not the cause of our problems by any stretch of the imagination.


Great point. Look at all the rbis the middle of the order had. Then imagine how many more they could have had with a better leadoff hitter setting the table.

russ99
09-26-2006, 07:10 PM
Who do you want to trade?
Dye?
Crede?
Thome?
Konerko?
AJ?
And who are you going to get for them?

These four or five are not the cause of our problems by any stretch of the imagination.

Well, Kenny was quoted about how the Sox have too many strikeouts and not enough speed in the middle of the lineup, so something might move there, my money being on Crede due to the Boras situation, his back condition, Fields being ready to replace him and the fact that his trade value will probably never be higher than it is right now, especially considering the 2+ arb years left.

Crede+Garcia or Crede+Buehrle could get a whole heck of a lot (Crawford?) especially if the other GMs stop smoking ganja and are open for reasonable trades, instead of the insanity we saw at the deadline.

SoxEd
09-26-2006, 07:15 PM
I agree with everyone - the 2006 Sox season has been essentially 2003-2004 Redux:

The Sox have relied on the Big Swings to get them out of the trouble that less-than-perfect pitching & 'D' have got them into.
And, a lot of the time, the Big Swing has resulted in either a Big K, or just the one run scored.

As with those other seasons, the Twins have beaten us, and this time, so have the Tigers.

In 2007 we can hopefully see a return to a scrappy, hustling (dare I say it?) go-go Sox team, but one which still has Power in the middle.

I reckon that maybe our only (Position-player) need is a productive, speedy lead-off guy - like the 2005-model Pods. If the 2007-model Pods is as healthy and productive as 2005 Pods, then that'll do me fine.

Other than that, I think that the team just needs to get its hustling attitude back - and only Ozzie can know what went wrong there.

Is BA perhaps not 'a team player', and is this the reason he got sat so much this year?

I'm just glad it's not me runnning the ballclub.
:wink:

Now, clearly, there is also slight room for improvement in the SP & BP.
But that issue's so obvious that I'll restrict my comments on it to this:
Hopefully, 2006 was the aberrant year in the Pitching department, and NOT 2005.

eastchicagosoxfan
09-26-2006, 07:20 PM
I doubt that Dye's trade value will ever be higher. He'll be 33 next year. Hardly old, but he does have a history of injuries, although he's been injury free with the Sox. If the goal is to trade hitting for pitching, Dye could be the odd man out. Konerko just signed a big contract, Thome is old, and Crede might be coming off of back surgery. Pods won't get much, and I don't see the Sox moving AJ. I don't know what Dye could get.

Have A Cigar
09-26-2006, 07:26 PM
I doubt that Dye's trade value will ever be higher. He'll be 33 next year. Hardly old, but he does have a history of injuries, although he's been injury free with the Sox. If the goal is to trade hitting for pitching, Dye could be the odd man out. Konerko just signed a big contract, Thome is old, and Crede might be coming off of back surgery. Pods won't get much, and I don't see the Sox moving AJ. I don't know what Dye could get.

That all makes some good sense but I don't see them making the outfield even more "rookie-ized." Dye is the only real verteran we have locked down out there and we need his clutch hits.


Trade speculation makes me nuts. A lifelong fan and I've never been good at it.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 07:32 PM
I doubt that Dye's trade value will ever be higher. He'll be 33 next year. Hardly old, but he does have a history of injuries, although he's been injury free with the Sox. If the goal is to trade hitting for pitching, Dye could be the odd man out. Konerko just signed a big contract, Thome is old, and Crede might be coming off of back surgery. Pods won't get much, and I don't see the Sox moving AJ. I don't know what Dye could get.

Having Fields at 3B, Sweeney in RF/LF and Anderson in CF definitely makes us more athletic and younger.

I prefer that image for 2008 though, if we have to go there.

Since we aren't getting any high draft picks, the only way to get another "ace" pitcher (a Santana/Liriano/Bonderman/Verlander) would be to trade either Dye, Konerko or Crede.

