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View Full Version : BULLPEN!!! should anyone be held accountable???


captain54
09-16-2006, 07:33 PM
I cannot begin to count the number of games the Sox have blown from the
6th inning on...We without question have to have the worst bullpen in the last month or so...unbelievable...

at some point, is there someone that should be held accountable? there are pitchers that have gone out there time after and its the same result...it's been going on for far too long...as it looks right now, they have cost us the season...seems like this should have been a priorty back in August when this really began to fall apart....

Added McDougal, added couple of rookies after 9/1....took Politte out of the mix and pretty much Cotts too...tha'ts pretty much it...

there is a general manager, a manager and a pitching coach...between the three, how is it possible they can't put their finger on the problem and get
this thing straightened out? how do other teams manage to do it?

ode to veeck
09-16-2006, 08:08 PM
herme in there today is par for the course or ozzie tossing the towel in after the penplosion today

Lip Man 1
09-16-2006, 08:21 PM
Captain:

I have. Here is what the numbers say:

The Sox have now had 12 'blown' games this season. A 'blown' game is where they take a lead into the 7th inning or later and wind up losing the game.

Of those 12 games NINE are directly attributed to the bullpen who actually 'lost' the lead and eventually the game. Three are charged to the starter who was still in and gave up the lead.

You ask who is accountable.

Well in my book it's Kenny Williams. It's one of the very few mistakes he made this off season but it turned out to be a monumental one.

He traded Marte and Viz and lost Hermanson. The replacements were Thornton, Logan and McCarthy.

Now add the implosions of Politte and Cotts (who clearly had fluke 2005 seasons) and it's incredible Kenny didn't shore up the bullpen in the off season. (granted he didn't know Politte and Cotts were going to blow-up but given their performances in 05 were so clearly beyond what they did in the past, that he should have protected himself just in case.) He tried his best in June and July but by then it was to late.

The pen by the way blew SIX games at or before June 1st so clearly until the mid season trades it was in very tough shape.

In the off season we got nine signees who were retreads, cast off's and never was' like Javy Lopez and Kenny 'hoped' one or two would get the job done. They didn't and he was behind the eight ball from the second game of the season when Ozzie brought in Logan in a one run game. He was clearly in over his head, Haffner's blast may still be going, the Sox blew the game and there you go.

In my opinion ultimately it was Kenny who has to take the most responsibility.

Lip

captain54
09-16-2006, 08:38 PM
Lip..

Excellent analysis....

So the bullpen can be directly attributed to blowing 12 games this year...with any kind of tweaking, shave that in half and there are six games we can put back in the win column and take off the loss column....

Six off the loss column puts us in first place

this has been an issue all year and it has finally come to bite the Sox in the ass..

this is beyond bad, this is a complete and total meltdown of a very critical part of a major league baseball team...

Lip Man 1
09-16-2006, 08:43 PM
Captain:

No...the bullpen is responsible for NINE blown games. The pitching staff including starters have blown 12.

Lip

mwc44
09-16-2006, 08:49 PM
Captain:

I have. Here is what the numbers say:

The Sox have now had 12 'blown' games this season. A 'blown' game is where they take a lead into the 7th inning or later and wind up losing the game.

Of those 12 games NINE are directly attributed to the bullpen who actually 'lost' the lead and eventually the game. Three are charged to the starter who was still in and gave up the lead.

You ask who is accountable.

Well in my book it's Kenny Williams. It's one of the very few mistakes he made this off season but it turned out to be a monumental one.

He traded Marte and Viz and lost Hermanson. The replacements were Thornton, Logan and McCarthy.

Now add the implosions of Politte and Cotts (who clearly had fluke 2005 seasons) and it's incredible Kenny didn't shore up the bullpen in the off season. (granted he didn't know Politte and Cotts were going to blow-up but given their performances in 05 were so clearly beyond what they did in the past, that he should have protected himself just in case.) He tried his best in June and July but by then it was to late.

The pen by the way blew SIX games at or before June 1st so clearly until the mid season trades it was in very tough shape.

In the off season we got nine signees who were retreads, cast off's and never was' like Javy Lopez and Kenny 'hoped' one or two would get the job done. They didn't and he was behind the eight ball from the second game of the season when Ozzie brought in Logan in a one run game. He was clearly in over his head, Haffner's blast may still be going, the Sox blew the game and there you go.

In my opinion ultimately it was Kenny who has to take the most responsibility.

Lip

Come the first week of October when everyone here is scratching their heads and whining about how such a demise could happen, just come back and read this post from Lip, and then you'll have Chapter 1 of the answer.

Great post, Lip!

palehozenychicty
09-16-2006, 08:51 PM
Lip..

Excellent analysis....

So the bullpen can be directly attributed to blowing 18 games this year...with any kind of tweaking, shave that in half and there are nine games we can put back in the win column and take off the loss column....

Nine games off the loss column puts us in first place by 4 games....

this has been an issue all year and it has finally come to bite the Sox in the ass..

this is beyond bad, this is a complete and total meltdown of a very critical part of a major league baseball team...

All of this is true in a numerical and visual sense, that an improved bullpen would put the Sox in first. What's puzzling is that KW seemed to know that the starters would not pitch at the same level of excellence as last year. He DID compensate with improved offensive potential e.g. Thome. Therefore, a higher impetus should have been put on the bullpen as well. The starters have been inconsistent, but it's not surprising if you look at the number of innings and close games they participated in last year. A longer bullpen would have made a lot of difference. A legitimate leadoff hitter and backup OF will also help this team immensely. If there is a good leadoff hitter for the outfield, I can live with Uribe's offensive shortcomings. Paging Freel. Ryan Freel.

