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Qdaddy
09-18-2006, 10:10 PM
Can someone please tell me why BMAC is untouchable?

I mean this guy is only good for one inning than poof...a 3-run homer. I know I'll have people argue with me saying that he's a starter and it's a completely different than coming in as a reliever, but com'on! It's still comes down to making pitches and throwing strikes.

Even if he doesn't make a lot of money if a team is willing to trade us something good for him than I hope KW is all ears because this guy sure can stink up the joint quick.

I think KW is the best GM in baseball, but I think if he could go back in time he definitely would have sured up the bullpen better.

Do you guys agree??

Sorry, I'm just venting due to our 2006 choke job.

batmanZoSo
09-18-2006, 10:11 PM
I agree. And to top it off, he's not gonna hold up for more than 3-5 years with that skinny arm of his with the hard breaking stuff. He'll be Black Jack II without the success. Trade him while the gettin's good.

whitesoxfan
09-18-2006, 10:12 PM
Too bad we couldn't have traded him for Soriano when we had the chance.

But hey, where would Pods play then?

0o0o0
09-18-2006, 10:13 PM
I still think he can make a decent starter. It's hard to tell with him in that relief role. Although as Bats said, you can get a ton for him.

Beer Can Chicken
09-18-2006, 10:16 PM
Can someone please tell me why Fingernails on a blackboard is untouchable?

I mean this guy is only good for one inning than poof...a 3-run homer. I know I'll have people argue with me saying that he's a starter and it's a completely different than coming in as a reliever, but com'on! It's still comes down to making pitches and throwing strikes.

Even if he doesn't make a lot of money if a team is willing to trade us something good for him than I hope KW is all ears because this guy sure can stink up the joint quick.

I think KW is the best GM in baseball, but I think if he could go back in time he definitely would have sured up the bullpen better.

Do you guys agree??

Sorry, I'm just venting due to our 2006 choke job.

He's a starting pitcher in a relief 'role'. I put role in quotes because he didnt have one. He was misused completely this year and I sincerely hope it doesn't affect his ability to be a qulaity starter in the future. I'm afraid that it may.

LuvSox
09-18-2006, 10:17 PM
Does everybody get a thread?

I want a thread!

0o0o0
09-18-2006, 10:26 PM
Does everybody get a thread?

I want a thread!

I'd honestly start one but it'd get roadhoused and I'd get banned. Sorry sucka. :D:

Qdaddy
09-18-2006, 10:26 PM
He's a starting pitcher in a relief 'role'. I put role in quotes because he didnt have one. He was misused completely this year and I sincerely hope it doesn't affect his ability to be a qulaity starter in the future. I'm afraid that it may.

Why would it affect his ability to be a quality starter? According to Hawk and all of the old school baseball guys every starter had to be a reliever first, so that's a cop out.

It's called, "Here's a ball kid throw strike and get that guy out."

Jjav829
09-18-2006, 10:27 PM
I'd hold on to McCarthy and I think KW will. KW has a lot invested in McCarthy. He really believes McCarthy will be a quality starter and I'm going to agree. Remember, KW wouldn't trade Bmac even when he had every reason to in 2005 at the trading deadline. No one could have blamed KW if he traded McCarthy back then for another piece to help us try to win our first World Series since 1917. But KW resisted and held onto McCarthy.

We haven't even seen McCarthy get one real chance at starting and people are already giving up on him? Come on...

batmanZoSo
09-18-2006, 10:27 PM
I'd honestly start one but it'd get roadhoused and I'd get banned. Sorry sucka. :D:

Yeah but you'd be a legend.

http://www.ontariocollegeofparamedics.ca/Images/lpcvhuy0%5B1%5D.jpghm.....:tongue:

LuvSox
09-18-2006, 10:29 PM
I'd honestly start one but it'd get roadhoused and I'd get banned. Sorry sucka. :D:

And to think, I gave you alcohol when your house was burning down.

CLR01
09-18-2006, 10:32 PM
And to think, I gave you alcohol when your house was burning down.


Yeah but you were also standing there with gasoline and a lighter. :tsk:

LuvSox
09-18-2006, 10:33 PM
Yeah but you were also standing there with gasoline and a lighter. :tsk:

I needed somebody to drink with.



And back to the topic.................

eurotrash35
09-18-2006, 10:37 PM
I think the mismanagement of mccarthy was one of the major boners of the '06 campaign. he was a big chip that we just stuck in our pocket. either put him in play or cash him in, but why the hell would we just sit on him? especially with the way things turned out. thumbs down on that one.