The big danger is Konerko and Thome and AJ and Iguchi "getting old" simultaneously. We do have to get younger, and usually, teams wait too long to make the moves and end up paying dearly for it. The Patriots seem to be one of the few franchises in sports that can continue to reinvigorate and reinvent their roster with a mixture of youngsters and veterans.

russ99
09-26-2006, 07:33 PM
I doubt that Dye's trade value will ever be higher. He'll be 33 next year. Hardly old, but he does have a history of injuries, although he's been injury free with the Sox. If the goal is to trade hitting for pitching, Dye could be the odd man out. Konerko just signed a big contract, Thome is old, and Crede might be coming off of back surgery. Pods won't get much, and I don't see the Sox moving AJ. I don't know what Dye could get.

Dye's staying - with that insanely cheap option for next season. He might be moved at the deadline if FA is impending, and talks for an extension break down. Kenny might also get a Dye extension this offseason.

Forgive the blasphemy, but Paulie might be movable. Not that I'd trade him, except maybe for Vlad.

IMO, the starting pitching will be fine with a long offseason to recover :( and the Sox biggest needs are a RH setup guy (or 2), SS, LF and/or CF, and don't forget they need a decent backup catcher.

eastchicagosoxfan
09-26-2006, 07:38 PM
That all makes some good sense but I don't see them making the outfield even more "rookie-ized." Dye is the only real verteran we have locked down out there and we need his clutch hits.


Trade speculation makes me nuts. A lifelong fan and I've never been good at it.
I'm not good at trade speculation either. It does open the door, on paper at least, of an outfield of Pods, Anderson, and either Sweeney or Owens. Hardly a group that instills fear. I'm looking at Dye as the guy that will get the most. I don't know how to replace him. Could he be used to grab a team's top pitching prospect? Sign a free agent to replace him? The Sox appear weak on top arms in the minors.

russ99
09-26-2006, 07:43 PM
Another thing, I doubt Jerry's going to raise payroll, so to get the kind of impact player we fans want (Ichiro, Tejada, Soriano, Crawford) we're gonna have to trade some substantial payroll. Crede, Dye, Uribe and Pods are all relatively cheap.

Top 10 2006 Sox Salaries: (from about.com - stats old)

25- Jim Thome: $14,166,667 (Infielder: .292, 18, 44, 0) 14M in 07 (salary deferring cash sent in trade: -6M in 07)
14- Paul Konerko: $12,000,000 (Infielder: .307, 14, 40, 0) 12M in 07
33- Javier Vazquez: $12,000,000 (Pitcher: 4.25, 5-3, 0, 42) 12.5M in 07 (salary deferring cash sent in trade: -3M in 07)
52- Jose Contreras: $9,500,000 (Pitcher: 1.83, 5-0, 0, 28) 9M in 07
34- Freddy Garcia: $9,000,000 (Pitcher: 4.31, 7-2, 0, 35) 10M in 07
56- Mark Buehrle: $8,000,000 (Pitcher: 2.62, 6-2, 0, 27) 9.5M option for 07
20- Jon Garland: $7,000,000 (Pitcher: 6.12, 3-2, 0, 29) 10M in 07
23- Jermaine Dye: $5,000,000 (Outfielder: .283, 12, 34, 3) 6.5M option for 07
12- A. J. Pierzynski: $4,000,000 (Catcher: .336, 2, 13, 0) 5.5M in 07
32- Dustin Hermanson: $3,150,000 (Pitcher: DL since beginning of season) 3.5M team option for 07, surely will be bought out.

This link (http://www.southsidesox.com/special/White-Sox-Payroll-Info) has very accurate salary info.

Seeing the salaries for 2007, that 110 mil payroll is due to go way up (+8.5 mil in the top 10 alone). I'd expect some trades to reduce salary along with filling needs.

Have A Cigar
09-26-2006, 07:48 PM
I'm not good at trade speculation either. It does open the door, on paper at least, of an outfield of Pods, Anderson, and either Sweeney or Owens. Hardly a group that instills fear. I'm looking at Dye as the guy that will get the most. I don't know how to replace him. Could he be used to grab a team's top pitching prospect? Sign a free agent to replace him? The Sox appear weak on top arms in the minors.


