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Lip Man 1
09-18-2006, 11:49 PM
Apparently Kenny is ending his month long (or so) silence on the season. Latest story from Mark Gonzales of the Tribune:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060918soxbrite,1,2555085.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

Frontman
09-19-2006, 12:19 AM
So at least Hawk isn't going to loose his job for saying what we've all thought and known this past month.

I'd just like to see this team give us a sign that winning still matters.

:(:

Front

TheOldRoman
09-19-2006, 12:37 AM
So at least Hawk isn't going to loose his job for saying what we've all thought and known this past month.

I'd just like to see this team give us a sign that winning still matters.

:(:

Front
As some say on this board, listen to Hawk to find out what Reinsdorf is thinking. Of course he isn't happy with the crap these players put out this year. I'm sure Reinsy is calling for heads right about now.

100 Year Itch
09-19-2006, 12:40 AM
As some say on this board, listen to Hawk to find out what Reinsdorf is thinking. Of course he isn't happy with the crap these players put out this year. I'm sure Reinsy is calling for heads right about now.

With 40-plus sell outs this year, at season's end I think Reinsdorf will be lighting up a victory cigar once again. However, it won't be on camera in front of a national audience; no, this time it will be behind closed doors, in a stuffy boardroom.

100 Year Itch
09-19-2006, 12:50 AM
Apparently Kenny is ending his month long (or so) silence on the season. Latest story from Mark Gonzales of the Tribune:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060918soxbrite,1,2555085.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

This quote of Williams seems to run contrary to the notion that big changes are coming in 2007.

"If it turns out we're all going home in October, I'll still stand by them and I'll still tell you 20 years from now how much I believed in the club of 2006," Williams said.
If he's willing to "stick to his guns" twenty years from now, what are the chances he is going to dramatically shift the make-up of this team in one year?

Of course it could also just be "politically-correct" rhetoric.

TheOldRoman
09-19-2006, 01:03 AM
With 40-plus sell outs this year, at season's end I think Reinsdorf will be lighting up a victory cigar once again. However, it won't be on camera in front of a national audience; no, this time it will be behind closed doors, in a stuffy boardroom.
Reinsy is smarter than you give him credit for. First of all, he is a very big fan of the game, and nobody could be happy watching the crap we put out there in the second half.
I'm sure he is happy about the 40 sellouts, but he is upset because the Sox blew a huge opportunity. This season was a failure, and many fans will be upset. The season ticket base is going to take a big hit (partially because so many bought ST just to get playoff tix). The more the Sox fail, the less Reinsdorf makes next year. A 90 win season isn't all that bad, but to the fairweather fan, if you didn't make the playoffs, you didn't do ****.
Maybe one of the most important things is that the Sox had the opportunity to build a dynasty, win handful of titles in a few years, and completely bury the Cubs in this city. This year's failure will cost the Sox a lost more than you think. Of course they CAN make up for it by winning championships in 2007-2009 (like the Yankees did after losing in 96), but we will see. You can't deny the ground lost with the season ending like this.

TheOldRoman
09-19-2006, 01:08 AM
This quote of Williams seems to run contrary to the notion that big changes are coming in 2007.


If he's willing to "stick to his guns" twenty years from now, what are the chances he is going to dramatically shift the make-up of this team in one year?

Of course it could also just be "politically-correct" rhetoric.
I don't take it like that. KW is right. He assembled the best team in baseball. There is no reason whatsoever for them to underachieve so much. He did his job, he made the team better. They failed. He is saying that this is the best team in baseball, and there are no excuses for them not winning it all again, let alone not making the playoffs. I think this shows that heads will roll. The players failed, and they will be replaced.

soltrain21
09-19-2006, 01:40 AM
I believed in the club of 2006, too. Boy did I believe.

chisoxmike
09-19-2006, 01:43 AM
Like KW, I believed in this club so much, even last week I thought they could overcome everything. I will be telling everybody about the heartbreak of '06 for years to come.

DeadMoney
09-19-2006, 01:51 AM
I believed in what has turned out to be the 2:angry::angry:6 team as much as KW. In the end, it didn't work out. As for his comment about 20 years down the line...I just hope he doesn't have the same beliefs 4 months down the line.

voodoochile
09-19-2006, 02:03 AM
Reinsy is smarter than you give him credit for. First of all, he is a very big fan of the game, and nobody could be happy watching the crap we put out there in the second half.
I'm sure he is happy about the 40 sellouts, but he is upset because the Sox blew a huge opportunity. This season was a failure, and many fans will be upset. The season ticket base is going to take a big hit (partially because so many bought ST just to get playoff tix). The more the Sox fail, the less Reinsdorf makes next year. A 90 win season isn't all that bad, but to the fairweather fan, if you didn't make the playoffs, you didn't do ****.
Maybe one of the most important things is that the Sox had the opportunity to build a dynasty, win handful of titles in a few years, and completely bury the Cubs in this city. This year's failure will cost the Sox a lost more than you think. Of course they CAN make up for it by winning championships in 2007-2009 (like the Yankees did after losing in 96), but we will see. You can't deny the ground lost with the season ending like this.

I completely disagree. This team will still be contenders next season. No fire sale is coming, the Sox will be back and as strong or stronger than this season next year. Fans will see it and they will pay for the privilege of watching it live. I am sure many lifelong fans couldn't get tickets this year because of the huge influx of bandwagon jumpers. If some of the bandwagoners jump, the lifers will snap up the extras. They might not quite have as many ST holders, but to think it will drop an insane amount seems improbable.

A WS championship, a 90 win season and a reload for next year... The fans will be coming in droves until the Sox fail to look like pennant contenders to start the season.

MrX
09-19-2006, 02:46 AM
Wanting to keep the season ticket base high is the exact reason why there will be major changes this offseason.

StillMissOzzie
09-19-2006, 03:03 AM
Reinsy is smarter than you give him credit for. ... The season ticket base is going to take a big hit (partially because so many bought ST just to get playoff tix).

I completely disagree... I am sure many lifelong fans couldn't get tickets this year because of the huge influx of bandwagon jumpers. If some of the bandwagoners jump, the lifers will snap up the extras.

There is still a waiting list for season ticket holders. Unless we learn that they all bailed after the first batch of well-heeled bandwagon jumper-onners also take a hike, I gotta agree with voodoo on this one.

