PDA

View Full Version : Hold The Phone On McCarthy


Lip Man 1
09-19-2006, 11:21 PM
Maybe he's NOT going to be a starter next season. From Whitesox.com: (and this is not the entire story...)

"Although general manager Ken Williams has talked about McCarthy returning to the rotation in 2007, manager Ozzie Guillen won't assume anything at this point. Guillen mentioned Tuesday that when the season is over, the front office will sit down and evaluate what the team needs and the direction it is moving toward next year.

Although Guillen understands McCarthy was placed in a foreign role this season, he also pointed out that McCarthy was never treated as an everyday reliever. He always was given substantial time to warm up and enter a ballgame.

"Is he a reliever? Right now, I don't know, because this is the first time he's ever done that," Guillen said. "I don't want to blame this kid when he fails, because he's doing something he never did before.

"On the other hand, every time he fails -- I hear a comment by Jack McDowell, when he says, 'You're a starter, you're a reliever, when you're on the mound you're a pitcher.' If you're a reliever or if you're a starter, when you're on the mound you're a pitcher, you still have to do your job."

Could McCarthy be in the same 'doghouse' as Anderson?

Gang it's gonna be a REALLY interesting off season.

Lip

Myrtle72
09-19-2006, 11:28 PM
I dunno about Ozzie or anyone else, but I was never that thrilled with having McCarthy starting next season.

beckett21
09-19-2006, 11:31 PM
"On the other hand, every time he fails -- I hear a comment by Jack McDowell, when he says, 'You're a starter, you're a reliever, when you're on the mound you're a pitcher.' If you're a reliever or if you're a starter, when you're on the mound you're a pitcher, you still have to do your job."



That's a great quote right there. Very true.

Either you can do the job, or you can't.

I doubt the Sox will put all of their eggs in his basket if they have any doubt whatsoever.

caulfield12
09-19-2006, 11:31 PM
Maybe he's NOT going to be a starter next season. From Whitesox.com: (and this is not the entire story...)

"Although general manager Ken Williams has talked about McCarthy returning to the rotation in 2007, manager Ozzie Guillen won't assume anything at this point. Guillen mentioned Tuesday that when the season is over, the front office will sit down and evaluate what the team needs and the direction it is moving toward next year.

Although Guillen understands McCarthy was placed in a foreign role this season, he also pointed out that McCarthy was never treated as an everyday reliever. He always was given substantial time to warm up and enter a ballgame.

"Is he a reliever? Right now, I don't know, because this is the first time he's ever done that," Guillen said. "I don't want to blame this kid when he fails, because he's doing something he never did before.

"On the other hand, every time he fails -- I hear a comment by Jack McDowell, when he says, 'You're a starter, you're a reliever, when you're on the mound you're a pitcher.' If you're a reliever or if you're a starter, when you're on the mound you're a pitcher, you still have to do your job."

Could McCarthy be in the same 'doghouse' as Anderson?

Gang it's gonna be a REALLY interesting off season.

Lip

Well, Freddy's finally mounting his campaign to be kept around when it's just a little too late....would have been nice to have put those two outings up against the Royals, although WED was still an important game.

He'll probably throw a no-hitter next time out and everyone will want to trade Jose or Mark, which would be pretty dumb IMO.

I don't think we can keep our payroll under $110 million unless we trade one of our pitchers, so I think that will happen for no other reason.

I'm not buying Mariotti's nonsense about how we would have won it with Soriano...I just think we might have ended up with yet another all or nothing, slump-prone hitter. His numbers would not have automatically translated to AL play. Look at what impact Carlos Lee's had, almost ZERO. And look at what the Rangers gave up...and, at that point, it was just a bit premature to give up on Pods, not to mention the fact that it seemed pitching was more important to add than hitting.

Hitmen77
09-19-2006, 11:33 PM
I dunno about Ozzie or anyone else, but I was never that thrilled with having McCarthy starting next season.

We'd certainly be taking a big risk by going with him. My guess is the though going into this season was that Brandon would have a fine season in the pen and would be ready smoothly transition to a starter next year.

But, he hasn't demonstrated at all that he's ready to start next year.

HotelWhiteSox
09-19-2006, 11:36 PM
I disagree with the 'either you can pitch or not'. Completely different situations, different prep, probably more likely to pitch with runners on (stretch vs windup), less room for error (starting, giving up multiple hits or a run or two is no problem. Horrible if a reliever). I wanted McCarthy starting, but now am worried about him breaking down next year due to not being used to pitching a lot of innings.

McCarthy was one of our stud future pitchers, and I like the philosophy of throwing a SP right into the fire (like Garland) rather than working him out of the bullpen (the way Cotts was ruined)

oeo
09-19-2006, 11:40 PM
We'd certainly be taking a big risk by going with him. My guess is the though going into this season was that Brandon would have a fine season in the pen and would be ready smoothly transition to a starter next year.

But, he hasn't demonstrated at all that he's ready to start next year.

There's no way to know if he's ready to start or not. He was given one game to start this year (I think). He's shown his flashes of greatness, and not so greatness. I think he'll be a fine starter. If they're not very high on him, I'd like to see them package him up for another lefty then (Bedard?). I'm in no way saying get rid of him, but it would be nice to have another lefty in the rotation.

caulfield12
09-19-2006, 11:44 PM
There's no way to know if he's ready to start or not. He was given one game to start this year (I think). He's shown his flashes of greatness, and not so greatness. I think he'll be a fine starter. If they're not very high on him, I'd like to see them package him up for another lefty then (Bedard?). I'm in no way saying get rid of him, but it would be nice to have another lefty in the rotation.

