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Dan H
09-24-2006, 09:04 AM
The White Sox will have to be make many decisions in the off season. Standing pat will not do after the second half disaster. One of the tougher decisons will be what to do with Mark Buehrle.

Buehrle has never had Cy Young stuff, but he has been the foundation of the staff since '01. He was good for 15 or 16 wins every season. Additionally, he put in many quality starts, getting into the eighth on numerous occasions. Not only was he giving the Sox a chance to win, he ate up innings and gave the bulllpen a chance to rest. Now he is lucky to get past the fifth and cannot be counted on to win any key game. This can no longer be just called a slump. A pitcher can't disappear for a half a season and continue to have a spot in the rotation.

Buehrle has been a favorite player of mine for years, but he has to produce. Trading him may not be the answer, and replacing him in other ways will not be easy. Regardless, it may be time to say good-bye.

BeefyD
09-24-2006, 09:07 AM
I remember Buehrle saying he wanted to play in St. Louis... we'll see if he gets his wish.

I wouldn't mind seeing Zito in pinstripes. He got lit up a couple of times this second half, but so did our boys. Other than Santana, most pitchers got rocked a few times.

chaerulez
09-24-2006, 09:14 AM
Stoip bringing up all this St. Louis talk when it comes to Buehrle. Every caller on the post game show or on the Score in general when it comes to Buehrle is either, "Yeah lets grant Mark his wish and trade him to St. Louis!" or the best one yesterday, "Do you think Mark is playing bad on purpose to get traded to the Cards?"

I don't know how the Rongey deals with calls like that, especially the latter, I would've told him to stop calling. Mark has pitched like a #3 this year (maybe a little worse in the second half). Let's not forget he made the all star team, so he did have an above average first half. He made what $8 million this year? He makes about $9 million this year? That's the going rate for a #3 starter these days. Obviously I think Mark is going to want a bigger contract. Unless Mark his a ERA of 6 next year, I have no problem with a Sox offering a 3 or 4 year deal at 11 million per.

BainesHOF
09-24-2006, 09:26 AM
Let's not forget he made the all star team...

Let's not forget Buehrle didn't deserve his all-star selection.

chaerulez
09-24-2006, 09:32 AM
Let's not forget Buehrle didn't deserve his all-star selection.

Neither did Mark Redman. Who else was that more deserving? Curt Schilling? Mark had what 8 or 9 wins at the time with a ERA around 3.50? I don't think it was unfair that he made the team.

fusillirob1983
09-24-2006, 09:35 AM
The team was chosen before he gave up all those runs against the Cubs. He had something like a 9-3 record with an ERA around 3.20

cheezheadsoxfan
09-24-2006, 09:39 AM
And A-Rod went instead of Crede and didn't look too great as I recall.:rolleyes:

Vernam
09-24-2006, 09:39 AM
I don't see KW trading him to an AL team. But NL, maybe.

If, in 2004, someone had told me Garland would be locked up now but Buehrle would be on the bubble, I never would've believed it. Assuming he's not hurt, Buehrle has a steep hill to climb. You wouldn't think going from about 91 mph to 88 mph would make such a difference, but maybe it has. Ever since the last game at Wrigley -- day after the AJ homer there, when we felt invincible -- Buehrle has looked like batting practice more often than not.

He deserves a lot of credit for having set the tone of this team, IMO, and for that reason I don't think the Sox will casually let him go. Some people have said he'll surely bounce back, so this would be a good time to lock him up at a lower price. But the way he's pitched is SO bad, I don't see how even a low-cost multi-year contract could be anything but a huge risk. Just think of how much 2006 has hurt his trade value.

Vernam

cbotnyse
09-24-2006, 09:43 AM
Stoip bringing up all this St. Louis talk when it comes to Buehrle. Every caller on the post game show or on the Score in general when it comes to Buehrle is either, "Yeah lets grant Mark his wish and trade him to St. Louis!" or the best one yesterday, "Do you think Mark is playing bad on purpose to get traded to the Cards?"

I don't know how the Rongey deals with calls like that, especially the latter, I would've told him to stop calling. Mark has pitched like a #3 this year (maybe a little worse in the second half). Let's not forget he made the all star team, so he did have an above average first half. He made what $8 million this year? He makes about $9 million this year? That's the going rate for a #3 starter these days. Obviously I think Mark is going to want a bigger contract. Unless Mark his a ERA of 6 next year, I have no problem with a Sox offering a 3 or 4 year deal at 11 million per.:o: I hate playing GM, but I do not think he deserves a contract like that. My feeling is MB will be delt somewhere.

