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Lip Man 1
09-18-2006, 10:42 PM
From whitesox.com:

"Am I happy with Brian? Well, not really,I thought he would be better, at least give me better at-bats. I didn't expect him to hit .350, but I expected him to give me better at-bats." -- Ozzie Guillen to whitesox.com

"Suffice to say, I wasn't very happy with the plan we had against him, we, above anybody, should know how to pitch to him. But it's over and done with. You have to tip your hat to Frank for rising up to a big game for his team and the occasion." -- Kenny Williams to whitesox.com

Gang it's going to be a VERY interesting off season. Brian is apparently so deep in Ozzie's doghouse that you probably should give him a collar and a food bowl. I don't think it's outrageous to think that he gets traded.

Lip

whitesoxfan
09-18-2006, 10:46 PM
Ozzie is really starting to get on my bad side by saying comments like these.

Why the **** aren't Pods, Buehrle, Garcia, and Vazquez in Ozzie's doghouse? Anderson is one of the only guys actually showing *some* life on offense the last couple of games.

Ozzie, you have a bigger problem in LF. His name is Scott Podsednik and he sucks.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-18-2006, 10:47 PM
From whitesox.com:

"Am I happy with Brian? Well, not really,I thought he would be better, at least give me better at-bats. I didn't expect him to hit .350, but I expected him to give me better at-bats." -- Ozzie Guillen to whitesox.com

"Suffice to say, I wasn't very happy with the plan we had against him, we, above anybody, should know how to pitch to him. But it's over and done with. You have to tip your hat to Frank for rising up to a big game for his team and the occasion." -- Kenny Williams to whitesox.com

Gang it's going to be a VERY interesting off season. Brian is apparently so deep in Ozzie's doghouse that you probably should give him a collar and a food bowl. I don't think it's outrageous to think that he gets traded.

Lip

How the hell did it go from "just great defense and the hits will come" to this bull****?:angry: I predict if they trade him he'll make our life hell for many seasons to come.

Corlose 15
09-18-2006, 10:47 PM
With all the time they gave Crede and Garland I'd be surprised to see them trade Anderson after one season.

Also, there are bigger problems than BA. Namely there not being a leadoff hitter or a starting pitcher with an ERA under 4.

jenn2080
09-18-2006, 10:47 PM
**** ozzie and his ****ing Anderson hate. Maybe if he played him more instead ****ty defense oaklawn brian would have had a bit better at bats. :angry: :angry: :angry:

Deuce
09-18-2006, 10:48 PM
To be honest, I'd rather trade Ozzie than Anderson. BA needs at bats to improve, and he just wasn't getting many once he began to hit well. Ozzie seems to be trying to justify his decision to platoon BA, which is an obvious mistake given his defense and improving batting average.

Not everyone can be Rookie of the Year, Ozzie. Give the kid a break. You know, those things you are constantly giving everyone else when they underperform. Go ahead and give BA one of those every now and then.

Deuce

Jjav829
09-18-2006, 10:51 PM
From whitesox.com:

"Am I happy with Brian? Well, not really,I thought he would be better, at least give me better at-bats. I didn't expect him to hit .350, but I expected him to give me better at-bats." -- Ozzie Guillen to whitesox.com

"Suffice to say, I wasn't very happy with the plan we had against him, we, above anybody, should know how to pitch to him. But it's over and done with. You have to tip your hat to Frank for rising up to a big game for his team and the occasion." -- Kenny Williams to whitesox.com

Gang it's going to be a VERY interesting off season. Brian is apparently so deep in Ozzie's doghouse that you probably should give him a collar and a food bowl. I don't think it's outrageous to think that he gets traded.

Lip

I think it's tough to say for sure that Brian is in Ozzie's doghouse. A lot of this comes down to knowing how to treat a player. Certain players have to be treated in different ways. Not everyone reacts well the to the same thing.

Some guys have to be coddled. Others have to be given a kick in the ass. I'm not in position to know which one Brian Anderson falls into. However, the Sox, and specifically Ozzie, are in that position. The members of the Sox organization all the way up and down know this. And perhaps they have told Ozzie that Anderson is one of these types that you need to constantly stay on to get him to be the best he can be.

Frankly Missing
09-18-2006, 10:51 PM
It's a shame. The kid has a ton of personality.

If you watch him during batting pratice, he has a warm demeanor, is fan friendly also. He acts like he is enjoying his good fortune and the game.

Maybe Ozzie wants to wipe that smile off his face.

I would rather see him traded than for him to lose his zest for the game and his job.

CLR01
09-18-2006, 10:51 PM
Ozzie is really starting to get on my bad side by saying comments like these.

Why the **** aren't Pods, Buehrle, Garcia, and Vazquez in Ozzie's doghouse? Anderson is one of the only guys actually showing *some* life on offense the last couple of games.

Ozzie, you have a bigger problem in LF. His name is Scott Podsednik and he sucks.



Uribe has been giving him bad at bats for 3 years now and nothing. As some else said how long did they give Crede? Ozzie didn't have much to say about him in 2004 either.

23Ventura
09-18-2006, 10:56 PM
I wonder what Ozzie would say if someone asked him if he's happy with Mack's play in CF.

jenn2080
09-18-2006, 10:56 PM
It's a shame. The kid has a ton of personality.

If you watch him during batting pratice, he has a warm demeanor, is fan friendly also. He acts like he is enjoying his good fortune and the game.

Maybe Ozzie wants to wipe that smile off his face.

I would rather see him traded than for him to lose his zest for the game and his job.


I would also Anderson traded them him be **** on all the time for nothing.

JB98
09-18-2006, 11:02 PM
From whitesox.com:

"Am I happy with Brian? Well, not really,I thought he would be better, at least give me better at-bats. I didn't expect him to hit .350, but I expected him to give me better at-bats." -- Ozzie Guillen to whitesox.com

"Suffice to say, I wasn't very happy with the plan we had against him, we, above anybody, should know how to pitch to him. But it's over and done with. You have to tip your hat to Frank for rising up to a big game for his team and the occasion." -- Kenny Williams to whitesox.com

Gang it's going to be a VERY interesting off season. Brian is apparently so deep in Ozzie's doghouse that you probably should give him a collar and a food bowl. I don't think it's outrageous to think that he gets traded.

Lip

I wouldn't mind trading him if we could get some quality pitching for him, but I don't think his value is that high. I imagine the Sox will keep him and hope he develops. I'd like to see a veteran brought in to push him, and I think Sweeney can challenge for the job in CF next year as well.

QCIASOXFAN
09-18-2006, 11:04 PM
I would also Anderson traded them him be **** on all the time for nothing.
:?:

100 Year Itch
09-18-2006, 11:09 PM
I think it's tough to say for sure that Brian is in Ozzie's doghouse. A lot of this comes down to knowing how to treat a player. Certain players have to be treated in different ways. Not everyone reacts well the to the same thing.

Some guys have to be coddled. Others have to be given a kick in the ass. I'm not in position to know which one Brian Anderson falls into. However, the Sox, and specifically Ozzie, are in that position. The members of the Sox organization all the way up and down know this. And perhaps they have told Ozzie that Anderson is one of these types that you need to constantly stay on to get him to be the best he can be.

We'll never know for sure, but I think you make a good point. I remember a shot of the dug out of Anderson standing next to Walker after having a good at bat and hitting a homer. Anderson was clearly fishing for some sort acknowledgement from Walker but Greg just stoically stared forward toward the field prompting Anderson to sort of sulk away.

PaulDrake
09-18-2006, 11:11 PM
It seems to me that Ozzie's problem with BA goes much further than what he did or didn't do on the field. This is a personal vendetta and perhaps inquiring minds will someday get to know why.

DrCrawdad
09-18-2006, 11:12 PM
I will NEVER watch another game when Oak Lawn Rob is in CF. NEVER!

jenn2080
09-18-2006, 11:13 PM
:?:


hey i love Anderson but this **** on Anderson has been a bit much. i want to see Brian succeed.

Myrtle72
09-18-2006, 11:15 PM
Brian is apparently so deep in Ozzie's doghouse that you probably should give him a collar and a food bowl. I don't think it's outrageous to think that he gets traded.

I don't know the situation obviously, but perhaps it would be better for Brian and for Ozzie if he was traded. Maybe Brian would be able to thrive as a regular center fielder on another team that would be more likely to play him every day. Not that I want to see him go, I really do like him, but I don't think he can do his best on the Sox when he only plays once a week and his manager obviously doesn't like him.

ajismyhero
09-18-2006, 11:16 PM
So we all know Ozzie doesn't like Anderson - but really, how long do we thing Ozzie is actually to stick around? Isn't it more important that Kenny like BA?

JohnBasedowYoda
09-18-2006, 11:17 PM
With all the time they gave Crede and Garland I'd be surprised to see them trade Anderson after one season.

Also, there are bigger problems than BA. Namely there not being a leadoff hitter or a starting pitcher with an ERA under 4.

Right! Just because we won in 05 we gotta have instant success with rookies? Crede and Gar have been great and they need to take the time with BA.

I think this is just Ozzie being frustrated, couple that with his usuall idiotic comments.

QCIASOXFAN
09-18-2006, 11:28 PM
hey i love Anderson but this **** on Anderson has been a bit much. i want to see Brian succeed.
I was just laughing at the post you put before that. I think he is awesome to when he starts, but who knows when that is.

jenn2080
09-18-2006, 11:29 PM
I was just laughing at the post you put before that. I think he is awesome to when he starts, but who knows when that is.

lol i reread it. sorry i was typing in frustration. ozzie apparently can not put aside his differences for likes of what is needed for the team.

JB98
09-18-2006, 11:32 PM
It seems to me that Ozzie's problem with BA goes much further than what he did or didn't do on the field. This is a personal vendetta and perhaps inquiring minds will someday get to know why.

That's a strong accusation to make without a lot of evidence.

Honestly, I've never seen so much love for a guy who is hitting .230. BA has become a martyr for the people who are pissed at Ozzie.

ondafarm
09-18-2006, 11:34 PM
. . . Brian is apparently so deep in Ozzie's doghouse that you probably should give him a collar and a food bowl. I don't think it's outrageous to think that he gets traded. . .

No way. This is Ozzie's way of motivating BA, to tell him he needs to continue to work and improve this winter.

Fungo
09-18-2006, 11:36 PM
Each time Ozzie opens his mouth, I realize what a dope he really is. Scapegoating a rookie CF and going to the media saying that having to sweep Minnesota in the final series of the year would be "the worst case scenario" just put it over the top. With that comment, Ozzie is basically telling his team he has no confidence in them. Right now, having to sweep the Twins in that last series would be the "best case scenario" because it would mean we still have a fighting chance.

oeo
09-18-2006, 11:37 PM
It seems to me that Ozzie's problem with BA goes much further than what he did or didn't do on the field. This is a personal vendetta and perhaps inquiring minds will someday get to know why.

If this is true (I don't think there really is evidence that is), Anderson better not be going after this season...he's going to be a star.

Ozzie needs to look around at everyone else on the team, and tell us how any one of them are producing more than Brian is. I don't think there is a guy out there right now.

Mackowiak's defense blew countless games this year. If you don't like Anderson so much, a backup centerfielder should have been had at the deadline.

CLR01
09-18-2006, 11:40 PM
That's a strong accusation to make without a lot of evidence.

Honestly, I've never seen so much love for a guy who is hitting .230. BA has become a martyr for the people who are pissed at Ozzie.


There is something else going on here beside "Brian's not giving me good at bats". His season numbers suck but so do Uribes and he's not getting benched 2-3 times a week like Anderson. Has Ozzie treated anyone else like this for this long in the 3 years he's been here? His season numbers may suck but his second half numbers are every bit as good as anything Mack has thrown up in either half.


When I first read about the encounter The Dude had with Ozzie Jr I bushed it off as drunk talk but now who knows.

JB98
09-18-2006, 11:43 PM
If this is true (I don't think there really is evidence that is), Anderson better not be going after this season...he's going to be a star.

Ozzie needs to look around at everyone else on the team, and tell us how any one of them are producing more than Brian is. I don't think there is a guy out there right now.

Mackowiak's defense blew countless games this year. If you don't like Anderson so much, a backup centerfielder should have been had at the deadline.

Responding to each of your statements one at a time:

1. BA is capable of having a long and good major-league career, but I don't see him as a perennial All-Star or anything.

2. BA isn't producing, and neither is anyone else.

3. One of the biggest failings by KW this year was overestimating BA's readiness for the big-league level and not acquiring a suitable Plan B for CF. Maybe he thought Mackowiak was a suitable Plan B, but he was not.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-18-2006, 11:51 PM
When I first read about the encounter The Dude had with Ozzie Jr I bushed it off as drunk talk but now who knows.

?

JB98
09-18-2006, 11:52 PM
There is something else going on here beside "Brian's not giving me good at bats". His season numbers suck but so do Uribes and he's not getting benched 2-3 times a week like Anderson. Has Ozzie treated anyone else like this for this long in the 3 years he's been here? His season numbers may suck but his second half numbers are every bit as good as anything Mack has thrown up in either half.


When I first read about the encounter The Dude had with Ozzie Jr I bushed it off as drunk talk but now who knows.

Ozzie has had his run-ins with Uribe this year too. I recall a full week where Uribe was out of the lineup, and every day reporters were asking Ozzie if Juan was in the doghouse. Ozzie said he wasn't, but actions spoke otherwise. The whole thing went down after Uribe hotdogged a routine pop-up and dropped it and committed some other stupid errors in a short period of time.

And Pods NEVER plays against a left-handed pitcher anymore. Pablo has always gotten some time out there the last two years, but we've now reached a point where he gets all the starts against righties. Pods is definitely falling out of favor too.

MrX
09-18-2006, 11:55 PM
Honestly, I've never seen so much love for a guy who is hitting .230. BA has become a martyr for the people who are pissed at Ozzie.
I think if he would have continues hitting .170 people would be dumping on him more than Ozzie is. The Mackowiak experience has also won Brian some points. His improvement has won him goodwill from people.

CLR01
09-18-2006, 11:58 PM
?

Take a trip over to the drinking teams board.

Ozzie has had his run-ins with Uribe this year too. I recall a full week where Uribe was out of the lineup, and every day reporters were asking Ozzie if Juan was in the doghouse. Ozzie said he wasn't, but actions spoke otherwise. The whole thing went down after Uribe hotdogged a routine pop-up and dropped it and committed some other stupid errors in a short period of time.

And Pods NEVER plays against a left-handed pitcher anymore. Pablo has always gotten some time out there the last two years, but we've now reached a point where he gets all the starts against righties. Pods is definitely falling out of favor too.

But like you said the Uribe thing lasted a week and he is back to getting the majority of starts again. Pods has definietly fallen out of favor but it took what 5 months for it to happen?

Nellie_Fox
09-19-2006, 12:02 AM
I firmly believe that there is a reason that Anderson is so deeply in Ozzie's doghouse, and there's no question that he is. Ozzie isn't blind; he knows that Mackowiak is no center fielder. My theory is that he is resisting coaching, just refusing to try some things that they want him to try, and they aren't playing that. You can't allow a rookie to resist coaching.

The prior observation about Walker just ignoring him after a big hit lends even more credence. Could it have been a situation of "see coach, I did it my way, and it worked" and Walker just ignoring him because it works so seldom?

JB98
09-19-2006, 12:08 AM
Take a trip over to the drinking teams board.



But like you said the Uribe thing lasted a week and he is back to getting the majority of starts again. Pods has definietly fallen out of favor but it took what 5 months for it to happen?

Uribe and Pods are also both veterans who started on a world champion last year. BA is a rookie. I think it's easier to get out of the doghouse when you've been a key player on a winner before. That manager has more trust toward guys who have been there and done that.

It's possible the coaching staff is sending a message to BA because he was "lukewarm" about the possibility of playing winter ball. They want him to understand that this is not a country club, and his position is not guaranteed. Despite his second-half improvement, he has not done enough to secure a guaranteed starting spot for 2007. Maybe he doesn't realize that, and something needed to be done to make him understand. This is all speculation on my part, but I think this theory is more plausible than some sort of "personal vendetta" by Ozzie toward BA.

Honestly, BA is being portrayed here as some poor, innocent, defenseless puppy dog who has done nothing wrong. And mean ol' Ozzie is kicking him in the head with an iron boot.

Grzegorz
09-19-2006, 04:47 AM
I firmly believe that there is a reason that Anderson is so deeply in Ozzie's doghouse, and there's no question that he is. Ozzie isn't blind; he knows that Mackowiak is no center fielder. My theory is that he is resisting coaching, just refusing to try some things that they want him to try, and they aren't playing that. You can't allow a rookie to resist coaching.

The prior observation about Walker just ignoring him after a big hit lends even more credence. Could it have been a situation of "see coach, I did it my way, and it worked" and Walker just ignoring him because it works so seldom?

Nellie_Fox,

All this is is speculation... If there is a source to that confirms these hypothesis reveal it.

Deuce
09-19-2006, 06:11 AM
All this is is speculation... If there is a source to that confirms these hypothesis reveal it.Umm... and that is why he said it was his "theory."

My theory is that he is resisting coaching, just refusing to try some things that they want him to try, and they aren't playing that.

MadetoOrta
09-19-2006, 06:46 AM
That's a strong accusation to make without a lot of evidence.

Honestly, I've never seen so much love for a guy who is hitting .230. BA has become a martyr for the people who are pissed at Ozzie.

Love? He's a 5-tool, former 1st round pick, from a big time college program, who is as good a defensive centerfielder [an extremely important position] as there is in the AL. He has succeeded at all levels of baseball and - but for the first half of this year - he's starting to figure out major league pitching too.

Two names come to mind when I look back at BA's rookie year - ROBIN VENTURA AND JOE CREDE. Crede struggled for 3 years and Robin had a horrible 1st half of his rookie year.

I have no doubt BA will be an all-star caliber outfielder for some time.

I'm sick of Guillen calling people out in public.

And I woke up calm and reflective hoping for 2007. Now, I'm pissed

The Dude
09-19-2006, 06:52 AM
With all the time they gave Crede and Garland I'd be surprised to see them trade Anderson after one season.

Also, there are bigger problems than BA. Namely there not being a leadoff hitter or a starting pitcher with an ERA under 4.

The difference between Crede & Garland - and BA is pure spite! BA rubbed Ozzie the wrong way and he doesn't want him around to develop. It's a shame that we will probably see BA become a great ballplayer on another team because of egos.:angry: I hope I'm wrong and they work through it.

PaulDrake
09-19-2006, 07:28 AM
BA rubbed Ozzie the wrong way and he doesn't want him around to develop. It's a shame that we will probably see BA become a great ballplayer on another team because of egos.:angry: I hope I'm wrong and they work through it. That is exactly what I think even though it wasn't too popular among some here, and I hope that I'm wrong too.

stl_sox_fan
09-19-2006, 07:56 AM
The difference between Crede & Garland - and BA is pure spite! BA rubbed Ozzie the wrong way and he doesn't want him around to develop. It's a shame that we will probably see BA become a great ballplayer on another team because of egos.:angry: I hope I'm wrong and they work through it.

I keep reading threads that BA ticked off Ozzie and this is his retaliation, but noone can verify it. Sheesh, Ozzie will only air some of the teams dirty laundry in public but not all of it. I really would like to know what the root cause of their tiff is.

BeviBall!
09-19-2006, 07:57 AM
It's quotes like Ozzie's here that make the outcome of the 2006 season not as much of a surprise as we all might think it is.

stl_sox_fan
09-19-2006, 08:07 AM
It's quotes like Ozzie's here that make the outcome of the 2006 season not as much of a surprise as we all might think it is.

Words like "chemistry", "gelling", "having fun" that were there in 2005 are definitely not here in 2006.

veeter
09-19-2006, 08:08 AM
Ozzie's treatment of Brian is pissing me off too, but to say that this will probably lead to a trade is just stirring the pot. Like someone else said, look how long Crede and Garland were stuck with. It's just funny, Ozzie who had maybe five good at bats his whole career, is giving Anderson grief. If anyone should worry about the dog house, it's Ozzie. Most fans are starting to turn on this phony.

Thome25
09-19-2006, 08:18 AM
With all the time they gave Crede and Garland I'd be surprised to see them trade Anderson after one season.

Also, there are bigger problems than BA. Namely there not being a leadoff hitter or a starting pitcher with an ERA under 4.

I'm not sure what to expect. I agree with this post. They gave Crede and Garland all the time in the world when they were both struggling early on.

To a certain extent, the even gave Aaron Rowand alot of time to find his way.

But, I'd have to say things are different than they were back then. The team is trying to win NOW. They have a relatively small window to win with this team and they need to capitalize on it right away.

When Crede and Garland were struggling, there was time for them to develop because the team wasn't always winning they way they are right now.

