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Lip Man 1
09-24-2006, 10:15 PM
Another interesting story by Mark Gonzales. Includes Ozzie quotes about next season and how some players were reacting today in the clubhouse.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060924soxgamer,1,5705401.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

FielderJones
09-24-2006, 10:58 PM
Guillen already declared that one spring-training practice field will be used exclusively for players to work on bunts and hit-and-run plays.

That's a start. But the real trick will be getting a competitive pitching staff, top to bottom.

ondafarm
09-24-2006, 11:25 PM
That's a start. But the real trick will be getting a competitive pitching staff, top to bottom.

The White Sox have a solid starting staff and moving McCarthy in and replacing the weakest of a very strong five will do nothing but strengthen the staff. The bullpen, if spared too much work, too early should return to solid performance. Moving Haeger into McCarthy's role should actually strengthen the pen. A knuckleballer can throw everyday and the change of speed between a knuckleball and fastballs of either starters or Jenks should be make both much more effective.

fquaye149
09-25-2006, 12:03 AM
That's a start. But the real trick will be getting a competitive pitching staff, top to bottom.

The White Sox have a solid starting staff and moving McCarthy in and replacing the weakest of a very strong five will do nothing but strengthen the staff. The bullpen, if spared too much work, too early should return to solid performance. Moving Haeger into McCarthy's role should actually strengthen the pen. A knuckleballer can throw everyday and the change of speed between a knuckleball and fastballs of either starters or Jenks should be make both much more effective.


Goddamn, I love intelligent discourse.

But where is the "FIRE OZZIE!" "NOT ENOUGH HEART!" "BRING BACK ROWAND" contingency in wholly too rational thread!?!?

tebman
09-25-2006, 09:47 AM
Goddamn, I love intelligent discourse.

But where is the "FIRE OZZIE!" "NOT ENOUGH HEART!" "BRING BACK ROWAND" contingency in wholly too rational thread!?!?

:rolling:

Ol' No. 2
09-25-2006, 09:52 AM
The White Sox have a solid starting staff and moving McCarthy in and replacing the weakest of a very strong five will do nothing but strengthen the staff. The bullpen, if spared too much work, too early should return to solid performance. Moving Haeger into McCarthy's role should actually strengthen the pen. A knuckleballer can throw everyday and the change of speed between a knuckleball and fastballs of either starters or Jenks should be make both much more effective.Ozzie has already said that if he were to use Haeger in the bullpen, it would be long relief only. He doesn't want to use him in a one-inning situation because with a knuckleballer, you never really know what you're going to get.

Sox-o-matic
09-25-2006, 10:13 AM
Ozzie has already said that if he were to use Haeger in the bullpen, it would be long relief only. He doesn't want to use him in a one-inning situation because with a knuckleballer, you never really know what you're going to get.

I hope that doesn't have to happen. Unless JR decides he wants to cut payroll in the offseason, I'd rather see the Sox get a reliever who can get outs at any time in any role. LR = waste of a roster spot IMO.

BTW, I'm starting the 'sign Ray King bandwagon'. He's been a solid lefty reliever for years and he's also from Chicago. It would be great to have an option other than Cotts.

southside rocks
09-25-2006, 10:23 AM
I hope that doesn't have to happen. Unless JR decides he wants to cut payroll in the offseason, I'd rather see the Sox get a reliever who can get outs at any time in any role. LR = waste of a roster spot IMO.


You think a long reliever is a waste of a roster spot? Why? I'm curious, because I don't think it is at all. (Isn't that what McCarthy has been this year, BTW?)

A long reliever is a 'gotta have' guy because every now and then, either freak things are going to happen -- like Contreras falling down and rolling around in pain, clutching his leg -- or the starter is going to have a really off day and get lit up like a Christmas tree in the first few innings.

In those situations, rather than cobble together -- and overwork -- your one-inning guys, you bring in the long reliever.