MadetoOrta
09-24-2006, 09:49 AM
Put me in the column that reads:

1. Exercise the option for next year.
2. Shut him down until January [assuming there are no undisclosed injuries]
3. Be willing to listen to offers - as I would with anyone on the club
4. Be patient. The key to a successful change of speed pitcher is having the ability to bring a 93 mph fastball every so often. Yesterday, Mark jammed someone in the 1st inning that turned out to be a bloop hit. Lyons correctly said "that was a great pitch."
5. Mark B is a lefty version of Greg Maddux. I wouldn't be so quick to trade him or let him go.

CLR01
09-24-2006, 10:20 AM
I wouldn't be so quick to trade him or let him go.


Really? Then you just don't belong here. We're all about trading players who have two bad (1 really bad) months, it's why we believe we need to turn over the entire pitching staff. We do make exceptions for crappy gap fillers like Rowand and Graffanino because, well, nobody really knows why but if you let them go you'll never hear the end of it.

Brian26
09-24-2006, 11:02 AM
:o: I hate playing GM, but I do not think he deserves a contract like that. My feeling is MB will be delt somewhere.

Buehrle's stock, as we speak, is the lowest it has been since early 2003. It doesn't make sense to trade him now when we can't get a fair market value for him. There's a good possibility he's just burnt out right now and needs a winter to rest up.

If anyone gets traded, it should be the guy with the highest market value right now: Freddy.

oeo
09-24-2006, 11:27 AM
The White Sox will have to be make many decisions in the off season. Standing pat will not do after the second half disaster. One of the tougher decisons will be what to do with Mark Buehrle.

Buehrle has never had Cy Young stuff, but he has been the foundation of the staff since '01. He was good for 15 or 16 wins every season. Additionally, he put in many quality starts, getting into the eighth on numerous occasions. Not only was he giving the Sox a chance to win, he ate up innings and gave the bulllpen a chance to rest. Now he is lucky to get past the fifth and cannot be counted on to win any key game. This can no longer be just called a slump. A pitcher can't disappear for a half a season and continue to have a spot in the rotation.

Buehrle has been a favorite player of mine for years, but he has to produce. Trading him may not be the answer, and replacing him in other ways will not be easy. Regardless, it may be time to say good-bye.

If the Sox were smart, they would sign him while he's cheap. He has a bad season and all of a sudden this is Mark Buehrle? It's all about his location, and if you notice, he's not locating...except belt high, right down the middle.

This season was a fluke, I guarantee it. The Sox will regret if they get rid of Buehrle. Honestly, with a whole offseason off, I think this whole staff can pitch to their potential next year. I'd actually like to see Kenny keep the rotation intact; and no, I'm not crazy. Who's to say Freddy's velocity is totally gone? His shortened offseason due to the WBC could have been the problem. I'm not saying it is, but you can just as easily say this. Vazquez is finally becoming the guy we thought he would be all season. As I said before, Buehrle will be back; and Garland really hasn't had problems this year. The only guy I'm worried about is Contreras, and his age. He has been injured twice this year...another year older and who knows. I can see Freddy gone for some his comments this year...but, imagine the guy with his velocity and his new pitch....

100 Year Itch
09-24-2006, 11:32 AM
http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/glemperer2.jpg

"Buehrle?"

http://www.public.iastate.edu/%7Ejhale/Soc134/Crowd.jpg

"..."

http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/glemperer2.jpg

"Buehrle?!?"

http://forwardelectronics.com/Guys%20say%20Thumbs%20down.jpg

"..."

http://www.theboxset.com/images/reviewcaptures/892cap012.jpg

"Buehrle!!"

caulfield12
09-24-2006, 12:09 PM
Because none of these pitchers in the FA class could you definitely say..."they are going to have a better season in the AL than Mark next year."

Are the majority of these guys even going to be better than a 4/5th starter?

1. Jason Schmidt
2. Barry Zito
3. Mike Mussina (KW should look at, has improved last three season, but NY will probably make a full-court press if healthy)

4. Tom Glavine (age, coming from NL)
5. Andy Pettitte (age, injuries, coming from NL)
6. Miguel Batista (coming from NL, very inconsistent career)
7. Jamie Moyer ("old Buehrle," he might make as much sense to us as Kenny Rogers to the Tigers, I know he's ancient, but I think he can still pitch)

8. V. Padilla (yeah, like that will ever happen...we said it about AJ, but?)
9. G. Maddux (don't see it)
10. W. Williams (interestingly enough, he makes as much sense as anyone...although he is likely destined for the Astros)

11. Lilly, Ted (decent stats, but is he an upgrade over ANYONE on our staff?)

12. Suppan, Jeff (NL starter with average stuff)
13. Meche, Gil (some posters have loved this guy for years, a candidate for "Cooper Camp" perhaps, has the stuff

Clemens and Radke look to be done...

So, our best bets are, gasp, Mussina, Moyer, Woody Williams, Ted Lilly and Gil Meche.

I think the value of all our starters just doubled in my mind, especially Mark, Freddy and Javier.

