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soxwon
09-22-2006, 12:06 AM
A few of my sox fan friends were talking about
ozzies future!!!
i say he will last thru next season
and if we dont make the playoffs- he gawn
what are your thoughts?

whitesoxwilkes
09-22-2006, 12:07 AM
A few of my sox fan friends were talking about
ozzies future!!!
i say he will last thru next season
and if we dont make the playoffs- he gawn
what are your thoughts?

Short leash for sure. He's lost his fire and his decisions have made a lot of sticky situations even stickier.

dakuda
09-22-2006, 12:08 AM
Uh, it is not like they have had a losing record or anythign.

You (basically have) miss the playoffs in a tough ass division, and you're saying he is gone?

Some of the **** he has done is stupid, but otherwise I doubt he will be gone that soon.

thomas35forever
09-22-2006, 12:10 AM
:threadblows:

CubsfansareDRUNK
09-22-2006, 12:10 AM
Uh, it is not like they have had a losing record or anythign.

You (basically have) miss the playoffs in a tough ass division, and you're saying he is gone?

Some of the **** he has done is stupid, but otherwise I doubt he will be gone that soon.

As much as I hate it, I do agree with you. Just because we don't make the palyoffs doesnt mean guillens gone. I just dont see us getting a replacement any time in the near future. Course I'd love one, but otherwise...

JB98
09-22-2006, 12:12 AM
Unless there are things behind the scenes we don't know about, I don't believe Guillen's job is on the line in 2007. Another year like this one, and he'll be on the hot seat for 2008.

Etownsox13
09-22-2006, 12:13 AM
:threadblows:

I second that

slavko
09-22-2006, 12:17 AM
Who's gone first, Ozzie or Scott Skiles?

CHISOXFAN13
09-22-2006, 12:25 AM
Who's gone first, Ozzie or Scott Skiles?

Unless Skiles goes on his own, I don't think there's a chance in hell he's gone first. The Bulls are going to be contenders in the East for years.

HotelWhiteSox
09-22-2006, 12:25 AM
Uh, it is not like they have had a losing record or anythign.

You (basically have) miss the playoffs in a tough ass division, and you're saying he is gone?

Some of the **** he has done is stupid, but otherwise I doubt he will be gone that soon.

All signs point to it getting tougher too. But I agree, crappy second half, but still 15-20 games over .500. Then again, you have a big payroll. I will say that his relationship with Jerry gives him at least 2 years (barring some extremely underachieving/dwellar season), even if missing the postseason.

whitesoxfan
09-22-2006, 12:36 AM
Who's gone first, Ozzie or Scott Skiles?

Neither. I hope both retire with the Sox and Bulls respectively.

Ozzie has pissed me off this year with some of his moves (Mack in CF got old in June), but what manager doesn't make bad moves? I still love the guy and I really don't want him fired or to leave the Sox on bad terms...again.

ondafarm
09-22-2006, 12:37 AM
I will be the first to say it: I think the White Sox not just make the playoffs next year, but actually win the World Series again.

SoxSpeed22
09-22-2006, 12:43 AM
Who's gone first, Ozzie or Scott Skiles?I would say Skiles, just because that's how the NBA works.
And then Larry Brown comes out of retirement and leads the Bulls to glory. :o:

whitesoxfan
09-22-2006, 12:45 AM
I would say Skiles, just because that's how the NBA works.
And then Larry Brown comes out of retirement and leads the Bulls to glory. :o:

Larry Brown is a classic underachiever. I do not want him coming anywhere near the Bulls.

Domeshot17
09-22-2006, 12:51 AM
I agree. I dont care how fricking tough our division is. We have the most talent loaded team in baseball. Deep bullpen, bench. I know they have underperformed, but Ozzie has EASILY cost us 10 games this year with his micromanaging and trying to be the smartest, and stubbornist man on the field. 10 game swing=central division crown. Then in the critical month of september, he used it as tryouts for 2007 to see how good triple A charlotte is. Critical must win against the tigers and he has ryan sweeney in CF??????

He starts the season next year, and if we arent in first place at the all star break, see ya!

GOD HOPE JOEY CORA IS GONE IN THE OFFSEASON, WORST 3RD BASE COACH EVER

PeteWard
09-22-2006, 12:53 AM
He will lead the Sox to at least the playoffs next year which is good enough for this Sox fan of 40+ years.

batmanZoSo
09-22-2006, 01:09 AM
Of course, anything's possible and KW is as hell-bent on winning as they come. But I certainly don't think it will happen and I don't blame Ozzie for 06. In turn, I don't give him the majority of the credit for 05 either. It's a tale of two performances. 2005 were overachievers and 2006 were underachievers. Looking at it that way, the results kind of go out of a manager's hands to a degree.

captain54
09-22-2006, 01:10 AM
You know the biggest thing Ozzie (and KW) have working against them is the fact
the payroll is the biggest it's ever been in history and JR and Co are going
to expect RESULTS....

I can't really blame the AAA guys in the lineup the last week or so because
for the most part we haven't been hitting and I think he's just trying to make
something happen and maybe pump some fresh blood in there...

At some point the fact that the Sox have had bad 2nd halves all 3 years Ozzie has been here is going to have to be addressed...

Kwrubac
09-22-2006, 01:14 AM
I will be the first to say it: I think the White Sox not just make the playoffs next year, but actually win the World Series again.

:hawk

MERCY!!!!

spiffie
09-22-2006, 09:13 AM
We saw this year how quickly people grow tired of Ozzie's ability to say inflammatory things when the Sox are not winning. He has the concurrent problems of both very high expectations and a high probability of saying/doing something to cause himself unrelated trouble. It does not take much to imagine a scenario where next year we stumble out of the gate, are sitting in 4th place in late May, and Ozzie says something totally indefensible at which point Kenny and Jerry decide it is time to make a change and that Ozzie has just given them an excuse.

The Immigrant
09-22-2006, 09:38 AM
And then Larry Brown comes out of retirement and leads the Bulls to glory. :o:

:bundy

batmanZoSo
09-22-2006, 09:42 AM
I will be the first to say it: I think the White Sox not just make the playoffs next year, but actually win the World Series again.

Hey, we didn't repeat in 1918 did we? But the year after that, we won the pennant again. 2005 = 1917, 2007=1919, but let's hope the latter is true for all the right reasons.

SoxFan78
09-22-2006, 09:48 AM
How many losing seasons have Ozzie had since he has managed the White Sox???




Oh yeah, none.


I can't believe all these people after 3 seasons of over .500 baseball (don't forget a little something called the WORLD SERIES) want to ride Ozzie out on the next train out of here.

Yes he did make some bad decisions, but hes human, but hes not why the Sox didnt make the playoffs.

Was he on the mound throwing meatballs? NO
Was he at the plate hitting into double plays? NO
Was he in the outfield making bonehead plays? NO

There is a little something we should show Ozzie after he was the first manager in 88 years to bring a championship to Chicago. That little something is LOYALTY.

To all the Ozzie haters, if you want Ozzie gone, who should take his place? Yeah, lets hear those ideas.

Moses_Scurry
09-22-2006, 09:55 AM
How many losing seasons have Ozzie had since he has managed the White Sox???




Oh yeah, none.


I can't believe all these people after 3 seasons of over .500 baseball (don't forget a little something called the WORLD SERIES) want to ride Ozzie out on the next train out of here.

Yes he did make some bad decisions, but hes human, but hes not why the Sox didnt make the playoffs.

Was he on the mound throwing meatballs? NO
Was he at the plate hitting into double plays? NO
Was he in the outfield making bonehead plays? NO

There is a little something we should show Ozzie after he was the first manager in 88 years to bring a championship to Chicago. That little something is LOYALTY.

To all the Ozzie haters, if you want Ozzie gone, who should take his place? Yeah, lets hear those ideas.

Exactly. It's very convenient to say you want Ozzie gone. But the people who want him gone have no idea who should replace him. Who is available that would be an upgrade over Ozzie?????

kitekrazy
09-22-2006, 09:58 AM
A few of my sox fan friends were talking about
ozzies future!!!
i say he will last thru next season
and if we dont make the playoffs- he gawn
what are your thoughts?

I think it's stupid. When did the Sox become the NY Yankees or Chicago Cubs. He's a 3rd year manager. Show me where in the Baseball Bible that 3-4 years of managing a club makes you a Bobby Cox or Tony LaRussa?

You only have 25 guys to work with. Changing personnel isn't like a video game. Thanks to EA Sports and Fantasy Leauges people have become sports retarded.

Maybe after next year we may see a fire sale and they will make a challenge for the basement of the Central. Ozzie may be a better manager at that level.

There hasn't been one player on this team that has been clutch the whole year. That is basically impossible. When one doesn't step up there is no one to fill in. There is no manager in the world tat can be successful under those conditions.

Even Ozzie doesn't give himself the credit for last year's season. He knows it's all about the players. His mistakes are magnified when players don't do their job.

35th&Shields
09-22-2006, 09:59 AM
A few of my sox fan friends were talking about
ozzies future!!!
i say he will last thru next season
and if we dont make the playoffs- he gawn
what are your thoughts?

The window for success for this team is closing. Key players like Thome (36), Dye (32), Iguchi (32), Contreras (listed as 35) and even Konerko (30) are getting up there in years. We only have a couple more years where we can reasonably expect high levels of production form some of these guys. Father Time doesn't wait for anybody. If we don't make the playoffs next year, Ozzie could very well find himself looking for a new gig. I hope that's not the case and I don't think it will be. But time is of the essence.

0o0o0
09-22-2006, 10:13 AM
:threadblows:

:rolleyes: Who didn't see one of these coming?

I don't think he'll be gone after next season if the Sox don't make the playoffs, but if they continue on the path of mediocrity in 2008, something might happen.

All in all, I don't think this is something that we're gonna have to worry about. :cool:

Jerko
09-22-2006, 10:15 AM
I will be the first to say it: I think the White Sox not just make the playoffs next year, but actually win the World Series again.

I agree. I can't see the Tigers OR Twins duplicating this year's success next season at all.

Mickster
09-22-2006, 10:19 AM
Was he in the outfield making bonehead plays? NO

He certainly wasn't on the field making bonehead plays but puting Mack in CF as much as he did certainly contributed to some bonehead plays.