Hitmen77
09-18-2006, 10:39 PM
Makes me wonder if the "trade a starter and make B.Mac a starter" plan for next year is such a good idea. If you think this year was bad - what happens if he struggles as a starter next year?

kitekrazy
09-18-2006, 10:40 PM
Ready to give up on McCarhty so fast?

There's another guy called John Garland. Shouldn't McCarthy be given the same amount of patience?

I don't Soriano would have made the difference.

Hitmen77
09-18-2006, 10:45 PM
Does everybody get a thread?

I want a thread!

How about a Josh Fields thread? :)

LuvSox
09-18-2006, 10:46 PM
How about a Josh Fields thread? :)

He has the most amazing avg, obs, ops, dds, suv and xyz i've ever seen. :D:

buehrle4cy05
09-18-2006, 10:57 PM
If I was KW, I would sign another starter in the offseason (assuming Garcia/Vazquez is traded) just so McCarthy knows that if he ****s up, it's back to the bullpen for him. You can't just hand a starting spot to him next year when he hasn't earned it this year. He has to be motivated to pitch well, which he may not have been pitching out of the bullpen this year.

Frontman
09-18-2006, 11:15 PM
If I was KW, I would sign another starter in the offseason (assuming Garcia/Vazquez is traded) just so McCarthy knows that if he ****s up, it's back to the bullpen for him. You can't just hand a starting spot to him next year when he hasn't earned it this year. He has to be motivated to pitch well, which he may not have been pitching out of the bullpen this year.

Tigers
Twins= 1.5 Games Back
White Sox= 6 Games Back

What more motivation does he need? I'm sorry, but Brandon has pissed me off with his attitude of "aw well. Hope it doesn't cost us."

Damn right it cost the Sox. You throw the pitch that gives up the Game Winning run, you did cost the team the win. I like Brandon, but his attitude towards his role, starter/relief really kicked me in the gut. Get focused, Brandon!

I hope that his potential will equal his production, but that certainly hasn't been the case when he's come out of the bullpen this year.

Front

Hitmen77
09-18-2006, 11:22 PM
If I was KW, I would sign another starter in the offseason (assuming Garcia/Vazquez is traded) just so McCarthy knows that if he ****s up, it's back to the bullpen for him. You can't just hand a starting spot to him next year when he hasn't earned it this year. He has to be motivated to pitch well, which he may not have been pitching out of the bullpen this year.

Tonight I was wondering why the Sox didn't go after Kenny Rogers last winter instead of trading for Vazquez? The Tigers signed Rogers for less than what Javy is making. We wouldn't have had to give up El Duque, Vizcaino, and Chris Young to get him, and he wouldn't be propelling a division rival past us into the playoffs.

Was signing Rogers ever considered as an option?

Frontman
09-18-2006, 11:26 PM
Tonight I was wondering why the Sox didn't go after Kenny Rogers last winter instead of trading for Vazquez? The Tigers signed Rogers for less than what Javy is making. We wouldn't have had to give up El Duque, Vizcaino, and Chris Young to get him, and he wouldn't be propelling a division rival past us into the playoffs.

Was signing Rogers ever considered as an option?

I never heard his name brought up in any public reports. Who knows what they considered yet didn't let the public know.

Front

100 Year Itch
09-18-2006, 11:28 PM
How much of the $12.5 million owed to Vazquez in 2007 is Arizona picking up?

Garcia is owed $10, Garland $10, Contreras $9 and the Sox have a 9.5 million dollar option on Buerhle.

Which of the five starters is currently the biggest bargaining chip?

I think Buerhle and Garcia are the most likely to be shipped in the offseason, probably to a NL team.

Grzegorz
09-19-2006, 04:39 AM
You can't just hand a starting spot to him next year when he hasn't earned it this year. He has to be motivated to pitch well, which he may not have been pitching out of the bullpen this year.

He will have to prove himself in spring training. He's not the only starter that should be relegated to the bullpen if they can't find the strikezone.

Pinning this season on McCarthy, Pods, Uribe, & Konerko is a red herring.

All these fact ran together along with some pretty poor managerial moves.

If I am KW I also take a serious look at the field level management.

As was mentioned in another thread, the White Sox preceded Frank Thomas and they'll live on past Frank Thomas.

This same point can be made about Ozzie, especially Ozzie.

Madvora
09-19-2006, 07:27 AM
Right now it doesn't look like McCarthy is going to be the pitcher we all thought he was going to be, but we're not banking on this guy being our #1 starter next year. He's going to be in the back of the rotation where he should do fine.
Obviously, we've learned that performance in one year doesn't mean the same performance the next. Look at the downfalls of Politte and Cotts and the positive performance of Matt Thornton.