SMO
:gulp:
Gotta love the multi-quote!

BainesHOF
09-19-2006, 03:10 AM
I believed in this team too, but a 162-game schedule doesn't lie. Third place for this team is a complete failure. This team wasn't good enough and won't be good enough in 2007 unless significant changes are made. Performance and attitude in 2006 need to be reviewed.

I can't say I was ever a big fan of Rowand's importance to 2005, but I'm re-evaluating that opinion. I'm really disappointed at our lack of effort and all of the ongoing mental mistakes this season.

TheOldRoman
09-19-2006, 03:14 AM
I completely disagree. This team will still be contenders next season. No fire sale is coming, the Sox will be back and as strong or stronger than this season next year. Fans will see it and they will pay for the privilege of watching it live. I am sure many lifelong fans couldn't get tickets this year because of the huge influx of bandwagon jumpers. If some of the bandwagoners jump, the lifers will snap up the extras. They might not quite have as many ST holders, but to think it will drop an insane amount seems improbable.

A WS championship, a 90 win season and a reload for next year... The fans will be coming in droves until the Sox fail to look like pennant contenders to start the season.
Well, total ticket sales depends a lot on how the Sox do next year, but I am sure there will be a significant drop in season tickets, but that can be made up for in single game tickets if the Sox do well. It will still be much higher than in 05, but I think the 06 ST base was artificially inflated because of the championship. Many people bought season tickets just so they could get playoff tickets for last year. Many of the season ticket holders are brokers, which is why so many Sox tickets ended up on Ebay this year. That likely won't happen again.
I also think there were a lot of people who probably couldn't (or shouldn't) afford it, but got the ST/playoff tickets just because they figured it was a once in a lifetime chance. People who, in the past, had gone to 5-10 games a year, decided to get more because of the chance to see the world series. I myself never had the money to get a season ticket plan before this year (and I bought the 27 game plan in January, so I didn't get playoff tickets for last year). After not getting to see a world champion again, I think many of the 27-game people will go back down to their normal 5-10. Then again, there are new fans to take their place. We shall see. Either way, the Sox definitely blew a big opportunity this year.

HerzogVon
09-19-2006, 07:20 AM
>>Harrelson stood firm in his comments before Monday's game and made himself available on the field during batting practice.

But sluggers Paul Konerko and Jim Thome said they had only second-hand knowledge of Harrelson's comments.

"It's a free country," Konerko said. "Everybody's entitled to their opinions. I'm not going to say he's wrong or right. You're programmed to play. Sometimes you execute, sometimes you don't. That's the way I look at it."<<

This is troubling. Once again, the "evil axis" makes itself felt. ( OK, that's a bit hyperbolic. ) Still, the fact remains that with the trade of Rowand along with the acquisition of Thome, the center of gravity on this team shifted from the Stooges ( AJ, Crede and Rowand ), to Paulie and Big Jim. If Kenny allows this move towards the sluggers to remain unchecked, more disappointment is sure to follow in 2007.

Putting Thome aside for the moment, Paulie needs to be convinced that it's not he who runs this team. I hope for everone's sake that Kenny and Ozzie come to realize this as well.

soxfanatlanta
09-19-2006, 08:12 AM
"It's a free country," Konerko said. "Everybody's entitled to their opinions. I'm not going to say he's wrong or right. You're programmed to play. Sometimes you execute, sometimes you don't. That's the way I look at it."


That comment concerns me; he is either being defensive about the team's poor play, or he has no fire in his belly. Hopefully, it's option A. They need to show someting, anything resembeling a desire to win with the remaining games.

Parrothead
09-19-2006, 08:26 AM
>>Harrelson stood firm in his comments before Monday's game and made himself available on the field during batting practice.

But sluggers Paul Konerko and Jim Thome said they had only second-hand knowledge of Harrelson's comments.

"It's a free country," Konerko said. "Everybody's entitled to their opinions. I'm not going to say he's wrong or right. You're programmed to play. Sometimes you execute, sometimes you don't. That's the way I look at it."<<

This is troubling. Once again, the "evil axis" makes itself felt. ( OK, that's a bit hyperbolic. ) Still, the fact remains that with the trade of Rowand along with the acquisition of Thome, the center of gravity on this team shifted from the Stooges ( AJ, Crede and Rowand ), to Paulie and Big Jim. If Kenny allows this move towards the sluggers to remain unchecked, more disappointment is sure to follow in 2007.

Putting Thome aside for the moment, Paulie needs to be convinced that it's not he who runs this team. I hope for everone's sake that Kenny and Ozzie come to realize this as well.

The trading of Rowand is not why this team did not perform well it is due the the pitching. They sucked this year.

CLR01
09-19-2006, 09:18 AM
I can't say I was ever a big fan of Rowand's importance to 2005, but I'm re-evaluating that opinion.


Evaluate it all you want but Rowand is not the missing piece for he White Sox this year or any year for that matter. If Rowand and what he brings to the team is so great why are the Phillies struggling to get into the playoffs in the weak NL? Why will they finish the year with a worse record than the pre-Rowand 2005 campaign?

And if the team, or some players, did spend the year mourning the loss of the great Aaron Rowand, trade them all ASAP.

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 09:40 AM
Evaluate it all you want but Rowand is not the missing piece for he White Sox this year or any year for that matter. If Rowand and what he brings to the team is so great why are the Phillies struggling to get into the playoffs in the weak NL? Why will they finish the year with a worse record than the pre-Rowand 2005 campaign?

And if the team, or some players, did spend the year mourning the loss of the great Aaron Rowand trade them all ASAP.

Rowand can't pitch either.

MadetoOrta
09-19-2006, 09:49 AM
Reinsy is smarter than you give him credit for. First of all, he is a very big fan of the game, and nobody could be happy watching the crap we put out there in the second half.
I'm sure he is happy about the 40 sellouts, but he is upset because the Sox blew a huge opportunity. This season was a failure, and many fans will be upset. The season ticket base is going to take a big hit (partially because so many bought ST just to get playoff tix). The more the Sox fail, the less Reinsdorf makes next year. A 90 win season isn't all that bad, but to the fairweather fan, if you didn't make the playoffs, you didn't do ****.
Maybe one of the most important things is that the Sox had the opportunity to build a dynasty, win handful of titles in a few years, and completely bury the Cubs in this city. This year's failure will cost the Sox a lost more than you think. Of course they CAN make up for it by winning championships in 2007-2009 (like the Yankees did after losing in 96), but we will see. You can't deny the ground lost with the season ending like this.

