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infohawk
09-18-2006, 11:01 AM
The Sun-Times has an article (http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca18.html) with some choice comments from Hawk about the Sox. Pretty much things we have already heard him say in the booth. The article also contains this little nugget:
Months before the Sox were swept away by the Oakland Athletics this weekend, players had already begun musing about being ready for the season to end -- making their offseason plans and apparently sitting on their laurels.
I want to know who these players are and I don't want them on the team anymore. Of course, we probably won't find out directly, but if some players are gone after this year it might be an indicator. If this is true, it is completely unacceptable. It's always a tricky proposition when something is reported without attribution. We don't know how many players De Luca is talking about or the context of their statements. Still, I found the paragraph very troubling.

Now the witch hunt. Who are your likely candidates for lack of focus (versus just a down year)?

jenn2080
09-18-2006, 11:05 AM
The Sun-Times has an article (http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca18.html) with some choice comments from Hawk about the Sox. Pretty much things we have already heard him say in the booth. The article also contains this little nugget:Months before the Sox were swept away by the Oakland Athletics this weekend, players had already begun musing about being ready for the season to end -- making their offseason plans and apparently sitting on their laurels.
I want to know who these players are and I don't want them on the team anymore. Of course, we probably won't find out directly, but if some players are gone after this year it might be an indicator. If this is true, it is completely unacceptable. It's always a tricky proposition when something is reported without attribution. We don't know how many players De Luca is talking about or the context of their statements. Still, I found the paragraph very troubling.

Now the witch hunt. Who are your likely candidates for lack of focus (versus just a down year)?



if i had to point fingers and make accusations i would say freddy and uribe.

Chicken Dinner
09-18-2006, 11:10 AM
I don't see a problem making off season plans as long as there not for October. I plan my vacations ahead of time. Don't blow this out of proportion.

CHIsoxNation
09-18-2006, 11:14 AM
As bad as the bullpen has been lately, I really don't think you could point any fingers at them considering most of them are new anyway and didn't win last year.

Garcia definitely hasn't looked all that "hungry" this year. Unfortunately, you could probably say the same for a couple of the guys on the starting staff. It's hard to tell though if they are just worn physically or just don't care anymore.

Either way, from what I've seen, most of this team seems pretty satisfied with going home on October 2nd to watch the fall leaves change colors instead of defending their championship.

Palehose13
09-18-2006, 11:16 AM
if i had to point fingers and make accusations i would say freddy and uribe.

I would go with those two also.

infohawk
09-18-2006, 11:16 AM
I don't see a problem making off season plans as long as there not for October. I plan my vacations ahead of time. Don't blow this out of proportion.
That's why I would like some more context. That's the problem with reporting these days. So many of these guys never let facts get in the way of a good story. I would like to believe that De Luca included that paragraph because the players in question were clearly talking about wanting the season to end sooner because they were tired or bored. That is the implication within the paragraph. I tend to want to give that implication some credence because of the results on the field.

CaptainBallz
09-18-2006, 11:17 AM
The Sun-Times has an article (http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca18.html) with some choice comments from Hawk about the Sox. Pretty much things we have already heard him say in the booth. The article also contains this little nugget:Months before the Sox were swept away by the Oakland Athletics this weekend, players had already begun musing about being ready for the season to end -- making their offseason plans and apparently sitting on their laurels.I want to know who these players are and I don't want them on the team anymore. Of course, we probably won't find out directly, but if some players are gone after this year it might be an indicator. If this is true, it is completely unacceptable. It's always a tricky proposition when something is reported without attribution. We don't know how many players De Luca is talking about or the context of their statements. Still, I found the paragraph very troubling.

Now the witch hunt. Who are your likely candidates for lack of focus (versus just a down year)?


That's a very dangerous witchhunt to embark on since it is coming from second-hand statements. It was brought up to AJ this morning and he defended it by saying that everybody makes offseason plans usually beginning early November and his, personally, were made for the end of Oct. He said that he has plans for next years offseason already and basically wrote the question off.

Even with that said, one would have to be completely blind and ignorant to say that there hasn't been numerous times where the team was playing like they have better things to do with their Octobers. I could see how there could be some trouble in the clubhouse if some of the guys started with the diva crap. I don't plan on actually knowing all the ins and outs of this any time soon.

BainesHOF
09-18-2006, 11:20 AM
The Sun-Times has an article (http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca18.html) with some choice comments from Hawk about the Sox. Pretty much things we have already heard him say in the booth. The article also contains this little nugget:Months before the Sox were swept away by the Oakland Athletics this weekend, players had already begun musing about being ready for the season to end -- making their offseason plans and apparently sitting on their laurels.



I've suspected this because of the team's obviously lack of hunger over the last two, three months. It's looked to me like they're burned out.

infohawk
09-18-2006, 11:21 AM
if i had to point fingers and make accusations i would say freddy and uribe.
Those two popped into my head too. It's almost easier to create a list of those players who competed hard because their numbers and effort were obvious.

What do you guys think about Podsednik? He never really seemed "in it" quite like he did last year. I can understand and forgive his maybe losing a step because of the groin injuries, but his concentration didn't seem to be there. Bad jumps, unwillingness to try and steal sometimes in steal situations and a very, very difficult time getting bunts down.

CHISOXFAN13
09-18-2006, 11:23 AM
if i had to point fingers and make accusations i would say freddy and uribe.

Add Podesdink to this, and you have my list.

infohawk
09-18-2006, 11:23 AM
That's a very dangerous witchhunt to embark on since it is coming from second-hand statements.
I agree, and hope I was careful to qualify my concern a couple of times. Still, similar to what you said, it has been pretty evident that the concentration and intensity hasn't been there this year.

