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JUribe1989
09-15-2006, 08:56 PM
My sometimes moronic friend was listening to the radio today, and claimed to hear that KW said that he would go after Michael Young in the offseason. Now, I don't think it makes any sense because you wouldn't say that in the heat of a pennant race when you already have two SS's and KW is often flying under the radar. Did anyone else hear this, or is it just more stupidity (rumor) on my friend's part?

drewcifer
09-15-2006, 09:15 PM
Pure Genius. I love the idea. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1347017#post1347017)

Didn't hear it being talked about, though.
(http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1347017#post1347017)

Whitesox4ever
09-15-2006, 09:21 PM
from today tribune


Williams always has aimed high and the Sox could try for Texas' Michael Young, especially after owner Tom Hicks put the majority of the blame on the players for their decline.

Young is a favorite of Guillen, though he doesn't possess blazing speed, and his $3.5 million salary for 2007 is a big bargain. It's probably too good for Texas to move.

samram
09-16-2006, 01:28 AM
My sometimes moronic friend was listening to the radio today, and claimed to hear that KW said that he would go after Michael Young in the offseason. Now, I don't think it makes any sense because you wouldn't say that in the heat of a pennant race when you already have two SS's and KW is often flying under the radar. Did anyone else hear this, or is it just more stupidity (rumor) on my friend's part?

That's very good that your friend found chicagosports.com.

DumpJerry
09-16-2006, 02:10 AM
Uribe has pretty much punched his ticket out of town this year. Too many swings at first pitches, too many times running out to Center when BA is the one to get the fly.

No fundamentals=no play for Ozzie.

TheOldRoman
09-16-2006, 04:01 AM
Uribe has pretty much punched his ticket out of town this year. Too many swings at first pitches, too many times running out to Center when BA is the one to get the fly.

No fundamentals=no play for Ozzie.
But he did such a good job yesterday of throwing that DP ball into the ground so the runner beat it out, allowing a run to score.

CLR01
09-16-2006, 04:20 AM
Your friends is probably talking out of his ass. I believe KW discussing which FA's he is going after before the signing period would be a violation of MLB's tamering rules.

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 07:02 AM
But he did such a good job yesterday of throwing that DP ball into the ground so the runner beat it out, allowing a run to score.

I'm pretty sure Payton had it beat one way or the other.

And we got really lucky that Bartlett didn't complete the same throw in CLE or Garko would have been out at 1B and the Twins probably would have gone on to win after escaping bases loaded and only one out in the bottom of the 10th.

Of course, if you don't have Cotts and McCarthy conspiring to kill 75% of the middle relief innings over the last three weeks, we'd also be looking a lot better. McCarthy has done a lot more damage than Uribe to our chances.

jenn2080
09-16-2006, 02:31 PM
My sometimes moronic friend was listening to the radio today, and claimed to hear that KW said that he would go after Michael Young in the offseason. Now, I don't think it makes any sense because you wouldn't say that in the heat of a pennant race when you already have two SS's and KW is often flying under the radar. Did anyone else hear this, or is it just more stupidity (rumor) on my friend's part?


did they hear that in the airport?

i love threads that are repeated. MULTIPLE TIMES!!!

pudge
09-16-2006, 04:07 PM
This is exactly why I was not a fan of Mark Gonzalez spouting his random opinion on next season at this point in time - it serves no purpose but to create idiotic speculation such as this poster's friend's.

Jjav829
09-16-2006, 04:56 PM
My sometimes moronic friend was listening to the radio today, and claimed to hear that KW said that he would go after Michael Young in the offseason. Now, I don't think it makes any sense because you wouldn't say that in the heat of a pennant race when you already have two SS's and KW is often flying under the radar. Did anyone else hear this, or is it just more stupidity (rumor) on my friend's part?

Stupidity on your friend's part. Or more likely, he is uninformed and heard something about Young and just created his own rumor.

