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Frontman
09-18-2006, 07:11 PM
Hey gang,

As I woke up from my I thought was a nightmare to only see that yes, the Sox did just drop 3 to Oakland, putting them on the edge of elimination, I could not help but compare the defending champs, to another defending Chicago team. Back in 1986, the odds makers were saying the Bears would repeat as Superbowl champions. At the beginning of this year, the oddsmakers were saying that the White Sox would repeat.

Now, I could be wrong, but I'm seeing a whole heck of a lot of similarities to the current imploded Sox team to the 1986 Bears team. Too many commerical endorsements. Too many TV specials. Too many media appearances. In 1986, the Bears were everywhere. The Mike Ditka Show. Mongo on Sunday Night Sports on Channel 5. The commericals. Good God did we love those commericals. And then, while the Bears made the playoffs, they were done, and soon after; that team went nowhere near the playoffs. Twenty years later, the same can be said about the Sox.

What the hell is with the Score complaining about the Sox being distracted and not focused, when you have the following:

AJ on Monday mornings
Don Cooper on Tuesday Mornings
Brandon McCarthy on Friday afternoons
Various random players on at various times

Now, I understand the concept of player appearances and doing endorsements, but dammit, all this stuff not focusing on the game is a factor in this teams approach to the game. Don Cooper has endorsed a number of products, while our pitching staff is not doing a damn thing other than throwing grapefruits for the opposing team to knock out of the park. Its pretty pathetic that Coop seems to have time to endorse the "Little guys" and appear on air with the HOFHDV (Hall Of Fame Hot Dog Vendor) yet he can't get the "Future of White Sox" Pitching Brandon "I can't keep the ball in the park" McCarthy on track. Maybe because McCarthy is busy laughing it up on the radio about his teddy bear, even though he cost us two games during the previous week. I get really pissed with the "He should be in the rotation" when he can't even get two batters out in a row recently.

What the hell is up with having Ozzie on for a 5 segment special on his life? Come on, that one is a bit much. Even if it was done during the off-season, having your mug on TV for things not directly related to the days game is a distraction.

I'm glad that Hawk let loose on the team this past weekend. This has been annoying to see a team that could easily build a dynasty squander and waste the opportunity to win another championship. I will always be thankful that 2005 brought Sox fans a championship. I would hate to always think of the 2006 team as a championship wasted.

Front

veeter
09-18-2006, 07:36 PM
The Sox did what some thought might be the impossible, by winning it all last year. They were great and stormed through the post-season. But what they and the Bears of 1985 have shown me is that they truly represent the second city. The Sox, to me, clearly act like a group that is satisfied. That there is no drive to win another one. Heck, they've climbed to mountain, there's no way to get higher, right? I put much of the blame on Ozzie. As Terry Boers would say, he is resigned to the fate, this year, that the Sox won't repeat. He's complacent and stagnent in the dugout. I'm really starting to think the guy is a real chump. This stems from his announcement during the victory rally that, yes, he would return for the next season. No **** shurlock. One, your under contract. Two, isn't there much more work to do? Unlike the Yankees who's owner, manager and players, won't stand for anything less than a winner, the Sox are on there collective heels and won't rock forward. Let's all be thankful that they won it last year, because under Guillen I don't think we'll see it again.

ChicagoHoosier
09-18-2006, 07:38 PM
I don't think this should turn into a "blame Ozzie" thread, but let me ask a question relevant to the original subject... Do you blame Ditka for the lack of performance by the 86 Bears in the playoffs? At least they made the playoffs and had a stellar regular season.

JB98
09-18-2006, 07:40 PM
I knew this thread would come eventually. Apples and oranges, IMO.

TheOldRoman
09-18-2006, 07:41 PM
I think you go way overboard with the "Don Cooper doing commercials made Freddy Garcia lose 5MPH on his fastball" insinuation, but I agree with your point. I have been saying that for probably a month now.