MadetoOrta
09-18-2006, 11:23 AM
All the more reason to bring in fresh blood/new faces. I thought Thome was hungry for a World Series ring? What's he done lately? Personally, I think Iguchi packed it in a while ago too.

soltrain21
09-18-2006, 11:24 AM
You can not really blame them for looking foward to the offseason no matter when their off season starts. They are human, and need a break from their job no matter how awesome the job really is.

Along with vacation comes the idea of spending time with their families. Most of these guys have young kids they barely get to see.


I am frustrated with them as much as the next person, but cut them some slack.

duke of dorwood
09-18-2006, 11:24 AM
We are now 1 step closer to the talentless bum Mike North being Jerry's hand picked broadcaster

Baby Fisk
09-18-2006, 11:25 AM
Overall the Sox underperformed as a TEAM over the course of the season. As in previous off-seasons, Ozzie and Kenny will see to it that the bad apples get tossed.

voodoochile
09-18-2006, 11:29 AM
Uribe gets a bit of a pass because of the personal stuff that was going on in his life this season. His wife's pregnancy and then him being a first time parent and all that entails probably distracted him quite a bit. It may not be lack of heart, but lack of concentration due to external forces and even sleep deprevation that are hurting him.

Jjav829
09-18-2006, 11:29 AM
That's why I would like some more context. That's the problem with reporting these days. So many of these guys never let facts get in the way of a good story. I would like to believe that De Luca included that paragraph because the players in question were clearly talking about wanting the season to end sooner because they were tired or bored. That is the implication within the paragraph. I tend to want to give that implication some credence because of the results on the field.

Agreed. Who knows if they even meant it. The dog days of summer hit and the team was playing poorly, so it's possible that whatever basis De Luca has for that statement was just players letting out frustration.

I'm not going to speculate on who was resting on their laurels, if anyone. If anyone was, we'll know in time. They'll stick out from the rest of the players. How...?



They'll be the ones no longer wearing a White Sox uniform.

MadetoOrta
09-18-2006, 11:29 AM
We are now 1 step closer to the talentless bum Mike North being Jerry's hand picked broadcaster

No doubt. Before Halloween there will be a press release:

Hawk: He gone!

itsnotrequired
09-18-2006, 11:30 AM
No doubt. Before Halloween there will be a press release:

Hawk: He gone!

:rolleyes:

Hawk isn't going anywhere.

CaptainBallz
09-18-2006, 11:31 AM
You can not really blame them for looking foward to the offseason no matter when their off season starts. They are human, and need a break from their job no matter how awesome the job really is.

Along with vacation comes the idea of spending time with their families. Most of these guys have young kids they barely get to see.


I am frustrated with them as much as the next person, but cut them some slack.


Uhhhh..No. If they get so homesick that it adversely affects their performance on the field, then they really need to find a new profession. That's the worst thing I've ever heard....

infohawk
09-18-2006, 11:33 AM
All the more reason to bring in fresh blood/new faces. I thought Thome was hungry for a World Series ring? What's he done lately?
He denies it, but I think Thome's wrists are still bothering him. The thing about Thome is that, even when slumping, he still manages to contribute by taking walks and otherwise reaching base. His biggest drop-off has been his power numbers. He's been sitting on 39 homers for what seems like ages now. I don't doubt his effort at all.

infohawk
09-18-2006, 11:36 AM
They'll be the ones no longer wearing a White Sox uniform.
This is exactly right.

jenn2080
09-18-2006, 11:39 AM
No doubt. Before Halloween there will be a press release:

Hawk: He gone!


:rolleyes: Lame!

TomBradley72
09-18-2006, 11:42 AM
There is something missing with this team regarding "intensity"...even simple things like their "body language"....last year...no one sitting on the bench..everyone hanging on the front rail..really in the game.

This year...even during rallies...everyone sitting....I know it's a little thing...but whether it's burn out, a lack of hunger or team chemistry...something is missing.

batmanZoSo
09-18-2006, 11:46 AM
There is something missing with this team regarding "intensity"...even simple things like their "body language"....last year...no one sitting on the bench..everyone hanging on the front rail..really in the game.

This year...even during rallies...everyone sitting....I know it's a little thing...but whether it's burn out, a lack of hunger or team chemistry...something is missing.

Chemistry, killer instinct...those things are overrated when you win and overrated when you lose. It comes down to performance. The pitching is mediocre! Slugging teams with mediocre pitching win 90 games, but that's about it.

southside rocks
09-18-2006, 11:46 AM
Uribe gets a bit of a pass because of the personal stuff that was going on in his life this season. His wife's pregnancy and then him being a first time parent and all that entails probably distracted him quite a bit. It may not be lack of heart, but lack of concentration due to external forces and even sleep deprevation that are hurting him.

Actually, Juan is a fourth-time parent. Which is not to take away from the stress of his wife's giving birth this summer; but there were three other little Juans already. :tongue:

Married Ana ... has three children: Juan Luis, Juanny and Janny ...

southside rocks
09-18-2006, 11:48 AM
Chemistry, killer instinct...those things are overrated when you win and overrated when you lose. It comes down to performance. The pitching is mediocre! Slugging teams with mediocre pitching win 90 games, but that's about it.

I agree that "chemistry" is not to blame, but I know what TomBradley's talking about. The players just don't seem as into it this year as they were last year!

I don't know if that's because they're playing less well, or if they're playing less well because they're not fired up.

And to the extent that attitude can influence performance, I suggest that it's not a non-factor here.

Ol' No. 2
09-18-2006, 12:13 PM
There is something missing with this team regarding "intensity"...even simple things like their "body language"....last year...no one sitting on the bench..everyone hanging on the front rail..really in the game.