Good luck with that one. If we traded them McCarthy AND Garcia, they might do it.

beckett21
09-19-2006, 11:45 PM
Good luck with that one. If we traded them McCarthy AND Garcia, they might do it.

Bedard is good, but he's not that good. :rolleyes:

JB98
09-19-2006, 11:46 PM
Bedard is good, but he's not that good. :rolleyes:

Konerko, Garcia and Uribe for Bedard.:rolleyes:

oeo
09-19-2006, 11:51 PM
Good luck with that one. If we traded them McCarthy AND Garcia, they might do it.

Key word there was 'package'. But that's a steal for the O's.

caulfield12
09-19-2006, 11:54 PM
Key word there was 'package'. But that's a steal for the O's.

Everyone's turning around and now saying how great McCarthy is going to be, besides Mariotti, lol.

You can't have it both ways...he's an overrated prospect or he's the next Black Jack McDowell!

I agree we will be able to get more after Garcia's last couple of outings, probably won't need to even send money to offset his contract to the right NL team.

But McCarthy and Uribe for Bedard isn't going to do it either, or McCarthy and Pods.

oeo
09-19-2006, 11:58 PM
Everyone's turning around and now saying how great McCarthy is going to be, besides Mariotti, lol.

You can't have it both ways...he's an overrated prospect or he's the next Black Jack McDowell!

I agree we will be able to get more after Garcia's last couple of outings, probably won't need to even send money to offset his contract to the right NL team.

But McCarthy and Uribe for Bedard isn't going to do it either, or McCarthy and Pods.

Who ever put Uribe or Pods into the equation? I don't make the trades, I leave that to Kenny Williams. All I said was it would be nice to have another lefty, and Bedard was a pipedream.

I said that I thought he was going to be good, but if the team didn't think very highly of him, they might as well get something for him now.

A. Cavatica
09-20-2006, 12:15 AM
McCarthy was one of our stud future pitchers, and I like the philosophy of throwing a SP right into the fire (like Garland) rather than working him out of the bullpen (the way Cotts was ruined)

Cotts was ruined? His 2005 was one of the finest seasons by a Sox reliever I've ever seen, and he was instrumental in getting those rings. He seemed to be able to handle relief work; there's obviously something else wrong with him.

McCarthy proved to me in 2005 that he was ready to start. I think his confidence has been bruised a bit this year, and he does go through stretches where he gives up a lot of gopher balls, but he'll figure it out again.

Evman5
09-20-2006, 12:24 AM
McCarthy was one of our stud future pitchers, and I like the philosophy of throwing a SP right into the fire (like Garland) rather than working him out of the bullpen (the way Cotts was ruined)


Cotts wasn't ruined...he's young has a great arm and should bounce back next year. Also Buehrle came out of the pen before he became a starter. That move, minus this down year for him, worked out alright.

Evman5
09-20-2006, 12:33 AM
He has given up homeruns in consecutive outings a few times this season...However the difference is this. If he gives up a homerun as a starter, it may be a run or two, and he can still settle down and give 7 or 8 quality innings. As a reliever, he often comes in with the game on the line. If a reliever gives up a homer there is no way they can have a good outing and it could very well be the difference in the game.

McCarthy should and will be given the chance to start next year. Don't be fooled by this last season run by Garcia. He has lost velocity on all his pitches and should be traded. I am glad he is raising his stock these last few outings, maybe we can get a top of the order in return for Garcia and put Fields in left if he is ready.

DaleJRFan
09-20-2006, 12:35 AM
I don't want to make a seemingly rash evaluation of Garcia based on only a handful of starts, but ever since he has been throwing the splitter, he's been lights out. McCarthy would claim a high price on the trading block and you never know what's up KW's sleeve.

AaronRowandFan33
09-20-2006, 12:38 AM
how about some sort of a package trade for Carl Crawford. It seems like he'd be a PERFECT fit at the top of our lineup (OBP, more SB's than Pods), and it seems like he's absolutely available if the price is right.

That way, we know if McCarthy becomes a stud we don't have to worry too much about him playing in Tampa. He can give the AL East some fits over there. The D-Rays have a "loaded" outfield apparently...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5649680

Crawford comes at a decent price, and could play Left or Center depending on BA's hitting development next year. I'm thinking the deal would have to be something like McCarthy and Fields for Crawford, as TB obviously wouldn't take Pods. Maybe then you move Pods for a decent set up guy like a Rafael Soriano, Dan Wheeler. Or maybe you pay them to take Pods: McCarthy, Pods, and one of the young pitchers (Haeger, Boone, Tracey) for Crawford.

We'd have to give up some youth, but Crawford is an improvement over Scottie in literally every area area (BA, OBP, SB, HR, defense, arm) And for some reason I'd like to keep our 5 man rotation as is right now... NO stupid Windbag Circus this year (WBC) so Freddie and Javy get to prepare for the season normally instead of a month early...

I guess I don't know too much about Field's odds of becoming great (aside from yesterday's HR). And we're counting on Crede's back to hold up for a few years. So am I crazy?

you end up with something like:
Pods, Fields, McCarthy for Crawford and Soriano.

