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View Full Version : Phil Rogers blames Ozzie for loss as well, lol


caulfield12
09-16-2006, 11:37 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060916rogers,1,5440915.column?coll=cs-home-headlines

chaerulez
09-17-2006, 12:01 AM
All I have to say is Hermanson coming in, is that Ozzie's way of saying we give up?

ChiSoxRowand
09-17-2006, 12:10 AM
I wish more people in the media would blame Ozzie, as he has done a horrible job this year. The only person who does blame him has no credibility whatsoever.

HotelWhiteSox
09-17-2006, 12:15 AM
I agree with him, I thought it was an inning too soon when he took him out. He was going good, got a little squeezed in the 6th, the HR will happen, but I thought he'd be fine, especially with our bullpen.

ondafarm
09-17-2006, 12:23 AM
I think Ozzie has given up on this year. The pitching is exhausted, especially the starting pitching the Sox needed (Buehrle & Contreras, both having extended lousy streaks.) Ozzie is making a lot of moves to prepare guys for next year, when the competition will be exhausted from their playoff run.

BanditJimmy
09-17-2006, 12:25 AM
I do not blame Ozzie for any of this crap:

-Thome taking the 2nd half off
-Buehrle and Gracia losing 3+ MPHs on their fastball
-Pollite deciding to get his ring and retire.
-Pods sucking to the extreme that he has


None of this crap and more is Ozzie's fault. Last year a team of no names wanted this more than anyone did. This year, a team with $100 million pay-roll shows me no heart.

ChiSoxRowand
09-17-2006, 12:48 AM
I do not blame Ozzie for any of this crap:

-Thome taking the 2nd half off
-Buehrle and Gracia losing 3+ MPHs on their fastball
-Pollite deciding to get his ring and retire.
-Pods sucking to the extreme that he has


None of this crap and more is Ozzie's fault. Last year a team of no names wanted this more than anyone did. This year, a team with $100 million pay-roll shows me no heart.

Is Ozzie the only person to blame? Absolutely not. But answer this, who keeps running Pods out there when he shouldn't be playing? Who Puts Mack in center, when even he admits he sucks? Who leaves Freddy or Mark in when they are completely gassed, and a 6 IP 3 ER line changes into a 6 2/3 IP 5 ER line? Who brings in a guy who hasn't shown he can throw a strike all year with the bases loaded? It's not all Ozzie's fault, but if you think he has done a good job this year you are kidding yourself.

BainesHOF
09-17-2006, 12:59 AM
I do not blame Ozzie for any of this crap:

-Thome taking the 2nd half off
-Buehrle and Gracia losing 3+ MPHs on their fastball
-Pollite deciding to get his ring and retire.
-Pods sucking to the extreme that he has


None of this crap and more is Ozzie's fault.

All of the above are independent of Ozzie's poor performance.

QCIASOXFAN
09-17-2006, 01:05 AM
I don't put this one on Ozzie. He actually brought Thorton out to start the inning and when he got in trouble he brought in Macdougal to bail him out. He brought out our two best bullpen pitchers and gave us the best chance to win, its not his fault they blew ass. What was he supposed to do bring Bobby into the game in the 7th inning? I admit he put in Boone Logan and that was kind of stupid, but to me thats the same as bringing in Cotts. The only other guy that was left I think then was Hermanson.

beckett21
09-17-2006, 01:23 AM
I don't put this one on Ozzie. He actually brought Thorton out to start the inning and when he got in trouble he brought in Macdougal to bail him out. He brought out our two best bullpen pitchers and gave us the best chance to win, its not his fault they blew ass. What was he supposed to do bring Bobby into the game in the 7th inning? I admit he put in Boone Logan and that was kind of stupid, but to me thats the same as bringing in Cotts. The only other guy that was left I think then was Hermanson.

Agreed.

He went with his best guys out of the pen initially today; they couldn't get it done and it backfired. The moves worked out badly, but they weren't bad moves.

If he leaves Vazquez in and he gets lit up, we'd be hearing the same crap as to why did he leave Javy in the game in the first place, blah blah blah.

Today's game just sucked. Period. Time to move on.

greygoose
09-17-2006, 01:45 AM
I think Ozzie has given up on this year. The pitching is exhausted, especially the starting pitching the Sox needed (Buehrle & Contreras, both having extended lousy streaks.) Ozzie is making a lot of moves to prepare guys for next year, when the competition will be exhausted from their playoff run.

This is baloney - are the Yankees "exhausted" every year from making the playoffs?

captain54
09-17-2006, 02:09 AM
I do not blame Ozzie for any of this crap:

-Thome taking the 2nd half off
-Buehrle and Gracia losing 3+ MPHs on their fastball
-Pollite deciding to get his ring and retire.
-Pods sucking to the extreme that he has


None of this crap and more is Ozzie's fault. Last year a team of no names wanted this more than anyone did. This year, a team with $100 million pay-roll shows me no heart.