Things could change for McCarthy next year. Let's hope he gets it together.

russ99
09-19-2006, 08:04 AM
I'd hold on to McCarthy and I think KW will. KW has a lot invested in McCarthy. He really believes McCarthy will be a quality starter and I'm going to agree. Remember, KW wouldn't trade Fingernails on a blackboard even when he had every reason to in 2005 at the trading deadline. No one could have blamed KW if he traded McCarthy back then for another piece to help us try to win our first World Series since 1917. But KW resisted and held onto McCarthy.

We haven't even seen McCarthy get one real chance at starting and people are already giving up on him? Come on...

Great points, but you have to wonder if the second half with all the bad innings and homers given up may have messed with his confidence.

BeviBall!
09-19-2006, 08:05 AM
Too bad we couldn't have traded him for Soriano when we had the chance.

But hey, where would Pods play then?

I was one of the few who wanted Soriano here big time. No one will ever know what would've happened, but we can safely say Soriano would not have a 6+ ERA in the second half.

itsnotrequired
09-19-2006, 08:07 AM
Ready to give up on McCarhty so fast?

There's another guy called John Garland. Shouldn't McCarthy be given the same amount of patience?

I don't Soriano would have made the difference.

Can he pitch as well as Jon Garland?

:tongue:

CLR01
09-19-2006, 08:26 AM
I was one of the few who wanted Soriano here big time. No one will ever know what would've happened, but we can safely say Soriano would not have a 6+ ERA in the second half.



No but whoever would have filled McCarthy's role in the bullpen probably would have.

MadetoOrta
09-19-2006, 08:54 AM
How much of the $12.5 million owed to Vazquez in 2007 is Arizona picking up?

Garcia is owed $10, Garland $10, Contreras $9 and the Sox have a 9.5 million dollar option on Buerhle.

Which of the five starters is currently the biggest bargaining chip?

I think Buerhle and Garcia are the most likely to be shipped in the offseason, probably to a NL team.

I think KW's going to shop the LAA game last week [Freddy's near Perfect Game] to every team in baseball. What we get in return is the key. I will say this about Freddy, he's 6 innings from another 200+ IP season and he still wins games for us. I think KW puts them all on the block to see who brings what. I'm in the minority here but Freddy's numbers are still solid except for the ERA.

ws05champs
09-19-2006, 09:00 AM
Randy Johnson took several years to develop his control. Perhaps KW sees McCarthy with his height as being similar to Johnson (6'-7" vs. 6'-10" for Johnson) and he may need more time to develop. With McCarthy's trade value, there appears to be a lot of GMs that see his potnetial also.

The Immigrant
09-19-2006, 09:08 AM
How much of the $12.5 million owed to Vazquez in 2007 is Arizona picking up?

Garcia is owed $10, Garland $10, Contreras $9 and the Sox have a 9.5 million dollar option on Buerhle.

Which of the five starters is currently the biggest bargaining chip?

I think Buerhle and Garcia are the most likely to be shipped in the offseason, probably to a NL team.

Garland is the biggest bargaining chip, but he's not going anywhere. I also cannot imagine that Kenny is ready to give up on Vazquez, especially given that he pitched well for us down the stretch. Buehrle's option for 2007 will get picked up, but I don't think he gets extended until the team is convinced he can get his control back (and the 2nd half of this year was a fluke).

In my view, Contreras is the biggest bargaining chip because he's signed through 2008, and I imagine Kenny will be entertaining some offers for him. He should certainly bring more in return than Freddy. On the other hand, if Freddy really is starting to figure out how to be a finesse pitcher, hanging on to him for another year may not be the worst move. Either way, the "bounty of riches" we thought we had in our starting rotation + McCarthy has nowhere near the value it did at the All Star Break. :angry:

hold2dibber
09-19-2006, 09:46 AM
Dealing McCarthy would make no sense. While he may have had a lot of trade value before, his near 5 ERA this season almost certainly has greatly reduced his trade value. You sell high, not low! It would be a huge mistake to move him now because: (1) his value is low; (2) his potential remains high (remember what he did down the stretch as a starter in '05); and (3) he's cheap, and the Sox almost certainly will have to move one of their expensive starting pitchers in the off season for payroll purposes (they have $99 million committed to just 12 players for next year - something's gotta give).

With that said, I wouldn't just hand McCarthy the job next year. He'll have to compete with Haeger, Tracey, maybe even Redding, Cotts and/or Thornton for a spot in the rotation. They also should try to catch lightening in a bottle by bringing in a re-tread or someone coming off injury to spring training to compete for the job (like they did in the past with Loaiza and others have done successfully).

