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View Full Version : *official* someone call the coroner, the patient is dead 9-16 gamethread


pagansoxfan
09-16-2006, 06:58 PM
i realize as i post this, we're headed to the 9th, but when your pen surrenders 25 runs in 30 innings, your chances of winning are virtualy zero. nice going bullpen, i guess you'd rather be golfing in october.:whiner:

Frater Perdurabo
09-16-2006, 07:01 PM
:fireozzie


EDIT: As for my use of this "Fire Ozzie" tag, it is impossible to put any tag in teal, much less in "half-teal." And for those still too dense to understand satire/saracsm, please read my signature. It's all in teal. I've used up my quota of teal on this board. 1951Campbell once called me "The Prince of Teal." In fact, since I joined, West has had to re-fill the teal server several times just because of me.

Ozzie has been horrible at managing the bullpen. Yes, each and every pitcher has been inconsistent, but that still doesn't absolve Ozzie from his gross mismanagement of the bullpen. And although it didn't cost the Sox the game today, he grossly mismanaged Brian Anderson and the repeatedly hurts the Sox when he plays Rob Mackowiak out of position in CF.

Again, read my signature. If the teal hurts your eyes, read the last line. It's not in teal. If you have turned off the ability to read signatures, the last line says "Nor did he (me) mean what he said."

rdwj
09-16-2006, 07:02 PM
I guess it's kinda poetic justice that Frank ends our season :whiner:

rdwj
09-16-2006, 07:03 PM
:fireozzie:rolleyes:

app2686
09-16-2006, 07:03 PM
This is probably some of the worst baseball I've seen the White Sox play in the span of two days. When will the team realize the brevity of its situation?

We weren't opportunistic enough. Barry kept giving us one walk after the another and we left runners on base way too many times. The White Sox are becoming incredibly predictable. All it takes is a mediocre lefty to beat us these days.

Bullpen pitching was obviously terrible. As dumb as the Fox announcers can be, I think he summed it quite nicely when he chided MacDougal for throwing a bases loaded, season on the line, 3 - 2 slider to Frank Thomas.

Especially if the Twins win today, a 3 game lead in the wild card with so few games is an extremely comfortable lead.

The Chicago White Sox did little to restore my confidence in them.

I guess I just have to continue to hope.

robertks61
09-16-2006, 07:04 PM
This game hurt........

Frater Perdurabo
09-16-2006, 07:05 PM
I guess it's kinda poetic justice that Frank ends our season :whiner:

It is said that pride comes before the fall.

Ozzie's pride regarding making the ****ing lineups (Mackowiak in CF) has cost the Sox a great deal this year. Ozzie's pride regarding his incessant lefty/righty matchups in the bullpen has cost the Sox this year. And despite his moves that for the most part have worked out well, it's now apparent that KW's pride regarding Frank Thomas has cost the Sox dearly.

gbergman
09-16-2006, 07:06 PM
Well tomorrow, is a must win. If we are swept season over.

ChicagoG19
09-16-2006, 07:06 PM
Garbage, thats all i have to say, jut garbage.

SoxFan78
09-16-2006, 07:06 PM
Somebody tell the White Sox that they don't get a automatic bid into the playoffs because they won the world series.

Im thinking there is no way the Twins will lose tonight. This ****ing sucks.

Greg1983
09-16-2006, 07:07 PM
this season is OVAHHHH!!!

I'll be interested to see what this team looks like come April 2007...

CLR01
09-16-2006, 07:07 PM
I guess it's kinda poetic justice that Frank ends our season :whiner:


I hate elimination day. Oh...

Frater Perdurabo
09-16-2006, 07:07 PM
:rolleyes:

It's not possible to put tags in teal. I'm half-joking, but I'm very pissed at Ozzie for continuing to play Mackowiak in CF (I'm sure Anderson will be back on the bench tomorrow). I'm also pissed at Ozzie for his gross mismanagement of the bullpen.

I wrote in another thread that Anderson's career as a starting MLB CF will be longer than Ozzie's career as a MLB manager.

Since the All-Star Break, the Sox are 27-33, six games under .500. Have the players underperformed? Yes. But Ozzie was handed a much-improved team this season, and he has grossly mismanaged it.

It is now clear to me why Daver said he thought Ozzie would not make a great manager. I'm not saying I agree with Daver on this point, but I do see why he believes it.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-16-2006, 07:08 PM
Well, the past two games have moved me from "I am confident the Sox will earn a playoff spot (say 60%)" to "The White Sox are in it but a playoff spot is not probable (say 33%)" mainly because the bullpen doesn't look like it will hold up the rest of the stretch.

I hope I am wrong. I heard on The Score (after 2 pm) MacDougal had a sore arm so I don't know if his status changed or if Ozzie had to use him because he didn't have other options. Those two walks were painful.

This thread / board will be pretty ugly (at least until the next game) so I think it best to return when something positive happens.

SoxxoS
09-16-2006, 07:08 PM
I think all the people that said "This season is over" and we are dead and all that other crap should be remembered...so in 2 weeks when we go into Minny and sweep, then they can be banned for being fairweather.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

veeter
09-16-2006, 07:08 PM
Ozzie is really bad right now. Thornton was throwing well. You take him out and bring in a guy coming off a sore shoulder. Thome continues to be worse than bad. Rookie Ryan Sweeney can keep his shoulder in on a lefty better than Thome. To me they are the mirror image of the Jerry Manuel teams.

joebro25
09-16-2006, 07:08 PM
Wow......that was some of the worst baseball i have ever seen. How can you walk in two runs? Our bullpen sucks, the manager has no idea what he's doing, and we live and die by the homerun. Minnesota wins tonite and this season is ova.

Cellview22
09-16-2006, 07:09 PM
The Big Hurt might have ended our season with that 2 run homer getting them back in the game.. Who would've thought?! :angry:

Myrtle72
09-16-2006, 07:09 PM
:fireozzie


Ozzie put in our best bullpen pitchers today. It's not his fault they sucked.

3rdgensoxfan
09-16-2006, 07:10 PM
We just need our starting pitchers to throw complete games. I almost put this in teal but then I realized it almost makes sense considering how bad the bullpen has been.

goon
09-16-2006, 07:10 PM
i'm probably one of the least pessimistic people on this board. i gave the bullpen some time to get a rhythm before i decided to make an opinion, but with only two weeks left, if we get to the postseason, i can't see us getting out of the ALDS. not with this bullpen. they have no confidence.


our bats are cold, fine, they'll warm up. our starting pitching has officially come around, great. without a bullpen we are ****ed.

this team is thoroughly baffling.

Foulke You
09-16-2006, 07:11 PM
This loss made me more angry than any of the previous losses this year. I am so pissed, this just ruined my Saturday night.:angry:

4-1 lead and the wheels come flying off the wagon. I haven't given up yet but this game doesn't instill a lot of confidence that I'll be watching October baseball that involves the Sox.

That bullpen performance was atrocious. What was MacDougal thinking with that 3-2 pitch to Frank? Frank isn't the type of hitter who helps out a pitcher chasing a bad one. I hated to agree with the Fox boobs but they were right. You have a 97mph heater!! Use the friggin thing! Boone Logan looked like a deer in the headlights. Ugh...I need a beer or five...:mad:

veeter
09-16-2006, 07:13 PM
They can change the chess pieces around and STILL the same result in Oakland. Tease you with a good start, then proceed to lose in ways where bamboo shoots under the finger nails, seems like fun. Walking in a ****ING run? What is this little league?!!!

PhillipsBubba
09-16-2006, 07:13 PM
How many days until pitchers and catchers report???:whiner:

sox1970
09-16-2006, 07:13 PM
They're 28-35 over the last 63 games. It's not like you can classify this as a "late season collapse". They've sucked for months. Our optimism is only that they still have an opportunity to make the playoffs, but there is a little reason to think they are good enough to catch either Minnesota or Detroit.

By the way, can someone let Jim Thome know he's allowed to come up with a big hit with the bases loaded once in a while? He is absolutley brutal.

Myrtle72
09-16-2006, 07:13 PM
We just need our starting pitchers to throw complete games. I almost put this in teal but then I realized it almost makes sense considering how bad the bullpen has been.

Hey, I'm really with you on that one. I'd be afraid to go to the bullpen if I were Ozzie.

hi im skot
09-16-2006, 07:14 PM
Ugh...I need a beer or five...:mad:

I hear you...and I don't even drink.

I'd like to think I've been rather optimistic this season...but after that bullpen (and managing) performance, it's not so easy. Was Alomar calling those pitches? I would certainly assume so. If he indeed was, this loss is on his shoulders just as much as it is the bullpen's.

3-4-5 hitters looked bad again, save JD's homer.

voodoochile
09-16-2006, 07:14 PM
well that sucked...:whiner:

Soxfanspcu11
09-16-2006, 07:14 PM
Ugh...I need a beer or five...:mad:


I hear ya. I'm going to drink so much tonight that I will probably end up naked in a sewer somewhere. That's better than having to deal with the reality that the Sox blow though.

CLR01
09-16-2006, 07:14 PM
I think all the people that said "This season is over" and we are dead and all that other crap should be remembered...so in 2 weeks when we go into Minny and sweep, then they can be banned for being fairweather.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?


Great idea. :thumbsup:

We should also ban everyone who is saying the seasons over and the Sox have been eliminated if the Sox do in fact have a game tomorrow and have not been eliminated.

Dan H
09-16-2006, 07:16 PM
Well tomorrow, is a must win. If we are swept season over.

The season is over. Win or lose tomorrow , this team is done. They have been playing under .500 since the all-star break, and they are showing no life. Right now if Dye isn't doing it, they don't score. The relief pitching is awful. Could you imagine the A's bullpen blowing one like this?

Thome has disappeared. Right now he's probably leading the league in broken bats. And if he strikes out one more time by throwing the bat into the stands, I'll scream.

There is no reason to have faith in this team. They come off their best game of the year, finally win a series, and then go flat. Oakland is good, but not this good.

This is not a playoff team. Big changes have to be made in the off season.

They are back to their old story. Hit a ton of homers and contend for nothing. Face it. They are a middle of the pack team.

veeter
09-16-2006, 07:17 PM
The curse of the Alomar brothers continues. Picked up by the Sox 5 or 6 times, and no post seasons. Kenny please no more Alomars. Sandy did have a nice hit though.

Foulke You
09-16-2006, 07:17 PM
By the way, can someone let Jim Thome know he's allowed to come up with a big hit with the bases loaded once in a while? He is absolutley brutal.
I said it in last night's post game thread as well. Thome has not been the same since the wrist injury and the hamstring pull. I honestly believe the guy is only at half throttle as far as health goes. 30HRs before the break, 9 HRs after the break, you do the math. I wouldn't be opposed to Gload DH-ing a few games again to give Thome time to recoop a bit. This offense could use a jump start.