When is Kenny Williams held accountable for taking a $100 million dollar payroll and cutting corners in the bullpen??

adding Riske, McDougal and McCarthy to the bullpen, while keeping your fingers crossed that Politte and Cotts would repeat 2005, and then only
adding Thornton after Marte and Vizcaino left is not exactly very forward
thinking general managing.....

This is an embarrasment, and the organization has now taken a step backward after making great strides last year....the bullpen is a laughing
stock....this is a terrible way to follow up a dream season....

LuvSox
09-17-2006, 02:16 AM
keeping your fingers crossed that Politte and Cotts would repeat 2005


What evidence was there that those two would suck this year? That's right, none.

SoxSpeed22
09-17-2006, 02:17 AM
http://www.voccoquan.com/SteveR/images/john%20madden.JPG
"If it works, you're a genius, if it doesn't work, you're stupid."
A lot of it has not worked.

chisoxfanatic
09-17-2006, 02:24 AM
This is baloney - are the Yankees "exhausted" every year from making the playoffs?

Thank you! They have over four friggen months before they have to even report to Spring Training! They are NOT exhausted!

Try telling that to a sweatshop worker in the Domenican Republic who works 60+ hours a week making pennies...That's TRUE exhaustion!

captain54
09-17-2006, 02:29 AM
What evidence was there that those two would suck this year? That's right, none.

I don't know..I'm not the pitching coach/GM/field manager, and I wasn't there at spring training and I'm not there every day in and out observing the players, but obviously there must have been something wrong because those two were no where remotely close to being the same pitchers they were last year...

LuvSox
09-17-2006, 02:37 AM
I don't know..I'm not the pitching coach/GM/field manager, and I wasn't there at spring training and I'm not there every day in and out observing the players, but obviously there must have been something wrong because those two were no where remotely close to being the same pitchers they were last year...

Yeah, none of us REALLY know. I wonder how many times before that both previous WS teams failed to make the playoffs the next year.

TDog
09-17-2006, 04:11 AM
... Who leaves Freddy or Mark in when they are completely gassed, and a 6 IP 3 ER line changes into a 6 2/3 IP 5 ER line? ...

Apparently the same person who gets blamed for taking Vazquez out with a a 6 IP 3 ER line only to see his bullpen lose the lead and the game.

TheKittle
09-17-2006, 04:25 AM
When is Kenny Williams held accountable for taking a $100 million dollar payroll and cutting corners in the bullpen??

adding Riske, McDougal and McCarthy to the bullpen, while keeping your fingers crossed that Politte and Cotts would repeat 2005, and then only
adding Thornton after Marte and Vizcaino left is not exactly very forward
thinking general managing.....

This was my main point when I asked about the after effects of Shingo's bad 2005 season. The Dodgers added a 36 year old closer from Japan who is having a very good year. Saito got the role when Gagne went down and Baez was ineffective.

The White Sox thought Dustin would be healthy, he wasn't. They thought Cliff would be as effective as he was in 2005, he wasn't. They thought Bobby would turned out to be a very good closer, he has. But Saito would have been a very good addition to the Sox bullpen. Did KW not go after Saito, a perfect under the radar type player, because of Shingo's troubles in 2005?

cws05champ
09-17-2006, 08:24 AM
I don't blame Ozzie for this loss....I blame him for Fridays loss. If BA in in CF they win that game. I can't believe we are still putting sub par defense in CF in crucial Sept games.

SOXSINCE'70
09-17-2006, 08:47 AM
This is baloney - are the Yankees "exhausted" every year from making the playoffs?

No,but the Braves are "exhausted" from making the playoffs
14 years in a row.:roflmao: :roflmao:

2006 will be the first year since 1990 (excluding 1994,the strike year)
that the Braves miss the playoffs.

daveeym
09-17-2006, 11:16 AM
When is Kenny Williams held accountable for taking a $100 million dollar payroll and cutting corners in the bullpen??

adding Riske, McDougal and McCarthy to the bullpen, while keeping your fingers crossed that Politte and Cotts would repeat 2005, and then only
adding Thornton after Marte and Vizcaino left is not exactly very forward
thinking general managing.....

This is an embarrasment, and the organization has now taken a step backward after making great strides last year....the bullpen is a laughing
stock....this is a terrible way to follow up a dream season....No kidding and what has Brooks done this year. Basically rehashed the same old tired grinder rules and offered us nothing new. This org is resting on its laurels. :tongue:

caulfield12
09-17-2006, 11:25 AM
This is baloney - are the Yankees "exhausted" every year from making the playoffs?

And who has won the most World Series since 2000? The White Sox or the Yankees or the Marlins?

Not the middle one? Or the Braves for that matter...

At least KW has always given us teams that can theoretically compete for and win it all instead of just making it to the playoffs and getting eliminated....see Oakland, Minnesota, Detroit, the Padres, Cardinals, etc.