That is right on. I'm more disappointed than angry. JR isn't happy even with the 40 sellouts. Winning it again or at least battling the Yankees in a dramatic ALCS would have been huge. This is our chance to take over this town. The window [no matter what happens the final 11 games this year] is not closed. It's just very disappointing. Yeah it's nice to say, "when exactly did you last win the World Series?" Opportunity lost. 2007 should be very interesting.

By the way, Pat Boyle and Bill Melton sure implied that guys on this team are playing hurt. We'll find out when it's over. I think Burls is hurting as is Thome.

salty99
09-19-2006, 09:55 AM
If it's true that they are hurt it's time to shut them down and let them heal up properly.

southside rocks
09-19-2006, 10:51 AM
This quote of Williams seems to run contrary to the notion that big changes are coming in 2007.


If he's willing to "stick to his guns" twenty years from now, what are the chances he is going to dramatically shift the make-up of this team in one year?

Of course it could also just be "politically-correct" rhetoric.

Nah, I don't see that as mutually exclusive.

I get the sense that Williams is sorely disappointed with this team. He loves the team for what it can do, and it's let him down by not doing that. Therefore, he absolutely will, IMO, dismantle it and build another team.

But he will never regret having put together this '06 team, is what he's saying.

This team has let down just about everyone, IMO, from the managment to the fans to each other. I never expected this... :(:

viagracat
09-19-2006, 11:06 AM
Nah, I don't see that as mutually exclusive.

I get the sense that Williams is sorely disappointed with this team. He loves the team for what it can do, and it's let him down by not doing that. Therefore, he absolutely will, IMO, dismantle it and build another team.

But he will never regret having put together this '06 team, is what he's saying.

This team has let down just about everyone, IMO, from the managment to the fans to each other. I never expected this... :(:

I don't think the team will be "dismantled", although it certainly will be tweaked, at least. As Williams said and I believe, he assembled a hell of a team this year from a talent standpoint. You're not going to dismantle a team with this much talent. I'm sure Pods will be gone and the bullpen needs a revamp, but you'll see the core back next year.

Maybe next year they will play as if they're NOT the world championships. I think you play harder when you have something to prove. :smile:

Either way, I'm there. Go Sox!

voodoochile
09-19-2006, 11:15 AM
If it's true that they are hurt it's time to shut them down and let them heal up properly.

13 days to go and still a chance is no time to quit. The extra two weeks won't make the difference on next season.

viagracat
09-19-2006, 11:19 AM
13 days to go and still a chance is no time to quit. The extra two weeks won't make the difference on next season.

Right. Play as if you have nothing to lose, because you don't. They're essentially in a playoff series down 3-0 right now.

100 Year Itch
09-19-2006, 11:20 AM
Nah, I don't see that as mutually exclusive.

I get the sense that Williams is sorely disappointed with this team. He loves the team for what it can do, and it's let him down by not doing that. Therefore, he absolutely will, IMO, dismantle it and build another team.

But he will never regret having put together this '06 team, is what he's saying.

This team has let down just about everyone, IMO, from the managment to the fans to each other. I never expected this... :(:

Obviously it is pointless to parse words, but, hey, that's all there is left to do I guess. :(:

He does say "I'll still stand by them" which seems to imply, uh, he'll stand by them. I interpret that as saying he is confident in the general construct of the team and remains convinced that this crew can ultimately do what it was assembled to do.

The more I think about it, the more I begin to believe that the intangible of chemistry was the missing element this year. Perhaps an additional offseason -- without tweaking anything more than peripheral components -- will allow this team to gel and discover a suitable identity.

This year the team didn't know if it was a beat'em with slugging or a beat'em with lock-down pitching team. Hence all the disparate parts were moving in opposite directions.

They just never did recover from that post ASB malaise.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/gifs/alcentralwins.gif

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 11:20 AM
I don't think the team will be "dismantled", although it certainly will be tweaked, at least. As Williams said and I believe, he assembled a hell of a team this year from a talent standpoint. You're not going to dismantle a team with this much talent. I'm sure Pods will be gone and the bullpen needs a revamp, but you'll see the core back next year.

Maybe next year they will play as if they're NOT the world championships. I think you play harder when you have something to prove. :smile:

Either way, I'm there. Go Sox!

They also have so many guys locked up for next year (counting team options):

- Buehrle
- Contreras
- Dye
- Garland
- Hermanson
- Iguchi
- Konerko
- Mackowiak
- Pierzynski
- Thome
- Uribe
- Vazquez

This doesn't even count the young guns like Anderson, Crede, Gload, Jenks, McCarthy, Thornton, etc.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-19-2006, 11:22 AM
I can't say I was ever a big fan of Rowand's importance to 2005, but I'm re-evaluating that opinion. I'm really disappointed at our lack of effort and all of the ongoing mental mistakes this season.

To me, the biggest difference in this team was the attitude. Last year they took nothing for granted, this year they seemed to be waiting around for the 3-run HR. As far as I can tell, the cause for the change was the absence of Rowand and the presence of Thome. I hated that trade from the beginning and I hate it even more now. I am glad to see Frank putting up big numbers and leading his team to the offseason; I just hope KW can get over his arrogance and realize he made a big mistake by letting the best hitter in franchise history go to another team.

This team sure looked good on paper, but I had (mistakenly) hoped that KW learned last year that you don't win championships based on the names on the opening day roster. It is clear now how important chemistry (and luck) were in 2005.

ma-gaga
09-19-2006, 11:28 AM
No fire sale is coming
...
A WS championship, a 90 win season and a reload for next year...

The current payroll is around $100mm. Do you think it will go up? Stay the same?? Or drop a bit??

I don't know. Typically, once you set a payroll expectation, you tend to stick with that number unless something drastically changes. So, I'm guessing that's the plan, but I really don't know...

Flight #24
09-19-2006, 11:33 AM
The current payroll is around $100mm. Do you think it will go up? Stay the same?? Or drop a bit??

I don't know. Typically, once you set a payroll expectation, you tend to stick with that number unless something drastically changes. So, I'm guessing that's the plan, but I really don't know...