Greg1983
09-16-2006, 07:17 PM
I think all the people that said "This season is over" and we are dead and all that other crap should be remembered...so in 2 weeks when we go into Minny and sweep, then they can be banned for being fairweather.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Mark my words...this will go down as the stupidest post in the history of WSI...

PhillipsBubba
09-16-2006, 07:17 PM
Any time A WS pitcher wants to bust somebody inside...fine by me:?:

JorgeFabregas
09-16-2006, 07:19 PM
I think all the people that said "This season is over" and we are dead and all that other crap should be remembered...so in 2 weeks when we go into Minny and sweep, then they can be banned for being fairweather.

Being a fairweather fan has nothing to do with having an opinion. You can have the opinion that the White Sox won't make the playoffs and still watch/attend/cheer them on and hope they do well.

JB98
09-16-2006, 07:19 PM
I think all the people that said "This season is over" and we are dead and all that other crap should be remembered...so in 2 weeks when we go into Minny and sweep, then they can be banned for being fairweather.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

:supernana: :supernana: :supernana:

This is actually a nightmare day for me because I have to listen to all the people gripe about how much they miss Frank. I don't miss Frank in the least. I'd get rid of him again if I had to do it all over again, and we aren't out of it yet.

Quit your crying, you big babies. Go Sox!!

Frankfan4life
09-16-2006, 07:20 PM
Why, why, wahh!!!
http://re3.mm-a5.yimg.com/image/2027113493

Sorry, but after losses like this one, I want to scream like Nancy Kerrigan. These games are getting harder and harder to watch. One thing I noticed is that the Sox don't have any luck anymore (except bad). Everything that could go our way just hasn't. The ball doesn't seem to be bouncing our way like it did last year. Of course, this also means the Twins and the Tigers will win today. The Sox just look bad.

Oh, and Kenny how do you feel now about letting Big Frank go? Payback is a mutha!!!

Dan H
09-16-2006, 07:21 PM
Mark my words...this will go down as the stupidest post in the history of WSI...


I agree. It doesn't get any dumber than this.

Foulke You
09-16-2006, 07:21 PM
This is not a playoff team. Big changes have to be made in the off season.

They are back to their old story. Hit a ton of homers and contend for nothing. Face it. They are a middle of the pack team.
I disagree that big changes need to be made. If you bring back the same team with a shored up bullpen and an impact Left Fielder to replace Pods, I'll make October '07 plans for watching baseball on the South Side.

The Sox are 22-20L in 1 run games this year. If the bullpen was just average in the 2nd half, we probably win at least 5 of those games. 5 wins would put us up there with Detroit.

esbrechtel
09-16-2006, 07:22 PM
this one hurts...not gonna lie...but for some reason i see this team pulling it out of their ass at the end i dont know why...

sox1970
09-16-2006, 07:24 PM
this one hurts...not gonna lie...but for some reason i see this team pulling it out of their ass at the end i dont know why...

Yeah, I don't know why you think that either.

chisox06
09-16-2006, 07:24 PM
Pretty discusting display of baseball the last two days. Bullpen is absolutely awful, I honestly would rather have em hit a grand slam then walk in two runners because that way you can say the other team beat us and not the other way around. I'm sorry but theirs something wrong when Boone Logan holds what could be your playoff hopes in his left hand. When does "it's not good enough" turn into "it wasn't good enough?" I hope I'm wrong but I think we crossed that line today.

Foulke You
09-16-2006, 07:25 PM
One thing I noticed is that the Sox don't have any luck anymore (except bad). Everything that could go our way just hasn't. The ball doesn't seem to be bouncing our way like it did last year.
Absolutely correct. When that ball was hit under the Oakland bullpen and ruled a ground rule double, I knew we wouldn't bring the rest of the runners home. Every bounce is not going our way lately.

Plus, if there was a "ducksnorts/sawed off hits allowed" stat tracked in MLB, the White Sox would be the runaway winners this year.:(:

Myrtle72
09-16-2006, 07:25 PM
I like to believe that I have been optimistic over these past few weeks regarding the Sox. Sure, they haven't been great, but they've been hanging in there. And after todays game, I find myself anything but optimistic because frankly, we're just running out of time. Period.

BUT -

The Sox still have three games against Detroit and three games against the Twins.

Sure, based on the way they have been playing, its not entirely likely that they will win those games. But at least keep in mind those games are a chance for them to gain this ground back. And what happened today and yesterday and the past few weeks doesn't matter in the least tomorrow - tomorrow is a new day and just because someone's not hitting or pitching right today doesn't mean they can't tomorrow.

So, at the very least, try to keep in mind the fact that its not over til they're mathematically eliminated.

Palehose13
09-16-2006, 07:25 PM
Did I miss something? Were the Sox eliminated today?

I'm starting to think that everyone who believes that should stay away from here until the real off season.

veeter
09-16-2006, 07:26 PM
I said it in last night's post game thread as well. Thome has not been the same since the wrist injury and the hamstring pull. I honestly believe the guy is only at half throttle as far as health goes. 30HRs before the break, 9 HRs after the break, you do the math. I wouldn't be opposed to Gload DH-ing a few games again to give Thome time to recoop a bit. This offense could use a jump start.
If the guy is hurt get him off the field. Ozzie has always said, if you're not healthy, you wont play. Therefore, I can only assume he's is healthy and just plain sucks. I hope Thome is a one year and done deal. With Thome, the Sox are vintage '01,'02,'03,'04. He's a nice guy but I wish they'd get rid of him.

Sox-o-matic
09-16-2006, 07:26 PM
Memo to Sox bullpen: no one has ever gone to jail for throwing strikes.

Greg1983
09-16-2006, 07:27 PM
I'll be interested to see what this team looks like come April 2007...

For whatever it's worth, I meant what I said when I wrote this. I still think the nucleus of a champion is here. I think the starting pitching will come back much stronger after a full offseason's rest. I think we've got 5 or 6 hitters in our lineup that will be back next year that can inflict serious pain.

I also know we have serious work to do in the offseason. But hey, where 2007 and 2008 are concerned, I'm an optimist. I'm a ray of friggin' sunshine. :)

I also know that anyone who thinks there will be postseason ball on the south side in 2006 is smoking a very powerful weed...

JB98
09-16-2006, 07:27 PM
Did I miss something? Were the Sox eliminated today?

I'm starting to think that everyone who believes that should stay away from here until the real off season.

Good advice, PH13. I still believe, but I think I'm going to log off anyway. Gotta go root for the Tribe!!!

chisoxfanatic
09-16-2006, 07:29 PM
Ozzie put in our best bullpen pitchers today. It's not his fault they sucked.

It IS his fault for the tons of mis-managing he's done this season, which I think is what most are referring to in this thread. We would not be trailing the Twins if "The Tinkerer" wouldn't tinker with both the lineup and bullpen (not using the proper pitcher at many instances, that is).

Gotta hope for a gem thrown by Sabathia tonight...

SluggersAway
09-16-2006, 07:32 PM
They're 28-35 over the last 63 games.

More rational?

Dark clouds or kool-aid drinkers?

102605
09-16-2006, 07:34 PM
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

:o:

SoxandtheCityTee
09-16-2006, 07:36 PM
:o:

It's a line from the movie "Animal House."

soxinem1
09-16-2006, 07:36 PM
this one hurts...not gonna lie...but for some reason i see this team pulling it out of their ass at the end i dont know why...

I hope you are right, but when you spend most of your time waiting to see what your competition is doing because you cnnot play consistently, I'm not sure they can even backdoor their way into the playoffs now.

A couple weeks ago I was more optimistic, but it is now clear the only reason they are even in the race is because MIN and DET cannot run away themselves.

Part of me want to be joyous that there is still a good chance (on paper) for the post-season, but the realist keeps saying it's time to throw in the towel.

I am saying this in hopes that they prove me wrong.

Palehose13
09-16-2006, 07:36 PM
It IS his fault for the tons of mis-managing he's done this season, which I think is what most are referring to in this thread. We would not be trailing the Twins if "The Tinkerer" wouldn't tinker with both the lineup and bullpen (not using the proper pitcher at many instances, that is).

Gotta hope for a gem thrown by Sabathia tonight...

You have absolutely no idea if we would be trailing the Twins or not based on Ozzie's decisions. For the most part, every single pitcher (bullpen and starters) have been inconsistent this year.

I don't like losing any more than any of yous, and I surely don't like being in 3rd place at the moment, but I sure find it amusing that Sox fans are calling for the managers head when the team is 20 games over .500 on September 16th. This is one hell of a race between 3 pretty good ball clubs. In fact, this is probably one of the best division races in recent history. Sit back and enjoy it. If the Sox fall short, then they fall short. I'm sure KW will reload for 2007. However, I still believe there is a chance this year.

Patrick134
09-16-2006, 07:37 PM
The sox had a good approach against Zito, and drew a lot of walks. That bodes well if we face them in October. Vazquez 6th inning era is now 11.00

I'd avoid haiving him pitch deep into games come October.

gf2020
09-16-2006, 07:37 PM
Geez, some fans some of you are.

There are still games to be won and you can't tell me that clubhouse doesn't give a ****. This season is far from over.

Palehose13
09-16-2006, 07:38 PM
More rational?

Dark clouds or kool-aid drinkers?

Who the **** cares? It's baseball. I was brought up that you are supposed to have fun cheering for your team. If it causes stress in your life, it isn't a very good hobby. I'm damn happy to still be in this thing in mid-sept. There are about 20 other teams out there making their tee times for October.

chisoxfanatic
09-16-2006, 07:39 PM
You have absolutely no idea if we would be trailing the Twins or not based on Ozzie's decisions. For the most part, every single pitcher b(bullpen and starters) have been inconsistent this year.

He's pissed away at least several wins with some decisions that have left us scratching our heads. That's enough to more than make up for the difference.

SoxandtheCityTee
09-16-2006, 07:40 PM
I'd avoid haiving him pitch deep into games come October.

Wouldn't he be great for long relief when we go to a four-man in the playoffs? Hope we get to find out.

Palehose13
09-16-2006, 07:41 PM
He's pissed away at least several wins with some decisions that have left us scratching our heads. That's enough to more than make up for the difference.

Might I suggest you re-read your sig :wink:

cheeses_h_rice
09-16-2006, 07:43 PM
Anyone think Thome's AB with the sacks packed kind of mattered today?

****ing glad as **** that I missed watching that ****ing pathetic bullpen meltdown. Walking in 2 ****ing runs in a must-win game?

****ing pathetic.

Madvora
09-16-2006, 07:45 PM
Anyone think Thome's AB with the sacks packed kind of mattered today?

