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MadetoOrta
09-26-2006, 07:59 AM
In today's Sun-Times, Juan Pierre makes it perfectly clear unless the cubs keep Baker [no chance] he's moving on and would "love to play for Ozzie Guillen." His OBS is weak but he leads the NL in hits and has 56 stolen bases.

Anyone want Juan Pierre in LF or CF for your 2007 Chicago White Sox?

esbrechtel
09-26-2006, 08:00 AM
hes tainted since he played for the cubs i believe thats what was said about the issue earlier :smile:

Rocky Soprano
09-26-2006, 08:01 AM
No, I want Carl Crawford.

Luke
09-26-2006, 08:13 AM
No, his fellow players voted him as having one of the worst outfield arms in baseball.

Jaffar
09-26-2006, 08:18 AM
I would consider him for LF but never for CF. He's an upgrade over Pods but I have a feeling somebody will overpay for him and I'd rather it not be us. Any team will have to overpay for Carl Crawford in a trade as well.

Thome25
09-26-2006, 08:30 AM
NO THANKS to Juan Pierre. In the offseason, I hope the Sox focus their attention to Ryan Freel, Dave Roberts, and Michael Young.

Carl Crawford will be too expensive and TB would be stupid to get rid of him.

Frontman
09-26-2006, 08:34 AM
No, no, a thousand times, no.

Wonder if Ozzie either had a shudder or busted out laughing when he saw that comment.

Front

sox1970
09-26-2006, 08:40 AM
No Juan Pierre. Bad arm. Inconsistent offense.

I don't think the Sox need a speed burner at the top. They need a guy that gets on base, can go 1st to 3rd on a basehit, and gets runners over when the 9-hole guy gets on.

The 2007 White Sox need to upgrade the bullpen first and foremost. I'm hoping the rotation can refocus and bounce back, but they really need to get a couple proven commodities for the bullpen. I can live with McCarthy moving to the rotation, and inserting Charlie Haeger as a long man, with MacDougal, Thornton, and Jenks coming back. But they need to let Cotts and Riske go, and get some guys that can give some innings and get outs. Logan and Tracey aren't ready to be part of a championship team.

jenn2080
09-26-2006, 08:58 AM
No Thanks! He is no better then Pods. He also wears his uniform like he is Manny Ramirez. Apparently they dont make kids sizes in uniforms.

Thome25
09-26-2006, 09:06 AM
No Thanks! He is no better then Pods. He is also wears his uniform like he is Manny Ramirez. Apparently they dont make kids sizes in uniforms.

OMG that is freaking hilarious!!!:D: Thanks for the laugh!!!!

spiffie
09-26-2006, 09:25 AM
We already tried going with a leadoff man who can't get on base more than 1/3 of the time. We just got eliminated from the playoff race. Let's not try that again.

BainesHOF
09-26-2006, 09:26 AM
No Pierre - his arm is weak and so is his on-base percentage for the amount of hits he gets.

Jjav829
09-26-2006, 09:35 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to getting Pierre. He's one of the few quality leadoff hitters that is available.

As for those using his weak arm as a reason not to want Pierre; he'd be in left field. It's not like the league is full of left fielders with cannons.

There are other options I'd like Kenny to explore. I'm not going to lose any sleep if we don't get Pierre, but at the same time, we could do worse.

russ99
09-26-2006, 09:38 AM
No, his fellow players voted him as having one of the worst outfield arms in baseball.

And he's got a prety bad OBP for a leadoff guy. I think Pods' is just as bad.

I'd go with M. Young or Figgins. Freel would be awesome as a Sox, but I can't see the Reds trading him.

Thome25
09-26-2006, 09:38 AM
Miggy Tejada anyone?

I'd keep BA in CF, sign or trade for a new LF that could leadoff, and trade Garcia, Uribe, and Pods for Tejada.

Frontman
09-26-2006, 09:39 AM
Miggy Tejada anyone?

I'd keep BA in CF, sign or trade for a new LF that could leadoff, and trade Garcia, Uribe, and Pods for Tejada.


Now THAT would be a great addition to this team. Very doubtful it would happen, though.

Front

Jerko
09-26-2006, 09:39 AM
Wait, Pierre WANTS Baker to stay???? Do we need a headcase like that on the Sox??????????????

Flight #24
09-26-2006, 09:42 AM
Miggy Tejada anyone?

I'd keep BA in CF, sign or trade for a new LF that could leadoff, and trade Garcia, Uribe, and Pods for Tejada.

IIRC, the O's rejected Ervin Santana & Brandon Wood and change for Miggy. But now they'll trade him for 2 veterans who have played pretty poorly and a starter a year away from FA?

I don't think so. It'll take McCarthy in that deal to get Miggy, the main problem being that you then need to a)find another SP and/or b)find another way to shed some payroll to take on Miggy's $$$.

I suppose they MIGHT take Javy based on his improving throught he season and being under control for 2 years. But I'd guess it would require more like Javy+Fields+Uribe.

russ99
09-26-2006, 09:42 AM
Miggy Tejada anyone?

I'd keep BA in CF, sign or trade for a new LF that could leadoff, and trade Garcia, Uribe, and Pods for Tejada.

I don't think the O's would take that offer, especially if it's true that they turned down Oswalt & Everett for Tejada at the deadline.

My one hope for the offseason is that teams get realistic about potential trades. There's way too many GMs asking for the moon.

soxinem1
09-26-2006, 09:42 AM
If we are going to pay up the wazoo for someone, I'd prefer it be Jimmy Rollins. Crawford will not be available, but if the Phils fall, Rollins may be. The Phils need two starters minimum and I'm sure something can be worked out for Contreras and Uribe.

Plus, Rollins would look better in a Sox uniform than Pierre. He always looks like he's wearing pajamas!

soxchick20
09-26-2006, 09:42 AM
Anyone want Juan Pierre in LF or CF for your 2007 Chicago White Sox?

No thank you!

cheeses_h_rice
09-26-2006, 09:43 AM
In today's Sun-Times, Juan Pierre makes it perfectly clear unless the cubs keep Baker [no chance] he's moving on and would "love to play for Ozzie Guillen." His OBS is weak but he leads the NL in hits and has 56 stolen bases.

Anyone want Juan Pierre in LF or CF for your 2007 Chicago White Sox?

Until this post, I had absolutely no freaking idea that Juan Pierre was anywhere in the top 300 in the NL for hits.

:?:

MrX
09-26-2006, 10:14 AM
No thanks, his second half numbers are going to make someone overpay for him.

Chicken Dinner
09-26-2006, 10:25 AM
Juan's don't hit that well. :smile:

ChiSoxlukes
09-26-2006, 10:28 AM
No no no. Just give me Josh Fields in left, Carl Crawford in Center, and Michael Young at SS.

credefan24
09-26-2006, 10:28 AM
I might get flamed for this, but is it possible that Pods just had a down year, and could rebound in '07? Or is most of the discussion about trading him due to his noodle arm and twinkletoes?

SpartanSoxFan
09-26-2006, 10:34 AM
Tejada/Crawford or Bust...

Lock it.

Thome25
09-26-2006, 10:36 AM
No no no. Just give me Josh Fields in left, Carl Crawford in Center, and Michael Young at SS.

Me Likey. Crawford's pricetag may be through the roof though. I just don't see us acquiring him.

Hokiesox
09-26-2006, 10:36 AM
I don't think the O's would take that offer, especially if it's true that they turned down Oswalt & Everett for Tejada at the deadline.

My one hope for the offseason is that teams get realistic about potential trades. There's way too many GMs asking for the moon.

I dunno. listening to the sports talk in baltimore, it seems they want pitching. Javy of Fredgar would seem to me to be up their alley. It might just work.

Hangar18
09-26-2006, 10:41 AM
I might get flamed for this, but is it possible that Pods just had a down year, and could rebound in '07? Or is most of the discussion about trading him due to his noodle arm and twinkletoes?


Funny you should mention that. I was chatting with a couple guys about my "conspiracy" theory regarding Pods, and the notion was, if the SOX can take a hard look at that and straighten out whatever is ailing him, if thats an option, they might be wise just to keep him, because he is still CHEAP, and lefthanded.

southside rocks
09-26-2006, 10:47 AM
I might get flamed for this, but is it possible that Pods just had a down year, and could rebound in '07? Or is most of the discussion about trading him due to his noodle arm and twinkletoes?

This was discussed recently on a Sox post-game show on CSN. Bill Melton pointed out that Pods has really had one good half, in the two years he's been with the Sox. Melton said that Pods was unimpressive in the first half of '05, on fire in the second half of '05, and back to underwhelming for all of this year.

So would it be a mistake to think that the Scott Podsednik of the second half of 2005 is the real Scott Podsednik?

His career stats say yes, it would be. And even at $2.1 million, he's not a bargain if he's going to repeat this year's performance.

Gavin
09-26-2006, 10:51 AM
Resign Pods for about $1.5mil or grab Pierre. Tejada or Crawford are pipe dreams... would you like Kenny to give them up if he had them?

munchman33
09-26-2006, 10:52 AM
Pierre is not as bad a player as most make him out to be. He gets a ton of hits. He has excellent range in center, which is important. He has speed, and he actually can use it on the basepaths. He just doesn't have a powerful arm. Oh well, lots of CFers don't.

Not to mention, the guy works harder than any other player in baseball, and keeps himself in great shape. I think he would be a wonderful influence for our clubhouse.

MVP
09-26-2006, 10:55 AM
In today's Sun-Times, Juan Pierre makes it perfectly clear unless the cubs keep Baker [no chance] he's moving on and would "love to play for Ozzie Guillen." His OBS is weak but he leads the NL in hits and has 56 stolen bases.

Anyone want Juan Pierre in LF or CF for your 2007 Chicago White Sox?


I'd take him in LF. Pierre wouldn't be at the top of my list of players to get this off-season but he is an upgrade to Pods at this point because unlike Pods, he can still run and we need to re-establish a running game.

Ol' No. 2
09-26-2006, 10:55 AM
This was discussed recently on a Sox post-game show on CSN. Bill Melton pointed out that Pods has really had one good half, in the two years he's been with the Sox. Melton said that Pods was unimpressive in the first half of '05, on fire in the second half of '05, and back to underwhelming for all of this year.

So would it be a mistake to think that the Scott Podsednik of the second half of 2005 is the real Scott Podsednik?

His career stats say yes, it would be. And even at $2.1 million, he's not a bargain if he's going to repeat this year's performance.Podsednik had a .348 OBP on Aug 1. He more or less tanked the last two months (along with everybody else), so I wouldn't exactly say he has been underwhelming all year. While .348 isn't exactly stellar, I'd put it on the low end of the acceptable range, given that there aren't a lot of better options. If they can upgrade, that would be great. I just don't think it's going to be that easy. Everybody is looking for a good leadoff hitter.

But Juan Pierre? He needs a relay to get the ball to second base. No thanks.

russ99
09-26-2006, 10:56 AM
This was discussed recently on a Sox post-game show on CSN. Bill Melton pointed out that Pods has really had one good half, in the two years he's been with the Sox. Melton said that Pods was unimpressive in the first half of '05, on fire in the second half of '05, and back to underwhelming for all of this year.

So would it be a mistake to think that the Scott Podsednik of the second half of 2005 is the real Scott Podsednik?

His career stats say yes, it would be. And even at $2.1 million, he's not a bargain if he's going to repeat this year's performance.

Pods was on fire the FIRST half of 05, when he was healthy. He could barely run the second half of 05. A case can be made that he flopped the second half of this season while reasonably healthy, but he did have 2 hernia surgeries last offseason and missed all of spring training. Pods biggest problem is as Sox management said this season, any little knock is going to take him off his game.

I'm happy with Ozzie's comments in yesterday's papers about him wanting to keep Pods, but as he said "It's not in my hands."

The thing that's most interesting to me is that most Sox fans and (especially) the press are so ready to dump him, but the one guy we haven't heard from on the subject is Kenny, and his opinion is the one that matters.

My best guess is that he'll try to improve the position, but if it doesn't work out and/or other GMs and FAs are asking for the farm, he'd probably be OK with bringing Pods back next season, because as others have said, most teams are looking for a leadoff guy.

oeo
09-26-2006, 10:57 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to getting Pierre. He's one of the few quality leadoff hitters that is available.

As for those using his weak arm as a reason not to want Pierre; he'd be in left field. It's not like the league is full of left fielders with cannons.

There are other options I'd like Kenny to explore. I'm not going to lose any sleep if we don't get Pierre, but at the same time, we could do worse.

I'm wondering why so many people are opposed to the idea. A weak arm is not very good reasoning...

Is it because he played for the Cubs this year? Who cares?

Many, MANY people wanted Kenny to pick-up Pierre in last year's offseason. And outside of a slow start, Pierre had a pretty solid season for a ****ty ballclub.

Someone before said they do not want a 'speed burner'. I do. One of the reasons we scored so many runs in the first inning in 2005 was just because of Podsednik's presence on the basepaths. A single/walk, turned to a triple (or he stole second and Iguchi got him over/got him in). The pitchers were so worried about Pods stealing, that they would lay meatballs for the Iguchi, Everett, Paulie, etc.

Just having a guy like Pierre on the basepaths can score early runs and give you the early momentum that the Sox lacked this year. Pods lost a step, his presence on the basepaths no longer means very much.

spiffie
09-26-2006, 11:01 AM
Podsednik had a .348 OBP on Aug 1. He more or less tanked the last two months (along with everybody else), so I wouldn't exactly say he has been underwhelming all year. While .348 isn't exactly stellar, I'd put it on the low end of the acceptable range, given that there aren't a lot of better options. If they can upgrade, that would be great. I just don't think it's going to be that easy. Everybody is looking for a good leadoff hitter.

But Juan Pierre? He needs a relay to get the ball to second base. No thanks.
Pods had one awesome month which kept his numbers afloat. A .333 OBP is pretty much the bottom 1/3 of leadoff guys in baseball. Pods by month:

April - 233/281/311
May - 318/443/494
June - 245/318/362
July - 287/330/394
August - 217/284/250
Sept. - 268/317/304

In only one out of 6 months was Pods able to get on base more than 1/3 of the time. That is absolutely unacceptable.

spiffie
09-26-2006, 11:06 AM
I'm wondering why so many people are opposed to the idea. A weak arm is not very good reasoning...

Is it because he played for the Cubs this year? Who cares?

Many, MANY people wanted Kenny to pick-up Pierre in last year's offseason. And outside of a slow start, Pierre had a pretty solid season for a ****ty ballclub.

Someone before said they do not want a 'speed burner'. I do. One of the reasons we scored so many runs in the first inning in 2005 was just because of Podsednik's presence on the basepaths. A single/walk, turned to a triple (or he stole second and Iguchi got him over/got him in). The pitchers were so worried about Pods stealing, that they would lay meatballs for the Iguchi, Everett, Paulie, etc.

What people forget is Pods was effective because he was on base a lot the first half of 2005. His OBP before the all-star break in 2005 was a robust .369. Speed is fine, I'd love a guy who can get on base a lot and then turn it on. Hence the willingness to give up a LOT for someone like Ichiro or Crawford. But Pierre has not shown in the last 2 years an ability to get on base nearly often enough to make real use of his speed. I, and no one else is actively opposed to speedy guys. But when someone has only speed to offer then they are not someone who you want. Now if someone could magically give us the Juan Pierre of 2004, the guy who had a 326/374/407 line with 45SB, then I would be all over that like a dog on a bone. But we'd be paying for the 2007 Juan Pierre, with a 291/330/390 line. In other words, a guy who somehow got on base even less often than Podsednik.

Ol' No. 2
09-26-2006, 11:07 AM
Pods had one awesome month which kept his numbers afloat. A .333 OBP is pretty much the bottom 1/3 of leadoff guys in baseball. Pods by month:

April - 233/281/311
May - 318/443/494
June - 245/318/362
July - 287/330/394
August - 217/284/250
Sept. - 268/317/304

In only one out of 6 months was Pods able to get on base more than 1/3 of the time. That is absolutely unacceptable.OTOH, he scored slightly more runs this year than last, and that's really the name of the game - scoring runs. Certainly that's due partly to better production from Thome vs. Everett, but regardless, I don't think it's accurate to say the Sox offense was hamstrung by his decline in OBP.

Again, if you can upgrade, you do it. I just don't think it's going to be that easy and I don't see Pierre as an upgrade.

Mohoney
09-26-2006, 11:07 AM
There is one guy in the NL Central that I think would fit in nicely here, and his name is David Eckstein. He would nicely offset some of our high K total batting 9th in our order. It's not going to happen, though.

As for Pierre, I would rather see Sweeney in LF than Pierre next season. I like Pierre, and I think that he will do well leading off on another team next season, but I also think that he will end up being overpaid for what he brings.

I just wish that there was a SS out there that could lead off. Then, we could go with Anderson #8 and Sweeney #9.

Of course, this is all based on my assumption that Podsednik and Uribe will be gone, which is nothing more than a hunch on my part.

MrX
09-26-2006, 11:07 AM
Pods had one awesome month which kept his numbers afloat. A .333 OBP is pretty much the bottom 1/3 of leadoff guys in baseball.
Pierre's is .330 right now

russ99
09-26-2006, 11:09 AM
There is one guy in the NL Central that I think would fit in nicely here, and his name is David Eckstein. He would nicely offset some of our high K total batting 9th in our order. It's not going to happen, though.

As for Pierre, I would rather see Sweeney in LF than Pierre next season. I like Pierre, and I think that he will do well leading off on another team next season, but I also think that he will end up being overpaid for what he brings.

I just wish that there was a SS out there that could lead off. Then, we could go with Anderson #8 and Sweeney #9.

Of course, this is all based on my assumption that Podsednik and Uribe will be gone, which is nothing more than a hunch on my part.

Hmmm... Eckstein & a reliever not named Isringhausen for (Mr. Cardinals) Buehrle???

spiffie
09-26-2006, 11:16 AM
OTOH, he scored slightly more runs this year than last, and that's really the name of the game - scoring runs. Certainly that's due partly to better production from Thome vs. Everett, but regardless, I don't think it's accurate to say the Sox offense was hamstrung by his decline in OBP.
You're damn right scoring runs is the key. And considering the ridiculous amount of HR's that were being hit behind him, if Pods were on base even at a .355 or so clip that would have meant a lot of those lamented solo HR's would have become 2 run shots.

Again, if you can upgrade, you do it. I just don't think it's going to be that easy and I don't see Pierre as an upgrade.
Among players with 350 or more plate appearance Pods ranks 174/247. Of course, it could be worse. Juan Uribe ranks DEAD FREAKING LAST with a .258. Hell, one of the big problems for the team was that Pods still was better at that than 3 of our regulars (Crede, Uribe, Anderson). But when you're down there, it doesn't take much to upgrade.

That said, Juan Pierre is not that upgrade. On this, we totally agree.

oeo
09-26-2006, 11:16 AM
Hmmm... Eckstein & a reliever not named Isringhausen for (Mr. Cardinals) Buehrle???

I guarantee that ends up as an absolute steal for the Cards. No thank you.

MB >>>> Eckstein and a reliever

I can't believe people want Buehrle out of here...

spiffie
09-26-2006, 11:17 AM
Pierre's is .330 right now
Yup. Hence my saying I would not want Juan Pierre either.

EMachine10
09-26-2006, 11:22 AM
tb will ask for the moon for crawford, and i don't see us giving that much up...rather see someone else than pierre, but i'd welcome him in, see if he can do what he did in fla

vjb77
09-26-2006, 11:30 AM
This was discussed recently on a Sox post-game show on CSN. Bill Melton pointed out that Pods has really had one good half, in the two years he's been with the Sox. Melton said that Pods was unimpressive in the first half of '05, on fire in the second half of '05, and back to underwhelming for all of this year.