I think you can go ahead and erase Easy Step Pods from that defensive lineup. :cool: Hopefully anyway.

thomas35forever
09-26-2006, 11:51 PM
Trade speculation makes me nuts. A lifelong fan and I've never been good at it.
Relax. It's one of the funnest things about being a fan.

caulfield12
09-27-2006, 12:08 AM
Another thing, I doubt Jerry's going to raise payroll, so to get the kind of impact player we fans want (Ichiro, Tejada, Soriano, Crawford) we're gonna have to trade some substantial payroll. Crede, Dye, Uribe and Pods are all relatively cheap.

Top 10 2006 Sox Salaries: (from about.com - stats old)

25- Jim Thome: $14,166,667 (Infielder: .292, 18, 44, 0) 14M in 07 (salary deferring cash sent in trade: -6M in 07)
14- Paul Konerko: $12,000,000 (Infielder: .307, 14, 40, 0) 12M in 07
33- Javier Vazquez: $12,000,000 (Pitcher: 4.25, 5-3, 0, 42) 12.5M in 07 (salary deferring cash sent in trade: -3M in 07)
52- Jose Contreras: $9,500,000 (Pitcher: 1.83, 5-0, 0, 28) 9M in 07
34- Freddy Garcia: $9,000,000 (Pitcher: 4.31, 7-2, 0, 35) 10M in 07
56- Mark Buehrle: $8,000,000 (Pitcher: 2.62, 6-2, 0, 27) 9.5M option for 07
20- Jon Garland: $7,000,000 (Pitcher: 6.12, 3-2, 0, 29) 10M in 07
23- Jermaine Dye: $5,000,000 (Outfielder: .283, 12, 34, 3) 6.5M option for 07
12- A. J. Pierzynski: $4,000,000 (Catcher: .336, 2, 13, 0) 5.5M in 07
32- Dustin Hermanson: $3,150,000 (Pitcher: DL since beginning of season) 3.5M team option for 07, surely will be bought out.

This link (http://www.southsidesox.com/special/White-Sox-Payroll-Info) has very accurate salary info.

Seeing the salaries for 2007, that 110 mil payroll is due to go way up (+8.5 mil in the top 10 alone). I'd expect some trades to reduce salary along with filling needs.

We're getting around $10 million back for Thome and Vazquez.

Thomas and Everett are finally off the books. Hermanson will be gone.
Pods will be gone. Riske will PROBABLY be gone.

ondafarm
09-27-2006, 12:13 AM
With the Sox 3-4-5 hitters you take the fact that they are slwo and live with it. Those guys drive in a lot of runs. Beside they all have full veto rights on trades.

Eventually, the Sox will replace Dye with Sweeney, but certainly not in 2007. Thome will eventually retire but not this off-season.

The Sox one biggest need is a lead-off man. The FA market has a couple of possibilities. They could try to get Owens or Anderson to learn the needed skills in winter ball. They could even move up Iguchi.

I expect the Sox to transition at SS from Uribe to Cintron but keep Uribe as insurance.


I doubt Crede is going anywhere. I don't think Fields is ready to replace him yet.

Garcia or Vazquez will be traded and McCarthy will move into the rotation. Haeger will take McCarthy's long relief role.

Maybe a new back-up catcher.

That's it folks.

caulfield12
09-27-2006, 12:20 AM
With the Sox 3-4-5 hitters you take the fact that they are slwo and live with it. Those guys drive in a lot of runs. Beside they all have full veto rights on trades.

Eventually, the Sox will replace Dye with Sweeney, but certainly not in 2007. Thome will eventually retire but not this off-season.

The Sox one biggest need is a lead-off man. The FA market has a couple of possibilities. They could try to get Owens or Anderson to learn the needed skills in winter ball. They could even move up Iguchi.

I expect the Sox to transition at SS from Uribe to Cintron but keep Uribe as insurance.


I doubt Crede is going anywhere. I don't think Fields is ready to replace him yet.

Garcia or Vazquez will be traded and McCarthy will move into the rotation. Haeger will take McCarthy's long relief role.

Maybe a new back-up catcher.

That's it folks.

If you think Cintron is a starting SS, then Ozuna might as well be a starting LF, or Mackowiak. There's no way we can win anything with Cintron replacing Uribe. Cintron is no "small ball" player by any stretch of the imagination. He swings out of his a-- more than any Sox hitter....sure, some clutch hits this season, but I want nothing of him as a starter. We will miss Uribe (defensively) by Tax Day.

