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View Full Version : Ozzie Guillen == Billy Martin?


A. Cavatica
09-21-2006, 09:47 PM
George F. Will, on Martin. Recognize anyone?

"'Turbulent' is altogether too pallid an adjective to describe his life."

"Martin was a rheostat who could turn up a club's energy level. He enriched his teams' menus of offensive options with bunts, base stealing and other measures that make opponents edgy and error-prone."

"Martin's tactics did make opponents tense and distracted, but no more so than his personality made his own players."

"Martin was the quick fix for teams in too much of a hurry to rely on the slow, steady development of young players, the formulation of real baseball success."

"Adrenaline and fury could carry him to heights where he really didn't belong. Similarly, as a manager he could briefly energize his teams, eliciting bursts of success. But they were not sustainable."

"He became increasingly paranoid and destructive of himself and all those around him. And he was a bad manager."

TornLabrum
09-21-2006, 09:58 PM
Billy Martin was an alcoholic misanthrope. Ozzie doesn't remind me of him one bit.

Palehose13
09-21-2006, 10:01 PM
"Martin was the quick fix for teams in too much of a hurry to rely on the slow, steady development of young players, the formulation of real baseball success."


How in the hell is that like Guillen? (Garland and Crede come to mind)

A. Cavatica
09-21-2006, 10:04 PM
How in the hell is that like Guillen? (Garland and Crede come to mind)

:anderson:

"Makes sense to me."

fquaye149
09-21-2006, 10:06 PM
:anderson:

"Makes sense to me."

Considering how long Ozzie's stuck with Garland, Crede, Uribe, Jenks, Cotts, and McCarthy, I think you might want to wait until you have some more information on exactly WHAT'S going on w/ BA before you make kneejerk comments.

After all--he started Sweeney over BA the other day...yup he hates them young keeds.

Palehose13
09-21-2006, 10:07 PM
:anderson:

"Makes sense to me."

One example does not make it true for every player. I understand why he pulled BA in June/July. He stuck with him when he was way below the Mendoza line for a couple of months. Now, I think he should be in there now since he has been aboe to hit. However, Guillen has a better track record of stickign with young guys than not. Dusty Baker is one I think of when one says "Doesn't give young players a chance."

Palehose13
09-21-2006, 10:08 PM
Considering how long Ozzie's stuck with Garland, Crede, Uribe, Jenks, Cotts, and McCarthy, I think you might want to wait until you have some more information on exactly WHAT'S going on w/ BA before you make kneejerk comments.

After all--he started Sweeney over BA the other day...yup he hates them young keeds.

Thanks. That is exactly what I was trying to type.

A. Cavatica
09-21-2006, 10:15 PM
Oh, and check this out:


Martin:
1980 Oakland 162 83 79 .512 2
1981 Oakland 60 37 23 .617 1 First half
1981 Oakland 49 27 22 .551 2 Second half
1982 Oakland 162 68 94 .420 5

Ozzie:
2004 ChicagoW 162 83 79 .512 2
2005 ChicagoW 162 99 63 .611 WS 1
2006 ChicagoW 152 85 67 .559 3
(.556 if we lose tonight)

FarWestChicago
09-21-2006, 10:17 PM
Oh, and check this out:


Martin:
1980 Oakland 162 83 79 .512 2
1981 Oakland 60 37 23 .617 1 First half
1981 Oakland 49 27 22 .551 2 Second half
1982 Oakland 162 68 94 .420 5

Ozzie:
2004 ChicagoW 162 83 79 .512 2
2005 ChicagoW 162 99 63 .611 WS 1
2006 ChicagoW 152 85 67 .559 3
(.556 if we lose tonight)
Check out what? Put down the bong and back away. :?:

SOXandILLINI
09-21-2006, 10:18 PM
Oh, and check this out:


Martin:
1980 Oakland 162 83 79 .512 2
1981 Oakland 60 37 23 .617 1 First half
1981 Oakland 49 27 22 .551 2 Second half
1982 Oakland 162 68 94 .420 5

Ozzie:
2004 ChicagoW 162 83 79 .512 2
2005 ChicagoW 162 99 63 .611 WS 1
2006 ChicagoW 152 85 67 .559 3
(.556 if we lose tonight)

if we lose tonight?.. lol.. ozzie is no where near the manager that billy martin was. now billy did have some problems...:smile:

wassagstdu
09-21-2006, 10:34 PM
Utter nonsense. Ozzie Guillen == Ozzie Guillen.

