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Jjav829
09-20-2006, 11:43 PM
Agree or disgree with it, I think Rozner makes a very good argument here. Everyone should read this.

Truly, if thereís a group to put the weight on, itís the starting rotation, and after what they gave of themselves to give to you last October, you should be thankful instead of angry.

Their failure this year is a direct result of their winning last year, and if this is the price you pay for the first World Series in Chicago since Moses was a child, it was worth every penny.


Link (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/rozner.asp?id=229026)

Parrothead
09-20-2006, 11:52 PM
Agree or disgree with it, I think Rozner makes a very good argument here. Everyone should read this.

Link (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/rozner.asp?id=229026)

I might be wrong but I think the pitchers for Atlanta made the playoffs for about 14 years in a row. So it can be done. I am not mad but I am tired of hearing the excuse that the pitchers played in October. That and the loss of Rowand caused the demise. The Sox are still 17 games over .500, there was no collaspe just unmet expectations. Other teams played better it happens.

chisoxmike
09-21-2006, 12:42 AM
That and the loss of Rowand caused the demise.


No, it wasn't. Last time I checked Rowand left in the offseason. The Sox were a pretty ****ing good team without him in the first half.

The failure of 2006 will go down with the pitching and lack of execution of the offense down the stretch.

JB98
09-21-2006, 12:51 AM
No, it wasn't. Last time I checked Rowand left in the offseason. The Sox were a pretty ****ing good team without him in the first half.

The failure of 2006 will go down with the pitching and lack of execution of the offense down the stretch.

Through no fault of his own, I actually hate Rowand now. I'm sick of hearing about how his departure supposedly caused the demise of the White Sox. I've never seen our fan base overrate a player to this extent.

ilsox7
09-21-2006, 12:58 AM
Through no fault of his own, I actually hate Rowand now. I'm sick of hearing about how his departure supposedly caused the demise of the White Sox. I've never seen our fan base overrate a player to this extent.

:thumbsup:

chisoxmike
09-21-2006, 01:08 AM
Through no fault of his own, I actually hate Rowand now. I'm sick of hearing about how his departure supposedly caused the demise of the White Sox. I've never seen our fan base overrate a player to this extent.


Thank you.:bandance:

SOXintheBURGH
09-21-2006, 01:10 AM
Through no fault of his own, I actually hate Rowand now. I'm sick of hearing about how his departure supposedly caused the demise of the White Sox. I've never seen our fan base overrate a player to this extent.

But... but.. but... Aaron's a big Bears fan!!

russ99
09-21-2006, 07:37 AM
I might be wrong but I think the pitchers for Atlanta made the playoffs for about 14 years in a row. So it can be done. I am not mad but I am tired of hearing the excuse that the pitchers played in October. That and the loss of Rowand caused the demise. The Sox are still 17 games over .500, there was no collaspe just unmet expectations. Other teams played better it happens.

Agreed, but I also think the World Baseball Craptacular had something to do with the pitching dropoff too. The Sox didn't have a "normal" spring training, either. As for the Rowand excuse, I don't put too much into that, but there's a huge difference defensively from Rowand to Mackowiak playing out of position every day, and we forget that Aaron also took a lot of plays for the other outfielders last season. Maybe that's why Pods looks so horrible in left this year, too.

As disappointed as I am about this season, 90 wins isn't too shabby.

jenn2080
09-21-2006, 07:39 AM
Through no fault of his own, I actually hate Rowand now. I'm sick of hearing about how his departure supposedly caused the demise of the White Sox. I've never seen our fan base overrate a player to this extent.


Here Here! I am so tired of the Aaron lovefest. It is gross!!!!!!!!! :bandance:

jenn2080
09-21-2006, 07:40 AM
Agreed, but I also think the World Baseball Craptacular had something to do with the pitching dropoff too. The Sox didn't have a "normal" spring training, either.


That is just an excuse! There are plenty of other teams that had their players there and they are now fine.

Fuller_Schettman
09-21-2006, 07:47 AM
Rozner is right on! If the Bears cannot take this gift-wrapped conference title, then indeed we are in terrible shape! :cool:

soxfanatlanta
09-21-2006, 07:59 AM
Agree or disgree with it, I think Rozner makes a very good argument here. Everyone should read this.
Link (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/rozner.asp?id=229026)

That article is baloney.

Ask Joe Torre.
Ask Bobby Cox.

As for the Bears...we shall see.

wdelaney72
09-21-2006, 08:10 AM
Through no fault of his own, I actually hate Rowand now. I'm sick of hearing about how his departure supposedly caused the demise of the White Sox. I've never seen our fan base overrate a player to this extent.

+1

wdelaney72
09-21-2006, 08:12 AM
As much as I like Rozner, he's flat out wrong. I understand it's nearly impossible to repeat World Series championships. I think most Sox fans understand that. We're talking about not even making a playoff appearance. This team not simply making the playoffs is INEXCUSABLE. Period.

batmanZoSo
09-21-2006, 08:32 AM
At least I agree with his Bears assessment. This is the Shufflin' Crew Part Deux.

samram
09-21-2006, 08:40 AM
Using Rozner's logic, the only way to get back to the playoffs after winning the WS is to completely dismantle the pitching staff and bring in all new guys- I mean, look how well that worked for the Marlins in 1998.

MeteorsSox4367
09-21-2006, 09:06 AM
The failure of 2006 will go down with the pitching and lack of execution of the offense down the stretch.


chisoxmike: Bingo. Exactly. That is correct, sir.

Even Hawk mentioned something on the telecast Wednesday night about all the DPs the Sox hit into this season. All the times they left runners on second and third with one out or a man on third with no outs...AARRGGHH!!

kevingrt
09-21-2006, 09:12 AM
I'm not going to go in the direction of you guys, but even though this was a year of agony. I will not lie winning the World Series last year makes this much easier to take.

batmanZoSo
09-21-2006, 09:30 AM
Oh, and by the way, please shut the **** up about Aaron Rowand already for the love of GOD. He's a mediocre player, period, so stop canonizing him like he's the patron saint of grinderdom and his departure the cause of our downfall. He was along for the ride, just like Timo, and he ain't coming back. Nor should he. Rowand's gone. The 77 team sucked. Quit embracing mediocrity.

Iwritecode
09-21-2006, 09:49 AM
I'm not going to go in the direction of you guys, but even though this was a year of agony. I will not lie winning the World Series last year makes this much easier to take.

I almost think it makes it worse.

In years past, this was just par for the course. Have a decent season, stay in contention up until the end of the season and then come up just short.

This year expectations were raised a little more. I didn't expect a repeat but is making the playoffs 2 years in a row really too much to ask?

MarySwiss
09-21-2006, 09:56 AM
Oh, hell! Bears only 4-1? I'm planning to make my drive to Laughlin in a week or two to bet the Sox and Bears and was hoping for better odds.

viagracat
09-21-2006, 10:00 AM
Rozner was right about Thome/Thomas. Nobody in his right mind would have expected Thomas to have the year he had last spring. And even if they did, Thome's more than done the job, and is a clubhouse leader by all accounts.

I don't buy the starting pitching argument; in that some extra games tired them out. Those extra games were a long time ago, and starting pitching has not been the problem the last couple of weeks. Besides, as noted by others here, going to the playoffs every year don't seem to affect the Yankees, Braves and other winning franchises.

I partially agree with the "hunger" thing. On the one hand, the lion had his fill last year after starving for a long time. I don't think the urgency to win this year was there like it was last year. OTOH, I somehow think there was more working here than just that. Whether it's because they were more complacent, Ozzie's magic potion was wearing off or some other reason, I'm not sure. All I know is they didn't get it done in the second half and should have been much better with the talent they had.

And I also agree it's past time to **** about Rowand once and for all.

spiffie
09-21-2006, 10:01 AM
Oh, hell! Bears only 4-1? I'm planning to make my drive to Laughlin in a week or two to bet the Sox and Bears and was hoping for better odds.
you might want to wait for a loss. They had a poll on ESPN asking which 2-0 NFC team was likely to be in the Super Bowl, and the Bears had a majority of the vote with something like 53%, and led in about 35 of the states. The Bear bandwagon got packed tight after last week.

ZombieRob
09-21-2006, 10:06 AM
Sox and K.W have basically to 2008 when alot of contracts run out .Personally next year id like to see a little mixture of youth and veterans in the line-up just to give this team a little more energy.At some long stretches the energy just seemed to be sapped out from the team.

CPditka
09-21-2006, 10:12 AM
Our only excuse is our inability to execute and deliver in the clutch. I am totally on board in saying that our staff being tired is garbage. The Braves rode their staff like it was frickin Secretariat for 14 seasons.


On a side note, what makes all of this worse is my Cubs friends saying. "It doesn't matter how many games you won this year, you missed the playoffs just like we did this year"... irritating. Even after I counter, well we did win that one thing last year. They just get under my skin putting us in the same class as them, because as Ozzie and KW have been saying. If you don't win it all, you are all in the same class, Losers. Harsh, but true.

MarySwiss
09-21-2006, 10:14 AM
you might want to wait for a loss. They had a poll on ESPN asking which 2-0 NFC team was likely to be in the Super Bowl, and the Bears had a majority of the vote with something like 53%, and led in about 35 of the states. The Bear bandwagon got packed tight after last week.

Yeah, but what if they don't lose? Which, by the way, would be fine with me. :smile:

34 Inch Stick
09-21-2006, 10:18 AM
Vazquez, Garcia and Garland all pitched better as the year went on. That does not seem like the hallmark of an overworked staff to me.

champagne030
09-21-2006, 10:22 AM
Oh, and by the way, please shut the **** up about Aaron Rowand already for the love of GOD. He's a mediocre player, period, so stop canonizing him like he's the patron saint of grinderdom and his departure the cause of our downfall. He was along for the ride, just like Timo, and he ain't coming back. Nor should he. Rowand's gone. The 77 team sucked. Quit embracing mediocrity.

:?: So the 2006 Sox suck? Will they win 90 to match the '77 team?

ktssox
09-21-2006, 10:30 AM
Oh, and by the way, please shut the **** up about Aaron Rowand already for the love of GOD. He's a mediocre player, period, so stop canonizing him like he's the patron saint of grinderdom and his departure the cause of our downfall. He was along for the ride, just like Timo, and he ain't coming back. Nor should he. Rowand's gone. The 77 team sucked. Quit embracing mediocrity.

I have a question. Why do some people on here get SO angry that people like Aaron Rowand and like the style of baseball that he plays? I don't think he was mediocre at all. I think he brought A LOT to the team last year. Why does everybody have to rant and rave because people saw something in him that they liked? I wish the guys on the team this year showed half the heart that Aaron did last year. People shouldn't have to worry that they're going to be looked at as a moron and told to shut the **** up when they talk about a player they liked who contributed greatly to a championship team. That's what this board is for - discussion. People like him and wish he were still here. Why can't you deal with that?

oddlot
09-21-2006, 10:34 AM
If Buehrle and Posednik had had good seasons rather than off seasons, the White Sox would be playing for home field advantage.