Evman5
09-20-2006, 12:40 AM
I don't want to make a seemingly rash evaluation of Garcia based on only a handful of starts, but ever since he has been throwing the splitter, he's been lights out. McCarthy would claim a high price on the trading block and you never know what's up KW's sleeve.


I think the comments about him throwing the splitter came about a month ago...Anyways he has mixed in a few good outings but he had a stretch where he gave up 5 runs in 4 consecutive games after he started throwing a splitter. Its not really making that big of a deal. Don't get me wrong I think he he a solid pitcher and should command a nice return. However, he is on the decline and McCarthy's future is much brighter.

caulfield12
09-20-2006, 12:50 AM
how about some sort of a package trade for Carl Crawford. It seems like he'd be a PERFECT fit at the top of our lineup (OBP, more SB's than Pods), and it seems like he's absolutely available if the price is right.

That way, we know if McCarthy becomes a stud we don't have to worry too much about him playing in Tampa. He can give the AL East some fits over there. The D-Rays have a "loaded" outfield apparently...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5649680

Crawford comes at a decent price, and could play Left or Center depending on BA's hitting development next year. I'm thinking the deal would have to be something like McCarthy and Fields for Crawford, as TB obviously wouldn't take Pods. Maybe then you move Pods for a decent set up guy like a Rafael Soriano, Dan Wheeler. Or maybe you pay them to take Pods: McCarthy, Pods, and one of the young pitchers (Haeger, Boone, Tracey) for Crawford.

We'd have to give up some youth, but Crawford is an improvement over Scottie in literally every area area (BA, OBP, SB, HR, defense, arm) And for some reason I'd like to keep our 5 man rotation as is right now... NO stupid Windbag Circus this year (WBC) so Freddie and Javy get to prepare for the season normally instead of a month early...

I guess I don't know too much about Field's odds of becoming great (aside from yesterday's HR). And we're counting on Crede's back to hold up for a few years. So am I crazy?

you end up with something like:
Pods, Fields, McCarthy for Crawford and Soriano.

If you think the M's are going to take back Pods and give us R. Soriano, you've been smokin' too much ganja.

A. Cavatica
09-20-2006, 12:54 AM
If you think the M's are going to take back Pods and give us R. Soriano, you've been smokin' too much ganja.

Pods and Garcia for Soriano and Jeremy Reed. :cool:

AaronRowandFan33
09-20-2006, 12:58 AM
Maybe then you move Pods for a decent set up guy like a Rafael Soriano, Dan Wheeler.

key word = like

just insert your favorite setup guy here...

you think LaTroy Hawkins is available?

Beautox
09-20-2006, 01:21 AM
I'm pretty sure a Left Handed reliever from the twins struggled out of the pen, but once into the rotation went on to win the CY, now I'm not saying McCarthy is the next Santana, but i will say he has shown flashes of brilliance, and there is a reason why KW hasn't given him or BA away, there is also a reason why KW is mad at Ozzie and the way he has mishandled both of them this season putting each in a position to fail.

100 Year Itch
09-20-2006, 01:21 AM
I think the most probable scenario will entail the Sox exercising Buehrle's 9.5 million dollar option and then ship him to a NL team.

California Sox
09-20-2006, 01:28 AM
That's a great quote right there. Very true.

Either you can do the job, or you can't.

I doubt the Sox will put all of their eggs in his basket if they have any doubt whatsoever.

I'd just like to point out that McCarthy has been a hell of a lot more successful than Black Jack was when he first came up. McDowell got pretty well rocked, then sent down to AAA where he was not impressive, then struggled for a couple months before junking his slider and turning into a hell of a pitcher. It's a little early to give up on McCarthy if you ask me.

Beautox
09-20-2006, 02:28 AM
how about some sort of a package trade for Carl Crawford. It seems like he'd be a PERFECT fit at the top of our lineup (OBP, more SB's than Pods), and it seems like he's absolutely available if the price is right.

That way, we know if McCarthy becomes a stud we don't have to worry too much about him playing in Tampa. He can give the AL East some fits over there. The D-Rays have a "loaded" outfield apparently...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5649680

Crawford comes at a decent price, and could play Left or Center depending on BA's hitting development next year. I'm thinking the deal would have to be something like McCarthy and Fields for Crawford, as TB obviously wouldn't take Pods. Maybe then you move Pods for a decent set up guy like a Rafael Soriano, Dan Wheeler. Or maybe you pay them to take Pods: McCarthy, Pods, and one of the young pitchers (Haeger, Boone, Tracey) for Crawford.

We'd have to give up some youth, but Crawford is an improvement over Scottie in literally every area area (BA, OBP, SB, HR, defense, arm) And for some reason I'd like to keep our 5 man rotation as is right now... NO stupid Windbag Circus this year (WBC) so Freddie and Javy get to prepare for the season normally instead of a month early...

I guess I don't know too much about Field's odds of becoming great (aside from yesterday's HR). And we're counting on Crede's back to hold up for a few years. So am I crazy?

you end up with something like:
Pods, Fields, McCarthy for Crawford and Soriano.

