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View Full Version : First KW, now OG blames himself for season


caulfield12
09-20-2006, 08:25 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/telander/cst-spt-rick20.html

What's next, JR saying they should have spent $115-120 million and added Soriano to the club?

mrwag
09-20-2006, 08:34 AM
Just Ozzie being Ozzie. :smile:

I blame him for putting Mack in CF every other day, which I guarantee cost us a trip to the post season. A handful of games will be the difference - book it.

MadetoOrta
09-20-2006, 08:35 AM
OK. That's a good first step. Step 2? Put Cora in the dugout and find an experienced baseball guy to coach 3d base who won't send Paul "Piano on my back" Konerko home to be thrown out by 20 feet.

caulfield12
09-20-2006, 08:38 AM
Just Ozzie being Ozzie. :smile:

I blame him for putting Mack in CF every other day, which I guarantee cost us a trip to the post season. A handful of games will be the difference - book it.

There's TOO many of these to ponder...it will drive one crazy. What's done is done...the Twins lost two of their three best pitchers and still overcame that (along with Hunter being out a month, and Stewart as well), if they were healthy the entire year, it would have been a massacre the way they're going now.

GoSox2K3
09-20-2006, 08:43 AM
OK. That's a good first step. Step 2? Put Cora in the dugout and find an experienced baseball guy to coach 3d base who won't send Paul "Piano on my back" Konerko home to be thrown out by 20 feet.

Amen!

Seems like there's been alot of finger pointing going on the last few days. It's about time Cora gets his share of the blame. Being aggressive is fine, but I think contending teams should do better than just green light everybody and just hope for a bad throw to avoid being out by a mile.

Frater Perdurabo
09-20-2006, 09:01 AM
Just Ozzie being Ozzie. :smile:

I blame him for putting Mack in CF every other day, which I guarantee cost us a trip to the post season. A handful of games will be the difference - book it.

Just compare the team's records when Anderson starts (well above .500) and when Mackowiak starts in CF (very close to .500).

This is a case of correlation, not just mere coincidence.

oeo
09-20-2006, 09:33 AM
I don't blame Ozzie at all, at least when you're looking at the whole season.

Just like the article says, they could never get everything going at once...that's why they didn't play to their potential.

If they can't pull this out, I've got a feeling that the 'intensity' that Hawk is always talking about, will be there next year. Hopefully they can still find it this year. But, next year they will have already gone through what it's like to win a championship and be a champion; experience can mean a lot.

Sox35th
09-20-2006, 09:51 AM
Just Ozzie being Ozzie. :smile:

I blame him for putting Mack in CF every other day, which I guarantee cost us a trip to the post season. A handful of games will be the difference - book it.


I blame Anderson and Uribe for hitting .160 early in the season!! How many games did they cost us ?? Going 0-3 or 0-4 hurts big time....you just can't have that when you loss games by one or two runs!!

chisoxfanatic
09-20-2006, 09:56 AM
Just Ozzie being Ozzie. :smile:

I blame him for putting Mack in CF every other day, which I guarantee cost us a trip to the post season. A handful of games will be the difference - book it.

Not only that; but, Ozzie also mismanaged the bullpen, putting guys in at the wrong times tons of times, and not pulling/keeping in the starters when they should be.

itsnotrequired
09-20-2006, 10:07 AM
I blame Anderson and Uribe for hitting .160 early in the season!! How many games did they cost us ?? Going 0-3 or 0-4 hurts big time....you just can't have that when you loss games by one or two runs!!


Friday, April 14: Anderson goes 0-5 but he wasn't the reason Vazquez gave up 9 runs in 6 innings.
Tuesday, May 2: Anderson and Uribe both go 0-4 but they weren't the reason Buehrle gave up 7 runs in 5 2/3 innings.
Wednesday, May 10: Uribe goes 0-3 but he wasn't the reason Haeger gave up 6 runs in 4 1/3 innings.
Friday, May 12: Anderson goes 0-2 and Uribe goes 0-3 but they weren't the reason Garland gave up 7 runs in 5 1/3 innings.
Friday, May 26: Anderson goes 0-2 and Uribe goes 0-3 but they weren't the reason Garcia gave up 5 runs in 5 1/3 innings.
Shall I continue?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Pitching, not hitting, is what bit this team in the ass this year.

oeo
09-20-2006, 10:09 AM
Not only that; but, Ozzie also mismanaged the bullpen, putting guys in at the wrong times tons of times, and not pulling/keeping in the starters when they should be.