****ing glad as **** that I missed watching that ****ing pathetic bullpen meltdown. Walking in 2 ****ing runs in a must-win game?

****ing pathetic.
I'm surprised people have the mental makeup to go this long.
I stopped getting pissed a week ago.

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 07:45 PM
The sox had a good approach against Zito, and drew a lot of walks. That bodes well if we face them in October. Vazquez 6th inning era is now 11.00

I'd avoid haiving him pitch deep into games come October.

Vazquez is the perfect bridge reliever for the 5-7th innings. McCarthy, unfortunately, is not.

But Vazquez would probably be in the pen if we did make the playoffs...although I still would pick Vazquez over Garcia and Buehrle if it was solely based on their performance the last six weeks.

Hitmen77
09-16-2006, 07:46 PM
I guess it's kinda poetic justice that Frank ends our season :whiner:

How do you figure? Even without Frank's dinger, Sox still lose 5-4. Also, I didn't realize the Sox have been officially eliminated.

It is said that pride comes before the fall.

Ozzie's pride regarding making the ****ing lineups (Mackowiak in CF) has cost the Sox a great deal this year. Ozzie's pride regarding his incessant lefty/righty matchups in the bullpen has cost the Sox this year. And despite his moves that for the most part have worked out well, it's now apparent that KW's pride regarding Frank Thomas has cost the Sox dearly.

It's easy for us to forget that Jim Thome helped us rack up alot of wins in the first half. Our downfall in the 2nd half has been pitching. Unless Big Frank could have been one of our starting five, I don't think having him over Thome would have made a difference this season.

SluggersAway
09-16-2006, 07:47 PM
I was brought up that you are supposed to have fun cheering for your team.

I don't have any stress from baseball games, I was just asking a question.

I still cheer for the team and am having fun doing it, but I also learned how to analyze performance.

The Dude
09-16-2006, 07:47 PM
:fireozzie

Not Ozzie's fault his bullpen sucks.

Ziggy S
09-16-2006, 07:49 PM
PH13:I dig and respect your enthusiasm and optimism, but being twenty games over the .500 mark has more to do with beating up pathetic NL Comedy Central teams (of which at least two wins should have been added) then it does the actual quality of our club at this point. Hell, KC had a winning record against St. Louis; what does that tell you? I'm in this til the end, but I'm not really expecting anything besides disappointment if they continue their mostly listless, uncaring, sloppy play of the last three months.

DMarte708
09-16-2006, 07:49 PM
SHUT UP ALL YOU DAMN DARKCLOUDS!!!

I'M CONFIDENT IN TEH SOX BECAUSE....WELL...THEIR PITCHING.....NO. THEIR HITTING...NO.

Um.

Yeah, GO SOX!!!!

Everyone who fails to see this team is obviously incapable of sustaining success is a darkcloud in my mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mots09
09-16-2006, 07:50 PM
Why is there even mention of our rotation in playoffs... they aren't getting in.

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 07:50 PM
We haven't had one major injury, but the little ones are catching up with us now....

Thome
MacDougal
Jenks
Crede (back again)

palehozenychicty
09-16-2006, 07:50 PM
Didn't see the last four innings, but how on earth did we lose this game? :o:
The Sox are in trouble. Period.

The Dude
09-16-2006, 07:51 PM
It is said that pride comes before the fall.

Ozzie's pride regarding making the ****ing lineups (Mackowiak in CF) has cost the Sox a great deal this year. Ozzie's pride regarding his incessant lefty/righty matchups in the bullpen has cost the Sox this year. And despite his moves that for the most part have worked out well, it's now apparent that KW's pride regarding Frank Thomas has cost the Sox dearly.

If Frank Thomas was on the team, we'd still be walking in batters and giving up a **** ton of runs from the pen. Thomas and pride have not cost the Sox these 64 losses. Bad defense and bad relief pitching have been our biggest problem this season. Last time I checked, Thomas contributes nothing to both of those.

Mots09
09-16-2006, 07:51 PM
They lost the same way they have the last few week, bullpen

backbreaker was walking in 2 runs.

hsnterprize
09-16-2006, 07:51 PM
I don't want to sound either too optimistic or pessimistic, but let's face it folks...this is is NOT the same caliber squad that graced the field last year. That's obvious enough. But...when the bullpen blows another winable game, and the offense leaves 9 runners on base before the starting pitcher gets taken out, that's a serious problem. As badly as it was to watch Frank Thomas "hurt" his former team, the White Sox could've played good enough to where Frank shouldn't have been a factor. Instead of the team pulling away to a 4-run lead of their own early in the contest, Iguchi pops out on a lame bunt attempt, player after player gets out with runners in scoring position, and the A's ultimately take advantage of bad bullpen pitching. Hermanson was pretty much put into a situation where he couldn't make a mistake...and what happened...the first pitch gets hit into left for an Oakland RBI. Pathetic...just pathetic.

We can't keep relying on Minnesota to lose game after game. Sooner or later, all these "missed opportunities" are going to bite us out of the post-season. It's as almost like Ozzie WANTS the final series against Minnesota to be the "do-or-die" series the fans and media love to watch. But what the heck good is it going to do when the team doesn't play well against Oakland and other teams leading up to that series. We can't rely on the Sox somehow "turning it on" against Detroit and Minnesota when it matters the most. If the Sox keep playing like this, those series against the Tigers and Twins won't mean jack except for determining how CLOSE the Sox got to a post-season berth without actually making it.

I'm just as pissed off as the next Sox fan. I'm not throwing in the towel just yet, but my arm's getting loose. And if the Sox don't play well enough to stop me, then I'll throw a perfect strike with my towel and strike out the 2006 World Champion Chicago White Sox with a passion.

Arkham
09-16-2006, 07:52 PM
How do you figure? Even without Frank's dinger, Sox still lose 5-4.

Frank also had a sac fly and walked in a run. He had 4 of the A's 7 RBIs.

The Dude
09-16-2006, 07:52 PM
I hear ya. I'm going to drink so much tonight that I will probably end up naked in a sewer somewhere. That's better than having to deal with the reality that the Sox blow though.

:rolling:

Sox Fan 35
09-16-2006, 07:53 PM
Why is there even mention of our rotation in playoffs... they aren't getting in.

It ain't over yet. I know it dosen't look real good right now but if they go take care of business against the Twins and Tigers they can do it.

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 07:54 PM
PH13:I dig and respect your enthusiasm and optimism, but being twenty games over the .500 mark has more to do with beating up pathetic NL Comedy Central teams (of which at least two wins should have been added) then it does the actual quality of our club at this point. Hell, KC had a winning record against St. Louis; what does that tell you? I'm in this til the end, but I'm not really expecting anything besides disappointment if they continue their mostly listless, uncaring, sloppy play of the last three months.


I think if the White Sox and Royals were to continue playing for another two months with 0-0 records, the Royals would undoubtedly finish ahead of us.

Right now, their beating the Tigers up and us sweeping them is about the only chance we have as far as that goes.

Each of the 3 AL Central teams has magnified overall records due to their dominance in interleague play...but I wouldn't be surprised if both DET and Minnesota (or the White Sox) were knocked out of the first round.

Which sucks, because we'll have another BB book about how he brilliantly signed Thomas (making him the Exec. of the Year, of course). If the White Sox don't make it, I hope he does lead the A's to the World Series. He deserves the opportunity. And I won't root against the Twins or Detroit if they're playing against the Yankees.

Mots09
09-16-2006, 07:54 PM
It ain't over yet. I know it dosen't look real good right now but if they go take care of business against the Twins and Tigers they can do it.


You banking on our starters throwing complete games, b/c w/out that there is no shot in hell.

Bully isn't dependable enough.

DMarte708
09-16-2006, 07:55 PM
It ain't over yet. I know it dosen't look real good right now but if they go take care of business against the Twins and Tigers they can do it.
And what makes you believe, other than blind hope, they'll "take care of business" against Twins and Tigers.

Any proof to back up your claims?

Myrtle72
09-16-2006, 07:56 PM
And what makes you believe, other than blind hope, they'll "take care of business" against Twins and Tigers.

Any proof to back up your claims?

Any proof to say they can't?

We can't predict the future. Period. It doesn't matter what they have done in the past - Thome striking out today doesn't mean he can't hit a slam tomorrow.

Mots09
09-16-2006, 07:58 PM
Any proof to say they can't?

We can't predict the future. Period. It doesn't matter what they have done in the past - Thome striking out today doesn't mean he can't hit a slam tomorrow.


Myrtle

the proof is in the pudding. You can't consistantly win w/out having a strong bullpen.

That's why they aren't going to win and get in.

Mots09
09-16-2006, 07:59 PM
I am out of here guys don't let it ruin your night too much.

GO SOX

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 07:59 PM
Besides the fact that we won the World Series last year, we would have almost no reason to believe it was possible if you'd watched the last 65 games. The one ray of hope has been the starting pitching the last two weeks and Jermaine Dye. That about sums it up.

You would have felt the same way you did in mid-September in 2003 when we also arguably had the best team in baseball (on paper) but succumbed to the Twins.

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 08:00 PM
Myrtle

the proof is in the pudding. You can't consistantly win w/out having a strong bullpen.

That's why they aren't going to win and get in.


Jenks definitely has lost his aura of invincibility.

Maybe they will end up shutting him down altogether in the next week or so. I would hate to jeopardize next season by somehow worsening his hip injury.

Myrtle72
09-16-2006, 08:01 PM
Myrtle

the proof is in the pudding. You can't consistantly win w/out having a strong bullpen.

That's why they aren't going to win and get in.

I'll say it again: you can't predict the future based on how the Sox have performed over the past few weeks.

The bullpen isn't doing well right now, but that doesn't mean they can't clean up their act tomorrow. Now, I'm not saying it's likely that they will turn it around, because it's probably not. But I would never say that you have proof that the Sox can't make the playoffs based on today's game or the bullpens past performance.

Ziggy S
09-16-2006, 08:03 PM
They have to TCB against the Mariners and this last game versus the A's as well. Every game counts and the number of them is shrinking.
Question for everybody from the manager to the last guy on the bench and bullpen, Could you guys remove your heads from year hind ends, right now? That would really be appreciated!
No, it's not over, not even close. However, if the bulllpen keeps crapping out, Ozzie keeps starting RobM in CF AND bringing in Neal Cotts AND McCarthy in a tight game, and we keep leaving runners in scoring position, and we don't go on a nice run, this team is DOA.
At this point, I'll feel good if we make the playoffs, but I'm not going to freak out or be that shocked if they do not. I've got bigger things on my plate in these next few months (becoming an alcoholic once I get back to the States and I'm allowed to drink again, for instance).

1951Campbell
09-16-2006, 08:03 PM
Well tomorrow, is a must win. If we are swept season over.