We've all seen what happens to players that get in Ozzie's doghouse. Look at where Carlos Lee, Magglio, Luis Vizcaino, and Damaso Marte are now.

I say BA is gone after this year and maybe if they keep him it'll be as a 4th outfielder. He might be going down the same road as Jeff Abbott and Joe Borchard.

russ99
09-19-2006, 08:19 AM
I'm almost at the point where I hope KW trades Mackowiak in the offseason, just so Ozzie doesn't play him in CF. The guy's not a CF, he's a 3B and can play some utility OF. Maybe Ozzie's forced to use the hand KW dealt him in this case.

I have to give big props to Mackowiak for giving such a great effort when he's obviously incapable of playing his new position well. Other guys on the team need to take a long look at that.

BA's still got a ton of potential, but Ozzie's comments are to call him out and tell him he has to work hard to get a spot and that also means winter ball. Look at Owens "blacklisting" when he didn't go along with the team on that.

CLR01
09-19-2006, 08:24 AM
We've all seen what happens to players that get in Ozzie's doghouse. Look at where Carlos Lee, Magglio, Luis Vizcaino, and Damaso Marte are now.


Marte is the only one of those players who got the same treatment as Anderson and even then it was only the last month of the season that he started sitting on the bench.

Thome25
09-19-2006, 08:29 AM
Ozzie's treatment of Brian is pissing me off too, but to say that this will probably lead to a trade is just stirring the pot. Like someone else said, look how long Crede and Garland were stuck with. It's just funny, Ozzie who had maybe five good at bats his whole career, is giving Anderson grief. If anyone should worry about the dog house, it's Ozzie. Most fans are starting to turn on this phony.

It's quotes like Ozzie's here that make the outcome of the 2006 season not as much of a surprise as we all might think it is.

I keep reading threads that BA ticked off Ozzie and this is his retaliation, but noone can verify it. Sheesh, Ozzie will only air some of the teams dirty laundry in public but not all of it. I really would like to know what the root cause of their tiff is.

The Ozzie bash fest needs to stop. It's easy for all of us to sit here and play "arm-chair manager" but there's so many things that go on behind the scenes that we as fans probably don't know about and will never know about.

It's easy to second guess someone after the fact. There's probably a good reason for Ozzie's comments and the fact that he plays Mackowiak in CF so often.

Give the guy more credit than that. He's smarter that you think he is. He's not just "showing up 10 minutes before game-time and putting Mackowiak's name down in the line-up because he doesn't know any better". There's obviously something underlying that we just don't know about.

OZZIE IS THE FIRST MANAGER TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES FOR US IN 88 YEARS. Don't sit there and bash him just because his players are under-achieving this season.

Thome25
09-19-2006, 08:35 AM
Marte is the only one of those players who got the same treatment as Anderson and even then it was only the last month of the season that he started sitting on the bench.

Don't kid yourself. Carlos Lee isn't here anymore because he quote "Slid into second like his wife was turning the double play."

I honestly believe there was more to the Magglio situation than just him not wanting to report to the DR. when it came time for him to sign an extension.

Ozzie didn't like him or his style of play. He wanted players that were grinders. So by definition, all that and the bash-fest they had last season I'd say Magglio was in his doghouse all along.

The only one who maybe wasn't in his doghouse was Vizcaino

samram
09-19-2006, 08:49 AM
There are some very interesting theories in this thread and the Dude's encounter with Ozzie Jr. sheds some more light on the situation.

The deal is Ozzie's personal vendettas can't matter more than the team's success. If Ozzie allowed personal issues to prevent greater success for the team by removing a teriffic defensive player from the 9th spot in the order, shame on him. I wonder how much about his KW knew.

The comments about the approach to Frank were interesting too. I remember hearing that KW had questioned Ozzie about playing Mack in CF so much, and now those comments come along.

I would say that if the Sox have a 2007 similar to this season, Ozzie will be on the hot seat. KW won't allow the 2005 championship to keep him from winning in 2008 if he thinks there's a better person for the job.

Hitmen77
09-19-2006, 08:53 AM
Responding to each of your statements one at a time:

1. BA is capable of having a long and good major-league career, but I don't see him as a perennial All-Star or anything.

Great defensive CFs who can hit decently and have "long and good" careers don't grow on trees. Why is it All-Star or bust for BA?

2. BA isn't producing, and neither is anyone else.
I thought BA has been hitting .280 or so since June. Given his defensive ability, why can't we live with that?

3. One of the biggest failings by KW this year was overestimating BA's readiness for the big-league level and not acquiring a suitable Plan B for CF. Maybe he thought Mackowiak was a suitable Plan B, but he was not.
I agree - especially if KW and Ozzie thought he was going to instantly be a .300 hitter and never make any rookie mistakes.

CLR01
09-19-2006, 08:59 AM
Don't kid yourself. Carlos Lee isn't here anymore because he quote "Slid into second like his wife was turning the double play."

I honestly believe there was more to the Magglio situation than just him not wanting to report to the DR. when it came time for him to sign an extension.

Ozzie didn't like him or his style of play. He wanted players that were grinders. So by definition, all that and the bash-fest they had last season I'd say Magglio was in his doghouse all along.

The only one who maybe wasn't in his doghouse was Vizcaino


I'm not kidding myself. I'm sure Ozzie has had a problem with a number of players during his 3 year run as manager but how many of them were benched once, twice, three times a week over the course of an entire year? Yeah he ran his mouth about Maggs and a few other guys after they were gone but did he ever say much publicly when they were still members of the team?

Thome25
09-19-2006, 09:10 AM
I'm not kidding myself. I'm sure Ozzie has had a problem with a number of players during his 3 year run as manager but how many of them were benched once, twice, three times a week over the course of an entire year? Yeah he ran his mouth about Maggs and a few other guys after they were gone but did he ever say much publicly when they were still members of the team?

I'd have to agree with you on that one. There is only a handful of plyers who were publicly in Ozzie's doghouse. Uribe and BA this year and Marte last year.

But, there are even more that were obviously in his doghouse who he didn't publicly dislike and he didn't bench regularly.

Those players aren't wearing a White Sox uniform anymore.

My guess is that Uribe is gone the same way Marte was after last season. As for BA, if he isn't traded then he'll be on the bench next year as the 4th outfielder.

champagne030
09-19-2006, 09:17 AM
The Ozzie bash fest needs to stop. It's easy for all of us to sit here and play "arm-chair manager" but there's so many things that go on behind the scenes that we as fans probably don't know about and will never know about.

It's easy to second guess someone after the fact. There's probably a good reason for Ozzie's comments and the fact that he plays Mackowiak in CF so often.

Give the guy more credit than that. He's smarter that you think he is. He's not just "showing up 10 minutes before game-time and putting Mackowiak's name down in the line-up because he doesn't know any better". There's obviously something underlying that we just don't know about.

OZZIE IS THE FIRST MANAGER TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES FOR US IN 88 YEARS. Don't sit there and bash him just because his players are under-achieving this season.

No there's not. BA in CF gives the White Sox the best chance to win. He is not helping the development of Brian by playing him against Captain Cheeseburger and sitting him against Runelvys Hernandez. Ozzie inexplicably lives and dies with the lefty/righty matchup, but just like Iguchi and Crede, BA hits righties better than lefties.

Thome25
09-19-2006, 09:31 AM
No there's not. BA in CF gives the White Sox the best chance to win. He is not helping the development of Brian by playing him against Captain Cheeseburger and sitting him against Runelvys Hernandez. Ozzie inexplicably lives and dies with the lefty/righty matchup, but just like Iguchi and Crede, BA hits righties better than lefties.

Like I said in the original post give Ozzie more credit that that. Do you honestly think that Ozzie is going to play someone who is an inferior defender and who is out of position for no good reason?

This is the big leagues. Ozzie is a big league manager. He didn't just finish managing the LLWS. He doesn't manage your buddy's softbball team.

He also doesn't get to the park just before gametime, scratch his head, and say "HMMM I guess maybe Mackowiak should play CF today."

He's doing things for a reason. The lefty/righty matchup isn't it. Mackowiak is obviously the only option in CF.

Yeah BA is batting .280 the last few months but how many of his ABs have been good quality ABs?

With the way the team has been struggling we have no time for a struggling CF or SS for that matter.

Mackowiak's defense isn't the reason we're in the position we're in right now. I'll tell you the reason. WHEN WE HIT WE DON'T PITCH> WHEN WE PITCH WE DON"T HIT.

When things are going that way, we can't have two hitters who can't hit their body weight who are automatic outs at the bottom of the order.

southside rocks
09-19-2006, 09:40 AM
Like I said in the original post give Ozzie more credit that that. Do you honestly think that Ozzie is going to play someone who is an inferior defender and who is out of position for no good reason?

This is the big leagues. Ozzie is a big league manager. He didn't just finish managing the LLWS. He doesn't manage your buddy's softbball team.

He also doesn't get to the park just before gametime, scratch his head, and say "HMMM I guess maybe Mackowiak should play CF today."

He's doing things for a reason. The lefty/righty matchup isn't it. Mackowiak is obviously the only option in CF.

Yeah BA is batting .280 the last few months but how many of his ABs have been good quality ABs?

With the way the team has been struggling we have no time for a struggling CF or SS for that matter.

Mackowiak's defense isn't the reason we're in the position we're in right now. I'll tell you the reason. WHEN WE HIT WE DON'T PITCH> WHEN WE PITCH WE DON"T HIT.

When things are going that way, we can't have two hitters who can't hit their body weight who are automatic outs at the bottom of the order.

FWIW, I agree totally with both your posts.

There's so much frustration now among the fans that it has to go somewhere, and a lot of it's spilling into the "Let's Blame Ozzie" trough. Completely understandable.

What's silly is for anybody on this board or any other board to think that they know all the reasons behind Ozzie's moves. MAYBE 2% of what really goes on in the clubhouse and on the team makes it into the media, and that's all we get to see and hear.

It's nice to see so many people defend Anderson, but we don't know what he did or didn't do, said or didn't say, that led Ozzie to say some of the things we've read.

Said it before and I'll say it again: the day that anybody on an internet board knows more about managing a MLB team than Ozzie Guillen does, is the day that I can take over for Joe Crede at 3rd base.

And for the White Sox to have their "best chance to win" it's gonna take a hell of a lot more than Anderson in CF. All season, what's been needed has been consistent and good pitching, and consistent run production. The team's had neither. Brian Anderson, even though I'm sure he can walk across Lake Michigan, could not have salvaged this season for this team.

daveeym
09-19-2006, 09:44 AM
The Ozzie bash fest needs to stop. It's easy for all of us to sit here and play "arm-chair manager" but there's so many things that go on behind the scenes that we as fans probably don't know about and will never know about.

It's easy to second guess someone after the fact. There's probably a good reason for Ozzie's comments and the fact that he plays Mackowiak in CF so often.

Give the guy more credit than that. He's smarter that you think he is. He's not just "showing up 10 minutes before game-time and putting Mackowiak's name down in the line-up because he doesn't know any better". There's obviously something underlying that we just don't know about.

OZZIE IS THE FIRST MANAGER TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES FOR US IN 88 YEARS. Don't sit there and bash him just because his players are under-achieving this season.
Ozzie and KW have some questions to answer to the fans when the season is over. You're right we don't know what's going on in their heads but the signs don't look promising. I don't think they owe us an explanation during the season, their jobs are to coach, keep the team competing and worry about the season. After this wraps up though it's another story completely. And i don't want to hear the issues slowly leaking out over the offseason from players. I want Ozzie and KW to lay it out there.

While the players have underachieved there seems to be alot more lingering behind the scenes than just that. Is BA really in the doghouse or is it just motivation? Why does Uribe get a pass and appear to have a bad attitude along with Freddy? What's with the ADD moves with the pen and the starting lineup? Is there some friction between KW and Ozzie. KW seems to be biting his tongue alot and I get the impression he's not happy with more than just the play of this team.

Thome25
09-19-2006, 09:54 AM
Ozzie and KW have some questions to answer to the fans when the season is over. You're right we don't know what's going on in their heads but the signs don't look promising. I don't think they owe us an explanation during the season, their jobs are to coach, keep the team competing and worry about the season. After this wraps up though it's another story completely. And i don't want to hear the issues slowly leaking out over the offseason from players. I want Ozzie and KW to lay it out there.

While the players have underachieved there seems to be alot more lingering behind the scenes than just that. Is BA really in the doghouse or is it just motivation? Why does Uribe get a pass and appear to have a bad attitude along with Freddy? What's with the ADD moves with the pen and the starting lineup? Is there some friction between KW and Ozzie. KW seems to be biting his tongue alot and I get the impression he's not happy with more than just the play of this team.


I'd have to agree with this post. There is some stuff going on that we just don't know about. Ozzie could be using his comments on BA as motivation for him for the rest of the season and going into winterball.

Or maybe he's just fed up. We'll never know. I'm just saying have more faith in the man. He brought us a World Series for crying out loud. He's a smart guy and I believe things like the BA situation are well thought out before their executed.

As far as Uribe goes, didn't he get benched for a little while and trashed for not reporting an injury? TO my knowledge, the only one who has recieved a free pass from Ozzie this season is Garcia.

Fungo
09-19-2006, 10:09 AM
I firmly believe that there is a reason that Anderson is so deeply in Ozzie's doghouse, and there's no question that he is. Ozzie isn't blind; he knows that Mackowiak is no center fielder. My theory is that he is resisting coaching, just refusing to try some things that they want him to try, and they aren't playing that. You can't allow a rookie to resist coaching.

The prior observation about Walker just ignoring him after a big hit lends even more credence. Could it have been a situation of "see coach, I did it my way, and it worked" and Walker just ignoring him because it works so seldom?

Nellie_Fox,

All this is is speculation... If there is a source to that confirms these hypothesis reveal it.I'd be interested as well if there is any validity to this. If so, it changes the way I look at things.

champagne030
09-19-2006, 10:12 AM
Like I said in the original post give Ozzie more credit that that. Do you honestly think that Ozzie is going to play someone who is an inferior defender and who is out of position for no good reason?

Yes, I think it's for no good reason. Stubborness and spite are not good reasons. His ego has taken over.

This is the big leagues. Ozzie is a big league manager. He didn't just finish managing the LLWS. He doesn't manage your buddy's softbball team.

And he never managed a team before the Sox. He **** gold nuggets last season. This year he was constipated. What's your point?

He also doesn't get to the park just before gametime, scratch his head, and say "HMMM I guess maybe Mackowiak should play CF today."

I agree. He plays Mack against most righties and BA against lefties. And damned be the defensive results to the White Sox and the fact BA hits righties better than lefties.

He's doing things for a reason. The lefty/righty matchup isn't it. Mackowiak is obviously the only option in CF.

Maybe, maybe when BA is batting .160 you play Mack in CF until you can find a replacement. When BA is batting .280+ he plays 14 out of 15 games. Mack is only an emergency option in CF and there's no emergency in CF right now.

Yeah BA is batting .280 the last few months but how many of his ABs have been good quality ABs?

He's looked fine the past two months. Does he strike out too much? Yes, so does Thome? BA draws his share of walks and works the count. He's looked better than Mack at the plate the past four to six weeks.

With the way the team has been struggling we have no time for a struggling CF or SS for that matter.

Exactly, bench Mack and play the CF who is not struggling.

Mackowiak's defense isn't the reason we're in the position we're in right now. I'll tell you the reason. WHEN WE HIT WE DON'T PITCH> WHEN WE PITCH WE DON"T HIT.

I do not agree. It's not the only reason, but it's a reason. Sure, the pitching was bad and the hitting the last two months went in the tank. Mack has cost us a MINIMUM of 5-7 games with his defense.

When things are going that way, we can't have two hitters who can't hit their body weight who are automatic outs at the bottom of the order.

I agree, but BA doesn't weigh 285. No matter what way things are going you cannot afford to put a player in CF who will misplay a fly ball into a hit every other game.


See above...

daveeym
09-19-2006, 10:14 AM
As far as Uribe goes, didn't he get benched for a little while and trashed for not reporting an injury? TO my knowledge, the only one who has recieved a free pass from Ozzie this season is Garcia.
Yes he did, but he needs to be benched more. He has a selfish style and appears to be uncoachable. It seems like he reverted to doing it his way this year, team be damned. He's lollygagged countless throws over to first and has often looked lackadaisical.

Thome25
09-19-2006, 10:16 AM
See above...

I'm not getting into a brawl with you. You're wrong because you think Ozzie became the manager of the Sox by accident and he has one of those things that mixes up the lottery balls with player's names on it to decide his lineups.

Welcome to baseball. it's a thinking man's sport. Ozzie thinks about things
before he does them.

The game is Chess NOT Checkers. If Ozzie really did things the way you're saying, we'd be in last place behind the Royals.

I think you're flat-out wrong. PERIOD. Try to act like you know something about the game.

34 Inch Stick
09-19-2006, 10:21 AM
. Ozzie thinks about things
before he does them.

The game is Chess NOT Checkers. If Ozzie really did things the way you're saying, we'd be in last place behind the Royals.
.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Ozzie does not think about things before he does them and the Sox are not better than the Royals in the second half.

Jaffar
09-19-2006, 10:22 AM
Fun with Numbers!

Macko Avg/Obp/Slg
August- .250/.318/.350
September- .190/.217/.333
Last 7 days- .222/.222/.556

Anderson Avg/Obp/Slg
August- .296/.367/.437
September- .231/.250/.359
last 7 days- .313/.313/.563

I'm still confused how Mackowiak gives us the best chance of winning.

34 Inch Stick
09-19-2006, 10:26 AM
There are two things that we know of that make Ozzie angry with his players:

1. Not reporting an injury

2. Young players not playing winter ball.

All of the BA problems became public after he was on the verge of breaking #2. I don't think the Ozzie anger is any deeper than this.

Fortunately BA is KW hand picked centerfielder of the future. KW said in an interview that he does not interfere on the mirco level with the daily lineups. However, I have a feeling there is going to be a heated discussion between Ozzie and KW on the macro level about his dealings with young players in 06.

Thome25
09-19-2006, 10:28 AM
There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Ozzie does not think about things before he does them and the Sox are not better than the Royals in the second half.

I was talking overall records not just the 2nd half.

Thome25
09-19-2006, 10:29 AM
Fun with Numbers!

Macko Avg/Obp/Slg
August- .250/.318/.350
September- .190/.217/.333
Last 7 days- .222/.222/.556

Anderson Avg/Obp/Slg
August- .296/.367/.437
September- .231/.250/.359
last 7 days- .313/.313/.563

I'm still confused how Mackowiak gives us the best chance of winning.

numbers don't always say it all. How has BA been as far as SO? How good is he at moving runners over? Has he been clutch WRISP?

champagne030
09-19-2006, 10:37 AM
I'm not getting into a brawl with you. You're wrong because you think Ozzie became the manager of the Sox by accident and he has one of those things that mixes up the lottery balls with player's names on it to decide his lineups.

Welcome to baseball. it's a thinking man's sport. Ozzie thinks about things
before he does them.

The game is Chess NOT Checkers. If Ozzie really did things the way you're saying, we'd be in last place behind the Royals.

I think you're flat-out wrong. PERIOD. Try to act like you know something about the game.

I never said or insinuated that Ozzie made his lineup with lottery balls. He bases it off of the opposing pitcher. Lefties bat against righties and righties play against lefties, unless you're Dye, PK, Crede, Iguchi, Thome or AJ.

I never said Ozzie didn't think about things. I just said he uses flawed thinking sometimes.

Actually, it's not chess or checkers it's baseball. And anyone who knows anything about baseball realizes that over the past two months BA in CF would have given the White Sox a better chance to win than Mack.

Nellie_Fox
09-19-2006, 10:40 AM
I have no hard evidence for my theory. I just know that if all of us here on a fan board can see that Mackowiak is a liability in center field, so can Ozzie. Clearly something more is going on than meets the eye. I read all these posts from people who think it's just that Ozzie is stupid and can't see that Anderson is a better defensive player than Mackowiak, and I just don't buy it.

It's just that a rookie who has accomplished exactly nothing in his career cannot be allowed to think he will be in the lineup every day because there is no other option. The only thing I could think of is refusing to try what the coaches want him to try, so he sits.

I've been through it on another level. I coach the women's NCAA bowling team here at the university. Last year, a player who was arguably the best bowler on the team on a given day absolutely refused to do anything that we coaches wanted her to do, ranging from technical changes that could have made her more consistent to simple team discipline issues. She thought that her natural talent made her irreplaceable. After several meetings trying to get her to go along with the program, she was off the team before the end of the season. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet. No one is irreplaceable.

FedEx227
09-19-2006, 10:43 AM
numbers don't always say it all.

Yet, the game is a thinking mans game? So numbers don't say it all, then why does Ozzie make certain lineups against certain pitchers? He doesn't look at numbers, he doesn't look at reports, what does he look at then? Blind judgement?