This year...even during rallies...everyone sitting....I know it's a little thing...but whether it's burn out, a lack of hunger or team chemistry...something is missing.Don't you recall all the bleating last year about the "chick-scoping bench" and all the players being more interested in checking out the babes than what was going on in the game? They definately don't seem to have that edge this year, and maybe winning a World Series makes you less hungry.

But as to which players are the ones who are mailing it in, I doubt anyone will know until these guys are gone in the off-season. How many people had any idea Ozzie wanted CLee gone before it happened? These things almost NEVER leave the clubhouse.

Sox-o-matic
09-18-2006, 12:18 PM
There is certainly no lack of heart coming from the bench this year.

The bullpen has sucked, but I wouldn't call that a problem with heart though. McCarthy is not a reliever and so far doesn't look like he will make a very good starter either, Politte was garbage, Hermie has been out, Cotts seems lost on the mound, the Montero/Tracey/Logan thing failed miserably, Riske has been off and on, and this team REALLY misses Vizcaino bad. The Sox no longer have anyone to rely on before the 8th inning.

The rotation has sucked most of the year, but even when they were at their worst the Sox were still winning games by putting up 6 runs or more all the time. Now they are not.

If anything, I think the offense is pressing too much. Crede, who usually is Mr. Clutch, comes up with the bases loaded and one out TWICE yesterday and fails to get the sac fly.

If the Sox lose tonight, this is the lineup I want to see for the rest of the year:

Owens LF
Ozuna 2B
Fields 3B
Dye DH
Anderson CF
Gload 1B
Cintron SS
Stewart C
Sweeney RF

Hell, with that lineup we might actually win some games.

CaptainBallz
09-18-2006, 12:19 PM
But as to which players are the ones who are mailing it in, I doubt anyone will know until these guys are gone in the off-season. How many people had any idea Ozzie wanted CLee gone before it happened? These things almost NEVER leave the clubhouse.

It might be interesting to see who goes, especially if it's somebody noone would ever accuse of doggin it.

spiffie
09-18-2006, 12:22 PM
So that's why Rowand was traded...he had no heart!

Sox-o-matic
09-18-2006, 12:25 PM
It might be interesting to see who goes, especially if it's somebody noone would ever accuse of doggin it.

I just hope Ozzie doesn't start blaming guys who don't deserve it. For example, blaming Tadahito for lack of production from the top of the order when Pods isn't doing **** on base, or blaming Anderson for having a bad offensive stretch when other guys the Sox are paying millions to produce aren't producing now when it really matters.

For some reason, I see the wrong guy getting traded in the offseason and the fans having to listen to more of that back-and-forth high school girl's locker room crap between Ozzie/KW and whoever else, just like Big Frank, Maggs, Crazy Carl, Carlos Lee, etc.

Ol' No. 2
09-18-2006, 12:26 PM
It might be interesting to see who goes, especially if it's somebody noone would ever accuse of doggin it.I can almost guarantee that there will be surprises. No one expected CLee. You can't really tell by watching them as an outsider. For example, people carped for years about Garland not showing intensity on the mound, but that's just his outward demeanor. That's all you see from the outside, but it doesn't reflect what's really going on. There's a lot that coaches see that we don't, and that includes practices and clubhouse behavior. We only see a small fraction of what's really going on.

oeo
09-18-2006, 12:26 PM
Add Podesdink to this, and you have my list.

Any reasoning behind this?

I've only heard good things about Pods in the clubhouse. He may not be performing to our expectations (or to his), but I highly doubt he had the season wrapped up a month ago. He just doesn't seem like a guy that says, "Well, we're 5 games out of the division, we're done." I've always heard that Pods puts a lot of pressure on himself, all the time, so I really have no idea where you're pulling this from.

If Pods isn't here next year (which I don't think he will be), it will be because of performance.

NoShoesJoe
09-18-2006, 12:27 PM
So that's why Rowand was traded...he had no heart!

Lest we forget, they thought with the added strength offensively, that they could absorb Anderson, given his defensive expertise. Remember no one was looking for him to be more than he is now. When the team loses, it casts an unfair light on him. He's where he needs to be, and will only get better and better.

Hokiesox
09-18-2006, 12:30 PM
You can not really blame them for looking foward to the offseason no matter when their off season starts. They are human, and need a break from their job no matter how awesome the job really is.

Along with vacation comes the idea of spending time with their families. Most of these guys have young kids they barely get to see.


I am frustrated with them as much as the next person, but cut them some slack.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Lip Man 1
09-18-2006, 12:33 PM
I was stunned to read the story.

Considering as PHG accurately put it, that Hawk is Reinsdorf's mouthpiece it will be a VERY interesting off-season to say the least.

I don't know who was talking about off season plans and I don't care but it's a fact that team has shown no heart...gutless is another word for it. The only person that I hope DOES find out who these people are is Kenny. Then I hope he ships them out as fast as possible, I don't care if he gives them away.

Me thinks in the season ending meeting Ozzie is going to have some revealing things to tell Kenny.

Lip

Jerko
09-18-2006, 12:34 PM
Lest we forget, they thought with the added strength offensively, that they could absorb Anderson, given his defensive expertise. Remember no one was looking for him to be more than he is now. When the team loses, it casts an unfair light on him. He's where he needs to be, and will only get better and better.

Yep. All I heard all off-season was "you don't need hitting from the #9 hitter" or "whatever offense you get from Anderson is a bonus", and then we get Mack in center when the pre-season "fears" came to fruition. I think if he was left alone out there he would have been fine.

oeo
09-18-2006, 12:37 PM
He denies it, but I think Thome's wrists are still bothering him. The thing about Thome is that, even when slumping, he still manages to contribute by taking walks and otherwise reaching base. His biggest drop-off has been his power numbers. He's been sitting on 39 homers for what seems like ages now. I don't doubt his effort at all.

