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Lip Man 1
09-24-2006, 10:19 PM
"With the Dan Ryan, coming to the ballpark, it's a lot of noise, a lot of traffic here... the White Sox should appreciate the support we have from them. Hopefully, we continue to be supported by them, because it's all about them." -- Ozzie Guillen talking about Sox fan support to Scott Merkin of whitesox.com

caulfield12
09-24-2006, 10:22 PM
The major dissatisfaction Sunday was the booing that rained down on reliever Neal Cotts after he allowed back-to-back homers and had to walk in disgrace to the dugout, knowing he had ruined what had been a happy afternoon.

"It's not the way to go out," Cotts said afterward, fighting back tears.

from chicagosports.com

Or my new favorite quotes I just read tonight...

"I should have pitched better, but it happens," said Garcia, who will make his final start of the regular season Saturday at Minnesota.

"I was great the last month, and hopefully the next year I'll be better."

pearso66
09-24-2006, 10:25 PM
The major dissatisfaction Sunday was the booing that rained down on reliever Neal Cotts after he allowed back-to-back homers and had to walk in disgrace to the dugout, knowing he had ruined what had been a happy afternoon.

"It's not the way to go out," Cotts said afterward, fighting back tears.

from chicagosports.com

I agree with you. I was not one of the people that joined in on the booing. While I didn't like how he went out, I don't think that he needs to get booed. Buehrle was booed yesterday too. Both had rough years, and hopefully will rebound nicely next year, they were huge components in our title run last year, and both have the talent to be outstanding.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2006, 10:32 PM
If what Ozzie said is true, that this game is about 'them' (the fans) then those said fans have the right to express themselves for poor performance.

These guys get paid a lot of money to succeed. Now you can't succeed all the time but to have the kind of years they had (particularly Cotts who doesn't have Mark's track record)...well it was expected.

As stated in the past I have no issues with booing as long as it's not racial or vulgar.

Besides they should try playing in New York or Philadelphia or even now the North Side of Chicago.

If Cotts is sharp, he'll use the booing as motivation this off season...that's what a guy named MJ did.

Lip

caulfield12
09-24-2006, 10:41 PM
If what Ozzie said is true, that this game is about 'them' (the fans) then those said fans have the right to express themselves for poor performance.

These guys get paid a lot of money to succeed. Now you can't succeed all the time but to have the kind of years they had (particularly Cotts who doesn't have Mark's track record)...well it was expected.

As stated in the past I have no issues with booing as long as it's not racial or vulgar.

Besides they should try playing in New York or Philadelphia or even now the North Side of Chicago.

If Cotts is sharp, he'll use the booing as motivation this off season...that's what a guy named MJ did.

Lip

The bigger question for the Sox becomes how Mark Buehrle responds.

Not sure if Ozzie was just being the good "loyalist," but the article tonight said he would have no problems bringing the same club back, even Pods. And there was some comment about him not being aware of the contract status of the players, which I both find difficult (and, knowing Ozzie) not so difficult to believe simultaneously.

I don't think they can take the risk of bringing Pods back only to have him end up as a bench player, unless they have a Plan B in place that doesn't involve Ozuna or Mackowiak platooning.

Article again mentioned how difficult it was to find a leadoff man, mentioned the cost for Gary Mathews, Jr. coming off a career season and Dave Roberts came up once again.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2006, 10:46 PM
Caulfield:

Which is why with Phil Rogers' column comments about Ichiro and the Mariners, Kenny needs to 'think big' again and ask Seattle 'what if...'

I mean he's got nothing to lose right?

Also regarding Buehrle. It's ironic that the way Garcia and Vasquez has pitched the last month, Kenny now may not want to deal them. It could very well be Mark or Jose out of the mix (or based on Ozzie's comments McCarthy)

One thing Mark does have going for him...he's left handed. The Sox have no one else to replace that handidness.