How has BA been as far as SO?
Um. Look at the OBPs.

BA Advantage in August, September and last 7 days.

I know, I know "OBP doesn't say anything about strikeouts"... yes it does, it proves without a doubt that Anderson is much better at reaching base, albeit by hits or by walks. This doesn't mean he strikes out less, he most certaintely does strikeout a lot, but he is still reaching base more than Mackowiak which just makes it even more ridiculous to why hes getting benched. If a man who constantely gets flak for striking out way too much gets on-base more than the "save-all" Mack. Oops.

Also, Don't come in here and start telling people what they know and don't know about baseball, that will make your stay here VERY quick.

Nellie_Fox
09-19-2006, 10:47 AM
If a man who constantely gets flak for striking out way too much gets on-base more than the "save-all" Mack. Oops.Why do people always do these "straw-man" arguments? Nobody has called Mackowiak "save-all." Nobody. In fact, virtually everyone has acknowledged that he's a less-than-adequate answer as a center fielder. Nobody has said he's a better option at any level. Stick to arguing with the points actually made.

Also, Don't come in here and start telling people what they know and don't know about baseball, that will make your stay here VERY quick.And you don't tell people what will make their stays here short. I don't believe you have any authority in who stays and who goes, or for what.

FedEx227
09-19-2006, 10:48 AM
Why do people always do these "straw-man" arguments? Nobody has called Mackowiak "save-all." Nobody. In fact, virtually everyone has acknowledged that he's a less-than-adequate answer as a center fielder. Stick to arguing with the points actually made.

And you don't tell people what will make their stays here short. I don't believe you have any authority in who stays and who goes, or for what.

I don't, but if someone who disagreed with a mod or higher-up said anything like that he'd be gone in a minute.

viagracat
09-19-2006, 10:56 AM
I have no hard evidence for my theory. I just know that if all of us here on a fan board can see that Mackowiak is a liability in center field, so can Ozzie. Clearly something more is going on than meets the eye. I read all these posts from people who think it's just that Ozzie is stupid and can't see that Anderson is a better defensive player than Mackowiak, and I just don't buy it.

It's just that a rookie who has accomplished exactly nothing in his career cannot be allowed to think he will be in the lineup every day because there is no other option. The only thing I could think of is refusing to try what the coaches want him to try, so he sits.

I've been through it on another level. I coach the women's NCAA bowling team here at the university. Last year, a player who was arguably the best bowler on the team on a given day absolutely refused to do anything that we coaches wanted her to do, ranging from technical changes that could have made her more consistent to simple team discipline issues. She thought that her natural talent made her irreplaceable. After several meetings trying to get her to go along with the program, she was off the team before the end of the season. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet. No one is irreplaceable.

I tend to agree with Nellie and Thome25 here. Ozzie may be brash, stubborn and emotional, but he's not stupid. He knows results are all that matters in the managerial game and thus manages to win. We will never know, unless something bizarre happens, the real reasons BA doesn't play as much as he probably should. It stays in the clubhouse, and until I know the real reasons behind this (not likely to happen, of course), I'm giving Guillen the benefit of the doubt. He was the manager of the 2005 world champions, after all. Did he become an idiot all of a sudden?

Last year Guillen could have been elected mayor of Chicago (or Orland Park, at least :D: ) as he could do no wrong. And now some people think it's all his fault this year. :?: Baseball is a little more complicated than that.

Thome25
09-19-2006, 10:57 AM
Yet, the game is a thinking mans game? So numbers don't say it all, then why does Ozzie make certain lineups against certain pitchers? He doesn't look at numbers, he doesn't look at reports, what does he look at then? Blind judgement?

I'm not saying don't look at the numbers. I'm just saying don't look TOTALLY at the numbers. What is BA doing for the TEAM as far as hitting goes?

Mackowiak isn't the answer in CF. Neither is BA. I don't like playing the blame game but, KW is the one who put Ozzie in the situation of having to choose between BA or RM.

There's no way a Rookie should've been STARTING in such an important position as CF for a team in such a tight pennant race that is trying to defend a World Championship on top of that.

It puts too much pressure on the player (BA) and the manager as well.

For that I blame KW for putting Ozzie in that position and not giving him better options other than BA or Mackowiak.

kobo
09-19-2006, 10:59 AM
With the way the team has been struggling we have no time for a struggling CF or SS for that matter.


Then why is Ozzie not calling out Uribe? Why does Uribe still play almost everyday while BA is on the bench 3 times a week? Yeah, Uribe was benched for a week, big deal. Did it help him? Did he start hitting the cover off the ball and playing better defense? There is something more going on here like other people have said, and that has hurt the team this year. Last year Ozzie was not afraid to make moves that helped the team. This year, it appears he has had his favorites and has stuck with them, even if it means it may be hurting the team. And that is the opposite of the approach he took last year.

I know a lot of people are bashing Ozzie on a more regular basis and some of it is warranted and some isn't. Ozzie made bad moves last year too, it's just that the team was able to play over those. Everything went the Sox' way last year, they caught every break, this year has been the opposite. Ozzie seems to be way more stubborn this year, and one of the biggest gripes people have with him is that he constatntly plays matchups instead of with his gut or by looking at numbers. He's doing it his way, it's just that this year his way hasn't always been what is best for for the team.

champagne030
09-19-2006, 11:01 AM
I have no hard evidence for my theory. I just know that if all of us here on a fan board can see that Mackowiak is a liability in center field, so can Ozzie. Clearly something more is going on than meets the eye. I read all these posts from people who think it's just that Ozzie is stupid and can't see that Anderson is a better defensive player than Mackowiak, and I just don't buy it.

It's just that a rookie who has accomplished exactly nothing in his career cannot be allowed to think he will be in the lineup every day because there is no other option. The only thing I could think of is refusing to try what the coaches want him to try, so he sits.

I've been through it on another level. I coach the women's NCAA bowling team here at the university. Last year, a player who was arguably the best bowler on the team on a given day absolutely refused to do anything that we coaches wanted her to do, ranging from technical changes that could have made her more consistent to simple team discipline issues. She thought that her natural talent made her irreplaceable. After several meetings trying to get her to go along with the program, she was off the team before the end of the season. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet. No one is irreplaceable.

I don't know. I understand what your saying, but BA hangs with PK on the road quite a bit. Wouldn't you think the captain of the team, given the title by Ozzie, would have some influence over Brian?

Also, no disrespect, but I think MLB and your bowling team are different. You'll sacrifice a season to keep rules of the program intact. Even if you are correct about BA, IMO, that would be something dealt with after the season. Ala, Marte. You don't deny Thome a chance at a ring so you can make an example out of BA....Again, IMO.

Flight #24
09-19-2006, 11:05 AM
There's no way a Rookie should've been STARTING in such an important position as CF for a team in such a tight pennant race that is trying to defend a World Championship on top of that.



CF is such an important position because of D. Offensively, it's the same as the other positions in importance. BA plays great D - which makes him perfect for that role. As for "breaking in" a rookie as a starter on a title contender, that happens all the time, from Jenks last year to Robinson Cano for the Yanks last year and Papelbon/Liriano/Bonser for the BoSox/Twins this year.

Teams that stay at the top do just that - break in a rookie or 2 every year and do it by letting them focus on the things that translate easily to the bigs (i.e., D). They hide them from the harder areas to adjust to - kind of like how BA batted 8th or 9th all year. The problem wasn't BA, it was the rest of the team that collapsed and made them more sensitive to his rookie struggles on O (and even those came around after the ASB).

kobo
09-19-2006, 11:08 AM
I'm not saying don't look at the numbers. I'm just saying don't look TOTALLY at the numbers. What is BA doing for the TEAM as far as hitting goes?

Mackowiak isn't the answer in CF. Neither is BA. I don't like playing the blame game but, KW is the one who put Ozzie in the situation of having to choose between BA or RM.

There's no way a Rookie should've been STARTING in such an important position as CF for a team in such a tight pennant race that is trying to defend a World Championship on top of that.

It puts too much pressure on the player (BA) and the manager as well.

For that I blame KW for putting Ozzie in that position and not giving him better options other than BA or Mackowiak.
Why do you continue to blame BA? You keep saying what BA has done for the TEAM, well, what have any of the other guys done for the TEAM in the second half? You said that BA shouldn't have been starting for a team in a pennant race, yet at the beginning of this year noone was expecting the pitching to struggle like it has and the Tigers to have jumped out of the gate like they did. Defensively, BA is the best option in CF. Offensively, he had a horrible first half, but he has been one of the more consistent hitters in the second half. You talk about strikeouts, tell me, how many time has Thome struck out the second half? Where have Thome, Konerko, and AJ been in the second half?

This team as a whole has been consistent in one area this season, and that is playing inconsistently. It's not fair to single out 1 or 2 players as a reason why the Sox are in the position they are in right now. It all starts with the manager, and noone on this team should be given a pass right now or be made a martyr.

Thome25
09-19-2006, 11:16 AM
Why do you continue to blame BA? You keep saying what BA has done for the TEAM, well, what have any of the other guys done for the TEAM in the second half? You said that BA shouldn't have been starting for a team in a pennant race, yet at the beginning of this year noone was expecting the pitching to struggle like it has and the Tigers to have jumped out of the gate like they did. Defensively, BA is the best option in CF. Offensively, he had a horrible first half, but he has been one of the more consistent hitters in the second half. You talk about strikeouts, tell me, how many time has Thome struck out the second half? Where have Thome, Konerko, and AJ been in the second half?

This team as a whole has been consistent in one area this season, and that is playing inconsistently. It's not fair to single out 1 or 2 players as a reason why the Sox are in the position they are in right now. It all starts with the manager, and noone on this team should be given a pass right now or be made a martyr.

No it doesn't start with the manager. Can Ozzie go out there and pitch, hit and field for these guys?

If we're going to blame anyone for the way this team has played this year it starts and ends with the players. It's not Ozzie's fault they've played so poorly.

Thome and Konerko are going to get their fair share of strikeouts. Power hitters generally do strike out alot.

I'm not peronally blaming BA. he under-performed this season. Not much was expected of him because he's a rookie but we as a contending team should never have had a rookie starting in a key position in the first place.

Thome25
09-19-2006, 11:19 AM
CF is such an important position because of D. Offensively, it's the same as the other positions in importance. BA plays great D - which makes him perfect for that role. As for "breaking in" a rookie as a starter on a title contender, that happens all the time, from Jenks last year to Robinson Cano for the Yanks last year and Papelbon/Liriano/Bonser for the BoSox/Twins this year.

Teams that stay at the top do just that - break in a rookie or 2 every year and do it by letting them focus on the things that translate easily to the bigs (i.e., D). They hide them from the harder areas to adjust to - kind of like how BA batted 8th or 9th all year. The problem wasn't BA, it was the rest of the team that collapsed and made them more sensitive to his rookie struggles on O (and even those came around after the ASB).

Jenks wasn't put in that role in the beginning like BA was. He was in there because the Sox had no other option at midseason because Hermanson went down with an injury.

The Yankees started Cano but where has that gotten them? They haven't won it in 6 years. He was thrown in there because the Yankees had no other options when they traded Soriano for AROD. The Twins haven't won anything since 1991.

IMO it's not a good idea to start rookies in key positions in a pennant race.

daveeym
09-19-2006, 11:21 AM
I have no hard evidence for my theory. I just know that if all of us here on a fan board can see that Mackowiak is a liability in center field, so can Ozzie. Clearly something more is going on than meets the eye. I read all these posts from people who think it's just that Ozzie is stupid and can't see that Anderson is a better defensive player than Mackowiak, and I just don't buy it.

It's just that a rookie who has accomplished exactly nothing in his career cannot be allowed to think he will be in the lineup every day because there is no other option. The only thing I could think of is refusing to try what the coaches want him to try, so he sits.

I've been through it on another level. I coach the women's NCAA bowling team here at the university. Last year, a player who was arguably the best bowler on the team on a given day absolutely refused to do anything that we coaches wanted her to do, ranging from technical changes that could have made her more consistent to simple team discipline issues. She thought that her natural talent made her irreplaceable. After several meetings trying to get her to go along with the program, she was off the team before the end of the season. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet. No one is irreplaceable. Sounds like you're describing Uribe there not BA. BA looks like he tries to adjust but that it doesn't always translate over well. Uribe looks like he's just uribe being uribe.

kobo
09-19-2006, 11:36 AM
No it doesn't start with the manager. Can Ozzie go out there and pitch, hit and field for these guys?


Then we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Because I think it does start with the manager. Remember, Ozzie is the guy who "makes the ****ing lineups." He got a lot of credit last year for the passion and intensity he brought to the team, and for being able to fire the team up when needed. This year, it hasn't been that way. I'm sorry, I can't give Ozzie a pass on this season just because he doesn't go out and hit, pitch, or field. He can't control how his players perform, but he does control who starts, when he brings in relief pitchers, and other various moves made throughout the course of a game.

0o0o0
09-19-2006, 11:46 AM
Then we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Because I think it does start with the manager. Remember, Ozzie is the guy who "makes the ****ing lineups." He got a lot of credit last year for the passion and intensity he brought to the team, and for being able to fire the team up when needed. This year, it hasn't been that way. I'm sorry, I can't give Ozzie a pass on this season just because he doesn't go out and hit, pitch, or field. He can't control how his players perform, but he does control who starts, when he brings in relief pitchers, and other various moves made throughout the course of a game.

I agree with this. It's unfortunate that the players should even need to be fired up or motivated by Ozzie. But they did, and they weren't.

Jaffar
09-19-2006, 12:02 PM
Anderson Defense
FPCT .997 2nd in AL behind Granderson(including unqulaified players 40th)
RF 2.99 2nd in AL behind Gathright(including unqulaified players 19th)
ZR .884 5th in AL behind Patterson, Wells, Sizemore, Granderson(including unqulaified players 29th)

Mackowiak Defense
FPCT .967 57th in AL (including unqualified players)
RF 2.46 46th in AL (including unqulaified players)
ZR .807 48thth in AL (including unqulaified players)

I'm still trying to figure out why Mack is the better option.

Team offensive stats
Avg .283 4th in AL
Obp .344 6th in AL
Slg .465 1st in AL
Ops .809 4th in AL
HR 218 1st in AL
Rbi 787 2nd in AL

I don't think offense was the problem.

Thome25
09-19-2006, 12:08 PM
I'm getting a headache from all of this Ozzie hate/BA lovefest. Thank god it's football season. Hopefully the Bears continue to do well so I can forget all about this.

My head hurts. Is it basketball season yet?

Martinigirl
09-19-2006, 12:09 PM
From whitesox.com:

"Am I happy with Brian? Well, not really,I thought he would be better, at least give me better at-bats. I didn't expect him to hit .350, but I expected him to give me better at-bats." -- Ozzie Guillen to whitesox.com

"Suffice to say, I wasn't very happy with the plan we had against him, we, above anybody, should know how to pitch to him. But it's over and done with. You have to tip your hat to Frank for rising up to a big game for his team and the occasion." -- Kenny Williams to whitesox.com

Gang it's going to be a VERY interesting off season. Brian is apparently so deep in Ozzie's doghouse that you probably should give him a collar and a food bowl. I don't think it's outrageous to think that he gets traded.

Lip

For all those who keep saying Ozzie's treatment of Brian isn't personal, they are giving Ozzie way to much credit for his maturity and professionalism. Ozzie doesn't bitch about any other player the way he does BA, not even ones that really seem to deserve it. And I know BA seems like a cocky kid, but he is still a kid and this could really screw him up for a career. The support in the beginning of the season was the best way to go. This current direction, or ripping BA constantly, is a joke and could prove to be very costly in the development of a player we want around for years.

CLR01
09-19-2006, 12:15 PM
Nobody has said he's a better option at any level. Stick to arguing with the points actually made.



Ozzie hasn't come out and said Mack is going to play because he needs to play the guy(Mack) who gives his team the best chance to win? I know I've seen that quote, or one like it, more than a few times this season. The last just a week or two ago. There have been people here who have said the exact same as Ozzie. Go back and read one of 100 CF debates that has played out here this season.

JB98
09-19-2006, 12:17 PM
Love? He's a 5-tool, former 1st round pick, from a big time college program, who is as good a defensive centerfielder [an extremely important position] as there is in the AL. He has succeeded at all levels of baseball and - but for the first half of this year - he's starting to figure out major league pitching too.

Two names come to mind when I look back at BA's rookie year - ROBIN VENTURA AND JOE CREDE. Crede struggled for 3 years and Robin had a horrible 1st half of his rookie year.

I have no doubt BA will be an all-star caliber outfielder for some time.

I'm sick of Guillen calling people out in public.

And I woke up calm and reflective hoping for 2007. Now, I'm pissed

Sorry, but BA doesn't remind me of either Ventura or Crede. He definitely has a different personality type than either of those two. It's too early to speak so certainly about BA's development. Instead of being a Ventura or a Crede, he could be a Chris Snopek.

JB98
09-19-2006, 12:37 PM
I don't, but if someone who disagreed with a mod or higher-up said anything like that he'd be gone in a minute.

Baloney. I've been arguing with CLR01 for months about Anderson. :D:

To me, the bottom line on this discussion is we didn't have a major-league CF in 2006, and it cost us. Anderson wasn't ready for major-league pitching, and he was brutal for most of the first half. Mackowiak is a solid veteran utility guy and a decent offensive player, but he was hopelessly miscast as an alternative in CF.

People can criticize Ozzie all they want, but he was choosing between two subpar options in CF throughout most of the year. That's not acceptable, and KW must take steps to fix it. I don't mind keeping Anderson and having him in the mix next year, but if he wants to be the everyday CF, he has to EARN IT with his play in winter ball and spring training. And I want a veteran outfielder brought in to push him next spring. And I mean a legitimate outfielder, not a utility guy such as Mackowiak.

CaptainBallz
09-19-2006, 12:39 PM
The Anderson "issue" has been a giant stain on an already horribly stained season.

The fact of the matter is, whatever personal/professional/rearing issues that have gone on between the staff and Anderson, having him ride the pine so ridiculously often without a reasonable alternative to play in CF HAS HURT THE TEAM.

That is something that is inexcusable during the season, especially if no moves were made to reconcile the situation.

If there are issues of ego and attitude problems, they need to be handled in the offseason and off the field. How fair is that to Mackowiack to throw him under the bus to teach BA a lesson?! It's just plain absurd.

jenn2080
09-19-2006, 12:45 PM
Ozzie hasn't come out and said Mack is going to play because he needs to play the guy(Mack) who gives his team the best chance to win? I know I've seen that quote, or one like it, more than a few times this season. The last just a week or two ago. There have been people here who have said the exact same as Ozzie. Go back and read one of 100 CF debates that has played out here this season.


I think it was Fri or Saturday. I saw that article also.

soxtalker
09-19-2006, 12:49 PM
Has KW made any comments recently regarding BA?

JB98
09-19-2006, 01:12 PM
Has KW made any comments recently regarding BA?

None that I've read. It would be interesting to know his thoughts. If I were a reporter covering the Sox, I think I'd ask KW about the CF situation. As I've indicated, I consider the position to be a major weakness and one of the downfalls of the 2006 team.

champagne030
09-19-2006, 01:13 PM
Baloney. I've been arguing with CLR01 for months about Anderson. :D:

To me, the bottom line on this discussion is we didn't have a major-league CF in 2006, and it cost us. Anderson wasn't ready for major-league pitching, and he was brutal for most of the first half. Mackowiak is a solid veteran utility guy and a decent offensive player, but he was hopelessly miscast as an alternative in CF.

People can criticize Ozzie all they want, but he was choosing between two subpar options in CF throughout most of the year. That's not acceptable, and KW must take steps to fix it. I don't mind keeping Anderson and having him in the mix next year, but if he wants to be the everyday CF, he has to EARN IT with his play in winter ball and spring training. And I want a veteran outfielder brought in to push him next spring. And I mean a legitimate outfielder, not a utility guy such as Mackowiak.

I agree that we should have had a backup plan for BA and we didn't. That's on KW. The part that really pisses me off is that BA should've been playing 90-95% of the games since mid-June. Ozzie and his stupid lefty/righty crap and blantant disregard for defense prevented that from happening.

Lip Man 1
09-19-2006, 01:22 PM
The only info that I have on this is where a few weeks ago Kenny was on that weekend Sox radio show and maybe the comment about 'discussing' with Ozzie why BA wasn't playing everyday and that after Ozzie gave his reasons he had to 'respect' Ozzie's right as manager to make out the lineup as he saw fit.

To me there is obviously some sort of disagreement between the two over this.

Lip

daveeym
09-19-2006, 01:53 PM
The only info that I have on this is where a few weeks ago Kenny was on that weekend Sox radio show and maybe the comment about 'discussing' with Ozzie why BA wasn't playing everyday and that after Ozzie gave his reasons he had to 'respect' Ozzie's right as manager to make out the lineup as he saw fit.