Rocky Soprano
09-22-2006, 10:20 AM
We saw this year how quickly people grow tired of Ozzie's ability to say inflammatory things when the Sox are not winning. He has the concurrent problems of both very high expectations and a high probability of saying/doing something to cause himself unrelated trouble. It does not take much to imagine a scenario where next year we stumble out of the gate, are sitting in 4th place in late May, and Ozzie says something totally indefensible at which point Kenny and Jerry decide it is time to make a change and that Ozzie has just given them an excuse.

I completely agree.

batmanZoSo
09-22-2006, 10:26 AM
I agree. I can't see the Tigers OR Twins duplicating this year's success next season at all.

The Tigers came out of nowhere and history kind of makes them a candidate for a let down year, but don't ever count out the Twins. Surely we've all learned that by now.

If you ask me, the Twins being there is a given and I'd bet one of Detroit or Cleveland will be right in the mix, too. I'd put money on another three team race. And christ, the Royals have improved dramatically over the course of this season and they've done it before (2003).

spiffie
09-22-2006, 10:31 AM
I agree. I can't see the Tigers OR Twins duplicating this year's success next season at all.
The Tigers are almost certain to regress. As for the Twins...have you been watching since 2000? I hate the bastards, but they put a contending team out there every year. With a full season of Liriano, Santana, Garza, Baker, and Bonser pitching, and their bullpen solid I see no reason they won't win 90 next year.

Jerko
09-22-2006, 10:37 AM
The Tigers are almost certain to regress. As for the Twins...have you been watching since 2000? I hate the bastards, but they put a contending team out there every year. With a full season of Liriano, Santana, Garza, Baker, and Bonser pitching, and their bullpen solid I see no reason they won't win 90 next year.

I'm not convinced Liriano will be the same at first, and I don't know if they're going to keep Hunter. Mauer and Morneau are good, but I can't believe people like Castillo, Punto, Tyner, Bartlett and White are going to come close to matching their numbers of this year. Also, with young pitchers, the "2nd time around" the league SOMETIMES catches up with them, so you never know. Plus, this is the first year Mauer stayed healthy. I know they are on a roll now, and have been for months, but when they get bounced unceremoniously out of the playoffs, I think that's gonna be the end of the wad they spent playing catch-up all year. JMO of course.

russ99
09-22-2006, 10:40 AM
I'm not calling for Ozzie's head at all - I hope he has a long run as Sox manager. This season should humble him a bit and hopefully he'll make much better decisions next season.

I do have to wonder how possible it is that the Sox coaching staff undergoes a massive overhaul in the offseason. I know Raines is gone and maybe Cora moved to 1st, but I'd even put some stock that Walker or even Cooper (would be a big mistake) might be reassigned or let go.

spiffie
09-22-2006, 10:47 AM
I'm not convinced Liriano will be the same at first, and I don't know if they're going to keep Hunter. Mauer and Morneau are good, but I can't believe people like Castillo, Punto, Tyner, Bartlett and White are going to come close to matching their numbers of this year. Also, with young pitchers, the "2nd time around" the league SOMETIMES catches up with them, so you never know. Plus, this is the first year Mauer stayed healthy. I know they are on a roll now, and have been for months, but when they get bounced unceremoniously out of the playoffs, I think that's gonna be the end of the wad they spent playing catch-up all year. JMO of course.
Hey, I hope you're right. I'd love to see them go 60-102 next year. But I have been hoping that since 2000, and all but one year they have found people to kill us.

southside rocks
09-22-2006, 10:49 AM
I'm not calling for Ozzie's head at all - I hope he has a long run as Sox manager. This season should humble him a bit and hopefully he'll make much better decisions next season.

I do have to wonder how possible it is that the Sox coaching staff undergoes a massive overhaul in the offseason. I know Raines is gone and maybe Cora moved to 1st, but I'd even put some stock that Walker or even Cooper (would be a big mistake) might be reassigned or let go.

I don't know if I'd use the word "humble", but I'm certain this season has done a lot to teach Ozzie a few things, both about baseball moves and about managing players. I think he will make better decisions next season.

This is Ozzie's third year as a MLB manager. He's got a tremendous record. And, like a promising young player, he has the potential to be even better as he learns from mistakes and different situations.

Getting rid of Ozzie would be like getting rid of Brian Anderson because he hasn't hit .310 all season long. There is a learning curve in everything.

As for the coaches, they all, except Raines, signed extensions in May, didn't they? I don't expect to see them gone next year, but I do expect to see Alomar signed as a coach to replace Raines. Not sure how I feel about that, if it happens...

I don't blame the coaches or the manager or the owner or the GM. I blame the players. I don't know which ones deserve the majority of the blame, but I devoutly hope that those players are not in White Sox uniforms next year.

D. TODD
09-22-2006, 10:50 AM
Ozzie is not built for a long run at any place as a manager. His thin skin and Billy Martin like temper will grow old anywhere he is at with players, management, and even fans. With that said, bringing home a world championship to the long suffering Sox fans will defiantly add a few years of patience from the Sox to Oz. At this point there should be no consideration of dumping him at all.

soxfanatlanta
09-22-2006, 11:00 AM
The Tigers are almost certain to regress. As for the Twins...have you been watching since 2000? I hate the bastards, but they put a contending team out there every year. With a full season of Liriano, Santana, Garza, Baker, and Bonser pitching, and their bullpen solid I see no reason they won't win 90 next year.

I agree that the Kittens will regress, but they are a young ballclub overall; they will be in the picture next year, IMO. The AL central is going to be a tough place to win for some time. If Ozzie learns to tone down the stupid rhetoric, he could be at the helm for a long while. Assuming the team does not completely implode, of course.

ondafarm: Here's to you being right (I hope) :gulp:

jdm2662
09-22-2006, 11:06 AM
I've already stated if Ozzie continues to say stupid things, makes questionable line-up decisions, etc and not making the playoffs, his act is not going to last long. I certainly don't think he should be replaced after this season. This was an overall team collapse. Ozzie did his share, but so did everyone else. Ozzie has rubbed me the wrong way, especially where it seems he takes favorites (ie Anderson getting benched constantly, yet Uribe keeps trotting out there). In 2004, I thought he did a pretty good job getting the most of the talent he had. In 2005, I thought he was an overall above average manager but a great motivator. This year, I have no idea what to think. It will be an interesting offseason, to say the least.

Chicken Dinner
09-22-2006, 11:08 AM
Losing 6 out of 7 games in September is not helping his cause. Kind of funny that 3 days ago, Ozzie was telling the press to blame him for the season and last night he goes and tells them that the players need to look at themselves in the mirror. :o:

Jerko
09-22-2006, 11:08 AM
Hey, I hope you're right. I'd love to see them go 60-102 next year. But I have been hoping that since 2000, and all but one year they have found people to kill us.

Very true. I was glad when Manichevitz, Guzman, Koskie, Rivas, Kielty, and even AJ left that team but then we get blindsided by the likes of Lew Ford, Michael Cuddyer, Terry Tiffee, and the new triumvirate of terror, M.J. Puntlettner. (a combo ot Punto, Bartlett, and Tyner). I really thought after last season we were done with these guys, but it's obvious we're not. :(:

southside rocks
09-22-2006, 11:10 AM
Ozzie is not built for a long run at any place as a manager. His thin skin and Billy Martin like temper will grow old anywhere he is at with players, management, and even fans. With that said, bringing home a world championship to the long suffering Sox fans will defiantly add a few years of patience from the Sox to Oz. At this point there should be no consideration of dumping him at all.

I don't think that Ozzie Guillen has a "Billy Martin like temper."

There's a very good profile of Billy Martin in the "SI Great Baseball Writing" book. I can't remember the author. I'll look it up when I get home. It's worth reading, because Billy Martin was much more than his managerial or player stats.

Martin was a very troubled individual and had some personal problems, including his drinking, that informed his character. There are no similarities between him and Ozzie Guillen, in that respect, and to compare them is like comparing a severe thunderstorm (Ozzie) to Hurricane Katrina (Billy).

Ozzie is volatile, sure. Billy was lethal.

I do think you're right when you say that Ozzie is not a long-term manager. He will not have the longevity in that career of a Billy Cox or a Tony LaRussa, I think. I love Ozzie and hope he stays as long as he wants to ... but I'll be astounded if he celebrates his 50th birthday in this job.

southside rocks
09-22-2006, 11:16 AM
Losing 6 out of 7 games in September is not helping his cause. Kind of funny that 3 days ago, Ozzie was telling the press to blame him for the season and last night he goes and tells them that the players need to look at themselves in the mirror. :o:

You're referring to two different things.

He's saying that he takes the blame for this team not winning the division, for the team's place in the standings on October 2. As a manager, he's stepping up. Good for him.

He told the players that the way they played recently, they should be embarrassed by it. As a manager, he's calling out the underperformers. Good for him.

He's not blaming the players for the entire season at all. He's telling them to stop playing the crappy baseball that they've played this homestand. He never said that the way the team has played this year, they should be embarrassed.

Nobody can watch a game like last night's and blame the manager. Nobody. I couldn't even blame Dusty Baker for a game like that one, and I think that Dusty is blameable for just about everything. (pale teal)

Last night was the players. With the exception of Javier Vazquez, they all sucked.

1917
09-22-2006, 11:20 AM
We were the Champs this year, all eye's were on us, if ozzie farted it made the papers, hopefully next year, without the bull eye's on our back, Ozzie will settle down....but what killed us this year was the Bull Pen and the leadoff position and we will still (hopefully) win 90 games...Ozzie is safe for awhile, but he needs to take a different approach, look at our record after the Marriotti ordeal, the numbers speak for themselves....

nevr say dye sox
09-22-2006, 11:25 AM
:angry: how about we just beat Kansas City next year like were suppose to and add 8 wins to our record, then we don't have to worry about making the playoffs

guillen4life13
09-22-2006, 12:09 PM
I'm not convinced Liriano will be the same at first, and I don't know if they're going to keep Hunter. Mauer and Morneau are good, but I can't believe people like Castillo, Punto, Tyner, Bartlett and White are going to come close to matching their numbers of this year. Also, with young pitchers, the "2nd time around" the league SOMETIMES catches up with them, so you never know. Plus, this is the first year Mauer stayed healthy. I know they are on a roll now, and have been for months, but when they get bounced unceremoniously out of the playoffs, I think that's gonna be the end of the wad they spent playing catch-up all year. JMO of course.


I'm gonna say it now. My pick to win the World Series (as much as I hate it):

The Twins.