I don't doubt that KW would go after Young, however. Ozzie loves Michael Young as a player. If the Rangers would consider trading him, I'm sure Kenny would try to make a deal.

Flight #24
09-16-2006, 05:06 PM
Stupidity on your friend's part. Or more likely, he is uninformed and heard something about Young and just created his own rumor.

I don't doubt that KW would go after Young, however. Ozzie loves Michael Young as a player. If the Rangers would consider trading him, I'm sure Kenny would try to make a deal.

This is one of the few scenarios where I could see Crede being dealt. Crede for Young is the starting point of a decent deal for both sides. If kenny could do that and get a good pitching prospect in return, I'd consider it. Not sure I'd do it, but that would get my attention at least.

Frater Perdurabo
09-16-2006, 07:25 PM
Young may not be quite as good defensively as Uribe, but Young plays hard on every play, unlike Uribe, who moves in and out of "hustle" mode. Young also is incredibly clutch at the plate and is a fantastic teammate.

I would give up Konerko, Uribe and Garcia for Young. The Rangers would get back a shortstop, a starting pitcher that they covet, and a first baseman that would allow them to move Teixeira to third base (where he played in college), which would make Blalock expendable in trade for pitching.

For the Sox, Young would replace Konerko's production but higher in the order with fewer homers, more doubles, higher average and better speed. First base would be opened for a Gload/Fields platoon, which combined would produce far better average and better speed with at least equal power in the 8 spot compared to Uribe (Fields could get additional ABs backing up Crede). Combined with learning to lead off during winter ball, the Sox would have room to put Sweeney in left and bat ninth. An order of Anderson-Young-Thome-Dye-Crede-AJ-Iguchi-Gload/Fields-Sweeney would be better equipped to play "Ozzie ball" while still having very respectable power. That's also a better defensive team.

The resulting significant payroll savings would allow the Sox to sign Crede and Buehrle long-term, sign another starter (if McCarthy is deemed unsuitable) and add needed bullpen help.

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 08:20 PM
A little like the Carlos Lee trade...although we would be giving up more talent.

They really would need to trade McCarthy, Crede or Konerko (unless they give away Sweeney, Fields AND Broadway) to get some of these huge names back everyone is speculating about.

I think Young's cheap contract and Konerko's status as captain work against this, unfortunately.

Of course, it would also look horrible in hindsight if McCarthy foundered and we didn't have anyone else to go to as a starter. But the "insurance" for the starters hasn't paid off this season, that's for sure.

Frater Perdurabo
09-16-2006, 09:26 PM
A little like the Carlos Lee trade...although we would be giving up more talent.

EXACTLY. Yes, with my proposal the Sox are giving up more talent, but they also would be shedding a ton of payroll ($9 million for Garcia, $12 million for Paulie, $5 million for Uribe = $26 million) that could be plowed back into the team.

Paulie is the only hitter on the Sox with real trade value who at the same time is "expendable." (Crede, Dye, Iguchi and Anderson bring great defense in addition to their bats, Thome has value with his high OBP and lefty power, Pods has very little trade value now, and AJ has more value to the Sox than any other team.) Paulie brings considerable offensive skills, but little else, other than an ability to dig balls out of the dirt at first base. JMHO, but the captaincy/leadership issue for Paulie is overrated. (JMHO, but PK's captaincy has more to do with his tenure than any assumed "leadership skills.") Besides, Young's selfless play is as good as (or better than) anything that Paulie might bring in terms of "leadership." For those worried about media relations, Young is just as good with the media as Konerko, and Young has never, ever publicly ripped on a teammate. Never.

At the plate:
Young (more doubles, higher average, better speed) = Konerko (more homers)
Gload/Fields (better average, good speed) > Uribe (more Ks)
Net gain

In the field:
Young (hustle and desire to improve) = Uribe (slightly better range and arm)
Gload/Fields (more athletic) >/= Konerko (better at digging balls in the dirt)
Net wash or slight gain

On the books:
$26 million in payroll savings to be invested in Crede, Buehrle, Dye extensions and bullpen help and even a pitcher to replace Garcia if McCarthy falters.
Net gain

caulfield12
09-16-2006, 11:29 PM
Problems are the obvious ones....