:rolleyes:

SluggersAway
09-16-2006, 08:04 PM
I sure find it amusing that Sox fans are calling for the managers head when the team is 20 games over .500 on September 16th. This is one hell of a race between 3 pretty good ball clubs.

It would be one thing if the team was performing better in the second half than in the first, sadly the opposite is true.

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 08:07 PM
It would be one thing if the team was performing better in the second half than in the first, sadly the opposite is true.

In fact, the only recent season we picked it up in the 2nd half was 2003, but we collapsed at the end.

And part of that is attributable to the fact that the Royals were never legitimate contenders...both the Twins and the White Sox almost HAD to play better, the law of averages caught up with them and their house of cards collapsed.

The White Sox have not been a second half team in recent years, and I think this trend needs to be analyzed and studied...just like our disasters in Oakland.

Sox Fan 35
09-16-2006, 08:16 PM
Any proof to say they can't?

We can't predict the future. Period. It doesn't matter what they have done in the past - Thome striking out today doesn't mean he can't hit a slam tomorrow.

I agree.

Its not like the Tigers are playing great ball right now

Let's save the "their out of it" junk until they are actually eliminated.

gobears1987
09-16-2006, 08:18 PM
OY this sucks

SoxSpeed22
09-16-2006, 08:23 PM
Dark cloud festival, I don't want any tickets.

hsnterprize
09-16-2006, 08:24 PM
I'll say it again: you can't predict the future based on how the Sox have performed over the past few weeks.

The bullpen isn't doing well right now, but that doesn't mean they can't clean up their act tomorrow. Now, I'm not saying it's likely that they will turn it around, because it's probably not. But I would never say that you have proof that the Sox can't make the playoffs based on today's game or the bullpens past performance.I know personally there isn't any PROOF that the Sox won't catch up and get their act together. All of us as a whole want the team to start winning more consistently down the stretch. It's just frustrating when the Sox waste chance after chance after chance to gain some ground.

This team was supposed to be better than last year's squad. We can clearly see they're not...at least as of now. There's too much reasoning to believe based on their play that they won't qualify for the post-season. However, even the toughest pessimist would like to be proven wrong, and see the Sox turn it up and win. I can definitely tell you that no team, whether they're the defending world champs or not, will do well with a bullpen that virtually gives away games like the Sox bullpen did today. That's just plain unacceptable in my opinion, and Ozzie and Coop need to do something about it NOW before any chance to make the post-season is up and gone.

nasox
09-16-2006, 08:27 PM
I think all the people that said "This season is over" and we are dead and all that other crap should be remembered...so in 2 weeks when we go into Minny and sweep, then they can be banned for being fairweather.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?


Can something be over if it never happened?

Wow. I hope you're drunk.

batmanZoSo
09-16-2006, 08:31 PM
Can something be over if it never happened?

Wow. I hope you're drunk.

There are actually people who don't know that quote? It's only used like every day on WSI...

slavko
09-16-2006, 08:36 PM
It's not Ozzie. It's not KW. It's not Big Frank. It's not the starters. It's not the defense. It's what it always is, the bullpen. Old saying:"Great bullpens make great managers." KW tried to fix it on the fly, for a short time I thought he had, but he hadn't.

2000: Never blew a lead.
2001: Always blew a lead.

History repeating itself. It's still not too late, but tell me, what's going to change what's happening now?

0o0o0
09-16-2006, 08:39 PM
It's not Ozzie. It's not KW. It's not Big Frank. It's not the starters. It's not the defense. It's what it always is, the bullpen. Old saying:"Great bullpens make great managers." KW tried to fix it on the fly, for a short time I thought he had, but he hadn't.

:?: It's not the offense scoring only 4 runs off Zito while getting 7 hits and 7 walks?

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 08:41 PM
What could any coach possibly do to "fix" the bullpen at this point?

The odds are just as high that they go back to playing "Ozzie Ball" and win every game from here on out by manufacturing runs.

It is what it is. We're going to have to take some money from the rotation and offense and redirect it at making it a strength.

And we need MacDougal and Jenks at full strength. That's the biggest problem right now. A healthy and confident MacDougal goes after Frank...and that's the last thing Mike was today.

palehozenychicty
09-16-2006, 08:42 PM
:?: It's not the offense scoring only 4 runs off Zito while getting 7 hits and 7 walks?

The offense can take some heat, but the Sox had control of this game going into the sixth inning. If the bullpen pitches up to form, they still win the game despite offensive shortcomings. People forget that the greatest offensive players only hit 30 percent of the time. Pitching and D always wins.

CYGarland20
09-16-2006, 08:53 PM
I think all the people that said "This season is over" and we are dead and all that other crap should be remembered...so in 2 weeks when we go into Minny and sweep, then they can be banned for being fairweather.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
This team is too inconsistent for words............. At this point I can't wait for this season to be over, it's just been WAY too frustrating to say the least. Just when you think they are out of it, they pull you back in it. Not to mention Ozzie is doing everything in his power to throw this season down the toilet, what with his pisspoor use of Mack in Center, poor BP managing, leaving starters in TOO long, constant tinkering of the lineup, and so on and so on..................IMO, We HAVE to win the next 4 games or this season is over

Frater Perdurabo
09-16-2006, 08:56 PM
How do you figure? Even without Frank's dinger, Sox still lose 5-4. Also, I didn't realize the Sox have been officially eliminated.

It's easy for us to forget that Jim Thome helped us rack up alot of wins in the first half. Our downfall in the 2nd half has been pitching. Unless Big Frank could have been one of our starting five, I don't think having him over Thome would have made a difference this season.

I cheered the Thome deal and I wanted to keep Frank. I also was glad when they re-signed Paulie and still argued that there still was room for Frank. There are/were enough ABs to keep all of them and to get them ABs exclusively in situations in which all three of them would do well, and not in situations where each of them are mediocre or worse. This offense would have been more consistent if Frank was getting the DH ABs against LHPs.

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 08:57 PM
This team is too inconsistent for words, at this point I can't wait for this season to be over, it's just been TOO frustrating for words. Just when you think they are out of it, they pull you back in it. Not to mention Ozzie is doing everything in his power to throw this season down the toilet, with his pisspoor use of Mack in Center, poor BP managing, leaving starters in TOO long, constant tinkering of the lineup, and so on and so on..................IMO, We HAVE to win the next 4 games or this season is over


Essentially, we need four complete games in a row.

HotelWhiteSox
09-16-2006, 09:00 PM
Umpires hurt in this one too, Javy was squeezed in the 6th, and every Sox pitcher going forward was as well, but ****ing FOX only analyzes one pitch Zito didn't get that was iffy

I will put blame on Ozzie as well though, as I was screaming at the TV when I saw he took Javy out, he was cruising, has been great lately, and with the **** bullpen we have, it was at least an inning too early to take out Javy. A horrible managing job this year, how do you like Mackowiak over Anderson after these past two days?

HotelWhiteSox
09-16-2006, 09:03 PM
:?: It's not the offense scoring only 4 runs off Zito while getting 7 hits and 7 walks?

4 runs is good enough to win a game, especially in Oakland against good pitching. It doesn't always have to be a blowout. The offense could've scored 10-12, they probably still would've blown it. The pen already made it so they had to score 8, AGAIN

CYGarland20
09-16-2006, 09:05 PM
Essentially, we need four complete games in a row.
Well we have done it before......I would be absolutely shocked if that happened, about as much if we actually make the playoffs....

ode to veeck
09-16-2006, 09:11 PM
Essentially, we need four complete games in a row.

Essentially, we need four complete games in a row.
Essentially, we need four complete games in a row.
Essentially, we need four complete games in a row.

SluggersAway
09-16-2006, 09:18 PM
I cheered the Thome deal and I wanted to keep Frank. I also was glad when they re-signed Paulie and still argued that there still was room for Frank...

I bet Frank would've stayed given the opportunity to repeat.

But, it is pretty clear Frank is gone due to personality clashes with management.

Lip Man 1
09-16-2006, 09:27 PM
That's 12 blown games this season (where the Sox took a lead into the 7th inning or later.) 9 are the direct responsibility of the bullpen. Six of those nine took place on or before June 1st.

I sincerely hope Kenny is a little more aggresive this off season in fixing a major problem... one that the Boone Logan's, Javier Lopez's and the other castoff's he signed this past off season couldn't solve.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
09-16-2006, 09:32 PM
That's 12 blown games this season (where the Sox took a lead into the 7th inning or later.) 9 are the direct responsibility of the bullpen. Six of those nine took place on or before June 1st.

I sincerely hope Kenny is a little more aggresive this off season in fixing a major problem... one that the Boone Logan's, Javier Lopez's and the other castoff's he signed this past off season couldn't solve.

Lip

Lip, I agree with you, although being of the non "dark cloud" persuasion I still know the Sox have a shot at the playoffs this year.

Even if they do make the playoffs, though, it is clear that KW has some housecleaning to perform.

JB98
09-16-2006, 09:34 PM
Lip, I agree with you, although being of the non "dark cloud" persuasion I still know the Sox have a shot at the playoffs this year.

Even if they do make the playoffs, though, it is clear that KW has some housecleaning to perform.

KW made several changes after winning the World Series last year. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to assume that several changes will be made this offseason, regardless of how the 2006 campaign ends.

MarySwiss
09-16-2006, 09:37 PM
Lip, I agree with you, although being of the non "dark cloud" persuasion I still know the Sox have a shot at the playoffs this year.

Even if they do make the playoffs, though, it is clear that KW has some housecleaning to perform.

Yes, he does, but I agree with you, Frater; they still have a shot. However, that game was gut-wrenching to watch. And I had to write the TBGR for it, too. :(:

HotelWhiteSox
09-16-2006, 09:38 PM
That's 12 blown games this season (where the Sox took a lead into the 7th inning or later.) 9 are the direct responsibility of the bullpen. Six of those nine took place on or before June 1st.

I sincerely hope Kenny is a little more aggresive this off season in fixing a major problem... one that the Boone Logan's, Javier Lopez's and the other castoff's he signed this past off season couldn't solve.

Lip

I think this shows how people took the Luis Vizcaino's of the world for granted (only looking at numbers mainly based on 1 game when he was forced out there too long). Hell, even Marte was pretty good on the road, though he isn't as big a deal as Thornton replaced him

southside rocks
09-16-2006, 09:38 PM
It would be one thing if the team was performing better in the second half than in the first, sadly the opposite is true.

Yeah, that's the only thing that really disturbs me ... I do not like that they've played under-.500 ball in the second half of the season. Don't like it at all.

Vazquez deserved to win today, shame that the bullpen couldn't manage to keep it intact for him.