The rest of the reasons why the team has fallen off are just noise, but good fuel for parlor talk nonetheless.

Oddlot

batmanZoSo
09-21-2006, 10:39 AM
I have a question. Why do some people on here get SO angry that people like Aaron Rowand and like the style of baseball that he plays? I don't think he was mediocre at all. I think he brought A LOT to the team last year. Why does everybody have to rant and rave because people saw something in him that they liked? I wish the guys on the team this year showed half the heart that Aaron did last year. People shouldn't have to worry that they're going to be looked at as a moron and told to shut the **** up when they talk about a player they liked who contributed greatly to a championship team. That's what this board is for - discussion. People like him and wish he were still here. Why can't you deal with that?

:rolleyes:

It's clearly not about any of that. It's about letting it go and moving on and recognizing that the loss of one mediocre center fielder--that was replaced with a much better one mind you--is not the reason for our downfall. How long must we deal with it is the question.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-21-2006, 10:49 AM
If Buehrle and Posednik had had good seasons rather than off seasons, the White Sox would be playing for home field advantage.

The rest of the reasons why the team has fallen off are just noise, but good fuel for parlor talk nonetheless.

Oddlot

Or if the Sox had 8-9-1 hitters who did not kill off every single rally and start no rallies, the Sox would be in the playoffs. The three in those positions will be changed for next year.

ktssox
09-21-2006, 10:55 AM
:rolleyes:

It's clearly not about any of that. It's about letting it go and moving on and recognizing that the loss of one mediocre center fielder--that was replaced with a much better one mind you--is not the reason for our downfall. How long must we deal with it is the question.

Cool eyeroll, thanks. This is exactly what I'm talking about - making people feel like their opinion is not valid. Maybe it's because of all the losses lately, but people around here are getting a little mean. Maybe you think the team is losing because of the pitching or a lack of offense, but is it completely unreasonable for someone to think that a lack of heart/hunger might be an issue too? And BTW - our manager doesn't play that much better centerfielder. Maybe if he did, people wouldn't be missing Aaron so much. So, shut the **** up.

spiffie
09-21-2006, 11:00 AM
I have a question. Why do some people on here get SO angry that people like Aaron Rowand and like the style of baseball that he plays? I don't think he was mediocre at all. I think he brought A LOT to the team last year. Why does everybody have to rant and rave because people saw something in him that they liked? I wish the guys on the team this year showed half the heart that Aaron did last year. People shouldn't have to worry that they're going to be looked at as a moron and told to shut the **** up when they talk about a player they liked who contributed greatly to a championship team. That's what this board is for - discussion. People like him and wish he were still here. Why can't you deal with that?
Because people continually attribute some sort of magic power to him that would have lifted the team to greatness if only he were here. Aaron was a decent hitting CF with a little power, bad jumps on balls hit to him, and very little baseball acumen (look at his baserunning in the playoffs). He played very hard and people liked him for that. But for the whole ****ing year people have been bleating about Aaron as though he were Willie Mays. And after six months of it frankly it has grown tiresome. And I loved Aaron. My season tickets are in CF, so I watched him run into the wall and dive and give his heart out there plenty, and appreciated it. But he's gone. He was a mediocre CF who gets by on heart. But people who are saying if only Aaron was here we would be so much better are not having a "discussion", they're bleating nonsense and might as well be saying "if we only let the players ride unicorns around the bases we would be so much better."

spiffie
09-21-2006, 11:04 AM
Maybe you think the team is losing because of the pitching or a lack of offense, but is it completely unreasonable for someone to think that a lack of heart/hunger might be an issue too?
Did they only lose the hunger over the 4th of July weekend? Or was it that simply seeing Aaron on ring day gave them enough inspiration that they played .667 ball through the first half of the season? If you want to talk about things like "hunger" or "heart" at least have something to back it up with.

And BTW - our manager doesn't play that much better centerfielder. Maybe if he did, people wouldn't be missing Aaron so much.
On this, I agree with you. If he played the Gold Glove caliber CF who has hit .290 the last two or so months more often, maybe people would start to let Aaron go.

johnr1note
09-21-2006, 11:04 AM
If Buehrle and Posednik had had good seasons rather than off seasons, the White Sox would be playing for home field advantage.

The rest of the reasons why the team has fallen off are just noise, but good fuel for parlor talk nonetheless.

Oddlot

I think oddlot is on point here.

If Buehrle is anywhere near what he was last year, we are 5 games further up in the standings.

Bullpen guyes like Cliff and Cotts were lights out last year -- they came down to earth. I think if one or two of our bullpen guys were more consistent, we get anywhere from 3 to 10 more wins. How many games this year did we blow a lead because the bullpen couldn't hold, or let up more runs so late inning rallies fell short?

Those two factors alone would put us in first.

But Pods not having it together, and the shift from playing fundamental "get `em on, move `em over, get `em in" which basically won the world series for us last year, to an overreliance on the home run (how many runs have we manufactured against Detroit this week? I'll tell you -- ZERO!!) has caused us to become the kind of team we are used to on the South Side -- competitive, but not quite good enough.

I don't think we need to retool -- we need to get back to playing smart baseball. We need Buehrle and Contreras to catch the form they had last year. We need a few more dependable middle relievers. And then, we can make the post season again.

southside rocks
09-21-2006, 11:06 AM
I've never seen our fan base overrate a player to this extent.

Take a look at the "Brian Anderson is greater than any ten HOF players" movement that is currently in full surge. :tongue:

spiffie
09-21-2006, 11:14 AM
Yeah, but what if they don't lose? Which, by the way, would be fine with me. :smile:
Then consider your lack of a winning bet to be a sacrifice for the good of the team. :D:

batmanZoSo
09-21-2006, 11:16 AM
Because people continually attribute some sort of magic power to him that would have lifted the team to greatness if only he were here. Aaron was a decent hitting CF with a little power, bad jumps on balls hit to him, and very little baseball acumen (look at his baserunning in the playoffs). He played very hard and people liked him for that. But for the whole ****ing year people have been bleating about Aaron as though he were Willie Mays. And after six months of it frankly it has grown tiresome. And I loved Aaron. My season tickets are in CF, so I watched him run into the wall and dive and give his heart out there plenty, and appreciated it. But he's gone. He was a mediocre CF who gets by on heart. But people who are saying if only Aaron was here we would be so much better are not having a "discussion", they're bleating nonsense and might as well be saying "if we only let the players ride unicorns around the bases we would be so much better."

And above all, people--and it looks like management too--seem to be putting too much emphasis on trying to recapture something elusive about the 05 team, when the reality is we won the World Series because of great pitching. And we didn't repeat because of bad pitching. The intangibles of 05, the baseball "magic" or whatever you want to call it, isn't something you assemble, it just happens when it happens. That mojo or whatever you want to call it allowed us to win it all despite having a questionable lineup. The odds of that happening again are probably astronomical.

If the pitching had performed as expected, we'd be worrying about clinching home field advantage right now. Pitching cures all, mediocre CFers do not.

PennStater98r
09-21-2006, 11:17 AM
I'd like to address two things. The first is that the bullpen is getting off scott-free in this thread.

How many late inning games did the Sox lose the lead due to the bullpen - be it Bobby, Neil, Brandon or Cliff. We can point fingers at Jose, Javier and Mark as much as we want to, but if they were tired and overworked, it is in part due to going deeper into games early on. Furthermore, talk a little bit about lazy defense or the wrong people in the wrong place (Rob) causing all of our pitchers having to make extra pitches.

I'll say this much. There's no way we should have watched the Sox lose three games to K.C. in the first month of baseball. One loss to a team like K.C. would be acceptable and a sweep preferable.

The second thing that really bothers me is the inability to beat quality pitchers or aces of other staffs. The only quality starters that I remember beating all year would be Roy and the Gambler. Please remind me what other quality pitchers we beat - not getting to a teams bullpen after that quality pitcher gets the hook - remind me of aces that we defeated.

MarySwiss
09-21-2006, 11:25 AM
Then consider your lack of a winning bet to be a sacrifice for the good of the team. :D:

Which of course means that my (possibly) losing bet on this year's Sox just plain sucks. :D:

PennStater98r
09-21-2006, 11:27 AM
The intangibles of 05, the baseball "magic" or whatever you want to call it, isn't something you assemble, it just happens when it happens. That mojo or whatever you want to call it allowed us to win it all despite having a questionable lineup. The odds of that happening again are probably astronomical.

I am sorry batman, but I just don't buy this. Frankly, it sounds like something close to, "Wait until next year." I hope as White Sox fans, we never grow comfortable saying such things. I believe that "magic" is fundamentals. When you practice sound fundamentals, teams seem magical.

I am not going to claim we should have another World Series championship at the end of 2006. However, There's no reason that the Sox could not have been back in the playoffs. Good reasons for not accomplishing something are still excuses for failure. This team should be in the playoffs.

It's not magic or mojo that gets you to a playoff spot. It's practicing fundamental baseball. Getting bunts down when you're asked to bunt, moving guys over to second base with less than two outs, getting guys in from third with less than two outs, having some two out rallies, hitting left handed pitching, and beating the occasional ace are the things that allow for you make the playoffs, and they are things this team were consistantly unable to do.

If the pitching had performed as expected, we'd be worrying about clinching home field advantage right now. Pitching cures all, mediocre CFers do not.

That I do agree with. You're right batman. I keep having to point at the bullpen. The first game that I went to was one in which Jenks blew a 2 run lead in the ninth to K.C. That type of thing should not be happening - never to the World Champs.

batmanZoSo
09-21-2006, 11:29 AM
I'd like to address two things. The first is that the bullpen is getting off scott-free in this thread.

How many late inning games did the Sox lose the lead due to the bullpen - be it Bobby, Neil, Brandon or Cliff. We can point fingers at Jose, Javier and Mark as much as we want to, but if they were tired and overworked, it is in part due to going deeper into games early on. Furthermore, talk a little bit about lazy defense or the wrong people in the wrong place (Rob) causing all of our pitchers having to make extra pitches.

I'll say this much. There's no way we should have watched the Sox lose three games to K.C. in the first month of baseball. One loss to a team like K.C. would be acceptable and a sweep preferable.

The second thing that really bothers me is the inability to beat quality pitchers or aces of other staffs. The only quality starters that I remember beating all year would be Roy and the Gambler. Please remind me what other quality pitchers we beat - not getting to a teams bullpen after that quality pitcher gets the hook - remind me of aces that we defeated.

The bullpen is the number one thing to be addressed. Now you can't blame them personally as much because they are what they are--it's KW's fault for not assembling a better one from the get go. They delivered what should've been expected. The rotation however is just a case of underacheivement. They're all very good pitchers, what can we do but hope they bounce back?

KyWhiSoxFan
09-21-2006, 11:30 AM
I'd like to address two things. The first is that the bullpen is getting off scott-free in this thread.

17 blown saves this year for the pen combined. Keep Jenks, MacDougal, and Thornton and get rid of everyone else (McCarthy becomes a starter). We need three new power arms in the pen next year. That and a good leadoff hitter would solve most of the problems.