Buehrle is in the Top 10 career ERA leaders for AL starters. I think we have to exercise the option for next year, but hold off on the multi-year extension for fear of crippling the payroll down the line with an untradeable pitcher.

Other than that, you have Mark Mulder, who probably will go back to the A's on a Frank Thomas/incentives-based deal.

Sox-o-matic
09-24-2006, 12:12 PM
No mention of Sidney Ponson?

caulfield12
09-24-2006, 12:17 PM
And the crapshoot KW is faced with is even larger with middle relievers...

How about guys who can log some innings? These are the free agents with more than 60 innings thrown:
Ron Villone
Ryan Franklin
Darren Oliver
David Weathers
Aaron Fultz
Jose Mesa
Mike Stanton
Brian Meadows
How about the players who'll get big contracts on the strength of their 2006 ERA? These guys are under 3.50:
Jamie Walker - 1.82
Rheal Cormier - 2.35
Chad Bradford - 2.82
Darren Oliver - 2.90
Roberto Hernandez - 3.04
Steve Kline - 3.30
Trever Miller - 3.32
Jose Mesa - 3.39
Alan Embree - 3.45
This group has allowed less than 1.30 baserunners per innings (WHIP):
Jamie Walker - 1.03
Russ Springer - 1.05
Darren Oliver - 1.07
Chad Bradford - 1.10
Trever Miller - 1.13
Doug Brocail - 1.15
Keith Foulke - 1.27
Alan Embree - 1.28
Danys Baez - 1.29
Toughest to hit this year? Russ Springer. Best control? Keith Foulke. Strikeout king? Trever Miller. Home run prevention? Doug Brocail, Chad Bradford, and Mike Stanton.
One of the best measures of an effective reliever is their command, or K/BB. The following have a K/BB over 3:
Keith Foulke
Chris Hammond
Trever Miller
Jamie Walker
Alan Embree
Chad Bradford
Who's pitched in the highest leverage situations, according to Baseball Prospectus?
1. Mike Timlin
2. Alan Embree
3. Arthur Rhodes
4. Steve Kline
5. Mike Stanton

from mlbtraderumors.com


My thoughts...
Interestingly enough, Bradford, Foulke, Hernandez and Embree all have Sox ties in their past.

Baez, Mesa, Meadows, Foulke, Hernandez are closers/former closers.

Once again, the same problems, do we know for a fact that someone like Jamie Walker will have a better season than N. Cotts in 2007, and would that justify paying $4-5 million a season for a second lefty?

I always liked Steve Kline before he flaked out the last couple of years.

But, once again, there's no "sure bet" here for KW either. Mike Timlin's name came up before last season, he would be an obvious improvement over a David Riske?

caulfield12
09-24-2006, 12:20 PM
No mention of Sidney Ponson?


Hey, the Cardinals are going to the playoffs with Jeff Weaver....

The other thing is, the top 3-5 guys are going to be getting $13-16 million dollars per season.

Is one of those Top 3-5 guys worth "1.5 Mark Buehrles"? Especially when you factor everything he's done for this franchise, that he was one of the few success stories of our minor league system (in terms of pitchers)...I just can't see KW casting him adrift and getting nothing in return for a pitcher of his caliber.

soxfanreggie
09-24-2006, 12:42 PM
I would say that MB will be back on form. Give him the offseason to rest up, and he will be back to his old self with some rest and some work on his ball placement.

DeadMoney
09-24-2006, 02:15 PM
I don't know what has already been said, but I'll add this:
You can't take your only LHP out of the rotation, UNLESS you have a BETTER LHP option (not better physically, but it also could be considered a financial move too) waiting behind that move. Buehrle will be here next year, just because we're not going to find a better option (and hopefully he'll be 100%, because IMO there's no way he was 100% this year).

TheKittle
09-24-2006, 02:18 PM
Personally I can't stand MB. He's such a ****ing crybaby. The Rangers cheat, Quest Tec sucks. It's never MB's fault. It's always somebody's else fault. Grow up, shut up and pitch instead of crying all the ****ing time.

With that said unless somebody offers a great package in return the Sox should not trade MB.

ondafarm
09-24-2006, 02:22 PM
Really? Then you just don't belong here. We're all about trading players who have two bad (1 really bad) months, it's why we believe we need to turn over the entire pitching staff. We do make exceptions for crappy gap fillers like Rowand and Graffanino because, well, nobody really knows why but if you let them go you'll never hear the end of it.

You forgot your teal.

TDog
09-24-2006, 02:28 PM
...

I wouldn't mind seeing Zito in pinstripes. He got lit up a couple of times this second half, but so did our boys. Other than Santana, most pitchers got rocked a few times.

Some people are wary of Zito believing he has been overused in the last couple of years and may not have much left. Maybe people wonder the same thing about Buehrle, but Zito could be in line to be the next huge free-agent bust.