Couple of points to remember:
1) Yes, the ST base was a bit artificially inflated this year, but they smartly booked the "apply any postseason tix refund to '07 tix" revenues. Yes, some may actually get refunds, but I'd bet the majority keep the tix.

2) While this team was disappointing, they'll be talked about as a contender next year absent a highly unlikely rebuilding. So there'll be some local buzz, which combined with the Cubs continuing to suck will drive demand.

I'd expect the payroll to remain relatively flat, or possibly inch a bit higher. The key to how they can retool will be the abiltiy to deal one of the expensive SPs and reallocate that $$$. I'm not convinced that it won't require a Lee-style salary dump, but maybe they can work a good deal ala the Vazquez one. I'd a solid reliever, a decent swingman and a hot prospect for Freddy and cash in a heartbeat.

voodoochile
09-19-2006, 11:40 AM
The current payroll is around $100mm. Do you think it will go up? Stay the same?? Or drop a bit??

I don't know. Typically, once you set a payroll expectation, you tend to stick with that number unless something drastically changes. So, I'm guessing that's the plan, but I really don't know...

It will stay in that area, IMO. The Sox definitely made money this season and if they cut it drastically then they will see a drop in sales. They don't want that. Any effort at reloading and improving the trouble areas will cause the fans to look at the team as trying to improve and honestly for all the griping about this being a bad season, the Sox are going to finish a few games at worst from making the playoffs, so it won't take much to put them over the hump and the fans will recognize the effort and get excited for next year.

Now it is painful, but by February hope will spring up as it does every year at that time for teams with a chance to be successful.

voodoochile
09-19-2006, 11:44 AM
Couple of points to remember:
1) Yes, the ST base was a bit artificially inflated this year, but they smartly booked the "apply any postseason tix refund to '07 tix" revenues. Yes, some may actually get refunds, but I'd bet the majority keep the tix.

2) While this team was disappointing, they'll be talked about as a contender next year absent a highly unlikely rebuilding. So there'll be some local buzz, which combined with the Cubs continuing to suck will drive demand.

I'd expect the payroll to remain relatively flat, or possibly inch a bit higher. The key to how they can retool will be the abiltiy to deal one of the expensive SPs and reallocate that $$$. I'm not convinced that it won't require a Lee-style salary dump, but maybe they can work a good deal ala the Vazquez one. I'd a solid reliever, a decent swingman and a hot prospect for Freddy and cash in a heartbeat.

Guys like Uribe, Pods and Garcia will bring something in trade. Sox fans may not be happy with them, but they have good enough numbers to warrant getting something back. Equal value? I don't know, but it will allow them to free up some money.

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 11:52 AM
I'd expect the payroll to remain relatively flat, or possibly inch a bit higher. The key to how they can retool will be the abiltiy to deal one of the expensive SPs and reallocate that $$$. I'm not convinced that it won't require a Lee-style salary dump, but maybe they can work a good deal ala the Vazquez one. I'd a solid reliever, a decent swingman and a hot prospect for Freddy and cash in a heartbeat.

I'm thinking it will inch up. Hell, payroll is already at $83 million for next season and that counts buyouts of the Buehrle, Dye, Hermanson and Iguchi contracts rather than picking up the options. Assuming they pick up Buehrle, Dye and Iguchi options, that's nearly $16 million more added to the payroll bringing the total up to $99 million. Throw in some bullpen help and we're easily talking about a payroll over $100 million.

All this assumes, of course, that a big trade doesn't go down. Even if one does, I still believe the payroll will be over $100 million next season.

Flight #24
09-19-2006, 12:00 PM
Guys like Uribe, Pods and Garcia will bring something in trade. Sox fans may not be happy with them, but they have good enough numbers to warrant getting something back. Equal value? I don't know, but it will allow them to free up some money.

I'm not 100% convinced of that. Pods has solid speed, but that's about it. And his SB% isn't great. There's a whole set of GMs who simply won't touch him because he doesn't put up solid OBP or SLG (the Beanie babies). And he's arb eligible which will likely inch his salary up. Uribe has a decent sized contract, and is coming off of a poor offensive year (power, yes - but bad everything else), and his defensive rep has taken a hit as well. Garcia's coming around, but still has a down year, reduced velocity, and big $$$ (albiet for just a year).

Someone will want them, but it'll take at least a partial salary dump (or taking on someone else's "tainted" salary) IMO. I'd be absolutely thrilled with a Garcia + Pods/Uribe for Vizquel deal just for solidifying SS for a year or 2 and freeing up cash. The various "Young+Prospect for Uribe+Freddy" trades are pipedreams, IMO.

viagracat
09-19-2006, 12:07 PM
It will stay in that area, IMO. The Sox definitely made money this season and if they cut it drastically then they will see a drop in sales. They don't want that. Any effort at reloading and improving the trouble areas will cause the fans to look at the team as trying to improve and honestly for all the griping about this being a bad season, the Sox are going to finish a few games at worst from making the playoffs, so it won't take much to put them over the hump and the fans will recognize the effort and get excited for next year.

Now it is painful, but by February hope will spring up as it does every year at that time for teams with a chance to be successful.

It was proved this year that an improved product will bring in a bigger gate. Once upon a time we weren't so sure about that in the case of the White Sox. But now that myth has hopefully been put to bed. Reinsdorf knows that.

soxfanatlanta
09-19-2006, 12:09 PM
Now it is painful, but by February hope will spring up as it does every year at that time for teams with a chance to be successful.

POTW

kobo
09-19-2006, 12:31 PM
I just hope KW can get over his arrogance and realize he made a big mistake by letting the best hitter in franchise history go to another team.


Do you really think that if Frank had stayed with the team he would be having the same type of year? Because I don't.

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 12:32 PM
Do you really think that if Frank had stayed with the team he would be having the same type of year? Because I don't.

Rowand is the real key to success. Curse you, Kenny!

:rolleyes:

0o0o0
09-19-2006, 12:34 PM
Rowand is the real key to success. Curse you, Kenny!

:rolleyes:

I hate all these hindsight observations. Fact is, going into this season, we all felt they had a chance to repeat.

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-19-2006, 12:54 PM
I hate all these hindsight observations. Fact is, going into this season, we all felt they had a chance to repeat.