They're playing great baseball right now and they play fundamentally sound baseball. Like Ozzie, I wish the Sox would adopt some of the things the Twins are doing.

Palehose13
09-22-2006, 12:16 PM
Wow. Some of you guys are just like this guy:

:windsock:

"I love Ozzie!"
"I hate Ozzie"
"Ozzie is great!"
"Ozzie sucks!"

You know what, losing sucks but this is far from a bad team. Some of you guys are acting like spoiled brats after one championship.

Scottzilla
09-22-2006, 12:18 PM
I would say Skiles, just because that's how the NBA works.
And then Larry Brown comes out of retirement and leads the Bulls to glory. :o:

glory being the conference finals cuz thats as far as larry brown can take a team.

I think Ozzies here for at least two more years. even with another bad finish hes won, theres not alot of world series winning managers available out there.

batmanZoSo
09-22-2006, 12:24 PM
Wow. Some of you guys are just like this guy:

:windsock:

"I love Ozzie!"
"I hate Ozzie"
"Ozzie is great!"
"Ozzie sucks!"

You know what, losing sucks but this is far from a bad team. Some of you guys are acting like spoiled brats after one championship.

I'm all about holding my teams to a world championship standard, but there's way too much grasping for straws on who or what to blame here and most of it is misplaced. The players didn't perform, period. Last year they overachieved, this year they underachieved. That's the way the mop flops. Hopefully 07 will be a karma-free year, neither good nor bad, so the talent can take over and get us another ****ing trophy. Until then, go Bears.

Palehose13
09-22-2006, 12:28 PM
I'm all about holding my teams to a world championship standard, but there's way too much grasping for straws on who or what to blame here and most of it is misplaced. The players didn't perform, period. Last year they overachieved, this year they underachieved. That's the way the mop flops. Hopefully 07 will be a karma-free year, neither good nor bad, so the talent can take over and get us another ****ing trophy. Until then, go Bears.

:thumbsup:

kitekrazy
09-22-2006, 12:37 PM
Ozzie is not built for a long run at any place as a manager. His thin skin and Billy Martin like temper will grow old anywhere he is at with players, management, and even fans. With that said, bringing home a world championship to the long suffering Sox fans will defiantly add a few years of patience from the Sox to Oz. At this point there should be no consideration of dumping him at all.

Only if there is a suitable replacement. Manuel might have been around longer is Ozzie didn't want to be a manager.

Hitmen77
09-22-2006, 12:43 PM
I think Ozzie gets one more season as an "untouchable" before his job is on the line.

This season, he's been terrible: Bad lineup decisions, bad pitching decisions, insistance on playing Mack over BA, stupid comments to the press that get everyone fired up against the Sox, giving the Twins a rallying cry (Piranahs).

He also totally mismanaged the hit batsman issue to the point where the Sox, who always get plunked and almost never retaliate, came off looking like the bad guys. Incredible.

kitekrazy
09-22-2006, 12:52 PM
I'm all about holding my teams to a world championship standard, but there's way too much grasping for straws on who or what to blame here and most of it is misplaced.

Yankee fans do that every year when "the best team money can buy" doesn't make it to the World Series. They just buy another guy and another guy and still don't get there.

They may have the best players but not the best players who can play as a team.

I consider this season a fluke. No way does this same Sox team tank like this. I don't see a major overhaul happening. I don't see them cutting payroll under this imaginary salary cap some of you think exists.

I want Mags back
09-22-2006, 12:58 PM
:threadblows:


ill agree as well. He won us a world series, he'll be around quite some time

kitekrazy
09-22-2006, 01:12 PM
I think Ozzie gets one more season as an "untouchable" before his job is on the line.

This season, he's been terrible: Bad lineup decisions, bad pitching decisions, insistance on playing Mack over BA, stupid comments to the press that get everyone fired up against the Sox, giving the Twins a rallying cry (Piranahs).

He also totally mismanaged the hit batsman issue to the point where the Sox, who always get plunked and almost never retaliate, came off looking like the bad guys. Incredible.

I guess they don't have a handbook How To Manage A Baseball Team After They Won A World Series In Your 2nd Year of Managing.

The hit batsman stuff is a bunch of crap. Lose your starter so the opposing team can have batting practice against the bullpen.

When no one is hitting every lineup is bad.

When no one is getting anybody out every bullpen decision is bad.

Mack over BA-risking defense for a guy who does a better job of putting the ball in play. That decision was probably based on how the rest of the lineup was hitting.

Unfortunately you have to play Mack, Cotts, Riske, Fingernails on a blackboard, and Pods. If they can't work their way out of their poor performances then you know what is need for next season. It's a lot easier to replace people before the season than midseason. A McDougal is not always going to be available in July. Ozzie is a bit slow on that one.

Players have off years. A good GM doesn't base his decisions on emotion. Some are ready to trade Mark B. Career stats say it's not a wise to get rid of him just to get rid of him.

As for Ozzie dealing with the press, he's from a different culture. Ironic that this country has freedom of speech. To him he probably feels his native country has more of that. He's going to have to learn to deal with the politically correct pussified American culture. I don't think that can be mastered. The Sox organization is not one that opens it's doors to the media on anything and everything. When they start to screw themselves picking on Ozzie they'll end up putting out nothing but speculation like
ESPN.

TDog
09-22-2006, 01:44 PM
I guess they don't have a handbook How To Manage A Baseball Team After They Won A World Series In Your 2nd Year of Managing.

The hit batsman stuff is a bunch of crap. Lose your starter so the opposing team can have batting practice against the bullpen.

When no one is hitting every lineup is bad.

When no one is getting anybody out every bullpen decision is bad.

Mack over BA-risking defense for a guy who does a better job of putting the ball in play. That decision was probably based on how the rest of the lineup was hitting.

Unfortunately you have to play Mack, Cotts, Riske, Fingernails on a blackboard, and Pods. If they can't work their way out of their poor performances then you know what is need for next season. It's a lot easier to replace people before the season than midseason. A McDougal is not always going to be available in July. Ozzie is a bit slow on that one.

Players have off years. A good GM doesn't base his decisions on emotion. Some are ready to trade Mark B. Career stats say it's not a wise to get rid of him just to get rid of him.

As for Ozzie dealing with the press, he's from a different culture. Ironic that this country has freedom of speech. To him he probably feels his native country has more of that. He's going to have to learn to deal with the politically correct pussified American culture. I don't think that can be mastered. The Sox organization is not one that opens it's doors to the media on anything and everything. When they start to screw themselves picking on Ozzie they'll end up putting out nothing but speculation like
ESPN.

Wow. A post I agree with. Although I wouldn't have chosen one or two of the adjectives.

A few years ago there were people here who wanted Cito Gaston hired over Ozzie Guillen, who had never managed. Gaston was known by former players as someone who filled out regular lineup cards day in and day out and let slumping hitters play their way out of it. Some people thought the Sox made the wrong choice. Gaston may have been quite content with keeping the oh-so-successful Lee-Ordonez-Thomas lineup, although injuries might have changed his plans. Those guys would have played on Sundays if they had stayed with the Sox, anyway. Most assuredly, no one would be talking about "Cito ball." They didn't when he was winning the World Series.

Now a lot of people are upset that Guillen doesn't play the regulars every day, but days off is not why the regulars haven't performed. A lot of people are upset that he leaves starters in too long. They are upset that he went to the wrong guys in the bullpen when he doesn't, although there are nights when there is no right guy in the bullpen.

Everything went right in 2005. I am grateful. Everything went wrong in 2006. Now it's time to regroup and look forward to 2007.

Ozzie Guillen isn't the problem.

champagne030
09-22-2006, 01:44 PM
Mack over BA-risking defense for a guy who does a better job of putting the ball in play. That decision was probably based on how the rest of the lineup was hitting.


No, the decision to play Mack was not based on how the lineup was hitting. BA played against lefties and a very few select righties. Mack played against righties. And Mack hasn't done a better job of hitting since the All-Star game.

I'm not calling for Ozzie to be canned, but he had a bad season as manager and that was one of several reasons we are not going to the playoffs this year.

kitekrazy
09-22-2006, 01:56 PM
I'm gonna say it now. My pick to win the World Series (as much as I hate it):

The Twins.

They're playing great baseball right now and they play fundamentally sound baseball. Like Ozzie, I wish the Sox would adopt some of the things the Twins are doing.

What kill them is they can't win on the road in the playoffs.

Hitmen77
09-22-2006, 02:02 PM
The hit batsman stuff is a bunch of crap. Lose your starter so the opposing team can have batting practice against the bullpen.

I totally agree. My point was that Ozzie could have handled it better than to make it a public fiasco. Other managers just quietly do what they need to do (retaliate, don't retaliate - whatever) and move on. But, somehow it managed to get publicized and the Sox somehow ended up looking stupid when we did nothing wrong.

I don't want to harp on it. It's certainly not the single event to make or break a season. But it was yet another unnecessary distraction that typified all that went wrong this season.

Hitmen77
09-22-2006, 02:07 PM
I guess they don't have a handbook How To Manage A Baseball Team After They Won A World Series In Your 2nd Year of Managing.

The hit batsman stuff is a bunch of crap. Lose your starter so the opposing team can have batting practice against the bullpen.

When no one is hitting every lineup is bad.

When no one is getting anybody out every bullpen decision is bad. .

I guess using that standard managers really don't have much accountablity. Dusty Baker could use the same argument for why he sould be back with the Cubs. Remember, he's only a few years removed from a pennant.

Mack over BA-risking defense for a guy who does a better job of putting the ball in play. That decision was probably based on how the rest of the lineup was hitting.

Unfortunately you have to play Mack, Cotts, Riske, Fingernails on a blackboard, and Pods. If they can't work their way out of their poor performances then you know what is need for next season. It's a lot easier to replace people before the season than midseason. A McDougal is not always going to be available in July. Ozzie is a bit slow on that one.

Players have off years. A good GM doesn't base his decisions on emotion. Some are ready to trade Mark B. Career stats say it's not a wise to get rid of him just to get rid of him.

You conveniently ignored my comment that I think Ozzie gets one more year before people start questioning his job status.

Chicken Dinner
09-22-2006, 02:28 PM
You conveniently ignored my comment that I think Ozzie gets one more year before people start questioning his job status.