LuvSox
09-24-2006, 02:33 PM
Personally I can't stand MB. He's such a ****ing crybaby. The Rangers cheat, Quest Tec sucks. It's never MB's fault. It's always somebody's else fault. Grow up, shut up and pitch instead of crying all the ****ing time.


Yeah, he's a crybaby. Especially when he got the save in game 3 after starting game 2 last October. *****.

Don't give up on Mark, he just needs a rest. He's going to kick ass for us in '07.

caulfield12
09-24-2006, 02:40 PM
Some people are wary of Zito believing he has been overused in the last couple of years and may not have much left. Maybe people wonder the same thing about Buehrle, but Zito could be in line to be the next huge free-agent bust.


Look at the first three seasons for Zito and compare them to the last 3-4. Look at his innings pitched...and what has happened with Mulder and Hudson since leaving.

That's worth $15 million per season?

Zito's fastball is slower than Mark's.

It would be more logical to keep Buehrle and/or pay Jamie Moyer and Ted Lilly $15 million (combined) than $15 million to Zito.

The White Sox have never gone after a bigtime FA like this for 4-5 years.

While we're dreaming, we might as well as well spend the same amount on Daisuke Matsuzaka.

Check out this video...amazing stuff. You probably remember him from the WBC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAwmW2S-xX4&search=Matsuzaka

He has a 96-97 MPH fastball, a devastating curve and what looks like a Rivera-cutter combined with a Takatsu-frisbee that they call the "gyroball."

I would rather ditch Vazquez and Garcia and put all that money into Matsuzaka, with Brandon as the fifth starter.

CLR01
09-24-2006, 02:45 PM
You forgot your teal.


:o: :nuts:

ondafarm
09-24-2006, 03:27 PM
Look at the first three seasons for Zito and compare them to the last 3-4. Look at his innings pitched...and what has happened with Mulder and Hudson since leaving.

That's worth $15 million per season?

Zito's fastball is slower than Mark's.

It would be more logical to keep Buehrle and/or pay Jamie Moyer and Ted Lilly $15 million (combined) than $15 million to Zito.

The White Sox have never gone after a bigtime FA like this for 4-5 years.

While we're dreaming, we might as well as well spend the same amount on Daisuke Matsuzaka.

Check out this video...amazing stuff. You probably remember him from the WBC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAwmW2S-xX4&search=Matsuzaka

He has a 96-97 MPH fastball, a devastating curve and what looks like a Rivera-cutter combined with a Takatsu-frisbee that they call the "gyroball."

I would rather ditch Vazquez and Garcia and put all that money into Matsuzaka, with Brandon as the fifth starter.

I've seen Matsuzaka pitch. I don't think his stuff should be called 'devastating'. He doesn't really disguise his stuff particularly well either.

caulfield12
09-24-2006, 03:31 PM
I've seen Matsuzaka pitch. I don't think his stuff should be called 'devastating'. He doesn't really disguise his stuff particularly well either.


Who on the FA list has better stuff?

Jason Schmidt? Hmmm...no.

He's going to get $15-17 million per season. Whether he's the next Hideki Irabu or Jose Contreras, we'll just have to wait and see.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2006, 04:37 PM
Caulfield:

There are three or four guys on your list I'd take a shot on in a heartbeat. I mean just about ANYONE is better then Logan and Cotts right now.

Lip

caulfield12
09-24-2006, 04:55 PM
Caulfield:

There are three or four guys on your list I'd take a shot on in a heartbeat. I mean just about ANYONE is better then Logan and Cotts right now.

Lip

I would take Foulke or Baez from the RH side (although Bradford would be okay too) and either Kline or Rhodes from the LH side.

And I wouldn't feel particularly confident about any of them having great seasons.

Who would be your picks? Timlin still?

Sox-o-matic
09-24-2006, 05:21 PM
While we're dreaming, we might as well as well spend the same amount on Daisuke Matsuzaka.

Check out this video...amazing stuff. You probably remember him from the WBC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAwmW2S-xX4&search=Matsuzaka

He has a 96-97 MPH fastball, a devastating curve and what looks like a Rivera-cutter combined with a Takatsu-frisbee that they call the "gyroball."

I would rather ditch Vazquez and Garcia and put all that money into Matsuzaka, with Brandon as the fifth starter.

After watching that, that isn't such a bad idea. BTW, that gyroball looks like a slider to me. Nasty stuff.

October26
09-24-2006, 05:27 PM
Mark Buerhle is the heart of this Sox team and one of the our leaders. He had a bad year in '06 but I expect him to rebound in '07.

DMarte708
09-24-2006, 10:20 PM
Mark Buerhle is the heart of this Sox team and one of the our leaders. He had a bad year in '06 but I expect him to rebound in '07.
Considering his troubles have extended the entire second half, I'm not so certain a rebound is guaranteed.