It's not just hindsight. I hated the Thome and Vazquez trades at the time they were made. The Thome trade because I don't think giant sluggers, who may or may not be naturally giants, help to build consistent offense. Thome reminds me a lot of McGwire, and hitting tons of home runs is not a team accomplishment. I hated the Vazquez trade because I thought then, and still do, that Vazquez is discarded garbage.

0o0o0
09-19-2006, 12:56 PM
It's not just hindsight. I hated the Thome and Vazquez trades at the time they were made. The Thome trade because I don't think giant sluggers, who may or may not be naturally giants, help to build consistent offense. Thome reminds me a lot of McGwire, and hitting tons of home runs is not a team accomplishment. I hated the Vazquez trade because I thought then, and still do, that Vazquez is discarded garbage.

Thomas is not a slugger?

Edit: #1,000!

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 01:56 PM
It's not just hindsight. I hated the Thome and Vazquez trades at the time they were made. The Thome trade because I don't think giant sluggers, who may or may not be naturally giants, help to build consistent offense. Thome reminds me a lot of McGwire, and hitting tons of home runs is not a team accomplishment. I hated the Vazquez trade because I thought then, and still do, that Vazquez is discarded garbage.

:rolleyes:

Thome is a guy that will slug the ball out of the park and has an insane OBP. You need a player like this on the team. This is a problem for you?

Beer Can Chicken
09-19-2006, 02:00 PM
I'm thinking it will inch up. Hell, payroll is already at $83 million for next season and that counts buyouts of the Buehrle, Dye, Hermanson and Iguchi contracts rather than picking up the options. Assuming they pick up Buehrle, Dye and Iguchi options, that's nearly $16 million more added to the payroll bringing the total up to $99 million. Throw in some bullpen help and we're easily talking about a payroll over $100 million.

All this assumes, of course, that a big trade doesn't go down. Even if one does, I still believe the payroll will be over $100 million next season.

It better be over $100 million considering they have of plenty of interest free season ticket loans out there, mine included.

Frontman
09-19-2006, 02:01 PM
:rolleyes:

Thome is a guy that will slug the ball out of the park and has an insane OBP. You need a player like this on the team. This is a problem for you?

Yeah, that's obviously the problem. Less runs would be better, right?

Oh, its not like golf? You mean more is better?

Then give me Thome.

Front

RockyMtnSoxFan
09-19-2006, 02:04 PM
Thomas is not a slugger?

No, at least he wasn't in the past. He used to be a line drive hitter with power. It wasn't until McGwire and Sosa started the obsession with longballs that Frank started swinging for the fences.

0o0o0
09-19-2006, 02:07 PM
No, at least he wasn't in the past. He used to be a line drive hitter with power. It wasn't until McGwire and Sosa started the obsession with longballs that Frank started swinging for the fences.

So then why did you still want him on the team?

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 02:07 PM
No, at least he wasn't in the past. He used to be a line drive hitter with power. It wasn't until McGwire and Sosa started the obsession with longballs that Frank started swinging for the fences.

:?:

cheezheadsoxfan
09-19-2006, 02:12 PM
The trading of Rowand is not why this team did not perform well it is due the the pitching. They sucked this year.

Agreed. If the pitching had been there they could have found another stooge. Also, Ozzie's lineup tinkering couldn't have helped the chemstry much.

Scottzilla
09-19-2006, 02:13 PM
some people think that the runs batted in on the HRs dont exceed the lost runs do to slow base running, DPs and such.
I like thome and i think its cool hes from peoria and stuff but it seems like we just traded a big slow injured slugger for a big slow injured slugger. and I think KW tinkered too much.

Hitmen77
09-19-2006, 02:14 PM
Reinsy is smarter than you give him credit for. First of all, he is a very big fan of the game, and nobody could be happy watching the crap we put out there in the second half.
I'm sure he is happy about the 40 sellouts, but he is upset because the Sox blew a huge opportunity. This season was a failure, and many fans will be upset. The season ticket base is going to take a big hit (partially because so many bought ST just to get playoff tix). The more the Sox fail, the less Reinsdorf makes next year. A 90 win season isn't all that bad, but to the fairweather fan, if you didn't make the playoffs, you didn't do ****.

I disagree. There may be some minor dropoff, but you're still talking about a team that will win about 90 games this year and promises to be a top contender again next year. Also, I don't believe that the Cell was filled with only bandwagoners this year. The Sox did win over alot of new, permanent fans. With the Cubs on their way to another 95 loss season, the Sox are still by far the superior product in town.

Maybe one of the most important things is that the Sox had the opportunity to build a dynasty, win handful of titles in a few years, and completely bury the Cubs in this city. This year's failure will cost the Sox a lost more than you think. Of course they CAN make up for it by winning championships in 2007-2009 (like the Yankees did after losing in 96), but we will see. You can't deny the ground lost with the season ending like this.

I agree with you here - this really is a golden opportunity to bury the Cubs and the Sox have failed to totally capitalize on it. I wouldn't say they lost ground by any means. But they failed to gain as much ground as possible. Seeing how fortunes can turn around quickly (see Chicago from Oct. 2003 - Oct. 2005), I hate seeing the Sox squander a chance to really drive a stake through the heart of Cubdumb.

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 02:19 PM
I agree with you here - this really is a golden opportunity to bury the Cubs and the Sox have failed to totally capitalize on it. I wouldn't say they lost ground by any means. But they failed to gain as much ground as possible. Seeing how fortunes can turn around quickly (see Chicago from Oct. 2003 - Oct. 2005), I hate seeing the Sox squander a chance to really drive a stake through the heart of Cubdumb.

The Sox could still have a dynasty on their hands. Sure, it is looking more and more like they won't be heading to the playoffs this season but they could pull it together for next season. The Sox should end up with back-to-back 90 win seasons, something they haven't done in 40 years.

Lip Man 1
09-19-2006, 02:20 PM
That's why I felt it was so important just to get back to the post season in back to back years for the first time in franchise history. It would have really helped to 'take back' their own city.

I don't think the tickets sales will drop off all that much although if the team has another 'poor' (relatively speaking) season in 2007 it may drop in 2008. We'll see.

And Hitmen I'm still hopeful this team can actually get to 90 wins.

Lip

cheezheadsoxfan
09-19-2006, 02:20 PM
Do you really think that if Frank had stayed with the team he would be having the same type of year? Because I don't.
Nor do I. He had something to prove.