TornLabrum
09-21-2006, 10:39 PM
Well, there is one connection. When Martin managed the A's they called it Billy Ball.

A. Cavatica
09-21-2006, 10:42 PM
Where, exactly does the comparison miss?

Ozzie's managerial career has been nothing if not turbulent. He shoots his mouth off instead of getting in bar fights, but he's frequently the center of attention.
Ozzie uses bunts and aggressive baserunning to unnerve the other team, as much as he does for strategy.
Ozzie's more than willing to throw a player under the bus.
This team's window of opportunity is now, and Ozzie's expected to win, not to develop players. KW trades prospects for veterans, and Ozzie plays Mackowiak instead of Anderson. (Garland? Crede? Uribe? These are six- and seven-year veterans, not developing players. And note: Will says Martin was the quick fix for teams that were impatient to win, not that Martin was impatient.)
This team's won-lost arc is eerily similar to at least one Billy Martin team, the 1980-1981 A's, which were also built on power and deep starting pitching.I never said Ozzie was an alcoholic misanthrope, but in baseball terms he sure looks like Billy Martin.

SOXandILLINI
09-21-2006, 10:45 PM
Utter nonsense. Ozzie Guillen == Ozzie Guillen.
unfotunately for us, you are correct.

fquaye149
09-21-2006, 10:51 PM
Where, exactly does the comparison miss?
Ozzie's managerial career has been nothing if not turbulent. He shoots his mouth off instead of getting in bar fights, but he's frequently the center of attention.
Ozzie uses bunts and aggressive baserunning to unnerve the other team, as much as he does for strategy.
Ozzie's more than willing to throw a player under the bus.
This team's window of opportunity is now, and Ozzie's expected to win, not to develop players. KW trades prospects for veterans, and Ozzie plays Mackowiak instead of Anderson. (Garland? Crede? Uribe? These are six- and seven-year veterans, not developing players. And note: Will says Martin was the quick fix for teams that were impatient to win, not that Martin was impatient.)
This team's won-lost arc is eerily similar to at least one Billy Martin team, the 1980-1981 A's, which were also built on power and deep starting pitching.I never said Ozzie was an alcoholic misanthrope, but in baseball terms he sure looks like Billy Martin.

Things in bold are merely your opinion and have nothing to do with whatever "stats" (aka George Will quotations) have come up in this thread

And PS--you're saying the Garland who had his career year 2 years into Ozzie's tenure isn't a developing player at 27? HA! Likewise for Crede...yeah he didn't develop at all under Ozzie.

GMAMFB

TornLabrum
09-21-2006, 10:54 PM
Where, exactly does the comparison miss?
Ozzie's managerial career has been nothing if not turbulent. He shoots his mouth off instead of getting in bar fights, but he's frequently the center of attention.I'd call the turbulence of Martin's career about a category 5. Ozzie's is a tropical depression compared to that.



Ozzie uses bunts and aggressive baserunning to unnerve the other team, as much as he does for strategy.So have countless other managers since Al Spalding and Harry Wright.


Ozzie's more than willing to throw a player under the bus.[/LIST]I think this is a gross exaggeration.



This team's window of opportunity is now, and Ozzie's expected to win, not to develop players. KW trades prospects for veterans, and Ozzie plays Mackowiak instead of Anderson. (Garland? Crede? Uribe? These are six- and seven-year veterans, not developing players. And note: Will says Martin was the quick fix for teams that were impatient to win, not that Martin was impatient.)So where is the parallel with Martin in your first two or three sentences? I'm still looking for one.



This team's won-lost arc is eerily similar to at least one Billy Martin team, the 1980-1981 A's, which were also built on power and deep starting pitching.I never said Ozzie was an alcoholic misanthrope, but in baseball terms he sure looks like Billy Martin.

As for that starting pitching, Martin blew out a few arms by overusing them. Thus the collapse at the end of his tenure there.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-21-2006, 11:39 PM
Billy Martin was allowed to manage over 2,000 games - something Ozzie will never be allowed to accomplish.

Billy Martin won three straight American League pennants - two of which were World Series titles.