So would it be a mistake to think that the Scott Podsednik of the second half of 2005 is the real Scott Podsednik?

His career stats say yes, it would be. And even at $2.1 million, he's not a bargain if he's going to repeat this year's performance.

...i've heard some rumblings that during the game he is unfocused in the dugout while the sox are batting...he's kicking back on the bench while the rest of the hitters are checking out the pitching...

southside rocks
09-26-2006, 11:31 AM
Pods was on fire the FIRST half of 05, when he was healthy. He could barely run the second half of 05.

Oops-- sorry, I had it backwards. Thanks for the correction.

Flight #24
09-26-2006, 11:42 AM
Assuming that the cost for an Ichiro/Tejada/Young is prohibitive (i.e. McCarthy+Fields-esque), I don't think it's that complicated:

1) Go get an SS who can put up a .350+OBP with solid D. Have them lead off. Eckstein, Vizquel fit the bill as guys that shouldn't come too expensively. Or possibly, trade for Felipe Lopez (although I don't know what his D is like) or sign Julio Lugo. Another potential option is Mark DeRosa, but again - I'm not sure if his D is good enough to make him a realistic option for this team.

2) Plug in Josh Fields in LF, assuming he plays the position reasonably in winter ball

3) Mandate that BA focus on fundamentals in winter ball

4) Sign a Dave Roberts type of player to be the 4th OF or CF if BA struggles

5) Go get a couple of solid relievers

If the Sox get "2d half BA" with improved bunting ability at the bottom of the order, and the equivalent of a 2d Iguchi at the top of the order, they can most likely both upgrade 3 offensive slots without a significant defensive downgrade (SS, LF, CF) and improve their "smallball" ability (i.e. better OBP and execution at the 9(BA)-1(SS)-2(Iguchi).

That should be plenty to make things more consistent, and the improved 'pen will be the other huge boost. Then you let the 6 starters battle it out in ST and the top 5 stick with the 6th either shifting to the 'pen (whoever it is) or getting dealt based on whatever needs emerge.

ajismyhero
09-26-2006, 11:43 AM
No Thanks! He is no better then Pods. He also wears his uniform like he is Manny Ramirez. Apparently they dont make kids sizes in uniforms.

Yes they do!! Ichiro has one!!

southside rocks
09-26-2006, 11:44 AM
Yes they do!! Ichiro has one!!

Just seeing Ichiro climb the outfield wall twice on Sunday was priceless. That's an athlete! :worship:

ajismyhero
09-26-2006, 11:44 AM
Pierre is not as bad a player as most make him out to be. He gets a ton of hits. He has excellent range in center, which is important. He has speed, and he actually can use it on the basepaths. He just doesn't have a powerful arm. Oh well, lots of CFers don't.

Not to mention, the guy works harder than any other player in baseball, and keeps himself in great shape. I think he would be a wonderful influence for our clubhouse.

Don't forget that it's statistically proven that players have their career years after leaving the Cubs - look at Maddux after the trade deadline with the Dodgers, or Corey Patterson this season....

russ99
09-26-2006, 11:58 AM
I guarantee that ends up as an absolute steal for the Cards. No thank you.

MB >>>> Eckstein and a reliever

I can't believe people want Buehrle out of here...

Oh, I don't want Buehrle out of here, just thinking that he's always wanted to play there and a starter is probably the Cards biggest need. Also, the Sox are likely to deal a pitcher in the offseason to shore up weaknesses. On second thought, you're right about Eckstein and a reliever being too little of a return.

If the Cards had any other decent hitters outside of Pujols and Rolen (both unacquirable) I'd add them to a potential deal too. Do the Cards have any great pitching prospects?

Ichiro would be completely awesome, but I can't see that happening. If Kenny could pull that off, he'd change to a godlike standing in my eyes. :tongue:

JB98
09-26-2006, 12:03 PM
In today's Sun-Times, Juan Pierre makes it perfectly clear unless the cubs keep Baker [no chance] he's moving on and would "love to play for Ozzie Guillen." His OBS is weak but he leads the NL in hits and has 56 stolen bases.

Anyone want Juan Pierre in LF or CF for your 2007 Chicago White Sox?

Not really. We had this conversation on WSI last year, and I'm on record as not being a Pierre fan. I think there are other avenues for KW to explore as far as upgrading the leadoff spot. I hate to say it, but I think Pierre would be a slight upgrade over Pods. That should be taken as an indictment of Pods more than a compliment to Pierre.

russ99
09-26-2006, 12:06 PM
How is it even possible that Pierre leads the NL in hits and yet has a bad OBP?? Impatient at the plate? Pierre would be adequate (not an upgrade defensively) in left, but no way does he play center for the Sox.

Ol' No. 2
09-26-2006, 12:07 PM
You're damn right scoring runs is the key. And considering the ridiculous amount of HR's that were being hit behind him, if Pods were on base even at a .355 or so clip that would have meant a lot of those lamented solo HR's would have become 2 run shots.


Among players with 350 or more plate appearance Pods ranks 174/247. Of course, it could be worse. Juan Uribe ranks DEAD FREAKING LAST with a .258. Hell, one of the big problems for the team was that Pods still was better at that than 3 of our regulars (Crede, Uribe, Anderson). But when you're down there, it doesn't take much to upgrade.

That said, Juan Pierre is not that upgrade. On this, we totally agree.Where Pods ranks is beside the point if the guys ahead of him are not available. A lot of the players with marginally better OBP don't steal at all. Find someone you can reasonably get with a significantly better OBP and who can even match Pods' 40 SB...not so easy.

spiffie
09-26-2006, 12:14 PM
Where Pods ranks is beside the point if the guys ahead of him are not available. A lot of the players with marginally better OBP don't steal at all. Find someone you can reasonably get with a significantly better OBP and who can even match Pods' 40 SB...not so easy.
Well, we've had this argument before, and it's not worth rehashing. I'll take a significantly better OBP even if it comes at the expense of a bunch of stolen bases. You disagree. Let's just hope the answer comes in the form of Ichiro and we'll all be happy.

Ol' No. 2
09-26-2006, 12:26 PM
Well, we've had this argument before, and it's not worth rehashing. I'll take a significantly better OBP even if it comes at the expense of a bunch of stolen bases. You disagree. Let's just hope the answer comes in the form of Ichiro and we'll all be happy.Obviously, it's a tradeoff. Would you take 30 fewer SB for a 10 pt increase in OBP? Probably not. OTOH, a 30 pt increase in OBP for 10 fewer SB is a great deal - if you can find one. Both qualities are important. I'm equally uninterested in a high-OBP, no speed guy OR a speedy guy who can't get on base.

Gavin
09-26-2006, 12:29 PM
I guarantee that ends up as an absolute steal for the Cards. No thank you.

MB >>>> Eckstein and a reliever

I can't believe people want Buehrle out of here...

Buehrle has been so bad this year that it makes a lot of people wonder if he's lost it. Of course, it's a gamble either way, but as a good GM you try to minimize risks.

Flight #24
09-26-2006, 12:29 PM
Obviously, it's a tradeoff. Would you take 30 fewer SB for a 10 pt increase in OBP? Probably not. OTOH, a 30 pt increase in OBP for 10 fewer SB is a great deal - if you can find one. Both qualities are important. I'm equally uninterested in a high-OBP, no speed guy OR a speedy guy who can't get on base.

The real question is what the total impact on the lineup is. So, for example: if you get your "high OBP, no speed" guy at SS, enabling you to plug in a "not as fast, but faster than Uribe" guy in LF, you could be net positive.

That IMO is one of the Sox opportunities: Take a guy who might not be significantly better than Pods but who plays SS and use him to replace Uribe, enabling you to replace Pods with a more prototypical LF (Hello Josh Fields and his 20-20 potential).

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 12:33 PM
Obviously, it's a tradeoff. Would you take 30 fewer SB for a 10 pt increase in OBP? Probably not. OTOH, a 30 pt increase in OBP for 10 fewer SB is a great deal - if you can find one. Both qualities are important. I'm equally uninterested in a high-OBP, no speed guy OR a speedy guy who can't get on base.


There goes Frank Catalanotto.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 12:36 PM
The real question is what the total impact on the lineup is. So, for example: if you get your "high OBP, no speed" guy at SS, enabling you to plug in a "not as fast, but faster than Uribe" guy in LF, you could be net positive.

That IMO is one of the Sox opportunities: Take a guy who might not be significantly better than Pods but who plays SS and use him to replace Uribe, enabling you to replace Pods with a more prototypical LF (Hello Josh Fields and his 20-20 potential).

I'm all for Rollins, but he would be expensive TOO, and his OBP isn't great for a leadoff hitter.

Vizquez, Lugo....maybe, but risks.
Eckstein and Lopez...I think we'd be missing Uribe defensively (I can see all the complaints when bouncers in the 3B/SS hole routinely become singles) more than we realize.

It takes another player in the same position for us to realize how good that player was...hopefully we don't find this out too soon with Fields at 3B.

I'm not too excited about Anderson and Fields/Sweeney being in the same line-up. I'd prefer to get a veteran that would provide an alternative if one of them went south (but better than Ozuna/Mack, and able to play both CF or LF)...maybe Dave Roberts.

soxfan13
09-26-2006, 12:47 PM
Don't forget that it's statistically proven that players have their career years after leaving the Cubs - look at Maddux after the trade deadline with the Dodgers, or Corey Patterson this season....

Yeah because Maddux is on track for a career year with the Dodgers. Guess he did nothing in Atlanta:cool:

jenn2080
09-26-2006, 12:51 PM
Come on lets be for real. Lets just bring Rowand back. :rolleyes:

palehozenychicty
09-26-2006, 12:52 PM
Come on lets be for real. Lets just bring Rowand back. :rolleyes:

Oh you know that the mediots will turn this on full blast when the playoffs are done and Winter Meetings begin.

soxinem1
09-26-2006, 01:11 PM
I'm wondering why so many people are opposed to the idea. A weak arm is not very good reasoning...

Is it because he played for the Cubs this year? Who cares?

Many, MANY people wanted Kenny to pick-up Pierre in last year's offseason. And outside of a slow start, Pierre had a pretty solid season for a ****ty ballclub.

Someone before said they do not want a 'speed burner'. I do. One of the reasons we scored so many runs in the first inning in 2005 was just because of Podsednik's presence on the basepaths. A single/walk, turned to a triple (or he stole second and Iguchi got him over/got him in). The pitchers were so worried about Pods stealing, that they would lay meatballs for the Iguchi, Everett, Paulie, etc.

Just having a guy like Pierre on the basepaths can score early runs and give you the early momentum that the Sox lacked this year. Pods lost a step, his presence on the basepaths no longer means very much.

Pods had about one good month this year, true, but Pierre didn't do ANYTHING until the cubs were already in the toilet. Early in the year when they were starving for runs, he swung like there was no tomorrow. The only rally he started was the rally to bring Felix Pie up from AAA.

Additionally, Pierre is a low percentage base-stealer, meaning he gets caught a lot, as Pods has since mid last year. For the $7 million + some sucker team is going to give him..... nah, I don't think so. The only real strength he has over Pods is making more contact.

My idea last year was getting Corey Patterson. Sure, he couldn't be a lead-off guy, but he sure would bring a nice dimension to the lower part of the order, which really killed us all year. That idea was smashed on this board because he's an ex-cub.

The White Sox need to get off to a good start next season, and if they replace Podsednik, it has to be for someone really, really up there, not a clone, or even a step below him.

That will be just making a change to make a change.

Mickster
09-26-2006, 01:24 PM
Ozzie loves Pierre and worked with him when he was with the Marlins. This move would not surprise me one bit. In fact, part of me feels like it will be a done deal this off season. I called this months back.

Ol' No. 2
09-26-2006, 02:44 PM
The real question is what the total impact on the lineup is. So, for example: if you get your "high OBP, no speed" guy at SS, enabling you to plug in a "not as fast, but faster than Uribe" guy in LF, you could be net positive.

That IMO is one of the Sox opportunities: Take a guy who might not be significantly better than Pods but who plays SS and use him to replace Uribe, enabling you to replace Pods with a more prototypical LF (Hello Josh Fields and his 20-20 potential).The context of the previous discussion was for leadoff hitters. But if you find a "high OBP, no speed" SS and plug Fields into LF, who leads off? I don't see anyone who can fill the bill. It's not just about being net positive, but having all the spots in your lineup filled. You need both speed AND OBP at the top of the order.

Furthermore, given Anderson's struggles this year, you can't realistically know what to expect from him next year. If you put a rookie in LF (rookies are always question marks) can you afford TWO question marks in the OF? Supppose BOTH of them hit .230 next year? IMO, if you're going to keep Anderson in CF next year you need something more certain in LF.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 02:48 PM
The context of the previous discussion was for leadoff hitters. But if you find a "high OBP, no speed" SS and plug Fields into LF, who leads off? I don't see anyone who can fill the bill. It's not just about being net positive, but having all the spots in your lineup filled. You need both speed AND OBP at the top of the order.

Furthermore, given Anderson's struggles this year, you can't realistically know what to expect from him next year. If you put a rookie in LF (rookies are always question marks) can you afford TWO question marks in the OF? Supppose BOTH of them hit .230 next year? IMO, if you're going to keep Anderson in CF next year you need something more certain in LF.

I also think it would be a stretch to expect Fields to get more than 8-10 stolen bases at the MLB level. Maybe 12, 13...but he's not a legitimate speed threat in the way that Chris Young MIGHT evolve.

HotelWhiteSox
09-26-2006, 03:07 PM
Yes to Pierre in left (with BA staying in right). Even if he hits lefty, he has a respectable avg against them (much better than Pods)

Of course everyone wants Crawford, lets be realistic, and no they won't take the crap that you don't want (in other words, no more 'Cotts, Uribe, and Pods for Crawford' posts)

soxinem1
09-26-2006, 03:16 PM
Yes to Pierre in left (with BA staying in right). Even if he hits lefty, he has a respectable avg against them (much better than Pods)

Of course everyone wants Crawford, lets be realistic, and no they won't take the crap that you don't want (in other words, no more 'Cotts, Uribe, and Pods for Crawford' posts)

No to Pierre, but hey, I agree 1000% about the Crawford for a bag of balls trades. Only the Pirates make those trades. And wishful cub fans think they can be done regularly.

Everybody, stop the Crawford talk, it isn't happening.

Honestly, I'd rather have Coco Crisp, and he will be available for a reasonable amount.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 03:18 PM
No to Pierre, but hey, I agree 1000% about the Crawford for a bag of balls trades. Only the Pirates make those trades. And wishful cub fans think they can be done regularly.

Everybody, stop the Crawford talk, it isn't happening.

Honestly, I'd rather have Coco Crisp, and he will be available for a reasonable amount.

Okay, Jason Bay for Pods/Uribe/Cotts.

Flight #24
09-26-2006, 03:29 PM
The context of the previous discussion was for leadoff hitters. But if you find a "high OBP, no speed" SS and plug Fields into LF, who leads off? I don't see anyone who can fill the bill. It's not just about being net positive, but having all the spots in your lineup filled. You need both speed AND OBP at the top of the order.

Furthermore, given Anderson's struggles this year, you can't realistically know what to expect from him next year. If you put a rookie in LF (rookies are always question marks) can you afford TWO question marks in the OF? Supppose BOTH of them hit .230 next year? IMO, if you're going to keep Anderson in CF next year you need something more certain in LF.

I know Pods stole 40 this year, but his poor OBP combined with relatively poor stealing ability (since about midseason-05) and non-existent fundamentals make him a liability on offense. A guy like Omar Vizquel or Julio Lugo, who won't steal bases but can go 1st to 3d pretty well and will almost certainly get on base as well or likely better than Pods can lead off and have more of a positive impact on the offense. And do it at SS, leaving more options for LF, and easier position to fill.

As for Anderson, I don't think it's anywhere near as uncertain as you do. He started out pretty slow, but improved significantly over the season until he started playing sporadically and getting yanked around by Ozzie. I agree that some of that could be because he wasn't facing the toughest righthanders, but it's much more likely based on his play this year that he bats in the .270s than .230 again. His history suggests that.

I'd agree that Fields is a bit of a risk. But you need to take a risk like that at some point. Having Mack, who can play a decent LF and adding a guy like Roberts, who can play the OF would be ideal. If both BA & Fields flop, you plug in Mack & Roberts. In the more likely event that Fields struggles, you have options to platoon him.

spiffie
09-26-2006, 03:30 PM
The context of the previous discussion was for leadoff hitters. But if you find a "high OBP, no speed" SS and plug Fields into LF, who leads off? I don't see anyone who can fill the bill. It's not just about being net positive, but having all the spots in your lineup filled. You need both speed AND OBP at the top of the order.
Interesting stat...of the four teams going to the postseason in the AL this year, the SB stats of their leadoff hitters:
Detroit - 8 SB
Minnesota - 25 SB
Oakland - 10 SB
New york - 25 SB

Honestly, if you gave Iguchi the green light as a leadoff hitter I don't see any reason he couldn't hit those numbers.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 03:35 PM
Interesting stat...of the four teams going to the postseason in the AL this year, the SB stats of their leadoff hitters:
Detroit - 8 SB
Minnesota - 25 SB
Oakland - 10 SB
New york - 25 SB

Honestly, if you gave Iguchi the green light as a leadoff hitter I don't see any reason he couldn't hit those numbers.


You mean 8 or 10?

If we traded our entire pitching staffs with the first three teams, we'd be in the playoffs too with Ozuna as the leadoff hitter.

If we traded offenses with New York, we would probably be in the playoffs...not 100% sure, but probably.

spiffie
09-26-2006, 03:38 PM
You mean 8 or 10?

If we traded our entire pitching staffs with the first three teams, we'd be in the playoffs too with Ozuna as the leadoff hitter.

If we traded offenses with New York, we would probably be in the playoffs...not 100% sure, but probably.
Iguchi stole 15 in 2005. If given the leadoff spot, and a much less situation based green light, he could produce 25.

Ol' No. 2
09-26-2006, 04:02 PM
Interesting stat...of the four teams going to the postseason in the AL this year, the SB stats of their leadoff hitters:
Detroit - 8 SB
Minnesota - 25 SB
Oakland - 10 SB
New york - 25 SB

Honestly, if you gave Iguchi the green light as a leadoff hitter I don't see any reason he couldn't hit those numbers.Half the AL playoff teams last year had below-average pitching staffs. Is that a recommendation?

soxinem1
09-26-2006, 04:08 PM
Okay, Jason Bay for Pods/Uribe/Cotts.


OW, my eyes!!

Honestly, with some of the boneheaded trades PIT has made, don't be suprised if this one does not go!!

But only if they throw Jack Wilson in too!

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 04:12 PM
Half the AL playoff teams last year had below-average pitching staffs. Is that a recommendation?

And they were wiped out by teams with the better staffs.

With the exception of the Twins beating Oakland and the Red Sox/Yankee offenses/payrolls overwhelming opponents, the better pitching team almost ALWAYS wins these match-ups in the playoffs, at least going to back to 2000.

DickAllen72
09-26-2006, 04:19 PM
I wouldn't be opposed to getting Pierre. He's one of the few quality leadoff hitters that is available.

As for those using his weak arm as a reason not to want Pierre; he'd be in left field. It's not like the league is full of left fielders with cannons.

There are other options I'd like Kenny to explore. I'm not going to lose any sleep if we don't get Pierre, but at the same time, we could do worse.
That sums up how I feel about it.

southside rocks
09-26-2006, 04:23 PM
I have no problem with Juan Pierre in LF, depending on what he costs ... and he has to promise not to marry a Playboy bunny and then become completely useless to the team, of course.