Only if he stops making commercials and TV specials. :smile:

my5thbench
09-22-2006, 03:00 PM
I don't think that he would be forced out anytime soon...he may choose to leave...I rather hope that he stays

Man Soo Lee
09-22-2006, 04:00 PM
When no one is getting anybody out every bullpen decision is bad.

Yep. The Sox are 10th in the A.L. in bullpen ERA (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?statType=pitching&group=7&seasonType=2&type=type1&sort=ERA&split=128&season=2006) (4.52). The playoff teams are 1st (Minnesota, 3.03), 2nd (Detroit, 3.38), 3rd (Oakland, 3.45), and 8th (New York, 4.14).

Ozzie will be a lot smarter if he has better relievers next year.

batmanZoSo
09-22-2006, 04:10 PM
Yep. The Sox are 10th in the A.L. in bullpen ERA (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?statType=pitching&group=7&seasonType=2&type=type1&sort=ERA&split=128&season=2006) (4.52). The playoff teams are 1st (Minnesota, 3.03), 2nd (Detroit, 3.38), 3rd (Oakland, 3.45), and 8th (New York, 4.14).

Ozzie will be a lot smarter if he has better relievers next year.

Can it get any more obvious what the problem is? I tell you with each comment from Ozzie, JR or KW I see regarding the need to focus on that grinder/smallball crap, I get less optimistic that the right moves will be made this offseason. I don't hear anything from them about the bullpen sucking ass and needing to be fixed pronto.

BiggestFan14
09-22-2006, 04:37 PM
No way will I ever question the future of the man that brought this organizations first championship in eighty-eight years. I hope he will be the manager of this team as long as he well pleases.

champagne030
09-22-2006, 05:24 PM
No way will I ever question the future of the man that brought this organizations first championship in eighty-eight years. I hope he will be the manager of this team as long as he well pleases.

Is that you Thome25?

BiggestFan14
09-22-2006, 05:33 PM
Is that you Thome25?
No I am not him, but I am quite suprised more people do not feel the same way as myself about this...

kitekrazy
09-22-2006, 06:06 PM
.

I guess using that standard managers really don't have much accountablity. Dusty Baker could use the same argument for why he sould be back with the Cubs. Remember, he's only a few years removed from a pennant.


Dusty has been managing for more than 3 years. It's apples and oranges. Dusty is going to take the fall for the organization's mistakes. Hendry tried the "Rex Grossman experiment" with Prior and Wood. Dusty has to pay for it. Dusty most likely is the wrong guy for the Cubs next year since they are going to have to go with youth.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ozzie is in the Sox long term plans. His strength may lie in working with a younger team. When they rebuild they may want Ozzie around.

kitekrazy
09-22-2006, 06:08 PM
I'm not calling for Ozzie to be canned, but he had a bad season as manager and that was one of several reasons we are not going to the playoffs this year.

You mean several hundred reasons.

kitekrazy
09-22-2006, 06:14 PM
.
You conveniently ignored my comment that I think Ozzie gets one more year before people start questioning his job status.

No I didn't. There's no need. It was done in Sept. 2005 and this year. If the Sox somehow failed to make the playoffs in 2005, everyone would want him gone.

When doesn't a manager's job status ever get ? I thought for sure Torre would get canned after the 2004 season. I thought La Russa would be fired after 100 win seasons and no World Series.

It's part of baseball.

kitekrazy
09-22-2006, 06:19 PM
I don't hear anything from them about the bullpen sucking ass and needing to be fixed pronto.

That's because we don't need to hear the obvious.

Fenway
09-22-2006, 06:19 PM
White Sox start off slow next year Ozzie is gone.

kitekrazy
09-22-2006, 06:25 PM
White Sox start off slow next year Ozzie is gone.

And??????

I don't think so unless he insists Rob is a CF and Cotts is the next best thing to Sparky Lyle. I think Kenny would trade those guys to prevent it.

Most likely some of the team would be gone instead.

oeo
09-22-2006, 06:43 PM
White Sox start off slow next year Ozzie is gone.

I doubt that. And who are they going to get to manage the team, a month or two into the season? Dusty Baker?

I think there's a lot of respect in the Reinsdorf-Williams-Ozzie triangle. None of them will go anywhere unless they choose to go elsewhere.

I still think there were clubhouse problems that we don't about. There are going to be a lot of changes over the offseason.

And I don't know if anyone saw it (or if there is a thread about it)...but my brother said that Orel Herschiser (sp?) was on BBTN today, and commented about some things in the clubhouse. Apparantly there was a white board that something about contacting whoever transfers to the players' cars to their residences for the offseason (this is during the Tigers series, before they were "done"). And apparantly numerous players said that they missed Rowand and Everett. Everett was the guy who kept "things in shape", told them when to turn the TVs off and focus on baseball (why isn't Ozzie doing this?), and Rowand brought a ton of energy to the team (which doesn't surprise me).

Maybe Everett was right when he said that the Sox were not as good of a team without the guys that were lost...?

soxwon
09-22-2006, 06:52 PM
Do you think attendence figures or season tickets sales will drop Dramatically?

JB98
09-22-2006, 06:57 PM
Do you think attendence figures or season tickets sales will drop Dramatically?

Dramatically? No. I think the baseball culture in the city has started to shift. Everyone realizes now the best shot at a winner is on the South Side.

oeo
09-22-2006, 07:02 PM
Dramatically? No. I think the baseball culture in the city has started to shift. Everyone realizes now the best shot at a winner is on the South Side.

Not with the media in this town. The Sox needed to at least get to the playoffs this year. I think attendance will go down, maybe not to pre-2005, but I think it's going to go down a lot...until they show that they're a team to watch again.

If the Flubs get Girardi, the lovefest will be back.

goon
09-22-2006, 07:13 PM
Not with the media in this town. The Sox needed to at least get to the playoffs this year. I think attendance will go down, maybe not to pre-2005, but I think it's going to go down a lot...until they show that they're a team to watch again.

If the Flubs get Girardi, the lovefest will be back.


the cubs attendance is going to be great whether they get girardi or not. it's a little early to know if attendance will drop of significantly at US Cellular. i'm sure the sox will do just fine next year, despite missing the playoffs this year. i see more and more people walking the streets in the city wearing white sox gear all time, even in the past week.

with all the new fans that attended the games this year, people are finding out that going to US Cellular is just a better baseball experience then going to wrigley, especially families.

JB98
09-22-2006, 07:16 PM
the cubs attendance is going to be great whether they get girardi or not. it's a little early to know if attendance will drop of significantly at US Cellular. i'm sure the sox will do just fine next year, despite missing the playoffs this year. i see more and more people walking the streets in the city wearing white sox gear all time, even in the past week.

with all the new fans that attended the games this year, people are finding out that going to US Cellular is just a better baseball experience then going to wrigley, especially families.

I agree 100 percent. Out here in the far west suburbs, traditional Cubs country, I'm seeing more and more White Sox gear.

JB98
09-22-2006, 07:17 PM
Not with the media in this town. The Sox needed to at least get to the playoffs this year. I think attendance will go down, maybe not to pre-2005, but I think it's going to go down a lot...until they show that they're a team to watch again.

If the Flubs get Girardi, the lovefest will be back.

It won't take long for the Sox to show they are a team to watch in 2007. Book it.

spiffie
09-22-2006, 07:48 PM
Do you think attendence figures or season tickets sales will drop Dramatically?
Season tickets will drop as all the scalpers who bought last year for the WS tix don't renew. Attendance in general will likely fall for the first two months to the levels of 2005's first few months. If the Sox are doing well, then it will pick up. If not, it will stay around 2 million or so.

doctorlecter
09-22-2006, 07:48 PM
No doubt Ozzie's still here. Who in the hell do you think that they could attract to manage this squad if the canned Ozzie less than three years removed from winning the series?
Believe me, I was pro BA/anti Mack in CF as much as anybody. I questioned his insistence on leaving his starters in way too long. But I was at Game 2 of the World Series last year. And I saw this really cool parade attended by a million fellow Sox fans. And for that, Ozzie gets a pass for a while.

PaulDrake
09-22-2006, 08:03 PM
I will be the first to say it: I think the White Sox not just make the playoffs next year, but actually win the World Series again. I'd like to say I agree with you but I want to see how they finish this awful second half, and more important what moves are made in the off season.

champagne030
09-22-2006, 08:05 PM
You mean several hundred reasons.

No, I don't mean several hundred reasons. I think the reasons we didn't make the playoffs comes down to:

1.) Bad pitching - both starting and bullpen (Jenks, Thorton, Mac get a pass).

2.) Inability to score without the HR (this includes bad season by Pods and Uribe plus the inability of ANYONE, except Ozuna, on our roster to get down a simple sac bunt).

3.) Ozzie's X and O's management of the game. This includes the Mack debacle, lefty/righty stubbornness and mismanagement of the bullpen.

I will say that's Ozzie's mistakes hurt us the least, but if we would have been good at anyone of the three items I listed we would be in the playoffs. I don't think we would have been successful in the postseason if we didn't pitch better than we did or if we were unable to manufacture runs.

PaulDrake
09-22-2006, 08:19 PM
No, I don't mean several hundred reasons. I think the reasons we didn't make the playoffs comes down to:

1.) Bad pitching - both starting and bullpen (Jenks, Thorton, Mac get a pass).

2.) Inability to score without the HR (this includes bad season by Pods and Uribe plus the inability of ANYONE, except Ozuna, on our roster to get down a simple sac bunt).

3.) Ozzie's X and O's management of the game. This includes the Mack debacle, lefty/righty stubbornness and mismanagement of the bullpen.

I will say that's Ozzie's mistakes hurt us the least, but if we would have been good at anyone of the three items I listed we would be in the playoffs. I don't think we would have been successful in the postseason if we didn't pitch better than we did or if we were unable to manufacture runs. Excellent synopsis of this disappointing season.

jabrch
09-22-2006, 09:11 PM
Anyone who thinks JR and KW will fire OG know NOTHING about how JR and KW work. Ozzie is one of theirs. He is going nowhere until he wants to leave.

oldcomiskey
09-22-2006, 09:19 PM
I agree. I dont care how fricking tough our division is. We have the most talent loaded team in baseball. Deep bullpen, bench. I know they have underperformed, but Ozzie has EASILY cost us 10 games this year with his micromanaging and trying to be the smartest, and stubbornist man on the field. 10 game swing=central division crown. Then in the critical month of september, he used it as tryouts for 2007 to see how good triple A charlotte is. Critical must win against the tigers and he has ryan sweeney in CF??????