Billy Martin finished 1st or 2nd in 11 of his 19 seasons of managing - when they had 6 / 7 teams in each division.

A. Cavatica
09-21-2006, 11:40 PM
Things in bold are merely your opinion and have nothing to do with whatever "stats" (aka George Will quotations) have come up in this thread

Not (just) my opinion, sorry...

""He told me to run, run, run," said Willie Harris about the green light given him by Ozzie Guillen this year, consequences be damned. "He told me if I get thrown out, who cares? Be aggressive."" -- Harris, quoted in
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2747

''I will never protect my players. You know me now. If I have to throw my players under the bus, I will." -- Ozzie, http://www.suntimes.com/output/telander/cst-spt-rick20.html

"...the pressure to win again probably is greater on the White Sox than on any recent champion. That's because a key aspect of general manager Ken Williams' plan has been to think on a grand scale, to treat the franchise like the big-market team it should be." -- The Sporting News, http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=79889


fquaye149, Bill James studied the correlation between age and performance in great detail. Players' career peaks come around age 27, on average. Garland pitching better at ages 25 and 26 than he did at 24 should be no surprise. Nor should Crede having his best years at 27 and 28.

TornLabrum, we both know that Martin was infamous for identifying the few good pitchers on his staff and overusing them. (Those A's teams posted incredible numbers of complete games.) I'm glad we have not seen that from Ozzie, at least to the same degree. But the decline of his teams after the "quick fix" is attributable to Martin's personality as well as starters' innings.

fquaye149
09-21-2006, 11:56 PM
Not (just) my opinion, sorry...

""He told me to run, run, run," said Willie Harris about the green light given him by Ozzie Guillen this year, consequences be damned. "He told me if I get thrown out, who cares? Be aggressive."" -- Harris, quoted in
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2747


And yet that doesn't say that he prioritizes "putting pressure on the other team". Perhaps that's what it took to get Willie's head out of his ass and run with authority.


''I will never protect my players. You know me now. If I have to throw my players under the bus, I will." -- Ozzie, http://www.suntimes.com/output/telander/cst-spt-rick20.html

And yet who has he actually thrown on the bus?

Lee and Ordonez...ex-players

and Uribe who we all agree deserves it.


"...the pressure to win again probably is greater on the White Sox than on any recent champion. That's because a key aspect of general manager Ken Williams' plan has been to think on a grand scale, to treat the franchise like the big-market team it should be." -- The Sporting News, http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=79889


Ah the sporting news, the bastion of sports journalism insight...oh wait...that was back before it became an SI clone.


fquaye149, Bill James studied the correlation between age and performance in great detail. Players' career peaks come around age 27, on average. Garland pitching better at ages 25 and 26 than he did at 24 should be no surprise. Nor should Crede having his best years at 27 and 28.

and yet this isn't what's going on in reality. Bill James has done some great research and his numbers bear out, but if you act like Garland and Crede didn't mature under Ozzie you're absolutely certifiably insane.

ChiSox80
09-22-2006, 12:03 AM
Billy Martin used to manage while half-lit. That's why he was insane. They're very different.

A. Cavatica
09-22-2006, 12:33 AM
And yet that doesn't say that he prioritizes "putting pressure on the other team". Perhaps that's what it took to get Willie's head out of his ass and run with authority.


OK, how about this 2005 quote from KW?

"We hit 242 home runs last year, and we can walk into any city New York or Boston and we could embarrass you," Williams said. "That didn't lead to consistent output, but now we're in the game every day and try to make the other team make a mistake and seize the opportunity." -- http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bb/3254045.html

This is talking about the team KW put together for Ozzie, so they could play his style, which is to be aggressive and put pressure on the other team even if it's not always good strategy. I don't know how I can lay it out any more clearly for you.


And yet who has he actually thrown on the bus?

Lee and Ordonez...ex-players

and Uribe who we all agree deserves it.


Just this year, I can think of reasons all of the following might have a beef with Ozzie: Tracey; Garland; Uribe; Anderson; Widger; McCarthy; Pierzynski; Iguchi; Podsednik; McCarthy. Of course the degree varied, and several of them did deserve it -- but that's beside the point. Ozzie has shown up quite a few players in public, and that doesn't build loyalty.


Ah the sporting news, the bastion of sports journalism insight...oh wait...that was back before it became an SI clone.