NoNeckEra
09-19-2006, 02:40 PM
It better be over $100 million considering they have of plenty of interest free season ticket loans out there, mine included.
Here's the problem: None of the money ST holders accrued for selling tix on the Sox Ticket Exchange site will have gone toward post-season tix, and therefore will be applied to '07 season tickets. So the ST base may remain strong, but actual revenue will be way down because of all the credits built up and unspent. This could make for a major cash flow difference, enough to lop a few million off the payroll.

kobo
09-19-2006, 03:00 PM
Here's the problem: None of the money ST holders accrued for selling tix on the Sox Ticket Exchange site will have gone toward post-season tix, and therefore will be applied to '07 season tickets. So the ST base may remain strong, but actual revenue will be way down because of all the credits built up and unspent. This could make for a major cash flow difference, enough to lop a few million off the payroll.
All the money that is left over from playoff tickets or selling tickets on ticket exchange goes to season tickets for next year. Whether they are credit or actual cash, that money is going towards tickets for next year and affects the revenue for next year. That money has no bearing on revenue for this year, and will not affect the cash flow. It's all going towards season tickets for next year, how could that not have a positive impact on the cash flow for next year?

NoNeckEra
09-19-2006, 03:05 PM
It's all going towards season tickets for next year, how could that not have a positive impact on the cash flow for next year?
Because it's not "cash", it's credit. As an example, I won't need to write the Sox a check at all for my '07 full ST package, due to "credit" I have in my acct. So collections will go down. Period.

Flight #24
09-19-2006, 03:20 PM
Because it's not "cash", it's credit. As an example, I won't need to write the Sox a check at all for my '07 full ST package, due to "credit" I have in my acct. So collections will go down. Period.

That depends on where they credit the postseason payments you already made and more importantly on what their revenue assumptions were when they set payroll at the beginning of the season.

If they based payroll on an assumption that included postseason revs, then you're right - they either fall short this year (and allocate the postseason payments where they belong - to next years ST sales), or next (reverse).

If they based payroll on the projected regular season ticket sales, then it's all good because those were booked, and the postseason becomes excess that can carry forward to '07.

My guess from history is that it's the latter. In general with JR, payroll has lagged attendance, so IMO they took last year's playoff revenues & this year's ticket sale projections and used it to boost this year's payroll. Now this year's postseason payments will be applied as part of the projections for next years ticket base revenues.

The Immigrant
09-19-2006, 03:43 PM
Because it's not "cash", it's credit. As an example, I won't need to write the Sox a check at all for my '07 full ST package, due to "credit" I have in my acct. So collections will go down. Period.

But they give you cash, which is just as good as money.

In all seriousness, this all counts as 2007 revenue - however it's booked.

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 03:45 PM
Because it's not "cash", it's credit. As an example, I won't need to write the Sox a check at all for my '07 full ST package, due to "credit" I have in my acct. So collections will go down. Period.

But its still hard dollars. You may not have to personally write a check for your tickets next season but all the people who bought your tickets during this season are the ones who actually paid for your 2007 tickets. You are more or less a middle-man. The Sox still get their money, whether it comes out of your pocket or someone else's.

:farmer

"Did someone say something about money?"

NoNeckEra
09-19-2006, 04:01 PM
But its still hard dollars. You may not have to personally write a check for your tickets next season but all the people who bought your tickets during this season are the ones who actually paid for your 2007 tickets. You are more or less a middle-man. The Sox still get their money, whether it comes out of your pocket or someone else's.

That's a good catch, but if we played all those playoff games, I WOULD be writing a check, and I'm not(unfortunately). So, you're right about the Sox getting their money, but they already have it(from the exchange sales), and they already counted on it.
I still say this is a financial blow, and an issue.

kobo
09-19-2006, 04:30 PM
So, you're right about the Sox getting their money, but they already have it(from the exchange sales), and they already counted on it.

That's a big assumption to make. I would think that any monies left over from the ticket exchange or unsused playoff tickets have not been counted for this season because those monies go to pay your invoice for Season Tickets for next year. Sure, they have the money, but if they already counted it then this means they would be taking a hit on the payments for next year's season tickets, and I just don't see it happening that way.

southside rocks
09-19-2006, 04:35 PM
Do you really think that if Frank had stayed with the team he would be having the same type of year? Because I don't.

No, definitely not.

What I think is motivating Frank this year, besides the enjoyment of rubbing the White Sox's noses in it? Money.

The A's gave Frank a base contract of $500,000. Everything else he gets this season is from hitting various incentives. And he's hit all of them, all season long.

This is the most Frank has played in several seasons. This is the healthiest he's been in a long time. And this is the first time that his paycheck, from week to week, has been directly tied to his on-field performance.

Frank's hungry. :D:

I wonder what kind of difference we'd see in some of the current Sox players if they had a $500K base and the rest in incentives.

I'm just saying. :rolleyes:

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 04:40 PM
That's a good catch, but if we played all those playoff games, I WOULD be writing a check, and I'm not(unfortunately). So, you're right about the Sox getting their money, but they already have it(from the exchange sales), and they already counted on it.
I still say this is a financial blow, and an issue.

Playoff dollars are a whole different ball of wax. MLB runs the show in that regard and money is distributed to all playoff teams as well as the 6 2nd place teams that didn't make the playoffs. That money cannot be counted toward the Sox payroll.

I still don't see how you feel this is a financial blow. If you sold nothing in the exchange, then you would write a check for the whole value of next year's tickets. If you sold enough that you don't have to pay at all for next year's tickets, it is as if the 30 people that bought tickets from you over the season wrote the check for you. Again, the Sox still get the money for the face value of the tickets whether it comes form you or other people. Just because you sell a ticket on exchange doesn't mean that value of money is taken away from the Sox.

Flight #24
09-19-2006, 04:45 PM
That's a good catch, but if we played all those playoff games, I WOULD be writing a check, and I'm not(unfortunately). So, you're right about the Sox getting their money, but they already have it(from the exchange sales), and they already counted on it.
I still say this is a financial blow, and an issue.

Again - the question is whether or not they counted on it before the season started. If they were smart and did not count on it, then they were operating at plan before receiving the postseason payments. Therefore, they can roll that to next year's budget as part of next years ticket sales without any issues. You're right in that they don't get the postseason revenues, which obviously is worse than getting them, but I don't think that means they fall short of projections for next year. IMO had they made the postseason, they'd simply have a surplus to use (and had that happened, IMO you'd see another payroll bump for '07).