And this isn't a slam of Thome, but he seems like he hasn't had a hit in forever. :?:

Frater Perdurabo
09-16-2006, 09:43 PM
KW made several changes after winning the World Series last year. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to assume that several changes will be made this offseason, regardless of how the 2006 campaign ends.

I still stand by my assertion at the time that in the context of when the trade was made the Vazquez deal wasn't necessary, and I'll stand by that assertion even if Vazquez goes 6-0 in the postseason and wins the WS MVP (I'm not going to windsock and deny a previous prediction, but I will be overjoyed to get to eat crow!).
:D:

It's clear the Thome acquisition was necessary, and Anderson is such a HUGE defensive upgrade that it offset any loss of offense. Not keeping Frank has turned out to be a big mistake, and I said so at the time.

So, IMHO (and I sort of said so at the time), fewer changes were necessary last offseason. More will be necessary this offseason, even if they do win it all.

soxfanatlanta
09-16-2006, 09:44 PM
Even if they do make the playoffs, though, it is clear that KW has some housecleaning to perform.

KW has a pretty busy off season ahead of him, no? Getting a new leadoff hitter, possibly replacing a shortstop, AND building a bullpen completely from scratch to bridge to Jenks? He has made some great moves in the past, but that last task is damn near impossible. Bullpens are a complete crapshoot from one year to the next, IMO.

BYW, although they are not out of the hunt, they just don't look like they are in it right now. :angry:

sox1970
09-16-2006, 09:46 PM
Sox Tragic Number is 12.

Lip Man 1
09-16-2006, 09:46 PM
Frater:

Figure a third of the roster will be gone. That's eight or nine new faces.

Lip

JB98
09-16-2006, 09:51 PM
I still stand by my assertion at the time that in the context of when the trade was made the Vazquez deal wasn't necessary, and I'll stand by that assertion even if Vazquez goes 6-0 in the postseason and wins the WS MVP (I'm not going to windsock and deny a previous prediction, but I will be overjoyed to get to eat crow!).
:D:

It's clear the Thome acquisition was necessary, and Anderson is such a HUGE defensive upgrade that it offset any loss of offense. Not keeping Frank has turned out to be a big mistake, and I said so at the time.

So, IMHO (and I sort of said so at the time), fewer changes were necessary last offseason. More will be necessary this offseason, even if they do win it all.

You and I agree on Vazquez, but we don't miss Frank. How many 1B/DH do you need? Frank has had a fine year, and good for him. But Konerko and Thome have done just as well, if not better.

You liked the Thome trade, and I did too. You liked resigning Konerko, and I did too. Given those two things, what were the Sox going to do with Frank? It was a bad fit, especially given that Frank does not get along with KW, and I don't think his relationship with Ozzie is all that rosy either.

Frater Perdurabo
09-16-2006, 09:53 PM
KW has a pretty busy off season ahead of him, no? Getting a new leadoff hitter, possibly replacing a shortstop, AND building a bullpen completely from scratch to bridge to Jenks? He has made some great moves in the past, but that last task is damn near impossible. Bullpens are a complete crapshoot from one year to the next, IMO.

BYW, although they are not out of the hunt, they just don't look like they are in it right now. :angry:

There are possible, plausible, doable scenarios for shortstop, even if some are admittedly deeppink. Most involve trades whereby the Sox would have to give up a player who has value to the other team. Same thing goes for leadoff hitter. Indeed, shortstop/leadoff can be handled in one fell swoop if KW gets the right player.

In the pen, the Sox have the 8th and 9th innings under control. Having three fireballers in Jenks, McDougal and Thornton is a great core of late-inning releivers. Payroll savings generated with creative trades can buy a great middle relief corps.

KW already has proven that he CAN do it on the fly. He took a risk in substantially weakening the offense (losing Maggs and Lee) and got a leadoff hitter, bullpen help, and enough payroll flexibility to put together a World Series champion.

If he is willing to take calculated risks, KW can repeat his masterful 2004-2005 offseason.

palehozenychicty
09-16-2006, 09:59 PM
Bullpens are a complete crapshoot from one year to the next, IMO.

BYW, although they are not out of the hunt, they just don't look like they are in it right now. :angry:

They are. Look at Guillermo Mota. He was horrible with the Toons, and now he is a valuable arm for the Mets. Granted, it's the NL. But it proves the point, that you don't know about bullpens from one year to the next. I wouldn't have minded a guy like Jon Rauch back, but he crossed management. So that was that.

Frater Perdurabo
09-16-2006, 10:03 PM
You liked the Thome trade, and I did too. You liked resigning Konerko, and I did too. Given those two things, what were the Sox going to do with Frank? It was a bad fit, especially given that Frank does not get along with KW, and I don't think his relationship with Ozzie is all that rosy either.

I've detailed this ad nauseum elsewhere, but the short answer is this: give Frank all the ABs as DH against LHP. Give Thome all the ABs at DH against RHP. Play a 15-20 games with Thome at first and Frank at DH against RHP. When one starts at DH, the other is available for PH duty. If one gets on base (not a homer) after the fifth inning, Ozzie could put in Ozuna as a pinch runner and then pinch hit with the other guy during the next AB. With the threat of one of the two coming off the bench, opposing managers would be reluctant to make certain pitching changes, benefitting other Sox hitters. With the flexibility provided by the versatile Cintron, Mackowiak and Ozuna, Gload would have been superfluous. The bottom line is that there would be enough ABs for Thome, Frank and PK in situations in which each historically has excelled.

Finally, KW could have swallowed his pride, and Ozzie and Frank coexisted fine in 2004 and 2005. Only after Frank left, and only when reporters (fishing for a controversy) incessantly badgered Ozzie about Frank, did Ozzie utter much anti-Frank rhetoric. (Frank did not have a problem when Ozzie shot off his mouth about Frank just after Ozzie was hired in late 2003).

samram
09-16-2006, 10:03 PM
There are actually people who don't know that quote? It's only used like every day on WSI...

To an annoying extent at that. Yeah, we get it. The Sox are not officially eliminated.

JB98
09-16-2006, 10:06 PM
I've detailed this ad nauseum elsewhere, but the short answer is this: give Frank all the ABs as DH against LHP. Give Thome all the ABs at DH against RHP. Play a 15-20 games with Thome at first and Frank at DH against RHP. When one starts at DH, the other is available for PH duty. If one gets on base (not a homer) after the fifth inning, Ozzie could put in Ozuna as a pinch runner and then pinch hit with the other guy during the next AB. With the threat of one of the two coming off the bench, opposing managers would be reluctant to make certain pitching changes, benefitting other Sox hitters. With the flexibility provided by the versatile Cintron, Mackowiak and Ozuna, Gload would have been superfluous. The bottom line is that there would be enough ABs for Thome, Frank and PK in situations in which each historically has excelled.

Finally, KW could have swallowed his pride, and Ozzie and Frank coexisted fine in 2004 and 2005. Only after Frank left, and only when reporters (fishing for a controversy) incessantly badgered Ozzie about Frank, did Ozzie utter much anti-Frank rhetoric. (Frank did not have a problem when Ozzie shot off his mouth about Frank just after Ozzie was hired in late 2003).

I'm sure Frank would have loved this arrangement. KW isn't the only one with pride. No way Frank would have swallowed HIS pride to take a part-time position.

samram
09-16-2006, 10:08 PM
Frank is having a great year and I'm happy for him, but his absence from the 2006 Sox has absolutely nothing to do with the team's struggles.

DickAllen72
09-16-2006, 10:11 PM
Sox Tragic Number is 12.

Well fellow Sox fans, with Detroit and Minnesota winning tonight, it's going to take a miracle finish for the Sox to make the playoffs. Let's hope they have another one of those nine game winning streaks in them--starting tomorrow.

Right now, it doesn't look good.

SluggersAway
09-16-2006, 10:11 PM
No way Frank would have swallowed HIS pride to take a part-time position.

Thome and Frank were both coming off of injury, management was in a great position to dictate the terms for the season as they did in Oakland and Chicago.

SluggersAway
09-16-2006, 10:15 PM
I think a healthy Frank would've liked nothing more but the opportunity to bring another world series to the south side.

Look to the bitter words after they let him go as evidence.

JB98
09-16-2006, 10:17 PM
I think a healthy Frank would've liked nothing more but the opportunity to bring another world series to the south side.

Look to the bitter words after they let him go as evidence.

As a part-time player? I doubt it.

A. Cavatica
09-16-2006, 10:22 PM
<halfteal>I blame the haircut policy.</halfteal>

Soxfest
09-16-2006, 10:23 PM
Can Sox win a dam game at Oakland!:angry:

samram
09-16-2006, 10:23 PM
I think a healthy Frank would've liked nothing more but the opportunity to bring another world series to the south side.

Look to the bitter words after they let him go as evidence.

The question of whether Frank should or should not have come back, etc. has been exhaustively discussed. However, his presence on this team would have been blue on black. His absence is not the cause of the team's struggles.

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 10:24 PM
I think a healthy Frank would've liked nothing more but the opportunity to bring another world series to the south side.

Look to the bitter words after they let him go as evidence.

Part-time play would have kept him 2 seasons from his goal of 500 HR's, at least, especially if it was strictly against LHPers.

Frater Perdurabo
09-16-2006, 10:25 PM
I'm sure Frank would have loved this arrangement. KW isn't the only one with pride. No way Frank would have swallowed HIS pride to take a part-time position.

I respectfully disagree.

If I were KW and in his position and had the same feelings has KW has had about Frank, I still would have flown out to Las Vegas, visited with Frank, and laid it all out on the table. Actually, I first would have run my plan by JR and then would bring JR with me out to Vegas to visit Frank. Anyway, my pitch would have gone something like this (and remember, I am pretending I am KW in this, so not all of this represents what I think, but rather what I think a more rational and less emotional KW should think):

"Frank, we have had our differences over the years. I haven't particularly cared for your lack of judgement in dealing with the media and in the past you have at times been too concerned with compiling personal stats. I also think you have let yourself get too big for your britches, and that has put added stress on your foot and ankle.

"But at the same time, you mean more to this franchise than any other player who has ever worn the White Sox uniform, and I want to help you help me as we try to repeat. I want you to lose 25-30 pounds with some serious cardio training. In the spring, I want you to come back on an incentive-laden contract structured to a role in which if you are healthy you can expect to get approximately 300 plate appearances, mostly against lefties and against righties who you have clobbered in the past. You also would be the primary pinch hitter on the days you do not start. You probably would get at least one plate appearace almost every day, and on many days would get three or four. I think in this kind of role you can put up a very high OPS and have a great HR/AB rate, because you will be avoiding those pitchers against who you may have struggled. You and Jim Thome could be the most fearsome DH combo in the history of mankind.