He starts the season next year, and if we arent in first place at the all star break, see ya!

GOD HOPE JOEY CORA IS GONE IN THE OFFSEASON, WORST 3RD BASE COACH EVER
Where exactly is this deep bullpen you speak of. They have been good at times and stunk the place up others. Pollitte was a total waste. Cotts seems to be taking over that role. Now if we get to McDougal and Jenks and super lefty Thornton..........

Britt Burns
09-22-2006, 09:24 PM
Ozzie will be back, and so will the Sox. We have a great core and a GM who isn't afraid to make deals. We are going to be great next year...count on it.

ondafarm
09-22-2006, 09:42 PM
I will be the first to say it: I think the White Sox not just make the playoffs next year, but actually win the World Series again.

I'd like to say I agree with you but I want to see how they finish this awful second half, and more important what moves are made in the off season.

I am assuming that KW will make a few moves this winter and brings in about five or six new faces. Most of the moves are pretty clearly telegraphed. Garcia to the NL (Dodgers?) A reworking on the SS situation (Cintron going full-time, Uribe as backup.) A new backup catcher. Although Alomar will stay with the org as a coach. A new lead-off hitter/ LF. One or two changes in the bullpen.

Frontman
09-22-2006, 09:42 PM
No, I don't mean several hundred reasons. I think the reasons we didn't make the playoffs comes down to:

1.) Bad pitching - both starting and bullpen (Jenks, Thorton, Mac get a pass).


Mac no longer gets a pass in my book. Gave up another home run tonight. He wants to be a starter, he should try to get 1-2-3 in one inning, then come talk to about his wants and needs; how is mindset is as a starter. To me, he's proven nothing. Hell, he sucked when he started this year when Jose needed out of the rotation.

No person is without fault on this team. All 25 of the regulars let us down at various times. To me, the only guys who deserve passes are AJ, Joe, and JD. While they struggled at times, I never saw consistent boneheadedness like the rest of the lineup.

Ozzie isn't going anywhere. He'll be back.

Front

JB98
09-22-2006, 09:52 PM
Mac no longer gets a pass in my book. Gave up another home run tonight. He wants to be a starter, he should try to get 1-2-3 in one inning, then come talk to about his wants and needs; how is mindset is as a starter. To me, he's proven nothing. Hell, he sucked when he started this year when Jose needed out of the rotation.

No person is without fault on this team. All 25 of the regulars let us down at various times. To me, the only guys who deserve passes are AJ, Joe, and JD. While they struggled at times, I never saw consistent boneheadedness like the rest of the lineup.

Ozzie isn't going anywhere. He'll be back.

Front

I think the poster meant MacDougal, not McCarthy, with the reference to 'Mac.'

Frontman
09-22-2006, 09:56 PM
I think the poster meant MacDougal, not McCarthy, with the reference to 'Mac.'

You know, I should of caught that. Matter of fact, I did think that, but reversed who had the "a" in their name. I should of checked before typing.

As they say on the street,

"My bad."

Yes, MacDougal has been a relief (pun intended) to the bullpen. But I think the Brandon love affair is getting soured rather quickly.

Front

champagne030
09-22-2006, 11:16 PM
Mac no longer gets a pass in my book. Gave up another home run tonight. He wants to be a starter, he should try to get 1-2-3 in one inning, then come talk to about his wants and needs; how is mindset is as a starter. To me, he's proven nothing. Hell, he sucked when he started this year when Jose needed out of the rotation.

No person is without fault on this team. All 25 of the regulars let us down at various times. To me, the only guys who deserve passes are AJ, Joe, and JD. While they struggled at times, I never saw consistent boneheadedness like the rest of the lineup.

Ozzie isn't going anywhere. He'll be back.

Front

Edit: I should have been more clear....Mac was short for MacDougal.

I see JB already made my intent clear.

caulfield12
09-22-2006, 11:41 PM
Mac no longer gets a pass in my book. Gave up another home run tonight. He wants to be a starter, he should try to get 1-2-3 in one inning, then come talk to about his wants and needs; how is mindset is as a starter. To me, he's proven nothing. Hell, he sucked when he started this year when Jose needed out of the rotation.

No person is without fault on this team. All 25 of the regulars let us down at various times. To me, the only guys who deserve passes are AJ, Joe, and JD. While they struggled at times, I never saw consistent boneheadedness like the rest of the lineup.

Ozzie isn't going anywhere. He'll be back.

Front

Even Dye has made two of those....getting thrown out off 2nd when he thought there were two outs instead of one and getting a horrible read on a shallow fly ball that ended up scoring a runner from 3rd (last weekend) who never goes 95% of that time (in that situation), except for the fact JD was going backwards and completely flat-footed.

ondafarm
09-22-2006, 11:54 PM
Even Dye has made two of those....getting thrown out off 2nd when he thought there were two outs instead of one and getting a horrible read on a shallow fly ball that ended up scoring a runner from 3rd (last weekend) who never goes 95% of that time (in that situation), except for the fact JD was going backwards and completely flat-footed.


To those of you who weren't in the Bay area to see that play. The wind was very gusty that night. JD had two choices 1) try to get in good throwing position and risk a last second gust which makes the ball jump and loosing the catch and any outs, or 2) catch the ball flat-footed and get the sure out. Dye chose the latter. In my opinion, he made the smart play. He certainly played it safe.

caulfield12
09-23-2006, 12:04 AM
To those of you who weren't in the Bay area to see that play. The wind was very gusty that night. JD had two choices 1) try to get in good throwing position and risk a last second gust which makes the ball jump and loosing the catch and any outs, or 2) catch the ball flat-footed and get the sure out. Dye chose the latter. In my opinion, he made the smart play. He certainly played it safe.


The problem is, you should always give the benefit of the doubt towards having to come in at the last second and charge into the ball instead of committing too soon and having to fade backwards.

Dye was obviously surprised by what happened, but he also had more experience playing in that stadium than any other Sox player. It was a mental error, and both of the A's announcers noticed it right away. They said that no way was the runner going anywhere (with one out) until they saw how badly Jermaine misplayed it.

I like Jermaine, he's one of my favorites, but the whole team has been missing in action mentally (of course, there are many worse like Uribe...or Cotts, who is in about as bad straits mentally as Politte, if that is possible) for much of the second half.

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 12:04 AM
i love the way this team is sleepwalking thru a homestand against doormats, while minny loses in baltimore... nice job preparing this team skipper... please, please say something stupid to get yourself fired.

FedEx227
09-23-2006, 12:06 AM
Yeah, DET and MINN are actually losing, we play a ****ty team and we look awful. Awesome! :bandance:can we get a teal banana?

caulfield12
09-23-2006, 12:06 AM
i love the way this team is sleepwalking thru a homestand against doormats, while minny loses in baltimore... nice job preparing this team skipper... please, please say something stupid to get yourself fired.


Losing 7 out of 8 maybe is a good thing, because it will crystallize the determination in KW and Ozzie to get rid of the "bad seeds" instead of believing we're just one or two moves away. I'm not advocating getting rid of 10 more players, but it's going to be 5, 6 maybe even 7 again this offseason.

kitekrazy
09-23-2006, 12:07 AM
Garcia to the NL (Dodgers?)

I wouldn't be too sure of that. They might keep him. I doubt BMac could go 200 innings next year. So maybe they keep Freddy and move Javy to the pen.

jabrch
09-23-2006, 12:09 AM
i love the way this team is sleepwalking thru a homestand against doormats, while minny loses in baltimore... nice job preparing this team skipper... please, please say something stupid to get yourself fired.

I can't wait for the bandwaggon jumpers to disappear. Hopefully this last few weeks did that.

Frater Perdurabo
09-23-2006, 12:09 AM
But I think the Brandon love affair is getting soured rather quickly.

JMHO, but I think McCarthy might be the kind of pitcher who needs to be able to work himself out of jams. As a starter, the Sox could and should expect him to occasionally get himself into jams and then work himself out of them, just like any other starting pitcher.

Frequently the smartest pitchers will surrender a cheap single to a troublesome hitter in order to try for the GIDP (or other out-producing play) with the next hitter. When he's at his best, Buehrle does this. Just look at his nine-inning, 1 hour, 39 minute masterpiece against Seattle in April 2005. Buehrle let Ichiro get on base almost every time and then got every other Mariner batter out. I hope McCarthy can develop his mental approach the same way. As I recall, Buehrle wasn't exactly lights-out out of the bullpen in 2000, but really found his groove when he became a full-time starter in 2001.

But coming in to try to clean up someone else's mess - the role of a bullpen guy - just may not be suited to the kind of pitcher that McCarthy is.

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 12:10 AM
Losing 7 out of 8 maybe is a good thing, because it will crystallize the determination in KW and Ozzie to get rid of the "bad seeds" instead of believing we're just one or two moves away. I'm not advocating getting rid of 10 more players, but it's going to be 5, 6 maybe even 7 again this offseason.
there may be a bad seed or two, our manager is the worst of all the seeds, and please don't tell me, when we were winning he was fine, my stance has never changed.

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 12:12 AM
I can't wait for the bandwaggon jumpers to disappear. Hopefully this last few weeks did that.
i have been a die hard sox fans for 40 years, spend 5k a year on season tix... think again brainiac... tell it to someone else.

caulfield12
09-23-2006, 12:17 AM
there may be a bad seed or two, our manager is the worst of all the seeds, and please don't tell me, when we were winning he was fine, my stance has never changed.


I'm in-between. I'm not giving Ozzie a free pass by any means, and I don't think he will gone if we don't make the playoffs next season. Despite Loria's pronouncements about Girardi NOT helping the Marlins this season, I disagree and give Ozzie some credit for us doing something we haven't seen in 88 years....just as I gave Jerry Manuel some blame in 2003. Not all, but some.

Next year will determine a lot...we either make the playoffs or have a huge rebuilding/reloading process at a $75-80 million dollar payroll instead.

Whether OG is the manager for that type of situation (and I think he might be better, it was a strength of Torborg and Manuel as well) remains to be seen. There's also the possibility that he again says something politically incorrect and gets canned for that if the team is within 10 games of .500 either way.

I hope that doesn't happen, that he can leave on his own terms. We'll just have to wait and see.