I don't doubt his effort...but pitch selection would help him. How many times does he swing at garbage pitches, and tries to take them out of the park?

Maybe I'm just spoiled, watching Frank, who does not swing a garbage...but, it's annoying watching Thome. In no way am I saying we shouldn't have gotten Thome but, just in comparison: Thome gets behind 0-2, it's usually a given that he will swing at some POS pitch, and strike out. Frank gets behind 0-2, and makes an AB out of it...takes the POS pitches, gets himself back into the count (and homers like yesterday against Contreras).

I think he's pressing too much. If he goes up there in a big situation, he goes down swinging. Not that anyone else in the middle of the lineup is doing anything either, though.

ewokpelts
09-18-2006, 12:39 PM
Lest we forget, they thought with the added strength offensively, that they could absorb Anderson, given his defensive expertise. Remember no one was looking for him to be more than he is now. When the team loses, it casts an unfair light on him. He's where he needs to be, and will only get better and better.
um..they DID absorb anderson....but drill rods think anderson not hitting .300 at teh nine spot was a horrible thing....thome's still hovering around .300, dye's of fthe charts, konerko's still around 300, and anderson has finally started producing regularly.....i think this line of thinking is stoopid.....

Sox-o-matic
09-18-2006, 12:39 PM
Any reasoning behind this?

I've only heard good things about Pods in the clubhouse. He may not be performing to our expectations (or to his), but I highly doubt he had the season wrapped up a month ago. I've always heard that Pods puts a lot of pressure on himself, all the time, so I really have no idea where you're pulling this from.

If Pods isn't here next year (which I don't think he will be), it will be because of performance.

There is a difference between a player putting pressure on himself at the plate and a player seemingly losing all confidence in his base stealing ability.

If you didn't watch Pods play this year and just looked at his numbers at the end of this year, you'd probably think he's had a good season on the bases since he'll probably finish with about 45 SB's or so. But when you watch him play, he just isn't the same threat he was last year that allowed the top of the lineup to get into a 'rythym,' as Hawk loves to say. He looks like he is often afraid to run because he'll get a short lead and dive back right away, and then when he runs he usually gets a poor jump and sometimes even slows up and/or does nothing to try and avoid the tag.

Last year Pods got his SB's off of pure ability, confidence, and bad throws. This year he is getting most of his SB's off bad throws. I really wouldn't be surprised to see him mived because of this.

NoNeckEra
09-18-2006, 12:39 PM
If Pods isn't here next year (which I don't think he will be), it will be because of performance.

And he won't be back, because he's not a playoff caliber type lead off man anymore.

As much as I had to say it, I'm ready to go to a smurfs approach like the Twins have. I'm sick of other team's hitters getting quality at bats and our guys wailing away.

It's all about quality at bats, and making quality pitches. And we haven't done either lately.

Lip Man 1
09-18-2006, 12:40 PM
OEO:

From what a beat writer told me he thinks Thome is really hurting right now with that wrist but is a gamer and won't say anything.

Lip

Dick Allen
09-18-2006, 12:40 PM
Hawk was on the Score Saturday morning, saying that this team is just not as hungry, which may be just human nature after winning it all. But as he said, it's a real shame, as this team is capable of putting together a 2-3 year World Series run, that it's such a waste.

kittle42
09-18-2006, 12:42 PM
Pierzynski said on North's show this morning, when asked about the offseason planning ahead, that players do that all the time, that no one he knew had planned anything for October, and that the columnist in question was just grasping at straws.

wdelaney72
09-18-2006, 12:44 PM
These things almost NEVER leave the clubhouse.

I'll throw the name Damaso Marte in is an example from 2005. His problems made it quite easily to the media.

oeo
09-18-2006, 12:47 PM
OEO:

From what a beat writer told me he thinks Thome is really hurting right now with that wrist but is a gamer and won't say anything.

Lip

Alright, fair enough.

From the team's standpoint, though. Would it not have been better to just speak up, take some time off? Gload can fill in at 1st quite nicely, and I really liked having Gload in the 2nd spot (maybe even leadoff). The team can win without Thome...I think he's hurting it more than he's helping it. Of course, now it's too late to do anything with only 2 weeks left, but he should have taken time off, and we might have had him back by now, with his wrists feeling better; as well as better shape in the standings.

It would be nice if Konerko/Crede would pick up some slack, though.

MrX
09-18-2006, 12:48 PM
So that's why Rowand was traded...he had no heart!
I wonder how much hate mail John Kass got this morning from the Rowand fan club when he said on Sportspage last night that with Rowand and Pods, last years outfield was the worst he's ever seen at getting jumps on fly balls.

Sox-o-matic
09-18-2006, 12:53 PM
I wonder how much hate mail John Kass got this morning from the Rowand fan club when he said on Sportspage last night that with Rowand and Pods, last years outfield was the worst he's ever seen at getting jumps on fly balls.

Apparently he never watched the 2nd half 2003 Sox. Carlos Lee in LF, Carl Everett in CF... yuck.

Lip Man 1
09-18-2006, 12:53 PM
Kittle:

Or perhaps DeLuca's story and Hawk's comments hit a little to close to home for AJ and company and THEY are the ones grasping at straws.

Lip

Sox-o-matic
09-18-2006, 12:57 PM
Kittle:

Or perhaps DeLuca's story and Hawk's comments hit a little to close to home for AJ and company and THEY are the ones grasping at straws.

Lip

Or perhaps AJ and company missed the point entirely. I'm sure none of the them planned for trips in October, but looking forward to a vacation in November more than the next series after getting swept is a big problem.