Long relief is also a good way for a young pitcher to work his way up to starter status, and to work on problems in his pitching before he gets there.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-25-2006, 10:55 AM
The White Sox have a solid starting staff and moving McCarthy in and replacing the weakest of a very strong five will do nothing but strengthen the staff. The bullpen, if spared too much work, too early should return to solid performance. Moving Haeger into McCarthy's role should actually strengthen the pen. A knuckleballer can throw everyday and the change of speed between a knuckleball and fastballs of either starters or Jenks should be make both much more effective.

I don't know who these "very strong five" are, unless you're referring to '05. Contreras was good at the beginning of the year, but after he went on the DL he was pretty much crap, with a few good outings mixed in. Garland ended up being the best pitcher on the staff, and early in the season he looked awful. Buerhle . . . ?? And despite the problems of these three guys, I think most people would agree that the weakest of the starters is either Garcia or Vazquez. Also, there are questions (at least for me) about how McCarthy will respond by moving back into the rotation. He has been pretty bad lately, and as a reliever he probably has not been using all of his pitches. I am worried that he has developed some bad habits, lost control on some pitches, etc. I think he should have been a starter this year, but I am not certain he will be able to come back next year and perform well as a starter -- though I certainly hope so.

INSox56
09-25-2006, 11:46 AM
I don't know who these "very strong five" are, unless you're referring to '05. Contreras was good at the beginning of the year, but after he went on the DL he was pretty much crap, with a few good outings mixed in. Garland ended up being the best pitcher on the staff, and early in the season he looked awful. Buerhle . . . ?? And despite the problems of these three guys, I think most people would agree that the weakest of the starters is either Garcia or Vazquez. Also, there are questions (at least for me) about how McCarthy will respond by moving back into the rotation. He has been pretty bad lately, and as a reliever he probably has not been using all of his pitches. I am worried that he has developed some bad habits, lost control on some pitches, etc. I think he should have been a starter this year, but I am not certain he will be able to come back next year and perform well as a starter -- though I certainly hope so.

Buehrle is by far the worst pitcher on our staff this year, not Javy or Freddy. Have you seen any of the starts they've made in the last month+? Best on the staff. One month does not a season make, however they're both pitching amazingly well lately and Buehrle has been one of the worst starters in the majors this year (most hits and homers given up by any pitcher for instance)

TomBradley72
09-25-2006, 12:02 PM
Based on this article...I think Ozzie might be falling into the trap of assessing players from one great year (ie. 2005). It might be too early/impossible for him to say what he's really thinking...but I think we have to take a hard look at:

Uribe's .238 avg. marks a progressively shrinking BA (.283 to .252 to .238)
Pods' has now hit .268 since the 2005 All Star break with a 63% success rate in stolen bases in that span.
I'm not saying we should let Iguchi go...but he sure looks like he has lost any speed he had when playing in Japan. 15/21 in SB's over the last 1.5 seasons is not a speed guy. He'll be 32 in 2007.
We've lost Crede for just about a month...where he has not really contributed anything offensively. (.242-3-10)..his durability is a concern..especially with a chronic back issue.
Overall bullpen: After Jenks/Thornton/MacDougal..we need three arms...that's a pretty big deal.That's up to 7 roster spots worth looking at...plus a back up catcher and a 4th OF.

Ol' No. 2
09-25-2006, 12:05 PM
Buehrle is by far the worst pitcher on our staff this year, not Javy or Freddy. Have you seen any of the starts they've made in the last month+? Best on the staff. One month does not a season make, however they're both pitching amazingly well lately and Buehrle has been one of the worst starters in the majors this year (most hits and homers given up by any pitcher for instance)OTOH, I don't think you can give Freddy a pass for the first 7/8 of the season just because he managed to put together a few good starts at the end. Ditto for Vazquez. I believe KW is committed to putting McCarthy into the rotation next year. It will be interesting to watch who goes and what he can get for him. As disappointed as we've been in these five guys, there are a lot of teams who would love to have them.