Crawford (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=408307) will come at a GREAT PRICE, but if Tampa is smart they will move him to bring there team out of the cellar and to the front of the AL East/WC by '08

The rays have some young pitching on the up and coming aside from Kazmir, they have Wade Davis & Jacob McGee (http://www.minorleagueball.com/story/2006/9/7/133944/6443), both are going to be top of the line starters, thats a pretty good core of starters right there, but thats not enough.

Here is what it would conceivably take to get Crawford, mind you its alot.
Just look at his contact and you will see why. Crawford is a 5 tool talent and is only 25, if he was in a larger market, he would be a super star, but his fame is rising.

Carl Crawford of
4 years/$15.25M (2005-08), plus 2009-10 club options

$0.5M signing bonus
05:$0.5M, 06:$2.5M, 07:$4M, 08:$5.25M, 09:$8.25M club option ($2.5M buyout), 10:$10M club option ($1.25M buyout)
2010 salary may increase to $11.5M with incentives
assignment bonus of up to $0.8M if traded
signed extension 4/05, replacing 1 year/$0.37M deal for 2005 which included a $20,000 bonus for reaching 500 PAs
1 year/$0.32M (2004)
1 year/$0.3M (2003)
agent: Brian PetersML service: 3.072 from Cot's Baseball Contracts (http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/)


Some of these people I'm going to mention aren't in our system but could be had if/when we trade Uribe, Podsednik, Garcia, and Jose.

Broadway or Carrillo + Phillips or Logan + Diamond or Marmol + Fields + Gload would get it done. The Rays want lots of young pitching and talent.

Upton who currently plays 3B(where he has become the new Cantu in the sense that hes bad defensively) moves to LF where he would be better suited, Fields retains his full value at 3B and is better defensively, Gload takes over at 1B and replaces Kevin Witt.

Lance Broadway RHP (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Lance%20Broadway&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=473560) was our 2005 first round pick and is in our system. He is only the third person from his draft class to make it to AAA or higher both Garza and Zimmerman are already in the bigs, according to John Sickels he thinks Broadway should be ready by mid '07.

Cesar Carrillo RHP (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Cesar%20Carrillo&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=460044) was also a first round pick but he has been out with elbow probelms this year, the only way we would acquire him is through trading Garcia to the Pads. Freddy has alot of upside, i think the WBC took some mph of his fastball, and with the splitty now in his arsenal along with pitching in the NL at Petco and a weak FA class this offseason, the sox appear to be in a good position move one possibly two of their starters this offseason.

Heath Phillips LHP (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Heath%20Phillips&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=457495) is in our system and finished the year strong at AAA(13-5, 2.96ERA) he is going to be one of 3 things; the next MB, an effective LOOGY/MR or a AAAA.

Boone Logan LHP (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Boone%20Logan&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=457429) is only 21 and as we all know went from single A to the bigs, he has shown flashes of dominance at both the ML(05/02/06 against the tribe where he went 2.1IP 5K 1BB) and MILB level(57K/42.2IP at AAA as their closer)

Thomas Diamond RHP (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Thomas%20Diamond&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=435080) "He led the Texas League with 145 strikeouts. He is still mainly a fastball pitcher(he can get it up to 97 but it sits in the mid 90s), but his changeup has improved considerably. He is still working on his breaking ball as opponents continue to foul off too many fastballs, resulting in high pitch counts. Diamond will be headed to the Instructional League." - T.R. Sullivan / MLB.com. He or someone similar to his stature would be acquired by dealing Jose or Garland to Texas along with Uribe for Michael Young and a mid level pitching prospect.

Carlos Marmol RHP (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Carlos%20Marmol&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=461791) is currently on the cubs and would be acquired by dealing Podsednik to them; Pierre is leaving via FA this offseason and Podsednik still has 3 years in ARB and is obviously having a down year, that seems to be the pattern to his career one great year one down year ect. Marmol has electric stuff and was converted to a pitcher, he was once a catcher. He is alot like Daniel Cabera (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=425555) of the O's in the sense that he has great stuff but no command he has walked as many as he has struck out at the ML level(59), hes still very raw but is a power arm.

Josh Fields 3B (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Josh%20Fields&pos=3B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=435222) was our 2004 first round draft choice, he had a break out year at AAA(.305avg,19HR,70RBI,28SB/5CS). He still needs to work on his plate disciple(54BB/136SO), hes very athletic and should become a good if not great 3B, hes going to be playing LF in winter ball this offseason. Josh has 5 tool potential (+avg,25-30HR,30SB,good arm, good fielder) but time will tell if he fulfills that potential or becomes another bust like Joe Borchard.

Ross Gload 1B (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=340393) I believe he could put up Mark Grace like stats during the course of a season at 1B (+.300 avg, 15HR), honestly whats not to like about Gload, the man has a great approach to hitting and always makes himself a tough out at the plate, hes not as good as Paul at picking/scooping the ball at 1B (but then again not many are) but he has better range and hes faster, he could defiantly save a young team like the D-Rays some errors. He already has the ring, why not go all out and see if he could be a starting first basemen for a lower tier team?

That is what i believe it would cost to get Crawford, and if you think otherwise you'd be lying to yourself Carl is a very special player.

we be jake
09-20-2006, 07:27 AM
I'd just like to point out that McCarthy has been a hell of a lot more successful than Black Jack was when he first came up. McDowell got pretty well rocked, then sent down to AAA where he was not impressive, then struggled for a couple months before junking his slider and turning into a hell of a pitcher. It's a little early to give up on McCarthy if you ask me.