Paulwny
09-18-2006, 12:59 PM
I was stunned to read the story.

Considering as PHG accurately put it, that Hawk is Reinsdorf's mouthpiece it will be a VERY interesting off-season to say the least.
Lip


A way for JR to possibly defect any criticism away from Oz and KW, putting it solely on the players.

Ol' No. 2
09-18-2006, 01:02 PM
I'll throw the name Damaso Marte in is an example from 2005. His problems made it quite easily to the media.It's the exception that proves the rule. With Marte, his problems were so visible it would be impossible NOT to make it outside the clubhouse. But 99% of these issues are not seen by outsiders.

How does a player (especially young players) take instruction from coaches? How hard does he work away from the game? How much time does he spend going over film on opposing hitters/pitchers and does he make use of that information? I seriously doubt anyone here has the slightest clue to the answers to those questions. But those kind of things are what makes the difference between winning and losing and neglecting them gets you a one-way ticket out.

DaleJRFan
09-18-2006, 01:09 PM
Kittle:

Or perhaps DeLuca's story and Hawk's comments hit a little to close to home for AJ and company and THEY are the ones grasping at straws.

Lip

right on Lip. DeLuca is a very good writer and I seriously doubt he would fabricate or sensationalize a story. He is probably reporting FACTS and the players don't like being called out.

NoShoesJoe
09-18-2006, 01:24 PM
All of the arguments regarding this team really don't matter, because, there is no one on this team, with the exceptions of...

PK
JD
JC
JG

and maybe

BJ, MT and TI

...that aren't completely expendable. That includes MB.

I like this team as much as anyone, but I like winning better. Even though they're more than capable, a change of scenary isn't the end of the world either.

CLR01
09-18-2006, 01:27 PM
So that's why Rowand was traded...he had no heart!


No talent

infohawk
09-18-2006, 01:48 PM
OEO:

From what a beat writer told me he thinks Thome is really hurting right now with that wrist but is a gamer and won't say anything.

Lip
Thome is a gamer. He was given the perfect opportunity to use the sore wrists (which I believe to be the case) as an excuse and didn't. Thome is the ideal teamate, player and human being. I'm glad he's here and I'm sure he will have a monster 2007.

BeviBall!
09-18-2006, 01:51 PM
Jane Fonda, Daniel Shore, Jack Anderson... hey! This is Richard Nixon's list.

Hitmen77
09-18-2006, 01:52 PM
No doubt. Before Halloween there will be a press release:

Hawk: He gone!

No way. Hawk wouldn't say these things if JR didn't agree. If Hawk is disgusted by this team of underachievers then JR is disgusted by this team of underachievers.

100 Year Itch
09-18-2006, 01:54 PM
Thome is a gamer. He was given the perfect opportunity to use the sore wrists (which I believe to be the case) as an excuse and didn't. Thome is the ideal teamate, player and human being. I'm glad he's here and I'm sure he will have a monster 2007.

However if his sore wrists are negatively impacting his performance, and therefore the overall chances for the team's success, wouldn't a "ideal teammate" ask to be substituted? Sacrificing individual statistics for the overall good of the team?

If he is playing hurt and his ailment is the reason for his declining productivity, he shouldn't make excuses, he should request to be excused.

BNLSox
09-18-2006, 01:55 PM
Overall the Sox underperformed as a TEAM over the course of the season. As in previous off-seasons, Ozzie and Kenny will see to it that the bad apples get tossed.

What if its Ozzie that is making some of the apples rotten?

daveeym
09-18-2006, 01:57 PM
Any reasoning behind this?

I've only heard good things about Pods in the clubhouse. He may not be performing to our expectations (or to his), but I highly doubt he had the season wrapped up a month ago. He just doesn't seem like a guy that says, "Well, we're 5 games out of the division, we're done." I've always heard that Pods puts a lot of pressure on himself, all the time, so I really have no idea where you're pulling this from.

If Pods isn't here next year (which I don't think he will be), it will be because of performance.
Yeah I don't see pods being a problem. A basketcase? Sure but I think his heart is in it. What I don't understand is the heat him and BA are getting from Ozzie. Being benched for not performing is one thing and players can respect that. Getting the run around from your manager in the papers and being yo-yo'd in and out of the lineup for guys that are worse makes it very frustrating on everyone.

Uribe and Freddy have totally mailed it in. Uribe in particular never has seemed too coachable and gives off a major sense of entitlement. I think Ozzie caught lightning in a bottle with him last year and Uribe bought into everything Ozzie said while this year it seems like he's playing for himself.

Baby Fisk
09-18-2006, 01:58 PM
However if his sore wrists are negatively impacting his performance, and therefore the overall chances for the team's success, wouldn't a "ideal teammate" ask to be substituted? Sacrificing individual statistics for the overall good of the team?

If he is playing hurt and his ailment is the reason for his declining productivity, he shouldn't make excuses, he should request to be excused.
It may be apples and oranges, but remember when Silva took himself off the mound during a Twins game? He was nearly crucified for being a selfish non-team-player.

Thome's injuries would have to be comparable to those of the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail for him to even CONSIDER taking himself out. Even then, Thome would prolly want to fight on.

Baby Fisk
09-18-2006, 01:59 PM
What if its Ozzie that is making some of the apples rotten?
I don't think Ozzie is the problem.

Ol' No. 2
09-18-2006, 02:00 PM
However if his sore wrists are negatively impacting his performance, and therefore the overall chances for the team's success, wouldn't a "ideal teammate" ask to be substituted? Sacrificing individual statistics for the overall good of the team?