Minnesota did have a chance to run the table with Liriano and Santana in a short series, but that's gone now.

caulfield12
09-17-2006, 11:34 AM
No kidding and what has Brooks done this year. Basically rehashed the same old tired grinder rules and offered us nothing new. This org is resting on its laurels. :tongue:

But didn't everyone agree if no changes were made (this has been debated 1,000) times, as usually happens with a defending champion, that we'd be even worse off?

We'd definitely be even older, as a team.

If someone was there with a crystal ball to predict Pods, Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Vazquez, Garland (first half), Anderson, Politte, Cotts, Hermanson, Uribe (well, you know what you get with him at least) ALL having terrible stretches, well, they would be GM of the Year every year.

The Red Sox are in much worse shape. Did it help they made the playoffs last year to get whacked in 3 games? They had no chance of winning with their pitching going into the post-season last year. That's a team with a much bigger payroll than ours. The Yankees haven't won since 2000. The Angels haven't been able to repeat with similar payrolls and even better pitching because they don't have enough hitting. Mets, Dodgers, Cubs, Mariners....etc.

You either have to be really good with scouting (J. Santana) or be really bad as a club (Verlander high pick, Mauer #1) or make trades (Bonderman/Liriano) to get pitching.

Because we've been good or average for the last 6-7 years, we're never in a position to draft a Mark Prior, Verlander, Jered Weaver (that was a case of money), etc.

Would you prefer the White Sox totally bottomed out and built up a couple Top 5 draft picks for the first time since the late 80's/early 90's?

cheezheadsoxfan
09-17-2006, 11:35 AM
I don't blame Ozzie for this loss....I blame him for Fridays loss. If BA in in CF they win that game. I can't believe we are still putting sub par defense in CF in crucial Sept games.

Bingo! That pigheadedness has cost us at least 3 games this year. I don't think you can put it all on Ozzie, (starting pitchers, Pods sucking, O going to sleep at critical times) but that was something he could control.

caulfield12
09-17-2006, 11:37 AM
Bingo! That pigheadedness has cost us at least 3 games this year. I don't think you can put it all on Ozzie, (starting pitchers, Pods sucking, O going to sleep at critical times) but that was something he could control.

And now everyone's saying we could have traded for Thome AND had Thomas.

Now that's funny.

And I'm sure everyone also predicted Thome would be injury-prone and inept in the second half after he was our version of Big Papi or Pujols the first three months.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-17-2006, 11:55 AM
And now everyone's saying we could have traded for Thome AND had Thomas.



:rolleyes:

caulfield12
09-17-2006, 12:00 PM
:rolleyes:

Apparently you're not reading any of the threads in "what's the score?"

Of course, NOBODY was saying this in mid-May.

PaulDrake
09-17-2006, 12:32 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060916rogers,1,5440915.column?coll=cs-home-headlines
What a dumb column. Guillen has made mistakes all over the place this year and he decides to pick this one game? Ozzie didn't blow this game, the bullpen did. He also had every reason to be cautious with Vasquez because of numerous meltdowns this year, especially in the dreaded sixth inning.

A. Cavatica
09-17-2006, 12:52 PM
I don't put this one on Ozzie. He actually brought Thorton out to start the inning and when he got in trouble he brought in Macdougal to bail him out. He brought out our two best bullpen pitchers and gave us the best chance to win, its not his fault they blew ass. What was he supposed to do bring Bobby into the game in the 7th inning? I admit he put in Boone Logan and that was kind of stupid, but to me thats the same as bringing in Cotts. The only other guy that was left I think then was Hermanson.

Who is Thorton? :?:

Lip Man 1
09-17-2006, 01:19 PM
I thought the column was 'spot on' myself.

Luvsox:

No... there was no way of knowing that Politte and Cotts would completely fall apart HOWEVER when you look at their track records you see that 2005 was so far better then anything they ever did (especially considering Politte was a journeyman at best) you HAD to at least consider the possibility of the season being a 'fluke' and act accordingly. He should have covered his behind and didn't.

I don't know how many times since three division play started both teams from the previous season failed to get back to the series (I'd assume it's very, very high) but I can tell you that only three times before has a team that won the series FAILED to return to the post season the following year.

The Marlins did it twice and the Angels did in 2002. The Sox are about to join a 'select' fraternity.

Lip

caulfield12
09-17-2006, 02:24 PM
I thought the column was 'spot on' myself.

Luvsox:

No... there was no way of knowing that Politte and Cotts would completely fall apart HOWEVER when you look at their track records you see that 2005 was so far better then anything they ever did (especially considering Politte was a journeyman at best) you HAD to at least consider the possibility of the season being a 'fluke' and act accordingly. He should have covered his behind and didn't.

I don't know how many times since three division play started both teams from the previous season failed to get back to the series (I'd assume it's very, very high) but I can tell you that only three times before has a team that won the series FAILED to return to the post season the following year.

The Marlins did it twice and the Angels did in 2002. The Sox are about to join a 'select' fraternity.

Lip

But when is the last time that a division had 3 teams with over 90 wins?

That doesn't happen often either.