This Sox team will win 90+ games, and extremely underachieve. The Sox had the pitching set up to go on a dynasty run, and a year later, we are scratching our heads. When people talk about the 85 Bears the first thing they say is "wow, that was probably the best team ever". The seond thing: how the hell did they not win more than one Superbowl?" The Sox have nearly pissed away this year, who knows what the next few years hold. You can't really judge this team's "failure" until a few years later. For instance, the Yankees were knocked out of the playoffs in 97 (after winning the WS in 96), but they came back to win the next three years.
What does it really matter, anyway? The press has hated the Sox for a long time, and they would be saying that the 05 team is the worst champion ever no matter what. Us not winning this year has nothing to do with last year. Nobody can take 2005 away from us.

veeter
09-18-2006, 07:41 PM
I don't think this should turn into a "blame Ozzie" thread, but let me ask a question relevant to the original subject... Do you blame Ditka for the lack of performance by the 86 Bears in the playoffs? At least they made the playoffs and had a stellar regular season.As all of us scratch our heads to try to figure out what the heck is wrong with out team, I feel a posters opinion is o.k. Therefore I don't care if you don't want a blame Ozzie thread, I feel he's the main reason.

zmz723
09-18-2006, 07:44 PM
It's hard to compare a 16 game season to a 162 game season, however there are similairities between the two teams

ChicagoHoosier
09-18-2006, 07:45 PM
As all of us scratch our heads to try to figure out what the heck is wrong with out team, I feel a posters opinion is o.k. Therefore I don't care if you don't want a blame Ozzie thread, I feel he's the main reason.

While I agree with your statement, is that the subject of this thread? There are plenty of other threads out there blaming Ozzie for our under achivement this season.

JB98
09-18-2006, 07:45 PM
I just don't think Ozzie's Chevy commercial or guys bull****ting on the radio has any effect on what goes on between the white lines.

TheOldRoman
09-18-2006, 07:46 PM
The Sox did what some thought might be the impossible, by winning it all last year. They were great and stormed through the post-season. But what they and the Bears of 1985 have shown me is that they truly represent the second city. The Sox, to me, clearly act like a group that is satisfied. That there is no drive to win another one. Heck, they've climbed to mountain, there's no way to get higher, right? I put much of the blame on Ozzie. As Terry Boers would say, he is resigned to the fate, this year, that the Sox won't repeat. He's complacent and stagnent in the dugout. I'm really starting to think the guy is a real chump. This stems from his announcement during the victory rally that, yes, he would return for the next season. No **** shurlock. One, your under contract. Two, isn't there much more work to do? Unlike the Yankees who's owner, manager and players, won't stand for anything less than a winner, the Sox are on there collective heels and won't rock forward. Let's all be thankful that they won it last year, because under Guillen I don't think we'll see it again.
One, Ozzie had said earlier that he would retire if the team won the World Series. He was apparently mulling retirement, but decided to come back. Two, contracts mean nothing. He can retire/quit at any time.

HotelWhiteSox
09-18-2006, 07:49 PM
It's hard to compare a 16 game season to a 162 game season, however there are similairities between the two teams

It's just hard to repeat, especially when you're in the toughest division (and league) in baseball. As inconsistent as the Sox have been this year, look at their record. Going into Oakland, they would have had the lead in the West. They would have demoralized any division in the NL. Detroit and Minnesota have just taken care of business against crappy teams, that simple

BA: The Hitman
09-18-2006, 07:50 PM
Hey gang,

As I woke up from my I thought was a nightmare to only see that yes, the Sox did just drop 3 to Oakland, putting them on the edge of elimination, I could not help but compare the defending champs, to another defending Chicago team. Back in 1986, the odds makers were saying the Bears would repeat as Superbowl champions. At the beginning of this year, the oddsmakers were saying that the White Sox would repeat.