To me there is obviously some sort of disagreement between the two over this.

Lip
I think there's a lot of disagreement between the two of them over a lot of things. KW's been very quiet regarding any disagreements but he's made enough comments acknowledging that they are out there.

maurice
09-19-2006, 02:01 PM
To those who think that there is some hidden, rational reason why Ozzie doesn't play BA:

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. Ozzie's feelings about anything are absurdly transparent. He doesn't keep anything in the clubhouse. He regularly throws players (including Anderson) under the bus for any number of "reasons." Thus, there is no reason to doubt that Ozzie actually believes 100% of the BS he says about Anderson, Mackowiak, etc. His comments are not rational but, IMO, he truly feels that way.

It appears from reading through this thread that you're constructing a theory from thin air because you insist on assuming that Ozzie is rational. I can't share your assumption.

SOXandILLINI
09-19-2006, 02:08 PM
i am soooo glad to see most of the white sox nation finally come to their senses in regard to our manager. this, ozzie is ozzie stuff, wore out even faster than i thought. he's an embarrassment to the organization and will end up with the bob brenleys of the world in the history of managers that won a ws.

The Dude
09-19-2006, 02:08 PM
I'm getting a headache from all of this Ozzie hate/BA lovefest. Thank god it's football season. Hopefully the Bears continue to do well so I can forget all about this.

My head hurts. Is it basketball season yet?

Wow, i just got back from school and checked out this thread again. If anyone is to blame for your headache it's you Thome25.:tongue: You've gone in circles with 20 odd posts over the past 5 pages!

Let me sum up my ideas as well as a good chunk of posters here:

-Ozzie was great for us when we were winning.
-Ozzie doesn't seem to be able to handle us when we're losing.
-Ozzie will let personal issues get in the way of his ability to manage a team to the best of his abilities.
-Ozzie has no basis for playing Mack in CF as much as he does for either offense or defense reasons.
-Mack is a solid utility player but is not stong at the position he plays most.
-Ozzie has stuck with struggling young players from Crede, Garland, Jenks (initially),and McCarthy. He's also stuck with struggling vets ala Thome (2nd half 06), Dye (1st half 05), Uribe (2 & 1/2 years now), (politte 06 - WAY too long), Cotts (06)....the list goes on.
-I don't think anyone is claiming we'd be in first with BA in CF each day.
-It's important, however, that BA should play as much as possible to give us the best chance of winning each game.

Bottom line, Ozzie will do much better as a manager when he: stops playing Mack in CF, gets a productive leadoff hitter, and has a bullpen & starting staff he can rely on.

Now most of that is easier said than done, but the first suggestion is the easiest to fix.:D:

SOXandILLINI
09-19-2006, 02:20 PM
i was on record about ozzie from day 1, and took mucho heat for it... now, not so much, but he still has his defenders.

Lillian
09-19-2006, 04:14 PM
There has been some criticism here of Ozzie's use of his bench players.
I think that their combined performance suggests that he knows how to use them. Gload, Ozuna and Mackowiak are all hitting very well, so unless they would be doing even better, playing full time, or at different times. Even Cintron seems to have been put in good positions to succeed. It's hard to fault Oz for his decisions about when to use them.

The one obvious exception to this general pattern of success, is Ozzie's misuse of Rob in CF, where he is clearly out of position. That coupled with the fact that B. A. has had a good second half, is indeed very puzzling.

On another point, it is interesting that we have had such a terrible second half, while Brian was doing very well. He certainly can't be blamed for our poor record since the All Star break.

Gavin
09-19-2006, 04:20 PM
I think it's fairly clear that Brian Anderson slept with Ozzie's wife.

DickAllen72
09-19-2006, 04:52 PM
**** ozzie and his ****ing Anderson hate. Maybe if he played him more instead ****ty defense oaklawn brian would have had a bit better at bats. :angry: :angry: :angry:
You're beginning to see the true Ozzie.

DickAllen72
09-19-2006, 05:04 PM
To those who think that there is some hidden, rational reason why Ozzie doesn't play BA:

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. Ozzie's feelings about anything are absurdly transparent. He doesn't keep anything in the clubhouse. He regularly throws players (including Anderson) under the bus for any number of "reasons." Thus, there is no reason to doubt that Ozzie actually believes 100% of the BS he says about Anderson, Mackowiak, etc. His comments are not rational but, IMO, he truly feels that way.

It appears from reading through this thread that you're constructing a theory from thin air because you insist on assuming that Ozzie is rational. I can't share your assumption.
Good post.

DickAllen72
09-19-2006, 05:08 PM
Let me sum up my ideas as well as a good chunk of posters here:

-Ozzie was great for us when we were winning.
-Ozzie doesn't seem to be able to handle us when we're losing.
-Ozzie will let personal issues get in the way of his ability to manage a team to the best of his abilities.
-Ozzie has no basis for playing Mack in CF as much as he does for either offense or defense reasons.
-Mack is a solid utility player but is not stong at the position he plays most.
-Ozzie has stuck with struggling young players from Crede, Garland, Jenks (initially),and McCarthy. He's also stuck with struggling vets ala Thome (2nd half 06), Dye (1st half 05), Uribe (2 & 1/2 years now), (politte 06 - WAY too long), Cotts (06)....the list goes on.
-I don't think anyone is claiming we'd be in first with BA in CF each day.
-It's important, however, that BA should play as much as possible to give us the best chance of winning each game.

Bottom line, Ozzie will do much better as a manager when he: stops playing Mack in CF, gets a productive leadoff hitter, and has a bullpen & starting staff he can rely on.

Now most of that is easier said than done, but the first suggestion is the easiest to fix.:D:

Excellent summary.

we be jake
09-19-2006, 05:13 PM
It's a shame. The kid has a ton of personality.

If you watch him during batting pratice, he has a warm demeanor, is fan friendly also. He acts like he is enjoying his good fortune and the game.

Maybe Ozzie wants to wipe that smile off his face.

I would rather see him traded than for him to lose his zest for the game and his job.

We could use more guys with this sort of fan appeal and personality.
Did you ever try to talk to Ozzie? Good luck.He was really rude to me and my son years ago when we spoke to him at BP, when he was a player.All I said was "Ozzie you da man". He shot us a withering glare and mumbled something like "who the ____ are these people. It would have taken nothing to smile and say "hi". My boy was about 10 years old at the time.
We have remained steadfast Sox fans because MY (our) love for this team started way before Ozzie and will last when he is just an enigmatic memory.

SoxShirt
09-19-2006, 05:40 PM
I don't think Brian has been a problem. (At least not in the second half) No one in the line up is hitting right now. BA isn't playing that bad, but a lot of other players aren't hitting like they should be (Thome, Konerko, Crede...) which makes Brian look as if he's also playing like ****. I really hope he's back next year.

caulfield12
09-19-2006, 06:18 PM
From whitesox.com:

"Am I happy with Brian? Well, not really,I thought he would be better, at least give me better at-bats. I didn't expect him to hit .350, but I expected him to give me better at-bats." -- Ozzie Guillen to whitesox.com

"Suffice to say, I wasn't very happy with the plan we had against him, we, above anybody, should know how to pitch to him. But it's over and done with. You have to tip your hat to Frank for rising up to a big game for his team and the occasion." -- Kenny Williams to whitesox.com

Gang it's going to be a VERY interesting off season. Brian is apparently so deep in Ozzie's doghouse that you probably should give him a collar and a food bowl. I don't think it's outrageous to think that he gets traded.

Lip

KW didn't trade four players so he could turn around and trade Anderson too.

Odds are, BA will be around longer than Guillen and maybe longer than KW.

Especially after he's pledged to work on his steals and "small ball" game this year in Venezuela with Razor Shines overseeing him. I just don't see them going "Corey Patterson" on him yet, and the expectations have never been at that height, that he was some type of savior of the franchise...not even Sweeney or Fields or McCarthy are laboring under that pressure.

Somebody does have to explain the wacky pitches called, the pitchers' poor location, walking the wrong hitters in the wrong situations, 0-2 hits, too many hits allowed with 2 outs, too many errors and defensive misplays not "pitched over" as Hawk likes to say.

The entire coaching staff and pitching staff are accountable on that front.

I think KW's goal will be to put another staff together that can put up a sub 4.00 ERA. If that falls into place, the offense isn't as much of a worry.

And speed...kills....not just the drug. And it never slumps. Unless it's tippy-toeing through the outfield with two hernia operations in its past.

SOXandILLINI
09-19-2006, 06:19 PM
We could use more guys with this sort of fan appeal and personality.
Did you ever try to talk to Ozzie? Good luck.He was really rude to me and my son years ago when we spoke to him at BP, when he was a player.All I said was "Ozzie you da man". He shot us a withering glare and mumbled something like "who the ____ are these people. It would have taken nothing to smile and say "hi". My boy was about 10 years old at the time.
We have remained steadfast Sox fans because MY (our) love for this team started way before Ozzie and will last when he is just an enigmatic memory.
i find this very hard to believe, ozzie is a man of the people....:rolleyes:

southwstchi4life
09-19-2006, 06:26 PM
BA is pretty cocky. Listen to him in interviews w/ him. I believe Mike North put it the best when he and the score 670 were in detroit. He said Brian Anderson walks around here as if he was a 320 hitter. No room for arogence. Ozzie is all about old school baseball. He is a rookie and if he walks around the locker room all cocky and arogent, he should be put in his place. Hes a rookie. I like him, he is a good player (will be in the future), but from the little us fans see personality wise, I think someone needs to humble this guy. Thats what Ozzie is doing.

caulfield12
09-19-2006, 06:33 PM
BA is pretty cocky. Listen to him in interviews w/ him. I believe Mike North put it the best when he and the score 670 were in detroit. He said Brian Anderson walks around here as if he was a 320 hitter. No room for arogence. Ozzie is all about old school baseball. He is a rookie and if he walks around the locker room all cocky and arogent, he should be put in his place. Hes a rookie. I like him, he is a good player (will be in the future), but from the little us fans see personality wise, I think someone needs to humble this guy. Thats what Ozzie is doing.

Well, if he wasn't humbled by this season, nothing will. It's also one of his strengths and was the reason KW decided it wouldn't hurt him to stay on the big league club, despite the .150's average.

However, too many confuse the aloofness of an Anderson, Garland or Garcia and think they don't care like a Rowand or Ozuna because they're not expressing their emotions or diving all around the field. In general, fans prefer players who look like they're working hard instead of those who do things effortlessly. We always will prefer Jenks or MacDougal types to a Thornton who throws the same speed and doesn't break a sweat.

JB98
09-19-2006, 06:36 PM
Well, if he wasn't humbled by this season, nothing will. It's also one of his strengths and was the reason KW decided it wouldn't hurt him to stay on the big league club, despite the .150's average.

However, too many confuse the aloofness of an Anderson, Garland or Garcia and think they don't care like a Rowand or Ozuna because they're not expressing their emotions or diving all around the field. In general, fans prefer players who look like they're working hard instead of those who do things effortlessly. We always will prefer Jenks or MacDougal types to a Thornton who throws the same speed and doesn't break a sweat.

Personally, I prefer players who produce. I don't give a damn what their demeanor is. I've always been a huge Garland fan. BA, not so much.

caulfield12
09-19-2006, 06:40 PM
Personally, I prefer players who produce. I don't give a damn what their demeanor is. I've always been a huge Garland fan. BA, not so much.

Hey, if the game goes awry tonight, there's always Dancing with the Stars. You can see an entire routine in the time it takes for Garcia to work to one batter.

JB98
09-19-2006, 06:51 PM
Hey, if the game goes awry tonight, there's always Dancing with the Stars. You can see an entire routine in the time it takes for Garcia to work to one batter.

No, I'm working tonight. If the game goes awry, I'll just stop slacking and get some work done.

champagne030
09-19-2006, 08:04 PM
BA is pretty cocky. Listen to him in interviews w/ him. I believe Mike North put it the best when he and the score 670 were in detroit. He said Brian Anderson walks around here as if he was a 320 hitter. No room for arogence. Ozzie is all about old school baseball. He is a rookie and if he walks around the locker room all cocky and arogent, he should be put in his place. Hes a rookie. I like him, he is a good player (will be in the future), but from the little us fans see personality wise, I think someone needs to humble this guy. Thats what Ozzie is doing.

I don't buy the cocky thing (he's young and confindent - there's a difference between confidence and cockiness)....The only thing Mike North does best is go to a commercial break. Anyway, humble him during the winter, not at the expense of getting a ring for the other 24 players on the team.

champagne030
09-19-2006, 08:05 PM
Personally, I prefer players who produce. I don't give a damn what their demeanor is. I've always been a huge Garland fan. BA, not so much.

I understand not being happy with BA through mid-June. What's not to be happy with for a rookie since mid-June?

CLR01
09-19-2006, 08:17 PM
The only thing Mike North does best is go to a commercial break.



:roflmao::rolling:

JB98
09-19-2006, 10:03 PM
I understand not being happy with BA through mid-June. What's not to be happy with for a rookie since mid-June?

Offensively, what does he do well? He doesn't steal bases. He doesn't hit for power. He doesn't take many walks. He doesn't work counts. He can't bunt. He's had two clutch, run-producing hits that I can think of all season.

jongarlandlover
09-19-2006, 10:13 PM
I truly do not understand what Ozzie has against Brian. It seems to me that Brian's been working his butt off to get better and improve, but he gets on acknowledgement for his work. Ozzie just keeps trotting Macko out there. This team is built on pitching and defense? Then it's just contradictory when you keep throwing out a team that is certainly not your best defense.

SoxShirt
09-19-2006, 10:24 PM
Offensively, what does he do well? He doesn't steal bases. He doesn't hit for power. He doesn't take many walks. He doesn't work counts. He can't bunt. He's had two clutch, run-producing hits that I can think of all season.
Is it just me, or does BA hit a lot of doubles? I can't remember the last time I've seen him get a base hit, but iirc, in the last few games, he has gotten a few doubles.

kobo
09-19-2006, 10:27 PM
Offensively, what does he do well? He doesn't steal bases. He doesn't hit for power. He doesn't take many walks. He doesn't work counts. He can't bunt. He's had two clutch, run-producing hits that I can think of all season.
I must have missed that memo in the off season that said BA was the second coming of Frank Thomas. Can you get me a copy of that?

JB98
09-19-2006, 10:30 PM
I must have missed that memo in the off season that said BA was the second coming of Frank Thomas. Can you get me a copy of that?


Obviously, I expected .300/30/100 out of BA.

Actually, if he could get bunts down, advance runners, and get an occasional clutch hit I'd be satisfied.

guillen4life13
09-19-2006, 11:48 PM
I'll say right here that I haven't read the whole thread. I got up to the fifth page, when it started repeating itself...

I see where everyone who has posted is coming from. And my opinion is a composite thereof.

I believe that Ozzie should have played Brian Anderson because it is in the team's best interests. Ozzie's job is to make moves that will win games, provided he does not hurt his players. He's getting a nice paycheck to do that.

If Brian is disobeying or doing something he shouldn't be doing, then he and Greg Walker or KW can let him know that without using the press. That's where Ozzie is ticking me off with this. You don't show up a player, especially a rookie who hasn't even earned the credibility to defend himself yet.

FWIW, Anderson saw last year and saw the looseness and camaraderie of the team, and I believe that he has tried to preserve that in some way. Remember last year's playoffs? He wasn't even on the playoff roster, but he was probably the most energetic, involved guy in that dugout. You could truly see the excitement! Maybe he has been a little naive this year to think that he alone could preserve that (again, all based on my beliefs of what was going on), so he acted on it in the wrong ways (punching Mabry, for example). I agree with the motive, but not the action. I think it's cool that he's that involved in that aspect, at least. And he seems like a joker.

If you need to be really stern with Brian, all you need to do is let him know that the team is not afraid to deal for a replacement or bring up Sweeney to take his position. The press does not need to be involved.

As for Ozzie, for once in his life he needs to learn to shut his yapper. I don't care what he thinks or says behind closed doors. That's his and the team's business. I don't believe he has any business calling out players through the media. He's seriously starting to remind me of some professional wrestling skits, where he's trying to show how macho he is by doing ripping his players. If he has a problem with specific players, he needs to take it up with them without the help of a microphone. If he wants to call out the team as a whole, or at least a segment of the team (i.e. the 'pen), that's fine. Not specific players. The players deserve a little more respect from their boss than that.

guillen4life13
09-20-2006, 12:01 AM
Thome25:

You say it's alright for PK and Thome to K because they're power hitters. Okay. I understand that logic.

So what about those who are underperforming much more than BA?

I'm talking about Pods and Uribe. You haven't even addressed them.

Ozzie is a very, very passionate person. We've seen enough to know that. By now we should also know that, even in our own lives, passion does not always yield rational decisions. In fact, it often does the exact opposite. And that's Ozzie's biggest flaw right now.

SABRSox
09-20-2006, 12:14 AM
Obviously, I expected .300/30/100 out of BA.

Actually, if he could get bunts down, advance runners, and get an occasional clutch hit I'd be satisfied.

Ditto for Pods, Uribe, Mackowiak, etc.

CLR01
09-20-2006, 12:39 AM
Is it just me, or does BA hit a lot of doubles? I can't remember the last time I've seen him get a base hit, but iirc, in the last few games, he has gotten a few doubles.



Anderson is a doubles machine. Project his numbers to 500 AB's (503) and he would have 35 good for top 20 in the AL and top 45 in MLB.


Player AB 2b
Crede 515 31
Konerko 534 28
Dye 509 27
Uribe 436 26
Pods 496 25
Thome 462 23
Anderson 335 23
Iguchi 523 23
AJ 482 21
Ozuna 176 10
Mack 242 9
Cintron 265 8
Gload 135 7
Sandy 40 3

Realist
09-20-2006, 03:52 AM
If the bullpen and Podsednik were playing the way they're supposed to be playing, Ozzie would still be a genius and we'd all be trying to figure out what it is about Anderson's work ethic that seems to really piss Ozzie off so much.

Grzegorz
09-20-2006, 04:37 AM
I am sure that this season, in addition to winter ball will ground BA. I just believe the guy has talent and that Ozzie seems to be feeding off his own ability to hear himself talk in the press.

Ozzie was wrong for trashing Garland for his failure hit a batter and he's wrong for dragging BA through the press.

Oh, for all of those believing that BA is aloof and arrogant to the point of alienating his teammates remember that little scrap involving AJ & Barrett? Who was one of the first guys off the bench to enter the fray? That's right, the arrogant, cocky, out for himself at the expense of his teammates Brian Anderson.

If he's out of line discipline him. BA should have to work his behind off, that's a given. Please don't bully the kid because he's an easy target.

wdelaney72
09-20-2006, 08:15 AM
BA is nothing. He has done nothing for us. He will probably be another "flash in the pan" prospect the likes of Jeff Abbott and Joe Borchard.


I don't mean to butt-in your "discussion", but this is flat out wrong and premature. This is Brian's first full season. It took Crede, Garland, and others a lot more than one. I don't know about all-star appearances and MVP awards, but Brian has shown that he's got talent and my prove to be a solid CF in the big leagues. He needs more time and ABs. Thank you,though, for bringing up Jeff Abbott... I almost spit my coffee all over myself from laughing.

GoSox2K3
09-20-2006, 08:18 AM
Anderson is a doubles machine. Project his numbers to 500 AB's (503) and he would have 35 good for top 20 in the AL and top 45 in MLB.


Player AB 2b
Crede 515 31
Konerko 534 28
Dye 509 27
Uribe 436 26
Pods 496 25
Thome 462 23
Anderson 335 23
Iguchi 523 23
AJ 482 21
Ozuna 176 10
Mack 242 9
Cintron 265 8
Gload 135 7
Sandy 40 3



BA is nothing. He has done nothing for us. He will probably be another "flash in the pan" prospect the likes of Jeff Abbott and Joe Borchard.



:?: Yeah, let's get rid of that great fielding CF who hits a ton of doubles - we all know they're a dime-a-dozen. We should have absolutely no tolerance for rookie mistakes and his hitting .290 since June is just not good enough. We instead should bankrupt our farm system to obtain a veteran CF who will eat up more of our payroll and may be only slightly better than BA next year.

That statement in bold - that really has a great potential to be a classic. It could be in other people's signatures for years to come. Just like Shoota's comments about Crede.

Jaffar
09-20-2006, 08:48 AM
He's had two clutch, run-producing hits that I can think of all season.

With runners on base in 133 AB's he has 28 RBI, 14 walks, and a .241 avg.
Situational, runners on 2nd and 3rd, he has 10 AB's, 13 RBI, 2 walks, and a .500 avg.
Runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs, 17 AB's, 16 RBI, 2 walks, .353 avg.
His overall runners in scoring postion stats, 77 AB's, 26 RBI, 9 walks, .208 avg.