It all goes back to the players not performing (namely the pitching staff, what we were supposed to be built around). If there's one thing wrong with Ozzie, it's that he has too much confidence in his players.

If you were to tell me that our offense would score the second most runs in the majors at the beginning of the season, I would have said we were going to win 120 games.

Chicken Dinner
09-20-2006, 10:12 AM
Not only that; but, Ozzie also mismanaged the bullpen, putting guys in at the wrong times tons of times, and not pulling/keeping in the starters when they should be.

Ozzie definitely needs some better bullpen management skills.

Myrtle72
09-20-2006, 10:13 AM
It all goes back to the players not performing (namely the pitching staff, what we were supposed to be built around). If there's one thing wrong with Ozzie, it's that he has too much confidence in his players.

I agree. You can't blame Ozzie 100% when all he does is put the players in there, its up to the players to actually perfrorm and win the games. Ozzie is not the reason Mack can't catch, nor is he the reason BA had trouble hitting early in the season, and he is certianly not the reason that the majority of our bullpen have been having brainfarts.

He is; however, a little to confident in the players, gives some a little too much credit while others he ignores when they are doing well. That, is confusing, and yes, he is partly to blame, but ultimately, it's up to the player to go out there and perform the way they're paid to.

Lip Man 1
09-20-2006, 10:27 AM
The season is not totally Ozzie's fault, players DO have to perform...however a manager's job is to put his players in the very BEST position to succeed.

Can you honestly say Ozzie's done that this season?

And I'm not only talking about Anderson and Mack...how about running Cotts out there time after time after time when he simply didn't have it physically or perhaps more importantly mentally (ditto for Politte)

Lip

Thome25
09-20-2006, 10:29 AM
Just compare the team's records when Anderson starts (well above .500) and when Mackowiak starts in CF (very close to .500).

This is a case of correlation, not just mere coincidence.

Yeah blame Mackowiak because the team couldn't pitch this year. What is Brian Anderson's ERA again?

Chicken Dinner
09-20-2006, 10:32 AM
Even if you have the finest ingredients, that doesn't mean that the meal is going to taste good. They need to be mix well and in the right proportions.

Myrtle72
09-20-2006, 10:37 AM
The season is not totally Ozzie's fault, players DO have to perform...however a manager's job is to put his players in the very BEST position to succeed.

Can you honestly say Ozzie's done that this season?


Oh, I agree with you completely.

Ozzie has not been putting the best guys out there when they should be.

BUT, that doesn't mean that they players are completely exempt from any blame. Cotts needs to step up to the plate and start pitching so he can be called if needed and we can be confident in him. He's getting paid to do that, no?

I mean, look at it from Ozzie's perspective: he has to deal with a bullpen that has some serious limitations. He only has a handful of people he can confidently call on. And while I think he has a little too much confidence in some people, I'd rather see him giving people the benifit of the doubt than tossing every player aside at the first sign of weakness.

EndemicSox
09-20-2006, 10:40 AM
A good or bad manager can give a team what? A 5 game swing? The lack of clutch hitting and crappy pitching has killed this team, not Ozzie. If our pitchers had performed at a level even a notch or two below last season's level of performance, Ozzie Guillen would be up for manager of the year.

guillen4life13
09-20-2006, 10:52 AM
The missing ingredient this year was a solid relief corps, which looked good on paper at the beginning of the season. Politte and Cotts were expected to be our setup men, and two of the best in the business to boot.

Neither performed for various reasons. It was up to KW and Ozzie to take care of that.

Couple that with the horribly inconsistent starting pitching (Garcia not getting pumped for "meaningless" games), etc., and you have a problem.