Now, I could be wrong, but I'm seeing a whole heck of a lot of similarities to the current imploded Sox team to the 1986 Bears team. Too many commerical endorsements. Too many TV specials. Too many media appearances. In 1986, the Bears were everywhere. The Mike Ditka Show. Mongo on Sunday Night Sports on Channel 5. The commericals. Good God did we love those commericals. And then, while the Bears made the playoffs, they were done, and soon after; that team went nowhere near the playoffs. Twenty years later, the same can be said about the Sox.

What the hell is with the Score complaining about the Sox being distracted and not focused, when you have the following:

AJ on Monday mornings
Don Cooper on Tuesday Mornings
Brandon McCarthy on Friday afternoons
Various random players on at various times

Now, I understand the concept of player appearances and doing endorsements, but dammit, all this stuff not focusing on the game is a factor in this teams approach to the game. Don Cooper has endorsed a number of products, while our pitching staff is not doing a damn thing other than throwing grapefruits for the opposing team to knock out of the park. Its pretty pathetic that Coop seems to have time to endorse the "Little guys" and appear on air with the HOFHDV (Hall Of Fame Hot Dog Vendor) yet he can't get the "Future of White Sox" Pitching Brandon "I can't keep the ball in the park" McCarthy on track. Maybe because McCarthy is busy laughing it up on the radio about his teddy bear, even though he cost us two games during the previous week. I get really pissed with the "He should be in the rotation" when he can't even get two batters out in a row recently.

What the hell is up with having Ozzie on for a 5 segment special on his life? Come on, that one is a bit much. Even if it was done during the off-season, having your mug on TV for things not directly related to the days game is a distraction.

I'm glad that Hawk let loose on the team this past weekend. This has been annoying to see a team that could easily build a dynasty squander and waste the opportunity to win another championship. I will always be thankful that 2005 brought Sox fans a championship. I would hate to always think of the 2006 team as a championship wasted.

Front



That's really intelligent to blame the Sox doing radio appearances for the team undreachieve this year. I'm sure the 20 mins that Coop, AJ, and Mac were on The Score had tons of effect on their play on the field. That is one of the most unintelligent statements I have ever read in my life. They are underachieving this year because they have never been clicking on all cylinders at one point this season. It has nothing to do with any endorsements or appearances that these players have made.


You think Cooper hasn't been working his *** off with the pitchers who have been struggling? Oh no, according to you, he's busier with doing endorsemnts. My ***. You've got some serious issues if these are your reasons for the troubles of the Sox this year.

Johnny Mostil
09-18-2006, 08:13 PM
I don't think this should turn into a "blame Ozzie" thread, but let me ask a question relevant to the original subject... Do you blame Ditka for the lack of performance by the 86 Bears in the playoffs? At least they made the playoffs and had a stellar regular season.

There were 14 teams in the NFC in 1986, of which six advanced to the playoffs. If six of the 14 teams teams in the AL were able to advance to the postseason, I doubt this thread would have been started, or at least not yet. Yeah, the Bears won their division handily, but the other teams in the division that year weren't very good (the Twins and Tigers are).

Beyond that, I don't much follow football, so I probably should just shut up, but I've always been struck how the Ditka Bears, which I considered more talented than the Parcells Giants, won only one Super Bowl, while the Parcells Giants won two. I suppose it's too early to compare the Guillén Sox with another baseball team of this decade.

One last point--the Bears really did build up to the '85 season, being a losing club in '81 and '82, reaching .500 in '83, the conference championship game in '84, and winning the Super Bowl in '85. The Sox have followed a different track, and one I don't think we can judge for a few years yet.

batmanZoSo
09-18-2006, 08:54 PM
The Bears were much more nationally well-known and hyped than this team, it's no comparison. And weren't health issues the post-85 Bears downfall, e.g. McMahon couldn't stay healhy?

slavko
09-18-2006, 09:25 PM
The Bears were much more nationally well-known and hyped than this team, it's no comparison. And weren't health issues the post-85 Bears downfall, e.g. McMahon couldn't stay healhy?