And we wouldn't keep Uribe around to sit on the bench. Just the wrong mix in terms of chemistry IMO.

Qdaddy
09-27-2006, 12:30 AM
I know he's old but what about a 1yr deal for Jim Edmonds with incentives. a nice left handed bat that walks a lot. I know he's not what he used to be but I think he's still pretty good in center.

Just throwing it out there....I know KW likes little project players or finds.

Your thoughts?

Norberto7
09-27-2006, 12:33 AM
I have tired of seeing the phrase "I trust Kenny" or any of its many derivations. I think he has done quite a remarkable job, and I am looking forward to seeing what he does this offseason, but it's not as easy as "I trust Kenny". The Sox did not make the playoffs, and no matter what kind of job he was perceived to have done last offseason, it wasn't good enough. Granted, he made moves that made solid baseball sense then and now, but for whatever reason, they didn't work.

That's why you can't just say, "I trust Kenny." This season more than ever should put a rest to that. He will make the moves he feels are best for the club, and they make look gorgeous at the time, but hey, look at the 2006 Sox: that doesn't guarantee anything.

Same thing goes for the pitching coach. Hearing "We should get X...Coop will straighten him out..." drives me nuts. Sure, it happened with Thornton and Jenks. What about Cotts, Politte, Buehrle, Logan, etc.? Where was Coop's magic then? I'm not saying he is not a good pitching coach, but the blind faith in him to restore everything that is right in the world is amazing sometimes given the amount of mediocrity surrounding him this year.

BadBobbyJenks
09-27-2006, 02:12 AM
I don't think Kenny could have predicted that some of the team was going to under perform. The only thing Kenny should have done was get a back up outfielder. Other then that I think he did what was needed to win, it just did not work out that way.



But several posters around here all knew that politte would suck and cotts would be right behind him.

RedHeadPaleHoser
09-27-2006, 08:26 AM
I think this season is a good thing, overall for the team and the organization.

Kenny, if no one else is never satisfied. I give him alot of credit for second guessing himself with over a week left in the season. I think he, Ozzie and JR will do the right things for next season so this team becomes better overall. I think there needs to be a better balance of "smallball" and longball hitting, and I really feel that once the sting of this season goes away, it will turn to a little anger.

There is truth in anger - and I think Kenny being angry again can mean alot of headaches for the rest of the AL. I truly do believe that.

southside rocks
09-27-2006, 10:17 AM
I'm not good at trade speculation either. It does open the door, on paper at least, of an outfield of Pods, Anderson, and either Sweeney or Owens. Hardly a group that instills fear.

I find it pretty scary. :o:

No teal.

southside rocks
09-27-2006, 10:21 AM
I know he's old but what about a 1yr deal for Jim Edmonds with incentives. a nice left handed bat that walks a lot. I know he's not what he used to be but I think he's still pretty good in center.

Just throwing it out there....I know KW likes little project players or finds.

Your thoughts?

Edmonds took a month off (August 26 to September 25) and I believe his status is still uncertain due to lingering effects from concussions he sustained this year, including one from his crash at the Cell. I'm not sure that anyone, including Edmonds, knows what his future's going to be in baseball. It's pretty sad, actually.

soxtalker
09-27-2006, 11:39 AM
I have tired of seeing the phrase "I trust Kenny" or any of its many derivations. I think he has done quite a remarkable job, and I am looking forward to seeing what he does this offseason, but it's not as easy as "I trust Kenny". The Sox did not make the playoffs, and no matter what kind of job he was perceived to have done last offseason, it wasn't good enough. Granted, he made moves that made solid baseball sense then and now, but for whatever reason, they didn't work.

That's why you can't just say, "I trust Kenny." This season more than ever should put a rest to that. He will make the moves he feels are best for the club, and they make look gorgeous at the time, but hey, look at the 2006 Sox: that doesn't guarantee anything.

Same thing goes for the pitching coach. Hearing "We should get X...Coop will straighten him out..." drives me nuts. Sure, it happened with Thornton and Jenks. What about Cotts, Politte, Buehrle, Logan, etc.? Where was Coop's magic then? I'm not saying he is not a good pitching coach, but the blind faith in him to restore everything that is right in the world is amazing sometimes given the amount of mediocrity surrounding him this year.