But I definitely don't like what I'm seeing this week. I'm not quite as upset, you almost expected the letdown after being "psychologically eliminated," but this is like a second stab in the heart for those who were thinking we might actually play meaningful games the final weekend in Minneapolis.

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 12:21 AM
let's say for the sake of arguement that ozzie is a decent manager, which of course, i do not... let's just take his last calamity, where he goes off, after losing a game, in the middle of a pennant race, about there being no beer in the clubhouse. do you think that is a little problem as far as priorities go? and of course we all know alot of the earlier stuff, that made him and the organization look like clowns.

lumpyspun
09-23-2006, 12:24 AM
let's say for the sake of arguement that ozzie is a decent manager, which of course, i do not... let's just take his last calamity, where he goes off, after losing a game, in the middle of a pennant race, about there being no beer in the clubhouse. do you think that is a little problem as far as priorities go? and of course we all know alot of the earlier stuff, that made him and the organization look like clowns.

Are you really Tim Raines, looking to take over next year?

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 12:27 AM
Are you really Tim Raines, looking to take over next year?
no, but i would love to see joe girardi, but the scrubs will probably lock him up. i really wouldn't mind giving razor shines a shot. but maybe, just maybe we can hire bob brenley, because he is obviously a great manager because he won a world series...:rolleyes:

caulfield12
09-23-2006, 12:29 AM
Piniella, Brenly, LaRussa, Girardi....all interesting speculation, but Ozzie isn't going anywhere until 2008, at the earliest.

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 12:29 AM
Are you really Tim Raines, looking to take over next year?
but thanks for answering my question.

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 12:30 AM
Piniella, Brenly, LaRussa, Girardi....all interesting speculation, but Ozzie isn't going anywhere until 2008, at the earliest.
i'm kidding about brenly.... mucho teal.

ondafarm
09-23-2006, 12:31 AM
. . . Dye was obviously surprised by what happened, but he also had more experience playing in that stadium than any other Sox player. . .

Two of the four years Dye played in Oakland he was out for the season by September, the other two he had very few outfield starts in September, nursing injuries.

Dye probably knew better than anyone else how tricky the wind can be in September at McAfee. I've played in a few stadiums that open with a crosswind, and the ball was hit high enough to get into it. The effects are very unpredictable.

If you think that was a poor play, then you just don't know that much about baseball.

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 12:35 AM
i got news for ya, after this teams performance, if you think this organization is gonna put up with another ozzieism, where he offends a boatload of people, you may be very surprised.... no ozzie supporters care to answer the question? beer anyone?

caulfield12
09-23-2006, 12:40 AM
Two of the four years Dye played in Oakland he was out for the season by September, the other two he had very few outfield starts in September, nursing injuries.

Dye probably knew better than anyone else how tricky the wind can be in September at McAfee. I've played in a few stadiums that open with a crosswind, and the ball was hit high enough to get into it. The effects are very unpredictable.

If you think that was a poor play, then you just don't know that much about baseball.

Gee...I guess Rob Mackowiak hasn't made a "bad" play all season either, because he has limitations and never should have been in CF in the first place.

Wasn't that the same game that Mackowiak had the ball fly off the heel of his glove when he dove unnecessarily and akwardly drove his knee into the ground, leading to yet another crooked number?

Wasn't that the same crosswind from LF to RF that should have been accounted for?

It really doesn't matter, obviously the heart disappeared from this team after the Friday night loss to the A's from an outsider's perspective, despite the "high" of the Wednesday Garcia game.

All I know is that most of the players on playoff teams have consistently set up well (see Monroe, Craig or Kotsay) and thrown out our runners, while we've consistently thrown to the wrong base, missed the cut-off man, and not been in the proper position on many plays.

These are the little differences between teams like the White Sox (this year) and the teams playing on a higher level that are winning the 1 and 2 run games. I'm sure Ray Fosse doesn't know about baseball, heck, nobody in Oakland knows about baseball. Yet somehow, they make the playoffs more often than not with payrolls 2/3rd's of ours.

Every player on this team has made mental mistakes, perhaps not so obvious as Iguchi and Dye on the basepaths, but obvious nonetheless. But you lose as a team and win as a team, and these guys really just want to get on that plane Sunday afternoon and get out of Dodge.

Patrick134
09-23-2006, 12:42 AM
Gee...I guess Rob Mackowiak hasn't made a "bad" play all season either, because he has limitations and never should have been in CF in the first place.

Wasn't that the same game that Mackowiak had the ball fly off the heel of his glove when he dove unnecessarily and akwardly drove his knee into the ground, leading to yet another crooked number?

Wasn't that the same crosswind from LF to RF that should have been accounted for?

It really doesn't matter, obviously the heart disappeared from this team after the Friday night loss to the A's from an outsider's perspective, despite the "high" of the Wednesday Garcia game.

All I know is that most of the players on playoff teams have consistently set up well (see Monroe, Craig or Kotsay) and thrown out our runners, while we've consistently thrown to the wrong base, missed the cut-off man, and not been in the proper position on many plays.

These are the little differences between teams like the White Sox (this year) and the teams playing on a higher level that are winning the 1 and 2 run games. I'm sure Ray Fosse doesn't know about baseball, heck, nobody in Oakland knows about baseball. Yet somehow, they make the playoffs more often than not with payrolls 2/3rd's of ours.

Every player on this team has made mental mistakes, perhaps not so obvious as Iguchi and Dye on the basepaths, but obvious nonetheless. But you lose as a team and win as a team, and these guys really just want to get on that plane Sunday afternoon and get out of Dodge.

The A's are in a different division, one with only 4 teams in it. That alone makes it easier to make the playoffs. Texas pitching staffs also make it easier, as well as seattlle's.

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 12:44 AM
The A's are in a different division, one with only 4 teams in it. That alone makes it easier to make the playoffs. Texas pitching staffs also make it easier, as well as seattlle's.
they are in an easier division, but kicked our arse good for us didn't they? effectively putting us out of the playoffs.

caulfield12
09-23-2006, 12:48 AM
The A's are in a different division, one with only 4 teams in it. That alone makes it easier to make the playoffs. Texas pitching staffs also make it easier, as well as seattlle's.

2-3 years ago, this was the best division in baseball.

Everything is cyclical. You had the Angels winning the WS, the 2001 Mariners were loaded and playoff worthy almost every season...and the A's. Texas was the "worst" team, and they always had a deep line-up offensively and were a tough out in Arlington no matter when you played them (or maybe it was just the Sox that struggled there?)

For much of the last 10 years, baseball in the Midwest was dead, with the exceptions of the Cardinals and strong crowds in Wrigley.

Look are the resurgence in Chicago, Detroit, Cincy (to a lesser extent)...Milwaukee is getting better, Cleveland was very tough last year, Pittsburgh is one of the few cities not to keep up, and KC (although hopes are high here as well for next season and beyond).

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 12:51 AM
i'll just assume no one wants to touch the ozzie beer rant, because they know how incredible it is that by all appearances, after losing a crucial game in the middle of a pennant race, that not having beer in the clubhouse would be the most pressing thing on his mind. i agree, that one is awfully tough to defend.

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 12:53 AM
i'll check in the morning.:bandance:

lumpyspun
09-23-2006, 12:56 AM
i'll just assume no one wants to touch the ozzie beer rant, because they know how incredible it is that by all appearances, after losing a crucial game in the middle of a pennant race, that he would go off about not having beer in the clubhouse. i agree, that one is awfully tough to defend.


It is well known that beer is known as a coping mechanism for alot of people. In fact, your last few posts have me thinking you might be consuming some tonight. It can help ease pain and get your mind off things. It can take you out of the situation, for at least a little bit. I don't blame Ozzie for wanting beer after their showing in those crucial games. If he was looking for beer in the 2nd inning, I would have a problem with it.

You don't like Ozzie, we got it. You never did, we got it. I like the fact that he has put us over or close to 90 wins ever since he has been here.

JB98
09-23-2006, 01:00 AM
It is well known that beer is known as a coping mechanism for alot of people. In fact, your last few posts have me thinking you might be consuming some tonight. It can help ease pain and get your mind off things. It can take you out of the situation, for at least a little bit. I don't blame Ozzie for wanting beer after their showing in those crucial games. If he was looking for beer in the 2nd inning, I would have a problem with it.

You don't like Ozzie, we got it. You never did, we got it. I like the fact that he has put us over or close to 90 wins ever since he has been here.

:supernana: :supernana: :supernana:

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 01:00 AM
It is well known that beer is known as a coping mechanism for alot of people. In fact, your last few posts have me thinking you might be consuming some tonight. It can help ease pain and get your mind off things. It can take you out of the situation, for at least a little bit. I don't blame Ozzie for wanting beer after their showing in those crucial games. If he was looking for beer in the 2nd inning, I would have a problem with it.

You don't like Ozzie, we got it. You never did, we got it. I like the fact that he has put us over or close to 90 wins ever since he has been here.
is that really your answer? pretty sad... and as far as your astute assessment of me, i don't drink, not doin to well tonight my friend.

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 01:05 AM
are you really enjoying this 3rd place finish, with the best team, on paper, in baseball?

lumpyspun
09-23-2006, 01:13 AM
are you really enjoying this 3rd place finish, with the best team, on paper, in baseball?

No, not at all, but I really don't think Ozzie looking for beer has anything to do with the way the team plays on the field.

Have you seen this so called "rant" on video? I would love to see it if you did. All I saw were Oakland based writers account of how upset Ozzie was b/c of the A's policy of no alcohol in the clubhouse. I really don't think he was that upset that he didn't have a beer...I'm sure he was more upset with the fact that his team got their ass kicked up and down the field and only managed 3 hits that night. If he had a craving for a cheesesteak, he probably would have been bitching that the city of Oakland sucks at making cheesesteaks.

The story looked like a terrible attempt of Oakland writers to throw salt on the wounds of a terrible playing White Sox team.

In fact, the title of the article I read was "White Sox shut down out West in more ways than one" (which sounds like something straight from the WSI cubune thread)
You fell for their horrible attempt to stir up Ozzie controvesy, I didn't.

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 01:20 AM
No, not at all, but I really don't think Ozzie looking for beer has anything to do with the way the team plays on the field.