If he is playing hurt and his ailment is the reason for his declining productivity, he shouldn't make excuses, he should request to be excused.Players generally don't make those decisions. You keep the manager up-to-date on your status and he makes the decision on whether he'd rather have an 80% Jim Thome or a 100% Ross Gload.

Ol' No. 2
09-18-2006, 02:01 PM
I don't think Ozzie is the problem.I don't get what happened. He was such a good manager last year. How did he get so bad in one off-season?

SOXandILLINI
09-18-2006, 02:09 PM
What if its Ozzie that is making some of the apples rotten?
i think that is a distinct possibilty.. or at least he doesn't help the situation. players see what a self absorbed man he is, it would burn me to play for him.

SOXandILLINI
09-18-2006, 02:10 PM
I don't get what happened. He was such a good manager last year. How did he get so bad in one off-season?
your assumption is that he was a good manager.. i have always begged to differ.. sorry.

batmanZoSo
09-18-2006, 02:14 PM
Jane Fonda, Daniel Shore, Jack Anderson... hey! This is Richard Nixon's list.

Gimme that! Barneyyy...Gumblllle.

100 Year Itch
09-18-2006, 02:15 PM
Players generally don't make those decisions. You keep the manager up-to-date on your status and he makes the decision on whether he'd rather have an 80% Jim Thome or a 100% Ross Gload.

Right. So is this a CYA managing policy by Guillen then?

If the Sox fail with Thome in the lineup, Guillen can say he fielded his best team and things just didn't work out. If they were to fail with Gload in, then critics begin asking why Guillen refused to field his best line-up.

Ol' No. 2
09-18-2006, 02:17 PM
Right. So is this a CYA managing policy by Guillen then?

If the Sox fail with Thome in the lineup, Guillen can say he fielded his best team and things just didn't work out. If they were to fail with Gload in, then critics begin asking why Guillen refused to field his best line-up.Sounds to me like you're trying your best to manufacture an excuse to be critical. Ozzie made his decision on what's best for the team. You might not agree with it, but that doesn't make it wrong and it doesn't make it CYA.

100 Year Itch
09-18-2006, 02:20 PM
i think that is a distinct possibilty.. or at least he doesn't help the situation. players see what a self absorbed man he is, it would burn me to play for him.

It's fascinating how generally-accepted perceptions can quickly shift based on a team's performance.

When Guillen hogged the spotlight last year he was hailed as a genius for deflecting attention, and therefore pressure, from the team.

This year, with the team struggling and the odds of making the playoff going up in smoke, he is criticized as self-absorbed.

SOXandILLINI
09-18-2006, 02:23 PM
It's fascinating how generally-accepted perceptions can quickly shift based on a team's performance.

When Guillen hogged the spotlight last year he was hailed as a genius for deflecting attention, and therefore pressure, from the team.

This year, with the team struggling and the odds of making the playoff going up in smoke, he is criticized as self-absorbed.
not by me my friend, my stance on ozzie has been clear from day one... find someone else to quote and you may be right.. but not me.. my feelings about ozzie have NEVER changed.

100 Year Itch
09-18-2006, 02:24 PM
Sounds to me like you're trying your best to manufacture an excuse to be critical. Ozzie made his decision on what's best for the team. You might not agree with it, but that doesn't make it wrong and it doesn't make it CYA.

Nah, I'm just wondering "out loud".

How many managerial decisions, league wide, are based on convention wisdom and / or the "safe move" if for no other reason than maintaining job security?

Like any other aspect of life, going against the conventional wisdom increases one's exposure to criticism.

SOXandILLINI
09-18-2006, 02:26 PM
just so you understand... the title of this thread really says it all... hawk was the biggest excuse maker for this team, and now even he rips them, and the other day the biggest ozzie arse kisser of all time even said what a joke it was that mackowiak was continually run out to cf... if hawk would say this stuff, something is really amiss here.

whitesoxfan
09-18-2006, 02:28 PM
Good for Hawk. As much as some people don't like it, Hawk represents the fans opinion and it's nice to see him chewing out the players. This team is way too talented to not make the playoffs; he has stated that over and over again. He's right about that too. This team is much more talented than last year's (at least on offense) and to not even make the playoffs would be a major disappointment.

AJ is a pretty good friend with Hawk, if I recall. Who knows, maybe this will be the incident that lights a fire under our team.

Bob G
09-18-2006, 02:36 PM
If Thome is really hurting that much and assuming Konerko's back is OK I wouldn't mind seeing Gload in the line up with Paulie as DH.

Also Cintron at either SS or 2B would be OK with me - it seems like he contributes almost everytime he plays.

I had a bad feeling about the chemistry of this team ever since Javy didn't protect AJ when he got hit and Ozzie pulls Tracey out of the game for not hitting the guy. I think this was the beginning of the end and the Sox never got a roll since.

Ol' No. 2
09-18-2006, 02:38 PM
Nah, I'm just wondering "out loud".

How many managerial decisions, league wide, are based on convention wisdom and / or the "safe move" if for no other reason than maintaining job security?

Like any other aspect of life, going against the conventional wisdom increases one's exposure to criticism.The entire "Ozzieball" approach last year was decidedly against conventional wisdom. Both he and Kenny were excoriated for even thinking it could work. So I wouldn't say Ozzie is one to go he "safe" route.

Ozzie does like to play the matchups, but typically the lefty-righty differential is around 30-50 pts in batting average. So if we turn that around, if you're going to send someone up to pinch hit, wouldn't you choose the guy with a 30 pt better batting average? To read some of the stuff written here you'd think he was the only guy to do this.

100 Year Itch
09-18-2006, 02:42 PM
The oddity is that Hawk didn't really say -- let alone "rip" -- anything.

His criticism was focused on intangibles, immeasurables.