JorgeFabregas
09-26-2006, 04:32 PM
Who's going to have the higher OBP next year, Juan Pierre of Josh Fields (if he plays in the bigs somewhere)?

DickAllen72
09-26-2006, 04:35 PM
Who's going to have the higher OBP next year, Juan Pierre of Josh Fields (if he plays in the bigs somewhere)?
I give up. Who?

Ol' No. 2
09-26-2006, 04:39 PM
I give up. Who?No. Who's on first.

JorgeFabregas
09-26-2006, 04:43 PM
I don't know. I'm interested in hearing people's guesses. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on Fields (.375 OBP at Charlotte).

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 05:31 PM
I don't know. I'm interested in hearing people's guesses. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on Fields (.375 OBP at Charlotte).


I once hit .400 for six weeks in Charlotte.

I could do better than either one...

Who am I?

They call me Mr. Harris (Willie)

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 05:31 PM
Iguchi stole 15 in 2005. If given the leadoff spot, and a much less situation based green light, he could produce 25.


Iguch is really slowing down by the year...I don't this his success ratio getting 20 would be as high as Pods' this season.

doctorlecter
09-26-2006, 05:50 PM
I want this guy:


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/sports/ichiro/2003/index.jpg

Have him in right and lead off with Dye moving to left.

Hitmen77
09-26-2006, 07:57 PM
Yes to Pierre in left (with BA staying in right). Even if he hits lefty, he has a respectable avg against them (much better than Pods)

So, we should move Dye to center next year? :tongue:

chisoxmike
09-26-2006, 08:05 PM
I want this guy:


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/sports/ichiro/2003/index.jpg

Have him in right and lead off with Dye moving to left.

I want him in a White Sox uniform too, although it would take a lot to get him here. He's the only drawing point in Seattle.

kittle42
09-26-2006, 08:11 PM
Funny you should mention that. I was chatting with a couple guys about my "conspiracy" theory regarding Pods, and the notion was, if the SOX can take a hard look at that and straighten out whatever is ailing him, if thats an option, they might be wise just to keep him, because he is still CHEAP, and lefthanded.

Shouldn't you be complaining about the Sun-Times "tampering" with Pierre? :D:

Oldschoolsoxguy
09-26-2006, 10:01 PM
Me thinks Kenny will take another run at Ichiro.He has plenty of prospects and a starter to pull it off.Then go ahead and get Pierre as well and let those two jackrabbits get on ahead of the big boys.Pierre plays left,Suzuki in center,and JD stays in right--no way he's a centerfielder.Of course this also might mean (for payroll purposes)that maybe Captain Paulie (gasp)
has to go in another deal for a couple arms.Out here in SoCal,the Angels
have always wanted him and still would love to see him hitting behind Guerrero.Anybody for a Paulie trade in which Ervin Santana & Scott Shields
come our way,or should i just go ahead and shoot myself for bringing it up ?

BiggestFan14
09-26-2006, 10:06 PM
Stay far, far away from Juan Pierre... or anyone like him for that matter. Go for Ichiro. :smile:

Lip Man 1
09-26-2006, 10:09 PM
I think it's pretty clear that Posednik will be gone. The question is what do the Sox want to replace him? Part of that answer will be solved when Kenny gets his 2007 budget.

I think Ichiro is a real possibility but more then likely the Sox will get someone like Roberts or Pierre to lead off.

Remember Pierre's got zero arm in the outfield and his slow start this season has to be a concern.

Lip

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 10:15 PM
I think it's pretty clear that Posednik will be gone. The question is what do the Sox want to replace him? Part of that answer will be solved when Kenny gets his 2007 budget.

I think Ichiro is a real possibility but more then likely the Sox will get someone like Roberts or Pierre to lead off.

Remember Pierre's got zero arm in the outfield and his slow start this season has to be a concern.

Lip

Mike Cameron wouldn't be horrible either...but he would be the "back-up" option that we didn't have with Mackowiak in CF.

Not sure you want him as an everyday player and if our budget could even support that type of contract (on the bench), but I would feel much better going into the season.

With Ichiro, you're guaranteed of selling out for the season...the problem is when he starts to decline 2-3 years from now and you have nobody to replace the young talent we've given up.

I think we could legitimately go into a period of a couple Sox teams 20 games below .500 unless KW really pulls a rabbit out of the hat with some more trades for young pitchers.

Craig Grebeck
09-26-2006, 10:19 PM
Just say not to Ichiro. He would cost McCarthy/Fields/Broadway or McCullough and he is not worth it. A package like that should net someone who isn't on the wrong side of 30 and has been declining.

sox1970
09-26-2006, 10:26 PM
Just say not to Ichiro. He would cost McCarthy/Fields/Broadway or McCullough and he is not worth it. A package like that should net someone who isn't on the wrong side of 30 and has been declining.

McCulloch isn't tradeable until next June. Draft picks have to stay with the organization that drafted them for a year unless they're released.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 10:30 PM
Just say not to Ichiro. He would cost McCarthy/Fields/Broadway or McCullough and he is not worth it. A package like that should net someone who isn't on the wrong side of 30 and has been declining.

Crawford AND
Upton/Gomes/Cantu

might be a little more realistic.

Not going to be presented with Scott Kazmir, unfortunately.
A couple of months ago, we could have had Lugo in return.

Crawford and Upton (for SS) would be a huge risk for both sides....pretty sure TB would turn it down, even though they prefer Zobriskie at SS right now over BJ, whose offense might not cut it at 3B or OF.

guillen4life13
09-26-2006, 10:58 PM
I've seen this team play for a lot of the year. I think Thome is a good player, however I see him as being the most expendable of the middle-order players. With Crede's development, Thome becomes more and more expendable. Sure, he's a great clubhouse guy, but he's the oldest offensive starter, IIRC, and I just don't think we need him as much as a leadoff hitter.

Who DH's in Seattle? Ben Broussard. Thome would be a significant upgrade for them, and they can move Ibanez to RF to replace Ichiro, and Podsednik can become their LF/leadoff hitter. This way they get that big name in Thome and a viable leadoff hitter in Pods. I'd make that deal anyday if I'm the Sox. Maybe they'll throw in Broussard as he also becomes expendable. The Mariners might want a mid-level farmhand as well, which I would concede. Would that be a reasonable deal?

You can make the deal even bigger by having them toss in Rafael Soriano, and we toss in one of either Fred or Javier (I'd prefer giving them Freddy). We keep the prospect. We might have to eat some salary.

Then you bring in Josh Fields as a platoon DH with Gload. You won't get Thome numbers, but you can get alright numbers (.250, 20, 60 seems reasonable).

Last year, yes, the team hit a bunch of homers, but they did it without a Thome presence. They had Frank for a little while, and they had Carl. Over a whole year, you can get marginally similar production from the rest of the lineup, considering the upgrade Ichiro brings, and Crede's development. Brian Anderson is going to be better overall than this year, though I don't think he will be at his potential yet. If his second half means anything, he should continue to improve.

If the Sox can bring in a 6th starter (or bring Haeger in to take McCarthy's 2006 role), they'd be set.

Can you imagine this lineup?

Ichiro
Iguchi
Dye
Konerko
Pierzynski
Crede
Fields/Gload/Broussard
Anderson
Cintron (Uribe's gone for bullpen help)

Looks a lot more balanced than the 2006, or even the 2005 version. May not be as intimidating per se, but it can manufacture runs a helluva lot better.

You get a good setup man in Soriano if things work out.

But maybe it's all a pipe dream.

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 11:05 PM
I've seen this team play for a lot of the year. I think Thome is a good player, however I see him as being the most expendable of the middle-order players. With Crede's development, Thome becomes more and more expendable. Sure, he's a great clubhouse guy, but he's the oldest offensive starter, IIRC, and I just don't think we need him as much as a leadoff hitter.

Who DH's in Seattle? Ben Broussard. Thome would be a significant upgrade for them, and they can move Ibanez to RF to replace Ichiro, and Podsednik can become their LF/leadoff hitter. This way they get that big name in Thome and a viable leadoff hitter in Pods. I'd make that deal anyday if I'm the Sox. Maybe they'll throw in Broussard as he also becomes expendable. The Mariners might want a mid-level farmhand as well, which I would concede. Would that be a reasonable deal?

You can make the deal even bigger by having them toss in Rafael Soriano, and we toss in one of either Fred or Javier (I'd prefer giving them Freddy). We keep the prospect. We might have to eat some salary.

Then you bring in Josh Fields as a platoon DH with Gload. You won't get Thome numbers, but you can get alright numbers (.250, 20, 60 seems reasonable).

Last year, yes, the team hit a bunch of homers, but they did it without a Thome presence. They had Frank for a little while, and they had Carl. Over a whole year, you can get marginally similar production from the rest of the lineup, considering the upgrade Ichiro brings, and Crede's development. Brian Anderson is going to be better overall than this year, though I don't think he will be at his potential yet. If his second half means anything, he should continue to improve.

If the Sox can bring in a 6th starter (or bring Haeger in to take McCarthy's 2006 role), they'd be set.

Can you imagine this lineup?

Ichiro
Iguchi
Dye
Konerko
Pierzynski
Crede
Fields/Gload/Broussard
Anderson
Cintron (Uribe's gone for bullpen help)

Looks a lot more balanced than the 2006, or even the 2005 version. May not be as intimidating per se, but it can manufacture runs a helluva lot better.

You get a good setup man in Soriano if things work out.

But maybe it's all a pipe dream.

That bottom three seems like a nightmare to me.

Pods was property of the M's for a long time, don't see why they would want him back.

Ibanez would be a very below average RF. They don't even have a CF, they have players like Adam Jones, Bloomquist and Reed, but no clear answers.

I know for sure they wouldn't want Garcia back.

guillen4life13
09-27-2006, 12:14 AM
That bottom three seems like a nightmare to me.

Pods was property of the M's for a long time, don't see why they would want him back.

Ibanez would be a very below average RF. They don't even have a CF, they have players like Adam Jones, Bloomquist and Reed, but no clear answers.

I know for sure they wouldn't want Garcia back.


Fair points. I forgot about Pods having been in their system for so long.

However, if we can lost Thome to get a viable leadoff hitter (Ichiro/Crawford or someone of lesser caliber+relief) would you do it?

I'd do it in a heartbeat. Not Pierre. I have no desire to see him on the south side.

Do any teams have farmhands who are ready to break in as leadoff hitters with consistent high obp and high sb stats in the minors? Maybe we can land someone like that.

caulfield12
09-27-2006, 07:11 AM
Fair points. I forgot about Pods having been in their system for so long.

However, if we can lost Thome to get a viable leadoff hitter (Ichiro/Crawford or someone of lesser caliber+relief) would you do it?

I'd do it in a heartbeat. Not Pierre. I have no desire to see him on the south side.

Do any teams have farmhands who are ready to break in as leadoff hitters with consistent high obp and high sb stats in the minors? Maybe we can land someone like that.

A few people have been talking about Denofrio (sp) on the Reds...or Freel.

russ99
09-27-2006, 08:52 AM
However, if we can lost Thome to get a viable leadoff hitter (Ichiro/Crawford or someone of lesser caliber+relief) would you do it?

I'd do it in a heartbeat. Not Pierre. I have no desire to see him on the south side.

Jim Thome does a lot for this club. Trading him for a leadoff guy and especially for that hard-to-quantify OBP stat smacks of Moneyball.

I see a starter being traded to clear up the LF, CF or SS problem positions. I also see Pods leaving as a non-tendered FA, but Kenny just might keep him around on a much lower contract for insurance and a possible trade chip.

credefan24
09-27-2006, 09:20 AM
Ok, there's something that I have been thinking about the past few days.
Why is there such a desire to cast off Anderson? I know he only had 8 HRs, and hit .230, but cmon, he's a rook, and don't players need to develop?
I mean, his defense is top notch, he really can hussle. Why sacrifice his glove because he didn't hit that well? Plus, I believe after the break, he is batting .299 or somewhere around that.
I dunno, it just seems kind of strange that we are begining to hear these "center field problem" issue arise.

BigPapaPump
09-27-2006, 09:32 AM
Ok, there's something that I have been thinking about the past few days.
Why is there such a desire to cast off Anderson? I know he only had 8 HRs, and hit .230, but cmon, he's a rook, and don't players need to develop?
I mean, his defense is top notch, he really can hussle. Why sacrifice his glove because he didn't hit that well? Plus, I believe after the break, he is batting .299 or somewhere around that.
I dunno, it just seems kind of strange that we are begining to hear these "center field problem" issue arise.

I like Anderson, and he should be given the same treatment Crede got when he first came up. I think that Ozzie is just a little hot right now cause how his team underperformed and Anderson is an easy target, but in the long run Anderson looks like he could be a hell of a player.

EMachine10
09-27-2006, 10:08 AM
Crede and Aaron Rowand for that matter. Rowand, oddly enough, did the same thing anderson did....ice cold first half, red hot second half (i know brian hasn't exactly been red hot, but he's been noticably better)...This happened for a few years before Aaron actually solidified himself as a quality MLB player

INSox56
09-27-2006, 11:26 AM
A few people have been talking about Denofrio (sp) on the Reds...or Freel.

The one and only drawback for Freel I see is that all of his stats are against NL pitchers, so who knows. But he's cheap, a HUGE grinder throwing his body all over the place, a sparkplug, quick on the bases, career .367 obp , .274 avg.

I don't know, but I don't think we're going to get a big pickup in the OF AND SS...I have a feeling it'll be one or the other. So if we get a Michael Young for SS, I think a lesser player like Freel would go in the OF. I don't see us replacing two OF positions from outside the team. I see BA/sweeney in one of the OF spots with Dye and a replacement from outside. If that's a huge player like Ichiro or something, I see a less expensive or in-house move at short.

Could go either way I guess.

caulfield12
09-27-2006, 02:16 PM
The one and only drawback for Freel I see is that all of his stats are against NL pitchers, so who knows. But he's cheap, a HUGE grinder throwing his body all over the place, a sparkplug, quick on the bases, career .367 obp , .274 avg.

I don't know, but I don't think we're going to get a big pickup in the OF AND SS...I have a feeling it'll be one or the other. So if we get a Michael Young for SS, I think a lesser player like Freel would go in the OF. I don't see us replacing two OF positions from outside the team. I see BA/sweeney in one of the OF spots with Dye and a replacement from outside. If that's a huge player like Ichiro or something, I see a less expensive or in-house move at short.

Could go either way I guess.

Well, I can pretty much guarantee it won't be Valido, Gonzalez or Pedro Lopez, so we'll need to look outside the organization for SS.

Foulke You
09-27-2006, 02:49 PM
Just say not to Ichiro. He would cost McCarthy/Fields/Broadway or McCullough and he is not worth it. A package like that should net someone who isn't on the wrong side of 30 and has been declining.
I think you are underestimating what a guy like Ichiro would do to our team. Personally, I would do McCarthy/Fields/Broadway for Ichiro in NY second. It nets you a HUGE impact player and one of the best outfielders in the game without compromising the core of the team. He has EVERYTHING the Sox need. A guy who can play any outfield position, plays great defense, has a cannon for a throwing arm, can lay down a successful bunt, gets an obscene amount of hits per year, can steal bases, and occasionally hits for power. You want to get back to the World Series in 2007? Ichiro is a huge step in the right direction. However, I think it is a pipe dream because I believe Seattle is going to do everything they can to keep him.

spiffie
09-27-2006, 02:58 PM
I think you are underestimating what a guy like Ichiro would do to our team. Personally, I would do McCarthy/Fields/Broadway for Ichiro in NY second. It nets you a HUGE impact player and one of the best outfielders in the game without compromising the core of the team. He has EVERYTHING the Sox need. A guy who can play any outfield position, plays great defense, has a cannon for a throwing arm, can lay down a successful bunt, gets an obscene amount of hits per year, can steal bases, and occasionally hits for power. You want to get back to the World Series in 2007? Ichiro is a huge step in the right direction. However, I think it is a pipe dream because I believe Seattle is going to do everything they can to keep him.
Yeah, but then you'd lose our long man, a guy who really has no position on our team right now, and a rookie pitcher who no one has a clue if he will pan out in the majors. How could we handle such a loss?

caulfield12
09-27-2006, 03:40 PM
Yeah, but then you'd lose our long man, a guy who really has no position on our team right now, and a rookie pitcher who no one has a clue if he will pan out in the majors. How could we handle such a loss?


We very well might find out in 2008 and 2009 when the musical chairs stop and our farm system is ranked in the bottom 3.

Foulke You
09-27-2006, 04:05 PM
We very well might find out in 2008 and 2009 when the musical chairs stop and our farm system is ranked in the bottom 3.
As long as the payroll stays around the $100 million mark, with KW at the helm, the White Sox should be fine. The Red Sox and Yankees seem to do ok with a slightly depleted farm system. When the minor league cupboard is bare, you add to your team through free agency or trades for a year or two as the Red Sox have done the last few years. Then you build up your farm system again through a couple year's drafts or via a trade or two. Plus, the Sox haven't shown the ability to scout/draft as well as Minnesota so why not play to KW's strength which is trading for impact players via trades and free agency? You can't pass up an opportunity to get a player like Ichiro worrying about whether we'll have enough ammo in 2010. If you think that way, you may end up with a stockpile of overrated prospects and a lot of woulda coulda shouldas.

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2006, 04:16 PM
As long as the payroll stays around the $100 million mark, with KW at the helm, the White Sox should be fine. The Red Sox and Yankees seem to do ok with a slightly depleted farm system. When the minor league cupboard is bare, you add to your team through free agency or trades for a year or two as the Red Sox have done the last few years. Then you build up your farm system again through a couple year's drafts or via a trade or two. Plus, the Sox haven't shown the ability to scout/draft as well as Minnesota so why not play to KW's strength which is trading for impact players via trades and free agency? You can't pass up an opportunity to get a player like Ichiro worrying about whether we'll have enough ammo in 2010. If you think that way, you may end up with a stockpile of overrated prospects and a lot of woulda coulda shouldas.I think you're taking a sensible idea and going way too far with it. The Yankees have a $200M payroll and the Red Sox are somewhere above $120M, IIRC. The White Sox are never going to be in that financial neighborhood.

There's a middle ground here. If they undervalue prospects, they're not going to be able to compete in a spending contest. If they overvalue them, they're going to have to rely on a lot of factors that historically are very fickle. The Sox are where they are in large measure because they've been able to mix players they brought up through their system with some higher-priced players acquired from outside. Trading away the whole farm system for one player well past his best years is a prescription for some pretty bad teams in years to come.

Flight #24
09-27-2006, 04:17 PM
I think you're taking a sensible idea and going way too far with it. The Yankees have a $200M payroll and the Red Sox are somewhere above $120M, IIRC. The White Sox are never going to be in that financial neighborhood.

There's a middle ground here. If they undervalue prospects, they're not going to be able to compete in a spending contest. If they overvalue them, they're going to have to rely on a lot of factors that historically are very fickle. The Sox are where they are in large measure because they've been able to mix players they brought up through their system with some higher-priced players acquired from outside. Trading away the whole farm system for one player well past his best years is a prescription for some pretty bad teams in years to come.

Something KW is eminently cognizant of and why you won't see a trade like Field+McCarthy+Anderson for Ichiro. That's a recipe for "aging" in KW's vernacular.

southside rocks
09-27-2006, 04:25 PM
I think you are underestimating what a guy like Ichiro would do to our team. Personally, I would do McCarthy/Fields/Broadway for Ichiro in NY second. It nets you a HUGE impact player and one of the best outfielders in the game without compromising the core of the team. He has EVERYTHING the Sox need. A guy who can play any outfield position, plays great defense, has a cannon for a throwing arm, can lay down a successful bunt, gets an obscene amount of hits per year, can steal bases, and occasionally hits for power. You want to get back to the World Series in 2007? Ichiro is a huge step in the right direction. However, I think it is a pipe dream because I believe Seattle is going to do everything they can to keep him.