Very little insurance for starting rotation (Haeger/Broadway)

If Sweeney, Anderson or Gload/Fields don't get it done, we're in real trouble.

Who would we go to then?

Rogowski?
Jerry Owens?
Ozuna?
Mackowiak?

As much as I like them as bench players, I don't see an Ozuna/Mack platoon in LF leading us anywhere north of the .500 mark.

We'd end up weakening our existing roster for a marquee name or we would have to bring in a veteran in mid-year on the cheap...like a Dmitri Young, Matt Stairs or Reggie Sanders type.

JorgeFabregas
09-16-2006, 11:35 PM
Young is not Konerko's equal at the plate. Konerko's career OPS is about 50 points higher (not to mention about 100 points higher two out of the last three years). Uribe is the better shortstop over the course of his career, averaging roughly an extra half putout per game, but their defensive years have been nearly identical in 2006.

I'm not saying that proposed trade wouldn't be good (given the savings), but I don't think your analysis is completely fair.

Frater Perdurabo
09-16-2006, 11:43 PM
Young is not Konerko's equal at the plate. Konerko's career OPS is about 50 points higher (not to mention about 100 points higher two out of the last three years). Uribe is the better shortstop over the course of his career, averaging roughly an extra half putout per game, but their defensive years have been nearly identical in 2006.

I'm not saying that proposed trade wouldn't be good (given the savings), but I don't think your analysis is completely fair.

PK's been playing longer. He's a middle of the order power hitter at the peak of his career. He may stay at this level for a few years or he may start to decline. Michael Young is a top of the order hitter (#2 or perhaps #3 type) who has been improving steadily but significantly for five seasons. He has far better speed than PK. He's already won a batting title. He hits a lot more doubles (many of which would be homers at the Cell). Oh, and he's extremely good in the clutch.

JorgeFabregas
09-16-2006, 11:49 PM
Last year was Young's best year, so it's not really true that he's been improving every year.

Konerko is a few months older than Young, so they are pretty much at the same point in their careers. Konerko's clutch numbers are mostly the same as Young's this year.

Sox Fan 35
09-17-2006, 12:04 AM
Konerko is 30 and Young is 29. The last time I checked Paulie wasn't a bad clutch hitter either. I really like Young's game but that is just too much to give up.

buehrle4cy05
09-17-2006, 12:13 AM
Konerko is 30 and Young is 29. The last time I checked Paulie wasn't a bad clutch hitter either. I really like Young's game but that is just too much to give up.

Texas already has a slick-fielding first baseman (Paulie's most underrated skill) in Mark Teixeira, and I highly doubt that a team that needs pitching would be willing to take on the rest of Paulie's contract (I can't remember how it shakes out, but it would be more than $45 million for the next 4 years). Even if Garcia was involved in the deal, I doubt Texas would do it.

I think we could bait Texas with a package involving Javy, especially the way he has pitched down the stretch. Javy's younger than Freddy. Javy, Uribe, and a marginal prospect to Texas for Young could work if Texas misses out on the big free agent pitchers.

Jjav829
09-17-2006, 12:09 PM
Haha, are we already back to the "trade Konerko" talk?

Kenny and JR did not sign Konerko to a 5-year, $60 million deal to turn around and trade him the next season. Dye and Thome are more likely to be traded.

palehozenychicty
09-17-2006, 12:14 PM
Dye and Thome are more likely to be traded.

Dye's contract is the best bargain in baseball, and Thome's contract is almost unmoveable. NOBODY but the Sox went after Thome this past offseason.

Jjav829
09-17-2006, 12:25 PM
Dye's contract is the best bargain in baseball, and Thome's contract is almost unmoveable. NOBODY but the Sox went after Thome this past offseason.