Far, far to early. The same goes with most of our younger players. McCarthy has not been given much opportunity to show enough of what he really has, in a steady role, over any period of time, as to where a proper decision on his importance to this team could be made.

Craig Grebeck
09-20-2006, 08:00 AM
how about some sort of a package trade for Carl Crawford. It seems like he'd be a PERFECT fit at the top of our lineup (OBP, more SB's than Pods), and it seems like he's absolutely available if the price is right.
His OBP is terrible, he's never heard of a walk in his life. He is NOT a leadoff hitter.

This team needs to get younger. Trade Freddy, especially if he finishes strong and ups his trade value. I guarantee Brandon would put up better/comparable numbers to Garcia for 1/8th of the price.

KW needs to build around Javy, Jon, and Brandon. We can't waste 10 million a year on mediocre starting pitching.

caulfield12
09-20-2006, 08:29 AM
His OBP is terrible, he's never heard of a walk in his life. He is NOT a leadoff hitter.

This team needs to get younger. Trade Freddy, especially if he finishes strong and ups his trade value. I guarantee Brandon would put up better/comparable numbers to Garcia for 1/8th of the price.

KW needs to build around Javy, Jon, and Brandon. We can't waste 10 million a year on mediocre starting pitching.

Of course, the obvious question here is whether Vazquez is going to "average" again next year or the pitcher we've seen the last 6 weeks.

A lot has been made about the effort of pitchers and hitters with long-term contracts...obviously, we're not going to have many with the "incentives" of a Frank Thomas.

NoNeckEra
09-20-2006, 09:17 AM
I guarantee Brandon would put up better/comparable numbers to Garcia for 1/8th of the price.

This thread started as a misunderstanding of what Ozzie said in the article.
Brandon is either starting for the Sox or someone else next year. Period. I think any comments from Ozzie or KW about his performance this year is CYA due to their poor decision(in retrospect) to put him in the pen, and go with the "Big 5" in the rotation, and not make a mid-year trade of one of them.

russ99
09-20-2006, 09:23 AM
Carlos Marmol RHP (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Carlos%20Marmol&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=461791) is currently on the cubs and would be acquired by dealing Podsednik to them; Pierre is leaving via FA this offseason and Podsednik still has 3 years in ARB and is obviously having a down year, that seems to be the pattern to his career one great year one down year ect. Marmol has electric stuff and was converted to a pitcher, he was once a catcher. He is alot like Daniel Cabera (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=425555) of the O's in the sense that he has great stuff but no command he has walked as many as he has struck out at the ML level(59), hes still very raw but is a power arm. and see if he could be a starting first basemen for a lower tier team?

Marmol isn't going anywhere - the Cubs realize what thay have in him and to rebuild they'll need guys like him.

Geez, I have to sit through a horrible season by my favorite Sox player and then he gets traded to the stinkin Cubs? Go ahead, rip my heart out while you're at it.

Besides, Pods won't be traded. If the Sox get rid of him this offseason (I'm holding out some hope to the contrary despite all the press leaks) they'll just not offer him arbitration in December, making him a free agent.

If Pods (one year on - one year off) pattern is so obvious, than why are the Sox (fans too) in such a hurry to get rid of him? I still think that an offseason completely off from baseball or surgeries, and he'll be at least closer to his early 2005 self with a full spring training. I just hope another team (or a rival) doesn't end up with that.

batmanZoSo
09-20-2006, 09:28 AM
We can't waste 10 million a year on mediocre starting pitching.

They don't get more mediocre than Javy, and for right about that price too.

caulfield12
09-20-2006, 09:33 AM
Marmol isn't going anywhere - the Cubs realize what thay have in him and to rebuild they'll need guys like him.

Geez, I have to sit through a horrible season by my favorite Sox player and then he gets traded to the stinkin Cubs? Go ahead, rip my heart out while you're at it.

Besides, Pods won't be traded. If the Sox get rid of him this offseason (I'm holding out some hope to the contrary despite all the press leaks) they'll just not offer him arbitration in December, making him a free agent.

If Pods (one year on - one year off) pattern is so obvious, than why are the Sox (fans too) in such a hurry to get rid of him? I still think that an offseason completely off from baseball or surgeries, and he'll be at least closer to his early 2005 self with a full spring training. I just hope another team (or a rival) doesn't end up with that.

Like the Twins, lol....seriously, they will probably let Tyner go. Can you imagine them going into next season with Tyner and Pods as their LF and CF?

Well, I can and I can't, which means it MIGHT happen...although they both get the majority of their AB's against RHP, so it might not be logical. They could always relegate Tyner to the bench and still sign Scot.

I think it would scare Sox fans a lot if it were to happen...we would simply assume he was going to steal 70 bases again and get caught only 15 times over there.

russ99
09-20-2006, 09:38 AM
I think the most probable scenario will entail the Sox exercising Buehrle's 9.5 million dollar option and then ship him to a NL team.