Ummm ... can he pitch?

Because that's what the Sox really needed this year, and it's what they'll really need next year.

As others have pointed out, Ichiro's age is a strike against him, probably the only strike needed (well, and his inability to throw a major-league curve).

Increase the OBP and decrease the median age of the lineup, bolster the pitching, and 2007 will be a very good year for the White Sox. :D:

soxinem1
09-27-2006, 04:29 PM
How about Eric Byrnes? He plays hard, can run, steals with high success, has some pop, and has hit well at the Cell in the past with OAK.

He can also play CF on occasion if needed.

Last year he was shuffled between three teams, but otherwise has been a pretty solid player. His career OBP is not the best, but he's more rounded than Pods, IMO.

And he'll be a free agent in October.

Either him or Coco Crisp should be sought to play LF next year.

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2006, 04:29 PM
Ummm ... can he pitch?

Because that's what the Sox really needed this year, and it's what they'll really need next year.

As others have pointed out, Ichiro's age is a strike against him, probably the only strike needed (well, and his inability to throw a major-league curve).

Increase the OBP and decrease the median age of the lineup, bolster the pitching, and 2007 will be a very good year for the White Sox. :D:While pitching is undoubtedly the biggest problem KW has to fix, it's by no means the only one. The Sox offense was woeful in the second half. Every year, lots of teams with good pitching are playing golf in October.

southside rocks
09-27-2006, 04:40 PM
While pitching is undoubtedly the biggest problem KW has to fix, it's by no means the only one. The Sox offense was woeful in the second half. Every year, lots of teams with good pitching are playing golf in October.

Agree, but I hope to see pitching addressed before they would consider adding an aging superstar whose contributions could be gotten from other players at lesser cost and/or with longer futures.

Mind you, I loved the way Ichiro scaled the outfield wall on Sunday after those homeruns! :wink:

Sox-o-matic
09-27-2006, 04:53 PM
How about Eric Byrnes? He plays hard, can run, steals with high success, has some pop, and has hit well at the Cell in the past with OAK.

He can also play CF on occasion if needed.

Last year he was shuffled between three teams, but otherwise has been a pretty solid player. His career OBP is not the best, but he's more rounded than Pods, IMO.

And he'll be a free agent in October.

Either him or Coco Crisp should be sought to play LF next year.

Byrnes is a big, big risk, which is why he ended up only signing a one year deal with a non-contending team over an offseason that lacked real centerfield options.

There is also a reason why he was played for 3 different teams last year. Now if we're talking about a 4th OF, Byrnes would be a great option, but I think after the career year this year he will command too much to be a bench player.

soxinem1
09-27-2006, 05:31 PM
Byrnes is a big, big risk, which is why he ended up only signing a one year deal with a non-contending team over an offseason that lacked real centerfield options.

There is also a reason why he was played for 3 different teams last year. Now if we're talking about a 4th OF, Byrnes would be a great option, but I think after the career year this year he will command too much to be a bench player.

Why is he such a risk? Is he any riskier than Everett, Thome, Pods, Iguchi, Shingo, AJ, Jenks, Hermanson, or the host of other retreads Williams signed?

And why as a fourth OF? He can play, and has the aggressive attitude the Sox need. OAK traded him because of $$$, and BAL expected him to be a savior. He won't need to be that here.

The guy can steal, plays hard, and has good numbers when he played regularly.

TaylorStSox
09-27-2006, 05:35 PM
Why is he such a risk? Is he any riskier than Everett, Thome, Pods, Iguchi, Shingo, AJ, Jenks, Hermanson, or the host of other retreads Williams signed?

And why as a fourth OF? He can play, and has the aggressive attitude the Sox need. OAK traded him because of $$$, and BAL expected him to be a savior. He won't need to be that here.

The guy can steal, plays hard, and has good numbers when he played regularly.



Why is he a risk? He's a slow Pods with a mullet. He can't hit and he absolutely SUCKS defensively.

As far as Pierre goes, I wouldn't mind him in left. He can run, bunt and he puts the ball in play.

Craig Grebeck
09-27-2006, 06:02 PM
As far as Pierre goes, I wouldn't mind him in left. He can run, bunt and he puts the ball in play.

:?:

Puts the ball in play? That would be nice if it was anything more than a weak ground ball.

guillen4life13
09-27-2006, 06:14 PM
Jim Thome does a lot for this club. Trading him for a leadoff guy and especially for that hard-to-quantify OBP stat smacks of Moneyball.

I see a starter being traded to clear up the LF, CF or SS problem positions. I also see Pods leaving as a non-tendered FA, but Kenny just might keep him around on a much lower contract for insurance and a possible trade chip.

I'm not knocking Thome. I see him being expendable because

a) He's older.
b) He strikes out a lot.
c) The White Sox already have players who do what Thome does in Konerko, Dye, and now to a lesser extent, Crede.

It's not moneyball I'm thinking (and by the way, it's the A's, not the White Sox who are going to the playoffs this year). I'm talking about a leadoff hitter. Do what Pods did last year, maybe do better than that.

The White Sox need to stop relying on the home run so much. Sure they hit over 200 homers last year, but that isn't why they won. They won because they scored when they needed to, and they had pitching. To me, that's more important.

Part of that involves getting a solid leadoff hitter (relatively high OBP) who can wreak havoc on pitchers' psyches when he's on the base paths. Ichiro comes to mind. Crawford comes to mind. What makes them better than Pods is that they both have some pop also, but that's not even a priority to me. Let Dye, PK and Crede provide the pop. The rest need to provide situational, heads up baseball.

TaylorStSox
09-27-2006, 06:19 PM
:?:

Puts the ball in play? That would be nice if it was anything more than a weak ground ball.


He is a .300 lifetime hitter and leads the NL in hits.

Craig Grebeck
09-27-2006, 06:33 PM
He is a .300 lifetime hitter and leads the NL in hits.
Because he never ever ever ever walks. And he gets A TON of at bats every year.

Domeshot17
09-27-2006, 06:41 PM
If he took a discount to play for ozzie I would take Pierre in a second. He would be a major upgrade over Pods and, frankly, some people on this board tick me off a little with the arguement about his arm.

You dont want him because he has a weak arm, ok you know who has a cannon and is on the trade block: MANNY.

I accept the low OBP arguement, but I also think that will go up in the AL. Keep in mind he will have a hitter hitting infront of him not a pitcher, and Tadahito is a much better 2 hitter then the crap they have on the cubs. Doesnt mean his walks will go up, but hell see better pitches.

as for carl crawford, You people are DREAMING. Since we can just get whoever we want I will take Pujols Utley Young Oswalt and Chris Carpenter while we are at it. You cant pencil Crawford in the lineup hitting 1, and fields or sweeney in the same lineup, because he will cost both of them and B Mac. Same goes for Ichiro.

Mike Young is much more realistic because Texas is unhappy with him. Deal of Freddy Owens and Uribe should land young. IF we get young, then I would REALLY love Pierre

The reason

Young leads off, Pierre hits 2, and Tadahito drops to 6 7 or 8. Tadahito breaks up the ALL or NOTHING hitters we have in middle of the order (basically from 3-6). He also puts a little bit of speed inbetween the station to station guys like thome konerko and crede. Pierres OBP is fine at 2, especially when you can utilize his bunting to move guys along, and his speed which may lead to less double plays.

I also would bring back Pods to be the fourth OF/Pinch Runner. Move Ozuna back to the back up IF role. The Ideal role for Pods (who is fine at all 3 OF positions) is 2-3 starts a week, and pinch running for konerko or thome or crede or AJ in the 9th inning.

Ideal lineup for me is

Young SS
Pierre LF
Thome DH
Konerko 1b
Dye RF (dont care what the numbers are, dye hitting 5=we won alot more)
Iguchi 2b
Crede 3b
AJ C
Sweeney/Anderson CF

We have most of the right pieces, I just wish we could put them where they belong.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-27-2006, 08:17 PM
Cub fan at work tried to convince me that was a good idea. That's enough to make me suspicious right there.

Hitmen77
09-27-2006, 08:46 PM
The context of the previous discussion was for leadoff hitters. But if you find a "high OBP, no speed" SS and plug Fields into LF, who leads off? I don't see anyone who can fill the bill. It's not just about being net positive, but having all the spots in your lineup filled. You need both speed AND OBP at the top of the order.

Furthermore, given Anderson's struggles this year, you can't realistically know what to expect from him next year. If you put a rookie in LF (rookies are always question marks) can you afford TWO question marks in the OF? Supppose BOTH of them hit .230 next year? IMO, if you're going to keep Anderson in CF next year you need something more certain in LF.

I agree. I like BA and I'm not worried with the Sox going with him in CF next year. But, I think it would be a big mistake to go with him AND Sweeney/Fields in LF until someone of the bunch becomes an established big league ballplayer.

Aside from Fields first AB HR, it's not like Fields or Sweeney have been getting many hits so far this month. I suspect they're not quite ready yet.

soxinem1
09-27-2006, 10:16 PM
Why is he a risk? He's a slow Pods with a mullet. He can't hit and he absolutely SUCKS defensively.

As far as Pierre goes, I wouldn't mind him in left. He can run, bunt and he puts the ball in play.

Hmmm, Byrnes is no burner, but he is 23 of 26 in SB's this year, and 63 of 72 in his career. He has more pop by far than Slappy Pierre, who needs close to 700 AB to get 200 hits.

If he's such a great SB guy, why is his success rate so low?

And defensively? Watch him play deep or at the walls, he acts like the wall is made of glass.

I'll take Byrnes aggressive hustle any day over Pods and Pierre's ballerina style of play any day. Let some other sucker pay him $40 million for five years.

Brian26
09-27-2006, 10:33 PM
No, I want Carl Crawford.

So do 29 other teams.

HotelWhiteSox
09-27-2006, 10:35 PM
He is a .300 lifetime hitter and leads the NL in hits.

And also around .300 against lefties. Crappy arm, but less of a problem in left and he'll have no problem getting to balls (keep Brian in CF), I am all for this

Brian26
09-27-2006, 10:35 PM
No no no. Just give me Josh Fields in left, Carl Crawford in Center, and Michael Young at SS.

At least two guys out of position. That'll help our defense next year.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2006, 10:36 PM
There's a comment on whitesox.com where Ozzie is again talking about dropping Iguchi into the #7 slot next season, if the Sox can get a #2 hitter and "if he (Iguchi) comes back."

If?????

:?:

I suggested that Ozzie may have soured on him but this is the first I've ever heard him say anything like that in regards to him publicly.

Lip

Brian26
09-27-2006, 10:37 PM
Melton said that Pods was unimpressive in the first half of '05, on fire in the second half of '05, and back to underwhelming for all of this year.

Melton knows his stuff, so I assume you're misquoting him here. Pods had a good half in the FIRST half of '05, and a crappy 2nd half. Not the other way around. Remember the vote for Pods campaign for the All-Star Game....

Brian26
09-27-2006, 10:42 PM
I know Pods stole 40 this year

I was stunned when I saw this stat in the paper the other day. That's got to be the quietest 40 steals I've ever seen by any player. It seems like he hasn't stolen a base since Memorial Day.

caulfield12
09-27-2006, 10:46 PM
There's a comment on whitesox.com where Ozzie is again talking about dropping Iguchi into the #7 slot next season, if the Sox can get a #2 hitter and "if he (Iguchi) comes back."

If?????

:?:

I suggested that Ozzie may have soured on him but this is the first I've ever heard him say anything like that in regards to him publicly.

Lip

I think you're reading too much into that. I think he was probably just PO'ed and wanted to make the statement nobody is guaranteed to come back and nobody is guaranteed NOT to come back (yet).

And whoever thinks we can trade Freddy (Jerry) Owens (another WR!) and Uribe for Michael Young is full of it.

NoNeckEra
09-27-2006, 10:51 PM
:?:

Puts the ball in play? That would be nice if it was anything more than a weak ground ball.
Think about this next statement, because I believe every word of it:
Over the last two months of the season, if the Sox had 9 Juan Pierres in their batting order, they would far surpass their win total over that period of time. I am sick and tired of poor quality at bats which result in zero offense when the opposing pitcher has good stuff, and a million runs when the opposing pitching sucks. Granted, our 3-7 probably aren't going to change. So that means 1,2,8 & 9 have to change, and Pierre is the kind of guy we need.

Sox-o-matic
09-27-2006, 11:47 PM
Wait, Pierre WANTS Baker to stay???? Do we need a headcase like that on the Sox??????????????

What is he supposed to say?

"**** Dusty Baker?"

Maybe after this season is over we'll get to hear from many ex-Cubs on Dusty's 'managerial' style.

Beautox
09-28-2006, 01:35 AM
Miggy Tejada anyone?

I'd keep BA in CF, sign or trade for a new LF that could leadoff, and trade Garcia, Uribe, and Pods for Tejada.

Pass the good stuff.

First we don't need Tejada, we have enough power through out this line up.

Secondly you would have to give up one of the following Garland or Jose + Uribe + ________(Phillips,Haeger,Logan,Harell). No Thank You.

The only two SS names i want to hear be buzzing around the white sox this offseason are: Jimmy Rollins & Michael Young.

Beautox
09-28-2006, 01:38 AM
Funny you should mention that. I was chatting with a couple guys about my "conspiracy" theory regarding Pods, and the notion was, if the SOX can take a hard look at that and straighten out whatever is ailing him, if thats an option, they might be wise just to keep him, because he is still CHEAP, and lefthanded.


You know whos even cheaper and left handed? Jerry Owens, and do you know what i say to that? no.

Beautox
09-28-2006, 02:11 AM
Mike Cameron wouldn't be horrible either...but he would be the "back-up" option that we didn't have with Mackowiak in CF.

Not sure you want him as an everyday player and if our budget could even support that type of contract (on the bench), but I would feel much better going into the season.

With Ichiro, you're guaranteed of selling out for the season...the problem is when he starts to decline 2-3 years from now and you have nobody to replace the young talent we've given up.

I think we could legitimately go into a period of a couple Sox teams 20 games below .500 unless KW really pulls a rabbit out of the hat with some more trades for young pitchers.

This will be the forth straight season that the M's atendance has declined, Ichiro isn't quite the selling point in Seattle when the franchise as a whole is in a quagmire. Seattle like everyone sans the white sox, marlins, angels, detroit, twins, and dodgers need pitching preferably young pitching badly. Seattle has a pitchers park they would be wise to embrace that. To conciebly get Ichrio you would have to give up a pitcher that would be ML ready by mid '07(Broadway) and a posistion prospect(Fields/Sweeney) thats alot to give up. But seeing how the white sox appear to have a good relationship with Asian players and the fact Ichiro would provide alot of additional revenue, it would be worth it.

Also as far as our farm system goes the '07 draft is supposed to be the deepest draft in 15 years more so than the '03 draft (Mauer,Prior,Teixeira). With Ichiro "declining" thats 2-3 years and 4-6 first and second round picks to supplement our OF and farm as a whole.

Ichiro Suzuki of
4 years/$44M (2004-07)

$6M signing bonus
04:$5M, 05:$11M, 06:$11M, 07:$11M; avoided arbitration 12/03
housing allowance ($28,000 in 04, $29,000 in 05, $30,000 in 06, $31,000 in 07)
interpreter, trainer, ground transportation for Spring Training & regular season
4 annual round-trip airline tickets from Seattle to Japan
$1.5M in incentives for PAs:
$50,000 each for 400 PAs, 2004-06
$0.1M each for 500 & 600 PAs, 2004-06
$0.1M for 400 PAs, 2007
$0.2M for 500 & 600 PAs, 2007
$50,000 All Star incentive
3 years/$14.088M (2001-03)
$5M signing bonus, 01:$5M, 02:$2M, 03:$3M
$7M deferred with interest ($4M of bonus, $2M of 2001 salary, $1M of 2003 salary)
incentives: 01:$2M, 02:$3M, plus $0.125M All Star incentive
Seattle paid $13M for negotiating rights with Ichiro
agent: Tony Attanasio
ML service: 5.000As For Crawford, we must first look at the D-rays as a whole to get a better understanding. Upton has 13 errors on the season; had he started the season from the opener he would be on pace for over 50 at 3B, thats not remotely acceptable. Upton has the atheltisim to play the OF and appears to have the speed/range to play CF. The Rays will be looking to move either Baldelli or Crawford this offseason, both have really friendly contracts.

So what does this mean? the D-Rays will want pitching and a prospect at 3B, we happen to have some of the peices; provided we move one to two of our starters we should have enough peices to aquire the likes of Crawfor d, we already have the peices to get Balledelli, and to further illustrate my point.

LET THE RUMORS BEGIN: An unsourced report in the New York Post on Tuesday said the Rays will offer Crawford for trade this offseason in order to strengthen their starting rotation. Rays executive vice president Andrew Friedman doesn't comment on specific trade rumors, but he has said in the past that the Rays are open to any deal that would significantly strengthen the team. Any trade for Crawford likely would have to bring back an established major-league ace and two or more top-tier prospects. TBO.com (http://www.tbo.com/sports/rays/MGBR6X95LSE.html)

Craig Grebeck
09-28-2006, 06:29 AM
Think about this next statement, because I believe every word of it:
Over the last two months of the season, if the Sox had 9 Juan Pierres in their batting order, they would far surpass their win total over that period of time. I am sick and tired of poor quality at bats which result in zero offense when the opposing pitcher has good stuff, and a million runs when the opposing pitching sucks. Granted, our 3-7 probably aren't going to change. So that means 1,2,8 & 9 have to change, and Pierre is the kind of guy we need.
Nine Juan Pierres would be the worst offense in the history of baseball.

If Pods got on base we would have scored more runs, upping our win total. We need someone to get on base, and Pierre is awful at that. He has a lower OBP than Pods and a much lower IsoD. Lets not waste money on an overrated slappy hack of a centerfielder.

Bucky F. Dent
09-28-2006, 06:48 AM
No stick, no arm, no thanks!

MiamiSpartan
09-28-2006, 07:02 AM
He was instrumental to the Marlins' 03 title, but he is inconsistant. He can go on tears where he is on base all the time, but then he just dissapears. He is amazing in the filed, tho.

guillen4life13
09-28-2006, 11:33 AM
This will be the forth straight season that the M's atendance has declined, Ichiro isn't quite the selling point in Seattle when the franchise as a whole is in a quagmire. Seattle like everyone sans the white sox, marlins, angels, detroit, twins, and dodgers need pitching preferably young pitching badly. Seattle has a pitchers park they would be wise to embrace that. To conciebly get Ichrio you would have to give up a pitcher that would be ML ready by mid '07(Broadway) and a posistion prospect(Fields/Sweeney) thats alot to give up. But seeing how the white sox appear to have a good relationship with Asian players and the fact Ichiro would provide alot of additional revenue, it would be worth it.

Also as far as our farm system goes the '07 draft is supposed to be the deepest draft in 15 years more so than the '03 draft (Mauer,Prior,Teixeira). With Ichiro "declining" thats 2-3 years and 4-6 first and second round picks to supplement our OF and farm as a whole.