Flight #24
09-20-2006, 11:23 AM
The missing ingredient this year was a solid relief corps, which looked good on paper at the beginning of the season. Politte and Cotts were expected to be our setup men, and two of the best in the business to boot.

Neither performed for various reasons. It was up to KW and Ozzie to take care of that.

Couple that with the horribly inconsistent starting pitching (Garcia not getting pumped for "meaningless" games), etc., and you have a problem.

One reason why the Twins have arguably been the best team in baseball since May 1: They're an astounding 76-0 when they have a lead in the 8th (per a stat I saw in the Trib this AM). That's a good bullpen, as usual.

caulfield12
09-20-2006, 11:30 AM
One reason why the Twins have arguably been the best team in baseball since May 1: They're an astounding 76-0 when they have a lead in the 8th (per a stat I saw in the Trib this AM). That's a good bullpen, as usual.

They have lost one game....just one though.

caulfield12
09-20-2006, 11:32 AM
A good or bad manager can give a team what? A 5 game swing? The lack of clutch hitting and crappy pitching has killed this team, not Ozzie. If our pitchers had performed at a level even a notch or two below last season's level of performance, Ozzie Guillen would be up for manager of the year.

Nobody was going to beat BOTH Leyland and Gardenhire...their teams have "overachieved" with much lower payrolls (the Twins were 8 games under .500 in early May) and they still would be the MOY (one of the two) even if the White Sox won the division, simply due to the low expectations.

spiffie
09-20-2006, 11:45 AM
A good or bad manager can give a team what? A 5 game swing? The lack of clutch hitting and crappy pitching has killed this team, not Ozzie. If our pitchers had performed at a level even a notch or two below last season's level of performance, Ozzie Guillen would be up for manager of the year.
5 games is looking like the difference between defending our title and going home for the winter after Oct. 1.

Iguana775
09-20-2006, 11:48 AM
Just Ozzie being Ozzie. :smile:

I blame him for putting Mack in CF every other day, which I guarantee cost us a trip to the post season. A handful of games will be the difference - book it.

Agree 100%.

Hitmen77
09-20-2006, 12:08 PM
I think some of you get on here and defend BA so you can say "I told you so" if he ever does make it big. You wanna say "I liked BA before it was cool to like him."

So, I don't get the logic of your signature. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but are you serious? I guess by that logic, anyone who defends a rookie who is hitting .290 in the 2nd half and plays great defense is just doing so because they hope to gloat at some point in the future? :?: I guess no one is interested in seeing potential home grown talent develop? On the flip side, couldn't one argue that you're ripping on BA so that you can say "I told you so" if he eventually flops?

Sox-o-matic
09-20-2006, 12:16 PM
Not only that; but, Ozzie also mismanaged the bullpen, putting guys in at the wrong times tons of times, and not pulling/keeping in the starters when they should be.

If Ozzie had gone with his best reliever every time he had to this season, Thornton and Jenks wouldn't have arms. Ozzie managed the bullpen just like he did last year. It's not his fault that Cotts, Politte, Riske, McCarthy, etc. couldn't get the job done. Three of these guys (Riske, Cotts, Politte) have been closers or setup men for most of their careers, and for them to fart on the team in the 6th inning and leave it hanging there when they exit the mound in the same inning is BS.

I don't even know how many times Ozzie went to Cotts and Politte when he needed a big out or two. They blew up almost every time, but don't blame Ozzie for that because he gave them the chance to be good again.

*EDIT: Also, about the starters being pulled at the wrong times, it's real easy to say that in hindsight. There is one game I can think of where Ozzie pulled a starter when we had a big lead against Cleveland I think, and Cleveland beat up the garbage in our pen to crawl back in the game. Other than that, I think Ozzie has done the best he could with the starters. Remember early in the year when Buehrle gave up like 7 runs or so in the 1st inning? Ozzie kept him in and we won the game IIRC. Also, people here, including myself, were shouting at Ozzie to take Javy out of the game in the 6th because of his continuing 6/7th inning troubles. But what happens when Ozzie finally gives up on his pitcher like we all wanted him to and pulls him? The bullpen comes in and throws the game away.