Do the Cardinals have anyone we want?
:rolleyes:

Scottiehaswheels
09-20-2006, 09:39 AM
I think it would scare Sox fans a lot if it were to happen...we would simply assume he was going to steal 70 bases again and get caught only 15 times over there.
Against our pitching staff and facing us 19 times he could get 70SB against us alone

caulfield12
09-20-2006, 09:39 AM
Do the Cardinals have anyone we want?
:rolleyes:


Mark Mulder, FA. Sign him to a Frank Thomas, incentives-based deal, along with Jose Guillen for LF.

spiffie
09-20-2006, 10:54 AM
His OBP is terrible, he's never heard of a walk in his life. He is NOT a leadoff hitter.

The guy has a .345 OBP and an .820 OPS. His numbers have been going up every season, and he's only 25 years old. By the time he hits 28 there's no reason to believe he won't be up around 360-370 OBP and 850-890 OPS. I'll take that, with 50 SB at the top of my order and day.

INSox56
09-20-2006, 11:03 AM
Marmol isn't going anywhere - the Cubs realize what thay have in him and to rebuild they'll need guys like him.

Geez, I have to sit through a horrible season by my favorite Sox player and then he gets traded to the stinkin Cubs? Go ahead, rip my heart out while you're at it.

Besides, Pods won't be traded. If the Sox get rid of him this offseason (I'm holding out some hope to the contrary despite all the press leaks) they'll just not offer him arbitration in December, making him a free agent.

If Pods (one year on - one year off) pattern is so obvious, than why are the Sox (fans too) in such a hurry to get rid of him? I still think that an offseason completely off from baseball or surgeries, and he'll be at least closer to his early 2005 self with a full spring training. I just hope another team (or a rival) doesn't end up with that.


Yes, but as Walk and Oz have pointed out...he's a major head case. He has had his head all screwed up since the first game of the year they say. He's putting so much pressure on himself that it's impossible to succeed. What happens if he's on the team again next year, struggles a little bit in ST, then struggles the 1st week? Hello 2006

Flight #24
09-20-2006, 11:12 AM
"On the other hand, every time he fails -- I hear a comment by Jack McDowell, when he says, 'You're a starter, you're a reliever, when you're on the mound you're a pitcher.' If you're a reliever or if you're a starter, when you're on the mound you're a pitcher, you still have to do your job."


IMO while there's some truth to that statement, it applies more to veterans than rookies. By all accounts, it's a pretty tough transition from AAA to the bigs, especially as a pitcher. That means the more comfortable/established a guy is in what he's doing, the better positioned he is to succeed. Putting a guy in a new role in the bigs makes him adjust not only to the different caliber of play, but also to the role, and doesn't maximize the chances of success, IMO.

Now, once that adjustment has been made, it's fair to say "you get people out".

Beautox
09-20-2006, 11:12 AM
His OBP is terrible, he's never heard of a walk in his life. He is NOT a leadoff hitter.

First off your wrong Crawford and his OBP is .345, thats good for #46th overall in the AL and 99th in MLB, and hes only 25 years old. He would also be 10th overall if he was leading off in the AL.

Leadoff men OBP%
Johnson - .394
Matthews - .379
Sizemore - .377
Ichiro - .367
Kendal - .366
Damon - .364
DeJesus - .362
Castillo - .355
Roberts - .354
Crawford - .345
Baldelli - .340
Granderson - .338
Podsednik - .332
Figgins - .331
Crisp - .317

Already in his career he has more hits than Pete Rose & Tony Gywnn at their respective ages. Carl would be better suited for the 3 hole much like Grady Sizemore on most teams, but just like with the tribe his talents would be put to better use in the leadoff spot, he would gets the most ABs during a game, He also would have the best 3-4-5 hitters in the game hitting behind him, Iguchi who was great batting behind a leadoff hitter when he get on in '05 (scott obviously hasn't this year) could move him over and the 3-4-5 could bring him in, or if we aquire the likes of Michael Young he himself could do it, hes going to have over 200 hits again.

For a comparison with some of the elite.

Pete Rose Cincinnati Reds
Age Year AB H BA SB/CS
22 1963 625 170 .273 13/15
23 1964 516 139 .269 4/10
24 1965 670 209 .312 8/3

518 hits

DJ's personal favorite
Tony Gwynn San Diego Padres
Age Year AB H BA SB/CS
24 1984 606 213 .351 33/18
25 1985 622 197 .317 14/11
26 1986 644 211 .329 37/9

621 hits

Carl Crawford Tampa Bay Devil Rays
Age Year AB H BA SB/CS
22 2003 630 177 .281 55/10
23 2004 626 185 .296 59/15
24 2005 644 194 .301 46/8

556 hits


This team needs to get younger. Trade Freddy, especially if he finishes strong and ups his trade value. I guarantee Brandon would put up better/comparable numbers to Garcia for 1/8th of the price.

KW needs to build around Javy, Jon, and Brandon. We can't waste 10 million a year on mediocre starting pitching.

Like i said Crawford is only 25. I agree the only thing Garcia is doing right now is raising his trade value, and McCarthy could definatly put up complaralbe numbers for litterally 1/26th the price.

For people that don't feel Javy has been good or that he is weak, they're very wrong he was great in the begining of the year and for much of the second half almost has good ad Jon.

Javier Vazquez, since 8/5(thats well over a month)

9 GS 58 IP 46 H 20 ER 6 HR 17 BB 44 K, 3.10 ERA, 1.09 WHIP

White Sox record in those starts - 2-7, the offense the second half has let Javy down, Scott Podsednik and Juan Uribe have compounded this matter.