If they were banking on postseason revenues to make budget this year, then they were taking on a lot more risk than I would expect given the history of the franchise.

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 04:47 PM
Again - the question is whether or not they counted on it before the season started. If they were smart and did not count on it, then they were operating at plan before receiving the postseason payments. Therefore, they can roll that to next year's budget as part of next years ticket sales without any issues. You're right in that they don't get the postseason revenues, which obviously is worse than getting them, but I don't think that means they fall short of projections for next year. IMO had they made the postseason, they'd simply have a surplus to use (and had that happened, IMO you'd see another payroll bump for '07).

If they were banking on postseason revenues to make budget this year, then they were taking on a lot more risk than I would expect given the history of the franchise.

No way in Hell the Sox were relying on postseason income to cover expenses. All that has happened here is that season ticket holders have paid for most of next year's tickets a couple months earlier than they would have anyway.

NoNeckEra
09-19-2006, 05:04 PM
No way in Hell the Sox were relying on postseason income to cover expenses. All that has happened here is that season ticket holders have paid for most of next year's tickets a couple months earlier than they would have anyway.
Let's put it this way, it didn't help that all those concessions and parking won't be coming their way from up to 11 games.

Playing 11 post-season home games would have been a financial boon, and might have actually allowed them to increase payroll.

Now, with nothing, I doubt the payroll is going up, and will probably suffer a small drop(less than $5 million).

As for the ticket exchange revenue question, your point that it comes either out of my pocket or that of tix exch buyers is well taken. I don't have inside info on how it shakes out. But like any other business, their hope was to collect what they could in '06, and try to match it or beat it in '07. There's a small price increase coming for '07, but it probably won't make up for the presumed decrease in interest in tickets(both primary and secondary sales).

champagne030
09-19-2006, 05:06 PM
That's a good catch, but if we played all those playoff games, I WOULD be writing a check, and I'm not(unfortunately). So, you're right about the Sox getting their money, but they already have it(from the exchange sales), and they already counted on it.
I still say this is a financial blow, and an issue.

Nope. I doubt they even budgeted the dollars on the cash books because the uncertainty of a reliable estimate, the fact they wouldn't need that money to fund cash operations and it would be budgeted as a debit and credit on the balance sheet (zero net effect). They certainly didn't budget it on the accrual books or what GAAP requires. They cannot recongnize that revenue until 2007 and the Sox did not create a 2006 budget with 2007 revenue numbers.

we be jake
09-19-2006, 05:12 PM
To me, the biggest difference in this team was the attitude. Last year they took nothing for granted, this year they seemed to be waiting around for the 3-run HR. As far as I can tell, the cause for the change was the absence of Rowand and the presence of Thome. I hated that trade from the beginning and I hate it even more now. I am glad to see Frank putting up big numbers and leading his team to the offseason; I just hope KW can get over his arrogance and realize he made a big mistake by letting the best hitter in franchise history go to another team.

This team sure looked good on paper, but I had (mistakenly) hoped that KW learned last year that you don't win championships based on the names on the opening day roster. It is clear now how important chemistry (and luck) were in 2005.

It is good to see others defining this part of "the slide". The arrogance of attitude, from gm on down, has turned off a lot of fans. Dumping Aaron and Frank and picking up Thome (and a certain "starting pitcher") were surely boneheaded moves. Did they think Konerko and Dye were done hitting homers? What ever happened to small ball? Did they think a line-up with Frank, Aaron, Konerko,Crede,et al wouldn't go long often enough to support what should have been the premier starting rotation in all of baseball? And if someone says how we desperately needed a left-handed power hitter, I'm gonna puke!
And lets not mention how the pitching was handlled. Can you say "Brandon". Oh wait, I think I'll leave my brother-in-law in for a couple more hitters. The young "keed" can start next year...or the year after that...or the year after that...or...

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 05:16 PM
Let's put it this way, it didn't help that all those concessions and parking won't be coming their way from up to 11 games.

Playing 11 post-season home games would have been a financial boon, and might have actually allowed them to increase payroll.

Now, with nothing, I doubt the payroll is going up, and will probably suffer a small drop(less than $5 million).

As for the ticket exchange revenue question, your point that it comes either out of my pocket or that of tix exch buyers is well taken. I don't have inside info on how it shakes out. But like any other business, their hope was to collect what they could in '06, and try to match it or beat it in '07. There's a small price increase coming for '07, but it probably won't make up for the presumed decrease in interest in tickets(both primary and secondary sales).

True, some revenue will be lost by not going to the postseason but it isn't as if it is 10% of the payroll or something like that. I stand by my decision that payroll will be the same if not higher next season. As I showed in an earlier post, the Sox already have $83 million locked up for next season and if they pick up the options on Buehrle, Dye and Iguchi, then payroll is at $99 million. Keep in mind this total does not include salary for Cotts, Cintron, Crede, Gload, Jenks, MacDougal, McCarthy, Podsednik, Riske or Thornton. I'm sure there will be some trades here and there but payroll will remain high. I mean, how many people do you think renewed their season tickets? 90%? 95%? And with a waiting list, those seats that weren't renewed will be snatched up by those waiting. Income will be high and payroll will remain high.

As for ticket exchange dollars, the Sox have a pretty sweet deal cooking. They get to offer a great service to ticket holders as well as skim a little off the top of the sale and earn all the interest off of the sales. If we assume 20,000 ticket holders each sold $250 worth of seats, that works out to a cool $5 million that the Sox can invest and earn interest on. Sure, they have to give the principle back to the ticket holders but in this regard they are no real different than a bank. Except this bank doesn't pay interest to the account holders.

I'm fully confident the Sox will match their 2006 ticket sale dollars in 2007. They will most likely be taking in slightly less revenue due to not making the post season this year but that difference will be small, even when you account for inflation.

The Dude
09-19-2006, 05:22 PM
I completely disagree. This team will still be contenders next season. No fire sale is coming, the Sox will be back and as strong or stronger than this season next year. Fans will see it and they will pay for the privilege of watching it live. I am sure many lifelong fans couldn't get tickets this year because of the huge influx of bandwagon jumpers. If some of the bandwagoners jump, the lifers will snap up the extras. They might not quite have as many ST holders, but to think it will drop an insane amount seems improbable.