The White Sox would be in first place in the NL West, NL Central and very close in the AL West. Just a strange year. It's also not often a team comes from 8 games below .500 in June to win well over 90 (Minnesota). I think the Astros might have done it last year, and maybe the A's one of those years from 2000-2004.

spiffie
09-17-2006, 05:48 PM
What evidence was there that those two would suck this year? That's right, none.
Cliff Politte ERA+: Career: 112. 2005: 222
Neal Cotts ERA+: Career: 109. 2005: 209

Sure with Cotts one can say he is a young pitcher who is just finally rounding into shape, but there was no reason on earth, except for our belief that Don Cooper was some sort of magician who could fix every pitcher, to believe that Cliff would come close to his performance of 2005. This same guy, for our team, had a 4.38 ERA in 2004, so its not like we didn't know what else he was capable of doing. But in the glow of 2005 the popular wisdom became that Cooper could make any pitcher into a stud, and therefore the Cotts and Politte of 2005 were the real Cotts and Politte, and everything before was just them not living up to what they could do.

DaleJRFan
09-17-2006, 06:07 PM
I do not blame Ozzie for any of this crap:

-Thome taking the 2nd half off
-Buehrle and Gracia losing 3+ MPHs on their fastball
-Pollite deciding to get his ring and retire.
-Pods sucking to the extreme that he has


None of this crap and more is Ozzie's fault. Last year a team of no names wanted this more than anyone did. This year, a team with $100 million pay-roll shows me no heart.

After this post, there really isn't an argument anymore. Good post.

Bases loaded twice today and the result is NO runs?? You're kidding me, right? Have the Sox hit a grand slam since interleague when Thome, Crede, Iguchi, Podsednik cranked out 4 grand slams?

It's almost as if the team is STILL waiting for the Twins and Tigers to come back to them and GIVE them the division,w hich isn't going to happen.

C'mon guys!!! Play like the Champs we all know you are.

DaleJRFan
09-17-2006, 06:23 PM
No... there was no way of knowing that Politte and Cotts would completely fall apart HOWEVER when you look at their track records you see that 2005 was so far better then anything they ever did (especially considering Politte was a journeyman at best) you HAD to at least consider the possibility of the season being a 'fluke' and act accordingly. He should have covered his behind and didn't.

Good points, Lip. The bullpen was desecrated by all of the off-season moves. No one could have predicted Thornton performing as well as he has, except for maybe Cooper and Guillen. Jenks and McCarthy were both fairly unpredictable heading into the season. Did anyone really expect Jenks to be this good for a whole season? No one knew how McCarthy would respond to being a reliever. The Sox lost Vizcaino and Marte in trades... Add in Politte/Cotts not meeting expectations (albeit high expectations) and breaking ST with a 21 year old A-ball pitcher.. and what do you get? The bullpen has seemingly been the weakest link. That rests squarely on KW shoulders, not Ozzie's.

Starting bench players 3 days a week but not letting Gload play more than once a month (He's hitting .336 now), Giving Vazquez such a long leesh, letting Pods suck it up in left and get thrown out 1 out of every 2 SB attempts, those are Ozzie's fault.

Not turning double plays, throwing to the wrong base, missing the cutoff man, throwing an 84 mph fastball down the middle on a 2-0 count, bloopers dropping in a triangle of Cintron, Iguchi and Mackoviak, relievers walking the first batter they face --- I'm not exactly sure how any of this is Ozzie's or KW's fault.

The players are ultimately accountable, when the team is this good on paper.

batmanZoSo
09-17-2006, 06:58 PM
Good points, Lip. The bullpen was desecrated by all of the off-season moves. No one could have predicted Thornton performing as well as he has, except for maybe Cooper and Guillen. Jenks and McCarthy were both fairly unpredictable heading into the season. Did anyone really expect Jenks to be this good for a whole season? No one knew how McCarthy would respond to being a reliever. The Sox lost Vizcaino and Marte in trades... Add in Politte/Cotts not meeting expectations (albeit high expectations) and breaking ST with a 21 year old A-ball pitcher.. and what do you get? The bullpen has seemingly been the weakest link. That rests squarely on KW shoulders, not Ozzie's.

Starting bench players 3 days a week but not letting Gload play more than once a month (He's hitting .336 now), Giving Vazquez such a long leesh, letting Pods suck it up in left and get thrown out 1 out of every 2 SB attempts, those are Ozzie's fault.

Not turning double plays, throwing to the wrong base, missing the cutoff man, throwing an 84 mph fastball down the middle on a 2-0 count, bloopers dropping in a triangle of Cintron, Iguchi and Mackoviak, relievers walking the first batter they face --- I'm not exactly sure how any of this is Ozzie's or KW's fault.

The players are ultimately accountable, when the team is this good onpaper.

There's plenty of blame to go around. It's a true team effort to fail.

But I do emphasize what's in bold. No way this team is a third-place team.

Lip Man 1
09-17-2006, 10:44 PM
Caulfield:

I've only been able to look back to 2001 and here is your answer.

In 2002 both the AL West and the NL West had three teams with 90 or more wins.