"I am confident that if you stay healthy, you will get to 500 homers by the end of 2007, and keep your career batting average above .300, and you should be able to have lots of postseason ABs in 2006 and 2007, and be able to retire having played in one uniform and have a shot at two more World Series rings. Not even A-Rod or Bonds can say that...

"We don't have to like each other in order to help each other out. Will you agree to this, Frank?"

If KW put it that way, and if JR was on board with it (and I can't imagine him not being supportive), I think Frank would have signed on the spot.

palehozenychicty
09-16-2006, 10:26 PM
Frank is having a great year and I'm happy for him, but his absence from the 2006 Sox has absolutely nothing to do with the team's struggles.

We have a winner!

JB98
09-16-2006, 10:27 PM
I respectfully disagree.

If I were KW and in his position and had the same feelings has KW has had about Frank, I still would have flown out to Las Vegas, visited with Frank, and laid it all out on the table. Actually, I first would have run my plan by JR and then would bring JR with me out to Vegas to visit Frank. Anyway, my pitch would have gone something like this (and remember, I am pretending I am KW in this, so not all of this represents what I think, but rather what I think a more rational and less emotional KW should think):



If KW put it that way, and if JR was on board with it (and I can't imagine him not being supportive), I think Frank would have signed on the spot.

Agree to disagree.

samram
09-16-2006, 10:29 PM
So, here's the new game of "what if":

If the Tigers go .500 for the last 14 games, they'll be 96-66. The Sox would have to go 12-2 to catch them.

If the Twins go .500 for the last 14 games, they'll be 94-68. The Sox would have to go 10-4 to catch them.

There is not one shred of evidence that suggests the Sox can go 10-4. At this point, there is only hope they'll do that, although my guess is the Sox will have to go at least 12-2 to get in even as the WC.

JB98
09-16-2006, 10:30 PM
So, here's the new game of "what if":

If the Tigers go .500 for the last 14 games, they'll be 96-66. The Sox would have to go 12-2 to catch them.

If the Twins go .500 for the last 14 games, they'll be 94-68. The Sox would have to go 10-4 to catch them.

There is not one shred of evidence that suggests the Sox can go 10-4. At this point, there is only hope they'll do that, although my guess is the Sox will have to go at least 12-2 to get in even as the WC.

The head-to-head games are the best hope. You're right: The math is starting to work against us now.

samram
09-16-2006, 10:34 PM
The head-to-head games are the best hope. You're right: The math is starting to work against us now.

The way I see it, once the math suggests you have to play .600 if the leaders play .500, it's working against you. We're now talking about the Sox having to play .714 if the Twins play .500. That's really, really hard to do. I would highly suggest the Sox win the next 8 games.

SluggersAway
09-16-2006, 10:36 PM
If KW put it that way, and if JR was on board with it (and I can't imagine him not being supportive), I think Frank would have signed on the spot.

Brilliant Frater.

Frank signed an incentive-laden deal with Oakland, he obviously would've signed one with the returning champs for a try at the repeat in a uniform he played in since his days in Auburn.

JB98
09-16-2006, 10:38 PM
Brilliant Frater.

Frank signed an incentive-laden deal with Oakland, he obviously would've signed one with the returning champs for a try at the repeat in a uniform he played in since his days in Auburn.

Oakland had an opening at DH. With the acquisition of Thome, the White Sox did not.

SoxxoS
09-16-2006, 10:40 PM
Mark my words...this will go down as the stupidest post in the history of WSI...

Greg-
I have contributed a lot more over the years at WSI to take crap from a 125 post new poster.

I am sick of everyone saying its "over" and whine...and then if we break off a 7 game win streak those people will be right back with their dancing bananas and crap.

And if you were talking about the "germans bombed pearl harbor" line and you haven't seen animal house, then I just feel sorry for you.

CLR01
09-16-2006, 10:42 PM
Did I miss something? Were the Sox eliminated today?

I'm starting to think that everyone who believes that should stay away from here until the real off season.

So, here's the new game of "what if":

If the Tigers go .500 for the last 14 games, they'll be 96-66. The Sox would have to go 12-2 to catch them.

If the Twins go .500 for the last 14 games, they'll be 94-68. The Sox would have to go 10-4 to catch them.

There is not one shred of evidence that suggests the Sox can go 10-4. At this point, there is only hope they'll do that, although my guess is the Sox will have to go at least 12-2 to get in even as the WC.


Where's the evidence that a team that is 19-24, 12-23 and 6-8 over their last 43, 35 and 14 games can go .500?

JB98
09-16-2006, 10:43 PM
Greg-
I have contributed a lot more over the years at WSI to take crap from a 125 post new poster.

I am sick of everyone saying its "over" and whine...and then if we break off a 7 game win streak those people will be right back with their dancing bananas and crap.

And if you were talking about the "germans bombed pearl harbor" line and you haven't seen animal house, then I just feel sorry for you.

I'm still here with my dancing bananas and crap. And I'm with you. It isn't over. It's going to be tough now, sure, but it isn't over.

:supernana: :supernana: :supernana: :)

JB98
09-16-2006, 10:45 PM
Where's the evidence that a team that is 19-24, 12-23 and 6-8 over their last 43, 35 and 14 games can go .500?

They have six games left with the Royals. <shudders> Detroit is 11-1 against Kansas City this year. We have to kick the Tigers ass ourselves.

samram
09-16-2006, 10:53 PM
Where's the evidence that a team that is 19-24, 12-23 and 6-8 over their last 43, 35 and 14 games can go .500?

Ok, so let's say they go 6-8 over the remaining 14. The Sox have to go 11-3. Hell, if they go 4-10, the Sox have to go 9-5. Just admit that you believe the Sox will make the playoffs as opposed to think they'll make it. I haven't given up hope and I'll watch every game the rest of the way, but I can't look at the above scenarios and delude myself into thinking the Sox are a good bet to make it.

Lip Man 1
09-16-2006, 11:00 PM
For what it's worth:

According to Mark Gonzales' story tonight in the Tribune, Ozzie has banned any players from watching football in the clubhouse tomorrow.

My comment is that's nice, but why the hell wasn't he kicking over chairs and tables back in July when this crap started? Why wasn't he calling out players for lackadasical performance (Juan Uribe step forward please...) To me it's far to little, far to late.

Also Mark says the 'tentative' 2007 Oakland schedule has the Sox making not one, but two trips to the 'House of Death' next season. In April and in August.

Nice...

Lip

Foulke You
09-16-2006, 11:01 PM
That's 12 blown games this season (where the Sox took a lead into the 7th inning or later.) 9 are the direct responsibility of the bullpen. Six of those nine took place on or before June 1st.

I sincerely hope Kenny is a little more aggresive this off season in fixing a major problem... one that the Boone Logan's, Javier Lopez's and the other castoff's he signed this past off season couldn't solve.

Lip
I think the bullpen's troubles this season can be blamed on the inability of Neal Cotts and Cliff Politte to perform. Also, counting on Hermanson to remain healthy was a fatal error in judgment on KW's part in planning the '06 bullpen. Here you had 3 key cogs to the World Champion '05 team that suddenly couldn't be counted on to get those all important 6th, 7th, and 8th inning outs. Kenny had to patch the holes midseason with Riske and MacDougal and only the latter having a positive impact. I think he has learned his lesson and next year he will be more proactive on the free agent market for relievers.

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 11:03 PM
For what it's worth:

According to Mark Gonzales' story tonight in the Tribune, Ozzie has banned any players from watching football in the clubhouse tomorrow.

My comment is that's nice, but why the hell wasn't he kicking over chairs and tables back in July when this crap started? Why wasn't he calling out players for lackadasical performance (Juan Uribe step forward please...) To me it's far to little, far to late.

Also Mark says the 'tentative' 2007 Oakland schedule has the Sox making not one, but two trips to the 'House of Death' next season. In April and in August.

Nice...

Lip

Not exactly your waited-for eruption from Mt. Ozzie. Maybe KW will do something instead. I doubt it, though.

Unless he's working on your Ichiro deal as we speak.

So far, Pods has "shrugged" his way through a crowd of reporters and Ozzie is mad about no beer.

SluggersAway
09-16-2006, 11:06 PM
To me it's far to little, far to late.


"Far too little, far too late."

A great, and very appropriate quote that deserves better spelling.

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 11:06 PM
I think the bullpen's troubles this season can be blamed on the inability of Neal Cotts and Cliff Politte to perform. Also, counting on Hermanson to remain healthy was a fatal error in judgment on KW's part in planning the '06 bullpen. Here you had 3 key cogs to the World Champion '05 team that suddenly couldn't be counted on to get those all important 6th, 7th, and 8th inning outs. Kenny had to patch the holes midseason with Riske and MacDougal and only the latter having a positive impact. I think he has learned his lesson and next year he will be more proactive on the free agent market for relievers.

The Nelson move was one of desperation, but I don't think he counted on Hermanson at any point. He went out and got Riske as well.

I don't think that has anything to do with the problem now. Jenks and MacDougal are hurting and we might not see another Sox bullpen (statistically) like this one for another five or ten years.

KW could go out and spend $20 million per season on a combo like Howry and Eyre and it still wouldn't shore up the last 3 spots in the pen.

We already have Jenks, Thornton and Mac, who will be the only "expensive" reliever. We need to go out and find a couple more....I'm not overly excited about Logan, Cotts, Tracey, Montero, Haeger or anyone else right now.

CLR01
09-16-2006, 11:06 PM
They have six games left with the Royals. <shudders> Detroit is 11-1 against Kansas City this year. We have to kick the Tigers ass ourselves.



:cheers: Here's to hoping that the KC Royals that are 9-5 in September and 15-12 and 20-17 over their last 27 and 37 games is the one the Tigers have to face and not the ****ty one they last faced in July.

HotelWhiteSox
09-16-2006, 11:08 PM
Weird thing is that coming into this series we had a better record than the A's, we're stuck in 3rd, and they have a 5 game lead.

Not over yet, but whatever. Ozzie has puzzled me lately. Is the beer thing his version of distracting attention to himself like last year's 'I'll retire if we win the WS' and this year's attack on Mariotti? I think the sensitivity training might have worked against the Sox

soxwon
09-16-2006, 11:14 PM
Unless a miracle happens, even if we sweep detroit
we are virtually done.
but you never know, anything could happpen
its gonna be a long two weeks

MrX
09-16-2006, 11:41 PM
I think the bullpen's troubles this season can be blamed on the inability of Neal Cotts and Cliff Politte to perform. Also, counting on Hermanson to remain healthy was a fatal error in judgment on KW's part in planning the '06 bullpen. Here you had 3 key cogs to the World Champion '05 team that suddenly couldn't be counted on to get those all important 6th, 7th, and 8th inning outs. Kenny had to patch the holes midseason with Riske and MacDougal and only the latter having a positive impact. I think he has learned his lesson and next year he will be more proactive on the free agent market for relievers.
Last season the starters pitched those 6th and 7th innings leaving the BP the 8th and then Hermanson/Jenks the 9th.