Ichiro Suzuki of
4 years/$44M (2004-07)

$6M signing bonus
04:$5M, 05:$11M, 06:$11M, 07:$11M; avoided arbitration 12/03
housing allowance ($28,000 in 04, $29,000 in 05, $30,000 in 06, $31,000 in 07)
interpreter, trainer, ground transportation for Spring Training & regular season
4 annual round-trip airline tickets from Seattle to Japan
$1.5M in incentives for PAs:
$50,000 each for 400 PAs, 2004-06
$0.1M each for 500 & 600 PAs, 2004-06
$0.1M for 400 PAs, 2007
$0.2M for 500 & 600 PAs, 2007


$50,000 All Star incentive
3 years/$14.088M (2001-03)
$5M signing bonus, 01:$5M, 02:$2M, 03:$3M
$7M deferred with interest ($4M of bonus, $2M of 2001 salary, $1M of 2003 salary)
incentives: 01:$2M, 02:$3M, plus $0.125M All Star incentive
Seattle paid $13M for negotiating rights with Ichiro
agent: Tony Attanasio
ML service: 5.000As For Crawford, we must first look at the D-rays as a whole to get a better understanding. Upton has 13 errors on the season; had he started the season from the opener he would be on pace for over 50 at 3B, thats not remotely acceptable. Upton has the atheltisim to play the OF and appears to have the speed/range to play CF. The Rays will be looking to move either Baldelli or Crawford this offseason, both have really friendly contracts.

So what does this mean? the D-Rays will want pitching and a prospect at 3B, we happen to have some of the peices; provided we move one to two of our starters we should have enough peices to aquire the likes of Crawfor d, we already have the peices to get Balledelli, and to further illustrate my point.

TBO.com (http://www.tbo.com/sports/rays/MGBR6X95LSE.html)


This all sounds very interesting. I'd deal Fields and Garcia for Crawford. That could (could) be all they'd want.

soxfan13
09-28-2006, 12:01 PM
Pass the good stuff.

First we don't need Tejada, we have enough power through out this line up.

Secondly you would have to give up one of the following Garland or Jose + Uribe + ________(Phillips,Haeger,Logan,Harell). No Thank You.

The only two SS names i want to hear be buzzing around the white sox this offseason are: Jimmy Rollins & Michael Young.

What do you think the Phillies and Rangers would ask for those two? A case of beer and a cigar:rolleyes:

guillen4life13
09-28-2006, 12:13 PM
What do you think the Phillies and Rangers would ask for those two? A case of beer and a cigar:rolleyes:

Less than the Orioles. For something we need more.

Young is more realistic given Hicks' comments about him.

soxfan13
09-28-2006, 12:23 PM
Less than the Orioles. For something we need more.

Young is more realistic given Hicks' comments about him.

I dont think so, the rangers will definately want a guy that can step right in and start(contreras or garcia) they will need the replacement for young(Uribe) and will want a prospect(anyone of the above mentioned) so why not go for tejada

caulfield12
09-28-2006, 12:24 PM
This will be the forth straight season that the M's atendance has declined, Ichiro isn't quite the selling point in Seattle when the franchise as a whole is in a quagmire. Seattle like everyone sans the white sox, marlins, angels, detroit, twins, and dodgers need pitching preferably young pitching badly. Seattle has a pitchers park they would be wise to embrace that. To conciebly get Ichrio you would have to give up a pitcher that would be ML ready by mid '07(Broadway) and a posistion prospect(Fields/Sweeney) thats alot to give up. But seeing how the white sox appear to have a good relationship with Asian players and the fact Ichiro would provide alot of additional revenue, it would be worth it.

Also as far as our farm system goes the '07 draft is supposed to be the deepest draft in 15 years more so than the '03 draft (Mauer,Prior,Teixeira). With Ichiro "declining" thats 2-3 years and 4-6 first and second round picks to supplement our OF and farm as a whole.

Ichiro Suzuki of
4 years/$44M (2004-07)

$6M signing bonus
04:$5M, 05:$11M, 06:$11M, 07:$11M; avoided arbitration 12/03
housing allowance ($28,000 in 04, $29,000 in 05, $30,000 in 06, $31,000 in 07)
interpreter, trainer, ground transportation for Spring Training & regular season
4 annual round-trip airline tickets from Seattle to Japan
$1.5M in incentives for PAs:
$50,000 each for 400 PAs, 2004-06
$0.1M each for 500 & 600 PAs, 2004-06
$0.1M for 400 PAs, 2007
$0.2M for 500 & 600 PAs, 2007


$50,000 All Star incentive
3 years/$14.088M (2001-03)
$5M signing bonus, 01:$5M, 02:$2M, 03:$3M
$7M deferred with interest ($4M of bonus, $2M of 2001 salary, $1M of 2003 salary)
incentives: 01:$2M, 02:$3M, plus $0.125M All Star incentive
Seattle paid $13M for negotiating rights with Ichiro
agent: Tony Attanasio
ML service: 5.000As For Crawford, we must first look at the D-rays as a whole to get a better understanding. Upton has 13 errors on the season; had he started the season from the opener he would be on pace for over 50 at 3B, thats not remotely acceptable. Upton has the atheltisim to play the OF and appears to have the speed/range to play CF. The Rays will be looking to move either Baldelli or Crawford this offseason, both have really friendly contracts.

So what does this mean? the D-Rays will want pitching and a prospect at 3B, we happen to have some of the peices; provided we move one to two of our starters we should have enough peices to aquire the likes of Crawfor d, we already have the peices to get Balledelli, and to further illustrate my point.

TBO.com (http://www.tbo.com/sports/rays/MGBR6X95LSE.html)

The only problem is that D-Rays have never been the type of team to go after Garcia, Vazquez or Buehrle in trades because they can't afford them.

Their only interest would be in McCarthy or Broadway, MAYBE Garland.

But weakening our rotation by dealing Brandon or Jon for Crawford doesn't make much sense, as we all agree that the biggest need we have is solid starting pitching and a better bullpen.

If you can package some of our position prospects with Broadway, then it's worth considering, but it's going to take more than Pods/Owens + Broadway for Crawford. Maybe that's enough for Baldelli, but I'm not even sure about that.

Foulke You
09-28-2006, 12:45 PM
Ummm ... can he pitch?

Because that's what the Sox really needed this year, and it's what they'll really need next year.

As others have pointed out, Ichiro's age is a strike against him, probably the only strike needed (well, and his inability to throw a major-league curve).

Increase the OBP and decrease the median age of the lineup, bolster the pitching, and 2007 will be a very good year for the White Sox. :D:
I never said that Ichiro was the ONLY thing we needed. Obviously, a revamped bullpen should be #1 on KW's checklist. The rotation could use some tweaking too. However, Ichiro is one of the game's best leadoff hitters and has all the qualities we are looking for. If we can get him for some prospects, KW should take a long hard look at it.

DaleJRFan
09-28-2006, 12:54 PM
I haven't read every post in this thread, so it might have been said already, but.... According to ESPN insider (linkie (http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors)), the Devil Rays are going to dangle Crawford this off-season. Maybe there's a deal here for the Sox. But what would be the cost???

Isn't it safe to say that it isn't very realistic for the Sox to trade for a "star" player like Ichiro or Crawford because of the return cost?? Both trades would almost certainly have to include McCarthy. After lastnight (granted it was the AAAA version of the Indians), he showed why he should not be traded.

Signing a mid-tier free agent or maybe going after a mid-tier player in trade makes more sense to me (but what do I know...), like Juan Pierre or Dave Roberts. Both are veterans and "winners" so they'll fit right in the plan.

Foulke You
09-28-2006, 01:07 PM
I think you're taking a sensible idea and going way too far with it. The Yankees have a $200M payroll and the Red Sox are somewhere above $120M, IIRC. The White Sox are never going to be in that financial neighborhood.

There's a middle ground here. If they undervalue prospects, they're not going to be able to compete in a spending contest. If they overvalue them, they're going to have to rely on a lot of factors that historically are very fickle. The Sox are where they are in large measure because they've been able to mix players they brought up through their system with some higher-priced players acquired from outside. Trading away the whole farm system for one player well past his best years is a prescription for some pretty bad teams in years to come.

Well past his best years? I don't know about you but these numbers would look very nice in the White Sox lineup:

Ichiro's 2006 stats:
.319 avg, 8 hr, 48 rbi, .370 obp, 106 R, 44 stolen bases, 8 triples, 20 doubles, 219 hits

Also, keep in mind Ichiro is doing this in a pitcher's park on a bad Mariners team. He is only two years removed from his .372 avg/260+ hit season. You could expect his power numbers to rise playing 81 games at The Cell and his career also being energized in a pennant race which sources say is what he is desperately seeking. Even if he "only" duplicated his '06 numbers for us, the difference it could make for jumpstarting our offense could be huge.

'06 has left a bad taste in my mouth and the '07 World Series should be KW's top priority. The window to win championships for this core of players is open NOW. I think we need to pounce on it before it closes. I'm not saying we should be unreasonable and let the Mariners strip mine our 6 best prospects for Ichiro but if there is a reasonable trade out there, like say McCarthy/Sweeney/Cotts/mid level prospect for Ichiro, I'd pull the trigger in a second.

kitekrazy
09-28-2006, 01:08 PM
, like Juan Pierre or Dave Roberts. Both are veterans and "winners" so they'll fit right in the plan.

You were doing fine until this statement. I don't think I would want a player under the Dusty regime.

SouthSoxFan
09-28-2006, 01:19 PM
If we want to improve CF, forget stiffs like Pierre; let's make a run at Vernon Wells. If Toronto can't sign him long term, they'll be listening to deals. Would probably take 3 players, a starting pitcher (Contreras or McCarthy?), a low $ everyday starter (Anderson or Uribe?), and a reliever or prospect.

Flight #24
09-28-2006, 01:23 PM
If we want to improve CF, forget stiffs like Pierre; let's make a run at Vernon Wells. If Toronto can't sign him long term, they'll be listening to deals. Would probably take 3 players, a starting pitcher (Contreras or McCarthy?), a low $ everyday starter (Anderson or Uribe?), and a reliever or prospect.

If you could do a Garcia/Vazquez (or maybe even Jose if you think a rebound is likely from the other guys) + Uribe/Pods + Broadway/Owens type of deal for Wells, you jump on it. Vernon is a great OF, and he'd let you platoon Anderson/Fields in LF (with BA getting some starts in CF). Then you could potentially let Vern walk when he hits FA and have more seasoned guys ready in BA & Fields.

EDIT: But I doubt you'd get him for that package. More like McCarthy+Fields, which I'd be wary of doing.

Beautox
09-28-2006, 01:43 PM
What do you think the Phillies and Rangers would ask for those two? A case of beer and a cigar:rolleyes:

Please spare me the /rolley; in alot of my posts i actually provide links that bolster my opinion and they aren't xbox trades.

If the phillies dont make the post season they will be looking to dump Rollins for two reasons. 1.) they have Michael Bourn who can lead off for them and is quite the speedster & 2.) they have Pat Burrel with a full no trade clause and 13 & 14 mil left in '07 and '08 respectively, they will need to shed some "fat" from somewhere thats where rollins comes in, they like 70% of baseball need pitching. To get Jimmy you would deal Garcia + Uribe and mid level prospect most likely a LHP(Phillips, Logan) or someone of Cotts stature.

Jimmy Rollins ss
5 years/$40M (2006-2010), plus $8.5M 2011 club option

signed extension 6/05
$5M signing bonus
06:$4M, 07:$7M, 08:$7M, 09:$7.5M, 10:$7.5M, 11:$8.5M ($2M buyout)
1 year/$3.85M (2005), plus incentives

$0.175M in incentives (including $75,000 All-Star bonus)

avoided arbitration 1/05
1 year/$2.425M (2004), avoided arbitration 1/04
1 year/$0.45M (2003), re-signed 3/03
1 year/$0.365M (2002)
drafted 1996 (2-46)
agent: Dan Lozano
ML service: 5.015As for Michael Young, Tom Hicks called out Young for costing the rangers this season and not being "mentally tough". To acquire Young you would have to give either Garland or Jose + Uribe and send a little bit of money their way with Young and a midlevel pitching spec coming back our way. Texas needs another top tier rotation arm to support Millwood, JG is a GB pitcher(helps alot in Arlington with the home run porchs) and Jose can be flat out filthy when hes healthy. Also the rangers have SS Arias(who they acquired in the a-rod trade) who should be ready by mid '07. Uribe provides a stop gab at the very least you know what your going to get 15-20HR 70+ RBI GG defense, i think both Arlington and texas's hitting instructor Rudy Jaramillo can help Uribe alot. Uribe has upside if he doesn't pan out in '07 your not left holding the bag (.3mil buy out) and if he does you trade him for something. Lastly this is a very weak FA class this offseason and the rangers have 2-3 pitchers leaving via FA, they will need help.

Michael Young inf
4 years/$10.5M (2004-07), plus $4M 2008 club option

04:$1M, 05:$2.5M, 06:$3M, 07:$3.5M, 08:$4M club option (may increase to $5M) ($0.5M buyout)
signed extension 4/04
1 year/$0.45M (2004) 3 /04
1 year/$0.415M (2003) 2/03
1 year/$0.25M (2002)
agent: Dan Lozano
ML service: 4.134

Beautox
09-28-2006, 01:48 PM
The only problem is that D-Rays have never been the type of team to go after Garcia, Vazquez or Buehrle in trades because they can't afford them.

Their only interest would be in McCarthy or Broadway, MAYBE Garland.

But weakening our rotation by dealing Brandon or Jon for Crawford doesn't make much sense, as we all agree that the biggest need we have is solid starting pitching and a better bullpen.

If you can package some of our position prospects with Broadway, then it's worth considering, but it's going to take more than Pods/Owens + Broadway for Crawford. Maybe that's enough for Baldelli, but I'm not even sure about that.

People, i know the D-Rays wouldn't want a Garcia/Vazquez anyone on this rotation sans McCarthy. i was saying Deal one to two of our starters to get the peices to aquire Crawford.

churlish
09-28-2006, 01:55 PM
You were doing fine until this statement. I don't think I would want a player under the Dusty regime.

Right. Because a player like Zambrano wouldn't upgrade the starting rotation. :rolleyes:

soxfan13
09-28-2006, 02:13 PM
Please spare me the /rolley; in alot of my posts i actually provide links that bolster my opinion and they aren't xbox trades.

If the phillies dont make the post season they will be looking to dump Rollins for two reasons. 1.) they have Michael Bourn who can lead off for them and is quite the speedster & 2.) they have Pat Burrel with a full no trade clause and 13 & 14 mil left in '07 and '08 respectively, they will need to shed some "fat" from somewhere thats where rollins comes in, they like 70% of baseball need pitching. To get Jimmy you would deal Garcia + Uribe and mid level prospect most likely a LHP(Phillips, Logan) or someone of Cotts stature.

Jimmy Rollins ss
5 years/$40M (2006-2010), plus $8.5M 2011 club option

signed extension 6/05
$5M signing bonus
06:$4M, 07:$7M, 08:$7M, 09:$7.5M, 10:$7.5M, 11:$8.5M ($2M buyout)
1 year/$3.85M (2005), plus incentives
$0.175M in incentives (including $75,000 All-Star bonus)
avoided arbitration 1/05
1 year/$2.425M (2004), avoided arbitration 1/04
1 year/$0.45M (2003), re-signed 3/03
1 year/$0.365M (2002)
drafted 1996 (2-46)
agent: Dan Lozano
ML service: 5.015As for Michael Young, Tom Hicks called out Young for costing the rangers this season and not being "mentally tough". To acquire Young you would have to give either Garland or Jose + Uribe and send a little bit of money their way with Young and a midlevel pitching spec coming back our way. Texas needs another top tier rotation arm to support Millwood, JG is a GB pitcher(helps alot in Arlington with the home run porchs) and Jose can be flat out filthy when hes healthy. Also the rangers have SS Arias(who they acquired in the a-rod trade) who should be ready by mid '07. Uribe provides a stop gab at the very least you know what your going to get 15-20HR 70+ RBI GG defense, i think both Arlington and texas's hitting instructor Rudy Jaramillo can help Uribe alot. Uribe has upside if he doesn't pan out in '07 your not left holding the bag (.3mil buy out) and if he does you trade him for something. Lastly this is a very weak FA class this offseason and the rangers have 2-3 pitchers leaving via FA, they will need help.

Michael Young inf
4 years/$10.5M (2004-07), plus $4M 2008 club option

04:$1M, 05:$2.5M, 06:$3M, 07:$3.5M, 08:$4M club option (may increase to $5M) ($0.5M buyout)
signed extension 4/04
1 year/$0.45M (2004) 3 /04
1 year/$0.415M (2003) 2/03
1 year/$0.25M (2002)
agent: Dan Lozano
ML service: 4.134


so like I said why not go for tejada then, its pretty much what you said the orioles would be asking proven arm, Uribe, and prospect

caulfield12
09-28-2006, 02:18 PM
so like I said why not go for tejada then, its pretty much what you said the orioles would be asking proven arm, Uribe, and prospect

Maybe KW's operating under the radar again, but everything points to the White Sox NOT being interested in Tejada this offseason, of course, no "quotable" sources...just apparent White Sox "insiders."

soxfan13
09-28-2006, 02:22 PM
Maybe KW's operating under the radar again, but everything points to the White Sox NOT being interested in Tejada this offseason, of course, no "quotable" sources...just apparent White Sox "insiders."

Oh I know. Beautox pooh poohed some guy cuz he said lets get Tejada. Beautox said it would cost to much that the Sox should rather go for Rollins or Young and I said the Phillies and Rangers would ask for pretty much the same hing that the Orioles would.:smile:

caulfield12
09-28-2006, 02:30 PM
Oh I know. Beautox pooh poohed some guy cuz he said lets get Tejada. Beautox said it would cost to much that the Sox should rather go for Rollins or Young and I said the Phillies and Rangers would ask for pretty much the same hing that the Orioles would.:smile:

Tejada>Young>Rollins

Only because Rollins is getting more and more expensive each year and he's not QUITE the leadoff hitter we need. He has some of the components, stolen bases...but he's never been quite patient enough to be a .350 OBP guy either.

I wouldn't complain if we were to get any of these guys...don't get me wrong.

And I don't automatically think A-Rod or Tejada will magically make our offense "bulletproof," because that puts even more pressure on Fields (assuming you'd have to trade Crede to get either player), LF, CF and Iguchi to have more productive at-bats in 2007.

Ozzie has talked repeatedly about moving Iguchi to 7, so we really need improvement from LF, Fields, Anderson/Sweeney/Owens/FA (CF) and AJ Pierzynski.

Of course, that's NOT news to anyone.

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2006, 02:44 PM
Well past his best years? I don't know about you but these numbers would look very nice in the White Sox lineup:

Ichiro's 2006 stats:
.319 avg, 8 hr, 48 rbi, .370 obp, 106 R, 44 stolen bases, 8 triples, 20 doubles, 219 hitsHow good would his 2005 numbers look in the White Sox lineup? Or more to the point, how much would you give up if that was what you were going to get?

assrevolution
09-28-2006, 02:56 PM
If I have to read another post about trading pitching for hitting I think I'll start being a Cub fan. How can people have such short memories about what it takes to win at the major league level?? PITCHING!!! If there aren't any free agent pitchers available to help our ballclub then we shouldn't be getting rid of ANY of the starters. If the coaching staff determines they are fundamentally sound then we have to deal with them and appreciate the talent they bring to the ballclub. If they're 'broken' then it's time to trade/release. Before last night's game, I think we were giving up an average of 8-9 runs a game for the last 2 weeks. Would Tejada or Roberts drive in or steal 8 a game? NO!!!

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2006, 03:00 PM
If I have to read another post about trading pitching for hitting I think I'll start being a Cub fan. How can people have such short memories about what it takes to win at the major league level?? PITCHING!!! If there aren't any free agent pitchers available to help our ballclub then we shouldn't be getting rid of ANY of the starters. If the coaching staff determines they are fundamentally sound then we have to deal with them and appreciate the talent they bring to the ballclub. If they're 'broken' then it's time to trade/release. Before last night's game, I think we were giving up an average of 8-9 runs a game for the last 2 weeks. Would Tejada or Roberts drive in or steal 8 a game? NO!!!McCarthy will join the rotation next year and one of the current starters will be traded. It's essentially a done deal. The only question is, who?