Lip

caulfield12
09-24-2006, 10:54 PM
I can't imagine that it will be Jose, because there's still that underlying concern about the sciatica (Ozzie mentioned that he thought he was going to have a great season until he struggled coming back from the injury) and now the two recent mishaps.

I think it makes Jose more difficult to trade, because of the longer-term nature of his contract and continuing questions about his real age.

He's one of the Sox pitchers you believe can put together a two-month stretch of 2.50 ERA ball and carry the team on his back, as he's done it twice now in the last two seasons. Garland is perhaps the most marketable in some respects, because of his age and below market contract.

Then you have Mark, Javier and Freddy, who I would consider almost to be "even" in terms of their trade value at this exact moment in time. All would be attractive because of the fact that they're in contract years, where they're pitching for new contracts in 2008 (although the White Sox have the option to keep Javier, at least that's the way I understand it).

But I would not trade Brandon, Mark or Jose...unless the club has solid reasons to believe they're not going to perform up to expectations in the future.

Whatever happens, potential trade partners need to have LFers/SS's (leadoff guys), middle relievers and minor league starting pitching prospects for us to acquire.

As far as the Ichiro deal, my only concern is giving up the entire farm system and then Ichiro falling off in performance...it would leave the White Sox with a pretty bleak 2-3 year future of rebuilding IMO.

It's the kind of gutsy, go-for-broke deal KW has always favored, and I would support it...also worrying about the downside and having to do another 1997 or 2002-ish fire sale if Ichiro, Dye, Konerko, Thome, Iguchi and some of the other veterans started to all slip (KW has mentioned his studies of past WS teams getting old and not being reinvigorated with "new blood") simultaneously.

oeo
09-24-2006, 11:11 PM
The major dissatisfaction Sunday was the booing that rained down on reliever Neal Cotts after he allowed back-to-back homers and had to walk in disgrace to the dugout, knowing he had ruined what had been a happy afternoon.

"It's not the way to go out," Cotts said afterward, fighting back tears.

from chicagosports.com

Or my new favorite quotes I just read tonight...

"I should have pitched better, but it happens," said Garcia, who will make his final start of the regular season Saturday at Minnesota.

"I was great the last month, and hopefully the next year I'll be better."

I really hope Neal can rebound next year. Probably not the 2005 version, but at least a very reliable lefty again.

Caulfield:

Which is why with Phil Rogers' column comments about Ichiro and the Mariners, Kenny needs to 'think big' again and ask Seattle 'what if...'

I mean he's got nothing to lose right?

Also regarding Buehrle. It's ironic that the way Garcia and Vasquez has pitched the last month, Kenny now may not want to deal them. It could very well be Mark or Jose out of the mix (or based on Ozzie's comments McCarthy)

One thing Mark does have going for him...he's left handed. The Sox have no one else to replace that handidness.

Lip

Uhm, and he's been our most reliable starter over the last 5 years. 5 good seasons vs. 1 bad one. Which one is the fluke?

Trading Mark would be a HUGE mistake. Honestly, if McCarthy can bring us somebody like Crawford, do it. This same staff will be better next year.

fquaye149
09-25-2006, 12:07 AM
I hate booing players like Cotts and Buehrle.

You paid your money, you have every right to boo

but to me that's chicken**** bush league, ungrateful hooey.

If I booed when drunk I'd wake up in the morning and be unwilling to look myself in the mirror.

It makes me physically nauseous to know that Buehrle is getting booed. That is horrible and tragic and disgraceful to White Sox fans everywhere.

Good God, the guy had a ****ty year but JESUS....have you no restraint?