My confidence in McCarthy is not high right now. But he did enough in the minors, and showed me enough as a starter, as well as some flashes out of the pen, to convince me that he should get a shot. Move one of the other starters (anyone but Garland) and use that $ to pay Crede and/or a SS or LF who can lead off, and have confidence that one of your up-and-coming starters can be an adequate 5th starter. (And as inconsistent as McCarthy has been out of the pen, he has been about equal to Buehrle, Vazquez and Garcia this season -- his ERA is comparable with those three, his K rate is higher than Buehrle's or Garcia's, and unlike the other 3, he has allowed less hits than IP -- all of which lead me to believe that starting him next year as compared to one of those 3 guys probably isn't going to be a downgrade).

0o0o0
09-19-2006, 09:47 AM
And to think, I gave you alcohol when your house was burning down.

Oh, that was actually my neighbors' house, not mine. But, you know, thanks for the booze. :D:

Chicken Dinner
09-19-2006, 10:01 AM
Unfortunately, Buerhle and the offense gave this game up before McCarthy even took the bump. The homers and walks are very concerning though.

Flight #24
09-19-2006, 10:14 AM
Here's a little game I like to call "recency bias".

2005: 67IP, 4.03ERA, 1.18WHIP, 2.82K/BB
2006: 76IP, 4.95IP, 1.32ERA, 1.97K/BB

Fairly similar (and small) sample sizes, but 05's is primarily as a starter and '06's as a reliever. Yet somehow, we should determine that returning to a starting role will result in failure for young Brandon?:?:

Yes, he's sucked of late. But it's really only the past 1-2 months that he's been horrid(6.18ERA in 28IP post-ASB). Comparing that relief stint to his minor league career (as a starter) and his 2005 (as a starter) makes using the recent stats problematic when projecting him as a starter. Much like using Jenks and Thornton's struggles as a starter to project performance as a reliever would be problematic.

Brandon will be fine as a starter. Nothing I've seen in the last 30-odd IP from him convinces me of anything that he's going through some standard rookie-type of struggles that are magnified because a)he's in a new role and b)the team around him is struggling.

cws05champ
09-19-2006, 10:16 AM
You don't think all the other teams in the majors would love to trade for a guy like MCarthy...young, good arm, cheap SP. This would be a huge mistake...even though he hasn't pitched up to most expectations, he was adjusting to a full 162 game major league schedule, and as a reliever vs starting in which he is clearly more comfortable.

Does anybody remember what Buehrle's ERA was when he came up in BP in 2000? He made 3 starts and had a 5.74 ERA, and 3.53 ERA out of the BP in half a season(35IP-28 appearances), for a total of 4.21 ERA. McCarthy 4.95 ERA in 76 IP. IMHO McCathy was totally misused this year out of the Pen as well. Their numbers are not that different considering Buerhle pitched only half the innings that McCarthy did at the major league level.

If we traded Buehrle after 2000 because he has a 5.74 ERA as a starter...where would we be today? It is hard to say right now amid the pathetic play we have seen from the team as a whole, but have some patience and perspective...you do not trade what was considered the jewel of your farm system(Pitching wise).

If we gave up on McCarthy now...you might as well call us the Cubs(ala Corey Patterson among a long list)

we be jake
09-19-2006, 05:38 PM
He's a starting pitcher in a relief 'role'. I put role in quotes because he didnt have one. He was misused completely this year and I sincerely hope it doesn't affect his ability to be a qulaity starter in the future. I'm afraid that it may.


He was mis-used last year too! They had a great chance to give him some starts and valuable experience but acted like they were afraid he might actually work out as a starter. I think they showed him they had no confidence in him and threw his name around as trade bait (and have all off-season and this year too) letting him know clearly what he meant to his team. I have never seen a young player with so much promise so mis-used.

JB98
09-19-2006, 10:16 PM
I'd hold on to McCarthy and I think KW will. KW has a lot invested in McCarthy. He really believes McCarthy will be a quality starter and I'm going to agree. Remember, KW wouldn't trade Fingernails on a blackboard even when he had every reason to in 2005 at the trading deadline. No one could have blamed KW if he traded McCarthy back then for another piece to help us try to win our first World Series since 1917. But KW resisted and held onto McCarthy.

We haven't even seen McCarthy get one real chance at starting and people are already giving up on him? Come on...

I agree. Next year, let's give McCarthy 30 starts as a No. 5 starter and find out what we have.