I really wish Williams would make the smart decision and deal Buehrle. Look at it like this -- either way next season we're going to be in a tough position.

Buehrle pitches comparable to 05' and he's going to command a huge salary. Are we willing to pay him 11-13 million over 4 years? Is no one worried about how all the innings may effect his arm come year 2-3 in the deal?

Buehrle pitches closer to his totals of this season, he'll command less, but it'll be obvious health issues linger. For all the value he once had, we'll have come away with nothing when he leaves.

Between Garcia and Buehrle, I'd rather trade Garcia -- but Buehrle will command more in return.

DumpJerry
09-24-2006, 10:29 PM
Ok, if (and this is a big "if") we trade Mark, we better have a high quality LHP ready to step into the rotation. Don't tell me it will be Barry Zito. It won't be Zito. Zito gave up a lot of walks this year and his agent is Borasssss.

If Mark gets a phone call that tells him he can Slip 'N Slide next year and apologizes for putting a stop to it this year, he will be fine. Mark is the class clown and when he was told no more Slip 'N Slide, the fun went out of being on the team. Mark needs to be having a good time to do a good job. Plain and simple.

100 Year Itch
09-24-2006, 10:39 PM
Sad to think that Buehrle cost himself 9-12 million over the course of the next three years with his performance this season.

Actually, no it isn't. Screw these overpaid brats.

caulfield12
09-24-2006, 10:44 PM
Ok, if (and this is a big "if") we trade Mark, we better have a high quality LHP ready to step into the rotation. Don't tell me it will be Barry Zito. It won't be Zito. Zito gave up a lot of walks this year and his agent is Borasssss.

If Mark gets a phone call that tells him he can Slip 'N Slide next year and apologizes for putting a stop to it this year, he will be fine. Mark is the class clown and when he was told no more Slip 'N Slide, the fun went out of being on the team. Mark needs to be having a good time to do a good job. Plain and simple.

I think that and the haircuts thing is being a little overdone...I can't believe that not playing on the tarp caused him to lose 3 MPH from his fastball, his location and his confidence all in one fell swoop. You keep waiting to find out there is some fraying/damage in the shoulder/rotator cuff that would explain this season, as happened with Cliff.

Cotts' velocity was down this year, so was Garcia.

Hopefully, we can get Joe, Thome, Mark, Konerko, Bobby Jenks, MacDougal and Contreras 100% healthy going into next season. While we haven't used the DL much, we have a team of walking wounded right now.

TheKittle
09-24-2006, 10:49 PM
Yeah, he's a crybaby. Especially when he got the save in game 3 after starting game 2 last October. *****.

Don't give up on Mark, he just needs a rest. He's going to kick ass for us in '07.


Talk about 2006 and his crappy second half. Nice fraud ace of the staff.

caulfield12
09-24-2006, 11:04 PM
Talk about 2006 and his crappy second half. Nice fraud ace of the staff.


All of the starters let this team down severely at different points in the season.

Freddy and Javier made more money than Mark, they're not exactly innocent...it would have been nice if Freddy pitched liked this when we really needed to beat the Runelvys Hernandezes and Luke Hudsons of the world in July and August. Did anyone notice what DET did to him today in just one inning? We lost to the guy twice in the second half. And Adam Bernero as well...

kevingrt
09-24-2006, 11:14 PM
Do we have to pick up an option on Buehrle after the year? For some reason I have a feeling we have to. And does anyone know how much that option is for?

Domeshot17
09-24-2006, 11:25 PM
(1) Buehlre will be back. I wouldnt mind trading him (especially if the STL crap is true, and we could package him and specs for carpenter) if the deal was right because I think he really let us down. My biggest problem with Buehlre is as stated (a) he seems to make a lot of excuses. and (b) he has always had a high whip. I dont think you can call him the left handed Greg Maddux, he will never be that quality, but he was an easy #1 on 95% of pro teams before 2006.

(2) The biggest issue with buehlre, I dont care if Freddy Sucked, Vaz Sucked, Garland Sucked, if everyone sucked. I dont care if they make more money then him. I care about him being our #1. Being the ace means you are the stopper. When things go bad, you win. When your team HAS TO WIN, you WIN. When we needed Buehlre most, he laid the biggest egg of them all. Vazquez was a # 4 or 5 starter. so winning with a high 4 ear is fine. Wins are what you want.

(3) I love Buehlre, but he should not have been near the ASG. he was 8-4 at the time with a 3.74 era. Liriano was like 9-1 with a 1.99 era. Should have been a no brainer.

Buehlre needs to come back and be a leader next year. He probably opens the year as number 1, because of his past, but he better get his crap together. If you want to throw neil cotts under the bus for a bad half year, then buehlre better be lying next to him.