I wish I had the time to take his april/may numbers out and look at it or just his second half.

jenn2080
09-20-2006, 08:59 AM
With runners on base in 133 AB's he has 28 RBI, 14 walks, and a .241 avg.
Situational, runners on 2nd and 3rd, he has 10 AB's, 13 RBI, 2 walks, and a .500 avg.
Runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs, 17 AB's, 16 RBI, 2 walks, .353 avg.
His overall runners in scoring postion stats, 77 AB's, 26 RBI, 9 walks, .208 avg.

I wish I had the time to take his april/may numbers out and look at it or just his second half.


It is too bad he sucks though. This kids career is over. Wrap him up with a big red bow.

Frater Perdurabo
09-20-2006, 09:00 AM
I'll say right here that I haven't read the whole thread. I got up to the fifth page, when it started repeating itself...

I see where everyone who has posted is coming from. And my opinion is a composite thereof.

I believe that Ozzie should have played Brian Anderson because it is in the team's best interests. Ozzie's job is to make moves that will win games, provided he does not hurt his players. He's getting a nice paycheck to do that.

If Brian is disobeying or doing something he shouldn't be doing, then he and Greg Walker or KW can let him know that without using the press. That's where Ozzie is ticking me off with this. You don't show up a player, especially a rookie who hasn't even earned the credibility to defend himself yet.

FWIW, Anderson saw last year and saw the looseness and camaraderie of the team, and I believe that he has tried to preserve that in some way. Remember last year's playoffs? He wasn't even on the playoff roster, but he was probably the most energetic, involved guy in that dugout. You could truly see the excitement! Maybe he has been a little naive this year to think that he alone could preserve that (again, all based on my beliefs of what was going on), so he acted on it in the wrong ways (punching Mabry, for example). I agree with the motive, but not the action. I think it's cool that he's that involved in that aspect, at least. And he seems like a joker.

If you need to be really stern with Brian, all you need to do is let him know that the team is not afraid to deal for a replacement or bring up Sweeney to take his position. The press does not need to be involved.

As for Ozzie, for once in his life he needs to learn to shut his yapper. I don't care what he thinks or says behind closed doors. That's his and the team's business. I don't believe he has any business calling out players through the media. He's seriously starting to remind me of some professional wrestling skits, where he's trying to show how macho he is by doing ripping his players. If he has a problem with specific players, he needs to take it up with them without the help of a microphone. If he wants to call out the team as a whole, or at least a segment of the team (i.e. the 'pen), that's fine. Not specific players. The players deserve a little more respect from their boss than that.

Gospel. Amen.

Ozzie seems to have contracted the case of oral diarrhea from Paul Konerko. Actually, Ozzie has had "oral diarrhea" for many years. One would think he'd have learned to treat it. Just once I'd like to see someone smash a pie in his face to get him to shut up, especially when he's publicly defecating on one of his players, especially one who plays Gold Glove-caliber defense and is a doubles machine.

Hitmen77
09-20-2006, 09:17 AM
With runners on base in 133 AB's he has 28 RBI, 14 walks, and a .241 avg.
Situational, runners on 2nd and 3rd, he has 10 AB's, 13 RBI, 2 walks, and a .500 avg.
Runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs, 17 AB's, 16 RBI, 2 walks, .353 avg.
His overall runners in scoring postion stats, 77 AB's, 26 RBI, 9 walks, .208 avg.

I wish I had the time to take his april/may numbers out and look at it or just his second half.

He's worthless! Let's dump him and then trade Fields, McCarthy, and Broadway to get a decent CF.

jenn2080
09-20-2006, 09:28 AM
It wasn't just that single post. It's on ongoing theme. The bold and underlined sentences explain the "messed up situation"


The I am cooler and I liked him first is an assumption. You ****ting on Brian is also a poor accusation. You have stats posted right before your eyes and you still insist on going out on limb and saying Brian has done nothing. Clearly he has. I hope Brian is on this team next year when you change your tune.

Thome25
09-20-2006, 09:32 AM
The I am cooler and I liked him first is an assumption. You ****ting on Brian is also a poor accusation. You have stats posted right before your eyes and you still insist on going out on limb and saying Brian has done nothing. Clearly he has. I hope Brian is on this team next year when you change your tune.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong. I want what's best for the Sox and what's best for the Sox is for BA to be a great CF.

It just pisses me off for people to rip on Ozzie who is a life long White Sox player and manager (sorry Baltimore, TB, Atlanta, and Florida didn't count in my book.) over some snot-nosed rookie is ridiculous.

itsnotrequired
09-20-2006, 09:39 AM
It just pisses me off for people to rip on Ozzie who is a life long White Sox player and manager (sorry Baltimore, TB, Atlanta, and Florida didn't count in my book.) over some snot-nosed rookie is ridiculous.

If Ozzie isn't managing up to his potential, he shouldn't be getting a free pass based on past performances. Whether he is performing at his peak is a source of debate but Ozzie is not some type of figure on a pedestal that is not to be questioned or criticized. As the saying goes, "What have you done for me lately?"

You used a similar argument earlier in the year with Pods. Sure, his HR in Game 2 of the WS last year was awesome but that doesn't mean a hill of beans in terms of explaining away a poor 2006 performance.

champagne030
09-20-2006, 09:40 AM
I hope you're right and I'm wrong. I want what's best for the Sox and what's best for the Sox is for BA to be a great CF.

It just pisses me off for people to rip on Ozzie who is a life long White Sox player and manager (sorry Baltimore, TB, Atlanta, and Florida didn't count in my book.) over some snot-nosed rookie is ridiculous.

Details???

Thome25
09-20-2006, 09:42 AM
If Ozzie isn't managing up to his potential, he shouldn't be getting a free pass based on past performances. Whether he is performing at his peak is a source of debate but Ozzie is not some type of figure on a pedestal that is not to be questioned or criticized. As the saying goes, "What have you done for me lately?"

You used a similar argument earlier in the year with Pods. Sure, his HR in Game 2 of the WS last year was awesome but that doesn't mean a hill of beans in terms of explaining away a poor 2006 performance.

Exactly. and OG has done ALOT more for us than BA has. But yet people still defend BA who has done NOTHING for us over Ozzie who has done EVERYTHING for us.

southside rocks
09-20-2006, 09:43 AM
It just pisses me off for people to rip on Ozzie who is a life long White Sox player and manager (sorry Baltimore, TB, Atlanta, and Florida didn't count in my book.) over some snot-nosed rookie is ridiculous.

Well, I haven't waded through a lot of the thread, but I'm with you on this one, totally.

I've been a huge Anderson fan from Opening Day. Heck, I sent the guy a fan letter and got him to autograph a photo, which I then framed -- only like the third time I've ever done that. I've been jabbering all season about Anderson being the Ultra-Plus Ken Berry.

But this recent use of Anderson as a club to bash Ozzie makes no sense to me. Anderson is going to be the reason this team doesn't make the post-season, if they don't?!?! That's just bizarre. I can't find any logic in that. I can see, though, that some people do believe that. :rolleyes:

Ozzie is White Sox to the bone. You can tell just by looking at him that he's dying, watching his guys not get the job done. And not because his managerial record is at stake, but because his heart is in this and he wants his team to win, to swagger, to be the champs.

I loved Ozzie as a player and I love him more as a manager. He said himself, he's still learning this job. I believe that he will be an even better manager with more experience.

And I think it'd be good if the fans had Ozzie's back at this time, instead of going for his throat.

Thome25
09-20-2006, 09:47 AM
Well, I haven't waded through a lot of the thread, but I'm with you on this one, totally.

I've been a huge Anderson fan from Opening Day. Heck, I sent the guy a fan letter and got him to autograph a photo, which I then framed -- only like the third time I've ever done that. I've been jabbering all season about Anderson being the Ultra-Plus Ken Berry.

But this recent use of Anderson as a club to bash Ozzie makes no sense to me. Anderson is going to be the reason this team doesn't make the post-season, if they don't?!?! That's just bizarre. I can't find any logic in that. I can see, though, that some people do believe that. :rolleyes:

Ozzie is White Sox to the bone. You can tell just by looking at him that he's dying, watching his guys not get the job done. And not because his managerial record is at stake, but because his heart is in this and he wants his team to win, to swagger, to be the champs.

I loved Ozzie as a player and I love him more as a manager. He said himself, he's still learning this job. I believe that he will be an even better manager with more experience.

And I think it'd be good if the fans had Ozzie's back at this time, instead of going for his throat.

Perfect post. It's not like I don't want BA to do well. I really hope he will do well. It's just that people should stop choosing the Rookie over the lifer.

itsnotrequired
09-20-2006, 09:51 AM
Exactly. and OG has done ALOT more for us than BA has. But yet people still defend BA who has done NOTHING for us over Ozzie who has done EVERYTHING for us.

You seem to be missing the point. Sure, Ozzie has done more for the Sox than Anderson but so what? It should not be used as an excuse to explain away bad managerial moves for this season. I feel that Ozzie has not managed the Anderson situation as well as he could have. That is a valid criticism. I'm not calling for Ozzie's head or saying he should be fired. Far from it but I'm not going to shrug my shoulders and say "Oh well, at least Ozzie managed a WS winner last year."

jenn2080
09-20-2006, 09:58 AM
Perfect post. It's not like I don't want BA to do well. I really hope he will do well. It's just that people should stop choosing the Rookie over the lifer.

First of all if this is how you feel you should have stated this 6 pages ago. This is the first time you have really said that. Second, I don't think that anyone is picking Brian over Ozzie. And what are we in 4th grade. Come on now. This isn't choosing sides on the playground. Ozzie has managed Anderson very poorly. I don't give a **** if he don't like the kid. Ozzie is suppose to do what is best for the team, and if that means swallowing his pride and putting Anderson out there in center EVERY game then so be it. Everyone will always remember what Ozzie did for us when he played and 2005. Nothing is going to change that. But you can NOT write Anderson off because you are going to throw a tantrum because people are not happy with Ozzie and the way he has handled Anderson. I don't know about you, but everyone is tired of seeing Rob in centerfield. Rob is tired being in centerfield and be made look like an ass. Brian is the best thing for the Sox and center and is only going to get better. He will be our starter next year and we will find a back up for him.

jdm2662
09-20-2006, 09:59 AM
You seem to be missing the point. Sure, Ozzie has done more for the Sox than Anderson but so what? It should not be used as an excuse to explain away bad managerial moves for this season. I feel that Ozzie has not managed the Anderson situation as well as he could have. That is a valid criticism. I'm not calling for Ozzie's head or saying he should be fired. Far from it but I'm not going to shrug my shoulders and say "Oh well, at least Ozzie managed a WS winner last year."

That is exactly what I'm saying. The fact that Ozzie has continued to bench Anderson for a guy who can't play his position despite the fact Anderson is producing just tells me he doesn't like Anderson. All it has done is hurt the team, and I don't care for that. Now, Uribe has been crap most of the year at the plate, has made many mental mistakes in the field, and has a viable back-up. Yet, Ozzie still trots him out there. To me, that's just playing favorites, which is wrong. There are many things Ozzie couldn't control this season, but there are things he can control. He hasn't done the best job this year doing that.

champagne030
09-20-2006, 09:59 AM
Perfect post. It's not like I don't want BA to do well. I really hope he will do well. It's just that people should stop choosing the Rookie over the lifer.

Nobody is choosing the "rookie over the lifer". Ozzie is being ripped because he choose Mack over a clearly superior option in CF.

kobo
09-20-2006, 10:03 AM
Perfect post. It's not like I don't want BA to do well. I really hope he will do well. It's just that people should stop choosing the Rookie over the lifer.
So, we aren't allowed to defend a player who is being thrown under the bus for no apparent reason other than there is some beef we all don't know about between the two? And then we're expected to defend Ozzie, a guy who has made some questionable moves this year, one of them being playing someone who is inadequete in CF therefore sacrificing defense, and be ok with that? I don't give a **** what Ozzie Guillen did last year. For me, last year is over. This year is what I care about, and right now, whether it's because of the players underperforming, Ozzie playing too many matchups or playing people out of position, the Sox find themselves in the position they are in instead of leading the division or Wild Card. You can blame whoever you want for that, I choose to blame the team and that includes Ozzie. I'm not choosing one over the other, they all need to be held accountable. But some of your comments about BA are out of line and ridiculous, and that's what people have been having trouble with.

Thome25
09-20-2006, 10:04 AM
First of all if this is how you feel you should have stated this 6 pages ago. This is the first time you have really said that. Second, I don't think that anyone is picking Brian over Ozzie. And what are we in 4th grade. Come on now. This isn't choosing sides on the playground. Ozzie has managed Anderson very poorly. I don't give a **** if he don't like the kid. Ozzie is suppose to do what is best for the team, and if that means swallowing his pride and putting Anderson out there in center EVERY game then so be it. Everyone will always remember what Ozzie did for us when he played and 2005. Nothing is going to change that. But you can NOT write Anderson off because you are going to throw a tantrum because people are not happy with Ozzie and the way he has handled Anderson. I don't know about you, but everyone is tired of seeing Rob in centerfield. Rob is tired being in centerfield and be made look like an ass. Brian is the best thing for the Sox and center and is only going to get better. He will be our starter next year and we will find a back up for him.

I agree with this post but there was more to it. I stated what I meant earlier. I don't think BA OR RM were the answer in 2006. KW should've gave OG better options and he didn't.

There was more to this than "choosing sides". And you're right. This isn't 4th grade. But, there are certain posters who get on here solely to ridicule people just like it is 4th grade all over again.

Those posters have been called out. It was overdue.

INSox56
09-20-2006, 10:06 AM
Anyone else get a funny feeling remembering this thread and Oz's comments after BA got nailed last night? When they were talking, it didn't seem like they were very friendly to one another...

Paulwny
09-20-2006, 10:10 AM
Without knowing what beef Ozzie has with BA, if he really has one, makes all the taking of sides on this thread is meaningless.

Thome25
09-20-2006, 10:18 AM
After the feeling I got last season, I will defend Ozzie in whatever he does. (He did cross the line one time but, all is forgiven) If he decided to bring the entire AAA Charlotte team to Chicago and play them all as the starters I would still defend him.

He bleeds Silver, Black, and White just like I do. If he want's to rip some rookie and not play him, whatever the reason, then so be it.

BA never earned anything. He was handed the CF job. He still hasn't proved anything. He wasn't the best option for this season. Neither was Mackowiak.

With that said, I hope BA does find his way ala Buehrle, Garland, and Crede. And I hope BA and Ozzie find a way to get along.

If not, maybe the Sox can trade BA for someone that can help us either now or down the road.

INSox56
09-20-2006, 10:22 AM
After the feeling I got last season, I will defend Ozzie in whatever he does. (He did cross the line one time but, all is forgiven) If he decided to bring the entire AAA Charlotte team to Chicago and play them all as the starters I would still defend him.

He bleeds Silver, Black, and White just like I do. If he want's to rip some rookie and not play him, whatever the reason, then so be it.

BA never earned anything. He was handed the CF job. He still hasn't proved anything. He wasn't the best option for this season. Neither was Mackowiak.

With that said, I hope BA does find his way ala Buehrle, Garland, and Crede. And I hope BA and Ozzie find a way to get along.

If not, maybe the Sox can trade BA for someone that can help us either now or down the road.


eeks...hasn't proven anything? How bout having the best CF defense I've seen besides Grady Sizemore?

itsnotrequired
09-20-2006, 10:32 AM
After the feeling I got last season, I will defend Ozzie in whatever he does. (He did cross the line one time but, all is forgiven) If he decided to bring the entire AAA Charlotte team to Chicago and play them all as the starters I would still defend him.

This is an insane line of thinking. If Ozzie brought up the whole AAA team, he should be fired on the spot.

He bleeds Silver, Black, and White just like I do. If he want's to rip some rookie and not play him, whatever the reason, then so be it.

I'm all for managerial discretion but if Ozzie isn't playing Anderson due to some personal beef, pride or similar reason, then that's a bunch of crap. Ozzie is putting his interests before the team. Unacceptable (if this is the reason).

BA never earned anything. He was handed the CF job. He still hasn't proved anything. He wasn't the best option for this season. Neither was Mackowiak.

Anderson has proven that he is an excellent defensive center fielder. That point shouldn't even be debated. Since the All-Star break, he is hitting .277 and has more doubles than anyone else on the team. What more does a rookie need to prove?

With that said, I hope BA does find his way ala Buehrle, Garland, and Crede. And I hope BA and Ozzie find a way to get along.

If not, maybe the Sox can trade BA for someone that can help us either now or down the road.

Wait, on one hand you're hoping he develops in the same style as Buehrle, Garland and Crede i.e. over a couple seasons but on the other hand you are ready to trade him right now?:kukoo:

Thome25
09-20-2006, 10:39 AM
Wait, on one hand you're hoping he develops in the same style as Buehrle, Garland and Crede i.e. over a couple seasons but on the other hand you are ready to trade him right now?:kukoo:

Try to follow along here. I didn't write the original post in Italian so it should be easy to understand.

I said that I hope BA can develop in to a player the likes of Crede, Buehrle, and Garland. AND I hope that he and Ozzie can find a way to get along.

But IF NOT (as in if that doesn't work out) Maybe the Sox can do both the team and the player a favor and trade him for someone that can help npw or in the future.

Your post is the exact kind I had a rant about earlier. You want to ridicule someone and treat them like they're stupid.

I'm done with this site for a couple of days.

voodoochile
09-20-2006, 10:45 AM
This is an insane line of thinking. If Ozzie brought up the whole AAA team, he should be fired on the spot.



I'm all for managerial discretion but if Ozzie isn't playing Anderson due to some personal beef, pride or similar reason, then that's a bunch of crap. Ozzie is putting his interests before the team. Unacceptable (if this is the reason).



Anderson has proven that he is an excellent defensive center fielder. That point shouldn't even be debated. Since the All-Star break, he is hitting .277 and has more doubles than anyone else on the team. What more does a rookie need to prove?



Wait, on one hand you're hoping he develops in the same style as Buehrle, Garland and Crede i.e. over a couple seasons but on the other hand you are ready to trade him right now?:kukoo:

That's a lot of speculation. None of us know what the real reasons are. Could be BA doesn't prepare well for games. Could be BA has continued to carouse late night in bars and not shown the desire to be the best and put aside the "lifestyle of an MLB player" in an effort to get better. Could be BA has blown off coaching advice and refused to do what is asked of him. Could be any number of things that would have absolutely nothing to do with a personal issue between BA and OG.

There, more speculation from the other side of the coin worth as much as any of the personal vendetta stuff is - exactly nothing.

None of us know what is really going on, but I agree with Nellie that something behind the scenes has/is happening that makes OG not want to play BA everyday.

Hopefully BA will play some winter ball and come back strong in the off season. Hopefully Sweeney will too and Fields will try out in LF then the three of them can fight it out for the starting jobs in the OF next season provided no better FA has been acquired in the off-season.

I am assuming Dye will be re-signed, but if not, I hope the Sox make a serious run at some form of veteran OF help who can hit for power and average. Dye will hopefully give the team a hometown discount if another team makes a serious run at him. I have to believe he is very happy here and would love to make a run at defending their two straight WS titles...

jenn2080
09-20-2006, 10:46 AM
Try to follow along here. I didn't write the original post in Italian so it should be easy to understand.

I said that I hope BA can develop in to a player the likes of Crede, Buehrle, and Garland. AND I hope that he and Ozzie can find a way to get along.

But IF NOT (as in if that doesn't work out) Maybe the Sox can do both the team and the player a favor and trade him for someone that can help npw or in the future.

Your post is the exact kind I had a rant about earlier. You want to ridicule someone and treat them like they're stupid.

I'm done with this site for a couple of days.


Very hypocritical. This isn't the first time I have read a post that you were kind of rude and degrading to someone. You are contridicting yourself and you are getting mad when people are pointing that out.

itsnotrequired
09-20-2006, 10:50 AM
Try to follow along here. I didn't write the original post in Italian so it should be easy to understand.

I said that I hope BA can develop in to a player the likes of Crede, Buehrle, and Garland. AND I hope that he and Ozzie can find a way to get along.

But IF NOT (as in if that doesn't work out) Maybe the Sox can do both the team and the player a favor and trade him for someone that can help npw or in the future.

Your post is the exact kind I had a rant about earlier. You want to ridicule someone and treat them like they're stupid.

I'm done with this site for a couple of days.

Hey now, you said "maybe the Sox can trade BA for someone that can help us either now or down the road." What were you meaning by "now"? I took that to mean right away or as soon as possible. If Anderson struggles to start next season, would you want to trade him or wait to see if he develops?