This year they've had way to many games where the starters don't even make it out of the 5th.

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 11:44 PM
Last season the starters pitched those 6th and 7th innings leaving the BP the 8th and then Hermanson/Jenks the 9th.

This year they've had way to many games where the starters don't even make it out of the 5th.

You forgot Politte and Cotts. All four of those guys were nails for almost the entire season.

BeviBall!
09-16-2006, 11:50 PM
You know what I realized this afternoon? I, like many of you, have thought that this was the most inconsistent Sox team we've ever seen. Then, I remembered that in almost every game there's a bad misplay in the outfield, bad base running, next to no clutch hitting and bullpen meltdowns. I guess we are consistent after all.

It ain't over 'til it's over, but it's damn close. The priest is on his way over to the hospital now... lets all hope he gets lost as we try to figure this out in the next 14 games.

PalehosePlanet
09-17-2006, 12:11 AM
[quote=Frater Perdurabo;1350535] I'm half-joking, but I'm very pissed at Ozzie for continuing to play Mackowiak in CF (I'm sure Anderson will be back on the bench tomorrow). I'm also pissed at Ozzie for his gross mismanagement of the bullpen.

quote]

I agree. Macdougal hadn't pitched in a week due to shoulder and back soreness, so why put him in with runners on base? Matt had already struck out Mark Ellis so why yank him when Scutaro is up? Aren't Ellis and Scutaro the EXACT same hitter???? Jeeez!!!! And if that isn't bad enough, while we're still in the game at 5-4 he brings in Boone friggin' Logan. ***? Who here did not know that Logan would walk the lefty? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Oh and Mackowiak in CF has cost us anywhere from .20 to .40 in team ERA and anywhere from 3 to 5 games.

Brewski
09-17-2006, 12:23 AM
Just FYI, Vegas had us as betting underdogs in every game on this trip. Sunday is no exception. (We really have played poorly since the break.)

thomas35forever
09-17-2006, 12:36 AM
I think our pen wants to pull the plug on this season. Sad, but most likely true. It's not fair to the other players on the team. There's almost nobody left in the bullpen from last season except for Cotts and Jenks. They don't know what it's like to be a champion. That's all I have to say.

SluggersAway
09-17-2006, 12:37 AM
Just FYI, Vegas had us as betting underdogs in every game on this trip. Sunday is no exception. (We really have played poorly since the break.)

Again, dark cloud or kool-aid, who is the more rational?

BanditJimmy
09-17-2006, 12:37 AM
I think all the people that said "This season is over" and we are dead and all that other crap should be remembered...so in 2 weeks when we go into Minny and sweep, then they can be banned for being fairweather.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?



Why is this not in teal?

soxfanreggie
09-17-2006, 12:53 AM
I believe Hermanson is around from last season. I also think McCarthy has a ring...not as a reliever though.

Grzegorz
09-17-2006, 06:50 AM
Frater:

Figure a third of the roster will be gone. That's eight or nine new faces.

Lip

Lip how do this roster turnover occuring? Possibly by trading current players in packages, eating salaries, or possibly trading some minor league talent?

For what it's worth:

According to Mark Gonzales' story tonight in the Tribune, Ozzie has banned any players from watching football in the clubhouse tomorrow.

My comment is that's nice, but why the hell wasn't he kicking over chairs and tables back in July when this crap started? Why wasn't he calling out players for lackadasical performance (Juan Uribe step forward please...) To me it's far to little, far to late.

Also Mark says the 'tentative' 2007 Oakland schedule has the Sox making not one, but two trips to the 'House of Death' next season. In April and in August.

Lip

Banning football in the locker room is the best Ozzie can do after this loss?

Lip, histrionics will not motivate adults; if they're dead from the neck up dump them.

My question to Ozzie and KW would be given the success of 2005 through the application of speed, defense, and pitching why in 2006 has this philosophy been abandoned? Can Pods be blamed for all of this teams woes? Why have one guy be the lynchpin of the team when it comes to applying philosophy employed in 2005 especially when that individual is coming off double hernia surgery?

As for going to Oakland maybe the White Sox can hire a Psychologist to help them over the mental block of playing in Oakland.

Maybe the Psychologist will give the White Sox a two-for-one deal throwing in sessions on how to beat Johan Santana... :D:

Law11
09-17-2006, 09:10 AM
It ain't over yet. I know it dosen't look real good right now but if they go take care of business against the Twins and Tigers they can do it.

and what gives you any idea that this team can win those games...
we havent won 3 straight since end of August. Why start now..

This season is on life support and the doctors are eyeing the plug..
If the plug gets pulled this week its been a hell of a ride..

samram
09-17-2006, 09:17 AM
Lip, histrionics will not motivate adults; if they're dead from the neck up dump them.

Agreed. If there are players who need to be motivated for games on September 17th in the midst of a pennant race, they shouldn't be there. There's nothing that's going to change them.

wsoxfan111
09-17-2006, 09:49 AM
I think all the people that said "This season is over" and we are dead and all that other crap should be remembered...so in 2 weeks when we go into Minny and sweep, then they can be banned for being fairweather.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?


I like your faith

Today is a must win, we cannot get swept.

We also MUST sweep Detroit in order to have a chance for the division.

We just have to be 1.5 games out (or better) when we head to Minny-Ha-Ha

Jurr
09-17-2006, 09:56 AM
Well, we won in 2005!

The many posts I have read over the years stating "If we just get one, I'll die a happy man/woman" are about to be tested.

This team has played sub .500 ball since July. Period. September, the "crunch time", has yielded a 6-9 record so far.

Friends know when to say when. There is still a chance, but it's going to be decided the next four days. The Sox must depart from Oakland with a win, followed by three straight against Detroit. Otherwise, you can cancel the post season show.

oldcomiskey
09-17-2006, 11:09 AM
It is said that pride comes before the fall.

Ozzie's pride regarding making the ****ing lineups (Mackowiak in CF) has cost the Sox a great deal this year. Ozzie's pride regarding his incessant lefty/righty matchups in the bullpen has cost the Sox this year. And despite his moves that for the most part have worked out well, it's now apparent that KW's pride regarding Frank Thomas has cost the Sox dearly.

maybe if we could actually bunt a damn runner over every once in a while--and I'm not just talking about today. maybe if everybody stopped swinging for the fences ala 2003, we wouldn't be in this position. I know the bullpen has sucked lately, but to blame ozzie for that is not right

cheezheadsoxfan
09-17-2006, 11:48 AM
Well, we won in 2005!

The many posts I have read over the years stating "If we just get one, I'll die a happy man/woman" are about to be tested.

This team has played sub .500 ball since July. Period. September, the "crunch time", has yielded a 6-9 record so far.

Friends know when to say when. There is still a chance, but it's going to be decided the next four days. The Sox must depart from Oakland with a win, followed by three straight against Detroit. Otherwise, you can cancel the post season show.

I'm solidly in the "just one....die happy" camp. Not that I'didn't expect better this year and of course am disappointed, but a hell of a lot of baseball fans never get that "just one".

caulfield12
09-17-2006, 11:49 AM
I like your faith

Today is a must win, we cannot get swept.

We also MUST sweep Detroit in order to have a chance for the division.

We just have to be 1.5 games out (or better) when we head to Minny-Ha-Ha

It's not going to be a "half" game. We'll have played the same number, barring any rainouts between now and then.

It has to be one or less. Unless we're expecting to beat Santana for the first time there...even our manager doesn't expect us to sweep them, so how could our team think they would do it when their own manager doesn't believe they're capable of it?

batmanZoSo
09-17-2006, 11:55 AM
Sox Tragic Number is 12.

:rolling:

35th&Shields
09-17-2006, 12:11 PM
Well, the past two games have moved me from "I am confident the Sox will earn a playoff spot (say 60%)" to "The White Sox are in it but a playoff spot is not probable (say 33%)" mainly because the bullpen doesn't look like it will hold up the rest of the stretch.

I'm with you. The standard in court is a preponderance of the evidence, or, "more probably true than not true." If I was on a jury right now, I'd have to say that it is more probably true that the White Sox will not make the playoffs that it is true that they will make the playoffs. It kills me to say that. Doesn't mean it won't happen, but the Division is basically out of reach and its an uphill climb to catch the Twins.

soxjim
09-17-2006, 12:20 PM
The bottom line is we need to win ball games not give them away. True I watch the scoreboard and hope for the best. However, the SOX put themselves in this position by inconsistant play and not hitting on all cylinders at all times. What the twins and tigers do shouldn't make a difference but now it does.

Lip Man 1
09-17-2006, 01:34 PM
Gregz:

As you described. Guys will be released, trades will be made, minor league players will be moved and Kenny will turn over the roster. If he could do it after a world championship he damn sure will do it after a 90 win season with a 100 million dollar payroll.

Regarding 'histrionics.' Sometimes that's the only way to get the attention of 'professionals' who have to play a mind boggling 162 game season.

What Ozzie could have done instead of saying four times in published stories to the newspapers this season about how bad the club is in fundamentals was start benching guys for failing to execute his moves (since you can't fine them like in the days of Eddie Stanky) and order mandatory extra practice in whatever area is needed for the rest of the season.

Talk is cheap, actions speak louder then words.

Lip

kitekrazy
09-17-2006, 01:41 PM
Gregz:


What Ozzie could have done instead of saying four times in published stories to the newspapers this season about how bad the club is in fundamentals was start benching guys for failing to execute his moves (since you can't fine them like in the days of Eddie Stanky) and order mandatory extra practice in whatever area is needed for the rest of the season.

Talk is cheap, actions speak louder then words.

Lip

There's only 25 guys. You can't bench all of them.

Lip Man 1
09-17-2006, 01:46 PM
You can make an 'example' out of the worst offenders can't you?

Lip

vegyrex
09-17-2006, 02:01 PM
Things don't look to good. I know we still have a chance but how realistic is that? Considering our relieve pitchers have been so generous in giving up hits, walks and runs, not very realistic at all. :(:

TomBradley72
09-17-2006, 02:06 PM
You can make an 'example' out of the worst offenders can't you?

Lip

Ozzie has lost his "center" as a manager....much like Manuel did at the end of his tenure. Last year was "grind it out"...this year you never hear that message. Last year was all about defense..this year we have Mac in CF. Last year was starters going deep into games (7th+)..this year he has the quick hook to go to a medicore bullpen (ie. yesterday).

MadetoOrta
09-17-2006, 02:17 PM
Well, we won in 2005!