The Critic
09-25-2006, 12:15 PM
BTW, I'm starting the 'sign Ray King bandwagon'. He's been a solid lefty reliever for years and he's also from Chicago. It would be great to have an option other than Cotts.

I wouldn't mind seeing "Burger" in an XXL Sox uniform at all.
He's been effective at that size for a while, so I don't think he'll eat his way out of the league.
It would depend on the price tag, as everything does, but if affordable I'd like that a lot.

INSox56
09-25-2006, 12:21 PM
OTOH, I don't think you can give Freddy a pass for the first 7/8 of the season just because he managed to put together a few good starts at the end. Ditto for Vazquez. I believe KW is committed to putting McCarthy into the rotation next year. It will be interesting to watch who goes and what he can get for him. As disappointed as we've been in these five guys, there are a lot of teams who would love to have them.

Oh exactly, I said that before in another thread or two. Vazquez I think you can take for more than this month cuz he's looked pretty damn good the whole year..just not for one inning. Since he's stopped that, I think he's grown to be really really nice for the team. But Garcia's SB against stats (as well as his body language/attitude towards it) just kill me...I don't think his pitching like cy young lately can make up for that, it's embarassing.

I can't wait for the Hot Stove things...I'm glad I"m not Kenny

INSox56
09-25-2006, 12:23 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing "Burger" in an XXL Sox uniform at all.
He's been effective at that size for a while, so I don't think he'll eat his way out of the league.
It would depend on the price tag, as everything does, but if affordable I'd like that a lot.

This is like the people saying we could trade Buehrle+players for Carpenter. These are the bases of their rotation...they are not going to trade them away...

The Critic
09-25-2006, 12:38 PM
This is like the people saying we could trade Buehrle+players for Carpenter. These are the bases of their rotation...they are not going to trade them away...
I got the idea from Sox-o-matic's post that King was a free agent.
If he is, the Sox should definitely look into signing him.
That's all I was saying, I didn't intend to start any "wacky" trade speculation.

Sox-o-matic
09-25-2006, 07:13 PM
You think a long reliever is a waste of a roster spot? Why? I'm curious, because I don't think it is at all. (Isn't that what McCarthy has been this year, BTW?)

Exactly, Brandon has been a waste of a roster spot.

A long reliever is a 'gotta have' guy because every now and then, either freak things are going to happen -- like Contreras falling down and rolling around in pain, clutching his leg -- or the starter is going to have a really off day and get lit up like a Christmas tree in the first few innings.

My definition of a 'gotta have' guy is someone who can get outs. LR's are usually innings eaters and nothing more. There is usually a very good reason why these guys aren't starting.

In those situations, rather than cobble together -- and overwork -- your one-inning guys, you bring in the long reliever.

Long relief is also a good way for a young pitcher to work his way up to starter status, and to work on problems in his pitching before he gets there.

Maybe according to you, but it hasn't worked at all this year.

Daver
09-25-2006, 07:17 PM
Long relievers in your bullpen are insurance against an injury to a starting pitcher, as they can be pressed into service as a spot stater, or replace a starter injured early in a game, Like Jose last week.

Sox-o-matic
09-25-2006, 07:18 PM
I got the idea from Sox-o-matic's post that King was a free agent.
If he is, the Sox should definitely look into signing him.
That's all I was saying, I didn't intend to start any "wacky" trade speculation.

This site says King will be a FA (http://www.mlb4u.com/freeagency.php?field=position). I saw it I think a year or so ago when someone from here posted a link to it, and it since then it has proven to be credible even though it isn't an official MLB site.

This is his eighth season, so I'm going to guess he will indeed be a FA.

He's been solid his whole career and is really the only name I saw that I think the Sox should make a serious run for as far as relievers go.