:dunno:

I'm not trying to ridicule you, just understanding what you are trying to say. No need to run off for a few days.

itsnotrequired
09-20-2006, 10:52 AM
That's a lot of speculation. None of us know what the real reasons are. Could be BA doesn't prepare well for games. Could be BA has continued to carouse late night in bars and not shown the desire to be the best and put aside the "lifestyle of an MLB player" in an effort to get better. Could be BA has blown off coaching advice and refused to do what is asked of him. Could be any number of things that would have absolutely nothing to do with a personal issue between BA and OG.

There, more speculation from the other side of the coin worth as much as any of the personal vendetta stuff is - exactly nothing.

None of us know what is really going on, but I agree with Nellie that something behind the scenes has/is happening that makes OG not want to play BA everyday.

Hopefully BA will play some winter ball and come back strong in the off season. Hopefully Sweeney will too and Fields will try out in LF then the three of them can fight it out for the starting jobs in the OF next season provided no better FA has been acquired in the off-season.

I am assuming Dye will be re-signed, but if not, I hope the Sox make a serious run at some form of veteran OF help who can hit for power and average. Dye will hopefully give the team a hometown discount if another team makes a serious run at him. I have to believe he is very happy here and would love to make a run at defending their two straight WS titles...

Oh, no doubt it is all speculation. The original ideas (i.e. Ozzie bringing up the whole AAA team) were speculation as well. The only answer to speculation is more speculation!:D:

I stand by my statements though. If Ozzie is letting some personal beef stand in the way of fielding the best team possible, he should be taken to task for it.

southside rocks
09-20-2006, 11:02 AM
That's a lot of speculation. None of us know what the real reasons are. Could be BA doesn't prepare well for games. Could be BA has continued to carouse late night in bars and not shown the desire to be the best and put aside the "lifestyle of an MLB player" in an effort to get better. Could be BA has blown off coaching advice and refused to do what is asked of him. Could be any number of things that would have absolutely nothing to do with a personal issue between BA and OG.

There, more speculation from the other side of the coin worth as much as any of the personal vendetta stuff is - exactly nothing.

None of us know what is really going on, but I agree with Nellie that something behind the scenes has/is happening that makes OG not want to play BA everyday.



I agree. It's plain that there are "issues" between Ozzie and BA. IF we knew what they were, we might find Ozzie's behavior and comments to be not only understandable but mild, or appropriate. We don't know. We can't know. And as Sherlock Holmes cautioned, it's a mistake to theorize without knowing the facts, because you force the facts to fit your theory rather than developing a theory that fits the facts.

Heck, two weeks before Dmitri Young got cut by the Tigers, I had co-workers telling me what a Boy Scout DY was and how he was the very model of a MLB player. Guess he wasn't ... but the real story was kept away from the public and still is.

Not saying that Anderson is a Dmitri Young, only that we know next to nothing about the facts in so many cases, including this one.

Flight #24
09-20-2006, 11:40 AM
It's hilarious to me that there's so much "Anderson should sit" commentary, and yet not nearly as much "Uribe should sit". As of today, Anderson's at .231BA & Uribe's at .234. And Anderson's actually a better defender since he's got the range/flair of Uribe without the boneheadedness.

Oh yeah, and he's a rookie, so you'd expect him to struggle a bit starting off but improve - which he has.

MadetoOrta
09-20-2006, 11:57 AM
Brian Anderson is a star in the making folks - whether it's with the Sox or someone else. Let's look at his career #s:
Games Team(s) Average HR RBI
2003 70 U of Az/Great Falls .377 16 75
2004 107 W/S&Birmingham .300 12 73
2005 ? Charlotte/CHiSox .295 18 60

The guy is a star in the making unless his confidence takes a pounding. I don't want to read about Jeff Abbot folks. He's closer to Grady Sizemore than Jeff Abbot. Leave him alone and he'll be a great CF

maurice
09-20-2006, 12:15 PM
BA is nothing. He has done nothing for us. He will probably be another "flash in the pan" prospect the likes of Jeff Abbott and Joe Borchard.

:rolleyes:

I understand that you want to give all credit for 2005 to Ozzie, but KW probably deserves a little bit too. From all indications, KW thinks that Anderson will be a starting CF in this league for a long, long time. The very good reasons for KW's assessment are spelled out in great detail thoughout this site.

maurice
09-20-2006, 12:21 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, there is no reason to believe that Ozzie has a "secret" reason for sitting BA. Ozzie doesn't keep secrets; he publishes every single fleeting thought in the media. That's probably his major flaw. Thus, there is no reason to doubt that Ozzie actually believes 100% of the BS he says about Anderson, Mackowiak, etc. His comments are not rational but, IMO, he truly feels that way.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-20-2006, 12:32 PM
BA is pretty cocky. Listen to him in interviews w/ him. I believe Mike North put it the best when he and the score 670 were in detroit. He said Brian Anderson walks around here as if he was a 320 hitter. No room for arogence. Ozzie is all about old school baseball. He is a rookie and if he walks around the locker room all cocky and arogent, he should be put in his place. Hes a rookie. I like him, he is a good player (will be in the future), but from the little us fans see personality wise, I think someone needs to humble this guy. Thats what Ozzie is doing.

You may have a point but the irony of Brian's cockiness bothering Ozzie is pretty funny. As a rookie, Ozzie went to the mound to give Tom Seaver advice.:rolleyes:

southside rocks
09-20-2006, 12:36 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, there is no reason to believe that Ozzie has a "secret" reason for sitting BA. Ozzie doesn't keep secrets; he publishes every single fleeting thought in the media. That's probably his major flaw. Thus, there is no reason to doubt that Ozzie actually believes 100% of the BS he says about Anderson, Mackowiak, etc. His comments are not rational but, IMO, he truly feels that way.

So we, the fans, know every nuance and every aspect of Ozzie's relationship with Brian Anderson? We know all the things that they have said to each other, the arguments they may have had, and the reasons for those arguments?

Um ... no.

I'm sure that Ozzie does believe what he says, about any or all of the players he comments on. It's 98% of what happens in the relationship between him and those players that we don't know and can't know.

A baseball manager spends 8-9 hours a day with his players, for 7 months of the year. It's simply impossible that what goes on between players, or between manager and player, in that great amount of time, is made known to the public.

CaptainBallz
09-20-2006, 12:41 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, there is no reason to believe that Ozzie has a "secret" reason for sitting BA. Ozzie doesn't keep secrets; he publishes every single fleeting thought in the media. That's probably his major flaw. Thus, there is no reason to doubt that Ozzie actually believes 100% of the BS he says about Anderson, Mackowiak, etc. His comments are not rational but, IMO, he truly feels that way.

If this is the case then Ozzie is, indeed, clinically insane. It's against any line of reasoning to keep trotting Mack out into center so often for the numerous reasons posted here. But let's not forget that Ozzie has even abandoned the "sacred" lefty/righty matchups in order to play Macko/ bench BA. There is nothing happening on the field or in front of any rational observer that leads one to believe that Mack gives the team "the best chance to win." That's what Ozzie's saying. It's bullcrap. Total.

maurice
09-20-2006, 12:41 PM
So we, the fans, know every nuance and every aspect of Ozzie's relationship with Brian Anderson?

I didn't say that. I said that we should believe Ozzie when he says "I did X because of Y." For example, Ozzie repeatedly has given very specific "reasons" why he plays Mackowiak in CF. We should believe that he believes them. He may be wrong, but he isn't lying. If he had other reasons, he would state them. That's Ozzie. It's wrong to create some ulterior motive from thin air.

Hangar18
09-20-2006, 12:44 PM
I agree with Itsnotrequired, I really hope that the reason Mackowiak is playing more, isnt because Ozzie is personally mad at BAnderson for something personal. Thats putting personal stuff over the teams sake ........
Mackowiak has cost us some games this year being in Centerfield.

southside rocks
09-20-2006, 12:51 PM
I agree with Itsnotrequired, I really hope that the reason Mackowiak is playing more, isnt because Ozzie is personally mad at BAnderson for something personal. Thats putting personal stuff over the teams sake ........
Mackowiak has cost us some games this year being in Centerfield.

I don't think anyone ever said it was something "personal" -- as in, unrelated to baseball or Anderson's performance.

I think that BA for some reason has gotten into Ozzie's bad books. The reasons may be what some other posters suggested: that Anderson is not taking instruction well; that he is not adhering to some team policies; that he is either not paying attention or disregarding some instructions he's been given. I don't know.

And no, I don't think that Ozzie would put that stuff in the press. I think Ozzie would say that Mack is his best option in CF right now, with the subtext being that BA is not an option because of these issues they have -- Anderson knows what they are, the public doesn't have to.

And Ozzie, I believe, sees player development (the education and training of young players) as being very much in the best interest of the team. It MAY be that he's trying to improve Anderson here, despite the conclusions that the fans and media are leaping to.

It's all speculation, on all our parts, obviously.

itsnotrequired
09-20-2006, 12:53 PM
I agree with Itsnotrequired, I really hope that the reason Mackowiak is playing more, isnt because Ozzie is personally mad at BAnderson for something personal. Thats putting personal stuff over the teams sake ........
Mackowiak has cost us some games this year being in Centerfield.

I should state that this was just speculation on my part. As far as I know, there is no proof that this is the case. My statements were based more on another poster wanting to excuse Ozzie for anything he does simply because he is Ozzie.

Paulwny
09-20-2006, 12:54 PM
I agree with Itsnotrequired, I really hope that the reason Mackowiak is playing more, isnt because Ozzie is personally mad at BAnderson for something personal. Thats putting personal stuff over the teams sake ........
Mackowiak has cost us some games this year being in Centerfield.

I sometimes wonder if Oz is showing -up KW. Possibly, at the beginning of st, Oz may have asked KW for another option if he felt BA wasn't playing up to Ozzie's liking. KW may have told him , "You have Mackowiak. "

I know this is way out from left field . :?:

southside rocks
09-20-2006, 12:57 PM
I sometimes wonder if Oz is showing -up KW. Possibly, at the beginning of st, Oz may have asked KW for another option if he felt BA wasn't playing up to Ozzie's liking. KW may have told him , "You have Mackowiak. "

I know this is way out from left field . :?:

Here's another one from way out in left field: someone suggested to me earlier this year that Anderson is Kenny Williams's pet project for 2006.

So Ozzie may feel that he's stuck with BA. For all we know, Ozzie wanted to send Anderson to Charlotte in June, when the club decided not to!

Again, total speculation here.

soxfanatlanta
09-20-2006, 01:02 PM
I sometimes wonder if Oz is showing -up KW. Possibly, at the beginning of st, Oz may have asked KW for another option if he felt BA wasn't playing up to Ozzie's liking. KW may have told him , "You have Mackowiak. "

I know this is way out from left field . :?:

There is insane, and criminally insane; but to tell your boss to **** off by sacrificing games to prove a point? That is a great way to get canned. No, Ozzie might be off his rocker in some respects, but there are limits.


We might not know what is really going on between BA and Ozzie for a long time.

Paulwny
09-20-2006, 01:17 PM
There is insane, and criminally insane; but to tell your boss to **** off by sacrificing games to prove a point? That is a great way to get canned. No, Ozzie might be off his rocker in some respects, but there are limits.


We might not know what is really going on between BA and Ozzie for a long time.

Where did I say that OZ was intentionally trying to lose games? He obviously felt that in some games Mack was a better choice over BA and he was using the only other option KW gave him. He probably felt he could show KW that they could win without BA in the line up.

Hitmen77
09-20-2006, 01:24 PM
I agree with Itsnotrequired, I really hope that the reason Mackowiak is playing more, isnt because Ozzie is personally mad at BAnderson for something personal. Thats putting personal stuff over the teams sake ........
Mackowiak has cost us some games this year being in Centerfield.

Hey, welcome back!

maurice
09-20-2006, 01:27 PM
I think Ozzie would say that Mack is his best option in CF right now, with the subtext being that BA is not an option because of these issues they have -- Anderson knows what they are, the public doesn't have to.

I would agree with you if that's what he said and if he benched Anderson for a period of time . . . but it's not what he said and not what he did. Rather, he has been asked repeatedly about specific games and has given very specific "reasons," such as "we needed Mack's bat in the lineup today," "I'm protecting Anderson from bad matchups," and "Anderson is stuggling with the bat right now." Similarly, he never benched Anderson for a prolonged period like you would with a punitive measure, but rather irrationally platooned him for much of the season.

There's no reason to believe that the specific reasons Ozzie gave were lies. Folks' efforts to defend Ozzie's sanity are impugning his honesty. If anything, history has shown us that he's brutally honest and more than a bit crazy. It's certainly not unusual for old school baseball people to make key decisions based on illogical premises. For example, Ozzie's irrational love affair with lefty-righty matchups has been amply demonstrated through his pitching moves. Why not believe him when he says that perceived offensive "matchups" are his reason for platooning Mack and Anderson?

CLR01
09-20-2006, 01:35 PM
It's hilarious to me that there's so much "Anderson should sit" commentary, and yet not nearly as much "Uribe should sit". As of today, Anderson's at .231BA & Uribe's at .234. And Anderson's actually a better defender since he's got the range/flair of Uribe without the boneheadedness.

Oh yeah, and he's a rookie, so you'd expect him to struggle a bit starting off but improve - which he has.


It's hilarious that Anderson's second half stats are dismissed as a nice improvement but still not good enough but those stats are better than wonder boy's last year and some of the same people can't stop talking about him.

JB98
09-20-2006, 01:35 PM
It's hilarious to me that there's so much "Anderson should sit" commentary, and yet not nearly as much "Uribe should sit". As of today, Anderson's at .231BA & Uribe's at .234. And Anderson's actually a better defender since he's got the range/flair of Uribe without the boneheadedness.

Oh yeah, and he's a rookie, so you'd expect him to struggle a bit starting off but improve - which he has.

Uribe is another issue entirely. But as one of the biggest Anderson critics on WSI, I would like to point out that Uribe's ass would be collecting splinters if I were manager of the White Sox.

Just because I criticize Brian does not mean I approve of the subpar play and, at times, lackadaiscal effort we've gotten out of Uribe and Pods this season.

maurice
09-20-2006, 01:56 PM
In today's paper (http://www.suntimes.com/output/telander/cst-spt-rick20.html), Ozzie responded to a couple of the arguments in this thread.

Re. the idea that Ozzie is refusing to publically criticize players who are slacking:
I will never protect my players. You know me now. If I have to throw my players under the bus, I will. . . . [M]y players show up and play hard every day.' . . .

Re. the idea that the front office failed to give him the bench players he wanted:
Kenny Williams gave me the team I wanted. I don't think [Sox chairman] Jerry [Reinsdorf] and Kenny had anything to do with this. . . . Those two guys did everything in their power to build the ballclub we have, that I wanted.

This is consistent with KW's past comments that Ozzie gets to decide the makeup of the bench and that he will ship out any player that Ozzie wants gone.

Paulwny
09-20-2006, 02:00 PM
In today's paper (http://www.suntimes.com/output/telander/cst-spt-rick20.html), Ozzie responded to a couple of the arguments in this thread.


This is consistent with KW's past comments that Ozzie gets to decide the makeup of the bench and that he will ship out any player that Ozzie wants gone.


Thanks for the info, my out of left field post is now out of the park. :redface:

KyWhiSoxFan
09-20-2006, 02:24 PM
The only info that I have on this is where a few weeks ago Kenny was on that weekend Sox radio show and maybe the comment about 'discussing' with Ozzie why BA wasn't playing everyday and that after Ozzie gave his reasons he had to 'respect' Ozzie's right as manager to make out the lineup as he saw fit.

To me there is obviously some sort of disagreement between the two over this.

Lip

That's why the first guy out the door after the season is over is Makowiack. KW will take him out of the equation to make sure one of our outfielder choices in the future actually can play the outfield. Mak was played out of position all year. I always thought before the season started that the one hole we had was not having a reliable fourth outfielder.

caulfield12
09-20-2006, 02:34 PM
That's why the first guy out the door after the season is over is Makowiack. KW will take him out of the equation to make sure one of our outfielder choices in the future actually can play the outfield. Mak was played out of position all year. I always thought before the season started that the one hole we had was not having a reliable fourth outfielder.

We have plenty of fourth outfielders now....Ozuna, Mackowiak, Gload, Pods. The MAIN problem is none of them can adequately play CF defensively (see Harris, Willie). An issue for a long time with the Sox, dating back to Armando Rios and Brian Daubach and beyond.

voodoochile
09-20-2006, 02:40 PM
You may have a point but the irony of Brian's cockiness bothering Ozzie is pretty funny. As a rookie, Ozzie went to the mound to give Tom Seaver advice.:rolleyes:

Well yeah, but he is Ozzie Guillen :rolleyes:. He was also a ROY...

Flight #24
09-20-2006, 02:41 PM
That's why the first guy out the door after the season is over is Makowiack. KW will take him out of the equation to make sure one of our outfielder choices in the future actually can play the outfield. Mak was played out of position all year. I always thought before the season started that the one hole we had was not having a reliable fourth outfielder.

I disagree. Mack is an extremely valuable reserve when used at the right spots. Instead of letting him go, he'll go find a better reserve CF option for Ozzie.

caulfield12
09-20-2006, 02:43 PM
I disagree. Mack is an extremely valuable reserve when used at the right spots. Instead of letting him go, he'll go find a better reserve CF option for Ozzie.

Well, Mackowiak and Cintron are among the more expensive bench players in the league. I just wonder if KW will be able to have three $2-4 million reserves on the bench?

southside rocks
09-20-2006, 04:05 PM
Well, Mackowiak and Cintron are among the more expensive bench players in the league. I just wonder if KW will be able to have three $2-4 million reserves on the bench?

Maybe that's the real reason why Ozzie plays the bench guys so often -- trying to get the club its money's worth from them.

I can't decide if that should be teal ...

KyWhiSoxFan
09-20-2006, 04:34 PM
I don't think KW is keeping Mackowiack. He can't play the outfield and he can't hit for power. So, what good is he?

When I said we don't have a reliable fourth outfielder, I included him. I don't count Ozuna as a reliable outfielder (he's a disaster out there and cost us games; I like him at the plate, though), and Gload can't play the outfield, either. We needed a legitimate fourth outfielder in case Anderson could not cut it. Anderson may well be the fourth outfielder next year. KW will get somone to replace Pods and someone ready to replace BA if he can't cut it.

JB98
09-20-2006, 06:32 PM
I don't think KW is keeping Mackowiack. He can't play the outfield and he can't hit for power. So, what good is he?

When I said we don't have a reliable fourth outfielder, I included him. I don't count Ozuna as a reliable outfielder (he's a disaster out there and cost us games; I like him at the plate, though), and Gload can't play the outfield, either. We needed a legitimate fourth outfielder in case Anderson could not cut it. Anderson may well be the fourth outfielder next year. KW will get somone to replace Pods and someone ready to replace BA if he can't cut it.

Mack can play the corner outfield spots just fine. He's a high average hitter and a good baserunner, which makes him a solid bench guy.

Agree that we need a legitimate fourth outfielder, i.e., one that can handle CF.

maurice
09-21-2006, 01:17 PM
Mackowiak career = .262 AVE, .745 OPS. He's a pretty good baserunner.

Mack would be much more valuable if we didn't also have Cintron and Gload.

Gavin
09-21-2006, 01:26 PM
Brian Anderson slept with Ozzie's wife, people. How is this that hard to understand.

maurice
09-21-2006, 02:03 PM
Brian Anderson slept with Ozzie's wife, people. How is this that hard to understand.

:D:
I heard that he didn't play yesterday because he shot JFK. Either that or he's being punished for pissing off the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Seriously, these "explanations" are about as credible as the other "sepeculation" flying around these threads.

Jaffar
09-21-2006, 03:08 PM
:D:
I heard that he didn't play yesterday because he shot JFK. Either that or he's being punished for pissing off the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Seriously, these "explanations" are about as credible as the other "sepeculation" flying around these threads.

Also about as credible as the "explanations" Ozzie gives us apparently.....not teal.

CLR01
09-21-2006, 04:42 PM
Also about as credible as the "explanations" Ozzie gives us apparently.....not teal.


Some are more credible.

maurice
09-21-2006, 05:51 PM
The last couple of times that we had this much baseless speculation on WSI, tons of people were convinced that Konerko's career was over because of a chronic hip problem and that KW was done as Sox GM.
:rolleyes:

Frater Perdurabo
09-23-2006, 12:15 AM
FWIW, here's more info to prove that Ozzie is a complete moron for starting Mackowiak over Anderson in CF:

So far this year, Anderson has recorded 294 putouts, 3 assists, 1 error and 1 DP in 916 innings. That's 2.91 outs generated per nine innings.

So far this year, Mackowiak has recorded 145 putouts, 2 assists and 4 errors in 585.1 innings (a few played in LF/RF). That's 2.19 outs generated per nine innings.