INSox56
09-28-2006, 03:04 PM
If I have to read another post about trading pitching for hitting I think I'll start being a Cub fan. How can people have such short memories about what it takes to win at the major league level?? PITCHING!!! If there aren't any free agent pitchers available to help our ballclub then we shouldn't be getting rid of ANY of the starters. If the coaching staff determines they are fundamentally sound then we have to deal with them and appreciate the talent they bring to the ballclub. If they're 'broken' then it's time to trade/release. Before last night's game, I think we were giving up an average of 8-9 runs a game for the last 2 weeks. Would Tejada or Roberts drive in or steal 8 a game? NO!!!

They/we're only talking about ridding ourselves of pitching because everyone knows or thinks brandon will get into the rotation next year...which means.....tadaaaa...you replace that lost pitcher with something else we need, which is a replacement for either/both Uribe or Pods.

Really good points about TX needing pitching, I didn't know they were losing a few pitchers already. That'd be nice. Despite previous want of Tejada, I think Kenny may go after Young more for a couple reasons. 1)Ozzie obviously loves loves loves Young and will put his .02 in to get him I'd imagine. 2) Tejada costs us more than Young would, I don't think there's a doubt about that, not from what we're offering.

assrevolution
09-28-2006, 03:07 PM
So If Brandon is a starter's replacement then who replaces Brandon? We're not too deep out there right now. I don't care if starters or relievers come our way through free agency as long as we rope them in somehow.

I'm just tired of getting excited over a new bat coming into town just to see us continue to lose games. It's going to be the 90's all over again. and yes, I'm aware of how many games we really did win in the 90's. I'm referring to playoff wins.

INSox56
09-28-2006, 03:17 PM
So If Brandon is a starter's replacement then who replaces Brandon? We're not too deep out there right now. I don't care if starters or relievers come our way through free agency as long as we rope them in somehow.

I'm just tired of getting excited over a new bat coming into town just to see us continue to lose games. It's going to be the 90's all over again. and yes, I'm aware of how many games we really did win in the 90's. I'm referring to playoff wins.

If I remember right there are a TON of relievers on the FA market this year, I'm sure we could find a way to get two at least...so why would we be trading Brandon...?

assrevolution
09-28-2006, 03:22 PM
If I remember right there are a TON of relievers on the FA market this year, I'm sure we could find a way to get two at least...so why would we be trading Brandon...?


No, I didn't mean we'd be trading Brandon, just who would replace him in the bullpen if he was a starter. I hope you're right and we do land the cream of the crop in relief. The fact that we've been trying to the last few years makes me think it's possible.

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2006, 03:22 PM
They/we're only talking about ridding ourselves of pitching because everyone knows or thinks brandon will get into the rotation next year...which means.....tadaaaa...you replace that lost pitcher with something else we need, which is a replacement for either/both Uribe or Pods.

Really good points about TX needing pitching, I didn't know they were losing a few pitchers already. That'd be nice. Despite previous want of Tejada, I think Kenny may go after Young more for a couple reasons. 1)Ozzie obviously loves loves loves Young and will put his .02 in to get him I'd imagine. 2) Tejada costs us more than Young would, I don't think there's a doubt about that, not from what we're offering.There are two guys who seem to be on Kenny's radar:

Dave Roberts
Pros: Pretty consistent hitter. OBP not as high as you'd like for a leadoff hitter, but may be the best they can get. Can steal 30-40 bases, maybe more.
Cons: How well will those numbers translate to the AL? Will be 35 next year. How will those legs hold up?
Contract status: FA for first time. Made only $2.25M in 2006

Michael Young
Pros: Somewhat better hitter than Roberts, but about the same OBP. Plays solid defense at a key defensive position.
Cons: Not a base stealer. Probably better suited to be a #2 hitter, which leaves the leadoff hitter unsolved.
Contract status: Signed through 2007 at a bargain $3.5M. Will be FA after 2007.

INSox56
09-28-2006, 03:33 PM
There are two guys who seem to be on Kenny's radar:

Dave Roberts
Pros: Pretty consistent hitter. OBP not as high as you'd like for a leadoff hitter, but may be the best they can get. Can steal 30-40 bases, maybe more.
Cons: How well will those numbers translate to the AL? Will be 35 next year. How will those legs hold up?
Contract status: FA for first time. Made only $2.25M in 2006

Michael Young
Pros: Somewhat better hitter than Roberts, but about the same OBP. Plays solid defense at a key defensive position.
Cons: Not a base stealer. Probably better suited to be a #2 hitter, which leaves the leadoff hitter unsolved.
Contract status: Signed through 2007 at a bargain $3.5M. Will be FA after 2007.

To this I could say (and have been saying), trade for Young and find a way to grab Ryan Freel to hit leadoff. Granted it IS off of NL pitching, his obp (367) is good, though his avg is a bit off (271). After we give up pitching for Young though, what would that leave us to give a team for Freel, possibly Sweeney/Anderson + Fields as a backup for the aging Aurilia?

I'd be quite happy about a Freel, Young 1,2 and move Igu down in the middle. The only problem I could see with this is that Young hits into a lot of DPs...not good for a #2 guy. So possibly a combo of Young, Pierre or Freel, Young would work.

Domeshot17
09-28-2006, 03:34 PM
Tejada is going NO WHERE. He is already in Soriano's ear to play in Baltimore next year. The O's seem to have direction (dangerous lineup with Tejada Roberts Markakis(who is going to be AMAZING) Mora Ramon Hernandez). I think Tejada has grown up and taken the captain goes down with his ship path.

Rollins I see no reason for Philly to move him. They knew they were getting short on money and they took care of it by dealing Thome.

Young is the answer. Hicks is fed up with him, they are loaded with middle IF kids (Kinsler is actually a far superior defensive SS, and they have the likes of Arias, who looks to be a very solid prospect both offensively and defensively, waiting in the wings. on top of it all, Texas doesnt look to be able to afford to keep both Young and Texiera in the long run.

Ozzie loves him, you could tell that from the all star game, and here he would not be looked upon to be a leader and carry the team.

They need a front line starter, And might like Freddy. I am assuming Uribe goes in the deal if they want insurance for Arias.

So right now its Freddy and Uribe. The reason I think Owens or Sweeney gets it done is (a) we have a whole buncha OF prospects with no where to put them and (b) Texas is going to be looking for someone who is cheap, has a big upside, and can play center to replace Gary Matthews JR.

If you trade for young, you can sign a pierre or dave roberts to play left. The other option you have with Young is you can play one of the kids like Fields in left. However, I like Pierre or Roberts because you combine great speed and contact from those 2 with patience and OBP of young.

And for people who think you can trade for Young AND Crawford/Ichiro, we dont have that much in the arsenal without moving a major player like Crede Buehlre Jenks etc

And, just my input, say yes to Ryan Freel as a super sub, JUST SAY NO TO FREEL AS A LEAD OFF. HE DOES IT OFF THE CRAPTACULAR NL CENTRAL SP, AND IN THE BEST HITTERS BALLPARK IN BASEBALL

BadBobbyJenks
09-28-2006, 03:39 PM
No, his fellow players voted him as having one of the worst outfield arms in baseball.


yeah it would be a huge drop off from pods:rolleyes:


Yes put him in left and we dont have to trade anything and can upgrade somewhere else trading some pitching

Hitmen77
09-28-2006, 03:40 PM
Young is the answer. Hicks is fed up with him, they are loaded with middle IF kids (Kinsler is actually a far superior defensive SS, and they have the likes of Arias, who looks to be a very solid prospect both offensively and defensively, waiting in the wings. on top of it all, Texas doesnt look to be able to afford to keep both Young and Texiera in the long run.



I've seen this mentioned dozens of times on WSI - that the Rangers are "fed up" with Young and want to deal him. What did he do? If another team is fed up with him, is that a red flag for us?

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2006, 03:42 PM
Tejada is going NO WHERE. He is already in Soriano's ear to play in Baltimore next year. The O's seem to have direction (dangerous lineup with Tejada Roberts Markakis(who is going to be AMAZING) Mora Ramon Hernandez). I think Tejada has grown up and taken the captain goes down with his ship path.

Rollins I see no reason for Philly to move him. They knew they were getting short on money and they took care of it by dealing Thome.

Young is the answer. Hicks is fed up with him, they are loaded with middle IF kids (Kinsler is actually a far superior defensive SS, and they have the likes of Arias, who looks to be a very solid prospect both offensively and defensively, waiting in the wings. on top of it all, Texas doesnt look to be able to afford to keep both Young and Texiera in the long run.

Ozzie loves him, you could tell that from the all star game, and here he would not be looked upon to be a leader and carry the team.

They need a front line starter, And might like Freddy. I am assuming Uribe goes in the deal if they want insurance for Arias.

So right now its Freddy and Uribe. The reason I think Owens or Sweeney gets it done is (a) we have a whole buncha OF prospects with no where to put them and (b) Texas is going to be looking for someone who is cheap, has a big upside, and can play center to replace Gary Matthews JR.

If you trade for young, you can sign a pierre or dave roberts to play left. The other option you have with Young is you can play one of the kids like Fields in left. However, I like Pierre or Roberts because you combine great speed and contact from those 2 with patience and OBP of young.

And for people who think you can trade for Young AND Crawford/Ichiro, we dont have that much in the arsenal without moving a major player like Crede Buehlre Jenks etc

And, just my input, say yes to Ryan Freel as a super sub, JUST SAY NO TO FREEL AS A LEAD OFF. HE DOES IT OFF THE CRAPTACULAR NL CENTRAL SP, AND IN THE BEST HITTERS BALLPARK IN BASEBALLYou don't like Freel but you love Pierre??? :?::?:

INSox56
09-28-2006, 03:47 PM
You don't like Freel but you love Pierre??? :?::?:

Don't forget Freel's D is twice as good as Pierre's wonderful D.

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2006, 03:54 PM
Don't forget Freel's D is twice as good as Pierre's wonderful D.I have the same concerns about translating Freel's numbers against crappy NLC pitching to what appears to be the toughest pitching division in MLB, but Pierre played in the same division and his OBP is 30 pts lower. Pierre is a downgrade from Podsednik. Blech.

caulfield12
09-28-2006, 04:11 PM
I've seen this mentioned dozens of times on WSI - that the Rangers are "fed up" with Young and want to deal him. What did he do? If another team is fed up with him, is that a red flag for us?

Same charges levelled against Ordonez, Dye, Konerko, etc.

That they aren't vocal, rah-rah leaders....that Young is "the franchise" guy in Texas for much of MLB (like a Jeter) but he's not charismatic enough. He leads by example, etc.

That would be fine in our clubhouse...as long as there are enough AJ's and Everetts. I think this year they were missing that player that kicked them in the A-S when their backs were against the wall. It's not in the personality of Crede, Konerko, Dye or Thome to start laying into their teammates, or Buehrle even.

INSox56
09-28-2006, 04:17 PM
I have the same concerns about translating Freel's numbers against crappy NLC pitching to what appears to be the toughest pitching division in MLB, but Pierre played in the same division and his OBP is 30 pts lower. Pierre is a downgrade from Podsednik. Blech.

I can almost agree to the downgrade statement. And looking at it, Freel hits lefties better than righties, which would help us out a bit, glad I'm not Kenny

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2006, 04:31 PM
I can almost agree to the downgrade statement. And looking at it, Freel hits lefties better than righties, which would help us out a bit, glad I'm not KennyThat's a good point. It sure wouldn't hurt them any if they could find someone who could hit a soft-tossing lefty.

Domeshot17
09-28-2006, 06:11 PM
I love Freels D,don't get me wrong. I would LOVE him as a super sub guy like he is with the Reds.

Actually, I made a mistake. I thought this was kind of a break out year for Freel. For whatever reason I really thought he was like a .240 hitter before this.

I guess my point to Pierre over Freel is if you are going to get a high OBP guy like Young, then having a high contact guy like Pierre would compliment it perfectly. Freel wouldnt be bad, I just have a feeling he would really struggle in the AL, and I dont think the same will be for Pierre.

I also like that Pierre comes for salary, where Freel would cost us 2 solid players (i dont want to deal Josh Fields and Rogowski in order to get him)

caulfield12
09-28-2006, 06:18 PM
I love Freels D,don't get me wrong. I would LOVE him as a super sub guy like he is with the Reds.

Actually, I made a mistake. I thought this was kind of a break out year for Freel. For whatever reason I really thought he was like a .240 hitter before this.

I guess my point to Pierre over Freel is if you are going to get a high OBP guy like Young, then having a high contact guy like Pierre would compliment it perfectly. Freel wouldnt be bad, I just have a feeling he would really struggle in the AL, and I dont think the same will be for Pierre.

I also like that Pierre comes for salary, where Freel would cost us 2 solid players (i dont want to deal Josh Fields and Rogowski in order to get him)


Has anyone noticed how utterly dominant Francisco Cordero has been as a closer in the NL?

This is starting to look like a seller's market with Vazquez and Garcia.

DickAllen72
09-28-2006, 08:45 PM
That would be fine in our clubhouse...as long as there are enough AJ's and Everetts. I think this year they were missing that player that kicked them in the A-S when their backs were against the wall. It's not in the personality of Crede, Konerko, Dye or Thome to start laying into their teammates, or Buehrle even.

Correct.

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2006, 08:52 PM
Has anyone noticed how utterly dominant Francisco Cordero has been as a closer in the NL?

This is starting to look like a seller's market with Vazquez and Garcia.Mediocre FA pitchers routinely fetch $10-12M contracts in the off-season. It's ALWAYS a seller's market for decent starting pitching.

caulfield12
09-28-2006, 09:13 PM
Mediocre FA pitchers routinely fetch $10-12M contracts in the off-season. It's ALWAYS a seller's market for decent starting pitching.

Except last year, unless we're willing to admit we gave up too much in order to dump El Duque?

I guess we'll never know if there were ever any offers for El Duque that didn't involve us subsidizing his contract...with talent (Young). Same thing we did in the Thome deal to get cash back (Gio).

We essentially sold our two best prospects for $25 million in cash flow. A good deal, we'll just have to wait and see...

shoelessshaun27!
09-28-2006, 09:17 PM
i would want juan because usaully when the cubs loose a player he becomes better on his next team, and he is whitesox material. He is definately a grinder ball player. i think Ozzie would love to have juan because as we all know ozzie heavely dislikes brian anderson

SouthSoxFan
09-28-2006, 09:25 PM
The Rangers got fleeced last year when they dealt Soriano. They aren't going to give up Michael Young for our middle of the rotation starters. I can't see them giving him up for anything but an all-star pitcher in his prime. The idea that they are upset with him is overblown.

Too bad though, he'd be a great addition. Plus, he could help us land V. Wells in 2008 since they are apparently best friends.

Ol' No. 2
09-28-2006, 09:30 PM
The Rangers got fleeced last year when they dealt Soriano. They aren't going to give up Michael Young for our middle of the rotation starters. I can't see them giving him up for anything but an all-star pitcher in his prime. The idea that they are upset with him is overblown.

Too bad though, he'd be a great addition. Plus, he could help us land V. Wells in 2008 since they are apparently best friends.Good starting pitching is the rarest and most valuable of all baseball commodities. No one, but NO ONE, is going to trade an all-star pitcher in his prime for a SS unless he's a dead lock hall-of-famer.

JB98
09-28-2006, 10:03 PM
i would want juan because usaully when the cubs loose a player he becomes better on his next team, and he is whitesox material. He is definately a grinder ball player. i think Ozzie would love to have juan because as we all know ozzie heavely dislikes brian anderson

I'm not convinced Ozzie dislikes BA. And if Pierre were to come to the Sox, he would replace Pods, not BA.

drewcifer
09-28-2006, 10:05 PM
In today's Sun-Times, Juan Pierre makes it perfectly clear unless the cubs keep Baker [no chance] he's moving on and would "love to play for Ozzie Guillen." His OBS is weak but he leads the NL in hits and has 56 stolen bases.

Anyone want Juan Pierre in LF or CF for your 2007 Chicago White Sox?


NO!!!!!!!!

Beautox
09-28-2006, 10:44 PM
so like I said why not go for tejada then, its pretty much what you said the orioles would be asking proven arm, Uribe, and prospect

We don't need Tejada because 1.) he is older than both Young and Rollins 2.) we already have enough 3-5 hitters, 3.) he is more expensivie than both Rollins and Young (contract wise)

Tejada>Young>Rollins

Only because Rollins is getting more and more expensive each year and he's not QUITE the leadoff hitter we need. He has some of the components, stolen bases...but he's never been quite patient enough to be a .350 OBP guy either.

I wouldn't complain if we were to get any of these guys...don't get me wrong.

Rollins OBP is so so, but the fact that he steals at a sucessful rate and knock himself in 20-25 times a year negates his so so OBP plus hes fast and a switch hitter and plays solid D at SS.

Beautox
09-28-2006, 10:48 PM
So If Brandon is a starter's replacement then who replaces Brandon? We're not too deep out there right now. I don't care if starters or relievers come our way through free agency as long as we rope them in somehow.

I'm just tired of getting excited over a new bat coming into town just to see us continue to lose games. It's going to be the 90's all over again. and yes, I'm aware of how many games we really did win in the 90's. I'm referring to playoff wins.

We have 3 ML ready talents by '07, Phillips, Haeger and Broadway, thats plenty of back up.

drewcifer
09-28-2006, 11:02 PM
We have 3 ML ready talents by '07, Phillips, Haeger and Broadway, thats plenty of back up.

Agreed. But I admit I've never seen Lance in person.... Good on paper.

caulfield12
09-28-2006, 11:10 PM
We have 3 ML ready talents by '07, Phillips, Haeger and Broadway, thats plenty of back up.


Ummm...just like we had seemingly 15 replacements available for Cotts?

Just because they exist doesn't mean they can get the job done any better than Wright, Porzio, Josh Stewart, Adkins, Felix Diaz and Sean Lowe.

Broadway should be "okay," but I wouldn't count on him as a .500 pitcher his first couple of seasons. He's more like Garland crossed with Guerrier.

Beautox
09-29-2006, 12:01 AM
Ummm...just like we had seemingly 15 replacements available for Cotts?

Just because they exist doesn't mean they can get the job done any better than Wright, Porzio, Josh Stewart, Adkins, Felix Diaz and Sean Lowe.

Broadway should be "okay," but I wouldn't count on him as a .500 pitcher his first couple of seasons. He's more like Garland crossed with Guerrier.

First off we do have one person Cotts has basicly gift wraped the job to, unfounately Boone has shot himself in his texas sized foot every time, 42.2IP with 57SO and only 12BB @ AAA as their closer and only 21 years old is impressive, he still has a future with this organzation and MLB as a whole.

Who said Broadway or Phillips has a spot in the rotation? i didn't, i said back up. Broadway is going to be more than just a 3-5 starter, he is a pitcher not a thrower.

his last start in AAA that got called because of rain he went 6IP while SO 11, that curve he features is sick!, and hes only the third person from his draft class to reach AAA or higher, Sickels thinks highly of him and says he should be ready by mid '07.

caulfield12
09-29-2006, 05:49 AM
First off we do have one person Cotts has basicly gift wraped the job to, unfounately Boone has shot himself in his texas sized foot every time, 42.2IP with 57SO and only 12BB @ AAA as their closer and only 21 years old is impressive, he still has a future with this organzation and MLB as a whole.

Who said Broadway or Phillips has a spot in the rotation? i didn't, i said back up. Broadway is going to be more than just a 3-5 starter, he is a pitcher not a thrower.

his last start in AAA that got called because of rain he went 6IP while SO 11, that curve he features is sick!, and hes only the third person from his draft class to reach AAA or higher, Sickels thinks highly of him and says he should be ready by mid '07.