There have also been a half dozen cases where a division had two clubs with 90 or more wins and a third team just missed, finishing in the 87-89 win range.

So yes it doesn't happen often but it's happened (or nearly happened) more often then perhaps you think.

Lip

chaerulez
09-17-2006, 10:46 PM
I wish more people in the media would blame Ozzie, as he has done a horrible job this year. The only person who does blame him has no credibility whatsoever.

I don't understand the Phil Rogers hate here, he is the most credible baseball writer in Chicagoland. Some accuse him of having a Cub bias, and it might be warranted, but was one of the first media members to point out how bad the Cubs mishandled Prior and Wood. Of course not all of Rogers' columns are good, but I'd say he's more hit than miss. Plus he did have that one all city team years back where the position players were all Sox except for 3B he put Eric Hinske as a joke.

Ol' No. 2
09-17-2006, 11:21 PM
Once in a while, Rogers is spot on. Unfortunately, this is not one of those times.

1. How do you know Vazquez wouldn't have blown up in the 7th inning? He looked shakey in the 6th, serving up a HR to Thomas, so to assume he'd have pitched a flawless 7th is absurd.

2. Even if Vazquez did pitch a flawless 7th, he would not have been able to pitch more than that one more inning. So how can you assume the bullpen wouldn't have blown up the exact same way in the 8th inning?

This is Monday morning quarterbacking at its worst.

Brian26
09-18-2006, 12:35 AM
I don't understand the Phil Rogers hate here, he is the most credible baseball writer in Chicagoland.

That might not be saying much considering the talent in this town, but I agree with you and enjoy his work.

BadBobbyJenks
09-18-2006, 01:16 AM
I thought the column was 'spot on' myself.

No... there was no way of knowing that Politte and Cotts would completely fall apart HOWEVER when you look at their track records you see that 2005 was so far better then anything they ever did (especially considering Politte was a journeyman at best) you HAD to at least consider the possibility of the season being a 'fluke' and act accordingly. He should have covered his behind and didn't.
Lip



this is just bull **** second guessing....please

Lip Man 1
09-18-2006, 02:15 AM
Thank you Bobby for that 'insightful' analysis.

My point is Politte pitched out of his ass last season, so did ...they had NEVER pitched that well before in any of their previous seasons.

It's reasonable for a G.M. to think that it was a 'fluke' and to protect his ass just in case. That's what they get paid for BadBoy to think the unthinkable and to play the 'what if,' game.

And regarding 'second guessing' there were a number of folks here from as far back as the off season warning about the bullpen being thin and that it was an area of question. It's not 'second guessing' when it's brought up ahead of time is it?

Please...

Lip

PaulDrake
09-18-2006, 10:04 AM
Once in a while, Rogers is spot on. Unfortunately, this is not one of those times.

1. How do you know Vazquez wouldn't have blown up in the 7th inning? He looked shakey in the 6th, serving up a HR to Thomas, so to assume he'd have pitched a flawless 7th is absurd.

2. Even if Vazquez did pitch a flawless 7th, he would not have been able to pitch more than that one more inning. So how can you assume the bullpen wouldn't have blown up the exact same way in the 8th inning?

This is Monday morning quarterbacking at its worst. Thank you.

Ol' No. 2
09-18-2006, 11:02 AM
Thank you Bobby for that 'insightful' analysis.

My point is Politte pitched out of his ass last season, so did ...they had NEVER pitched that well before in any of their previous seasons.

It's reasonable for a G.M. to think that it was a 'fluke' and to protect his ass just in case. That's what they get paid for BadBoy to think the unthinkable and to play the 'what if,' game.

And regarding 'second guessing' there were a number of folks here from as far back as the off season warning about the bullpen being thin and that it was an area of question. It's not 'second guessing' when it's brought up ahead of time is it?

Please...

LipOne would have been a fool to think Politte would have matched last year's numbers, given that they were significantly better than anything he'd ever done. The same logic dictates that you could not have expected him to be as bad as he was this year, which was far worse than anything he'd ever done. You can't have it both ways, Lip.

oeo
09-18-2006, 11:08 AM
Thank you Bobby for that 'insightful' analysis.

My point is Politte pitched out of his ass last season, so did ...they had NEVER pitched that well before in any of their previous seasons.

It's reasonable for a G.M. to think that it was a 'fluke' and to protect his ass just in case. That's what they get paid for BadBoy to think the unthinkable and to play the 'what if,' game.

And regarding 'second guessing' there were a number of folks here from as far back as the off season warning about the bullpen being thin and that it was an area of question. It's not 'second guessing' when it's brought up ahead of time is it?

Please...

Lip

And look back, how many of those people thought that we would have problems with Politte/Cotts?

The only 'warning' given to us was another left-handed reliever. Any Joe Schmo could have told me that a second lefty in the bullpen was a problem. Thornton came in, and took that job very well...no one could have guessed that Cotts and Politte would be absolute **** this year. I know they couldn't do what they did last year, but they have both been awful this year...tell me you predicted that they would be at the bottom of the bullpen this year; go ahead, I'd like to see it. What you're doing is second guessing and it's really easy to do that when it's all said and done.