JB98
09-21-2006, 11:36 AM
Because people continually attribute some sort of magic power to him that would have lifted the team to greatness if only he were here. Aaron was a decent hitting CF with a little power, bad jumps on balls hit to him, and very little baseball acumen (look at his baserunning in the playoffs). He played very hard and people liked him for that. But for the whole ****ing year people have been bleating about Aaron as though he were Willie Mays. And after six months of it frankly it has grown tiresome. And I loved Aaron. My season tickets are in CF, so I watched him run into the wall and dive and give his heart out there plenty, and appreciated it. But he's gone. He was a mediocre CF who gets by on heart. But people who are saying if only Aaron was here we would be so much better are not having a "discussion", they're bleating nonsense and might as well be saying "if we only let the players ride unicorns around the bases we would be so much better."


:supernana:


Like you, I actually liked Aaron when he was here. He's mediocre. But he played hard for us and I appreciated that. As I indicated earlier, I now hate Rowand because I'm so damn sick of hearing about him.

I'm 99.99999999 percent certain we would still be up **** creek without a paddle if Rowand were still here.

batmanZoSo
09-21-2006, 11:37 AM
I am sorry batman, but I just don't buy this. Frankly, it sounds like something close to, "Wait until next year." I hope as White Sox fans, we never grow comfortable saying such things. I believe that "magic" is fundamentals. When you practice sound fundamentals, teams seem magical.

I am not going to claim we should have another World Series championship at the end of 2006. However, There's no reason that the Sox could not have been back in the playoffs. Good reasons for not accomplishing something are still excuses for failure. This team should be in the playoffs.

It's not magic or mojo that gets you to a playoff spot. It's practicing fundamental baseball. Getting bunts down when you're asked to bunt, moving guys over to second base with less than two outs, getting guys in from third with less than two outs, having some two out rallies, hitting left handed pitching, and beating the occasional ace are the things that allow for you make the playoffs, and they are things this team were consistantly unable to do.

Last year's team which was dubbed "small ball," "smart ball," and "Ozzie ball," was in reality a slugging team with a great 1-2. This team returned the same lineup only with Jim Thome in place of Everett, plus much better versions of Crede and Dye. This is a slugging, pitching rich team in the style of 90s Atlanta or early 2000s Oakland. Our only winning formula was going to be pitching and the three run homer. Where these expectations for Twins-style rally-ball and all these fundamentals come from I don't know. Could they have done better in that department? Yes. But those are so minor in the grand scheme of what went wrong in 06.

JB98
09-21-2006, 11:38 AM
Take a look at the "Brian Anderson is greater than any ten HOF players" movement that is currently in full surge. :tongue:

You mean the future perennial All-Star?

Touche. :cool:

ktssox
09-21-2006, 11:41 AM
Did they only lose the hunger over the 4th of July weekend? Or was it that simply seeing Aaron on ring day gave them enough inspiration that they played .667 ball through the first half of the season? If you want to talk about things like "hunger" or "heart" at least have something to back it up with.

I am certainly not saying that this IS the issue. But in my opinion it is part of it, along with things like poor pitching performances and a recent lack of offense at key times. How do I back up something like hunger or heart (maybe, for an example, look to Freddy's statements about only pitching well in "big games")? I don't know. It's either something that seems to be there, or it doesn't. I just don't see it this year, and that is not simply due to Aaron's departure.

But anyway, that wasn't my original point. I just don't understand why people feel the need to berate others for stating their opinions.

batmanZoSo
09-21-2006, 11:42 AM
17 blown saves this year for the pen combined. Keep Jenks, MacDougal, and Thornton and get rid of everyone else (McCarthy becomes a starter). We need three new power arms in the pen next year. That and a good leadoff hitter would solve most of the problems.

That I totally agree with. We have to expect better results out of the rotation and I'm sure we'll get them for the most part. I mean...nobody's hurt, what's the explanation other than it wasn't their year? Greatly improve the bullpen first. Then Buehrle's got to return to form, hopefully McCarthy can step up big and with a productive leadoff man and this lineup's firepower, we should be in business.

spiffie
09-21-2006, 11:46 AM
Which of course means that my (possibly) losing bet on this year's Sox just plain sucks. :D:
Well...yeah. No good way to spin this one :tongue:

southside rocks
09-21-2006, 11:51 AM
I am sorry batman, but I just don't buy this. Frankly, it sounds like something close to, "Wait until next year." I hope as White Sox fans, we never grow comfortable saying such things. I believe that "magic" is fundamentals. When you practice sound fundamentals, teams seem magical.

I am not going to claim we should have another World Series championship at the end of 2006. However, There's no reason that the Sox could not have been back in the playoffs. Good reasons for not accomplishing something are still excuses for failure. This team should be in the playoffs.

It's not magic or mojo that gets you to a playoff spot. It's practicing fundamental baseball. Getting bunts down when you're asked to bunt, moving guys over to second base with less than two outs, getting guys in from third with less than two outs, having some two out rallies, hitting left handed pitching, and beating the occasional ace are the things that allow for you make the playoffs, and they are things this team were consistantly unable to do.


What he said.

This team should be in the playoffs. This team should have played playoff-caliber baseball pretty much all year long, allowing for a slump that happens to every team at some point in the season.

This team isn't going to be in the playoffs, unless the Twins and Tigers team members all come down with food poisoning that lasts two weeks. Spinach, send them some spinach!

This team hasn't played playoff-caliber baseball since the ASB. They had their slump, fine, but then when the started to come out of it, in late July, it was as if they looked around, looked at the effort they'd have to make, and just couldn't -- or wouldn't -- pull it together to make that effort! That, I think, is what has gotten so many fans so upset.

The Sox were 36 games over .500 last year. They're now 18 over with 10 left to play. It doesn't matter how the Tigers or Twins have played, and maybe they both would have beat out the Sox no matter what -- but to reduce a team winning percentage by that much, with an improved team, is inexcusable to me and probably to an awful lot of other fans.

And I hope and pray that it's inexcusable to Kenny Williams.

Law11
09-21-2006, 11:51 AM
As much as I like Rozner, he's flat out wrong. I understand it's nearly impossible to repeat World Series championships. I think most Sox fans understand that. We're talking about not even making a playoff appearance. This team not simply making the playoffs is INEXCUSABLE. Period.


Houston aint going either. And in a sorry division to boot.
I'm sure its happend but when is the last time both WS teams failed to make the playoffs the next year.

kitekrazy
09-21-2006, 11:54 AM
If Buehrle and Posednik had had good seasons rather than off seasons, the White Sox would be playing for home field advantage.

The rest of the reasons why the team has fallen off are just noise, but good fuel for parlor talk nonetheless.

Oddlot

Most of the staff was inconsistent. If there starters were on, the defense, bullpen, timely hitting wasn't.

The pitching was inconsistent thru the whole season. It was the hitting that hid this in the first half.

They went back to station to station baseball. I can't explain it but it looks like the usual mediocrity we've seen before. All we need is Jose Valentin to complete the picture.

palehozenychicty
09-21-2006, 11:57 AM
Last year's team which was dubbed "small ball," "smart ball," and "Ozzie ball," was in reality a slugging team with a great 1-2. This team returned the same lineup only with Jim Thome in place of Everett, plus much better versions of Crede and Dye. This is a slugging, pitching rich team in the style of 90s Atlanta or early 2000s Oakland. But those are so minor in the grand scheme of what went wrong in 06.

Exactly. Last year, they did hit over 200 home runs. Situational hitting was much better as well, but the White Sox are built on pitching and power. The pitching failed, thus the White Sox failed.

Hangar18
09-21-2006, 12:01 PM
Houston aint going either. And in a sorry division to boot.
I'm sure its happend but when is the last time both WS teams failed to make the playoffs the next year.


YES, but the Astros excuse was legitimate. Theyre TERRIBLE. The SOX had no such similar excuse. They shouldve been 8 games in front at this point ...........

Hangar18
09-21-2006, 12:04 PM
Cool eyeroll, thanks. This is exactly what I'm talking about - making people feel like their opinion is not valid.

Hey, im used to it brother. I once mentioned that Jim Thome should be dropped from the #3 hole because he just isnt the same player right now (esp with the way Dye has been playing) and Im told I was roundly mocked.
Dye is batting 3rd now. The 06 Bullpen has been spectacularly bad this year.

Flight #24
09-21-2006, 12:10 PM
Last year's team which was dubbed "small ball," "smart ball," and "Ozzie ball," was in reality a slugging team with a great 1-2. This team returned the same lineup only with Jim Thome in place of Everett, plus much better versions of Crede and Dye. This is a slugging, pitching rich team in the style of 90s Atlanta or early 2000s Oakland. Our only winning formula was going to be pitching and the three run homer. Where these expectations for Twins-style rally-ball and all these fundamentals come from I don't know. Could they have done better in that department? Yes. But those are so minor in the grand scheme of what went wrong in 06.

IMO the difference was that the '05 team had the ability to scratch for a run and win games in that fashion. Yes, They were a good sluggling team and scored more runs that way, but it was the ability to play both ways that made them big winners. On most days, you win because you hit a HR or 2. But on days when you don't, you can scratch out a run or 2.

This year's team has, as you note, more slugging than last year's but lost the ability to win any other way. Thus the days when you don't slug - you lose.

Add in worse D and declines from the pitchers and it's an unholy trinity of failure.

Lip Man 1
09-21-2006, 12:14 PM
Just a few points.

The pitching 'woes' played a part in 2006 but just a part. And the bullpen has been far worse in 2006 then in 2005 compared to the starters.

Let's see...the Braves made the post season 14 years in a row, the Yankees now 11 (and still counting), the Cardinals, Red Sox and Astros have made multiple appearances (like four of five) in the last eight years or so.

In short....it's 'ain't' fatigue gang. It's attitude. Again I have to go back to Ozzie calling a team meeting the first week of spring training games to talk about 'effort' Ozzie isn't stupid folks, he saw something he didn't like VERY early on.

Lip

Jurr
09-21-2006, 12:16 PM
This team totally lost any semblance of small ball, and that's what killed them. They were expecting the homer all year, and when it didn't come, game over. Same as 2001-2004.

Yes, the 2005 team hit a bunch of homers, but could put together rallies to a.)take an early lead, thus taking pressure off of their pitching or b.)chip away at deficits.

If you don't agree, I give you one instance. Last night, we have runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs. Crede should've been bunting. However, he has 29 homers and a three run bomb could have been possible. Sooooo....swing away. Double play. Rally done. Game over.

This team scored runs this series solely via the homer. Ridiculous. They got slugging happy. Replace Rowand with Thome. Lose a grinder, gain a slugger.

I love Jim Thome, but I think the addition of that player helped change the mentality of this entire team.

batmanZoSo
09-21-2006, 12:18 PM
IMO the difference was that the '05 team had the ability to scratch for a run and win games in that fashion. Yes, They were a good sluggling team and scored more runs that way, but it was the ability to play both ways that made them big winners. On most days, you win because you hit a HR or 2. But on days when you don't, you can scratch out a run or 2.