Palehose Pete
09-25-2006, 12:23 AM
I agree with you, fquaye149. Booing guys like Mark and Neal is uncalled for no matter how frustrating the last month has been.

bnlfanmatt
09-25-2006, 01:32 AM
I don't know if you can sit there and pick one guy out of the starting pitchers to get rid of. They each have their pros and cons. I hope that Buehrle comes back out of it, and he might be our most valuable, for being a lefty and consistent except for last year. I have a few observation on Mark, and I'm wondering if his heart isn't in it. Along with nixing the tarp sliding, I used to always notice him catching the first pitch, but lately, I haven't seen him do it. I'm having trouble remembering when I last saw him do it, but I haven't seen him catch the first pitch in my 3 games in September (I think Rock did 'em all). That used to be something he enjoyed. Anyone know any reason for not doing it? Maybe we need to give him his fun back. Maybe it will help psychologically.
I don't need to see Cotts go, but he at least needs to be better than the Cotts of '06. I like the guy a lot, and he was great in '05. But today, I was one of the boobirds, and while I don't think he needs his spirit broken, he needs a wake-up call. I'm sure it's hard on him, but this season has been hard on all of us. It seems like this year he's been much too generous with giving out hope to the other team. Like all members of the '05 team, I respect what he did for us, I wish him the best and hope he can come back and perform well out of the pen next year. No one gets a free pass this year though for what happened last year.

RadioheadRocks
09-25-2006, 01:43 AM
Regarding Cotts, one thing that may be lost in all of this is if releasing Politte earlier this season may have had an effect on him. From what I understand Politte and Cotts were really close (there was even an article in the third edition of this year's program regarding the bond they had as teammates and as friends), and his pitching woes really seemed to compound once Politte was gone. Anyway I still like Cotts and will always be grateful for his performance and contributions to our World Series championship (likewise for Politte); hopefully he'll get everything sorted out and will bounce back next season.

Grzegorz
09-25-2006, 04:41 AM
Caulfield:

Which is why with Phil Rogers' column comments about Ichiro and the Mariners, Kenny needs to 'think big' again and ask Seattle 'what if...'

I mean he's got nothing to lose right?

Lip

He has nothing to lose in asking, but if the price is too high then pass. This farm system has to be used as a resource for future White Sox and for commodities to trade.

I'd be interested in seeing how the White Sox farm system stacks up with the rest of the league.

Winners are built through the most difficult commodity in the game: pitching.

Build the farm system; whether through shrewd drafting or trades. Build it and championships will come.

jenn2080
09-25-2006, 07:47 AM
Regarding Cotts, one thing that may be lost in all of this is if releasing Politte earlier this season may have had an effect on him. From what I understand Politte and Cotts were really close (there was even an article in the third edition of this year's program regarding the bond they had as teammates and as friends), and his pitching woes really seemed to compound once Politte was gone. Anyway I still like Cotts and will always be grateful for his performance and contributions to our World Series championship (likewise for Politte); hopefully he'll get everything sorted out and will bounce back next season.


This is their job and this is the same thing as Jose missing El Duque. CRAP!They know that players come and go. If he misses him call him on the phone. It was lame when they brought it up about Jose and this is lame about Cotts too.

caulfield12
09-25-2006, 08:39 AM
He has nothing to lose in asking, but if the price is too high then pass. This farm system has to be used as a resource for future White Sox and for commodities to trade.

I'd be interested in seeing how the White Sox farm system stacks up with the rest of the league.

Winners are built through the most difficult commodity in the game: pitching.

Build the farm system; whether through shrewd drafting or trades. Build it and championships will come.

If our minor league pitching is a barometer, our future is pretty bleak.

Broadway MIGHT be a #3 starter...McCullough MIGHT be a #3/4 starter, and then you have Haeger, who's more of a 4/5 type.

The pressure is really on McCarthy to be a very solid 3 and perhaps even a 2 and eventually a staff ace.

If McCarthy doesn't make it, it will be one of many in the long line of Sox pitching prospects that have failed miserably...although I still think, despite this year, that he'll be fine.

We either have to be really bad to draft high (hasn't happened since the late 80's) or we have to make trades (KW's modus operandi) or scouting (how the Twins ended up with Liriano and Santana, or Garza, who was drafted after Broadway and will be the 3rd starter against the Yankees in the playoffs one year after starting for Fresno State in the CWS).