How does one go about measuring "intensity" and "killer instinct"? Aren't they just fancy words to describe executing, or failure to execute, at a level that brings victory?

Hawk was very ambiguous, even guarded, in his comments. Compare that to Steve Stone's very specific criticisms about the Cubs and Baker in 2004. He actually grilled Baker in a post game interview with the manager; he antagonistically questioned Baker's use of the bullpen.

Ol' No. 2
09-18-2006, 02:45 PM
The oddity is that Hawk didn't really say -- let alone "rip" -- anything.

His criticism was focused on intangibles, immeasurables.

How does one go about measuring "intensity" and "killer instinct"? Aren't they just fancy words to describe executing, or failure to execute, at a level that brings victory?

Hawk was very ambiguous, even guarded, in his comments. Compare that to Steve Stone's very specific criticisms about the Cubs and Baker in 2004. He actually grilled Baker in a post game interview with the manager; he antagonistically questioned Baker's use of the bullpen.Remember, though, that Hawk is the ultimate homer. By his standards, those statements are scathing criticisms. He's seeing what we're all seeing. They're all waiting for something to happen. Last year they made things happen.

100 Year Itch
09-18-2006, 02:54 PM
The entire "Ozzieball" approach last year was decidedly against conventional wisdom. Both he and Kenny were excoriated for even thinking it could work. So I wouldn't say Ozzie is one to go he "safe" route.

Ozzie does like to play the matchups, but typically the lefty-righty differential is around 30-50 pts in batting average. So if we turn that around, if you're going to send someone up to pinch hit, wouldn't you choose the guy with a 30 pt better batting average? To read some of the stuff written here you'd think he was the only guy to do this.


In 2005 expectations were virtually non-existent, opening the door for less conventional approaches. The organization and team took risks, went against conventional wisdom, etc. It was the "what do we have to lose" philosophy, and it worked.

In 2006 expectations were never higher, meaning the potential "blowback", in the form of media and fan criticism, of not "playing by the book" increased commensurately.

Like I said, you can't criticize Guillen for his moves this year, they were generally by the book. However, mixing it up a little -- like starting McCarthy, benching Uribe and Pods, sitting a injured Thome, etc. -- might have provided a spark. We'll never know and to be sure it is all theoretical and speculative to begin with.

SOXandILLINI
09-18-2006, 02:58 PM
The oddity is that Hawk didn't really say -- let alone "rip" -- anything.

His criticism was focused on intangibles, immeasurables.

How does one go about measuring "intensity" and "killer instinct"? Aren't they just fancy words to describe executing, or failure to execute, at a level that brings victory?

Hawk was very ambiguous, even guarded, in his comments. Compare that to Steve Stone's very specific criticisms about the Cubs and Baker in 2004. He actually grilled Baker in a post game interview with the manager; he antagonistically questioned Baker's use of the bullpen.
are you telling me that calling running out mackowiak to center, ridiculous, and intangible?

SOXandILLINI
09-18-2006, 02:59 PM
Remember, though, that Hawk is the ultimate homer. By his standards, those statements are scathing criticisms. He's seeing what we're all seeing. They're all waiting for something to happen. Last year they made things happen.
this statement is exactly correct, you almost would have to put a gun to hawks head to say anything negative about ozzie or this team.

100 Year Itch
09-18-2006, 03:09 PM
are you telling me that calling running out mackowiak to center, ridiculous, and intangible?


Did he say that? I was commenting on what Hawk is quoted as saying in the article linked by the original poster.

Generally, though, Hawk does his criticizing through the application of deafening silence.

As an aside, I laughed my ass off at Hawk's comment after Milton Bradley blooped that run-scoring single into short left field: "spend some of that meal money Bradley".

SOXandILLINI
09-18-2006, 03:11 PM
yeah, on the radio saturday morning i think it was, he said that mack in center has been way overdone.

goon
09-18-2006, 03:16 PM
The oddity is that Hawk didn't really say -- let alone "rip" -- anything.

His criticism was focused on intangibles, immeasurables.

How does one go about measuring "intensity" and "killer instinct"? Aren't they just fancy words to describe executing, or failure to execute, at a level that brings victory?



just because those things aren't "measurable" or you can't necessarily go to a stat book and point them out doesn't mean they don't matter. there is more to baseball and all sports then just statistics.

there are lot of reasons this team is where they are right now.

QCIASOXFAN
09-18-2006, 03:17 PM
I knew it would only be a matter of time before Hawk said something and I'm glad he did. I think Hawk finally convinced himself that this team is not going to go on any sort of run and are very inconsistent. Hawk has been talking about that and making excuses since the series at Yankee stadium. As for who do I think is "packing it in" I really couldn't say at this point. We will find out in a couple weeks though.

100 Year Itch
09-18-2006, 03:30 PM
just because those things aren't "measurable" or you can't necessarily go to a stat book and point them out doesn't mean they don't matter. there is more to baseball and all sports then just statistics.

there are lot of reasons this team is where they are right now.

Believe you me, I recognize the importance of intangibles. What I'm saying is "ripping", IMO, would include specifics such as "Uribe's complete lack of plate discipline has really hurt the club this year" or "McCarthy, Cotts, and most of the bullpen, have really let us down".

With that said, I suppose Hawk questioning the team's "fight" could be perceived as a piercing. Questioning a guy's "heart" is often more damaging than questioning their execution and ability. It's sort of like saying "you have all the tools to do a exemplary job, but in the end you're just a loser."

CaptainBallz
09-18-2006, 03:40 PM
With that said, I suppose Hawk questioning the team's "fight" could be perceived as a piercing. Questioning a guy's "heart" is often more damaging than questioning their execution and ability. It's sort of like saying "you have all the tools to do a exemplary job, but in the end you're just a loser."