Nobody else went after him because he had 3 big money years left and was coming off a season where he only played 59 games due to elbow and back injuries. Now he has proven that he can still hit, and only has 2 years left on his deal. The Sox also received a good chunk of that remaining money in the deal, so any team taking on Thome wouldn't have to pay the full $28 million, but more like half of that.

Dye is a huge bargain, but also only has one more year left before he will be looking to make good money.

Konerko is the youngest of the three and, as Kenny said, he wants to make sure this team doesn't get old. If Kenny decides he needs to move one of the big 3, and I don't know that he will, it won't be the youngest of the three that gets traded...

"It's not so much get younger, as not get aged," Williams said. "If you turn around one day and you have allowed your roster to become so veteran-oriented and aging, and then when you decide this isn't working—and it happens—it comes crashing down.

chaerulez
09-17-2006, 12:30 PM
I would be thrilled to see Michael Young in a Sox uniform, even if it means we have to part with Sweeney or Fields, two players I think will be at the least, good everday players.

palehozenychicty
09-17-2006, 12:42 PM
Now he has proven that he can still hit, and only has 2 years left on his deal. The Sox also received a good chunk of that remaining money in the deal, so any team taking on Thome wouldn't have to pay the full $28 million, but more like half of that.

Dye is a huge bargain, but also only has one more year left before he will be looking to make good money.

Konerko is the youngest of the three and, as Kenny said, he wants to make sure this team doesn't get old. If Kenny decides he needs to move one of the big 3, and I don't know that he will, it won't be the youngest of the three that gets traded...

True, Thome may drum up a little more interest this offseason due to his torrid first half, but he may need to play LESS for gaining maximum value. He has looked fatigued and injured most of the second half. Since Dye took less money to come to the Sox after Arizona offered a more lucrative package, he'll negotiate with KW for a good deal. I think the big three will be kept intact for at least one more year, with the top and bottom of the order changing dramatically.

Frater Perdurabo
09-17-2006, 05:38 PM
Kenny and JR did not sign Konerko to a 5-year, $60 million deal to turn around and trade him the next season. Dye and Thome are more likely to be traded.

I agree with you, but it's a shame. I respect what PK has done at the plate this year, but it's not insulting him to say he is slow and prone to rally-killing GIDPs. Konerko's contract will be an albatross in coming years. It's just too much to invest in a slow-footed, slugging first-baseman for that long of a period of time, even if Paulie keeps hitting .300 with 40 homers each year. I fear that the inflexibility such a contract causes might force the Sox to choose between extending Buehrle or extending Crede. And IMHO, Ozzie and KW are fools for thinking Paulie is a "leader;" his captaincy must be based on his longevity. Thome and Dye seems to be "better" clubhouse guys; at least they don't publicly criticize their teammates (as Konerko has done in the past).

Man Soo Lee
09-17-2006, 08:15 PM
I respect what PK has done at the plate this year, but it's not insulting him to say he is slow and prone to rally-killing GIDPs.

I bet you'll be surprised by one of the guys (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=mlb&season=2006&seasonType=2&sort=GIDPs&type=exp&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=all) that has hit into more double plays than Konerko.

Frater Perdurabo
09-17-2006, 08:25 PM
I bet you'll be surprised by one of the guys (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=mlb&season=2006&seasonType=2&sort=GIDPs&type=exp&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=all) that has hit into more double plays than Konerko.

Surprised, yes, but not so much when you consider Young has 89 more plate appearances and has played eight more games. He also has five more extra-base hits.

Also, thanks for linking to that page. I sorted the stats by all first-baseman and found that Paulie actually is 12th among MLB 1Bs in extra-base hits, behind even Nick Johnson, Richie Sexson and Lyle Overbay.

Paulie is fourth in average among MLB 1Bs and seventh in homers but tied for 14th (with Scott Hatteberg) in doubles. Also, his .927 OPS is nice, but it's ninth among all MLB 1Bs. He's 11th in walks and 8th in slugging. He's ninth in OBP. At least he has a stolen base.