Who would you have liked the Sox to pick up over the offseason, that you thought would do a better job than Politte/Cotts, before the season started. Outbid for Howry/Eyre? Who was out there that you would have nabbed because you knew that Politte/Cotts were an absolute fluke, and they wouldn't be worth anything this year? Who?

Brian26
09-18-2006, 11:10 AM
It's reasonable for a G.M. to think that it was a 'fluke' and to protect his ass just in case. That's what they get paid for BadBoy to think the unthinkable and to play the 'what if,' game.

There's no way you can blame KW for this. He protected himself most importantly by getting rid of two liabilities at DH and replacing them with Thome. The bullpen was protected by having McCarthy down there, who really could have been our 5th starter. He went out and got Thornton, Riske, and MacDougal as the season went on.

The key point is this: between April 1 and June 1, very little bullpen help is available anywhere. Teams aren't giving away players at that time of the year when they are still in the race. Also, solid middle relief pitching is probably the most sought-after commodity on the market. Guys like Scot Shields with LAA - 29 other teams want him too. NO way should KW get any blame on this.

Lip Man 1
09-18-2006, 01:50 PM
Brian:

It should have been done in the off season when there were guys available (and that's not counting any possible deals). I'm not saying he didn't try and again if Kenny didn't think there was an issue why did he sign every Tom, Dick, Harry, has been, cast off and never was to deals over the off season?

The bottom line, in my opinion, this bullpen was weak starting the season and it showed throughout the year with nine blown games directly charged to them. As Caulfield pointed out the Twins this year have had ONE (so far) blown game in comparison.

This isn't 'second guessing'. I recall a number of folks including Hangar 18 talking about this same issue and part of the team even before spring training started. They thought this was going to cause trouble and it turned out they were right.

There were also folks like Hal who talked about how Kenny left the Sox short in outfield depth and paid the price when BA stumbled out of the gate.

This isn't an attack Kenny thread. I think he did a great job solving the issues on the club with the exception of the two areas mentioned, and wouldn't you know it, those were two areas that really bit the club on the ass this year.

Hopefully he learns and doesn't make the same mistake twice. He's pretty good at that.

Lip

oeo
09-18-2006, 01:57 PM
Brian:

It should have been done in the off season when there were guys available (and that's not counting any possible deals). I'm not saying he didn't try and again if Kenny didn't think there was an issue why did he sign every Tom, Dick, Harry, has been, cast off and never was to deals over the off season?

The bottom line, in my opinion, this bullpen was weak starting the season and it showed throughout the year with nine blown games directly charged to them. As Caulfield pointed out the Twins this year have had ONE (so far) blown game in comparison.

This isn't 'second guessing'. I recall a number of folks including Hangar 18 talking about this same issue and part of the team even before spring training started. They thought this was going to cause trouble and it turned out they were right.

There were also folks like Hal who talked about how Kenny left the Sox short in outfield depth and paid the price when BA stumbled out of the gate.

This isn't an attack Kenny thread. I think he did a great job solving the issues on the club with the exception of the two areas mentioned, and wouldn't you know it, those were two areas that really bit the club on the ass this year.

Hopefully he learns and doesn't make the same mistake twice. He's pretty good at that.

Lip

I'll agree with that. Kenny should have had another outfielder (particularly a centerfielder)...not an infielder (Ozuna) and a corner outfielder (Mackowiak), as a back-up plan.

But...the bullpen looked (at least to me, and I think most people agree), at the beginning of the season, to be very solid except for that second left-hander. I don't think he didn't try to pick someone up, but obviously thought that no trade was worth it (trading for relievers is risky, as is). Again, what team picked up a good reliever over the offseason?

Ol' No. 2
09-18-2006, 02:10 PM
Brian:

It should have been done in the off season when there were guys available (and that's not counting any possible deals). I'm not saying he didn't try and again if Kenny didn't think there was an issue why did he sign every Tom, Dick, Harry, has been, cast off and never was to deals over the off season?

The bottom line, in my opinion, this bullpen was weak starting the season and it showed throughout the year with nine blown games directly charged to them. As Caulfield pointed out the Twins this year have had ONE (so far) blown game in comparison.

This isn't 'second guessing'. I recall a number of folks including Hangar 18 talking about this same issue and part of the team even before spring training started. They thought this was going to cause trouble and it turned out they were right.

There were also folks like Hal who talked about how Kenny left the Sox short in outfield depth and paid the price when BA stumbled out of the gate.

This isn't an attack Kenny thread. I think he did a great job solving the issues on the club with the exception of the two areas mentioned, and wouldn't you know it, those were two areas that really bit the club on the ass this year.

Hopefully he learns and doesn't make the same mistake twice. He's pretty good at that.

LipMore revisionist history. I seem to recall you were scathing in your criticism of relying on Matt Thornton in preference to Jeff Nelson.