Unfortunately for KW, Garza was drafted after Broadway and has had even more of an impact (adversely, I would say) towards our playoff chances this year than Broadway.

SouthSoxFan
09-29-2006, 10:50 AM
Good starting pitching is the rarest and most valuable of all baseball commodities. No one, but NO ONE, is going to trade an all-star pitcher in his prime for a SS unless he's a dead lock hall-of-famer.

Exactly. Which is why Young ain't leavin' the Rangers.

Flight #24
09-29-2006, 10:55 AM
Exactly. Which is why Young ain't leavin' the Rangers.

Because Young is a dead-lock HOFer?:?:

Or because KW wouldn't do that deal (something I think is incorrect)?

Ol' No. 2
09-29-2006, 11:01 AM
Exactly. Which is why Young ain't leavin' the Rangers.I wouldn't say that. I think a package of Garcia and one of the Sox AAA OF prospects might do it. Texas has some good young middle infielders ready to step up, so if they can get value back for Young, they'll do it. The real question is, will another team offer a better package? Look around to see who needs a SS and has more to offer than the Sox. It's a pretty short list.

caulfield12
09-29-2006, 11:20 AM
I wouldn't say that. I think a package of Garcia and one of the Sox AAA OF prospects might do it. Texas has some good young middle infielders ready to step up, so if they can get value back for Young, they'll do it. The real question is, will another team offer a better package? Look around to see who needs a SS and has more to offer than the Sox. It's a pretty short list.

Astros (maybe)
Royals (but they don't make that move until closer to contending)
D-Rays
Boston ?
Reds
Cardinals ?

Probably missing a couple.

Ol' No. 2
09-29-2006, 12:30 PM
Astros (maybe)
Royals (but they don't make that move until closer to contending)
D-Rays
Boston ?
Reds
Cardinals ?

Probably missing a couple.I think the Cards are happy with Eckstein, and he's signed through 2007. And the Reds have Royce Clayton, so they're set.

Who among those teams is in a position to offer a starting pitcher better than Freddy Garcia?

INSox56
09-29-2006, 12:35 PM
I think the Cards are happy with Eckstein, and he's signed through 2007. And the Reds have Royce Clayton, so they're set.

Who among those teams is in a position to offer a starting pitcher better than Freddy Garcia?


Exactly...I think we have a great shot. Don't forget the possibility of having to replace Matthews if they can't re-sign him.

Beautox
09-29-2006, 02:15 PM
Unfortunately for KW, Garza was drafted after Broadway and has had even more of an impact (adversely, I would say) towards our playoff chances this year than Broadway.
yes im well aware of this, but what does that have to do with my quote?

we have plenty of back up at the milb level.

caulfield12
09-29-2006, 02:25 PM
yes im well aware of this, but what does that have to do with my quote?

we have plenty of back up at the milb level.
Do you realistically think we could compete next season against the Twins, Tigers and Indians with McCarthy AND Haeger/Broadway/Phillips/Tracey as our fourth and fifth starters? I would say our chances of making the playoffs would be, at best, 25% (if one of our presumably four starters went down to injury for a sustained period of time).

Flight #24
09-29-2006, 02:29 PM
Astros (maybe) - Which vet, top-of-the-rotation pitcher do they have to give up? They'll potentially lose Clemens as it is.
Royals - Can't see it. They have prospects, but few proven MLB guys, especially pitchers
D-Rays - Aren't going to trade pitchers, but have a ton of prospects to offer
Boston - Could offer some young pitching, but Lester's out, Papelbon's not going anywhere, and that leaves....Clement? Beckett? Unlikely
Reds - Could offer an Arroyo, but they're not exactly stocked with pitching
Cardinals - another pitching-poor team and one with a solid SS. not young caliber, but decent.

Basically, it'll come down to IMO whether the Rangers want proven MLB pitching or more prospects. If they want a proven MLB starter, I think the Sox are one of the few teams that have one "to spare" (to the extent you can ever have that). But they'll ahve to make a serious call on whether or not they want a vet with a year left on his deal or 1-2 prospects with more question marks but long/cheap careers ahead of them.

But I'd do Garcia+Uribe+a prospect not named Anderson/Fields/McCarthy in a heartbeat. And if it takes giving up say Sweeney and getting a Diamond/Danks in return, I'd do that too. (I like Fields over Sweeney as an impact player).

Ol' No. 2
09-29-2006, 02:34 PM
Astros (maybe) - Which vet, top-of-the-rotation pitcher do they have to give up? They'll potentially lose Clemens as it is.
Royals - Can't see it. They have prospects, but few proven MLB guys, especially pitchers
D-Rays - Aren't going to trade pitchers, but have a ton of prospects to offer
Boston - Could offer some young pitching, but Lester's out, Papelbon's not going anywhere, and that leaves....Clement? Beckett? Unlikely
Reds - Could offer an Arroyo, but they're not exactly stocked with pitching
Cardinals - another pitching-poor team and one with a solid SS. not young caliber, but decent.

Basically, it'll come down to IMO whether the Rangers want proven MLB pitching or more prospects. If they want a proven MLB starter, I think the Sox are one of the few teams that have one "to spare" (to the extent you can ever have that). But they'll ahve to make a serious call on whether or not they want a vet with a year left on his deal or 1-2 prospects with more question marks but long/cheap careers ahead of them.

But I'd do Garcia+Uribe+a prospect not named Anderson/Fields/McCarthy in a heartbeat. And if it takes giving up say Sweeney and getting a Diamond/Danks in return, I'd do that too. (I like Fields over Sweeney as an impact player).I don't see why they'd want Uribe. The reason Young is tradeable at all is because they have some good young middle infielders that are ready. They have an obvious hole in CF if they don't re-sign Matthews.

Maybe we can re-acquire Rowand and trade him to Texas.:redneck

caulfield12
09-29-2006, 02:41 PM
I don't see why they'd want Uribe. The reason Young is tradeable at all is because they have some good young middle infielders that are ready. They have an obvious hole in CF if they don't re-sign Matthews.

Maybe we can re-acquire Rowand and trade him to Texas.:redneck

Therein lies the trick in getting rid of Uribe...who wants him (as well)?

The Rangers might lose Padilla and Eaton, Rheinecker/Koronka and some of their young pitchers are not reliable...Loe, Volzquez, it's a mess. They released Wasdin.

Basically, it's Millwood and a prayer. Padilla is on the verge of 15 wins...not that the White Sox should acquire The Chief!!!

Flight #24
09-29-2006, 02:55 PM
I don't see why they'd want Uribe. The reason Young is tradeable at all is because they have some good young middle infielders that are ready. They have an obvious hole in CF if they don't re-sign Matthews.

Maybe we can re-acquire Rowand and trade him to Texas.:redneck

OK, Podsednik. He's got CF experience......

Then flip Uribe to someone for a relief arm. Or if the Giants are looking to get younger, to them for Vizquel.

Ol' No. 2
09-29-2006, 02:59 PM
Therein lies the trick in getting rid of Uribe...who wants him (as well)?

The Rangers might lose Padilla and Eaton, Rheinecker/Koronka and some of their young pitchers are not reliable...Loe, Volzquez, it's a mess. They released Wasdin.

Basically, it's Millwood and a prayer. Padilla is on the verge of 15 wins...not that the White Sox should acquire The Chief!!!There are a lot of teams for whom Uribe would be an upgrade over what they've got. Start with the list you posted earlier. "Getting rid" of him won't be a problem. If the Sox can send Texas a starter and a CF, they'd be beside themselves with joy.

How about this: Garcia and Anderson for Young. Sign Dave Roberts and put Ryan Sweeney in CF.

Flame away, BA fans!!!:cower::duck:

Hitmen77
09-29-2006, 03:17 PM
Is there a link to any article anywhere that even suggests that Young might be on the trading block? I'm aware of comments made by the Rangers owner about his leadership - but does that alone suggest that Texas will dump an all-star SS who doesn't have a high salary?

Ol' No. 2
09-29-2006, 03:19 PM
Is there a link to any article anywhere that even suggests that Young might be on the trading block? I'm aware of comments made by the Rangers owner about his leadership - but does that alone suggest that Texas will dump an all-star SS who doesn't have a high salary?Nobody is suggesting they're going to "dump" him. But they have some good young middle infielders on the way up, so they could trade him for the starting pitching they desperately need. Also, he's a FA after 2007, so he won't be cheap for long.

caulfield12
09-29-2006, 03:21 PM
There are a lot of teams for whom Uribe would be an upgrade over what they've got. Start with the list you posted earlier. "Getting rid" of him won't be a problem. If the Sox can send Texas a starter and a CF, they'd be beside themselves with joy.

How about this: Garcia and Anderson for Young. Sign Dave Roberts and put Ryan Sweeney in CF.

Flame away, BA fans!!!:cower::duck:

I think I would rather have Jason Tyner than Roberts. Half-teal.

Sweeney in CF, no way. We have to keep the defense together, unless Anderson proves he can't change and adapt offensively, at least a little.

What I don't understand is why Jon Daniels gave up on Laynce Nix so quickly. Apparently, Showalter didn't see "eye to eye" with Mench...can't remember the other little guy they had in CF with the glasses. He seemed promising as well. Ramon Nivar.

Also, Christenson (Ryan), Eric Ludwick, Calvin Murray...I can't remember the hot prospect they had in the OF who broke his leg and was never the same again. I think he played RF and was favored to win ROY that season in ST.

Flight #24
09-29-2006, 03:39 PM
There are a lot of teams for whom Uribe would be an upgrade over what they've got. Start with the list you posted earlier. "Getting rid" of him won't be a problem. If the Sox can send Texas a starter and a CF, they'd be beside themselves with joy.

How about this: Garcia and Anderson for Young. Sign Dave Roberts and put Ryan Sweeney in CF.

Flame away, BA fans!!!:cower::duck:

Personally, I'm not as impressed with Sweeney's potential as I am Fields. He can't play CF, but his AAA record seems to be more of an impact type bat than Sweeney, who looks like he could hit for a solid avg, but with little power.

I know he's young, but he hasn't done it yet. Plus, there's little to no debate that Sweeney's a defensive downgrade from Anderson. And you'd be back in the situation of a rookie hitter, instead of sticking with a guy in BA who's got a year of experience and one in which he generally improved as the year went on.

Sweeney in '07 < BA in '07 IMO defensively and offensively. I'd rather send Sweeney & Garcia for Young.

Hitmen77
09-29-2006, 03:48 PM
Nobody is suggesting they're going to "dump" him. But they have some good young middle infielders on the way up, so they could trade him for the starting pitching they desperately need. Also, he's a FA after 2007, so he won't be cheap for long.

Thanks. That's the info I'm looking for.

Is Young a suitable leadoff hitter?

Ol' No. 2
09-29-2006, 04:00 PM
Personally, I'm not as impressed with Sweeney's potential as I am Fields. He can't play CF, but his AAA record seems to be more of an impact type bat than Sweeney, who looks like he could hit for a solid avg, but with little power.

I know he's young, but he hasn't done it yet. Plus, there's little to no debate that Sweeney's a defensive downgrade from Anderson. And you'd be back in the situation of a rookie hitter, instead of sticking with a guy in BA who's got a year of experience and one in which he generally improved as the year went on.

Sweeney in '07 < BA in '07 IMO defensively and offensively. I'd rather send Sweeney & Garcia for Young.I like Fields better, too, but he doesn't play CF, so he's kind of irrelevant unless you could also get an experiened CF to handle the leadoff duties. I'm working on the presumption that the Rangers will have two pressing needs for 2007: starting pitching and a CF. To anyone who can solve both problems, they'll be glad to give up Young. I don't think Sweeney would do it for them.

Defensively, you'd have to give the edge to Anderson over Sweeney, but it's not as if Sweeney is Rob Mackowiak, either. Offensively, I think Sweeney is a better bet in 2007, and significantly better long term. Overall, I'd give a small edge to Sweeney.

Hitmen77: Young is probably better suited to hit second. His OBP is just average for a leadoff hitter, but he's not a threat to steal. Plus, he'll give you 15-20 HR and 40-50 doubles a year.

Flight #24
09-29-2006, 04:49 PM
I like Fields better, too, but he doesn't play CF, so he's kind of irrelevant unless you could also get an experiened CF to handle the leadoff duties. I'm working on the presumption that the Rangers will have two pressing needs for 2007: starting pitching and a CF. To anyone who can solve both problems, they'll be glad to give up Young. I don't think Sweeney would do it for them.

Defensively, you'd have to give the edge to Anderson over Sweeney, but it's not as if Sweeney is Rob Mackowiak, either. Offensively, I think Sweeney is a better bet in 2007, and significantly better long term. Overall, I'd give a small edge to Sweeney.

Hitmen77: Young is probably better suited to hit second. His OBP is just average for a leadoff hitter, but he's not a threat to steal. Plus, he'll give you 15-20 HR and 40-50 doubles a year.

I was operating under the assumption that you had Roberts & Sweeney in the OF and that Fields (LF) & Roberts (CF) would be better (or really IMO- Fields & BA).

BA's minor league history and his major league improvement make me a lot more confident in him than Sweeney for 2007. I'd expect Sweeney to have a BA-06 like year with a lot of ups & downs, whereas I expect BA to put up something a lot closer to his 2d half for the full year 07.

Ol' No. 2
09-29-2006, 04:57 PM
I was operating under the assumption that you had Roberts & Sweeney in the OF and that Fields (LF) & Roberts (CF) would be better (or really IMO- Fields & BA).

BA's minor league history and his major league improvement make me a lot more confident in him than Sweeney for 2007. I'd expect Sweeney to have a BA-06 like year with a lot of ups & downs, whereas I expect BA to put up something a lot closer to his 2d half for the full year 07.Roberts has mostly played LF for the Pads, no? Is he better in CF than Sweeney would be? If he can handle CF, I'd have no problem with him there and Fields in LF. There's a lot to like with Sweeney, and I think he's got a great shot at winning a roster spot next spring, depending on what moves are made in the off-season. But Fields-BA-Dye leaves them without a leadoff hitter, as I think Young is better suited to hit 2nd.

I'd feel a lot better about BA's chances for next year if he hadn't regressed the last month or so, but lately he's looked an awful lot like the April-June version. Two good months and four bad ones don't fill me with confidence.

Frater Perdurabo
09-29-2006, 06:01 PM
Roberts has mostly played LF for the Pads, no? Is he better in CF than Sweeney would be? If he can handle CF, I'd have no problem with him there and Fields in LF. There's a lot to like with Sweeney, and I think he's got a great shot at winning a roster spot next spring, depending on what moves are made in the off-season. But Fields-BA-Dye leaves them without a leadoff hitter, as I think Young is better suited to hit 2nd.

I'd feel a lot better about BA's chances for next year if he hadn't regressed the last month or so, but lately he's looked an awful lot like the April-June version. Two good months and four bad ones don't fill me with confidence.

The Rangers are going to do everything they can to keep Matthews, so it's not a foregone conclusion they will need a CF.

I oppose trading Anderson. He has more value to the Sox than to any other team.

I'm not sure any of the Rangers' middle infield prospects are good or polished enough to be considered options for SS in 2007. Therefore, Uribe makes sense for them. Isn't Uribe in the last year of his contract in 2007? (IIRC he signed a 3 year, $15 million deal before 2005.) While Joaquin Arias gets another year to develop, Uribe would give the Rangers a stopgap shortstop, plus the potential for him to improve his hitting during a contract year under the tutelage of Rudy Jaramillo.

Freddy likes to work up a good, sweaty lather on the mound. The Texas heat would be perfect for him.

Garcia + Uribe for Young = fair trade for both sides

The Sox might have to send cash or a prospect to the Rangers. In any case the Sox would shed lots of payroll to spend on the bullpen and a leadoff hitter. A motivated Juan Pierre would fit in left field.

Pierre - Young - Thome - PK - Dye - AJ - Iguchi - Crede - Anderson

That lineup would put up a lot of crooked numbers in the first inning and the outfield range and defense would really help out the pitching staff.

Young's doubles numbers would decline playing 81 games at the Cell, but his homer totals would increase. I'm thinking .300 average, 15 steals, 40 doubles and 30 homers in the #2 spot. Between Pierre's 200 hits and Young's .300 average, the 3-4-5 thumpers would have a ton of RBI opportunities.

Iguchi in the 7 hole would give him RBI opportunities and inject better speed in front of Crede. Anderson's ability to hit doubles out of the nine spot would give him a fair number of RBIs, too. If he can learn to bunt for sacrifices and hits this winter, he also will be able to turn the lineup over and be a threat to double steal if Pierre gets on after him. Then what would opposing managers do? Walk Young to load the bases for Thome?

:D:

esbrechtel
09-29-2006, 06:12 PM
Pierre - Young - Thome - PK - Dye - AJ - Iguchi - Crede - Anderson



LOVE this lineup....pierre might play better for a contender....

ShoelessJoeS
09-29-2006, 06:15 PM
Pierre - Young - Thome - PK - Dye - AJ - Iguchi - Crede - Anderson:drool:

caulfield12
09-29-2006, 06:45 PM
LOVE this lineup....pierre might play better for a contender....


What's the rationale for Iguchi over Crede?

Since Crede is slower and has already proven he can hit 30 homers, wouldn't you put Iguchi 8th so he start over the line-up again at the bottom (hopefully) in front of Anderson?

Frater Perdurabo
09-29-2006, 07:29 PM
What's the rationale for Iguchi over Crede?

Since Crede is slower and has already proven he can hit 30 homers, wouldn't you put Iguchi 8th so he start over the line-up again at the bottom (hopefully) in front of Anderson?

Frankly, if the biggest worry is who bats seventh and eighth among Crede and Iguchi, the Sox are would be in excellent shape.

My rationale for Iguchi seventh and Crede eighth would be in inject a bit of speed in front of Crede. Thome-PK-Dye-AJ will clog the basepaths; it would be good to get some speed in there. If Crede doubles, Iguchi could score from first. If Iguchi gets on second, he could score on a Crede single.

Crede does not score from second on an Iguchi single or from first on an Iguchi double.

Basically Iguchi's better speed gives the Sox more options for scoring from the bottom of the lineup.

caulfield12
09-29-2006, 08:02 PM
Frankly, if the biggest worry is who bats seventh and eighth among Crede and Iguchi, the Sox are would be in excellent shape.

My rationale for Iguchi seventh and Crede eighth would be in inject a bit of speed in front of Crede. Thome-PK-Dye-AJ will clog the basepaths; it would be good to get some speed in there. If Crede doubles, Iguchi could score from first. If Iguchi gets on second, he could score on a Crede single.

Crede does not score from second on an Iguchi single or from first on an Iguchi double.

Basically Iguchi's better speed gives the Sox more options for scoring from the bottom of the lineup.


The only thing I don't like is that Crede is now a better hitter than both AJ and Iguchi and will end up getting less AB's over the season.

doctorlecter
09-29-2006, 08:45 PM
I think you are underestimating what a guy like Ichiro would do to our team. Personally, I would do McCarthy/Fields/Broadway for Ichiro in NY second. It nets you a HUGE impact player and one of the best outfielders in the game without compromising the core of the team. He has EVERYTHING the Sox need. A guy who can play any outfield position, plays great defense, has a cannon for a throwing arm, can lay down a successful bunt, gets an obscene amount of hits per year, can steal bases, and occasionally hits for power. You want to get back to the World Series in 2007? Ichiro is a huge step in the right direction. However, I think it is a pipe dream because I believe Seattle is going to do everything they can to keep him.
A couple of different little birds told me that Ichiro wants out of Seattle.