So, as good of a season as he is having - and it is very, very good, does Paulie's production - in a career year - merit a $12 million/year "cornerstone" contract though 2010? Is that someone around whom the Sox should be constructing their team?

Meanwhile, Young leads the MLB in hits (tied with Ichiro), is fourth in doubles, and despite batting second for most of the year (while Paulie has batted the whole year as the #4 or #5 hitter - the true RBI spots in the lineup), has only 10 fewer RBI than Konerko does this year, all in a year when Konerko is having the best season of his career, and Young is not having the best season of his career.

Who would benefit the Sox more? Young or Konerko? I'd take Young, hands down, even if their salaries were equal.

MadetoOrta
09-17-2006, 08:59 PM
I'm a big fan of Paulie. If we get better in return, he gone. I like Michael Young too. Is it out of the realm of possibility we'll see Thome at first, JD at DH and Sweeney in right [with his cannon for an arm]? You can put JD in rightfield and Fields at DH too.

I don't want to see either Fields or Sweeney go. Young homegrown talent keeps the team competitive for years on end.

When do we start saving our money to go after Johan?:tongue:

beckett21
09-17-2006, 09:13 PM
Surprised, yes, but not so much when you consider Young has 89 more plate appearances and has played eight more games. He also has five more extra-base hits.

Also, thanks for linking to that page. I sorted the stats by all first-baseman and found that Paulie actually is 12th among MLB 1Bs in extra-base hits, behind even Nick Johnson, Richie Sexson and Lyle Overbay.

Paulie is fourth in average among MLB 1Bs and seventh in homers but tied for 14th (with Scott Hatteberg) in doubles. Also, his .927 OPS is nice, but it's ninth among all MLB 1Bs. He's 11th in walks and 8th in slugging. He's ninth in OBP. At least he has a stolen base.

So, as good of a season as he is having - and it is very, very good, does Paulie's production - in a career year - merit a $12 million/year "cornerstone" contract though 2010? Is that someone around whom the Sox should be constructing their team?

Meanwhile, Young leads the MLB in hits (tied with Ichiro), is fourth in doubles, and despite batting second for most of the year (while Paulie has batted the whole year as the #4 or #5 hitter - the true RBI spots in the lineup), has only 10 fewer RBI than Konerko does this year, all in a year when Konerko is having the best season of his career, and Young is not having the best season of his career.

Who would benefit the Sox more? Young or Konerko? I'd take Young, hands down, even if their salaries were equal.

Why do you keep insisting that the only way for the Sox to get Young is by trading Konerko? :?:

There's room for both of them.

Ol' No. 2
09-17-2006, 11:27 PM
Why do you keep insisting that the only way for the Sox to get Young is by trading Konerko? :?:

There's room for both of them.I was gonna say.....

Isn't PK, Garcia and Uribe a bit overpaying, even for Michael Young?

palehozenychicty
09-17-2006, 11:32 PM
I was gonna say.....

Isn't PK, Garcia and Uribe a bit overpaying, even for Michael Young?

Yeah. Garcia and Uribe should be enough. I do think Michael Young would make this team special again.

DaleJRFan
09-17-2006, 11:33 PM
I was gonna say.....

Isn't PK, Garcia and Uribe a bit overpaying, even for Michael Young?

The second question is, Why does everyone thing Michael Young is sooo awesome?? Because he hits for a high average? He has minimal power, doesn't walk and is pretty much the right-handed shortstop 500 AB version of Ross Gload.

And the third question is, Why is everyone suggesting that the Sox trade PK? What happened to his no trade clause?? I thought it was for the duration of his 5 year contract. Was it for only 2006?

palehozenychicty
09-17-2006, 11:39 PM
The second question is, Why does everyone thing Michael Young is sooo awesome?? Because he hits for a high average? He has minimal power, doesn't walk and is pretty much the right-handed shortstop 500 AB version of Ross Gload.
?