This year's team has, as you note, more slugging than last year's but lost the ability to win any other way. Thus the days when you don't slug - you lose.

Add in worse D and declines from the pitchers and it's an unholy trinity of failure.

Yeah I definitely see that. Having the muscle of Thome and Dye on board, plus Konerko and Crede hitting the hell out of the ball changes you're approach a little bit. Last year's team did have more of a "lets string a few singles together and get that run" attitude because, well, they had to for the most part. They had their good share of team power, but they weren't gonna bludgeon anyone to death. But two things enabled the 05 team to do that--one, the pitching(!), two, it was a magical year. Obviously, in 06 the pitching nor the magic showed up. The latter should've been expected, and was, and Kenny accounted for that by improving the lineup.

Jurr
09-21-2006, 12:26 PM
Yeah I definitely see that. Having the muscle of Thome and Dye on board, plus Konerko and Crede hitting the hell out of the ball changes you're approach a little bit. Last year's team did have more of a "lets string a few singles together and get that run" attitude because, well, they had to for the most part. They had their good share of team power, but they weren't gonna bludgeon anyone to death. But two things enabled the 05 team to do that--one, the pitching(!), two, it was a magical year. Obviously, in 06 the pitching nor the magic showed up. The latter should've been expected, and was, and Kenny accounted for that by improving the lineup.
I agree that the pitching was not setting the tone, but there's a definite offensive link.

If you can grind out a few runs and get an early lead (something the 05 Sox excelled in), your starter can get into a groove. The other team gets anxious and swings at questionable pitching. It helps your pitcher relax because he doesn't have to make "the perfect pitch" every time.

Now, I know that Vazquez blew many a lead, but the other pitchers were getting all or nothing offensive outputs a LOT. If the game was close, the pitching would choke. Why? Because our offense was too busy swinging for the fences instead of stringing together a rally.

This is exactly why extra inning games end up going 14, 15, 16 innings. Everyone's wanting to hit a homer to end it. If your team takes on that attitude during innings 7, 8, and 9, it's over. THAT IS WHY THIS TEAM DIDN'T WIN THE CLOSE GAMES THIS YEAR.

I'm just glad that the Sox were able to get out of homer mode for one year, which just so happened to be the only year they won anything of note.

caulfield12
09-21-2006, 12:28 PM
17 blown saves this year for the pen combined. Keep Jenks, MacDougal, and Thornton and get rid of everyone else (McCarthy becomes a starter). We need three new power arms in the pen next year. That and a good leadoff hitter would solve most of the problems.


Okay, not even the Twins or Tigers have 6 power arms.

They have balance...they both got by with journeymen lefties who any team in baseball could have claimed.

Neshek is the big difference for the Twins this year and he's a 26 year old rookie. But Guerrier is not exactly a power arm and is, more or less, the equivalent of Riske.

Colon and Grilli in Detroit are not THAT great either. Or Miner.

Realistically, we need ONE more RH arm we can rely upon, but there's no team that can AFFORD or actually has 6 "power" arms. It's actually better to have changes of pace, different arm angles....we already have 3 guys who throw more or less the same velocity.

batmanZoSo
09-21-2006, 12:30 PM
This team totally lost any semblance of small ball, and that's what killed them. They were expecting the homer all year, and when it didn't come, game over. Same as 2001-2004.

Yes, the 2005 team hit a bunch of homers, but could put together rallies to a.)take an early lead, thus taking pressure off of their pitching or b.)chip away at deficits.

If you don't agree, I give you one instance. Last night, we have runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs. Crede should've been bunting. However, he has 29 homers and a three run bomb could have been possible. Sooooo....swing away. Double play. Rally done. Game over.

This team scored runs this series solely via the homer. Ridiculous. They got slugging happy. Replace Rowand with Thome. Lose a grinder, gain a slugger.

I love Jim Thome, but I think the addition of that player helped change the mentality of this entire team.

Wait, so you'd rather have the old .239 Crede rather than the current .300 30 100 version? Come on.

And Thome's addition helped change the makeup of this team--for the better. You can bet Dye's career year coincides a great deal with Thome's arrival, and I'd say the same for Crede's. Sure, I loved last year's team because they always got enough to win, but you have to realize that it was pretty much a miracle what happened and it wasn't going to happen again. We had to get better and we did, but the pitching failed.

Hangar18
09-21-2006, 12:32 PM
This team totally lost any semblance of small ball, and that's what killed them.

This team scored runs this series solely via the homer. Ridiculous. They got slugging happy. Replace Rowand with Thome. Lose a grinder, gain a slugger.

I love Jim Thome, but I think the addition of that player helped change the mentality of this entire team.



Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I remember saying this back in June myself :cool:

Paulwny
09-21-2006, 12:34 PM
I loved last year's team because they always got enough to win, but you have to realize that it was pretty much a miracle what happened and it wasn't going to happen again. .


A lot of 1 run victories= luck/magic/miracle

palehozenychicty
09-21-2006, 12:36 PM
We had to get better and we did, but the pitching failed.

All you had to say.

Jurr
09-21-2006, 12:36 PM
Wait, so you'd rather have the old .239 Crede rather than the current .300 30 100 version? Come on.

And Thome's addition helped change the makeup of this team--for the better. You can bet Dye's career year coincides a great deal with Thome's arrival, and I'd say the same for Crede's. Sure, I loved last year's team because they always got enough to win, but you have to realize that it was pretty much a miracle what happened and it wasn't going to happen again. We had to get better and we did, but the pitching failed.
I do not think that in any way this was a better "team" than the 2005 Sox. This was a better collection of talent, no doubt. The 2005 Sox embraced a concept early and carried it through the season. Yes, they got off the formula for a while, but came back to their style late in the season when it mattered.

They beat Boston in game three, Anaheim in games 2 and 5, and Houston (Games 3 and 4) with manufactured runs.
They won a ton of one run games with a consistent approach to offensive baseball. Last year I felt that if a player hit a homer, it was because he was just hitting a mistake. This year I feel that if a player got a base hit, it was because he just didn't hit "his homer" hard enough.

Hangar18
09-21-2006, 12:38 PM
Wait, so you'd rather have the old .239 Crede rather than the current .300 30 100 version? Come on.

You can bet Dye's career year coincides a great deal with Thome's arrival, and I'd say the same for Crede's. Sure, I loved last year's team because they always got enough to win, but you have to realize that it was pretty much a miracle what happened and it wasn't going to happen again. We had to get better and we did, but the pitching failed.


I think you missed his point. Hes not saying he wants the .230 hitting Crede back. I love the .300 hitting Crede, and YES, having Thome in the lineup put fear in pitchers not wanting to face Dye & Konerko. Unfortuneately, once pitchers made the adjustment to Thome, and he didnt follow suit and started grounding out to short RF and striking out, pitchers started just gearing up for Dye and Konerko. What happens afterward is the other guys start pressing, and Konerko is the king for doing that, trying too hard to make things happen now. In theory, the R/L/R combo wouldve been lethal to pitching staffs. But once he "slumped", he was just another hitter in the lineup. You can bet that Crede and Dye wont have this magical a year if Thome keeps this up.

Flight #24
09-21-2006, 12:42 PM
Yeah I definitely see that. Having the muscle of Thome and Dye on board, plus Konerko and Crede hitting the hell out of the ball changes you're approach a little bit. Last year's team did have more of a "lets string a few singles together and get that run" attitude because, well, they had to for the most part. They had their good share of team power, but they weren't gonna bludgeon anyone to death. But two things enabled the 05 team to do that--one, the pitching(!), two, it was a magical year. Obviously, in 06 the pitching nor the magic showed up. The latter should've been expected, and was, and Kenny accounted for that by improving the lineup.

The lineup was improved in some ways, but worsened in others. More power, but less fundamentals & on-base from the 8-9-1 guys. Worse ABs from even the "core" guys.

It's not that Thome should have been bunting more, it's that Pods, Iguchi, Uribe, Anderson, and even AJ didn't do any of that to set things up for the core 4.

batmanZoSo
09-21-2006, 12:53 PM
The lineup was improved in some ways, but worsened in others. More power, but less fundamentals & on-base from the 8-9-1 guys. Worse ABs from even the "core" guys.

It's not that Thome should have been bunting more, it's that Pods, Iguchi, Uribe, Anderson, and even AJ didn't do any of that to set things up for the core 4.

Yeah, Pods is definitely the goat of the 06 offensive side. But look at the runs scored on this team. The runs are there. This team has been compared to the 01-04 teams in terms of inconsistency, but remember what the bigger problem was on those teams? Danny Wright, "Bad" Garland, Todd Ritchie, to name just a few. Inconsistent or not, you can't fault a team which hits 230 homers and scores 800 or so runs just because they don't put up a consistent 5 or 6 every night. The 2000 team managed to do just that, but they are as big of an anomaly as the 05 team for their ability to get "just enough" every night. Because of bad pitching, we expected those powerful lineups to put up 6 every night to bail us out, but that's totally unreasonable to expect. It didn't happen then and it didn't happen this year.

The hitting is never gonna be there in full force every night, but good pitching is (supposed to be at least) much more reliable. The 06 and in kind the 01-04 offensive failings I certainly acknowledge, but they're only magnified by the fact that they had poor pitching to back them up. You win in baseball with good pitching, not mediocre pitching. I've become a freakin' broken record here.

oddlot
09-21-2006, 12:54 PM
It seems as if the World Championship hardware gave the Sox a Lake Wobegon aura this season ("...everyone is above average...").

Oh if but it were true, they would be going after their 140th win tonight!

I still think that sub-par years by the staff ace and the leadoff hitter were the root causes of (likely) missing the playoffs. It's tough to be consistently weak in these two areas and be a strong contender.

Oops- gotta go. I'm late to do a brain surgery.

Oddlot

fquaye149
09-21-2006, 01:11 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I remember saying this back in June myself :cool:

And you were as misguided then as you are now.

But yeah, let's try to reduce our woes to some intangible idea like "more runs created is bad"

Thank God you're back Hangar...b/t this crap and the Pods needs glasses thread, I don't know what we did without you.

fquaye149
09-21-2006, 01:17 PM
Yeah, Pods is definitely the goat of the 06 offensive side. But look at the runs scored on this team. The runs are there. This team has been compared to the 01-04 teams in terms of inconsistency, but remember what the bigger problem was on those teams? Danny Wright, "Bad" Garland, Todd Ritchie, to name just a few. Inconsistent or not, you can't fault a team which hits 230 homers and scores 800 or so runs just because they don't put up a consistent 5 or 6 every night. The 2000 team managed to do just that, but they are as big of an anomaly as the 05 team for their ability to get "just enough" every night. Because of bad pitching, we expected those powerful lineups to put up 6 every night to bail us out, but that's totally unreasonable to expect. It didn't happen then and it didn't happen this year.

The hitting is never gonna be there in full force every night, but good pitching is (supposed to be at least) much more reliable. The 06 and in kind the 01-04 offensive failings I certainly acknowledge, but they're only magnified by the fact that they had poor pitching to back them up. You win in baseball with good pitching, not mediocre pitching. I've become a freakin' broken record here.