Whenever I hear phrases like that, I recall some of the comments on the Florida Marlins message board just after we traded Billy Koch to them. They had similar confidence that their pitching coach would be able to turn Koch around. They had won just before that, and their pitching was outstanding. Of course, their pitching coach got (and probably deserved to some degree) a lot of the credit. But he wasn't able to work his magic on Billy Koch, if I recall correctly. I've been impressed with KW (and that's a turnaround for me from a few years ago) and Coop, but their jobs aren't that simple.

(I don't want to turn this into a Billy Koch thread; it was a frustrating experience here, but we learned earlier this year or last year that he has that strange Morgellons disease.)

Lip Man 1
09-27-2006, 01:00 PM
Bad Bobby:

You may be interesting in reading this story.

You may be even more interested in the quotes attributed to Mark Buehrle.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/73347,CST-SPT-soxdead27.article

Lip

voodoochile
09-27-2006, 01:02 PM
Bad Bobby:

You may be interesting in reading this story.

You may be even more interested in the quotes attributed to Mark Buehrle.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/73347,CST-SPT-soxdead27.article

Lip

Tailgunner joe strikes again...:rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
09-27-2006, 01:29 PM
Voodoo:

I have no love for Joe Cowley...not after he personally attacked me, ripped PHG's wife and then this site. But I'm curious why you feel this is a 'tailgunner Joe,' story?

Lip

BadBobbyJenks
09-27-2006, 01:45 PM
Bad Bobby:

You may be interesting in reading this story.

You may be even more interested in the quotes attributed to Mark Buehrle.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/73347,CST-SPT-soxdead27.article

Lip


''That's what we went on last year -- pitching and defense,'' Sox left-hander Mark Buehrle said. ''But we had a few guys have career years last year, and I don't think anyone could expect that everyone would have the same year as last year.

Thats what the majority of us thought, Im not arguing this in anyway. But there is no way anybody thought Politte would be so bad we would have to cut ties with him, and Cotts would be relegated to mop up situations. As I have said by this same logic we should have brought in a closer because of Bobby's career year....:rolleyes:

Just because we didnt expect career years again doesnt mean we also expected career lows. Its just 2nd guessing to be talking about KW not adressing the pen after we were eliminated.

voodoochile
09-27-2006, 01:47 PM
Voodoo:

I have no love for Joe Cowley...not after he personally attacked me, ripped PHG's wife and then this site. But I'm curious why you feel this is a 'tailgunner Joe,' story?

Lip

Well, if he really knew that all those players had career years last year, why didn't he say so in March?

He's just throwing a bunch of crap that fits the description at us after the fact and acting like he knew it all along. Typical Joe...

Lip Man 1
09-27-2006, 01:54 PM
Bobby:

True points... although I was struck by Mark making this comment in the first place.

If he's been quoted correctly then I find it 'unusual' that a player admits to knowing that some guys had career years, but the General Manager didn't (or he did and as Cowley speculates couldn't do anything about it.)

I hope that Kenny doesn't take a chance again in this area as the Sox head into the 2007 season.

Lip

voodoochile
09-27-2006, 01:59 PM
Bobby:

True points... although I was struck by Mark making this comment in the first place.

If he's been quoted correctly then I find it 'unusual' that a player admits to knowing that some guys had career years, but the General Manager didn't (or he did and as Cowley speculates couldn't do anything about it.)

I hope that Kenny doesn't take a chance again in this area as the Sox head into the 2007 season.

Lip

Lip, I think Joe is speculating on who Mark means. I don't see Mark mentioning those players at all. He could just as easily mean Garcia, Uribe and Pods as well as Contreras.

spiffie
09-27-2006, 02:51 PM
Well, if he really knew that all those players had career years last year, why didn't he say so in March?

He's just throwing a bunch of crap that fits the description at us after the fact and acting like he knew it all along. Typical Joe...
Not to defend Cowley, but back in March anyone who suggested that anyone from the 2005 team might have been at all a fluke tended to be shouted down and ridiculed. Especially when it came to pitchers since there was a prevailing sentiment that Don Cooper was magical and could fix anyone.