Scouting and being really bad have been our weaknesses, so we'll have to rely upon trades.

We've also traded Haigwood, Josh Rupe, Gio Gonzalez and Tyler Lumsden over the last couple of years, not to mention Chris Young.

If all those guys were still in our system, we would be a Top 3-7 organization. As it is, we're probably in the 18-22 range, if not a little lower.

ajismyhero
09-25-2006, 09:02 AM
This is their job and this is the same thing as Jose missing El Duque. CRAP!They know that players come and go. If he misses him call him on the phone. It was lame when they brought it up about Jose and this is lame about Cotts too.

Thank You! You didn't see Crede having an off year because he missed Rowand. I think Cotts is just a young, impressionable guy who is under a lot of pressure to succeed and and every time he takes the mound now he freaks out. He expects more of himself (as evidenced in his outbursts in the dugout after games and kicking at the mound) and he knows we expect more out of him (as evidenced in the booing at the game). Which, I will add, is absolute crap. The people booing Cotts were hopefully the same people who threw the homerun balls back, and hopefully those fans will get traded back to the Cubs during the off season.

jdm2662
09-25-2006, 09:21 AM
This is their job and this is the same thing as Jose missing El Duque. CRAP!They know that players come and go. If he misses him call him on the phone. It was lame when they brought it up about Jose and this is lame about Cotts too.

My thoughts exactly. People coming and going is the way of life. I've had some good friends in a lot of jobs I've held. If I left the job, or someone else I liked left and/or was fired, it never affected how I performed. Life goes on and saying good-bye is a part of life. These are grown men we are talking about.

southside rocks
09-25-2006, 09:29 AM
I hate booing players like Cotts and Buehrle.

You paid your money, you have every right to boo

but to me that's chicken**** bush league, ungrateful hooey.

If I booed when drunk I'd wake up in the morning and be unwilling to look myself in the mirror.

It makes me physically nauseous to know that Buehrle is getting booed. That is horrible and tragic and disgraceful to White Sox fans everywhere.

Good God, the guy had a ****ty year but JESUS....have you no restraint?

I agree with you.

I recognize that fans have a right to boo -- which nobody has ever disputed, so I'm not sure why that needs to be reiterated -- and I recognize that a large number of fans will boo, out of anger, frustration, disappointment, drunkenness, or just ignorance. Booing expresses an emotion.

My own belief is that the players who have had bad seasons have enough crap on them, and booing doesn't do anything but rub it in. It's like seeing somebody slip and fall on the ice, and walking past him and saying 'man, are you stupid and clumsy!' It's just rude.

When MB got yanked in his last start, he sat in the dugout for a few minutes and the camera stayed on him and I swear he was about to cry. And Cotts apparently was nearly in tears yesterday. Why would anybody who's not a complete expletive want to make those guys feel worse? Their pride AND their careers have taken a huge hit this year. IMO someone would have to be a total loser to boo them.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2006, 12:36 PM
Greg says: "Build it and championships will come."

You mean like after the 'White Flag Trade' and 'The Kids Can Play' years?

Lip

JB98
09-25-2006, 05:24 PM
Caulfield:

Which is why with Phil Rogers' column comments about Ichiro and the Mariners, Kenny needs to 'think big' again and ask Seattle 'what if...'

I mean he's got nothing to lose right?

Also regarding Buehrle. It's ironic that the way Garcia and Vasquez has pitched the last month, Kenny now may not want to deal them. It could very well be Mark or Jose out of the mix (or based on Ozzie's comments McCarthy)

One thing Mark does have going for him...he's left handed. The Sox have no one else to replace that handidness.

Lip

What about Heath Phillips? His numbers in Charlotte were very good. Would the Sox consider trading McCarthy and making Phillips the young guy in the rotation next year? I don't know; I'm just throwing out the possibility.

Or could Phillips take Cotts job as the second left-hander after Thornton in the bullpen? I'm pretty goddamn sure Boone Logan is NOT the answer.