Of course, you're right on it. Plus, add some blame to Ditka and management for not having an adequate backup plan for McMahon. Plus again, the '85 guys were relatively more talented than the '05 Sox, knew it and were full of themselves. Last year's winners were a bunch of baseball lifers who were relatively grateful and humble for what had happened to them.

Finally, this year's bullpen blew up (as many of us have pointed out in other threads). That's the whole story of this year.

Frontman
09-19-2006, 12:05 AM
I'm well aware that comparisons between seasons/sports is a hard thing to do, especially when one is only 16 games, the other is 162. But the behavior and attitude is there. This team of "lifers" hasn't put any life into this second half. Other threads have covered the "off season plans" issue, but that certainly is a symptom of the problem.

My point is that this team is distracted by something. It certainly isn't a focus on the baseball being played. Hell, wasn't Ozzie just berating the guys for having college football on the TV in the clubhouse Saturday? You know, the second of the three games we dropped to Oakland? And after a long flight from the coast, AJ has to be up at 8 am to talk to Mike North, the same day he's set to catch against Detroit in one of the biggest chances we have to get back into contention. The man should of been getting a bit more sleep, instead of having North, once again, tell us all how he would run the team, ie "Start your starters." Thanks Mike, I'm sure AJ will tell off his boss that the guy who is a hotdog vendor suggested that. Not a problem.

Say what you will, but this team let down all of us from last year and the decades prior. So these guys, the lifers, are thankful for winning a single WS? That's great, then all of them if they are content with just one championship should then go elsewhere or get the hell out of the game entirely. The point of playing professional sports is not just to make it to a championship once, but as many times as you can. It certainly isn't about winning once then giving excuses as to why it hasn't happened.

The crap has been blamed on Brian Anderson, for example. By the same people who said "We don't need him to hit, we need him to be great defensively." Then when the bottom drops out, they blame him for his hitting. All the while getting featured on TV, doing car commercials, radio spots, being more of a "Score guy" than being a Sox player/coach. Or my favorite, having the fans get all over Joey Cora for sending runners, with the same amount of risk taking as he did last year.

The blame has been put on Anderson, Widger, Politte. God forbid they blame McCarthy for his meatballs he's thrown. Oh no, he's our future. If he is, the future is pretty damn bleak, gang.

At least Ozzie, while not naming him outright, has taken Pods to task or else I would agree with veeter. Ozzie has come out and said, "Blame me," which is noble, but he isn't the one taking the field. He isn't the one doing the Elvis kneel with his hands to his batting helmet every time he pops up. He's not the one walking back to the dugout with a smirk on his face and his bat in his hand instead of taking a few pitches. He isn't the one loosing track of outs or just running home from third, then turning back and trotting back to third.

Some have said this team has had no heart. If that means not having the fire and the focus with a number of our players to see it done, then yeah. And that goes from Ozzie down to the bullpen. To hear things like "I hope that didn't cost us," come out of relief pitchers when talking about A GAME WINNING RUN THEY GAVE UP definately speaks to this team being content.

As far as my 86 Bears comparison. Zozo, you are correct in that McMahon's health was an issue, not the only issue. Ditka was busy doing tv and radio spots, then went after players for doing the same thing. Hell, he had his own TV show on CBS. Players were pissed at each other for undercutting each other for tv commericals. And I blame Ditka for allowing that to not only occupy his players attentions, but his as well, ChicagoHoosier. And someone leaked the "off season" story, much like the Bears of 86 broke bad on each other, giving out info that should of remained in the lockerroom. A good coach/manager keeps their team from being distracted by it. This team up until the week before the AS game was in the hunt. And while statistically they were still in it (and technically still are) they sure as hell are not hunting.

BA, you can be as obnoxious as you'd like, I'm not taking that bait, :dtroll: . If you want to talk intelligently to each other, I'm more than willing. But to say I have issues because I raised a point that comparisons could be made doesn't mean it's yours or anyone else's ***. Say what you will, but this team ISN'T focused at the task at hand.