Because he's steadier than Mr. Horribe. We don't need power from the shortstop position, we need a steady professional, and Michael Young is that guy.

beckett21
09-17-2006, 11:43 PM
The second question is, Why does everyone thing Michael Young is sooo awesome?? Because he hits for a high average? He has minimal power, doesn't walk and is pretty much the right-handed shortstop 500 AB version of Ross Gload.

Michael Young is a talented, hard-nosed player. He's had 200 hits in each of the last four season. If you'll pardon the term, he is a 'grinder'. He would be a good fit IMO.

And the third question is, Why is everyone suggesting that the Sox trade PK? What happened to his no trade clause?? I thought it was for the duration of his 5 year contract. Was it for only 2006?
Not everyone is. I think it would be crazy to trade Konerko right now.

Jjav829
09-18-2006, 12:14 AM
Why do you keep insisting that the only way for the Sox to get Young is by trading Konerko? :?:

There's room for both of them.

Exactly. And not only is there room for both of them, but Konerko is a horrible fit for the Rangers. They already have a 1B and a couple DH types.

If they decide to trade Young, it's probably going to be for pitching.

Thome25
09-18-2006, 09:40 AM
Exactly. And not only is there room for both of them, but Konerko is a horrible fit for the Rangers. They already have a 1B and a couple DH types.

If they decide to trade Young, it's probably going to be for pitching.

Exactly. Freddy Garcia for Young anyone?

Hitmen77
09-18-2006, 09:50 AM
Yeah. Garcia and Uribe should be enough. I do think Michael Young would make this team special again.

Wow, I'd say do it if the Rangers would accept that trade.

Beautox
09-18-2006, 11:46 AM
I'm sorry but the rangers would never take Garcia. They would never accept Garica + Uribe, Garcia has 1 year left on his contract thats not going to happen.

You have to give up something to get something, the something on our behalf would be Jose, Millwood + Jose is a pretty good 1-2 punch on behalf of the rangers.

What i could see happening is this.

Deal Jose and Uribe to texas for Michael Young and RHP prospect Thomas Diamond (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Thomas%20Diamond&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=435080) (12-5, 4.24 ERA), while picking up some of Jose's contract, KW has gone on record saying hes only going to trade pitching when he gets pitching back, Diamond fills that role, "He led the Texas League with 145 strikeouts. He is still mainly a fastball pitcher(he can get it up to 97 but it sits in the mid 90s), but his changeup has improved considerably. He is still working on his breaking ball as opponents continue to foul off too many fastballs, resulting in high pitch counts. Diamond will be headed to the Instructional League." - T.R. Sullivan / MLB.com

Here is the reasoning: Jose has been one of the best pitchers for the past year, he is older and a health risk, his contract is below market value, and this offseason is a very weak FA class, The rangers have alot of players leaving via FA this offseason, Lee, Matthews, Padilla, Eaton and Wells and a few others if im not mistaken. With this weak FA class this offseason i believe someone like Jose could bring us alot back.

From texas's stand point this make sense because they are very high on SS Joaquin Arias (http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060907&content_id=1651080&vkey=news_tex&fext=.jsp&c_id=tex)(who they aquired in the a-rod trade) Juan would provide a platoon/stop gap he has a .3mil buy out for '08, I think both Arlington & Texas's hitting instructor Rudy Jaramillo would help Juan alot. Also recently Tom Hicks called out (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2576167) Young for not being "tough" among other things. KW has said he will puruse young, and we all know how KW is when he has someone in his sights. Also Juan is having a career worst year i think a change of scenery and a new hitting instructor could do him alot of good along with Arlington, at the very least you get what you see now with great defense, he could be a stop gap if he doesn't pan out in '07 your not left holding the bag in '08 because you only have a .3mil buy out, if he does you deal him in '08 and get something in return for him, with Uribe you have upside.