Jjav829
09-24-2006, 11:27 PM
Buehrle will be fine. There are 29 other teams that would jump to have Buehrle on their team. Is he untouchable? No, of course not. But unless another team offers up a worthwhile deal, Buehrle should be back.

MisterB
09-24-2006, 11:40 PM
For those of you theorizing that half a season is too long to be a slump, please compare Paul Konerko's first half of 2003 vs. all his numbers since and get back to us.

Britt Burns
09-25-2006, 12:09 AM
MB needs to be with the Sox. He had a poor half in 2003 and bounced back, and he is one of the leaders of the team. This year is the least amount of innings he has pitched since 2000, so hopefully his arm strength will be up. More than that, MB is the kind of guy who can make adjustments...sure this is a tough year, but he has shown and meant enough to the Sox that he deserves every benefit of the doubt and every chance to regain the form that made him our ace since 2001.

hold2dibber
09-25-2006, 07:58 AM
Talk about 2006 and his crappy second half. Nice fraud ace of the staff.

This kind of venom for a guy with his track record (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4454) is ridiculous. The guy has been an absolute workhorse for the team for the last 6 years. He's logged HUGE innings, won tons of games and been the anchor of the staff. He has a lousy few months, but there's no indication at all that he's dogging it or doesn't care or isn't trying. For whatever reason (very likely overuse) he just doesn't have it. And fans like you and many others are ripping the guy. It's pathetic - he doesn't deserve it. Guys who don't try and don't care - rip them all you want. But the Sox best pitcher for the last 6 years, the anchor to the rotation that won the first WS ring for this franchise in nearly a century, the guy who is still giving it all he has even though he's struggling? *****.

mccoydp
09-25-2006, 10:04 AM
I don't worry too much about Mark; I think he'll be fine next year. He's been pretty dependable until the second half this year.

Jose Contreras worries me the most; he seems to be the most mentally and physically fragile of the bunch.

A lot of us bitch about Freddy Garcia, but he's pretty much consistent with his career stats this year.

minutia
09-25-2006, 10:49 AM
This kind of venom for a guy with his track record (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4454) is ridiculous. The guy has been an absolute workhorse for the team for the last 6 years. He's logged HUGE innings, won tons of games and been the anchor of the staff. He has a lousy few months, but there's no indication at all that he's dogging it or doesn't care or isn't trying. For whatever reason (very likely overuse) he just doesn't have it. And fans like you and many others are ripping the guy. It's pathetic - he doesn't deserve it. Guys who don't try and don't care - rip them all you want. But the Sox best pitcher for the last 6 years, the anchor to the rotation that won the first WS ring for this franchise in nearly a century, the guy who is still giving it all he has even though he's struggling? *****.

I could not agree with you more. I think just getting rid of him because of a few bad months would be foolish. More of a can't see the forest through the trees move.

INSox56
09-25-2006, 12:17 PM
I don't worry too much about Mark; I think he'll be fine next year. He's been pretty dependable until the second half this year.

Jose Contreras worries me the most; he seems to be the most mentally and physically fragile of the bunch.

A lot of us bitch about Freddy Garcia, but he's pretty much consistent with his career stats this year.

Do those stats include a 95% success rate against for steals? I love Freddy's stuff lately, he's looked unhittable with that splitter he just happened to come up with, but for christ sake, if they get a baserunner on who's remotely faster than Konerko, he'll be on third before you know it (see: Ichiro stealing 2nd and 3rd yesterday without AJ being able to even flinch). Granted that is Ichiro, but still come on.

Contreras worries me the most really, his age is such a huge issue as we're seeing with some of his injuries this year.

I think this is just a crazy year for Buehrle...I mean how can you go from being so solid to giving up the most hits and home runs of ANY PITCHER in the majors....he'll be back. At least remotely better than this year.

mccoydp
09-25-2006, 12:21 PM
Do those stats include a 95% success rate against for steals? I love Freddy's stuff lately, he's looked unhittable with that splitter he just happened to come up with, but for christ sake, if they get a baserunner on who's remotely faster than Konerko, he'll be on third before you know it (see: Ichiro stealing 2nd and 3rd yesterday without AJ being able to even flinch).

LOL, no argument on the steals with Freddy...was pretty much referring to his W-L and ERA.

Mark is the MAN on the pickoff to 1st!

INSox56
09-25-2006, 12:24 PM
LOL, no argument on the steals with Freddy...was pretty much referring to his W-L and ERA.

Mark is the MAN on the pickoff to 1st!

Oh that's what I figured you meant with stats...what I meant was that the OTHER stats can't be ignored either.

Foulke You
09-25-2006, 12:48 PM
I would take Foulke or Baez from the RH side (although Bradford would be okay too) and either Kline or Rhodes from the LH side.

And I wouldn't feel particularly confident about any of them having great seasons.