Sox-o-matic
09-27-2006, 04:47 PM
Bobby:

True points... although I was struck by Mark making this comment in the first place.

If he's been quoted correctly then I find it 'unusual' that a player admits to knowing that some guys had career years, but the General Manager didn't (or he did and as Cowley speculates couldn't do anything about it.)

I hope that Kenny doesn't take a chance again in this area as the Sox head into the 2007 season.

Lip

I didn't find anything about that article strange or untruthful. I'm sure KW, Ozzie, and everyone on the Sox didn't expect Cotts and Politte to go out there and be as dominant as they were last year, but I also don't think anyone expected to turn into AA pitchers either.

Had Politte and Cotts both been serviceable and got big outs but posted ERA's near 3.50 in 2005, KW would have found real bullpen help. But after Cotts posted an ERA of 1.94 with a 1.11 WHIP and Politte posted an ERA of 2.00 and a WHIP of 0.94, it was clear that KW needed no help.

After 2005, Politte had a career ERA of 4.06 so there's no way anyone could have forseen the 8.70 ERA this year. And Cotts was just coming into his own as a pitcher so there was no way to tell he would have sucked as bad as he did.

Besides, at the time, after setting up 5 all-star calibur starters as the rotation AND adding another up and coming starter to the bullpen, as well as signing a few journeymen (who later got us Riske) and acquiring Thornton, there was no need for anything else. KW I'm sure thought that the few extra million would be better spent on Cintron + Mackowiak so he made those moves instead.

There was nothing wrong with the way KW, Ozzie, and co. approached the 2006 season. All the right players were put in place and everything Ozzie and his staff needed to succeed they were given. IMO, the crappy starting pitching and bullpen took our offense out of the game early and after a while lead to the disappearance of fundamentals altogether.

Flight #24
09-27-2006, 05:25 PM
Bobby:

True points... although I was struck by Mark making this comment in the first place.

If he's been quoted correctly then I find it 'unusual' that a player admits to knowing that some guys had career years, but the General Manager didn't (or he did and as Cowley speculates couldn't do anything about it.)

I hope that Kenny doesn't take a chance again in this area as the Sox head into the 2007 season.

Lip

I think the Sox & KW expected some guys to regress, which is why he added McCarthy, Thornton to the 'pen. Similarly with the rotation - which is hwy he beefed up the O and added Vazquez.

What he didn't forsee was the fact that they'd put up career worst-type of performances, especially from the relievers. There's a huge difference between Politte putting up something like a 4.5 ERA - more in line with his career #s than the 8.7 he actually put up this year. The former is forseeable, the latter is tough to predict.

Similarly for Buehrle - his ERAs have ranged from 3.12 to 4.21. This year - 4.99 (and significantly higher in the 2d half).

It's not that KW didn't think about these thngs and prepare for them - it's that things went a lot worse than you could realistically predict from guys past.

soxinem1
09-27-2006, 06:28 PM
I have tired of seeing the phrase "I trust Kenny" or any of its many derivations. I think he has done quite a remarkable job, and I am looking forward to seeing what he does this offseason, but it's not as easy as "I trust Kenny". The Sox did not make the playoffs, and no matter what kind of job he was perceived to have done last offseason, it wasn't good enough. Granted, he made moves that made solid baseball sense then and now, but for whatever reason, they didn't work.

That's why you can't just say, "I trust Kenny." This season more than ever should put a rest to that. He will make the moves he feels are best for the club, and they make look gorgeous at the time, but hey, look at the 2006 Sox: that doesn't guarantee anything.

Same thing goes for the pitching coach. Hearing "We should get X...Coop will straighten him out..." drives me nuts. Sure, it happened with Thornton and Jenks. What about Cotts, Politte, Buehrle, Logan, etc.? Where was Coop's magic then? I'm not saying he is not a good pitching coach, but the blind faith in him to restore everything that is right in the world is amazing sometimes given the amount of mediocrity surrounding him this year.

I agree to an extent. He has been GM for nearly six years and has built five teams with sluggers that were weak in the rotation, and had several trades, while daring, not yield the desired results. 2005 was the exception.

Not that its his fault entirely, because these players have to produce. But relying upon him to fill voids just because he is 'KW the Savior' is not right. Things have to fall into place too.