I certainly have every right to be pissed that Brandon McCarthy finds time during his crappy pitching to yuk it up on the radio on Fridays while his coach is yukking up on Tuesdays. I don't have issues raising the point that "Hmm, Chicago team wins it all; Chicago team is busy doing everything besides, you know, playing and practicing and focusing; Chicago team pisses away a full year that they could of repeated. Man, that seems awfully familiar." It's called a subject for debate, BA. If you don't like it, then do as many others do and either don't read it or post to it. Thank you for being rude.

The fact of the matter is that we had a chance at a dynasty 20 years ago, and our team blew it, with distractions that have nothing to do with football.

The Sox are now on the eve of blowing another chance at a dynasty 20 years later.

And just hope that this team will then address the one's who aren't hungry anymore and show them the door. I'm sure there are others who want to win, who wouldn't mind doing it in a Sox uniform.

Front

veeter
09-19-2006, 09:13 AM
One, Ozzie had said earlier that he would retire if the team won the World Series. He was apparently mulling retirement, but decided to come back. Two, contracts mean nothing. He can retire/quit at any time.
Retire to what? To hang out with the terrorist loving Hugo Chavez?

soxfanatlanta
09-19-2006, 09:25 AM
Retire to what? To hang out with the terrorist loving Hugo Chavez?

Nice.

jshanahanjr
09-19-2006, 03:12 PM
The Patriots did not make the playoffs after winning the Super Bowl in 2001, but went on to win back to back in 03/04. That's what I want to compare Our Sox to.

gobears1987
09-19-2006, 03:13 PM
The Patriots did not make the playoffs after winning the Super Bowl in 2001, but went on to win back to back in 03/04. That's what I want to compare Our Sox to.
Given our strength in AAA and the moves KW will make every Wednesday, I think this will prove to be accurate.

gobears1987
09-19-2006, 03:16 PM
I don't think this should turn into a "blame Ozzie" thread, but let me ask a question relevant to the original subject... Do you blame Ditka for the lack of performance by the 86 Bears in the playoffs? At least they made the playoffs and had a stellar regular season.I blame one person for 1986. That would be Charles Martin, the ****ing SOB who ended McMahon's career. This sounds sick, but thank G-d that mother ****er is dead.

gobears1987
09-19-2006, 03:17 PM
As all of us scratch our heads to try to figure out what the heck is wrong with out team, I feel a posters opinion is o.k. Therefore I don't care if you don't want a blame Ozzie thread, I feel he's the main reason.Ozzie is the reason that Cotts and Politte blew up. He is the reason that Jose Contreras had issues after his great start. He is the reason Mark Buehrle struggled. He is the reason that Vazquez couldn't get out of the 6th inning. He is responsible for Freddy losing a few mph on the fastball.

:rolleyes:

Frontman
09-19-2006, 06:16 PM
The Patriots did not make the playoffs after winning the Super Bowl in 2001, but went on to win back to back in 03/04. That's what I want to compare Our Sox to.

You know, I didn't look that way when making a comparison. I do feel a lot better. :smile:

I hope that is the case, and if KW holds to his guns, the 07 team will be retooled and with fire to win again. Even if that means a change to the coaching staff (new bench coach anyone? Interesting he was only given a one year deal when the rest are on 3 year deals.)

GB1987, I didn't know Martin is dead. I would never speak ill of the dead, but that hit list garbage should of had him removed from the league that very afternoon. That was moronic.

Front

Scottzilla
09-20-2006, 11:02 AM
i think its much harder to repeat in football or baseball because of the size of the teams and how hard it is to keep a whole team together. I'm not saying that the sox arent winning because of Frank or Rowand being gone. but its really not the same team as last year. as opposed to the bulls changing one or two guys over each run

FielderJones
09-20-2006, 11:29 AM
Retire to what? (idiocy deleted)

How this didn't get ****housed I'll never know.