Exactly. It's basically Hawk saying that these guys don't care. Coming from him, the man that wears the Sox love on his sleeve, that's bad.

Hawk sounded so frustrated this weekend, you know he means it.

southside rocks
09-18-2006, 03:44 PM
It's not just Hawk. Did anyone hear Bill Melton in the post-game the other day? He said that the blame is all on the players.

It's not Ozzie's fault and it's not Kenny's fault, Melton said. It's the fault of the players and they have to take it. Kenny sat down with them in July and asked them what they needed to get it done, and they said 'nothing, we can win with what we have.' They said they could do the job, and they haven't done the job, and that's on them, Melton said.

I remember Bill Melton from his playing days, and he was never a firebrand, so to hear him speak this plainly makes me think that he, like Hawk, like so many of us, finds this team frustrating and beyond excuses.

I wonder how the players feel, being ripped by former players -- good players -- like Harrelson and Melton. I hope they feel ashamed. They should.

DickAllen72
09-18-2006, 03:51 PM
There is something missing with this team regarding "intensity"...even simple things like their "body language"....last year...no one sitting on the bench..everyone hanging on the front rail..really in the game.

This year...even during rallies...everyone sitting....I know it's a little thing...but whether it's burn out, a lack of hunger or team chemistry...something is missing.

Carl was always intense in the game and on the bench, Aaron was always intense, and even Willie was a "cheerleader" type on the bench.

Not debating the trades or decisions here, but the fact is when you lose guys like that, especially Carl and Aaron, the one thing you definitely do lose is fire/intensity.

DickAllen72
09-18-2006, 03:57 PM
It's not Ozzie's fault and it's not Kenny's fault, Melton said. It's the fault of the players and they have to take it.
One thing that definitely is Ozzie's fault is his not putting a premium on outfield defense. The lack of good outfield defense this year cost the Sox games directly and indirectly by putting more stress on the pitchers and the offense.

Ozzie is the one who kept putting Mack in CF when even Mack says he doesn't understand it. Ozzie also insisted on putting Ozuna in LF instead of telling KW to get him a real outfielder.

As for the lack of "hunger" or intensity, it's hard to tell exactly where the blame falls--there's probably enough to go around. But one of Ozzie's strengths was supposed to be his ability to motivate the players.

kitekrazy
09-18-2006, 04:00 PM
I don't see a problem making off season plans as long as there not for October. I plan my vacations ahead of time. Don't blow this out of proportion.

Agreed. Just because the team is playing dead that doesn't mean they are to stop smiling, laughing, ect.

DickAllen72
09-18-2006, 04:01 PM
this statement is exactly correct, you almost would have to put a gun to hawks head to say anything negative about ozzie or this team.

It was interesting yesterday after Frank's HR when Hawk commented, "You had the one guy commenting in the papers that Frank's not going to beat us....." He was obviously upset with Ozzie but would never call him out by name.

kitekrazy
09-18-2006, 04:04 PM
:rolleyes:

Hawk isn't going anywhere.

Definitely not. If anyone watched the game yesterday there was no need to read that article. We all heard what he said. Hawk didn't really rip the team but just stated the obvious.

Imagine of Jimmy Peirsal was doing the games.

kitekrazy
09-18-2006, 04:14 PM
OEO:

From what a beat writer told me he thinks Thome is really hurting right now with that wrist but is a gamer and won't say anything.

Lip

That's pretty much the whole team. They don't make excuses because of injuries.

kitekrazy
09-18-2006, 04:18 PM
I don't get what happened. He was such a good manager last year. How did he get so bad in one off-season?

When everything goes right you are a great manager. When it doesn't then you are a lousy manager. Ozzie will tell you it's all about the players and managers have not so much to do with it.

Frontman
09-18-2006, 04:21 PM
What if its Ozzie that is making some of the apples rotten?


Yeah, its obviously Ozzie who has no heart. He's more interested in watching college baseball on Saturday......

southside rocks
09-18-2006, 04:31 PM
One thing that definitely is Ozzie's fault is his not putting a premium on outfield defense. The lack of good outfield defense this year cost the Sox games directly and indirectly by putting more stress on the pitchers and the offense.

Ozzie is the one who kept putting Mack in CF when even Mack says he doesn't understand it. Ozzie also insisted on putting Ozuna in LF instead of telling KW to get him a real outfielder.

As for the lack of "hunger" or intensity, it's hard to tell exactly where the blame falls--there's probably enough to go around. But one of Ozzie's strengths was supposed to be his ability to motivate the players.

Well, I disagree with you 1000%, but this isn't the thread to discuss that, and besides, neither of us will convince the other. :tongue:

My point was that along with Hawk, Bill Melton is laying the blame for non-performance on the players. I hope the players feel some of the sting of that, because IMO they've earned it.

kitekrazy
09-18-2006, 04:33 PM
I wonder how the players feel, being ripped by former players -- good players -- like Harrelson and Melton. I hope they feel ashamed. They should.

I think not being in the post season will wake this team up for 2007.

Ol' No. 2
09-18-2006, 04:40 PM
Well, I disagree with you 1000%, but this isn't the thread to discuss that, and besides, neither of us will convince the other. :tongue:

My point was that along with Hawk, Bill Melton is laying the blame for non-performance on the players. I hope the players feel some of the sting of that, because IMO they've earned it.And primarily the pitching. They're currently 9th in the AL and 4th in the division (behind even the Indians :o:).

CaptainBallz
09-18-2006, 05:12 PM
I think not being in the post season will wake this team up for 2007.

Well at least we'll be spared of all the excuses of them being tired from that "long, arduous postseason".

The only thing is, isn't not getting to the postseason supposed to wake them up for, y'know, now?