Have you seen this so called "rant" on video? I would love to see it if you did. All I saw were Oakland based writers account of how upset Ozzie was b/c of the A's policy of no alcohol in the clubhouse. I really don't think he was that upset that he didn't have a beer...I'm sure he was more upset with the fact that his team got their ass kicked up and down the field and only managed 3 hits that night. If he had a craving for a cheesesteak, he probably would have been bitching that the city of Oakland sucks at making cheesesteaks.

The story looked like a terrible attempt of Oakland writers to throw salt on the wounds of a terrible playing White Sox team.

In fact, the title of the article I read was "White Sox shut down out West in more ways than one"
You fell for their horrible attempt to stir up Ozzie controvesy, I didn't.

ok..ok.. i got it, everyone is to blame for ozzie being a clown, but ozzie. now it's the oakland media. it's ok,public opinion on him has shifted drastically, finally, and i think you can see it on a daily basis on this site. the next time ozzie or his kid say @#$% the fans, maybe we will come to a concensus, either way, ozzie being ozzie, won't be around for too much longer, of that i'm sure. keep being ozzie sheep, cus HE won us a ws...:rolleyes: perhaps when he's fired or quits under pressure, him and bob brenly can sit down and discuss what great managers they were cus they won a ws.... i truely hope this ozzie conspiracy comes to an end soon, damn oakland media, notorious for this kinda stuff.

lumpyspun
09-23-2006, 01:31 AM
ok..ok.. i got it, everyone is to blame for ozzie being a clown, but ozzie. now it's the oakland media. it's ok,public opinion on him has shifted drastically, finally, and i think you can see it on a daily basis on this site. the next time ozzie or his kid say @#$% the fans, maybe we will come to a concensus, either way, ozzie being ozzie, won't be around for too much longer, of that i'm sure. keep being ozzie sheep, cus HE won us a ws...:rolleyes: perhaps when he's fired or quits under pressure, him and bob brenly can sit down and discuss what great managers they were cus they won a ws.... i truely hope this ozzie conspiracy comes to an end soon, damn oakland media, notorious for this kinda stuff.

It's funny how one minute you claim the media can't be at fault in this situation, but in other situations that fit your needs the media can be at fault. I pulled a quote you had on April 14th:
my only point was that, most, not all, of people who comment on these things, don't know the ins and outs of highly competetive athletics, and that includes alot of sports writers.

I'm making a big assumption that you weren't in the clubhouse the other night in Oakland and that you are basing your latest hate Ozzie campaign solely on what you read in the papers. Maybe you should listen to you own words and not put so much stock on what you read in the papers.

JB98
09-23-2006, 01:36 AM
I admit I find this argument amusing, but honestly, Guillen's remarks about beer in the clubhouse are completely irrelevant to what takes place on the field.

I've worked for newspapers all my life, and I have first-hand knowledge that 99.9 percent of the crap managers/coaches/athletes feed sportswriters has absolutely no relevance to what takes place on the field.

Martinigirl
09-23-2006, 03:03 AM
Losing 7 out of 8 maybe is a good thing, because it will crystallize the determination in KW and Ozzie to get rid of the "bad seeds" instead of believing we're just one or two moves away. I'm not advocating getting rid of 10 more players, but it's going to be 5, 6 maybe even 7 again this offseason.

I just got home from the game, and I am not sure what crystalization you are looking for, but the thing that was crystal clear to me was that Ozzie is absolutely horrible at Bullpen Management.

IronFisk
09-23-2006, 03:42 AM
Ozzie's the man. His starters are exhausted from being used too much last year, and his bullpen simply choked. He's made the same moves he did last year, but then, they actually pitched.

Let's see next year - hopefully with a pitching staff far more consistent.

ondafarm
09-23-2006, 04:09 AM
Gee...I guess Rob Mackowiak hasn't made a "bad" play all season either, because he has limitations and never should have been in CF in the first place.

Wasn't that the same game that Mackowiak had the ball fly off the heel of his glove when he dove unnecessarily and akwardly drove his knee into the ground, leading to yet another crooked number?

Wasn't that the same crosswind from LF to RF that should have been accounted for?

Man, this is like arguing with a four year old.

Dye played a ball that got up into the crosswind which is above the upper deck in Oakland. If you'd bothered to look at the play you'd have seen how high it got. Mackowiak's was much lower and never got near the height of the crosswind. Mack butchered the ball. If he'd taken the safe route and pulled up I might say, "Hey, play it safe." That is exactly what Dye did.

If this is really your intelligence level, there are other fan sites for the less intellectual. The Cheat at South Side Sox discusses at about your third-grade level.

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 08:44 AM
It's funny how one minute you claim the media can't be at fault in this situation, but in other situations that fit your needs the media can be at fault. I pulled a quote you had on April 14th:


I'm making a big assumption that you weren't in the clubhouse the other night in Oakland and that you are basing your latest hate Ozzie campaign solely on what you read in the papers. Maybe you should listen to you own words and not put so much stock on what you read in the papers.

i guess you're really not too bright. what does my comment about alot of sportswriters , not knowing very much about the ins and outs of competetive atletics, have to do with your conspiracy theory about the media in oakland? i fail to make the connection, perhaps you can help me out.:rolleyes:... as a post script,i find it creepy that you would go back to a comment i made in april, my only guess is that you were looking to see if my stance on our manager has been consistant, if that's what you were looking for, i know you were disappointed.

wassagstdu
09-23-2006, 09:12 AM
Can it get any more obvious what the problem is? I tell you with each comment from Ozzie, JR or KW I see regarding the need to focus on that grinder/smallball crap, I get less optimistic that the right moves will be made this offseason.

Did you miss the 2005 season? Did you miss the 2006 season, especially the last two weeks of it? "Smallball crap?" It's called baseball. "Grinder crap?" It's called winning.

.

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 09:24 AM
well, i see how you found my posting history so easily. as i peruse the bulk of my posts, i amaze myself at how smart i am.....:D:

samram
09-23-2006, 09:44 AM
White Sox start off slow next year Ozzie is gone.

He'll last the season, but if 2007 is like 2006, I wouldn't be surprised if he's gone after that. I think his contract is through 2008, so his being fired with a year left wouldn't be that big a financial burden.

caulfield12
09-23-2006, 09:55 AM
Man, this is like arguing with a four year old.

Dye played a ball that got up into the crosswind which is above the upper deck in Oakland. If you'd bothered to look at the play you'd have seen how high it got. Mackowiak's was much lower and never got near the height of the crosswind. Mack butchered the ball. If he'd taken the safe route and pulled up I might say, "Hey, play it safe." That is exactly what Dye did.

If this is really your intelligence level, there are other fan sites for the less intellectual. The Cheat at South Side Sox discusses at about your third-grade level.


If you were there, you must have noticed the A's (and Chavez's reaction) in the dugout after the play. Everyone was in shock after that play. They were all laughing about it.

Jurr
09-23-2006, 10:22 AM
Boy, is this a mature thread.

Anyway, Ozzie has bought himself a great deal of time and "tenure" with 2005. Reinsdorf is going to be loyal to Ozzie and KW, unless Ozzie really flies off the handle and stirs up too much controversy at some point.

This team was smacked in the mouth by two teams in their division that wanted it more, and they didn't have the hunger it takes to fight back. They played like they were fat and happy from the WS win.

Next year, look for a very focused team coming into spring training, looking to regain that competitive fire. Instead of enjoying a rock star atmosphere and a media circus around Ozzie, this club will be shutting up in Arizona and putting together a team concept to make sure they're not letting anybody sneak up on them in 2007.

The 2005 honeymoon is over, and players like Buehrle, McCarthy, and Contreras will be looking to return from their embarrassing performances this year. This team will be fine. As long as Ozzie focuses on the team instead of his own celebrity, he's going to be our manager for a long time.

Beer Can Chicken
09-23-2006, 11:21 AM
He won us the World Series last year. This year he cost us a playoff spot. I think he'll be sticking around for awhile, for better or worse.

From day one, I've said as soon as the going gets rough people will turn on him and he'll be run out of town. He's tolerable when they are winning but when the losing starts his comments and stubborn behavior aren't nearly as 'cute'. I'm sure he'll do or say something that polarizes everyone and forces the SOX to do something about him. I personally think Ozzie only cares about himself.

soxtalker
09-23-2006, 11:23 AM
First, let me state that I've not been at all happy about some of Ozzie's managerial moves this year. I don't, for example, understand the benching of BA -- it definitely cost us some games. But I don't see Ozzie getting fired, and, while he might be tempted to walk out on his own, he probably won't. And I don't think that it is appropriate.

I remember KW's early years. He made some awful major trades that cost us dearly (in part due to the players we traded away, but more due to the time we had to stick with the players we acquired). While many other WSI members liked the aggressive trading, I couldn't stand the apparent sacrifice of the farm system. Bottom line -- I really wanted to see him out as GM. But he learned from his mistakes. He's always seemed to do well with his lower-risk minor trades, as he's really adept at finding players in other systems. But now I fully expect that most trades he makes are good. And I'm even pretty optimistic on the farm system (though I wish we had Minnesota's).

Ozzie's only been managing 3 years. He's still learning. Winning in your second year of managing was great, but he's probably learning much more this year.

soxwon
09-23-2006, 03:24 PM
i have complete confidence in kW, to get what we need.
im looking very forward to next years team.
attendence should drop for awhile, but the south will rise again.

SluggersAway
09-23-2006, 08:13 PM
This thread is hilarious. I especially like the Ozzie beer discussion.

I can't believe it hasn't made it into the **** house yet.

But, I agree it is a curious story. I'm not ready to blame the Oakland media just yet. Ozzie has such a rich track record, the benefit of the doubt has long passed.

MILTMAY5
09-23-2006, 09:05 PM
How many losing seasons have Ozzie had since he has managed the White Sox???




Oh yeah, none.


I can't believe all these people after 3 seasons of over .500 baseball (don't forget a little something called the WORLD SERIES) want to ride Ozzie out on the next train out of here.

Yes he did make some bad decisions, but hes human, but hes not why the Sox didnt make the playoffs.

Was he on the mound throwing meatballs? NO
Was he at the plate hitting into double plays? NO
Was he in the outfield making bonehead plays? NO

There is a little something we should show Ozzie after he was the first manager in 88 years to bring a championship to Chicago. That little something is LOYALTY.

To all the Ozzie haters, if you want Ozzie gone, who should take his place? Yeah, lets hear those ideas.He's the best manager this team has had since Jeff Torborg. I agree there have been times where I questioned his moves, but didn't he prove to us last year he can manage! I agree, with some of the others that maybe he could use a better bench coach, somebody he trusts ( Torborg or Fisk pop to mind ) and Joey Cora could go to Florida and nobody would be sad.