The many posts I have read over the years stating "If we just get one, I'll die a happy man/woman" are about to be tested.

This team has played sub .500 ball since July. Period. September, the "crunch time", has yielded a 6-9 record so far.

Friends know when to say when. There is still a chance, but it's going to be decided the next four days. The Sox must depart from Oakland with a win, followed by three straight against Detroit. Otherwise, you can cancel the post season show.

I remain ecstatic about 2005. What bothers me most is how lethargic and uninspired this team has played most of the year. Yes, it's corpseball again. We either win 12-1 or lose 4-1. The wins in Anaheim last week felt like 2005. Has anyone read or heard anyone say anything about "defending our title!"? I haven't. I could go on about the similarities between Guillen and Ditka just before he was fired but I'll wait 'til the postseason.

The fact that we're playing at KC's level since July 1st really concerns me for 2007. Either Guillen's got to go or those not buying Ozzie's schtick need to go.

I'm not going to jump off a bridge [I may have last year if we didn't make the postseason] but I am thoroughly disappointed. Does anyone know the last time a World Series champ followed up the next season not making the playoffs?

caulfield12
09-17-2006, 02:22 PM
I remain ecstatic about 2005. What bothers me most is how lethargic and uninspired this team has played most of the year. Yes, it's corpseball again. We either win 12-1 or lose 4-1. The wins in Anaheim last week felt like 2005. Has anyone read or heard anyone say anything about "defending our title!"? I haven't. I could go on about the similarities between Guillen and Ditka just before he was fired but I'll wait 'til the postseason.

The fact that we're playing at KC's level since July 1st really concerns me for 2007. Either Guillen's got to go or those not buying Ozzie's schtick need to go.

I'm not going to jump off a bridge [I may have last year if we didn't make the postseason] but I am thoroughly disappointed. Does anyone know the last time a World Series champ followed up the next season not making the playoffs?

2003 Angels were not even close to making it.

palehozenychicty
09-17-2006, 02:23 PM
I remain ecstatic about 2005. What bothers me most is how lethargic and uninspired this team has played most of the year. Yes, it's corpseball again. We either win 12-1 or lose 4-1. The wins in Anaheim last week felt like 2005. Has anyone read or heard anyone say anything about "defending our title!"? I haven't. I could go on about the similarities between Guillen and Ditka just before he was fired but I'll wait 'til the postseason.

The fact that we're playing at KC's level since July 1st really concerns me for 2007. Either Guillen's got to go or those not buying Ozzie's schtick need to go.

I'm not going to jump off a bridge [I may have last year if we didn't make the postseason] but I am thoroughly disappointed. Does anyone know the last time a World Series champ followed up the next season not making the playoffs?

Angels didn't make it in 2003 and the Fish didn't make it after upping payroll in 2004.

caulfield12
09-17-2006, 02:28 PM
Angels didn't make it in 2003 and the Fish didn't make it after upping payroll in 2004.

They didn't tear the team apart like they did under Huizenga, but "upping payroll" didn't mean as much because they started relatively low.

They did let a number of their key players go from that team.

I don't think most pundits picked them first in their division coming into 04.

palehozenychicty
09-17-2006, 02:34 PM
They didn't tear the team apart like they did under Huizenga, but "upping payroll" didn't mean as much because they started relatively low.

They did let a number of their key players go from that team.

I don't think most pundits picked them first in their division coming into 04.

Yes, they did let key players walk e.g. I-Roid, Lee, but they replaced them with capable players e.g. Lo Duca. They just didn't have the same karma.

kitekrazy
09-17-2006, 02:44 PM
You can make an 'example' out of the worst offenders can't you?

Lip

Yeah but that can be on the average 2-3 guys. Cintron can't play 2nd and short when Gooch and Uribe act like boneheads.

You're also screwed with the bullpen.

kitekrazy
09-17-2006, 02:45 PM
2003 Angels were not even close to making it.

The jury is still out on this team as well.

Lip Man 1
09-17-2006, 07:43 PM
The Marlins turned this 'trick' twice and so did the Angels since division play went into three's with the wild card.

Lip

batmanZoSo
09-17-2006, 07:50 PM
The Marlins turned this 'trick' twice and so did the Angels since division play went into three's with the wild card.

Lip

The 2003 Angels were terrible--77-85. The 04 and 98 Marlins were pretty brutal as well. We're in a tough division, though this is still probably a 90 win team, which is really nothing to be ashamed about in the grand scheme of things.

ode to veeck
09-18-2006, 10:32 AM
I guess it's kinda poetic justice that Frank ends our season :whiner:

More like epic stupidity, *** were they pitching to him in that situation yesterday and the day before for that matter?!? Chavez's numbers with runners on or two strikes are pathetic and we should know Frank better than anyone.

southside rocks
09-18-2006, 10:49 AM
More like epic stupidity, *** were they pitching to him in that situation yesterday and the day before for that matter?!? Chavez's numbers with runners on or two strikes are pathetic and we should know Frank better than anyone.

Yeah, that was a BAD decision, to pitch to Frank.

In that one, I really think that Ozzie's emotions might have gotten the better of his managerial instincts. :?:

spiffie
09-18-2006, 11:18 AM
Well, we won in 2005!

The many posts I have read over the years stating "If we just get one, I'll die a happy man/woman" are about to be tested.
Personally I know that while I am disappointed, this year isn't hurting me nearly as badly as 2003, 2000, 1993, etc. I wish like hell they had been able to put together a big run, and I still hope they run the table from now until the end and get into the postseason. But if/when they get eliminated, I am not going to be kicking things and getting pissed. They've given me a hell of a 2 year run, and some of the best moments of my life. If it all ends on Oct. 1, well, then I can start waiting until next year. And I have no reason to believe we won't be right in the thick of it again next season.

Baby Fisk
09-18-2006, 11:27 AM
Personally I know that while I am disappointed, this year isn't hurting me nearly as badly as 2003, 2000, 1993, etc. I wish like hell they had been able to put together a big run, and I still hope they run the table from now until the end and get into the postseason. But if/when they get eliminated, I am not going to be kicking things and getting pissed. They've given me a hell of a 2 year run, and some of the best moments of my life. If it all ends on Oct. 1, well, then I can start waiting until next year. And I have no reason to believe we won't be right in the thick of it again next season.
Well put. :nod:

stl_sox_fan
09-18-2006, 11:36 AM
Personally I know that while I am disappointed, this year isn't hurting me nearly as badly as 2003, 2000, 1993, etc. I wish like hell they had been able to put together a big run, and I still hope they run the table from now until the end and get into the postseason. But if/when they get eliminated, I am not going to be kicking things and getting pissed. They've given me a hell of a 2 year run, and some of the best moments of my life. If it all ends on Oct. 1, well, then I can start waiting until next year. And I have no reason to believe we won't be right in the thick of it again next season.

For once a Chicago fan can say "wait until next year" and it not be an empty statement. :D:

Vernam
09-18-2006, 11:56 AM
Ozzie has lost his "center" as a manager....much like Manuel did at the end of his tenure. Last year was "grind it out"...this year you never hear that message. Last year was all about defense..this year we have Mac in CF. Last year was starters going deep into games (7th+)..this year he has the quick hook to go to a medicore bullpen (ie. yesterday).That's an interesting assertion. At some point he -- or at least, certain players -- stopped pursuing grinder ball. His tirade in Toronto was an early warning that they had veered away from what won the championship in 2005. I'd say it's a case of some key players either not responding or trying but failing to respond to his prodding on fundamentals.

The first-half record fooled them into thinking they had the pitching and hitting to play longball. It's fair to say that is Ozzie's fault, ultimately. The other alternative is to conclude he's lost the team -- which I don't think he has. But I don't believe Ozzie has permanently lost sight of what made them great last year, and changes next off-season will probably bear that out.

Still, if the pitching had held up, we'd all be woofing about how potent this offense is. But the pitching faltered until recently, and surprise: There were a whole lot of games where the ability to scratch out a run would have come in handy, even if the final score was 7-6 instead of 2-1 like last year. The maddening thing is, it all might have worked out okay if our bats hadn't gone cold recently. Hell, it still might work out. I guarantee no one wants to face the Sox in October, the way our starting pitchers have come around.

Vernam

nysox35
09-18-2006, 12:03 PM
The maddening thing is, it all might have worked out okay if our bats hadn't gone cold recently. Hell, it still might work out. I guarantee no one wants to face the Sox in October, the way our starting pitchers have come around.

Vernam

Absolutely correct. I went to the NYY/Bos game last night and on the subway, people were talking about how Oak swept the Sox. One guy goes, good, they scare me with that pitching. I want them gone.

Palehose13
09-18-2006, 12:27 PM
For what it's worth:

According to Mark Gonzales' story tonight in the Tribune, Ozzie has banned any players from watching football in the clubhouse tomorrow.

My comment is that's nice, but why the hell wasn't he kicking over chairs and tables back in July when this crap started? Why wasn't he calling out players for lackadasical performance (Juan Uribe step forward please...) To me it's far to little, far to late.

Lip

:dunno: Maybe because there aren't any football games in July? :cool:

Lip Man 1
09-18-2006, 01:43 PM
Sure they have football games in July.

The CFL baby!

:cool:

Lip

TDog
09-19-2006, 12:27 AM
Angels didn't make it in 2003 and the Fish didn't make it after upping payroll in 2004.


People who used to read The Sporting News in the 1970s may read the following as a Leonard Koppett impression. May the Hall of Fame sportswriter rest in peace.

Actually, the Toronto Blue Jays, which won the World Series in 1993 in the two-division-in-each-league setup, failed to make the postseason in 1995, the first year of the expanded playoffs, there being no postseason in 1994. Some people believe the White Sox would have won the World Series in 1994, but even if you subscribe to that fairy tale, it doesn't put the White Sox in the expanded postseason of 1995.

This will be the 12th season of the two-round league playoffs. The Jays, Marlins, Marlins, Angles and (barring divine intervention) White Sox didn't make the postseason the following year. That means that in the expanded format where more teams can make the postseason, the World Series champ has failed to make it about 42 percent of the time.

While three franchises are responsible for not returning, only four franchises -- the Yankees, Braves, Diamonbacks and Red Sox -- returned to the postseason in the expanded format. The Diamonbacks and Red Sox were eliminated in the first round after their Series win, so more than half the World Series champs failed to make it to the following year's league championship series.

Only the Yankees and Braves returned to the Series after winning it. The Yankees haven't won it since 2000. The Braves haven't won it since 1995.

The White Sox falling short this summer seems more trend than an anomaly.

BadBobbyJenks
09-19-2006, 12:39 AM
Well Im going to pop in a world series DVD finish off the rest of the miller light and cry myself to sleep....05 was something special and this season does nothing to taint what we did last year