Frater Perdurabo
09-16-2006, 09:07 PM
Lip, as usual you are right, but to be fair you do have to give KW (and Cooper) credit for acquiring (and fixing) Thornton. I can't imagine how bad this bullpen would be without Thornton. Although he wasn't fantastic today, he has been the second-best reliever (behind Jenks) over the course of the entire season.

Lip Man 1
09-16-2006, 09:09 PM
Pale:

Which is why I feel the main pitching problem this year has NOT been the starters. Look at the number of wins and quality starts they have. They have been inconsistent at times and the ERA is up over last season but the dropoff is slight compared to what's gone on in the bullpen.

Lip

A. Cavatica
09-16-2006, 09:10 PM
IMHO you can't just point the finger at the bullpen. Each of our five starters had at least a 6-week stretch where he performed very poorly; we've had bad stretches from all the offensive players except Dye and Crede; we've had a surprising lapse in our ability to play sound, fundamental baseball; and our manager has managed with his head up his ass most of the season.

Not getting a proven reliever in the offseason was a mistake, but KW did a great job with the Thornton, Riske and MacDougal trades. And KW managed to find the lefthanded power bat we needed and significantly improve the bench. I find it very hard to see him as the problem.

captain54
09-16-2006, 09:16 PM
Captain:

No...the bullpen is responsible for NINE blown games. The pitching staff including starters have blown 12.

Lip

ok...my bad...

either way, with any kind of bullpen help from Kenny we take half of that
nine and shave 4 or 5 games off the loss column and we are threatening
Detroit with taking the lead and leading Minnesota....

another thought was that we had the highest payroll that I can remember
as long as I've been a Sox fan, and the most number of consecutive sellouts

yet in a critical game we have Dustin Hermanson and Boone Logan out there
to try and stop the bleeding....

its gonna be a long off season for Kenny, Ozzie and the gang....

captain54
09-16-2006, 09:29 PM
IMHO you can't just point the finger at the bullpen. Each of our five starters had at least a 6-week stretch where he performed very poorly; we've had bad stretches from all the offensive players except Dye and Crede; we've had a surprising lapse in our ability to play sound, fundamental baseball; and our manager has managed with his head up his ass most of the season.

Not getting a proven reliever in the offseason was a mistake, but KW did a great job with the Thornton, Riske and MacDougal trades. And KW managed to find the lefthanded power bat we needed and significantly improve the bench. I find it very hard to see him as the problem.

these problems go back to the beginning of this year, maybe even spring training...when it became apparent the starting pitching was not going to
be what it was last year, the bullpen was exposed for what it was...

we replaced Viscaino and Marte and later Politte and recently Cotts with three guys, (four if you want to count McCarthy), only ONE who has really been consistent, that being Thornton...

it has been one bad pitch, one mistake after another by the likes of McCarthy, Riske, McDougal, Cotts, and as of late Jenks...and the games
have become unwatchable.....

not good

Lip Man 1
09-16-2006, 10:11 PM
Frater:

I'm not singling out Thornton (who may be the 'best' candidate next season to implode like Politte and Cotts given he's performed so much better this season then at any time in his career, but that's another story...)

I'm saying as a group, Thonton, McCarthy and Logan did not represent an upgarde over Hermanson, Marte and Viz. I'm comparing the opening day roster from 2005 to 2006. As stated Kenny worked to correct the issue but he was forced to play 'catch up.' The damage was already done (six blown games specifically by the bullpen on or before June 1st) and it may have had a factor in Ozzie 'staying with' his starting pitchers one batter or one inning to long. He simply didn't trust the bullpen.

Andrew:

The starting pitching hasn't performed as well as they did in 2005 but this is not chopped liver here either. Look at the number of wins, look at the number of quality starts. They are among the best in baseball. I'm saying the starters drop off hasn't been near as bad as the bullpen's.

And it's a fact that the bullpen cost the Sox nine games where they took a lead into the 7th inning or later and lost. The starting pitchers are only accountable for three blown games.

Lip

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 10:17 PM
Frater:

I'm not singling out Thornton (who may be the 'best' candidate next season to implode like Politte and Cotts given he's performed so much better this season then at any time in his career, but that's another story...)

I'm saying as a group, Thonton, McCarthy and Logan did not represent an upgarde over Hermanson, Marte and Viz. I'm comparing the opening day roster from 2005 to 2006. As stated Kenny worked to correct the issue but he was forced to play 'catch up.' The damage was already done (six blown games specifically by the bullpen on or before June 1st) and it may have had a factor in Ozzie 'staying with' his starting pitchers one batter or one inning to long. He simply didn't trust the bullpen.

Andrew:

The starting pitching hasn't performed as well as they did in 2005 but this is not chopped liver here either. Look at the number of wins, look at the number of quality starts. They are among the best in baseball. I'm saying the starters drop off hasn't been near as bad as the bullpen's.

And it's a fact that the bullpen cost the Sox nine games where they took a lead into the 7th inning or later and lost. The starting pitchers are only accountable for three blown games.

Lip

In comparison, the Twins have lost only ONE game all season when they were leading going into the 7th inning. We've made that number look like a 56 game hitting streak just in the past three weeks with our bullpen musical chairs.

We're making the Indians' bullpen after the Wickman deal or the current Red Sox pen ALMOST look solid.

Should we get Keith Foulke back, lol? Actually, there are probably lots of worse ideas, at least he was a competitor.