Exactly--everyone champs at the bit to bring up Loaiza's 1-0 losses to Detroit, but there were two of those. How many games did we lose when we scored 7 runs and our 5th starters gave up 8? How many games did Koch blow when we had a lead or a tie going into the 9th?

And this year, we may have had a few corpseball games, and a FEW occasions where we didn't move runners over, but the bottom line is I can think of at least 15 more losses this year that the offense scored plenty of runs and the pitching staff just completely let us down. 15 more than last year that is. And there's that 15 losses that seperates us from playoffs.

All you have to do is look at the last month of baseball, and you'll see that scoring runs is not our biggest problem. It's defense and pitching. Put defense on Ozzie for Mackowiack, and chalk pitching up to whatever you want to chalk it up to (as long as it's not that stupid stupid stupid theory that pitchers get lazy because Thome's a good hitter)...but the fact is it's done, and all your "I told you so's" are just self-aggrandizing fact-twisting.

What's the point? Congrats--you told us so. You sure did. I also remember the same posters who "told us so" this season "telling us so" at the beginning of last season. And no matter what KW does this offseason they're going to "tell us so" next season.

Wonderful, thanks so much Mariotti.

Fungo
09-21-2006, 01:24 PM
Hey, im used to it brother. I once mentioned that Jim Thome should be dropped from the #3 hole because he just isnt the same player right now (esp with the way Dye has been playing) and Im told I was roundly mocked.
Dye is batting 3rd now. The 06 Bullpen has been spectacularly bad this year.And how has that moved worked out?

Hangar18
09-21-2006, 01:28 PM
Thank God you're back Hangar...b/t this crap and the Pods needs glasses thread, I don't know what we did without you.


Cmon man, you know better than that. The bullpen is just as much to blame, but combine that with a team thats taken a step backward regarding manufacturing runs and ....well you have the 2006 White Sox. As for Pods, I cannot figure out for the life of me, how the heck he got so clueless out there in one season. Heck, I remember when we traded for him, I was like why are we trading for a guy who hits .250?

The Lee bashers told us it was because Carlos Lee was a "butcher" in LF and Pods' "defense" was superior to Lee. Well, Im glad Pods got us a WS title (please, no "hangar says Pods real reason for 05 WS), but I cant believe a guy can get that bad in one offseason. Forgetting how to bunt? :angry:

Hangar18
09-21-2006, 01:33 PM
And how has that moved worked out?

Didnt stop the SOX from making the move did it? Didnt get countless threads started on the message boards heralding the move. Jermaine Dye is only one guy. Fact is, right now I feel better with Dye batting and Gooch/Pods on base than with Thome batting. Its arguable what might have been had they made this move back in June or even July

Fungo
09-21-2006, 01:54 PM
Didnt stop the SOX from making the move did it? Didnt get countless threads started on the message boards heralding the move. Jermaine Dye is only one guy. Fact is, right now I feel better with Dye batting and Gooch/Pods on base than with Thome batting. Its arguable what might have been had they made this move back in June or even JulyThe move was made because Thome got hurt, not just for a lineup shuffle. Who knows what they would have done had he not. It was the smart thing to do to create the righty, lefty, righty in the lineup. Dye was moved to the 3 hole and did well there for about the first week. Since then he has been less than average. When Thome was on fire in the first half, people may have suggested the move (righty, lefty, righty), but why mess with it when it was working? Thome hasn't been driving in the runs since the ASB.

fquaye149
09-21-2006, 02:05 PM
Cmon man, you know better than that. The bullpen is just as much to blame, but combine that with a team thats taken a step backward regarding manufacturing runs and ....well you have the 2006 White Sox. As for Pods, I cannot figure out for the life of me, how the heck he got so clueless out there in one season. Heck, I remember when we traded for him, I was like why are we trading for a guy who hits .250?

The Lee bashers told us it was because Carlos Lee was a "butcher" in LF and Pods' "defense" was superior to Lee. Well, Im glad Pods got us a WS title (please, no "hangar says Pods real reason for 05 WS), but I cant believe a guy can get that bad in one offseason. Forgetting how to bunt? :angry:

a.) WHAT? You mean the team that's scored many more runs but can't manufacture runs hurts us? Maybe in very specific anecdotal situations, but not overall. Perhaps our inability to bunt has cost us games (and it has), but our renewed ability to actually DRIVE IN RUNS FROM FIRST BASE has likely won us just as many. Remember: SCORING MORE RUNS IS A GOOD THING

b.) Lee has nothing to do with the difference b/t 2006 and 2005. I don't know what the **** you're talking about? Pods has sucked this year. Perfect. You want to really assess the problem with this team?

1.) No production in the leadoff spot

2.) A decline in defense and fundamentals

3.) Horrible starting pitching

4.) Horrible middle relief

5.) Horrible starting pitching

6.) Horrible middle relief

7.) Inconsistent setup and closing relief, periodically

Notice how I didn't list "not enough heart" or "Thome was hitting in the wrong spot in the order"

Because that's crap.

And guess what my list means? It means nothing. It means I was able to list the obvious things wrong with the team this season. Whoopdeedoo. Anyone who watched some White Sox baseball this year should be able to do the same.

So you guessed some of this garbage at the beginning of the year? Whoop-dee-doo. What does that mean? How would you have prevented it? How do you prevent nearly every one of our starting pitchers from laying eggs for long stretches at some part of the season? How do you keep Buehrle, Garcia, and Vazquez from sucking ass the entire season? How do you magically procure effective bullpen arms? How do you replace Podsednik without doing serious damage to payroll?

YOU DON'T. It was a ****ty season and it's too bad we couldn't make another run...but this is silly .I hate to use a term like Heinie bird, especially since Hawk coined it, but come on. You're basically being a bunch or Mariottis and it's ****ing ridiculous.

SoxFanPrope
09-21-2006, 02:51 PM
a.) WHAT? You mean the team that's scored many more runs but can't manufacture runs hurts us? Maybe in very specific anecdotal situations, but not overall. Perhaps our inability to bunt has cost us games (and it has), but our renewed ability to actually DRIVE IN RUNS FROM FIRST BASE has likely won us just as many. Remember: SCORING MORE RUNS IS A GOOD THING

b.) Lee has nothing to do with the difference b/t 2006 and 2005. I don't know what the **** you're talking about? Pods has sucked this year. Perfect. You want to really assess the problem with this team?

1.) No production in the leadoff spot

2.) A decline in defense and fundamentals

3.) Horrible starting pitching

4.) Horrible middle relief

5.) Horrible starting pitching

6.) Horrible middle relief

7.) Inconsistent setup and closing relief, periodically

Notice how I didn't list "not enough heart" or "Thome was hitting in the wrong spot in the order"

Because that's crap.

And guess what my list means? It means nothing. It means I was able to list the obvious things wrong with the team this season. Whoopdeedoo. Anyone who watched some White Sox baseball this year should be able to do the same.

So you guessed some of this garbage at the beginning of the year? Whoop-dee-doo. What does that mean? How would you have prevented it? How do you prevent nearly every one of our starting pitchers from laying eggs for long stretches at some part of the season? How do you keep Buehrle, Garcia, and Vazquez from sucking ass the entire season? How do you magically procure effective bullpen arms? How do you replace Podsednik without doing serious damage to payroll?

YOU DON'T. It was a ****ty season and it's too bad we couldn't make another run...but this is silly .I hate to use a term like Heinie bird, especially since Hawk coined it, but come on. You're basically being a bunch or Mariottis and it's ****ing ridiculous.
:thumbsup: :worship:

cheezheadsoxfan
09-21-2006, 02:59 PM
a.) WHAT? You mean the team that's scored many more runs but can't manufacture runs hurts us? Maybe in very specific anecdotal situations, but not overall. Perhaps our inability to bunt has cost us games (and it has), but our renewed ability to actually DRIVE IN RUNS FROM FIRST BASE has likely won us just as many. Remember: SCORING MORE RUNS IS A GOOD THING

b.) Lee has nothing to do with the difference b/t 2006 and 2005. I don't know what the **** you're talking about? Pods has sucked this year. Perfect. You want to really assess the problem with this team?

1.) No production in the leadoff spot

2.) A decline in defense and fundamentals

3.) Horrible starting pitching

4.) Horrible middle relief

5.) Horrible starting pitching

6.) Horrible middle relief

7.) Inconsistent setup and closing relief, periodically

Notice how I didn't list "not enough heart" or "Thome was hitting in the wrong spot in the order"

Because that's crap.

And guess what my list means? It means nothing. It means I was able to list the obvious things wrong with the team this season. Whoopdeedoo. Anyone who watched some White Sox baseball this year should be able to do the same.

So you guessed some of this garbage at the beginning of the year? Whoop-dee-doo. What does that mean? How would you have prevented it? How do you prevent nearly every one of our starting pitchers from laying eggs for long stretches at some part of the season? How do you keep Buehrle, Garcia, and Vazquez from sucking ass the entire season? How do you magically procure effective bullpen arms? How do you replace Podsednik without doing serious damage to payroll?

YOU DON'T. It was a ****ty season and it's too bad we couldn't make another run...but this is silly .I hate to use a term like Heinie bird, especially since Hawk coined it, but come on. You're basically being a bunch or Mariottis and it's ****ing ridiculous.

What he said! We're all dissapointed, sad and angry, but yes, a lot people on these boards could be ghostwriters for Jay the Joke.

kobo
09-21-2006, 04:00 PM
a.) WHAT? You mean the team that's scored many more runs but can't manufacture runs hurts us? Maybe in very specific anecdotal situations, but not overall. Perhaps our inability to bunt has cost us games (and it has), but our renewed ability to actually DRIVE IN RUNS FROM FIRST BASE has likely won us just as many. Remember: SCORING MORE RUNS IS A GOOD THING

b.) Lee has nothing to do with the difference b/t 2006 and 2005. I don't know what the **** you're talking about? Pods has sucked this year. Perfect. You want to really assess the problem with this team?

1.) No production in the leadoff spot

2.) A decline in defense and fundamentals

3.) Horrible starting pitching

4.) Horrible middle relief

5.) Horrible starting pitching

6.) Horrible middle relief

7.) Inconsistent setup and closing relief, periodically

Notice how I didn't list "not enough heart" or "Thome was hitting in the wrong spot in the order"

Because that's crap.

And guess what my list means? It means nothing. It means I was able to list the obvious things wrong with the team this season. Whoopdeedoo. Anyone who watched some White Sox baseball this year should be able to do the same.

So you guessed some of this garbage at the beginning of the year? Whoop-dee-doo. What does that mean? How would you have prevented it? How do you prevent nearly every one of our starting pitchers from laying eggs for long stretches at some part of the season? How do you keep Buehrle, Garcia, and Vazquez from sucking ass the entire season? How do you magically procure effective bullpen arms? How do you replace Podsednik without doing serious damage to payroll?