DaleJRFan
09-19-2006, 11:39 AM
I'm sorry but the rangers would never take Garcia. They would never accept Garica + Uribe, Garcia has 1 year left on his contract thats not going to happen.

You have to give up something to get something, the something on our behalf would be Jose, Millwood + Jose is a pretty good 1-2 punch on behalf of the rangers.

What i could see happening is this...........

By the same token, the Rangers wouldn't take Contreras either. He's older, expensive and has been iffy the second half of this year - thus netting him one Cy Young quality half of a season. The rest of his career, he has been a 4+ ERA .500 pitcher. If Texas is going to ship us Michael Young and expect pitching in return, they are going to want someone young and cheap who is major league ready. It's going to take Brandon McCarthy or Jon Garland (yes, he is cheap with his 3/30 contract) to net Michael Young - assuming TX wants a pitcher in return.

Last offseason, the Rangers traded Soriano and got no pitching in return. They traded Chris Young to San Diego and got Eaton back. Their trades the past few years haven't made much sense and haven't made them any better. Who is to say that this can't happen with Michael Young, too?

It is going to be difficult to unload Garcia, Vazquez or even Contreras and expect to receive a player like Michael Young back. I think it'd be more of a $$$ + Starting Pitcher for prospects trade. Then maybe KW can package some current Sox prospects and aquired prospects for filling the gaping holes in LF & SS and to address the bullpen issues.

Flight #24
09-19-2006, 04:58 PM
IMO a more realistic target would be Uribe+Garcia to the Giants for Vizquel + Stanton.

Why Omar - he gives you the same or better BA & OBP than Pods, and he's got some speed although nowhere near Pods pure speed. He's a far more stable defensive presence than Uribe, albiet without the range of Juan. He doesn't make a ton, and he's a KW guy. He also lets you gain some flexibility to fill LF, which is easier to do than SS. A Lineup of say: Vizquel-Iguchi-Dye-Thome-Konerko-Crede-AJ-BA-Fields/Sweeney distributes some speed through the lineup and has a lot more offensive balance than the current one.

Stanton helps solidify the 'pen, and the deal nets significant $$$ savings which can be redeployed.

Why do the Giants do it - because if they bring Barry back, they need major league pitching and they need it now. Garcia moving to the NL and a pitchers park can be a difference maker for them, and it's only a 1-year deal so if they decide to rebuild after '07, they can take the draft picks and shed that salary easily. Uribe gives them a serviceable young SS with some room to improve. And if history is any guide, KW might be able to take the Terry Ryan model and get a low-level prospect who turns into a major star.

JohnTucker0814
09-19-2006, 05:13 PM
IMO a more realistic target would be Uribe+Garcia to the Giants for Vizquel + Stanton.

Why Omar - he gives you the same or better BA & OBP than Pods, and he's got some speed although nowhere near Pods pure speed. He's a far more stable defensive presence than Uribe, albiet without the range of Juan. He doesn't make a ton, and he's a KW guy. He also lets you gain some flexibility to fill LF, which is easier to do than SS. A Lineup of say: Vizquel-Iguchi-Dye-Thome-Konerko-Crede-AJ-BA-Fields/Sweeney distributes some speed through the lineup and has a lot more offensive balance than the current one.

Stanton helps solidify the 'pen, and the deal nets significant $$$ savings which can be redeployed.

Why do the Giants do it - because if they bring Barry back, they need major league pitching and they need it now. Garcia moving to the NL and a pitchers park can be a difference maker for them, and it's only a 1-year deal so if they decide to rebuild after '07, they can take the draft picks and shed that salary easily. Uribe gives them a serviceable young SS with some room to improve. And if history is any guide, KW might be able to take the Terry Ryan model and get a low-level prospect who turns into a major star.

Why do we want Vizquel? I don't care what kind of player he is, even if he was putting up Pujols numbers...WE DON'T WANT HIM! He refused to come to our team last year because he wanted an extra year on his contract with SF. Why bring him here now... he doesn't want to play for you, we don't want him either!