PennStater98r
09-25-2006, 05:41 PM
I agree with you, fquaye149. Booing guys . . . is uncalled for no matter how frustrating the last month has been.

:bkoch: I'm so glad you guys feel that way - it takes a load off my mind.

:jaime You're glad...?

PennStater98r
09-25-2006, 05:44 PM
Seriously though, it wouldn't surprise me if after the season is over we find out that guys like Neal and Mark were playing with some sort of nagging injury - or that they're scheduled for some kind of "procedure" in the off season.

fquaye149
09-25-2006, 05:50 PM
:bkoch: I'm so glad you guys feel that way - it takes a load off my mind.

:jaime You're glad...?

I'm not specifically talking about Koch or Navarro (although Koch was never a dick about how bad he was)...I personally wouldn't boo them, but it certainly doesn't make me all that angry when people do.

I'm talking about Mark ****ing Buehrle. Surely you see how Mark Buehrle, a man who's done so much for this team, how when he gets booed it really really rubs me the wrong way.

JB98
09-25-2006, 05:52 PM
:bkoch: I'm so glad you guys feel that way - it takes a load off my mind.

:jaime You're glad...?

Koch and Navarro never did anything good in a White Sox uniform.

Guys like Buehrle and Cotts have been successful for us in the past. Buerhle has been so good for us that I can't ever imagine booing him.

PennStater98r
09-25-2006, 06:23 PM
I'm not specifically talking about Koch or Navarro (although Koch was never a dick about how bad he was)...I personally wouldn't boo them, but it certainly doesn't make me all that angry when people do.

I'm talking about Mark ****ing Buehrle. Surely you see how Mark Buehrle, a man who's done so much for this team, how when he gets booed it really really rubs me the wrong way.

Surely, (I hope) you see that I was simply trying to make a funny. I personally wouldn't boo Buehrle. I personally wouldn't boo Koch or Navarro either. However, I don't care if other do boo. I can say though - I would boo the hell out of Torii Hunter, Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Kerry Wood. I hate those guys with a passion. I probably would have booed A.J. back in the day too... but now he's probably my favorite player wearing a White Sox uniform.

fquaye149
09-25-2006, 06:32 PM
Surely, (I hope) you see that I was simply trying to make a funny. I personally wouldn't boo Buehrle. I personally wouldn't boo Koch or Navarro either. However, I don't care if other do boo. I can say though - I would boo the hell out of Torii Hunter, Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Kerry Wood. I hate those guys with a passion. I probably would have booed A.J. back in the day too... but now he's probably my favorite player wearing a White Sox uniform.

There's nothing funny about Koch and the 2003 season.

Besides his beard thing

palehozenychicty
09-25-2006, 06:34 PM
There's nothing funny about Koch and the 2003 season.

Besides his beard thing

Indeed.

Vernam
09-25-2006, 07:55 PM
I hate booing players like Cotts and Buehrle.

You paid your money, you have every right to boo

but to me that's chicken**** bush league, ungrateful hooey.

If I booed when drunk I'd wake up in the morning and be unwilling to look myself in the mirror.

It makes me physically nauseous to know that Buehrle is getting booed. That is horrible and tragic and disgraceful to White Sox fans everywhere.

Good God, the guy had a ****ty year but JESUS....have you no restraint?Couldn't agree more. We left our section in the bottom 8th yesterday because I didn't want my last memory of the season to be the ******* behind us yelling that Ozzie's a ****head for letting Cotts pitch. If it were earlier in the game, I'd have told him to shut up once and then called security if he persisted. Instead, we enjoyed a closer view of the team and fans saying goodbye, with not a negative comment to be heard.

As someone who has complained about the booing, I have to compliment the majority of yesterday's crowd, who stayed until the last despite its not being a close game. The reason was clear, and they got repaid by the warm response from Ozzie and the players. Between radio, the Internet, and fairweather fans at the park, players would be reasonable to conclude their fan base is made up of a bunch of raving idiots. So when we occasionally get the chance to prove otherwise, as we did yesterday, the Silent Majority needs to step up. I was proud to be a Sox fan on Sunday, despite the booing of Cotts.