YOU DON'T. It was a ****ty season and it's too bad we couldn't make another run...but this is silly .I hate to use a term like Heinie bird, especially since Hawk coined it, but come on. You're basically being a bunch or Mariottis and it's ****ing ridiculous.
Wait a second, you just used logic to support your opinion. How dare you!!

JB98
09-21-2006, 04:09 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I remember saying this back in June myself :cool:

Sorry, Hangar. You were wrong then, and you're still wrong now.

JB98
09-21-2006, 04:11 PM
The lineup was improved in some ways, but worsened in others. More power, but less fundamentals & on-base from the 8-9-1 guys. Worse ABs from even the "core" guys.

It's not that Thome should have been bunting more, it's that Pods, Iguchi, Uribe, Anderson, and even AJ didn't do any of that to set things up for the core 4.

Your second paragraph is what seems to be lost on a lot of people here. The guys on this club who are capable of playing small ball didn't play small ball this year. That must be Thome's fault.

kitekrazy
09-21-2006, 06:26 PM
This team should be in the playoffs. This team should have played playoff-caliber baseball pretty much all year long, allowing for a slump that happens to every team at some point in the season.

This team isn't going to be in the playoffs, unless the Twins and Tigers team members all come down with food poisoning that lasts two weeks. Spinach, send them some spinach!

This team hasn't played playoff-caliber baseball since the ASB. They had their slump, fine, but then when the started to come out of it, in late July, it was as if they looked around, looked at the effort they'd have to make, and just couldn't -- or wouldn't -- pull it together to make that effort! That, I think, is what has gotten so many fans so upset.

The Sox were 36 games over .500 last year. They're now 18 over with 10 left to play. It doesn't matter how the Tigers or Twins have played, and maybe they both would have beat out the Sox no matter what -- but to reduce a team winning percentage by that much, with an improved team, is inexcusable to me and probably to an awful lot of other fans.

And I hope and pray that it's inexcusable to Kenny Williams.

But even as poorly as they played it's taken the middle of the month to know it's over. The Tigers are having a magical season and there's nothing you can do about that. The Twins always play solid fundamental baseball so they are always a threat.

TaylorStSox
09-21-2006, 08:00 PM
I might be wrong but I think the pitchers for Atlanta made the playoffs for about 14 years in a row. So it can be done. I am not mad but I am tired of hearing the excuse that the pitchers played in October. That and the loss of Rowand caused the demise. The Sox are still 17 games over .500, there was no collaspe just unmet expectations. Other teams played better it happens.



Let me preface this comment by saying that it applies to the whole team, not just the pitching. Last year, this team played in more tight games than any of those Yankee or Braves teams. Our offense was horrible last year. They did enough to allow our pitchers to beat teams. This team was mentally and physically tired, this year, because of that. It was blatantly obvious the entire year. I thought the pitching would pull through again, but they just didn't have it in them. I'm neither angry, nor ashamed, of this team or my affiliation with this franchise.

fquaye149
09-21-2006, 08:56 PM
Let me preface this comment by saying that it applies to the whole team, not just the pitching. Last year, this team played in more tight games than any of those Yankee or Braves teams. Our offense was horrible last year. They did enough to allow our pitchers to beat teams. This team was mentally and physically tired, this year, because of that. It was blatantly obvious the entire year. I thought the pitching would pull through again, but they just didn't have it in them. I'm neither angry, nor ashamed, of this team or my affiliation with this franchise.

Well put. This team played their ass off last year, and that takes its toll. They were on the ropes all last season and reached down DEEP, REAL DEEP, to pull out the first WS Chicago baseball had seen in 88 years. I'm proud to be a White Sox fan despite our poor play this season. I will wear my hat with pride.

HotelWhiteSox
09-21-2006, 10:40 PM
That is just an excuse! There are plenty of other teams that had their players there and they are now fine.

But they also weren't pitching complete games in November (in addition to over 200 innings). Some WBC stats. Some of the leaders in IP: Bartolo Colon (.64 ERA ) had multiple DL stints and only made 10 starts and went 1-5 5 ERA, Jae Seo (.64 ERA) was on the DL earlier and is 3-10 with a ERA in the high 4s, Chan Ho Park (0 ERA) is on the DL and is 7-7, Jake Peavy (3.38 ERA) is 9-14 with an ERA in the 4's when his career winning % is over .500 and a career ERA in the 3's, Joel Pineiro (2.08 ERA) who has a career winning % slightly over .500 and ERA in the 4s is 8-12 with a ERA in the 6's. We know about Freddy and Javy

You can't really give a reason for sucking though. The bullpen had most of the playoffs off and a normal spring. I think you can put some blame on the WBC though. If you follow spring training, it's normal for a pitcher to start off crappy, but also take it easy, get some throws in, or work on a new pitch. Instead, the WBC had them giving their all right from the start. Prep is huge in this game and this completely threw it off. Freddy was quoted after the event that he'd never do it again. And here we were worried about Mark and not getting on team USA...if he would have :o:

HotelWhiteSox
09-21-2006, 10:54 PM
Lose a grinder, gain a slugger.

I love Jim Thome, but I think the addition of that player helped change the mentality of this entire team.

I have nothing against the people that love Aaron, but I think we are forgetting that last year, especially towards the end and in the postseason, Aaron was an automatic out. His good offensive year was in 04. If it wasn't for his defense last year, he probably would've been benched or sent down to the minors. Actually, if Anderson would have started more regularly, we might have had an upgrade on Aaron (do in the long run).

Essentially, Thome replaced Everett/Thomas. Kind of similar, though Everett was more of a smallball power hitter (if that makes sense), who'd always talk about how he didn't care about the HR, he wanted the hit, how he shortened up his swing on 2 strikes, but he also slumped in the 2nd half, so that might be a moot point. Thome replacing Everett is also big on chemistry type points if you believe in that stuff.

I agree though that it seems like there was more of a home run reliant offense without as much manufacturing runs. More runs doesn't really tell you much, since it depends on how they are spread out (like 01-04 and the 10 run outbursts one night and 1 hit the next). Runs given up also factors in if you are using it for W-L (yes and we all know most of the pitching sucked), but yeah, Pods had a bad year and that took away a lot of opportunity for small ball. Even early in the year when he was getting on base, he'd get caught stealing what seemed to be more often than not. Then you have guys forgetting how to bunt, either not taking pitches or turning a 3-0 count into an out, etc. I guess some of this can be put on Ozzie too, but he needs the players to play that style, and this year seemed like live and die by the HR

slavko
09-21-2006, 11:04 PM
A lot of 1 run victories= luck/magic/miracle

A lot of one run victories. One word. Bullpen.

Hangar18
09-22-2006, 10:00 AM
a.) WHAT? You mean the team that's scored many more runs but can't manufacture runs hurts us? Maybe in very specific anecdotal situations, but not overall. Perhaps our inability to bunt has cost us games (and it has), but our renewed ability to actually DRIVE IN RUNS FROM FIRST BASE has likely won us just as many. Remember: SCORING MORE RUNS IS A GOOD THING

b.) Lee has nothing to do with the difference b/t 2006 and 2005. I don't know what the **** you're talking about? Pods has sucked this year. Perfect. You want to really assess the problem with this team?

1.) No production in the leadoff spot

2.) A decline in defense and fundamentals

3.) Horrible starting pitching

4.) Horrible middle relief

5.) Horrible starting pitching

6.) Horrible middle relief

7.) Inconsistent setup and closing relief, periodically

Notice how I didn't list "not enough heart" or "Thome was hitting in the wrong spot in the order"

Because that's crap.

And guess what my list means? It means nothing. It means I was able to list the obvious things wrong with the team this season. Whoopdeedoo. Anyone who watched some White Sox baseball this year should be able to do the same.

So you guessed some of this garbage at the beginning of the year? Whoop-dee-doo. What does that mean? How would you have prevented it? How do you prevent nearly every one of our starting pitchers from laying eggs for long stretches at some part of the season? How do you keep Buehrle, Garcia, and Vazquez from sucking ass the entire season? How do you magically procure effective bullpen arms? How do you replace Podsednik without doing serious damage to payroll?

YOU DON'T. It was a ****ty season and it's too bad we couldn't make another run...but this is silly .I hate to use a term like Heinie bird, especially since Hawk coined it, but come on. You're basically being a bunch or Mariottis and it's ****ing ridiculous.

Wow man. How in the world do I respond to a wild post like this?
I love your quote "Scoring More Runs is a Good Thing". Let me rephrase that for you. SCORING MORE RUNS IS A GOOD THING WHEN YOU CAN SCORE THEM ANYTIME YOU WANT. Lot of good that did us last nite huh? we lost 9-0 if you didnt see the boxscore.
this gets better.
"Perhaps our Inability to bunt has cost us games"
Isnt Bunting part of the Manufacturing Runs Process? Something I just said we took a step backward with this season?

I notice how you gave us a laundry list of 7 items on whats "really" wrong wtih the SOX this year. Guess What? The Detroit Tigers have experienced everyone of those same 7 items at some point this season, most of it right now. But thats not stopping the Tigers from playing baseball in October is it?

Yeah, I noticed how you didnt note "Not Enough Heart". Thats Crap.
This team didnt have heart enough to win this division. The SOX are way better on paper (on paper I said) than the Minnesota Twins. But guess which team is playing with "enough heart" right now? Thats right. The Twins. This team should be 8 games up in 1st place right now ..........
AJ just made a comment regarding the teams "heart", you apparently missed it. I can keep going here ............ but I think you get the idea.
What would I have done? thats for another thread (there are a few out there now, feel free to rip on the posters for suggesting their ideas) but I will say this.

WHATEVER I WOULD HAVE DONE, I WOULDVE DONE SOONER
instead of waiting way late into the season to start making some changes,
Dye in the #3 hole included

Hangar18
09-22-2006, 10:02 AM
I agree though that it seems like there was more of a home run reliant offense without as much manufacturing runs. More runs doesn't really tell you much,
....................... and this year seemed like live and die by the HR

Tell Fquaye that ............

Hangar18
09-22-2006, 10:08 AM
a.)

It was a ****ty season and it's too bad we couldn't make another run...but this is silly .I hate to use a term like Heinie bird, especially since Hawk coined it, but come on. You're basically being a bunch or Mariottis and it's ****ing ridiculous.


This wasnt a ****ty season. SOX started out good, but Ozzies slow-to-react managerial style over 6 months turned this into a ****ty season. Konerko & AJ even talked about this just last nite. Why dont you go to the game and call them out, because they're obviously wrong too.

fquaye149
09-22-2006, 10:08 AM
Tell Fquaye that ............

oh believe me, being around these boards, I've heard it ad nauseum

and i do mean nauseum

fquaye149
09-22-2006, 10:10 AM
This wasnt a ****ty season. SOX started out good, but Ozzies slow-to-react managerial style over 6 months turned this into a ****ty season. Konerko & AJ even talked about this just last nite. Why dont you go to the game and call them out, because they're obviously wrong too.

No. This was a ****ty season. Sorry. Are we in the playoffs? It was a ****ty season.