On defense, Anderson generates roughly two more outs per three games than Mackowiak.

Pretend for a moment that an out generated on defense is as good as getting on base on offense (never mind the fact that in center field, a ball that is not caught for an out often goes for a much more damaging extra-base hit). If Anderson got on base twice more every three games, he'd have been on base 85 additional times this year. If that were the case, his "Frater method" OBP would be a staggering .520!

Well, the remaining Mackowiak supporters would say that sometimes a hitter hits extra-base hits that are more valuable than simple walks or singles. They might claim that any XBHs that Mackowiak hits would offset the XBHs Anderson prevents. OK, let's examine that too:

So far this year, Anderson has hit 31 extra-base hits in 339 ABs. He has hit an XBH 9.14% of the time. (Or if you count his 383 total plate appearances, 8.09% of the time.)

So far this year, Mackowiak has hit 15 extra-base hits in 244 ABs. He has hit an XBH 6.14% of the time. (Or if you count his 287 total plate appearances, 5.22% of the time.)

In a given at-bat, Anderson has been more likely than Mack to hit for extra bases.

Who should have gotten the overwhelming majority (90%) of the CF starts?
:kukoo:

lumpyspun
09-23-2006, 12:20 AM
:D:
I heard that he didn't play yesterday because he shot JFK. Either that or he's being punished for pissing off the Flying Spaghetti Monster.



One thing you do not do is piss off the Flying Spaghetti Monster, they must not teach this in AAA anymore...

SOXandILLINI
09-23-2006, 12:24 AM
FWIW, here's more info to prove that Ozzie is a complete moron for starting Mackowiak over Anderson in CF:

So far this year, Anderson has recorded 294 putouts, 3 assists, 1 error and 1 DP in 916 innings. That's 2.91 outs generated per nine innings.

So far this year, Mackowiak has recorded 145 putouts, 2 assists and 4 errors in 585.1 innings (a few played in LF/RF). That's 2.19 outs generated per nine innings.

On defense, Anderson generates roughly two more outs per three games than Mackowiak.

Pretend for a moment that an out generated on defense is as good as getting on base on offense (never mind the fact that in center field, a ball that is not caught for an out often goes for a much more damaging extra-base hit). If Anderson got on base twice more every three games, he'd have been on base 85 additional times this year. If that were the case, his "Frater method" OBP would be a staggering .520!

Well, the remaining Mackowiak supporters would say that sometimes a hitter hits extra-base hits that are more valuable than simple walks or singles. They might claim that any XBHs that Mackowiak hits would offset the XBHs Anderson prevents. OK, let's examine that too:

So far this year, Anderson has hit 31 extra-base hits in 339 ABs. He has hit an XBH 9.14% of the time. (Or if you count his 383 total plate appearances, 8.09% of the time.)

So far this year, Mackowiak has hit 15 extra-base hits in 244 ABs. He has hit an XBH 6.14% of the time. (Or if you count his 287 total plate appearances, 5.22% of the time.)

In a given at-bat, Anderson has been more likely than Mack to hit for extra bases.

Who should have gotten the overwhelming majority (90%) of the CF starts?
:kukoo:
ozzie is not a complete moron, he is a genius... right lumpy?:supernana:

kitekrazy
09-23-2006, 10:25 AM
Maybe that's the real reason why Ozzie plays the bench guys so often -- trying to get the club its money's worth from them.

I think it's so the bench can perform in the post season. That worked last year.

kitekrazy
09-23-2006, 10:46 AM
I wonder how far fetched this concocted soap opera can get.

If there is anything going on with BA the Sox will keep it a secret.

If Ozzie has a personal problem with BA that isn't legit I can't see KW not getting involved.

Frater Perdurabo
09-23-2006, 10:49 AM
I think it's so the bench can perform in the post season. That worked last year.

The problem is that this year, playing Mackowiak in CF so much probably has cost the Sox some games and perhaps this has been at least part of the difference between making the playoffs and staying home. The winning percentage is higher when Anderson plays CF than whan Mackowiak plays CF. In a tight race, every game counts.

Ozzie foolishly benched Anderson in Game 2 after Anderson had a two-hit game in Game 1. Anderson's hitting spiraled out of control after that and it wasn't until mid-June that he recovered. Even after he got on an extended consistent "hot" streak in which he actually out-performed Mackowiak at the plate, Ozzie inexplicably continued to bench him in favor of the weaker-hitting, weaker-fielding Mack.

I assert that Anderson's batting average would be higher today if Ozzie had let him work through his early-season slump and then had let him continue to get 90% of the starts after he righted himself. I also assert that the Sox would either lead the division or the wild card race, or be within one or two games, if Ozzie has stuck with Anderson.

Again, the Sox winning percentage has been higher when Anderson starts in CF.

fquaye149
09-23-2006, 11:27 AM
I can't believe I just read this pile of ****.

The Dude is absolutely right in his post breaking down the situation.

But further than that, can we get away from this black and white mentality?

Ozzie has his strengths and weaknesses as a manager. 2005's success had a lot to do with him and a lot to do with the players. 2006's failure had a lot to do with him and a lot to do with the players.

BA is not worthless and is a promising young player and already a wonderful centerfielder, but he's also not a very good hitter (yet) no matter what his 2nd half statistics say. Whatever the reason (Ozzie benching him) those numbers were put up against favorable matchups for him.

Ozzie isn't so stupid to think that Mackowiack is a better defensive player than Anderson, but he's also not prepared to play Anderson when he likely gives the team a better chance to win.

Something is happening here and we don't know what it is, do we Mr. Jones. Nellie's situation seems very likely since we haven't heard much positive from Walker about BA. Of course, the situation proposed here that Ozzie just doesn't like BA and is being spiteful also seems plausible, unfortunately.

The point is we don't know. We really don't know. But let's not be conspiracy theorists or knee-jerk Cub fans (In Dusty we trusty!!!...FIRE DUSTY!)....stay on an even keel for God sake. Soon the season will be over and Ozzie and Kenny will have a lot to answer for.

If you don't think the issue of Anderson will come up, you're crazy. Patience, please....

I can't ****ing believe I read 6 pages of this crap....

Martinigirl
09-23-2006, 12:49 PM
BA is not worthless and is a promising young player and already a wonderful centerfielder, but he's also not a very good hitter (yet) no matter what his 2nd half statistics say. Whatever the reason (Ozzie benching him) those numbers were put up against favorable matchups for him.

Ozzie isn't so stupid to think that Mackowiack is a better defensive player than Anderson, but he's also not prepared to play Anderson when he likely gives the team a better chance to win.

....

But Mack repeatedly has shown that, because of his defense, he does not give us the best chance to win. He has cost us games, and instead of admitting that, Ozzie keeps putting him out there ,to the detriment of the team. So to some, that means Ozzie is that stupid.

ondafarm
09-23-2006, 12:54 PM
But Mack repeatedly has shown that, because of his defense, he does not give us the best chance to win. He has cost us games, and instead of admitting that, Ozzie keeps putting him out there ,to the detriment of the team. So to some, that means Ozzie is that stupid.

Or that Ozzie has a longer term perspective than you. You are consistently assuming that Ozzie is "win, this season, at all costs." Ozzie has been making decisions based on preparing several players for next season for several months now. During the last month, his decisions have shifted almost entirely over toward preparing guys for next season.

To the some people who don't recognize that, Ozzie is not stupid.

samram
09-23-2006, 01:00 PM
Or that Ozzie has a longer term perspective than you. You are consistently assuming that Ozzie is "win, this season, at all costs." Ozzie has been making decisions based on preparing several players for next season for several months now. During the last month, his decisions have shifted almost entirely over toward preparing guys for next season.

To the some people who don't recognize that, Ozzie is not stupid.

I'm not buying that Ozzie turned his attention toward next season in August. I'm certainly not buying that the plan is to have Mackowiak play CF a significant amount next year.

Martinigirl
09-23-2006, 01:03 PM
To the some people who don't recognize that, Ozzie is not stupid.

To start playing for next season when you are in the middle of a pennant race this season doesn't exactly make him brilliant.

And I don't think playing mind games with a rookie is necessarily the best thing for the future either.

fquaye149
09-23-2006, 01:15 PM
I'm not buying that Ozzie turned his attention toward next season in August. I'm certainly not buying that the plan is to have Mackowiak play CF a significant amount next year.

Sometimes you have to set the tone with a ballplayer immediately or he will not improve into the player you want him to be. If that player is a first round draft pick, the potential for greatness is there, but if you see bad habits, sometimes you have to not put your best team on the field in order to make a statement to that player...

I'm not saying this is the case with Anderson--I have no way of knowing that; I'm just saying that Ozzie looking to the long term might have more to do with making sure Anderson doesn't turn out to be the next Mike Cameron (not that I'm suggesting Mike Cameron's offensive mediocrity has anything to do with bad habits--i'm talking strictly numbers.)

fquaye149
09-23-2006, 01:18 PM
To start playing for next season when you are in the middle of a pennant race this season doesn't exactly make him brilliant.

And I don't think playing mind games with a rookie is necessarily the best thing for the future either.

Mind games or teaching important lessons are two ways of looking at it. We don't know which it is.

If it is mind games (which seems odd to me, even given Ozzie's temperament) then that's unacceptable.

If it's "teaching important lessons to a rookie" then it's hardly something to get up in arms about.

Ozzie's shown in the past that when he does call out a player or discipline them, it's for a lack of effort, a lack of willingness to do what he is asking him to do (Tracey, Uribe, Lee, Marte, and so on).

When, before this, has Ozzie ever shown himself to have some sort of personality crisis that had nothing to do with fulfilling Ozzie's expectation on the field?

samram
09-23-2006, 01:24 PM
Sometimes you have to set the tone with a ballplayer immediately or he will not improve into the player you want him to be. If that player is a first round draft pick, the potential for greatness is there, but if you see bad habits, sometimes you have to not put your best team on the field in order to make a statement to that player...

I'm not saying this is the case with Anderson--I have no way of knowing that; I'm just saying that Ozzie looking to the long term might have more to do with making sure Anderson doesn't turn out to be the next Mike Cameron (not that I'm suggesting Mike Cameron's offensive mediocrity has anything to do with bad habits--i'm talking strictly numbers.)

Yeah, but should PK, Thome, Crede, and Dye have to pay the price of not making the postseason so that BA, who is hitting ninth, learns a lesson? I'm not so sure. Of course, all four of those guys have played their own roles in this team's poor performance down the stretch, but if Brian was such a pain in the ass, why not send him to AAA and just trade for anyone that could catch the ball out in CF? That's why I think (obviously, I don't know for sure) there could be a little struggle behind the scenes between KW and Ozzie on this issue. I don't think KW is any more willing to put up with some rookie's ego-driven crap than Ozzie is.

MarySwiss
09-23-2006, 01:26 PM
Or that Ozzie has a longer term perspective than you. You are consistently assuming that Ozzie is "win, this season, at all costs." Ozzie has been making decisions based on preparing several players for next season for several months now. During the last month, his decisions have shifted almost entirely over toward preparing guys for next season.

To the some people who don't recognize that, Ozzie is not stupid.
Call me naive, Onda, but I like to think that the goal EVERY season should be "win, this season, at all costs."

Man Soo Lee
09-23-2006, 01:28 PM
The problem is that this year, playing Mackowiak in CF so much probably has cost the Sox some games and perhaps this has been at least part of the difference between making the playoffs and staying home. The winning percentage is higher when Anderson plays CF than whan Mackowiak plays CF. In a tight race, every game counts.

I'll take another (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1357825#post1357825) shot at debunking this. I missed one of Mackowiak's starts when I counted before and don't feel like recounting since it doesn't change the point.

The Sox are:
29-22 (.569) or 28-23 (.549) when Mackowiak starts in CF
54-46 (.540) or 55-45 (.550) when Anderson starts in CF

Anderson's "record" might be hurt by the team-wide struggles vs. lefties or it might be helped by sitting against tough righties. Either way, there isn't a significant difference in the team's record with one CF or the other.

I agree that Anderson should have played more in the second half, but it didn't make a six game difference in the Sox record.

MarySwiss
09-23-2006, 01:30 PM
I'll take another (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1357825#post1357825) shot at debunking this. I missed one of Mackowiak's starts when I counted before and don't feel like recounting since it doesn't change the point.

The Sox are:
29-22 (.569) or 28-23 (.549) when Mackowiak starts in CF
54-46 (.540) or 55-45 (.550) when Anderson starts in CF

Anderson's "record" might be hurt by the team-wide struggles vs. lefties or it might be helped by sitting against tough righties. Either way, there isn't a significant difference in the team's record with one CF or the other.

I agree that Anderson should have played more in the second half, but it didn't make a six game difference in the Sox record.
That's interesting; thanks. I didn't realize the difference was so small.

Frater Perdurabo
09-23-2006, 01:36 PM
Sometimes you have to set the tone with a ballplayer immediately or he will not improve into the player you want him to be. If that player is a first round draft pick, the potential for greatness is there, but if you see bad habits, sometimes you have to not put your best team on the field in order to make a statement to that player...

I'm not saying this is the case with Anderson--I have no way of knowing that; I'm just saying that Ozzie looking to the long term might have more to do with making sure Anderson doesn't turn out to be the next Mike Cameron (not that I'm suggesting Mike Cameron's offensive mediocrity has anything to do with bad habits--i'm talking strictly numbers.)

I'd be quite pleased if Anderson turned out to be the kind of player that Mike Cameron is now; great defense (although Anderson actually may be better), good speed on the basepaths, an "average" average (.260-ish), with lots of doubles and triples. If I had had my way in 1998, Cameron would be mentoring Anderson right now.

If Ozzie wants to make a statement to Anderson, why not play Sweeney - who although is not as good as Anderson, remains far better in CF than Mackowiak?

Or, why didn't he move a natural outfielder like Jermaine Dye to center field and have Mackowiak play right? That would be a far better alternative to Mackowiak in CF.

caulfield12
09-23-2006, 01:52 PM
Or, why didn't he move a natural outfielder like Jermaine Dye to center field and have Mackowiak play right? That would be a far better alternative to Mackowiak in CF.


You're kidding, right? Dye is a natural RF, but he would have no prayer to cover CF. I bet Mack would still get to more balls than Jermaine in CF.

caulfield12
09-23-2006, 01:57 PM
Or that Ozzie has a longer term perspective than you. You are consistently assuming that Ozzie is "win, this season, at all costs." Ozzie has been making decisions based on preparing several players for next season for several months now. During the last month, his decisions have shifted almost entirely over toward preparing guys for next season.

To the some people who don't recognize that, Ozzie is not stupid.

Who is 4 years old now?

Because he played Sweeney a couple of times over Anderson or Mack?

The defending World Series champions don't play for next year...every move made this season with Anderson and Mackowiak was allegedly to get the best match-up to "win that particular game."

Any preparation for next year takes place in Winter Ball, Arizona Fall League or spring training.

Frater Perdurabo
09-23-2006, 02:07 PM
You're kidding, right? Dye is a natural RF, but he would have no prayer to cover CF. I bet Mack would still get to more balls than Jermaine in CF.

I'm not kidding.

Mack may be faster, but Jermaine has instincts that come from years of playing the outfield plus excellent athleticism plus the ability to use that athleticism to get good reads to close in on balls quickly despite the fact that he's not exceptionally swift.

Jermaine most definitely would NOT be an option in CF in a large park like Comerica, Petco, Coors, Ameriquest or Yankee Stadium. But I'm sure he would do a better job than Mackowiak anywhere and would be able to handle the position at the Cell.

fquaye149
09-23-2006, 02:15 PM
Yeah, but should PK, Thome, Crede, and Dye have to pay the price of not making the postseason so that BA, who is hitting ninth, learns a lesson? I'm not so sure. Of course, all four of those guys have played their own roles in this team's poor performance down the stretch, but if Brian was such a pain in the ass, why not send him to AAA and just trade for anyone that could catch the ball out in CF? That's why I think (obviously, I don't know for sure) there could be a little struggle behind the scenes between KW and Ozzie on this issue. I don't think KW is any more willing to put up with some rookie's ego-driven crap than Ozzie is.

This season did not hinge on Mackowiack/Anderson in center.

And yes, sometimes you have to give your rookies a trial by fire, in one way or another, even if that means your team suffers. That's why McCarthy's in the pen, for instance, an issue that I'm sure a lot of you all disagree with too.

But you have to make sure promising young talent gets on the right path. And if, in fact, Anderson does have an attitude problem (of course, I don't know that, nor do I have any information even suggesting that besides the fact that Ozzie's benching him) then that MUST BE STRAIGHTENED OUT. Otherwise a player might get superstar syndrome before he's even an adequate talent, stunting his development irreparably (for instance, Kerry Wood's mechanics....)

fquaye149
09-23-2006, 02:17 PM
I'd be quite pleased if Anderson turned out to be the kind of player that Mike Cameron is now; great defense (although Anderson actually may be better), good speed on the basepaths, an "average" average (.260-ish), with lots of doubles and triples. If I had had my way in 1998, Cameron would be mentoring Anderson right now.

If Ozzie wants to make a statement to Anderson, why not play Sweeney - who although is not as good as Anderson, remains far better in CF than Mackowiak?

Or, why didn't he move a natural outfielder like Jermaine Dye to center field and have Mackowiak play right? That would be a far better alternative to Mackowiak in CF.

Um, I wouldn't want Cameron in my lineup, unless he was hitting at the bottom.

Anderson has the talent to hit near the top of the order or towards the middle at some point in his career. If he doesn't make any adjustments from what he did this season, nor improve, he WILL be a Cameron player. If he does make adjustments, and allows himself to be coached (once again I don't know if this is even an issue, but he still needs to do it even if it's not) he will very likely be a good deal better offensively than Cameron, he of the 150+ K seasons and .250 avg

fquaye149
09-23-2006, 02:21 PM
Who is 4 years old now?

Because he played Sweeney a couple of times over Anderson or Mack?

The defending World Series champions don't play for next year...every move made this season with Anderson and Mackowiak was allegedly to get the best match-up to "win that particular game."

Any preparation for next year takes place in Winter Ball, Arizona Fall League or spring training.

But Ozzie's biggest role is to make sure he is in charge of the team. That's all he really can do. You've saw him bench Uribe (by FAR our best option at SS last year) during our 2005 campaign to send a message. This is especially important with rookies. If a manager can't show that his players need to respect his authority, you end up with that Gibbons fiasco in Toronto.

And that **** CAN cost you games THIS YEAR.

That's not to say that Ozzie has been great at that, or even mediocre, but his personnel moves have always been with a sight towards the season as a whole (for instance, playing subs often even beyond Mackowiack) and not just to try to win every single game.

Frater Perdurabo
09-23-2006, 03:19 PM
Um, I wouldn't want Cameron in my lineup, unless he was hitting at the bottom.

Anderson has the talent to hit near the top of the order or towards the middle at some point in his career. If he doesn't make any adjustments from what he did this season, nor improve, he WILL be a Cameron player. If he does make adjustments, and allows himself to be coached (once again I don't know if this is even an issue, but he still needs to do it even if it's not) he will very likely be a good deal better offensively than Cameron, he of the 150+ K seasons and .250 avg

Sure, I want Anderson to be a perennial All-Star. I'm just saying that I'd be satisfied with Anderson if in 10 years he's averaged .260, won multiple Gold Gloves, averaged 20 steals a year, and hit a good measure of extra-base hits, has bunted for hits and has executed sacrifices. For me, everything beyond that is gravy.

I think Anderson has made improvements this season, and it's evidenced in the fact that he recovered from his hurrible slump at the plate. Of course he needs more coaching. But a young, healthy player needs to play, especially when his vastly superior defense and his greater propensity to hit extra-base hits helps the Sox field their best possible team. I think he would have grown, learned and improved so much more, though, if Ozzie hadn't been such a stubborn jackass about playing Mackowiak 40% of the time.

Ozzie Guillen himself benefitted from playing almost every single game as a rookie in 1985, for a team that at the beginning of the season was expected to contend for the division (remember, 1984 was a disappointment from which the Sox were expected to return to a 1983-like record in 1985). Guillen learned far more playing every day instead of LaRussa benching him 2/5ths of the time to watch Scott Fletcher (who was far better defensively at short than Mackowiak is in CF) play?

Does Ozzie want Anderson to learn to bunt, hit the other way and/or behind the runner and/or hit sacrifice flies? If so, great! But if he's sitting on the bench, he can't practice these skills during game situations. Furthermore, who on this team has done any of that this year? Who, exactly, was/is Anderson supposed to watch do those things? (The opposing team?)

And really, *** can Anderson learn by watching Mackowiak play CF? How to make more errors? How to get poor reads? Indeed, he can watch opposing CFs when he's sitting in the dugout anyway, when the Sox are batting!