A WS championship, a 90 win season and a reload for next year... The fans will be coming in droves until the Sox fail to look like pennant contenders to start the season.

I agree because as a season ticket holder we had to either commit to next season with the playoff tickets/season ticket credit, or take the playoff tickets and bail out for a cash refund if they weren't played.

I can't imagine a **** ton of people bailing out on their options last month. Especially when it looked a LOT more promising to have a great run this year and then to make sure they'd be a part of 2007.

I think the place will be rocking next year especially when moves are made that should help ease the pain of the second half of 2006. I think the worst case scenerio after the bailers bail, there will be at least 4/5 of the base left to start the offseason and if some popular moves are made, the rest will fill up once again.

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 05:27 PM
I think the worst case scenerio after the bailers bail, there will be at least 4/5 of the base left to start the offseason and if some popular moves are made, the rest will fill up once again.

4/5th is only 80%. I can't imagine that 20% of season ticket holders bailed out on next year's tickets close to three weeks ago. I'm thinking 10% bailed, tops. And with that waiting list, that 10% will fill up quick.

The Dude
09-19-2006, 05:34 PM
True, some revenue will be lost by not going to the postseason but it isn't as if it is 10% of the payroll or something like that. I stand by my decision that payroll will be the same if not higher next season. As I showed in an earlier post, the Sox already have $83 million locked up for next season and if they pick up the options on Buehrle, Dye and Iguchi, then payroll is at $99 million. Keep in mind this total does not include salary for Cotts, Cintron, Crede, Gload, Jenks, MacDougal, McCarthy, Podsednik, Riske or Thornton. I'm sure there will be some trades here and there but payroll will remain high. I mean, how many people do you think renewed their season tickets? 90%? 95%? And with a waiting list, those seats that weren't renewed will be snatched up by those waiting. Income will be high and payroll will remain high.

As for ticket exchange dollars, the Sox have a pretty sweet deal cooking. They get to offer a great service to ticket holders as well as skim a little off the top of the sale and earn all the interest off of the sales. If we assume 20,000 ticket holders each sold $250 worth of seats, that works out to a cool $5 million that the Sox can invest and earn interest on. Sure, they have to give the principle back to the ticket holders but in this regard they are no real different than a bank. Except this bank doesn't pay interest to the account holders.

I'm fully confident the Sox will match their 2006 ticket sale dollars in 2007. They will most likely be taking in slightly less revenue due to not making the post season this year but that difference will be small, even when you account for inflation.

$250?
I know myself and Chips sold over $1300.00 on the whitesox.com exchange (for our Upper reserved tickets) for a total of 18 games (34 tickets all together) and and he's made it to 61 games and I've made it to 41 games. That's not even including tickets we sold at face on the WSI exchange, friends and family, and early tickets in the season before I figured out the whitesox.com exchange!:redface:

Believe me, season tickets are very affordable if you play your cards right.... even for a poor graduate student!:cool:

Back to topic, the Sox will have made a killing on the fees for these resales (as itsnotrequired stated) from us ticket holders, the new buyers, and interest on the $$ in general.
This is not to mention making me very happy that next years tickets are pretty much paid for!:D:

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 05:36 PM
$250?
I know myself and Chips sold over $1300.00 on the whitesox.com exchange (for our Upper reserved tickets) for a total of 18 games (34 tickets all together) and and he's made it to 61 games and I've made it to 41 games. That's not even including tickets we sold on the WSI exchange, friends and family, and early tickets in the season before I figured out the whitesox.com exchange!:redface:

Believe me, season tickets are very affordable if you play your cards right.... even for a poor graduate student!:cool:

Back to topic, the Sox will have made a killing on the fees for these resales (as itsnotrequired stated) from us ticket holders, the new buyers, and interest on the $$ in general.
This is not to mention making me very happy that next years tickets are pretty much paid for!:D:

$250 seemed like a reasonable, conservative value. There are people that sold nothing on the exchange and others that sold probably $5000 worth. If we assume an average of $500 a seat, then that's $10 million that the Sox had to play with.

caulfield12
09-19-2006, 06:58 PM
The White Sox don't book that revenue for the current year. It's not the way JR operates (or projects revenues).

Next year is the key year anyway...if this is to turn to a White Sox town more permanently. Of course, it doesn't help that we're in the AL Central with the Twins' and Tigers' pitching staffs looming, Cleveland's young core and even KC's future looking bright.

With Hendry still around for one last year, the only wave the Cubs can make is signing Piniella or Girardi, assuming he leaves Miami. That will be big, but not as much as clean bills of health from their pitchers. They do have the advantage of a division with Houston getting suddenly old (along with the Cards) and they could easily be in the race if they get at least decent pitching.

With Buehrle, Dye, Crede, Garcia all going into their last or second to last years, it should be interesting.

KW wanted to keep the youth (Sweeney, Fields, Broadway and McCarthy) intact so he could try to compete by making lesser trades (like Lumsden) while not giving away the entire farm, which will be the key to this team's recovery in 2008 if they're not in the playoffs next year.

I don't think much besides the obvious will occur:

Pods and Uribe gone
New leadoff hitter
More bullpen help
Vazquez or Garcia (hopefully Freddy) gone

The biggest surprise to most of us would be Crede being traded or Buehrle being non-renewed, although the odds against the latter one taking place are probably not even available in Vegas or Atlantic City.

I think that this will be a different team with Jenks, MacDougal, Thome, Contreras, Buehrle and the rest of the team fully healthy next year in the spring and ready to go, barring some unforeseen Winter Ball injuries.

I've been a so-called "Dark Cloud" since the Red Sox "miracle victory" because it was painfully obvious there was something wrong or missing with this team. Teams with this much talent simply don't go for 6 months without a streak where they put it all together, Hawk was right, and the NL Central demolition inflated our record and masked the deep flaws in this team's foundation.

This team needs an identity, and the most important aspect (along with AJ) seems to be the leadoff hitter. There are tons of statistical correlations with Pods being successful and the team being successful with him, and, more often than not, he failed this year, both offensively and defensively.

KW will feel no great remorse about letting Pods, Uribe or Garcia go...I'm sure of it. Ozzie might argue that Vazquez should go instead of Garcia, but I think KW will win this argument in the end.