Domeshot17
09-29-2006, 09:35 PM
The rationale is perfect to hit iguchi 7th.

Thome Konerko SLOW, Dye hitting 5 is alright speed wise. AJ SLOW Iguchi alright speed wise Crede SLOW. Iguchi is also much less of an ALL-OR-NOTHING hitter like Crede and Thome etc. so putting him in the middle would be a nice break, would prevent plenty of the load the bases, strike out, strike out, pop out.

I really dont care if we cost Crede 10-15 at bats in the seaso if it means more runs and production. How do you prevent solo home runs? You put people on base in front of them.

I also believe you can not have Sweeney and Anderson in the same OF and win. As good as the D would be, You are talking to (at best although sweeney is a question mark) average hitting not very powerful and only average speed OF. I dont think you can have 2 OF who hit 270-10 homers 9-13 stolen bases.

Beautox
09-29-2006, 09:59 PM
Exactly. Which is why Young ain't leavin' the Rangers.

Rangers owner Tom Hicks said Thursday that signing shortstop Michael Young to a contract extension is a priority for the club in the offseason.

But Young, who is signed through 2007 with an option for 2008, doesn't appear to be too eager to get something done anytime soon.

"My agent and I will listen to what they have to say, but at the same time, we're in no hurry," Young said before the Rangers' game with the Los Angeles Angels. "When I signed this contract, I expected to play it out and see what happens. After that, who knows?

"I'm all about winning games; it's as simple as that. Where I end up after this contract is over, it's going to be with a team that has the best chance of winning the World Series. There's no secret to that, they know that."

The question is if the Rangers will be the team that has the best chance. The Rangers have never been to the World Series and have not been to the playoffs since 1999. Young was acquired from the Toronto Blue Jays on July 19, 2000.

"We have a lot of championship players," Young said. "It's just a matter of being on the same page, getting more pieces and everybody picking each other up. We didn't have enough of that this year. As time goes on, I'm getting more and more tired of missing the postseason.

"At some point you have to see results. If I feel it's here, fine. It goes back to who has the best chance of winning the World Series. Obviously though, I'm not going somewhere to play left field just because a team has a chance of winning. For sure, everything has to be the right situation." By T.R. Sullivan / MLB.com (http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060914&content_id=1663074&vkey=news_tex&fext=.jsp&c_id=te)

I'd love to see Young on the south side in '07

Beautox
09-29-2006, 10:10 PM
Do you realistically think we could compete next season against the Twins, Tigers and Indians with McCarthy AND Haeger/Broadway/Phillips/Tracey as our fourth and fifth starters? I would say our chances of making the playoffs would be, at best, 25% (if one of our presumably four starters went down to injury for a sustained period of time).

With McCarthy and Haeger? yes they both have ML "stuff" McCarthy has proven it at the milb level(led the IL in SO last year) and the mlb when he has started. As for Haeger his knuckler dances hes retired all 14 of the last batters he has faced while striking out 7 including Ichiro(one of the hardest in mlb to fan) Charlie Hough thinks very highly of Haeger, and he has already made his ml debut at age 23, Wakefield didn't do it till he was 26, i believe Haeger could post a league average ERA with the chance for much more.

Anyways if Haeger isn't in the rotation next year (he has a slim chance) i expect to see him in McCarthys role.

I think this offseason we should offer contracts to both Garcia and MB and who ever doesn't sign deal along with Jose. If Mark won't re sign he needs to be moved this offseason for the better of the Chicago White Sox, possibly to St. Louis for the likes of Reyes, Wainwright and Bryan Anderson (C)

caulfield12
09-29-2006, 10:58 PM
With McCarthy and Haeger? yes they both have ML "stuff" McCarthy has proven it at the milb level(led the IL in SO last year) and the mlb when he has started. As for Haeger his knuckler dances hes retired all 14 of the last batters he has faced while striking out 7 including Ichiro(one of the hardest in mlb to fan) Charlie Hough thinks very highly of Haeger, and he has already made his ml debut at age 23, Wakefield didn't do it till he was 26, i believe Haeger could post a league average ERA with the chance for much more.

Anyways if Haeger isn't in the rotation next year (he has a slim chance) i expect to see him in McCarthys role.

I think this offseason we should offer contracts to both Garcia and MB and who ever doesn't sign deal along with Jose. If Mark won't re sign he needs to be moved this offseason for the better of the Chicago White Sox, possibly to St. Louis for the likes of Reyes, Wainwright and Bryan Anderson (C)

What is the possible rationale for trading two starters?

To replace them with Reyes, Wainright, Haeger or Broadway?

St. Louis needs to keep Reyes, they have no starters after Carpenter.

Hitmen77
09-29-2006, 11:01 PM
Pierre - Young - Thome - PK - Dye - AJ - Iguchi - Crede - Anderson



That is one impressive lineup. I think that should be in deep pink - but that doesn't mean it's not possible.

Then the Sox still need to fill some bullpen holes and hope the remaining starting pitchers rebound from this year.

MrX
09-29-2006, 11:16 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060929soxgamer,1,654533.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

New story from the cubune about 07.

-McCarthy will be in the rotation
-Sounds like Juan will be back at SS
-KW wants to talk to Ozzie about Pods

Bullpen and a right handed reserve CF will be what he targets this offseason.

Beautox
09-30-2006, 12:17 AM
What is the possible rationale for trading two starters?

To replace them with Reyes, Wainright, Haeger or Broadway?

St. Louis needs to keep Reyes, they have no starters after Carpenter.

The Rationale? we have way too much $$$ locked up in 5 players 3 of which have preformed very mediocre this year, and secondly even though MB is only 27 he has alot of IP on his arm. and Jose is older and a health risk with this weak FA offseason any one of our SP will bring back a haul.

As for MB thats only if he wont reup with the sox, don't you agree we need to have him locked up for '08 and beyond or he needs to be moved. Draft picks for FAs won't be part of the upcoming CBA, we can't let him walk for nothing, the sox have to get some sort of compensation.

Your right everyone but Carpenter is a FA, but would they rather rest there hopes(and new stadium) on Reyes who has a little bit of injury history and Wainwright in a the pen instead of MB a man with a ring and a excellent career track record who wants to be a card?

Also Edmonds is coming off the books at 9mil, they can better assemble a more veteran staff and Mulder is out the door so they don't have a LHP even though you don't always need a LHP on a staff if they can't get the job done anyways (Mark Redman).

Domeshot17
09-30-2006, 01:16 AM
anyone else who read that article just sickened by Uribe only drawing 13 WALKS IN 460 + At Bats??????

I for one am really sick of Uribe. Yah he made one hell of a catch to win us a world series, and I thank him for that, but please, his D was not good this year and his offense from approach to the stats is terrible. If Kenny is serious about a very quiet offseason, 2007 will piss us off just as much as 2006. I think this is maybe the first time since Todd Ritchie I have been upset at what Kenny has said or done

Sargeant79
09-30-2006, 01:59 AM
anyone else who read that article just sickened by Uribe only drawing 13 WALKS IN 460 + At Bats??????

I for one am really sick of Uribe. Yah he made one hell of a catch to win us a world series, and I thank him for that, but please, his D was not good this year and his offense from approach to the stats is terrible. If Kenny is serious about a very quiet offseason, 2007 will piss us off just as much as 2006. I think this is maybe the first time since Todd Ritchie I have been upset at what Kenny has said or done

While Uribe certainly has some areas in which I wish he would improve, if he's the worst problem the Sox have, we're in good shape. Bullpen should be priority number one in the offseason. If you can, replace Pods, and KW didn't say anything in the article to lead me to believe that this won't happen. Anything after that may not be necessary. BA will likely improve in CF, and the starters that aren't traded will probably not do worse than this year.

A new bullpen + improvement from within the existing roster = postseason in 2007

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 02:59 AM
Put a gold star on this for KW...
"But when you've got hitters who know what they're doing, who are somewhat patient and disciplined toward the strike zone, you're probably going to extend innings and get into bullpens and do all the stuff that's conducive to offense (talking about high OBP). We've had trouble over the years with some of that. It's something I've always tried to improve upon in putting a lineup out there. But you're right, we've got a little more threat one-through-nine than we've had in the recent past."

"....there was a little bit different look to the club. There was a little more speed, a little more range, and that range factor improved our defense some. We were hitting better, and our runners were going first to third and second to home on a consistent basis. We had a little bit more production one-through-nine instead of just a couple of spots. Neshek came up, and he's been a very valuable guy in the bullpen. A lot of things happened. There's not just one area—it wasn't a matter of replacing Tony Batista, for example. I hate to make him the fall guy for this ballclub. There were a number of things that ultimately transpired to give us a whole different look. Tyner came up. It's amazing, all these guys who came up from AAA—they all responded."

Uribe is NOT going to change. Pods is done, and Anderson MIGHT be able to change, but it's 50/50.

Use this formula to compete with the Twins more than 20% of the time. Don't just HOPE or SPECULATE the SAME players will be hungrier next season.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/misc/progress.gif

Man Soo Lee
09-30-2006, 12:46 PM
Nobody is suggesting they're going to "dump" him. But they have some good young middle infielders on the way up, so they could trade him for the starting pitching they desperately need. Also, he's a FA after 2007, so he won't be cheap for long.

The Rangers have a cheap team option (http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/texas-rangers.html) on Young for '08. He's one of the best bargains in baseball for the next two years and I doubt they would trade him for a pitcher on the last year of his contract.

Iguchi is also much less of an ALL-OR-NOTHING hitter like Crede and Thome etc. so putting him in the middle would be a nice break, would prevent plenty of the load the bases, strike out, strike out, pop out.

Iguchi has struck out almost twice as many times as "all-or-nothing" Crede.

Frater Perdurabo
09-30-2006, 12:56 PM
The Rangers have a cheap team option (http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/texas-rangers.html) on Young for '08. He's one of the best bargains in baseball for the next two years and I doubt they would trade him for a pitcher on the last year of his contract.

Iguchi has struck out almost twice as many times as "all-or-nothing" Crede.

That's often because Iguchi is patiently taking strikes when Pods might be trying to steal.

If Young makes it clear that he does not plan to sign a new contract extension with the Rangers (and he's sort of hinting that he's not interested in doing so), then the Rangers may have "no choice" but to deal him while they still can get something for him.

Hendu
09-30-2006, 01:00 PM
No way do we want Juan Pierre. His numbers have been on the decline the past few seasons, and his OBP is bad for a leadoff hitter, as has already been stated in this thread. Plus, his defense isn't great.

How much would it take to sign him? Somebody's going to end up paying him way too much, and I don't want it be us. Who wants Juan Pierre for the next 3 years at 5-7 mil per? :puking:

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 01:02 PM
That's often because Iguchi is patiently taking strikes when Pods might be trying to steal.

If Young makes it clear that he does not plan to sign a new contract extension with the Rangers (and he's sort of hinting that he's not interested in doing so), then the Rangers may have "no choice" but to deal him while they still can get something for him.


If they have an option and it's cheap (like Crawford's deal), he will cost a pretty penny. They don't have to deal him, they can sit back and wait for offers and get the best possible trade.

I think Showalter will be out and it will change the atmosphere around that team. Whether they can beat the A's or Angels, that's another question...they have huge pitching problems and really need to shore up their rotation. Young might be the best bargaining chip, but, historically, trading pitchers for position players is a dangerous business.

Frater Perdurabo
09-30-2006, 01:13 PM
If they have an option and it's cheap (like Crawford's deal), he will cost a pretty penny. They don't have to deal him, they can sit back and wait for offers and get the best possible trade.

I think Showalter will be out and it will change the atmosphere around that team. Whether they can beat the A's or Angels, that's another question...they have huge pitching problems and really need to shore up their rotation. Young might be the best bargaining chip, but, historically, trading pitchers for position players is a dangerous business.

The Rangers desperately need pitching. Jon Daniels will demand it in return. He has said that in every trade he makes he insists on getting pitching back. Other than the Sox, what team has a "surplus" (if there is such a thing) of starting pitching?

Also, don't discount what kind of hitter Juan Uribe could become under Rudy Jaramillo's tutelage, especially in his own contract year.

caulfield12
09-30-2006, 01:21 PM
The Rangers desperately need pitching. Jon Daniels will demand it in return. He has said that in every trade he makes he insists on getting pitching back. Other than the Sox, what team has a "surplus" (if there is such a thing) of starting pitching?

Also, don't discount what kind of hitter Juan Uribe could become under Rudy Jaramillo's tutelage, especially in his own contract year.

Hmmm....maybe the A's (if Harden is healthy), although that would be in the division.

Marlins, but they have Ramirez.

Twins could dump Silva, but he's not as good as Eaton or Padilla.

Sox-o-matic
09-30-2006, 01:43 PM
The Rangers desperately need pitching. Jon Daniels will demand it in return. He has said that in every trade he makes he insists on getting pitching back. Other than the Sox, what team has a "surplus" (if there is such a thing) of starting pitching?

Also, don't discount what kind of hitter Juan Uribe could become under Rudy Jaramillo's tutelage, especially in his own contract year.

Jaraillo has had a lot of success with guys who already hit for decent average and for the most part didn't take themselves out of AB's time after time. While I do think that if Juan played in Texas he could put up some more home runs resulting in a slightly higher average and slugging perentage, I don't think any hitting coach is going to make enough of a difference. If Juan ever stays with one approach all year long and improves his discipline he will be very, very good. But it's all on him, just like its always been.

Ol' No. 2
09-30-2006, 02:09 PM
The Rangers are going to do everything they can to keep Matthews, so it's not a foregone conclusion they will need a CF.

I oppose trading Anderson. He has more value to the Sox than to any other team.

I'm not sure any of the Rangers' middle infield prospects are good or polished enough to be considered options for SS in 2007. Therefore, Uribe makes sense for them. Isn't Uribe in the last year of his contract in 2007? (IIRC he signed a 3 year, $15 million deal before 2005.) While Joaquin Arias gets another year to develop, Uribe would give the Rangers a stopgap shortstop, plus the potential for him to improve his hitting during a contract year under the tutelage of Rudy Jaramillo.

Freddy likes to work up a good, sweaty lather on the mound. The Texas heat would be perfect for him.

Garcia + Uribe for Young = fair trade for both sides

The Sox might have to send cash or a prospect to the Rangers. In any case the Sox would shed lots of payroll to spend on the bullpen and a leadoff hitter. A motivated Juan Pierre would fit in left field.

Pierre - Young - Thome - PK - Dye - AJ - Iguchi - Crede - Anderson

That lineup would put up a lot of crooked numbers in the first inning and the outfield range and defense would really help out the pitching staff.

Young's doubles numbers would decline playing 81 games at the Cell, but his homer totals would increase. I'm thinking .300 average, 15 steals, 40 doubles and 30 homers in the #2 spot. Between Pierre's 200 hits and Young's .300 average, the 3-4-5 thumpers would have a ton of RBI opportunities.

Iguchi in the 7 hole would give him RBI opportunities and inject better speed in front of Crede. Anderson's ability to hit doubles out of the nine spot would give him a fair number of RBIs, too. If he can learn to bunt for sacrifices and hits this winter, he also will be able to turn the lineup over and be a threat to double steal if Pierre gets on after him. Then what would opposing managers do? Walk Young to load the bases for Thome?

:D:Honestly, how is Juan Pierre NOT a downgrade over Podsednik? He has the same OBP against vastly inferior pitching. He has a few more steals, but not enough of a difference to matter. And his defense is worse.

Someone please tell me why we want Juan Pierre. :dunno:

soxinem1
09-30-2006, 02:22 PM
Honestly, how is Juan Pierre NOT a downgrade over Podsednik? He has the same OBP against vastly inferior pitching. He has a few more steals, but not enough of a difference to matter. And his defense is worse.

Someone please tell me why we want Juan Pierre. :dunno:

Don't say 'we'!! I'd rather have CoCo Crisp than Pierre, and if a real upgrade is not possible, they might as well keep Pods.

I Say Nay to Pierre!!

esbrechtel
09-30-2006, 02:48 PM
i would rather get rid of uribe and keep pods.....i may be in the minority but i think if pods gets out of his "funk" he might be a solid ball player (im talkin first half 05) he didnt have a full ST this season AND he had a short off season AND he had that surgery for a hernia.....who knows getting rid of pods (as much as he pissed me off) might not be the best idea....id rather have Young and keep pods than have pierre and keep uribe...

Bill Naharodny
09-30-2006, 03:06 PM
Honestly, how is Juan Pierre NOT a downgrade over Podsednik? He has the same OBP against vastly inferior pitching. He has a few more steals, but not enough of a difference to matter. And his defense is worse.

Someone please tell me why we want Juan Pierre. :dunno:

Juan Pierre may be a lot of things, but one thing he isn't is worse than Scott Podsednik in the outfield. His arm's probably worse (which, I'll admit, is hard to imagine), but he has outfielder's instincts (unlike good ol' number 22), and he catches everything. Seriously, the guy's good out there.

Jjav829
09-30-2006, 03:37 PM
The Rangers desperately need pitching. Jon Daniels will demand it in return. He has said that in every trade he makes he insists on getting pitching back. Other than the Sox, what team has a "surplus" (if there is such a thing) of starting pitching?

Also, don't discount what kind of hitter Juan Uribe could become under Rudy Jaramillo's tutelage, especially in his own contract year.

Remember this is the same team that decided last offseason to trade their big bargaining chip, Alfonso Soriano, for two outfielders and a minor league pitcher. Don't underestimate their potential for screwing up a Young trade; though I guess they'd be saved by the fact that Kenny would try to work a starter into the deal since he has a surplus of starters.

Frater Perdurabo
09-30-2006, 07:46 PM
Remember this is the same team that decided last offseason to trade their big bargaining chip, Alfonso Soriano, for two outfielders and a minor league pitcher. Don't underestimate their potential for screwing up a Young trade; though I guess they'd be saved by the fact that Kenny would try to work a starter into the deal since he has a surplus of starters.

Agreed. And they are the same team who:

Ridiculuously overpaid for A-Rod
Traded him and cash to the Yankees for Soriano
Ridiculously overpaid for Chan Ho Park
Traded Travis Hafner, Adrian Gonzalez and Chris Young
Let Canseco pitch
Kept John Hart over Grady Fuson
Retain Hart as an "advisor"
Repeatedly tried to dump Michael Young in favor of Mike Lamb
Screwed up Hank Blalock
Fired Doug Melvin
Twice dumped Kenny Rogers
Repeatedly dumped pitchers who had success elsewhere
Traded for Carlos Lee
Let Rafael Palmeiro go before moving into a park with a right field porch specifically designed for him
Traded Sosa, Alvarez and Fletcher for Baines and Manrique
Alienated Aaron Sele
Messed up Bobby Witt
Screwed up Ramon Nivar and Laynce Nix
Turned a fair park into an extreme hitters' park
Built their stadium in the largest city in the U.S. without mass transit
Pay Showalter $2 million/year to ensure players wear ties on road trips

The ONLY smart thing they've ever done is sign Nolan Ryan.

If KW can't fleece the Rangers, he's not as good as any of us think. :tongue:

ShoelessJoeS
09-30-2006, 08:00 PM
If KW can't fleece the Rangers, he's not as good as any of us think. :tongue:If it comes down to it, a couple roundhouse kicks should settle them straight.

Craig Grebeck
09-30-2006, 11:05 PM
Juan Pierre may be a lot of things, but one thing he isn't is worse than Scott Podsednik in the outfield. His arm's probably worse (which, I'll admit, is hard to imagine), but he has outfielder's instincts (unlike good ol' number 22), and he catches everything. Seriously, the guy's good out there.
Most guys who get this far are good enough to not hurt a team terribly, especially outfielders. Him being "good out there" is not a good enough reason to throw 7 million a year at him.