Lip Man 1
09-18-2006, 02:13 PM
OEO:

The Yankees for one.

And not even counting Politte's and Cott's meltdowns I don't see how in essense, exchanging Viz, a healthy Hermanson and Marte for an unproven Thornton, Boone Logan and McCarthy (who wasn't a relief pitcher and trying to fit into the role) can in any way, shape or form be considered an upgrade.

Lip

Lip Man 1
09-18-2006, 02:15 PM
No.2:

See the above post. Hey who's to say how things would have gone if Nelson didn't get hurt?

Thornton has had a fine season and deserves praise and I have done so. I don't know what more do you want....my house? my first born son??

It's also possible he turns into the next Cliff Politte, someone who's had a fantastic season in what has been a very mediocre career.

Time will tell.

Lip

maurice
09-18-2006, 02:50 PM
IIRC, it turned out that Politte was seriously injured this year and had surgery.

Ol' No. 2
09-18-2006, 02:57 PM
No.2:

See the above post. Hey who's to say how things would have gone if Nelson didn't get hurt?

Thornton has had a fine season and deserves praise and I have done so. I don't know what more do you want....my house? my first born son??

It's also possible he turns into the next Cliff Politte, someone who's had a fantastic season in what has been a very mediocre career.

Time will tell.

LipYou missed the point. Nelson was just about the best that was available. You keep carping about how they should have gotten someone better, but have yet to come up with one solid name. Who could they have gotten who would be significantly better than what they had? And despite what you may think, no reliever who has a choice would choose to mark time in some team's minor league system than pitch on the major league roster of the worst team in the league.

BadBobbyJenks
09-18-2006, 04:24 PM
Thank you Bobby for that 'insightful' analysis.

My point is Politte pitched out of his ass last season, so did ...they had NEVER pitched that well before in any of their previous seasons.

It's reasonable for a G.M. to think that it was a 'fluke' and to protect his ass just in case. That's what they get paid for BadBoy to think the unthinkable and to play the 'what if,' game.

And regarding 'second guessing' there were a number of folks here from as far back as the off season warning about the bullpen being thin and that it was an area of question. It's not 'second guessing' when it's brought up ahead of time is it?

Please...

Lip


Oh really, did you bring this up? Did you have serious doubts not that cotts and politte wouldnt match last year, because we all knew that, but you thought theyd both implode? There was no way we could go into this season, thinking wed need 2 relievers to replace what these guys did last year. We should have probably brought in a back up closer too, because there was no way Bobby could do this again...oh wait

BadBobbyJenks
09-18-2006, 04:30 PM
You missed the point. Nelson was just about the best that was available. You keep carping about how they should have gotten someone better, but have yet to come up with one solid name. Who could they have gotten who would be significantly better than what they had? And despite what you may think, no reliever who has a choice would choose to mark time in some team's minor league system than pitch on the major league roster of the worst team in the league.



Exactly we can all talk on september 18th about how we "knew" this bullpen was going to cost us, but I have yet to hear what should have been done about it. There were no relievers out there, all I keep reading is how KW screwed up, but I have not heard what he should have done differently.

So please Lip, enlighten us. What reliever was out there that KW failed to make a move on???

Lip Man 1
09-18-2006, 05:47 PM
Bad Bobby:

I don't know what goes on inside the front office if I did I'd be the GM, so I can't tell you who was out there other then the off season had a bunch of names on the list many of whom were better then the Boone Logan's and Javy Lopez's of the world, no?

But regarding your earlier comment about 'second guessing.' How can it be second guessing when fans on this site were talking about it and saying it was going to be in issue even before spring training started?

Feel free to look it up, I'm sure you've got the time.

Lip

Brian26
09-18-2006, 07:48 PM
How can it be second guessing when fans on this site were talking about it and saying it was going to be in issue even before spring training started?

You mentioned Hangar18. I like the guy personally, but, if you recall, he was all over Jermaine Dye for the first three months of the season last year. Not only did Dye drive in the game winning run to win the '05 World Series, but he's been the team MVP this year.

Quoting WSI members for credibility doesn't help your arguments. We are all only fans here. Look at any of our track records, and I guarantee we've all been wrong more times than KW over the past few years. Count me as one of the guys that initially hated the AJ signing and the CLee for Pods trade. Those two moves helped win the World Series.

Johnny Mostil
09-18-2006, 08:17 PM
Bad Bobby:

I don't know what goes on inside the front office if I did I'd be the GM, so I can't tell you who was out there other then the off season had a bunch of names on the list many of whom were better then the Boone Logan's and Javy Lopez's of the world, no?

But regarding your earlier comment about 'second guessing.' How can it be second guessing when fans on this site were talking about it and saying it was going to be in issue even before spring training started?

Feel free to look it up, I'm sure you've got the time.

Lip

I don't follow this. I do remember you and others saying the bullpen was weak. But is the best response to BadBobby and No. 2's challenge to name some specific pitchers that should have been signed to say there must have been "a bunch of names" out there? Or am I misreading you?