Vernam

Soxworldchamps
09-25-2006, 08:00 PM
What about Heath Phillips? His numbers in Charlotte were very good. Would the Sox consider trading McCarthy and making Phillips the young guy in the rotation next year? I don't know; I'm just throwing out the possibility.

Or could Phillips take Cotts job as the second left-hander after Thornton in the bullpen? I'm pretty goddamn sure Boone Logan is NOT the answer.

I've talked about Phillips before. I don't think we should get rid of McCarthy to make room for him, but I do think we should call him up.

Except I think he's on the U.S. Olympic Team... I read about that somewhere. Won one of the qualifying games.

JB98
09-25-2006, 08:14 PM
I've talked about Phillips before. I don't think we should get rid of McCarthy to make room for him, but I do think we should call him up.

Except I think he's on the U.S. Olympic Team... I read about that somewhere. Won one of the qualifying games.

I just don't want two youngsters in the rotation at the same time. One guy in his first full season as a starter is enough for a team that has championship aspirations.

RadioheadRocks
09-27-2006, 07:50 PM
This is their job and this is the same thing as Jose missing El Duque. CRAP!They know that players come and go. If he misses him call him on the phone. It was lame when they brought it up about Jose and this is lame about Cotts too.


I totally agree, but lame as it is, it's still a possible explanation. That's all I was trying to say, I wasn't making any excuses for him.


BTW sorry for the belated response... was away from the computer for a few days.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-27-2006, 08:00 PM
I agree with you.

I recognize that fans have a right to boo -- which nobody has ever disputed, so I'm not sure why that needs to be reiterated -- and I recognize that a large number of fans will boo, out of anger, frustration, disappointment, drunkenness, or just ignorance. Booing expresses an emotion.

My own belief is that the players who have had bad seasons have enough crap on them, and booing doesn't do anything but rub it in. It's like seeing somebody slip and fall on the ice, and walking past him and saying 'man, are you stupid and clumsy!' It's just rude.

When MB got yanked in his last start, he sat in the dugout for a few minutes and the camera stayed on him and I swear he was about to cry. And Cotts apparently was nearly in tears yesterday. Why would anybody who's not a complete expletive want to make those guys feel worse? Their pride AND their careers have taken a huge hit this year. IMO someone would have to be a total loser to boo them.

I totally agree. If nothing else, how the hell does it help the situation?
(Sorry for the late post, I've been catching up on the work I've let go by being obsessed with the Sox for the last few weeks.)

PaulDrake
09-28-2006, 08:53 AM
If our minor league pitching is a barometer, our future is pretty bleak.

The Sox are a veteran team built to win now. Pickings are slim on the farm, putting more pressure on KW to trade our way back to the top. What worries me is that we could be in for a few lean years.

Lip Man 1
09-28-2006, 12:16 PM
Paul:

It depends on the size of the payroll.

100 million buys a lot more talent then 75 million.

Lip

goon
09-28-2006, 12:37 PM
The Sox are a veteran team built to win now. Pickings are slim on the farm, putting more pressure on KW to trade our way back to the top. What worries me is that we could be in for a few lean years.



that is certainly a possibility, however, it looks like kenny and the sox have a good system of trading for a lot of veteran talent, but mixing in some fresh blood from the minor leagues. while i agree that the sox havent been entirely successful in developing young players like some teams (cleveland, minnesota) now, it feels as though there are actually some guys from our AAA and AA teams worthy of the big league roster, where as in years before it was always joe borchard and ross gload. also, there look to be a few decent pitchers waiting in the wings, but with the rotation the sox have now, it's hard enough for one (McCarthy) to get a decent shot for 1 spot out of 5.

i wouldn't worry about this team getting old.