This is untrue because Sporting News printed it? You think the Sox added $25 million in payroll because they wanted to develop prospects? :o:


and yet this isn't what's going on in reality. Bill James has done some great research and his numbers bear out, but if you act like Garland and Crede didn't mature under Ozzie you're absolutely certifiably insane.


I'll concede they did mature under Ozzie, even though Ozzie happens to coincide with the years where they would be expected to mature, because I still don't see what your point is. Five-year veterans (which Garland & Crede were when things started to click) are a lot different from first- and second-year players, like Anderson & McCarthy. They produce more, and they're paid more. A team that's impatient to win will trust a five-year veteran a lot more easily than it'll trust a rookie.

Britt Burns
09-22-2006, 12:52 AM
Ozzie is a million times the manager that Billy Martin ever was. Just because he is loud or 'contraversial' doesn't mean he is self destructive or puts his ego above the welfare of the team.

A. Cavatica
09-22-2006, 01:07 AM
At least I'm not the only bong-smoking, certifiably insane observer to draw this comparison. Try googling "Ozzie Guillen Billy Martin"...


""Ozzie reminds me of Billy Martin," said White Sox pitching coach Don Cooper, who played under Martin with the New York Yankees in 1985. "What I noticed with Billy was, as soon as the game was over, all of (the media) would run and follow him because you all knew that that would be the story. He would give you everything you needed to do your job, and I think that's good, because it takes a lot off players. They may not have to answer a lot of questions. That's a good thing. "Also, with Billy in the room, you knew who was in charge. That's a refreshing thing now. Here in Chicago, the inmates don't run the asylum.""
-- http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051013/news_1s13alnotes.html

"Not since Billy Martin has baseball seen a manager who was so combative, unyielding in his views and, at least for a time, enormously popular with his players. And not since Martin has baseball had a manager so keen to light the fuse to the dynamite directly under his own seat."
-- the estimable Tom Boswell, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/10/AR2006071001414.html

""Billy was aggressive. Players loved him. They would go through a wall for him," Harrelson said. "And Ozzie has a chance to be of that ilk.""
-- Hawk, from a Chris de Luca story in the Sun-Times, http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20051023/ai_n16492882

"...the reason people tolerate Guillen in Chicago is that his team is winning. The moment that changes, Guillen, like Billy Martin before him, will quickly get frogmarched out of town."
http://www.danieldrezner.com/archives/002766.html

And finally, addressing TornLabrum's comment...

""At first glance, the sheer amount of pitches thrown by the White Sox rotation over the past few years might explain why the starters have been somewhat inconsistent through the first half of 2006. According to John Dewan's Stat of the Week, the White Sox went into the final week of June with four of the highest pitch-count totals in all of baseball since the start of 2003. Mark Buehrle ranked fourth at 12,103, Javier Vazquez sat sixth at 11,628, Freddy Garcia was seventh at 11,507 and Jon Garland rounded out the top 10 with 11,218. Livan Hernandez topped all of baseball during this particular time frame with 13,127 pitches."

It's no coincidence that Livan's arm is toast. With a bad bullpen and starters who threw complete games in the playoffs, Ozzie Guillen decided to be Billy Martin and just ride these guys' arms into the ground, which will be painfully evident come September."
-- quote from Scott Merkin, analysis by http://www.brothersjudd.com/blog/archives/2006/07/ozzie_does_bill.html

TDog
09-22-2006, 03:53 AM
Well, there is one connection. When Martin managed the A's they called it Billy Ball.

And they were both middle infielders.

Baby Fisk
09-22-2006, 11:29 AM
Billy Martin was an alcoholic misanthrope. Ozzie doesn't remind me of him one bit.
You can add self-loathing paranoiac to that description. Ozzie Guillen is nothing like Billy Martin.

Scottzilla
09-22-2006, 11:50 AM
George Will is a cubs fan and is therefore discredited.

daveeym
09-22-2006, 12:05 PM
I think it's too early to really tell but there are some frightening similarities there.

SOXandILLINI
09-22-2006, 02:51 PM
Ozzie is a million times the manager that Billy Martin ever was. Just because he is loud or 'contraversial' doesn't mean he is self destructive or puts his ego above the welfare of the team.

this just might be the winner of the funniest post i have ever seen contest, well done.