SluggersAway
09-23-2006, 09:24 PM
Almost any manager in the majors would love to deal with the lineup and payroll Ozzie has.

You can't judge him on the overall record, but with the things he has done in the game.

On this score, he has done poorly this year, no question.

SluggersAway
09-23-2006, 09:27 PM
I salute kw.

At this point, I think the team might have been better off managing itself.

southside rocks
09-23-2006, 11:58 PM
Almost any manager in the majors would love to deal with the lineup and payroll Ozzie has.

You can't judge him on the overall record, but with the things he has done in the game.

On this score, he has done poorly this year, no question.

Huh? Are you saying that a MLB manager can't be judged by his won-lost record and his winning percentage? Or the frequency of his teams' post-season appearances?

Or are you saying that you don't like the way Ozzie manages, so you're going to judge him on that?

I'm confused. :?:

SluggersAway
09-24-2006, 01:04 AM
I'm saying it is not that simple so all the platitudes in this thread mean nothing.

soxwon
09-24-2006, 01:10 PM
Boy, is this a mature thread.

Anyway, Ozzie has bought himself a great deal of time and "tenure" with 2005. Reinsdorf is going to be loyal to Ozzie and KW, unless Ozzie really flies off the handle and stirs up too much controversy at some point.

This team was smacked in the mouth by two teams in their division that wanted it more, and they didn't have the hunger it takes to fight back. They played like they were fat and happy from the WS win.

Next year, look for a very focused team coming into spring training, looking to regain that competitive fire. Instead of enjoying a rock star atmosphere and a media circus around Ozzie, this club will be shutting up in Arizona and putting together a team concept to make sure they're not letting anybody sneak up on them in 2007.

The 2005 honeymoon is over, and players like Buehrle, McCarthy, and Contreras will be looking to return from their embarrassing performances this year. This team will be fine. As long as Ozzie focuses on the team instead of his own celebrity, he's going to be our manager for a long time.


i hope aj does some more wrestling!!!

vegyrex
09-24-2006, 01:59 PM
This thread is hilarious. So many people want to get rid of a manager that got us a world series title. :rolleyes:

Sox-o-matic
09-24-2006, 05:41 PM
I don't think we need a new manager at all. I just think that KW and Ozzie will have to go back to the drawing board and take a look at how we can improve the bullpen and improve our ability to manufacture runs.

I'm not sure why there is all this Cora hate and I'm not sure why the Sox seem to be so willing to dump Rock Raines. Harold at 1B hasn't done anything for us and at least when Rock was there the team was running. And Cora I think has been handcuffed a lot this season because he hasn't been able to take the amount of chances he would normally like to because our starting pitching and bullpen kept us behind and looking for a big home run most of the time.

October26
09-24-2006, 06:30 PM
This thread is hilarious. So many people want to get rid of a manager that got us a world series title. :rolleyes:

Agreed.:rolleyes:

southside rocks
09-24-2006, 07:48 PM
This thread is hilarious. So many people want to get rid of a manager that got us a world series title. :rolleyes:

I think that a lot of people who are saying that Ozzie should be gone have NO idea what winning a World Series does for a MLB manager's resume.

TomParrish79
09-24-2006, 07:51 PM
this thread is retarded....how soon we forget last year and how appreciative we were for what we got.

Grzegorz
09-24-2006, 07:52 PM
I heard that Baines is heading home to his family but I never heard that the White Sox wanted Raines out of the organization.

Can someone clarify this situation?

Lip Man 1
09-24-2006, 07:57 PM
All the coaches EXCEPT Raines were offered contracts for next season and they signed them. I have no idea what Tim may have done to piss off Ozzie or someone in the organization, but it's looking likely that next week will be his last is a Sox uniform.

Lip

Grzegorz
09-24-2006, 08:06 PM
Thanks for the information...

We really have to wait until the smoke clears from this season to get an accurate idea of what really went wrong. I expect to hear more about this years disappointment after the WS.

That said, I'll be here at WSI waiting for the latest news...

tdwiek
09-25-2006, 09:43 AM
For a manager who brought us the first World Series title in almost a century, we sure are quick to crucify the guy after one dissapointing season

Yes, Ozzie has his flaws, and a lot of his recent decisions could be considered very questionable, but I would rather have a manager out there with that kind of emotion than a Jerry Manuel or Gene Lamont anyday.

SoxFan78
09-25-2006, 09:52 AM
All the coaches EXCEPT Raines were offered contracts for next season and they signed them. I have no idea what Tim may have done to piss off Ozzie or someone in the organization, but it's looking likely that next week will be his last is a Sox uniform.

Lip

From what I remember hearing, I dont think Tim pissed off Ozzie, but Raines might have wanted to look into managing oppurtunities. I dont expect Raines back for 2007.

October26
09-25-2006, 10:25 AM
For a manager who brought us the first World Series title in almost a century, we sure are quick to crucify the guy after one dissapointing season

Yes, Ozzie has his flaws, and a lot of his recent decisions could be considered very questionable, but I would rather have a manager out there with that kind of emotion than a Jerry Manuel or Gene Lamont anyday.

Amen, brother! :thumbsup:

soxtalker
09-25-2006, 10:40 AM
For a manager who brought us the first World Series title in almost a century, we sure are quick to crucify the guy after one dissapointing season

Yes, Ozzie has his flaws, and a lot of his recent decisions could be considered very questionable, but I would rather have a manager out there with that kind of emotion than a Jerry Manuel or Gene Lamont anyday.

I've enjoyed (well, that's probably not quite the right word -- it isn't a happy time) the discussion. Like most debates on WSI, there is a whole range of opinions -- from "fire Ozzie" to "let's give him a complete pass because he won the WS for us". Most are in the middle with (somewhat) valid criticisms. It'll be interesting to see how the debate changes when we've had a chance to cool off and reflect a bit.

spiffie
09-25-2006, 10:59 AM
This thread is hilarious. So many people want to get rid of a manager that got us a world series title. :rolleyes:
I assume then you were pissed off that the Sox hired Ozzie instead of Cito Gaston? After all, Cito had two World Series titles!!!!

MadetoOrta
09-25-2006, 12:54 PM
There is one constant in professional and - to a large extent - big time college sports; at some point the coach will either be fired or move on. I'd like to know from the "he won a WS for us, he can do what he pleases" crowd under what circumstances does Ozzie get fired? I think the guy's burned out. I hope the off-season makes him humbler and hungrier.

When the Sox hired Guillen I had the same reaction as I did when Halas hired Ditka. "We may or may not win, but it's gonna be entertaining." Ozzie in many ways is precisely like Ditka: 1) this is their dream job; 2) they played passionately for the Bears/Sox; 3) were both scoffed at by the media when they were hired; and 4) they both brought their beloved teams a Championship.

I think he needs to back off, put a chip on his and the team's shoulder and get re-energized.

Chicken Dinner
09-25-2006, 01:00 PM
All the controversy, the TV commercials, and the TV specials has definitely distracted Ozzie this year. If he's burnt out, he brought a lot of that on himself.

JB98
09-25-2006, 06:21 PM
All the controversy, the TV commercials, and the TV specials has definitely distracted Ozzie this year. If he's burnt out, he brought a lot of that on himself.

How do you know he was distracted?

Scots-Sox
09-27-2006, 01:44 PM
There is one constant in professional and - to a large extent - big time college sports; at some point the coach will either be fired or move on. I'd like to know from the "he won a WS for us, he can do what he pleases" crowd under what circumstances does Ozzie get fired? I think the guy's burned out. I hope the off-season makes him humbler and hungrier.

When the Sox hired Guillen I had the same reaction as I did when Halas hired Ditka. "We may or may not win, but it's gonna be entertaining." Ozzie in many ways is precisely like Ditka: 1) this is their dream job; 2) they played passionately for the Bears/Sox; 3) were both scoffed at by the media when they were hired; and 4) they both brought their beloved teams a Championship.

I think he needs to back off, put a chip on his and the team's shoulder and get re-energized.


Hm-mmm two further similarities maybe. Ditka inherited a legend in Walter Payton, Ozzie got Frank. Ditka brought in a bit of a wild boy/rebel but a leader in Jim McMahon, Ozzie got A.J.

soxfan13
09-27-2006, 02:04 PM
Hm-mmm two further similarities maybe. Ditka inherited a legend in Walter Payton, Ozzie got Frank. Ditka brought in a bit of a wild boy/rebel but a leader in Jim McMahon, Ozzie got A.J.

How dare you taint the greatest running back ever by comparing him to frank:smile:

steve
09-27-2006, 02:11 PM
Hey Sox fans.

Steve Bunin here, from ESPN. A friend showed me a hit from Oct.2005 here, and I just saw it for myself. (It was about a night I was co-hosting GAME NIGHT on ESPN Radio, and said the Red Sox were overrated, that they & the Yanks were getting too much coverage b/c we have a bit of an East Coast bias here, and that the White Sox were my pick to win it all). Gotta say - glad I was right, but more importantly, thanks for the props!

Can't say I'm rooting for you, and I wouldn't, as I grew up in Seattle a die-hard fan of the sucky M's teams of the 70s, 80s, 90s, and today (sounds like a weak radio ad) ... but thanks for listening & watching! Peace out.

soxfan13
09-27-2006, 02:15 PM
Hey Sox fans.

Steve Bunin here, from ESPN. A friend showed me a hit from Oct.2005 here, and I just saw it for myself. (It was about a night I was co-hosting GAME NIGHT on ESPN Radio, and said the Red Sox were overrated, that they & the Yanks were getting too much coverage b/c we have a bit of an East Coast bias here, and that the White Sox were my pick to win it all). Gotta say - glad I was right, but more importantly, thanks for the props!

Can't say I'm rooting for you, and I wouldn't, as I grew up in Seattle a die-hard fan of the sucky M's teams of the 70s, 80s, 90s, and today (sounds like a weak radio ad) ... but thanks for listening & watching! Peace out.

Hang out here it gets better:smile:

Scots-Sox
09-27-2006, 02:25 PM
How dare you taint the greatest running back ever by comparing him to frank:smile:

I wasn't a Bears fan back then but as a neutral fan I loved watching "Sweetness" - absolute legend.