I'll tell Konerko and AJ to their face if I see them: you had a ****ty season. Not you two specifically but your baseball team, the Chicago White Sox.

And now it's time to move on.

Hangar18
09-22-2006, 10:13 AM
No. This was a ****ty season. Sorry. Are we in the playoffs? It was a ****ty season.

I'll tell Konerko and AJ to their face if I see them: you had a ****ty season. Not you two specifically but your baseball team, the Chicago White Sox.

And now it's time to move on.


Look man, we'll agree to disagree, but funny thing is, were not really disagreeing. YES, on the whole, im not happy with the season, and I consider this a Crappy season. But it didnt magically turn into this. This nonsense started in June and just slowly got worse.

fquaye149
09-22-2006, 10:16 AM
Wow man. How in the world do I respond to a wild post like this?
I love your quote "Scoring More Runs is a Good Thing". Let me rephrase that for you. SCORING MORE RUNS IS A GOOD THING WHEN YOU CAN SCORE THEM ANYTIME YOU WANT. Lot of good that did us last nite huh? we lost 9-0 if you didnt see the boxscore.
this gets better.
"Perhaps our Inability to bunt has cost us games"
Isnt Bunting part of the Manufacturing Runs Process? Something I just said we took a step backward with this season?
The 2005 team was never shut out.

The 2005 team never had trouble scoring runs.

The 2005 team never let down great starting pitching efforts by scoring few runs.

You guys remember a time period callled August-September of 2005? Apparently not, in your refusal to admit that the offense was not what was wrong with this team.

But go on making you're "rational" posts like "Podsednik needs glasses" and I'll go on making my "wild" posts that include facts and rational thought.


I notice how you gave us a laundry list of 7 items on whats "really" wrong wtih the SOX this year. Guess What? The Detroit Tigers have experienced everyone of those same 7 items at some point this season, most of it right now. But thats not stopping the Tigers from playing baseball in October is it?



BZZT! WRONG! The detroit tigers didn't experience the two things that were so brutal for us I listed them twice: consistently bad starting pitching and consistently bad middle relief.

So in fact they experienced 3 of the 7 items, and those items are the ones that didn't have to do with bad pitching.

A smart baseball fan would kind of see something being suggested by that. Some other fans might still continue harping on a lack of smallball.


Yeah, I noticed how you didnt note "Not Enough Heart". Thats Crap.
This team didnt have heart enough to win this division. The SOX are way better on paper (on paper I said) than the Minnesota Twins. But guess which team is playing with "enough heart" right now? Thats right. The Twins. This team should be 8 games up in 1st place right now ..........
AJ just made a comment regarding the teams "heart", you apparently missed it. I can keep going here ............ but I think you get the idea.
What would I have done? thats for another thread (there are a few out there now, feel free to rip on the posters for suggesting their ideas) but I will say this.

You're insane. On paper, when this season is all said and done, the Sox are much worse than the Twins. Their team ERA will probably be more than a full point higher. Question the heart of the pitching staff if you want. But there's more constructive ways to approach bad pitching than accusing them all of being gutless cowards.



WHATEVER I WOULD HAVE DONE, I WOULDVE DONE SOONER
instead of waiting way late into the season to start making some changes,
Dye in the #3 hole included

So in summary, having a 900+ OPS, 40 hr guy in the 3 spot for the majority of the season is one of the KEY problems of this team and one of the main reasons we didn't make the playoffs.
Ok.

Goddamn it's good to have you back Hangar.

Jerko
09-22-2006, 10:16 AM
No. This was a ****ty season. Sorry. Are we in the playoffs? It was a ****ty season.

I'll tell Konerko and AJ to their face if I see them: you had a ****ty season. Not you two specifically but your baseball team, the Chicago White Sox.

And now it's time to move on.

Don't even bother fyuaye. If you did say something to Konerko, all he will say is "well, it's not a matter of playing with extra heart, you really don't understand that you can't do that in this sport, and anyway, it's not like anybody died or anything, and it's too cold out" or some gem like that. These people forget that we PAY to see this stuff, and I don't see anybody offering any refunds every time 6 benchwarmers are in the lineup or they get shut out by the freakin Mariners. :angry:

batmanZoSo
09-22-2006, 10:19 AM
Wow man. How in the world do I respond to a wild post like this?
I love your quote "Scoring More Runs is a Good Thing". Let me rephrase that for you. SCORING MORE RUNS IS A GOOD THING WHEN YOU CAN SCORE THEM ANYTIME YOU WANT. Lot of good that did us last nite huh? we lost 9-0 if you didnt see the boxscore.
this gets better.
"Perhaps our Inability to bunt has cost us games"
Isnt Bunting part of the Manufacturing Runs Process? Something I just said we took a step backward with this season?

I notice how you gave us a laundry list of 7 items on whats "really" wrong wtih the SOX this year. Guess What? The Detroit Tigers have experienced everyone of those same 7 items at some point this season, most of it right now. But thats not stopping the Tigers from playing baseball in October is it?

Yeah, I noticed how you didnt note "Not Enough Heart". Thats Crap.
This team didnt have heart enough to win this division. The SOX are way better on paper (on paper I said) than the Minnesota Twins. But guess which team is playing with "enough heart" right now? Thats right. The Twins. This team should be 8 games up in 1st place right now ..........
AJ just made a comment regarding the teams "heart", you apparently missed it. I can keep going here ............ but I think you get the idea.
What would I have done? thats for another thread (there are a few out there now, feel free to rip on the posters for suggesting their ideas) but I will say this.

WHATEVER I WOULD HAVE DONE, I WOULDVE DONE SOONER
instead of waiting way late into the season to start making some changes,
Dye in the #3 hole included

Dye in the 3 hole, come on. You think minor things like that are the reason we blew it? It's not even worth discussing. Furthermore, you think a manager should be held to the fire because of not making those minor tweaks that miraculously spark the team and pull a rabbit out of his hat? Ozzie didn't have the horses this year, period. A great, great manager might have somehow gotten a division winner out of this bunch, but that's a standard to which no manager should be held. It's akin to trading Thome because he didn't break Maris' record. Of course Ozzie made mistakes, he always had and always will. He's not a great x's and o's kind of manager--not bad but not great. His strengths lie in other areas. You noticed how tense and uptight the team was down the stretch and in the playoffs in 05, right?

fquaye149
09-22-2006, 10:21 AM
Dye in the 3 hole, come on. You think minor things like that are the reason we blew it? It's not even worth discussing. Furthermore, you think a manager should be held to the fire because of not making those minor tweaks that miraculously spark the team and pull a rabbit out of his hat? Ozzie didn't have the horses this year, period. A great, great manager might have somehow gotten a division winner out of this bunch, but that's a standard to which no manager should be held. It's akin to trading Thome because he didn't break Maris' record. Of course Ozzie made mistakes, he always had and always will. He's not a great x's and o's kind of manager--not bad but not great. His strengths lie in other areas. You noticed how tense and uptight the team was down the stretch and in the playoffs in 05, right?

Exactly--if Ozzie moves Thome out of the three hole and all of a sudden either he or Dye go into a slump it's Ozzie's fault for "fixing it when it ain't broke."

But then again, Hangar always works with the benefit of hindsight...and that's a good thing, since we've seen what happens when he doesn't have all the facts before he tells us what we should have done (i.e. "GET RID OF JERMAINE DYE KW IS CHEAP JR SELL JERRY SELL")

Hangar18
09-22-2006, 10:31 AM
The 2005 team was never shut out.

The 2005 team never had trouble scoring runs.

The 2005 team never let down great starting pitching efforts by scoring few runs.

You guys remember a time period callled August-September of 2005? Apparently not, in your refusal to admit that the offense was not what was wrong with this team.

But go on making you're "rational" posts like "Podsednik needs glasses" and I'll go on making my "wild" posts that include facts and rational thought.



BZZT! WRONG! The detroit tigers didn't experience the two things that were so brutal for us I listed them twice: consistently bad starting pitching and consistently bad middle relief.

So in fact they experienced 3 of the 7 items, and those items are the ones that didn't have to do with bad pitching.

A smart baseball fan would kind of see something being suggested by that. Some other fans might still continue harping on a lack of smallball.



You're insane. On paper, when this season is all said and done, the Sox are much worse than the Twins. Their team ERA will probably be more than a full point higher. Question the heart of the pitching staff if you want. But there's more constructive ways to approach bad pitching than accusing them all of being gutless cowards.



So in summary, having a 900+ OPS, 40 hr guy in the 3 spot for the majority of the season is one of the KEY problems of this team and one of the main reasons we didn't make the playoffs.
Ok.

Goddamn it's good to have you back Hangar.


Funny, you keep making my same points ......... we can go on and on about heart and hustle, I didnt see it with this team compared to last year, so again, we'll go on and on. But in regards to your Dye statement. Heck yes, that wouldve been one of the 1st moves I wouldve made, seeing a few rallies ending with Thome, and seeing just how electric Dye was becoming, thats a no-brainer. We make that move sooner, I think this team wins a couple extra games......easily.
Your 3 points about the 2005 team. I AGREE.

The Tigers have experienced those same 7 points this season, of course to a differing degree. Your telling me how vaunted the Tiger pitching staff is, but if our team is "SCORING MORE RUNS" doesnt that offset our pitching staffs ERA being a bit higher? For sure we should be in 1st place then?

Point here, is the SOX were slower to fix some of the problems they could easily have fixed. Like using a real CenterFielder a majority of the games. Like dropping your leadoff hitter down in the lineup if its clear he isnt hitting for starters

batmanZoSo
09-22-2006, 10:33 AM
You're insane. On paper, when this season is all said and done, the Sox are much worse than the Twins. Their team ERA will probably be more than a full point higher. Question the heart of the pitching staff if you want. But there's more constructive ways to approach bad pitching than accusing them all of being gutless cowards.




That's the gospel right there. And the same can, should, and will be said about Detroit. Those guys didn't out-heart us, they outpitched us. Case closed, have fun in October.

Hangar18
09-22-2006, 10:41 AM
Dye in the 3 hole, come on. You think minor things like that are the reason we blew it? It's not even worth discussing. Furthermore, you think a manager should be held to the fire because of not making those minor tweaks that miraculously spark the team and pull a rabbit out of his hat? Ozzie didn't have the horses this year, period. A great, great manager might have somehow gotten a division winner out of this bunch, but that's a standard to which no manager should be held. It's akin to trading Thome because he didn't break Maris' record. Of course Ozzie made mistakes, he always had and always will. He's not a great x's and o's kind of manager--not bad but not great. His strengths lie in other areas. You noticed how tense and uptight the team was down the stretch and in the playoffs in 05, right?


Yes, minor things like that make a big difference if you react to them at the right time. Managers are graded on that kind of thing you know ...... Ozzie will catch some heat for having a pretty good team, and not getting anywhere with them, watch. So you wouldve just left the team as it was and Crossed Your Fingers and hoped for the best?

Well, Ozzie used your If-it-aint-broke-dont-tweak-it gameplan this year. And were in 3rd place

Your right about Ozzies strength in other areas and I will agree, that was one of the factors that helped the SOX down the stretch in 05 and in the playoffs.