Johnny Mostil
09-18-2006, 08:21 PM
You mentioned Hangar18. I like the guy personally, but, if you recall, he was all over Jermaine Dye for the first three months of the season last year. Not only did Dye drive in the game winning run to win the '05 World Series, but he's been the team MVP this year.

Dye was also World Series MVP, I'm sure you recall . . .

My stupidest armchair analysis moment was probably wondering what Guillén expected in having Willie Harris pinch-hit in the 8th inning of a scoreless Game 4. We all know what a disaster that turned out to be . . .

Lip Man 1
09-18-2006, 11:17 PM
Johnny:

The easiest answer I guess would be to find the free agent list from the off season.

But that doesn't inform us of any potential deals Kenny may have been trying that involved bullpen help.

Lip

BadBobbyJenks
09-19-2006, 12:15 AM
Bad Bobby:

I don't know what goes on inside the front office if I did I'd be the GM, so I can't tell you who was out there other then the off season had a bunch of names on the list many of whom were better then the Boone Logan's and Javy Lopez's of the world, no?

But regarding your earlier comment about 'second guessing.' How can it be second guessing when fans on this site were talking about it and saying it was going to be in issue even before spring training started?

Feel free to look it up, I'm sure you've got the time.

Lip


you are one smug bastard arent you, I could do with out a smart ass comment from you in every response

Johnny Mostil
09-19-2006, 07:59 AM
Johnny:

The easiest answer I guess would be to find the free agent list from the off season.

But that doesn't inform us of any potential deals Kenny may have been trying that involved bullpen help.

Lip

OK. Here's one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_free_agents) list I found on Google, and here's another (http://www.stevetheump.com/freeagents.htm). Which of the pitchers on these should the Sox have signed? Why do you think the Sox didn't sign them?

Lip Man 1
09-19-2006, 01:58 PM
Bobby:

"this is just bull **** second guessing....please"

Hmmm...I wonder where that came from?

I've felt the exact same way about you since you started 'replying' to anything that I write.

Disagree with me? No problem. But you can be a tad more courteous in your replys.

You reap what you sow.

Lip

Lip Man 1
09-19-2006, 02:09 PM
Johnny:

Thanks for finding the list.

Three names that jump right out are Eyre, Myers and Timlin.

I know the Sox contacted the agents for both Myers and Eyre and were rebuffed. Myers from what I remember signed with New York because they gave him an extra year on the contract.

I don't know if the Sox ever had any interest in Timlin (who can be a free agent again this season.)

Obviously in hindsight Kenny would have been better served giving Myers that extra year. He's from the Chicago area in the first place and I'm guessing he would have signed with the Sox all things being equal. I mean he's got to be better then Boone Logan right?

Like I said Kenny obviously knew this was an area of concern or he wouldn't have taken a flyer on every cast off in the world hoping to catch lightening again.

Anyway it's over and done with now. Hopefully he learned his lesson.

Lip

caulfield12
09-19-2006, 07:55 PM
Johnny:

Thanks for finding the list.

Three names that jump right out are Eyre, Myers and Timlin.

I know the Sox contacted the agents for both Myers and Eyre and were rebuffed. Myers from what I remember signed with New York because they gave him an extra year on the contract.

I don't know if the Sox ever had any interest in Timlin (who can be a free agent again this season.)

Obviously in hindsight Kenny would have been better served giving Myers that extra year. He's from the Chicago area in the first place and I'm guessing he would have signed with the Sox all things being equal. I mean he's got to be better then Boone Logan right?

Like I said Kenny obviously knew this was an area of concern or he wouldn't have taken a flyer on every cast off in the world hoping to catch lightening again.

Anyway it's over and done with now. Hopefully he learned his lesson.

Lip

Everything I've read led me to believe that KW really felt they pretty much had Myers in the bag and then he changed his mind and went to NY at the last second, leaving KW to scramble around and leaving us with the hodge podge of castoffs and noer do wells.

I don't think we would have been greatly excited about paying Eyre that kind of money. In hindsight it would have been more logical for us to do that than the Cubs, for all it got them.

OTOH, how many teams have two great lefties out of the pen?

The Twins have Reyes (who anybody could have had for pretty much the last five years, the Royals had him, lol) and the Tigers have Walker, both essentially journeymen. Same with Guardado before him...or Nathan, when the Giants decided he wasn't able to start.

However, we did get Jenks, Thornton and Riske for almost nothing in return. That's something. And maybe Sierra or one of our minor leaguers will turn out okay after all.

Timlin wouldn't have solved anything either with how he's performed this year, not a whole lot better than Cotts or Politte at a much higher price.

BadBobbyJenks
09-20-2006, 03:10 PM
Bobby:

"this is just bull **** second guessing....please"

Hmmm...I wonder where that came from?

I've felt the exact same way about you since you started 'replying' to anything that I write.

Disagree with me? No problem. But you can be a tad more courteous in your replys.

You reap what you sow.

Lip


replying to what you said and taking cheap shots at a poster are completely different