With the amount of talent on this team, if the players actually performed the way they were supposed to, any manager in baseball except for maybe Dusty Baker could have managed this team to another World Championship.

wdelaney72
09-20-2006, 12:24 PM
Q: Does Brian Anderson playing CF have a direct + or - impact on the starting pitchers' ERA

A: Yes it does. It lowers E.R.A. Brian Anderson would have saved MANY a run for the SP (earned runs) had he been in the field.

maurice
09-20-2006, 12:31 PM
So, I don't get the logic of your signature. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but are you serious? . . . On the flip side, couldn't one argue that you're ripping on BA so that you can say "I told you so" if he eventually flops?

In another thread, he said that he defends anything (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1356118&postcount=149) Ozzie Guillen does, irrespective of logic, because of the 2005 season. Therefore, his mortal enemy is anybody who thinks that Anderson should play CF every day. He also said that Anderson is "nothing" and "probably" = Jeff Abbott.
:rolleyes:

itsnotrequired
09-20-2006, 12:32 PM
Q: Does Brian Anderson playing CF have a direct + or - impact on the starting pitchers' ERA

A: Yes it does. It lowers E.R.A. Brian Anderson would have saved MANY a run for the SP (earned runs) had he been in the field.

That's another good point. However, a 0-5 performance at the plate neither helps nor hurts a pitcher's ERA.

MadetoOrta
09-20-2006, 01:00 PM
That's another good point. However, a 0-5 performance at the plate neither helps nor hurts a pitcher's ERA.

And that's why he's the #9 hitter in the Order.

itsnotrequired
09-20-2006, 01:04 PM
And that's why he's the #9 hitter in the Order.

And that's why I have no problem with Anderson in the lineup everyday. His defense alone makes up for any perceived shortcomings at the plate (and since the All Star break, those shortcomings have all but disappeared). Remember, this is an offense that has the most hits, most home runs, scored the 2nd most runs and 4th best average. Despite all the grumbling about the team not being clutch, they have the best average with RISP and third best with RISP and 2 outs.

PITCHING, PITCHING, PITCHING!!!

mcg
09-20-2006, 01:54 PM
Yeah blame Mackowiak because the team couldn't pitch this year. What is Brian Anderson's ERA again?
Obviously it's not completely Mackowiak's fault but he does, in a way, contribute to "poor" pitching. Guys like Buehrle and Garland are not strikeout pitchers. They need solid defense behind them to get guys out.

I don't remember which game it was but one in of the A's games (I think with Garland pitching) Mack fails to make a catch in centerfield resulting in runners on 2nd and 3rd with no outs instead of just a runner on 1st with one out. Those two guys are sac-flied in (indvidually) and the Sox lost 4-2. There is no way Anderson doesn't make that catch in centerfield.

Our pitchers need solid defense behind them. Ask anyone (except Ozzie), pitching and defense are always more important than hitting.

caulfield12
09-20-2006, 02:54 PM
If Ozzie had gone with his best reliever every time he had to this season, Thornton and Jenks wouldn't have arms. Ozzie managed the bullpen just like he did last year. It's not his fault that Cotts, Politte, Riske, McCarthy, etc. couldn't get the job done. Three of these guys (Riske, Cotts, Politte) have been closers or setup men for most of their careers, and for them to fart on the team in the 6th inning and leave it hanging there when they exit the mound in the same inning is BS.

I don't even know how many times Ozzie went to Cotts and Politte when he needed a big out or two. They blew up almost every time, but don't blame Ozzie for that because he gave them the chance to be good again.