But that was last year. This isnt the same team.

Hangar18
09-22-2006, 11:03 AM
Goddamn it's good to have you back Hangar.


OH, thanks man. appreciate it. :O)

Hangar18
09-22-2006, 11:04 AM
That's the gospel right there. And the same can, should, and will be said about Detroit. Those guys didn't out-heart us, they outpitched us. Case closed, have fun in October.


What about the Twins?

batmanZoSo
09-22-2006, 11:08 AM
Ozzie will catch some heat for having a pretty good team, and not getting anywhere with them, watch.


That alone I agree with. It goes to the old cliche that you can't fire all the players. Now, Ozzie's not going to be fired, but when a team seemingly underachieves a great deal not on par with their talent level, someone has to be accountable eventually. But...


that was last year. This isnt the same team.

My sentiments exactly. I'd like to see what any manager could do with a below average pitching staff, no matter what ingenious or obvious tweaks he makes to the lineup or magical bullpen management or stirring locker rooom speeches or voodoo spells he casts. The answer is not much.

batmanZoSo
09-22-2006, 11:09 AM
What about the Twins?

My post reffered to both superior teams.

fquaye149
09-22-2006, 12:41 PM
Funny, you keep making my same points ......... we can go on and on about heart and hustle, I didnt see it with this team compared to last year, so again, we'll go on and on. But in regards to your Dye statement. Heck yes, that wouldve been one of the 1st moves I wouldve made, seeing a few rallies ending with Thome, and seeing just how electric Dye was becoming, thats a no-brainer. We make that move sooner, I think this team wins a couple extra games......easily.
Your 3 points about the 2005 team. I AGREE.

The Tigers have experienced those same 7 points this season, of course to a differing degree. Your telling me how vaunted the Tiger pitching staff is, but if our team is "SCORING MORE RUNS" doesnt that offset our pitching staffs ERA being a bit higher? For sure we should be in 1st place then?

Point here, is the SOX were slower to fix some of the problems they could easily have fixed. Like using a real CenterFielder a majority of the games. Like dropping your leadoff hitter down in the lineup if its clear he isnt hitting for starters

No I don't keep making your same points.

LISTEN: The Tigers had a few let downs in pitching, but for the most part pitched exceptionally.

Conversely, We had a few bright spots in pitching (but even our two best pitchers had long spells of crap, Garland at the beginning, Contreras towards the end) but for the most part pitched like a bunch of little leaguers.

Is that clear? Did we watch the same season?

fquaye149
09-22-2006, 01:18 PM
That alone I agree with. It goes to the old cliche that you can't fire all the players. Now, Ozzie's not going to be fired, but when a team seemingly underachieves a great deal not on par with their talent level, someone has to be accountable eventually. But...



My sentiments exactly. I'd like to see what any manager could do with a below average pitching staff, no matter what ingenious or obvious tweaks he makes to the lineup or magical bullpen management or stirring locker rooom speeches or voodoo spells he casts. The answer is not much.

Ozzie has his culpability, make no mistake, but in the end it was starting pitching spitting the bit and a lack of bullpen depth that cost us the season. There wasn't a lot Ozzie could do about that.

Of course he ought to be held responsible for:

Mackowiack in center
Bullpen decisions
Calling out Tracey
The Mariotti incident
Some of Cora's questionable decisions

but the fact is, those are so very secondary (with the exception of Mackowiack and bullpen decisions) that they hardly bear mentioning compared to the big issue of starting pitchers pitching awfully and a shortage of bullpen talent.

Hangar18
09-22-2006, 02:48 PM
No I don't keep making your same points.

LISTEN: The Tigers had a few let downs in pitching, but for the most part pitched exceptionally.

Conversely, We had a few bright spots in pitching (but even our two best pitchers had long spells of crap, Garland at the beginning, Contreras towards the end) but for the most part pitched like a bunch of little leaguers.

Is that clear? Did we watch the same season?

hey man, we were watching the same season. We are in more agreement than you think. The Tigers did have a number of letdowns in pitching. But for the most part, for all of both teams troubles, the SOX couldnt rebound from theirs as quick as the Tigers did. To put all of this in a nutshell, look at our record in 2 run games. Heck, 1 run games compared to last year tells the tale too. You'd never think that we lead the league in home runs and runs scored by looking at those stats.

You may not want to, but just know that its HORRENDOUS. Basically shows that we cant come back and add a run or two to save our lives. (manufacturing runs)

Hangar18
09-22-2006, 02:51 PM
That alone I agree with. It goes to the old cliche that you can't fire all the players. Now, Ozzie's not going to be fired, but when a team seemingly underachieves a great deal not on par with their talent level, someone has to be accountable eventually. But...



My sentiments exactly. I'd like to see what any manager could do with a below average pitching staff, no matter what ingenious or obvious tweaks he makes to the lineup or magical bullpen management or stirring locker rooom speeches or voodoo spells he casts. The answer is not much.


Good point. but all I have to do is look at the Twins, and think how in the world are they doing what theyre doing with guys named Bonser and Baker, and Punto? The only thing I can come up with (besides looking at their gaudy numbers) is just tip the cap and realize they want it ....Badly.

fquaye149
09-22-2006, 02:53 PM
hey man, we were watching the same season. We are in more agreement than you think. The Tigers did have a number of letdowns in pitching. But for the most part, for all of both teams troubles, the SOX couldnt rebound from theirs as quick as the Tigers did. To put all of this in a nutshell, look at our record in 2 run games. Heck, 1 run games compared to last year tells the tale too. You'd never think that we lead the league in home runs and runs scored by looking at those stats.

You may not want to, but just know that its HORRENDOUS. Basically shows that we cant come back and add a run or two to save our lives. (manufacturing runs)

You're still not listening. The Tiger's letdowns in pitching were ABERRATIONS. The White Sox's GOOD pitching performances were aberrations.

That is--it was a rare occasion when a Tiger pitched poorly
It was a rare occasion when a White Sox pitched well.

Look at the team ERA's and compare them. The White Sox pitchers aren't fit to lick the Tigers' pitchers' jocks, or at least not in 2006.

And by the way--most people will tell you that record in one or two run games reflects the quality of the bullpen. Most people will tell you this. I'm sure you won't listen, but most people will tell you this.

fquaye149
09-22-2006, 02:55 PM
Good point. but all I have to do is look at the Twins, and think how in the world are they doing what theyre doing with guys named Bonser and Baker, and Punto? The only thing I can come up with (besides looking at their gaudy numbers) is just tip the cap and realize they want it ....Badly.

They are giving up one less run a game.

Look at the numbers. Bonser and Baker would have the best ERAs in our starting rotation. Their lineup has a few no-names, but we had Uribe hitting .220, Pods hitting .260, and although he was resurgent, Anderson hitting .230.

Our middle of the lineup is great, but theirs is no slouch.

Combine a lineup that's not a ton worse than ours with a rotation (and bullpen) that's a ton better, and they should be 5 games a head

I don't know what you never having heard of Boof Bonser has to do with him pitching circles around anyone in our staff.

Hangar18
09-22-2006, 04:52 PM
You're still not listening. The Tiger's letdowns in pitching were ABERRATIONS. The White Sox's GOOD pitching performances were aberrations.

That is--it was a rare occasion when a Tiger pitched poorly
It was a rare occasion when a White Sox pitched well.

Look at the team ERA's and compare them. The White Sox pitchers aren't fit to lick the Tigers' pitchers' jocks, or at least not in 2006.



I can accept most of this ....... but ................

Hangar18
09-22-2006, 04:55 PM
I don't know what you never having heard of Boof Bonser has to do with him pitching circles around anyone in our staff.


I joked with some of the guys in the office, and asked if anyone had picked him up in any Fantasy Leagues. Noone has. My point about Bonser is, he really wasnt expected to pitch as well as he has. Guys like Garcia, Garland and Vazquez were expected to do so. Can we say he's pitching with "heart", or that doesnt fit into any measurable scientific statistic. Dont know how hes doing it, but hes pitching his butt off. who would think he'd be a hero?

Hangar18
09-22-2006, 04:59 PM
Of course he ought to be held responsible for:

Mackowiack in center
Bullpen decisions
Calling out Tracey
The Mariotti incident
Some of Cora's questionable decisions

but the fact is, those are so very secondary (with the exception of Mackowiack and bullpen decisions) that they hardly bear mentioning compared to the big issue of starting pitchers pitching awfully and a shortage of bullpen talent.

your on to something here. Your right, these actions are secondary to big picture items like the bullpen.
I can count about 4 or 5 games where Mack in CF cost us the game.
I can count about 4 games where questionable BP decisions cost us a game
I can count on 4 games where Cora sent a guy he shouldnt have sent.
and obviously cost us.

Thats 12 games right there. If we could have those 12 back ..............

JB98
09-22-2006, 05:20 PM
your on to something here. Your right, these actions are secondary to big picture items like the bullpen.
I can count about 4 or 5 games where Mack in CF cost us the game.
I can count about 4 games where questionable BP decisions cost us a game
I can count on 4 games where Cora sent a guy he shouldnt have sent.
and obviously cost us.

Thats 12 games right there. If we could have those 12 back ..............

One thing you're forgetting: Every manager has games where "questionable BP decisions" prove costly. Each time a bullpen pitcher fails, the manager gets questioned. And we've had a lot of bullpen pitchers have bad outings repeatedly this year. In fairness to Ozzie, he's choosing amongst a host of bad options in many cases.

I'm not scapegoating our third-base coach. Honestly, I can think of one game the entire season where I thought a decision he made truly cost us. Blaming a third-base coach is Cub-like.

PennStater98r
09-25-2006, 06:17 PM
I have to agree with Hanger on the heart comment.

I simply wanted to post once more on this thread to say that; a) I never posted any "told ya so" type comments.

The only thing that I have whole heartedly disagreed with on this thread is "not having the magic/mojo/whatever."

Hanger posted the "magic" word up there as to what this team was missing. They didn't have the heart ladies and gentlemen. That said, I am not saying they didn't play their asses off - nor am I saying they lacked talent.

What I am saying is that in 2005 - when the Sox were losing - it was their heart that made me believe that the game was not over. I always thought they could win. When the Sox had a close lead in 2005, I knew they had the game in the bag, because of their hearts. This year, I just didn't feel or see it. Does that mean they didn't try? No. It just means they weren't as hungry for it. They didn't have the burning in their stomachs and hearts to go out there and steal it away from Detroit. They didn't have the teeth to bite off the Twinkies' heads and finish them off when they should have in July. They didn't have that hunger nor the heart that they had last year.

That team would have put a ball in the ear of a Texas Ranger. That team would have put Torii Hunter or some "no name Kansas City third baseman chump" on his ass (too bad he was injured most of last year - b/c I think we could have seen that prick get his) for bat flips and their offensive outbursts against the Sox. Last years team would not have pitched to Ian Kinsler like he was Babe flippin' Ruth.

I think Hanger nailed it with "heart." Heart = magic.