Who would be your picks? Timlin still?
I'd love to have Timlin but I doubt very much that the Red Sox would let him get away. They are going to need him to anchor that bullpen now more than ever, especially if they lose Foulke and also convert Papelbon to a starter as has been hinted at. There is some crazy talk of converting Clement to a closer in Boston but I think if they go ahead with their plans on making Papelbon start, Timlin is the logical choice to inherit the closer job.

I think the Sox need to add at least TWO quality veteran arms to that bullpen. My picks would be Arthur Rhodes for the lefties (had a great year in the AL Central in '05 for the Tribe) and either Chad Bradford or Keith Foulke as a right handed setup man taking over the "Politte" role. I think a bullpen that has a core of Rhodes/Bradford(or Foulke)/Thornton/MacDougal/Jenks would go a long way towards solving our volatile bullpen situation. I'd also like to see the Sox consider keeping Haegar in the pen as a long relief man.

caulfield12
09-25-2006, 02:47 PM
I'd love to have Timlin but I doubt very much that the Red Sox would let him get away. They are going to need him to anchor that bullpen now more than ever, especially if they lose Foulke and also convert Papelbon to a starter as has been hinted at. There is some crazy talk of converting Clement to a closer in Boston but I think if they go ahead with their plans on making Papelbon start, Timlin is the logical choice to inherit the closer job.

I think the Sox need to add at least TWO quality veteran arms to that bullpen. My picks would be Arthur Rhodes for the lefties (had a great year in the AL Central in '05 for the Tribe) and either Chad Bradford or Keith Foulke as a right handed setup man taking over the "Politte" role. I think a bullpen that has a core of Rhodes/Bradford(or Foulke)/Thornton/MacDougal/Jenks would go a long way towards solving our volatile bullpen situation. I'd also like to see the Sox consider keeping Haegar in the pen as a long relief man.

I don't know what it is with ex-Sox pitchers, the only one I wouldn't be too excited about is Roberto, simply due to his age...if we could Baez or Timlin, that would be great, OTOH we don't have an unlimited budget. Jose Mesa, not so interested in, although he could be the man in set-up.

We're already assuming MacDougal for the Politte role next year, so you can't just throw around Eyre/Howry money for someone that wouldn't be an obvious upgrade over Mike (which means a former closer). Sure, if there's a Tom Gordon, BJ Ryan or Duaner Sanchez available, but they won't come cheap, either via trade of FA.

Hitmen77
09-25-2006, 02:59 PM
MB needs to be with the Sox. He had a poor half in 2003 and bounced back, and he is one of the leaders of the team. This year is the least amount of innings he has pitched since 2000, so hopefully his arm strength will be up. More than that, MB is the kind of guy who can make adjustments...sure this is a tough year, but he has shown and meant enough to the Sox that he deserves every benefit of the doubt and every chance to regain the form that made him our ace since 2001.

This doesn't mean he's thrown fewer pitches. He used to be very efficient and would go well into a game before reaching 100 pitches. I suspect MB has thrown just as many pitches this year - he just has been doing it in 5 2/3 innings instead of 8 innings.:(:

caulfield12
09-25-2006, 03:10 PM
This doesn't mean he's thrown fewer pitches. He used to be very efficient and would go well into a game before reaching 100 pitches. I suspect MB has thrown just as many pitches this year - he just has been doing it in 5 2/3 innings instead of 8 innings.:(:

Not true...also, I think they shut Buehrle down so his ERA wouldn't go over 5.
Pitches thrown this year down 18% from last year.

Pitches thrown by MB:

2006 3,104
2005 3,478 + 297 in post-season=3,775
2004 3,697
2003 3,508
2002 3,501

I think 2004 and 2005 just killed him this year, just an opinion.

CLR01
09-25-2006, 03:36 PM
Not true...also, I think they shut Buehrle down so his ERA wouldn't go over 5.
Pitches thrown this year down 18% from last year.

Pitches thrown by MB:

2006 3,104
2005 3,478 + 297 in post-season=3,775
2004 3,697
2003 3,508
2002 3,501

I think 2004 and 2005 just killed him this year, just an opinion.


You can't include playoff games in those numbers. Even if he pitches as well as he did last year there is no guarantee that they play those extra playoff games. His PC is down 10% from last year and 8% if he wasn't scratched from his final start.

simbro
09-25-2006, 04:18 PM
there is no way i would give up on buerhle after this year. if we gave up on any of our players because of a bad half of a season, we would not have any of the guys we currently have. even during the 2nd half he has had some games that showed what he used to do. to me, he just looks tired right now and this offseason will be good for him.

DickAllen72
09-25-2006, 05:23 PM
Jose Contreras worries me the most; he seems to be the most mentally and physically fragile of the bunch.