*EDIT: Also, about the starters being pulled at the wrong times, it's real easy to say that in hindsight. There is one game I can think of where Ozzie pulled a starter when we had a big lead against Cleveland I think, and Cleveland beat up the garbage in our pen to crawl back in the game. Other than that, I think Ozzie has done the best he could with the starters. Remember early in the year when Buehrle gave up like 7 runs or so in the 1st inning? Ozzie kept him in and we won the game IIRC. Also, people here, including myself, were shouting at Ozzie to take Javy out of the game in the 6th because of his continuing 6/7th inning troubles. But what happens when Ozzie finally gives up on his pitcher like we all wanted him to and pulls him? The bullpen comes in and throws the game away.

With the amount of talent on this team, if the players actually performed the way they were supposed to, any manager in baseball except for maybe Dusty Baker could have managed this team to another World Championship.

Garland had just under 100 pitches (96 I think) and COULD have pitched the 7th. However, when you can't hold a 10-1 lead (at home) with ANY of your bullpen on the mound, AAA call-up or not, there are bigger issues.

The Buehrle start was the Sunday night ESPN game that he was lights out after that first inning....when all the rumors were swirling about "tipping pitches" and that was changing his motion a little to hide the ball. Bert Blyleven noticed it.

Thornton and MacDougal were the main culprits in that inning...although if Mike really was still ouchy, I think Ozzie could have stayed with Javier until one baserunner reached. Obviously, our relievers have struggled all 2nd half w/ allowing inherited runners to score.

SABRSox
09-20-2006, 03:47 PM
And that's why he's the #9 hitter in the Order.

To be honest, a team cannot afford to field a hitter that's going to regularly hit 0-5, despite his defensive prowess. That kind of automatic out is a rally killer, and this team struggled to string hits together. When they did, more often then not the guys weren't getting knocked in, and that's what good teams do.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in the play BA club, but his first half was terrible, and that's when he should have been benched. He's been much better in the second half, and should be playing every day. If Ozzie wants to play Mack, put him in left and let Pods sit on the bench.

A. Cavatica
09-20-2006, 07:16 PM
I give Ozzie credit for standing up and saying it. I think he's right. The blame for not making the playoff with the deepest, most talented Sox team I've ever seen lies squarely on his shoulders.

Because of 2005, I think he'll get one more chance. But if I were Williams and Reinsdorf, if he were to tender his resignation, I'd accept it. He's had that bad a year.

SABRSox
09-20-2006, 07:31 PM
I give Ozzie credit for standing up and saying it. I think he's right. The blame for not making the playoff with the deepest, most talented Sox team I've ever seen lies squarely on his shoulders.

Because of 2005, I think he'll get one more chance. But if I were Williams and Reinsdorf, if he were to tender his resignation, I'd accept it. He's had that bad a year.

I don't know about that. He needs to learn how to manage a bullpen though. That area of managing has been atrocious, and always has been. He had the luxury of a fantastically good bullpen in 2005. It didn't matter who he called in from the pen, they got outs. Not the case this year.

And the Brian Anderson stuff is just bizarre. I hope Kenny knows what's really going on, because all we can do is speculate. He'd better not give up on BA after 1 season. He's going to be a good one.

Daver
09-20-2006, 08:04 PM
To be honest, a team cannot afford to field a hitter that's going to regularly hit 0-5

National league teams do it every game.

For most AL teams, the catcher bats in the 9 slot, because any offense you get is a bonus from that position, AJ is better at the plate than he is with his glove, and the Sox are willing to give up poor plate defense for his offense. This also allows them to play a defensive player in the nine slot, why you don't play your best defensive outfielder 9 games out of ten still astounds me.

That being said, pitching is more to blame than any other aspect for this season.

kitekrazy
09-20-2006, 08:48 PM
Even if you have the finest ingredients, that doesn't mean that the meal is going to taste good. They need to be mix well and in the right proportions.

Yep. Look at the Yankees.

Daver
09-20-2006, 08:50 PM
Yep. Look at the Yankees.

The Yankees are going to win their division, and probably finish with the best record in baseball. Not sure where you are going with that.

Lip Man 1
09-20-2006, 10:06 PM
Daver:

And they are going to do it with serious injuries to a pair of their best hitters and a supposedly 'bad' pitching staff.

Lip

Sox-o-matic
09-21-2006, 01:23 AM
The Yankees are going to win their division, and probably finish with the best record in baseball. Not sure where you are going with that.