Anderson starting in CF gives/gave the Sox the best chance to win in 2006, just as Guillen starting at short gave the Sox the best chance to win in 1985.

Ozzie has mismanaged Brian Anderson. Let's hope he hasn't done any permanent harm.

ondafarm
09-23-2006, 04:47 PM
I'm not buying that Ozzie turned his attention toward next season in August. I'm certainly not buying that the plan is to have Mackowiak play CF a significant amount next year.

And I'm not saying that I see Mack playing significant CF next season either. But Ozzie has wanted to sit BA at times to get him to talk with Raines and Baines (two pretty fair outfielders) during games when instruction can be differently applied. Watching certain opposing CFs, with a little more intensity when you are not playing. Going over mistakes you did make in yesterday's game.

And greatest of all, convincing the kid, BA, that CF will not just be turned over to him next year, he has to work on things in winter ball and improve.

ondafarm
09-23-2006, 04:53 PM
To start playing for next season when you are in the middle of a pennant race this season doesn't exactly make him brilliant.
. .

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you are stupid.

Since almost everyone now agrees that the Sox are done this year, I'm wondering who had the first inkling of that. Do you think it could possibly be the manager, Ozzie Guillen, who knows the state of every player better than anybody else?

Just because you thought we were in the thick of the pennant race in August doesn't mean that Ozzie Guillen didn't know at that time that our guys had nothing left in the tank.

From day one you always prepare some things for next season. As you go further through the season, if you are feeling more confident in your ability to run strong and take this thing, then you might cut back on those things. If you know your guys are really dragging it then you a) make no deadline deals in August and b) re-emphasize the things for next season.

Jjav829
09-23-2006, 04:57 PM
Ozzie has mismanaged Brian Anderson. Let's hope he hasn't done any permanent harm.

And you know this how? It's one thing to argue that Ozzie mismanaged the team as a whole by saying that Ozzie should have had the best defensive player in center every game. It's a complete different issue to say that Ozzie mismanaged Brian Anderson individually. There's absolutely nothing to prove that this year. For all we know, Ozzie not hanging BA out to dry by running him out there everyday during that time BA was hitting .170 actually saved BA in the long run. We don't know.

Frater Perdurabo
09-23-2006, 07:13 PM
And you know this how?

It's my opinion, just like your opinions are yours. The fact that you disagree with mine doesn't make the opinion or me any more worthy of your scorn than any other opinion tossed around on here.

:rolleyes:

Jjav829
09-24-2006, 11:35 PM
It's my opinion, just like your opinions are yours. The fact that you disagree with mine doesn't make the opinion or me any more worthy of your scorn than any other opinion tossed around on here.

:rolleyes:

I never said my opinion was any more valid. But if you're going to make that accusation, you should have something to back it up. Hence my question. What makes you say that Ozzie has mismanaged Brian Anderson?

And note the difference I pointed out between mismanaging Brian Anderson himself and mismanaging the team by not putting the best defensive player out there.

Ol' No. 2
09-25-2006, 11:12 AM
I'm 100% certain that if Brian Anderson played for another team and I suggested we trade for him and make him our everyday CF, the unanimous opinion here would be that I'd lost my mind. This is not Joe DiMaggio reincarnated. This is just another good-glove rookie who's struggling at the plate, and in retrospect, was probably brought up too soon. He's done absolutely nothing thus far to earn anything more than a platoon role, which is exactly what he has.

I read Nellie Fox' comments with interest, because I've more or less come to the same conclusion (quite a coincidence, don't you think?). There's more going on here than is seen by outsiders, and unless anyone here has spent a significant time in the Sox clubhouse, you don't have any idea what the real story is. Just because you don't see the reason why Anderson is in Ozzie's doghouse doesn't mean there isn't one.

Grzegorz
09-25-2006, 11:42 AM
Just because you don't see the reason why Anderson is in Ozzie's doghouse doesn't mean there isn't one.

It's not being in the doghouse that I am questioning it is the reason behind Ozzie's putting BA into the proverbial doghouse that I am interested in.

Nellie_Fox
09-25-2006, 11:48 AM
It's not being in the doghouse that I am questioning it is the reason behind Ozzie's putting BA into the proverbial doghouse that I am interested in.When Ozzie tells the press why he's pissed at a player, people on here go nuts, accusing him of "throwing so-and-so under the bus" (by the way, that phrase is long past overused) and when he doesn't, people demand an explanation or assume that there isn't one, just personal animosity toward the poor rookie.

Either Ozzie should air the dirty laundry or he shouldn't; which is it?

caulfield12
09-25-2006, 11:54 AM
When Ozzie tells the press why he's pissed at a player, people on here go nuts, accusing him of "throwing so-and-so under the bus" (by the way, that phrase is long past overused) and when he doesn't, people demand an explanation or assume that there isn't one, just personal animosity toward the poor rookie.

Either Ozzie should air the dirty laundry or he shouldn't; which is it?

I prefer he not, unless it's something that affects the entire team's opinion of him and they need to hold a "team meeting" for the player to apologize, like the Twins did after Silva pulled himself from a game.

Ol' No. 2
09-25-2006, 11:58 AM
I prefer he not, unless it's something that affects the entire team's opinion of him and they need to hold a "team meeting" for the player to apologize, like the Twins did after Silva pulled himself from a game.IMO, there's considerable grey area here. As fans we have some expectation to know what's going on with the team, but that doesn't mean every bit of laundry has to be aired out. There's a very fine line a manager has to walk, and it's by no means an easy task.

Paulwny
09-25-2006, 12:02 PM
IMO, there's considerable grey area here. As fans we have some expectation to know what's going on with the team, but that doesn't mean every bit of laundry has to be aired out. There's a very fine line a manager has to walk, and it's by no means an easy task.\

Agree, it's fine for people here to speculate, but as the saying goes, "What happens in the club house should stay in the club house. "

Grzegorz
09-25-2006, 12:09 PM
Either Ozzie should air the dirty laundry or he shouldn't; which is it?

Ok, instead of "thrown under the bus" we'll use "hung out to dry". Is that better??? :D:

I don't want to hear the reason from Ozzie's mouth; he's a BS artist. I want the reason revealed and I want the reason sourced extensively. Yeesh, to hear the reason from Ozzie's mouth?? No way...

fquaye149
09-25-2006, 12:47 PM
Ok, instead of "thrown under the bus" we'll use "hung out to dry". Is that better??? :D:

I don't want to hear the reason from Ozzie's mouth; he's a BS artist. I want the reason revealed and I want the reason sourced extensively. Yeesh, to hear the reason from Ozzie's mouth?? No way...

Hmm...well at least Ozzie could conceivably please you somehow in this situation...

oh wait.

maurice
09-25-2006, 02:25 PM
I don't see how a reasonable person can become convinced that Ozzie is lying to cover up mysterious alternative reasons, when even the proponents of the argument admit that it's 100% speculation. "You don't know 'cause you're not in the clubhouse" is not a reasonable response. I don't know that BA didn't sleep with Ozzie's wife or run over his dog or PO the Flying Spaghetti Monster either, but that doesn't make it so. The burden is on the folks making the affirmative claim, and they concede that there is no evidence. On the contrary, there is loads of evidence that Ozzie's actions are based on some ridiculous beliefs and loads of evidence that Ozzie REFUSES to cover up anything and keep it in-house (including Ozzie's repeated statements to this effect).

Ozzie is not a liar, just an unreasonable person. KW will have to deal with this during the offseason. Step 1 will be upgrading the leadoff spot, so he can't keep leading off with Podsednik in 2007.

maurice
09-25-2006, 02:31 PM
But if you're going to make that accusation, you should have something to back it up.

Yes, please. There are tons of baseless accusations flying around these threads. Some of them are based on no evidence while others are directly contrary to the evidence. Many of them imply that somebody is a liar or a charlatan.

Ol' No. 2
09-25-2006, 02:38 PM
I don't see how a reasonable person can become convinced that Ozzie is lying to cover up mysterious alternative reasons, when even the proponents of the argument admit that it's 100% speculation. "You don't know 'cause you're not in the clubhouse" is not a reasonable response. I don't know that BA didn't sleep with Ozzie's wife or run over his dog or PO the Flying Spaghetti Monster either, but that doesn't make it so. The burden is on the folks making the affirmative claim, and they concede that there is no evidence. On the contrary, there is loads of evidence that Ozzie's actions are based on some ridiculous beliefs and loads of evidence that Ozzie REFUSES to cover up anything and keep it in-house (including Ozzie's repeated statements to this effect).

Ozzie is not a liar, just an unreasonable person. KW will have to deal with this during the offseason. Step 1 will be upgrading the leadoff spot, so he can't keep leading off with Podsednik in 2007.Why is it not just as unreasonable to presume that Ozzie has no reason for what he does, just because you don't know what it is or don't agree?

caulfield12
09-25-2006, 02:41 PM
Why is it not just as unreasonable to presume that Ozzie has no reason for what he does, just because you don't know what it is or don't agree?

The only argument is that he won the WS last year and we have been above .500 each season.

Now, the only way we could have a better insight is if there some type of simulation baseball game that could track manager's historical tendencies and play out seasons with different managers (from the past and present and even computer "competitors" like the IBM Blue) for all of the teams.

Now that would be interesting. Especially the idea of sacrificing and giving up outs to get early leads or manufacturing runs versus swinging away for the three run homers.

Of course, none of that would easily be able to account for "openness," setting the tone, discipline, overmanaging, clubhouse relationships (Gaston or Manuel versus Dusty or Ozzie), sticking up for your players, yadda yadda.

maurice
09-25-2006, 02:45 PM
Why is it not just as unreasonable to presume that Ozzie has no reason for what he does, just because you don't know what it is or don't agree?

It is EXTREMELY unreasonable to presume that Ozzie has no reason for what he does, particularly when he is asked for his reasons and gives detailed answers. Given his history, it is reasonable to assume that any answer he gives IS his real reason, even if it's not logical.

There are very many illogical people in the world. They are not lying when they say ridiculous things, because they really truly believe that their ridiculous statements are true. It's possible to be wrong without being a liar.

caulfield12
09-25-2006, 02:49 PM
It is EXTREMELY unreasonable to presume that Ozzie has no reason for what he does, particularly when he is asked for his reasons and gives detailed answers. Given his history, it is reasonable to assume that any answer he gives IS his real reason, even if it's not logical.

There are very many illogical people in the world. They are not lying when they say ridiculous things, because they really truly believe that their ridiculous statements are true. It's possible to be wrong without being a liar.

See Clarence Hill/Anita Thomas. Two human beings who legitimately believed they were telling the truth or that their version of the truth was repeated so many times inside their heads that they actually came to believe it to be the truth...enough to pass polygraph tests.

Ol' No. 2
09-25-2006, 02:53 PM
It is EXTREMELY unreasonable to presume that Ozzie has no reason for what he does, particularly when he is asked for his reasons and gives detailed answers. Given his history, it is reasonable to assume that any answer he gives IS his real reason, even if it's not logical.

There are very many illogical people in the world. They are not lying when they say ridiculous things, because they really truly believe that their ridiculous statements are true. It's possible to be wrong without being a liar.But you seem to be presuming that there can be no reasons other than what is public. I find that extremely unreasonable.

In fact, while they were still with the team, Ozzie kept to himself his thoughts on many players who were later traded (e.g. CLee), so past history would indicate that your premise is exactly wrong.

caulfield12
09-25-2006, 02:59 PM
But you seem to be presuming that there can be no reasons other than what is public. I find that extremely unreasonable.

In fact, while they were still with the team, Ozzie kept to himself his thoughts on many players who were later traded (e.g. CLee), so past history would indicate that your premise is exactly wrong.

Included in that list (from an organizational perspective)....

Magglio Ordonez
Carlos Lee
Kenny Lofton
Miguel Olivo
D'Angelo Jimenez
Royce Clayton

maurice
09-25-2006, 03:23 PM
But you seem to be presuming that there can be no reasons other than what is public.

No, there CAN be other reasons. However, it is not reasonable to become convinced that the other reason is X, when there is no evidence supporting X. My other objection is that the speculation here presumes that Ozzie is lying. If you concede that Ozzie is truthful, then speculation is pointless. If Ozzie's BS reasons were correct, they would completely justify platooning Anderson. There would be no need for a secret, alternate reason. Moreover, if the speculation were true, it would justify an outright benching in favor of Mackowiak, not a platoon. Whle Mackowiak is overutilized in CF, he still plays significantly less often than Anderson. Thus, it is unreasonable to claim that stated reasons are a smokescreen and that speculation is truth.

Ozzie kept to himself his thoughts on many players who were later traded (e.g. CLee), so past history would indicate that your premise is exactly wrong.

Strawman again. First, as I said, that's not my premise. Second, Ozzie didn't platoon CLee and give false reasons for the platooning. He played him every day with no smokescreen. So much for the "past history" argument. Third, CLee's lack of fundamental baseball was not a clubhouse secret. Anybody on this board could have told you that CLee had poor fundamentals and a lackadaisical attitude from watching him play on a daily basis. No speculation was required. Fourth, the fact that Ozzie didn't like the way that CLee slides says absolutely nothing about the way that Anderson conducts himself.

We're still left with evidence v. no evidence. Evidence wins.

Ol' No. 2
09-25-2006, 03:54 PM
No, there CAN be other reasons. However, it is not reasonable to become convinced that the other reason is X, when there is no evidence supporting X. My other objection is that the speculation here presumes that Ozzie is lying. If you concede that Ozzie is truthful, then speculation is pointless. If Ozzie's BS reasons were correct, they would completely justify platooning Anderson. There would be no need for a secret, alternate reason. Moreover, if the speculation were true, it would justify an outright benching in favor of Mackowiak, not a platoon. Whle Mackowiak is overutilized in CF, he still plays significantly less often than Anderson. Thus, it is unreasonable to claim that stated reasons are a smokescreen and that speculation is truth.



Strawman again. First, as I said, that's not my premise. Second, Ozzie didn't platoon CLee and give false reasons for the platooning. He played him every day with no smokescreen. So much for the "past history" argument. Third, CLee's lack of fundamental baseball was not a clubhouse secret. Anybody on this board could have told you that CLee had poor fundamentals and a lackadaisical attitude from watching him play on a daily basis. No speculation was required. Fourth, the fact that Ozzie didn't like the way that CLee slides says absolutely nothing about the way that Anderson conducts himself.

We're still left with evidence v. no evidence. Evidence wins.Talk about strawmen!!! Please show me one case where I or anyone else here has stated that they're convinced the reason is X. Neither does any speculation as to other reasons rest on any presumption that Ozzie is lying. You're just making that one up out of whole cloth.

Ozzie has offered publicly several reasons why Anderson is platooning, not the least of which he does not get good AB. This is pretty plain to anyone with eyes. He strikes out a ton, and on very bad pitches. He almost never walks. He doesn't have the ability to foul off pitches to keep an AB alive. Have you not seen him miss by six inches on a breaking ball away? While that happens to all players sometimes, it happens to him a lot, and even worse, on hitters' counts. While he seemed to have better AB mid-summer, to me he's regressed over the last month or so. And when you consider that he's doing this while almost never facing the toughest RH pitchers, it's not hard to see why he's limited to platooning. You want evidence? There it is if you'll just take off your blinders.

In addition, none of these factors preclude additional reasons that are not public. You just choose to reject the possibility because Ozzie isn't playing your fair-haired boy.

Honestly, if he played for another team and I suggested the Sox trade for him and make him their everyday CF, people here would think I was nuts.

JB98
09-25-2006, 06:45 PM
Talk about strawmen!!! Please show me one case where I or anyone else here has stated that they're convinced the reason is X. Neither does any speculation as to other reasons rest on any presumption that Ozzie is lying. You're just making that one up out of whole cloth.

Ozzie has offered publicly several reasons why Anderson is platooning, not the least of which he does not get good AB. This is pretty plain to anyone with eyes. He strikes out a ton, and on very bad pitches. He almost never walks. He doesn't have the ability to foul off pitches to keep an AB alive. Have you not seen him miss by six inches on a breaking ball away? While that happens to all players sometimes, it happens to him a lot, and even worse, on hitters' counts. While he seemed to have better AB mid-summer, to me he's regressed over the last month or so. And when you consider that he's doing this while almost never facing the toughest RH pitchers, it's not hard to see why he's limited to platooning. You want evidence? There it is if you'll just take off your blinders.

In addition, none of these factors preclude additional reasons that are not public. You just choose to reject the possibility because Ozzie isn't playing your fair-haired boy.

Honestly, if he played for another team and I suggested the Sox trade for him and make him their everyday CF, people here would think I was nuts.

Let's face it: Anderson has become a beloved figure on this board because Mackowiak struggles defensively. Just because Mackowiak is bad does not mean Anderson is good.

I'm with you, No. 2. It's blatantly obvious to me why Anderson isn't playing every day. He's not a good hitter.

Frater Perdurabo
09-25-2006, 09:01 PM
Let's face it: Anderson has become a beloved figure on this board because Mackowiak struggles defensively. Just because Mackowiak is bad does not mean Anderson is good.

I'm with you, No. 2. It's blatantly obvious to me why Anderson isn't playing every day. He's not a good hitter.

But Anderson is the better player. He's always been the vastly superior fielder. He had more extra-base hits per at bat and per plate appearance than Mackowiak. And he hit reasonably well in the second half; good enough to start on most teams not managed by Ozzie Guillen.

JB98
09-25-2006, 09:03 PM
But Anderson is the better player. He's always been the vastly superior fielder. He had more extra-base hits per at bat and per plate appearance than Mackowiak. And he hit reasonably well in the second half; good enough to start on most teams not managed by Ozzie Guillen.

Anderson wouldn't start on another team in our division.

Frater Perdurabo
09-25-2006, 09:04 PM
Anderson wouldn't start on another team in our division.

And neither would Mackowiak. Not in CF, anyway.

And during the second half, Anderson has been the better player in all phases of the game.

JB98
09-25-2006, 09:07 PM
And neither would Mackowiak. Not in CF, anyway.

And during the second half, Anderson has been the better player in all phases of the game.

My point all along is we have two horrible CFs. HORRIBLE. Ozzie has no good option out there. Anderson is putrid against right-handed pitchers who have even a halfway decent slider, which Ol No. 2 has already pointed out. He's so bad you just can't afford to play him against guys like John Lackey or Jeremy Bonderman.

champagne030
09-25-2006, 09:07 PM
Honestly, if he played for another team and I suggested the Sox trade for him and make him their everyday CF, people here would think I was nuts.


They wouldn't think you were nuts if Mack was the CF he was replacing.


Let's face it: Anderson has become a beloved figure on this board because Mackowiak struggles defensively. Just because Mackowiak is bad does not mean Anderson is good.

I'm with you, No. 2. It's blatantly obvious to me why Anderson isn't playing every day. He's not a good hitter.


And round and round it goes......Anderson, in CF, still gives the White Sox the best chance to win a game.

JB98
09-25-2006, 09:08 PM
And round and round it goes......Anderson, in CF, still gives the White Sox the best chance to win a game.

And that, my friend, is a truly sad commentary about the state of the 2006 White Sox.

champagne030
09-25-2006, 09:16 PM
My point all along is we have two horrible CFs. HORRIBLE. Ozzie has no good option out there. Anderson is putrid against right-handed pitchers who have even a halfway decent slider, which Ol No. 2 has already pointed out. He's so bad you just can't afford to play him against guys like John Lackey or Jeremy Bonderman.

Actually, he can hit the power RH pitchers. He has problems with the Paul Bryd's of the world. He hits RH's better than LH's. He has problems with "powder puff" pitches....like most of our team.

JB98
09-25-2006, 09:19 PM
Actually, he can hit the power RH pitchers. He has problems with the Paul Bryd's of the world. He hits RH's better than LH's. He has problems with "powder puff" pitches....like most of our team.

He looked pathetic against Felix Hernandez on Saturday. He was missing Hernandez's slider by a foot, and he couldn't lay off it even though it was 8-10 inches outside.

Ol' No. 2
09-25-2006, 09:23 PM
Actually, he can hit the power RH pitchers. He has problems with the Paul Bryd's of the world. He hits RH's better than LH's. He has problems with "powder puff" pitches....like most of our team.He doesn't hit power RH pitchers because he usually sits against them (actually, it's the other way around).

vs. RH SO leaders
Bonderman: 3 starts against CWS, Anderson sat all three
Schilling: 1 start against CWS, Anderson 2-4 with 1 K
Lackey: 1 start against CWS, Anderson sat
Haren: 1 start against CWS, Anderson sat
Mussina: 2 starts against CWS, Anderson 2-6 with 2 K

I still say if he played for another team and I suggested the Sox trade for him to be the everyday CF people here would think I'm nuts. You make the call:

http://losangeles.angels.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_435042.jpg .229/.297/.368

http://losangeles.angels.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_400021.jpg .232/.319/.404