No.

hold2dibber
09-25-2006, 05:23 PM
You can't include playoff games in those numbers. Even if he pitches as well as he did last year there is no guarantee that they play those extra playoff games. His PC is down 10% from last year and 8% if he wasn't scratched from his final start.

Huh? He actually threw those pitches in the playoffs last year. Why wouldn't you include them?

doctorlecter
09-25-2006, 06:56 PM
Mark has a .343 BAA after the break. Something is wrong. However, cutting him loose when you have him playing for his one-year option at 9 mil is insane. There is no other pitcher out there that can give you what a healthy Mark can at anywhere near that price, not to mention you'd have to give a multi-tear deal. Come hell or high water, MB is a Sox pitcher through 2007.

mccoydp
09-25-2006, 07:10 PM
No.

Well, I gotta say "Yes".

He wasn't "all there" with the Yankees, nor with the Sox for the time he was with them in '04, the first half of '05, and '06 after the nerve injury.

To me, there seems to be a loneliness and a sadness in his eyes; maybe this is influenced by the struggles he endured while apart from his family.

I think he really benefitted from whatever positive influence that El Duque provided him.

He has not been consistently sharp since his return from the injury this year; shades of his previous years. That being said, I wish him nothing but the best in his return to top form next season. He has wicked stuff and, as we all know, can be completely dominant when he's on his 'A' game.

Domeshot17
09-25-2006, 09:19 PM
whats the problem with buehlre?when you throw an 87 mph fastball and locate it and never miss, you are golden

but a D3 baseball team will kill you if you throw you a 87 mph fastball that is right down the pipe

and the pitches and IP are down because he is getting shelled. When you pitch well, you get to throw deeper into games, when you give up 8 runs in 4 innings, you dont.

guillensmofia
09-25-2006, 09:31 PM
after tonights game, you never know what kind of surprises will rise next season.

BanditJimmy
09-26-2006, 12:02 AM
This quote here boiled my blood:


A quote by Buehrle on Chicagosports.com
"I would [like to pitch] because I'd like to hopefully get a win and be 13-13," Buehrle said Monday. "But the way the season is going, I'm not sure if any good can come out of it.

Sounds like a guy thinking about his own stats?


Note to Buehrle:

Maybe you should have not pissed the bed for half of those 13 other losses and the Sox would still have something to play for .

caulfield12
09-26-2006, 07:44 AM
This quote here boiled my blood:


A quote by Buehrle on Chicagosports.com


Sounds like a guy thinking about his own stats?


Note to Buehrle:

Maybe you should have not pissed the bed for half of those 13 other losses and the Sox would still have something to play for .

I'd think he would rather keep his ERA at 4.99 than risk putting it over the 5 mark, which would harm his chances a lot more than being 1 game under .500 if (for some odd reason) the Sox didn't pick up his option.

mrwag
09-26-2006, 09:29 AM
So why exactly is he shut down now and missing his last start?

southside rocks
09-26-2006, 09:59 AM
This quote here boiled my blood:


A quote by Buehrle on Chicagosports.com


Sounds like a guy thinking about his own stats?


Note to Buehrle:

Maybe you should have not pissed the bed for half of those 13 other losses and the Sox would still have something to play for .


Oh please -- a guy who's been pitching in the bigs for 7 years wants to finish at .500 in what's been the most disastrous season of his career, and it's "thinking about his own stats"? That's just silly.

And can we have a moratorium on the phrase "pissed the bed"? Maybe because I'm a girl, but I've never been able to get used to that and I always think that people who use it have some toilet-training issues of their own. :redface:

And yeah, I'm sure MB was intentionally bad for the last half of this year, and he just should have pitched better. It was his choice, it was all up to him, it's that simple.

I think I better take a break now.

hold2dibber
09-26-2006, 10:33 PM
This quote here boiled my blood:


A quote by Buehrle on Chicagosports.com


Sounds like a guy thinking about his own stats?


Note to Buehrle:

Maybe you should have not pissed the bed for half of those 13 other losses and the Sox would still have something to play for .

*****. The season is over. It's human nature to have some concern about personal stats. Plus, what's wrong with a guy who wants to win more games? Doesn't that help the team? And I'm not sure what you mean when you say he "pissed the bed" -- he obviously didn't perform up to our expectations or his past performance, but you make it sound like it was either a deliberate choice or a lack of stones. Don't the first 5.5 years of Buehrle's career suggest to you that it was neither of those things, but instead that he simply didn't have it in the second half (for whatever reason)? If you think the last few months show that Buehrle either doesn't care or has no stones, you're a fair weather fan who hasn't been paying attention for the last 6 seasons.

Sox-o-matic
09-26-2006, 11:08 PM
Note to Buehrle:

Maybe you should have not pissed the bed for half of those 13 other losses and the Sox would still have something to play for .

Normally I would agree, but with our bullpen from hell this year I don't think it would have mattered. Neal Cotts is evil.