Beautox
09-20-2006, 11:40 AM
Marmol isn't going anywhere - the Cubs realize what thay have in him and to rebuild they'll need guys like him.

Geez, I have to sit through a horrible season by my favorite Sox player and then he gets traded to the stinkin Cubs? Go ahead, rip my heart out while you're at it.

Besides, Pods won't be traded. If the Sox get rid of him this offseason (I'm holding out some hope to the contrary despite all the press leaks) they'll just not offer him arbitration in December, making him a free agent.

If Pods (one year on - one year off) pattern is so obvious, than why are the Sox (fans too) in such a hurry to get rid of him? I still think that an offseason completely off from baseball or surgeries, and he'll be at least closer to his early 2005 self with a full spring training. I just hope another team (or a rival) doesn't end up with that.

Marmol is going somewhere maybe not the south side but he is going somewhere, and if not Marmol from the cubs then someone similar to him possibly from the giants or rockies organization. If the cubs truly knew what they had in their organization they never would've given the following away for one year of Juan Pierre: Sergio Mitre, Ricky Nolasco & Renyel Pinto, that is a ton of talent for a player coming off a maso menos year(.276avg,.326OBP,.354SLG 57SB/17CS), Scott still has two years in ARB we will get some midlevel spec/s for him. The white sox will not let Scott Posednik walk for free, he will be traded because we have 2 in house opitions(Sweeney + Fields) along with possibly pursuing Crawford, Melky Caberera and Crisp in trade, and a few select OF FAs: Jeff DaVanon, Frank Catalanotto, Dave Roberts. This maybe true of Scott and it may not. Scott has gotten older and has always been horrid in LF, we have better opitions its time to cut ties. Remember Pitching + Defense = Championship?

southside rocks
09-20-2006, 11:54 AM
I'd just like to point out that McCarthy has been a hell of a lot more successful than Black Jack was when he first came up. McDowell got pretty well rocked, then sent down to AAA where he was not impressive, then struggled for a couple months before junking his slider and turning into a hell of a pitcher. It's a little early to give up on McCarthy if you ask me.

I don't think that McCarthy's being given up on ... I read it just as Ozzie saying that Brandon can't assume he's in the starting five next year. Fair enough. The guy's ERA is something like 19.00 in recent games, and all the announcers -- and Bill Melton, too -- keep saying that his changeup has disappeared. He will need to show some improvement in order to get a starter job in '07.

I think it's interesting that Ozzie's quoting the Jack McDowell comments. I happen to think that Black Jack makes a lot of sense on this, although I know there are other schools of thought about it. But I don't agree that the mind-set is necessarily different for a reliever than it is for a starter. For a closer, sure -- coming into a close game in the 9th inning and being expected to hold a lead.

Relievers, particularly long relievers as McCarthy has been, are not under that pressure, generally. They do have more room to work.

Brandon also needs to quit feeding his gopher. The homeruns are killing him. Do we really want another starter serving up first-inning meatballs a la Mark Buehrle?

KyWhiSoxFan
09-20-2006, 01:25 PM
I'm pretty sure a Left Handed reliever from the twins struggled out of the pen, but once into the rotation went on to win the CY, now I'm not saying McCarthy is the next Santana, but i will say he has shown flashes of brilliance, and there is a reason why KW hasn't given him or BA away, there is also a reason why KW is mad at Ozzie and the way he has mishandled both of them this season putting each in a position to fail.

That's why the first guy out the door this off season will be Mackowiak. He was played out of position all year and allowed to screw up the center field position. He needs to be taken out of the equation entirely.

Lip Man 1
09-20-2006, 01:35 PM
Ky:

Mack wasn't supposed to play center field in the first place. Remember when he was signed both Kenny and Ozzie said he was going to be a back up corner outfielder and a 3rd baseman.

Mack has taken one for the team without bitching.

In my book he stays because he's a very good role player off the bench...just not in center where he shouldn't have been in the first place.

Lip

southside rocks
09-20-2006, 01:54 PM
Ky:

Mack wasn't supposed to play center field in the first place. Remember when he was signed both Kenny and Ozzie said he was going to be a back up corner outfielder and a 3rd baseman.

Mack has taken one for the team without bitching.

In my book he stays because he's a very good role player off the bench...just not in center where he shouldn't have been in the first place.

Lip

Definitely! Mack is a great bench player and from what I know, he has a terrific attitude and helps the team any way he can. He and Ross Gload and Pablo Ozuna and Alex Cintron should all stay!

Craig Grebeck
09-20-2006, 02:01 PM
They don't get more mediocre than Javy, and for right about that price too.
He's had two awful months and for the rest of the time he has been solid. Keep him, Jon, Brandon, and one of Mark/Jose.

Hitmen77
09-20-2006, 02:30 PM
He's had two awful months and for the rest of the time he has been solid. Keep him, Jon, Brandon, and one of Mark/Jose.

That's 4 starters. Are you saying we should keep Freddy? Or trade him and look for a FA to take the 5th starter spot?

JB98
09-20-2006, 02:45 PM
Mark Mulder, FA. Sign him to a Frank Thomas, incentives-based deal, along with Jose Guillen for LF.

Mulder is DONE. And I mean DONE. I wouldn't take a chance on him if he offered to play for free.

Jose Guillen? Cancer. Not a team player. We have enough right-handed power with PK, Dye and Crede.