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I thought the depleted Yankees team that swept us earlier in the year was a better team than the Yanks we have been seeing recently. When they lost all their home run hitters they went back to what made them so successful during their latest dynasty in that they advanced runners, ran on pitchers and put pressure on defenses, pitched just well enough to win a close game, and came up with clutch hits.

If they can continue that formula I think they'll take home the trophy this year.

Man Soo Lee
09-21-2006, 03:17 AM
Just compare the team's records when Anderson starts (well above .500) and when Mackowiak starts in CF (very close to .500).

This is a case of correlation, not just mere coincidence.

I agree that Anderson should have played more often in the second half, but your numbers are wrong. Looking over Mackowiak's game log (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=4718) shows the Sox are:

28-22 (.560) when Mackowiak starts in CF
2-1 (.667) when Sweeney starts in CF, leaving
55-44 (.555) when Anderson starts in CF

Anderson's "record" has been hurt by the team-wide struggles vs. left-handed pitching, but the correlation that you suggested isn't true.

wdelaney72
09-21-2006, 07:20 AM
PITCHING, PITCHING, PITCHING!!!

... and I completely agree.

First and foremost, the starting pitching gets the most blame. They put the team in a hole almost every game, and they are largely the reason why the bullpen has been so awful the second half. If you think about it, all of the starters (excluding Garland) were lucky to get 6 innings... ALMOST ALL SEASON. I think our bullpen paid a hefty price tag through the first half of the season and simply ran out of gas. They were simply way overworked thanks to poor starting pitching.

Ozzie and his refusal to play BA in CF falls right behind this... just plain stupid.

DumpJerry
09-21-2006, 07:28 AM
The blame belongs on the lap of those who decided Mark Buerhle cannot do the Slip 'n Slide. I'm serious. Took the fun out of being a Sox player. Cost us the looseness which enabled them to steamroller the MLB last year.

jenn2080
09-21-2006, 07:31 AM
The blame belongs on the lap of those who decided Mark Buerhle cannot do the Slip 'n Slide. I'm serious. Took the fun out of being a Sox player. Cost us the looseness which enabled them to steamroller the MLB last year.

Do not forget about the live hair cuts for AJ and Crede. Oh and not taking Pods to Lencrafters for that vision test.

ode to veeck
09-21-2006, 07:35 AM
For most AL teams, the catcher bats in the 9 slot, because any offense you get is a bonus from that position, AJ is better at the plate than he is with his glove, and the Sox are willing to give up poor plate defense for his offense. This also allows them to play a defensive player in the nine slot, why you don't play your best defensive outfielder 9 games out of ten still astounds me.

That being said, pitching is more to blame than any other aspect for this season.

And that's why I have no problem with Anderson in the lineup everyday. His defense alone makes up for any perceived shortcomings at the plate (and since the All Star break, those shortcomings have all but disappeared). Remember, this is an offense that has the most hits, most home runs, scored the 2nd most runs and 4th best average. Despite all the grumbling about the team not being clutch, they have the best average with RISP and third best with RISP and 2 outs.

PITCHING, PITCHING, PITCHING!!!

The starters and bullpen were very tired looking, particularly in the 2nd half, and evan as the season winds down we see the guys who could do it, like Jenks, also showing the wear and tear of carrying it all (losing some MPG and giving up the blown saves in recent weeks). The sweep in Oakland last weekend really came down to the Sox holding the lead vs Oakland's bullpen which is really coming around at the right point in the season (and well, pitching to Frank in those two situations was just plain stupid, given Frank's strengths and Chavez's really poor RISP numbers).

On the pitching, the bullpen showed strong signs of problems long before the season was well under way, way back in spring training and the 1st few games of the season, not after the starters were leaving them lots of innings. Both starting pitching and the bullpen were consistent gaps, although at times the SP still looked like '05, e.g. Burly, Contreras in 1st half, Garland in 2nd half and a few jems and quality starts from most of the staff here in Sept (including Vasquez).