Brian26
09-25-2006, 07:53 PM
Another interesting story by Mark Gonzales. Includes Ozzie quotes about next season and how some players were reacting today in the clubhouse.
Lip

Am I missing something, or is there a part of the story missing now? All that articles does is quote Ozzie and has a non-quote from KW. Was there something removed about the players in the clubhouse?

ondafarm
09-25-2006, 08:32 PM
Based on this article...I think Ozzie might be falling into the trap of assessing players from one great year (ie. 2005). It might be too early/impossible for him to say what he's really thinking...but I think we have to take a hard look at:
Uribe's .238 avg. marks a progressively shrinking BA (.283 to .252 to .238)
Pods' has now hit .268 since the 2005 All Star break with a 63% success rate in stolen bases in that span.
I'm not saying we should let Iguchi go...but he sure looks like he has lost any speed he had when playing in Japan. 15/21 in SB's over the last 1.5 seasons is not a speed guy. He'll be 32 in 2007.
We've lost Crede for just about a month...where he has not really contributed anything offensively. (.242-3-10)..his durability is a concern..especially with a chronic back issue.
Overall bullpen: After Jenks/Thornton/MacDougal..we need three arms...that's a pretty big deal.That's up to 7 roster spots worth looking at...plus a back up catcher and a 4th OF.

Uribe - I think the Sox will be transitioning the SS spot, but probably keeping Uribe. Two reasons: the obvious guy is Cintron, but he has had trouble playing a whole season, keeping Uribe is cheap insurance. The saying is: you want to have your shortstop of the past, shortstop of the present and shortstop of the future on your team, but you need to have two of them.


Pods- will not be worth what they would have to pay him. Ozzie has been playing him so much so that Pods can sign somewhere else.


Iguchi -batting #2 is not really a speed position and anybody running in front of the White Sox #3, #4 and #5 hitters doesn't know what they are doing. His bad numbers come from few opportunities.


A real 3B backup for Crede is mandatory next season. Is Fields ready?



The bullpen was over-taxed this year. One or two changes, not wholesale.

southside rocks
09-25-2006, 08:48 PM
Uribe - I think the Sox will be transitioning the SS spot, but probably keeping Uribe. Two reasons: the obvious guy is Cintron, but he has had trouble playing a whole season, keeping Uribe is cheap insurance. The saying is: you want to have your shortstop of the past, shortstop of the present and shortstop of the future on your team, but you need to have two of them.

A real 3B backup for Crede is mandatory next season. Is Fields ready?


You think that Uribe is staying? Interesting -- I think that the Sox will replace him. Only because his hitting is SO streaky; I get the impression that he's fairly undisciplined as a batter, and swings freely and wildly most of the time -- which works well if you're Vladimir Guerraro (spelled that wrong, I'm sure), but not if you're Juan Uribe. And his fielding is either brilliant or he's running into people. He's got great talent but I think he doesn't put in the work to make himself as good as he could be.

So I think the club will get a more steady shortstop. Cintron's kind of pricey for a bench player, but he's versatile and can fill in at both short and second, so I think he'll stay.

It'll be an interesting winter, that's for sure!

Fields looked good tonight, in limited playing time.

guillen4life13
09-25-2006, 09:08 PM
Get rid of Uribe and bring back Tony G!

Chips
09-25-2006, 09:11 PM
The White Sox have a solid starting staff and moving McCarthy in and replacing the weakest of a very strong five will do nothing but strengthen the staff. The bullpen, if spared too much work, too early should return to solid performance. Moving Haeger into McCarthy's role should actually strengthen the pen. A knuckleballer can throw everyday and the change of speed between a knuckleball and fastballs of either starters or Jenks should be make both much more effective.

What has McCarthy shown that makes you think he will strength our starting rotation?

Daver
09-25-2006, 09:14 PM
What has McCarthy shown that makes you think he will strength our starting rotation?

Balls.


He's not afraid of the strike zone, it took Jon Garland four years to learn that.