JB98
09-20-2006, 02:47 PM
He's had two awful months and for the rest of the time he has been solid. Keep him, Jon, Brandon, and one of Mark/Jose.

If we bring back Vazquez, he'll have another awful two-month stretch again next year. Then, he'll put together a six-week-long hot streak to make people fall in love with him again. This is what he does every year. Don't be fooled. He's a tease.

batmanZoSo
09-20-2006, 02:50 PM
He's had two awful months and for the rest of the time he has been solid. Keep him, Jon, Brandon, and one of Mark/Jose.

To say he's been solid the rest of the time is a stretch, but even if it was true, you still have two awful months. He officially is what he is. This must be how he always arrives at medicore numbers. At least Freddy wins and this is his maybe his worst year yet, and probably due largely to being overweight. And on top of that he's given up two hits in his last 17 innings.

I know which is more likely to be gone realistically, but on their respective merits, Freddy is the guy you keep.

Craig Grebeck
09-20-2006, 03:04 PM
To say he's been solid the rest of the time is a stretch.
:?:
ERA Month by Month
April 3.67
May 3.99
June 7.50
July 6.82
August 3.41
September 2.57

Pretty damn solid if you ask me.

What about Freddy?

April 5.86
May 3.70
June 4.81
July 5.52
August 5.72
September 2.15

Freddy winning games is worthless. Wins for a pitcher are absolutely meaningless.

KW is too smart to trade our best prospect for nothing.

caulfield12
09-20-2006, 03:48 PM
To say he's been solid the rest of the time is a stretch, but even if it was true, you still have two awful months. He officially is what he is. This must be how he always arrives at medicore numbers. At least Freddy wins and this is his maybe his worst year yet, and probably due largely to being overweight. And on top of that he's given up two hits in his last 17 innings.

I know which is more likely to be gone realistically, but on their respective merits, Freddy is the guy you keep.

Since they're both going to make about the same next year (+/- $500,000), I would assume it comes down to which player OG wants to keep AND which one will get a player in return to help address 1) LF 2) SS 3) middle relief.

I'm sure KW has a "hit list" on his 3-5 year plan (like Thornton, Loiaza, Contreras, Cintron, Mackowiak) and the names on the board will dictate which one of those guys is gone. I prefer to keep Vazquez, that's just me. I think he has come up bigger in the clutch than Garcia. Sure, last night was nice and last WED even more important, but we needed him the last six weeks against the "average" teams like the Royals. He has two losses to them alone where he didn't give us even quality starts...

spiffie
09-20-2006, 03:51 PM
:?:
ERA Month by Month
April 3.67
May 3.99
June 7.50
July 6.82
August 3.41
September 2.57

Pretty damn solid if you ask me.

The ERA for Javy is somewhat misleading for August in that Ozzie was pretty much yanking him as soon as anything happened in the fifth or sixth inning. Yeah, his ERA is low, but at the expense of totally torching the bullpen.

Personally, I'd be more inclined to keep Freddy, simply because I would trust him far more than Vazquez if we make the postseason next year.

Tekijawa
09-20-2006, 03:52 PM
Could McCarthy be in the same 'doghouse' as Anderson?

From what I've heard YES! The Dog House is called Duffy's, it's at Lincoln and Diversey and they are there often.

Sox-o-matic
09-21-2006, 02:08 AM
That's a great quote right there. Very true.

Either you can do the job, or you can't.

I doubt the Sox will put all of their eggs in his basket if they have any doubt whatsoever.

I agree 100%.

As a pitcher you have a job to do in getting outs. If you can't get outs you are not an effective pitcher, no matter what role you are in.

For those who say Ozzie was setting Brandon up to fail, there have been many chances for McCarthy to come in to a game with no one on base and do his work. Most of the time he hasn't been able to get outs.

I've said this a lot this season and I'll say it again: McCarthy has more working against him as far as being a decent ML starter than anyone in our 5 man rotation. He has a slow, straight fastball that he has to spot, he often loses total confidence in his change up, and when he can't throw his curve for strikes he essentially becomes a one pitch pitcher. People love him because he isn't making any money, but so what? I think if KW has any opportunity to package him with someone else and land a solid pitcher he should do it while Brandon still has some value.

jabrch
09-21-2006, 08:41 AM
The trendy thing to do, bash Brandon, is completely pointless. I'm not going to begin to list all of the starters who were forced to begin out of the pen, weren't totally effective, and then were better once they got to start full time. On second thought, I'll just name one - Johan Santana.

This is just more of the Dark Clouds looking for something else to bitch about. It's amazing how little some people really seem to know about baseball. McCarthy has a lot of skill. He's been an effective starter at every level. No reason not to believe he can do it here.

INSox56
09-21-2006, 11:31 AM
The ERA for Javy is somewhat misleading for August in that Ozzie was pretty much yanking him as soon as anything happened in the fifth or sixth inning. Yeah, his ERA is low, but at the expense of totally torching the bullpen.

Personally, I'd be more inclined to keep Freddy, simply because I would trust him far more than Vazquez if we make the postseason next year.

Would you also like to have Freddy's 95% success rate against for SBs? Clutch at times or not...new splitter or not. If a guy gets on base who's even remotely faster than Konerko, he's almost guaranteed second and/or third base. That's disgusting to watch for me, personally.