Flight #24
09-19-2006, 05:20 PM
Why do we want Vizquel? I don't care what kind of player he is, even if he was putting up Pujols numbers...WE DON'T WANT HIM! He refused to come to our team last year because he wanted an extra year on his contract with SF. Why bring him here now... he doesn't want to play for you, we don't want him either!

:?:

He wanted to play for the Sox, but he got a 3-yr offer and the Sox wouldn't go past 2. The only way you'd want him is if he turned down better offers to come here? If that's the criteria, the team will be fairly devoid of players, because that rarely happens.

DaleJRFan
09-19-2006, 05:36 PM
IMO a more realistic target would be Uribe+Garcia to the Giants for Vizquel + Stanton.

Why Omar - he gives you the same or better BA & OBP than Pods, and he's got some speed although nowhere near Pods pure speed. He's a far more stable defensive presence than Uribe, albiet without the range of Juan. He doesn't make a ton, and he's a KW guy. He also lets you gain some flexibility to fill LF, which is easier to do than SS. A Lineup of say: Vizquel-Iguchi-Dye-Thome-Konerko-Crede-AJ-BA-Fields/Sweeney distributes some speed through the lineup and has a lot more offensive balance than the current one.

Stanton helps solidify the 'pen, and the deal nets significant $$$ savings which can be redeployed.

So you want to trade a 27 year old slick-fielding shortstop with plate-patience issues and a 30 year old "Big Game" starting pitcher who logs 220+ innings every year for a lefthanded relief pitcher who has been released FOUR times in two years and a 41 year old singles-only shortstop with NO gap power and ever-decreasing foot speed?? Regardless of the "contract savings", no thank you.

Why do the Giants do it - because if they bring Barry back, they need major league pitching and they need it now. Garcia moving to the NL and a pitchers park can be a difference maker for them, and it's only a 1-year deal so if they decide to rebuild after '07, they can take the draft picks and shed that salary easily. Uribe gives them a serviceable young SS with some room to improve. And if history is any guide, KW might be able to take the Terry Ryan model and get a low-level prospect who turns into a major star.

This is why the Sox should ask for a little bit more (and I am sure they would) in return for Uribe. Stanton, who otherwise would be a non-roster invitee to the Sox spring camp, can be clumped into the 15 other "end of their career" lefties we saw in ST 2006.

In terms of trade value, Garcia+Uribe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Stanton+Vizquel

This is Freddy Garcia we are talking about here, not Danny Wright, Jason Grilli or Felix Diaz. There are any number of teams in both leagues that would love to have Freddy in their rotation.

While he has his issues, Uribe isn't going to be easy to replace. He gets on his streaks and can carry the team with his gap power. He has made a lot of boneheaded plays at SS this year, but he's worth hanging onto instead of giving up on.

Flight #24
09-19-2006, 05:51 PM
So you want to trade a 27 year old slick-fielding shortstop with plate-patience issues and a 30 year old "Big Game" starting pitcher who logs 220+ innings every year for a lefthanded relief pitcher who has been released FOUR times in two years and a 41 year old singles-only shortstop with NO gap power and ever-decreasing foot speed?? Regardless of the "contract savings", no thank you.

This is why the Sox should ask for a little bit more (and I am sure they would) in return for Uribe. Stanton, who otherwise would be a non-roster invitee to the Sox spring camp, can be clumped into the 15 other "end of their career" lefties we saw in ST 2006.

In terms of trade value, Garcia+Uribe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Stanton+Vizquel

This is Freddy Garcia we are talking about here, not Danny Wright, Jason Grilli or Felix Diaz. There are any number of teams in both leagues that would love to have Freddy in their rotation.

While he has his issues, Uribe isn't going to be easy to replace. He gets on his streaks and can carry the team with his gap power. He has made a lot of boneheaded plays at SS this year, but he's worth hanging onto instead of giving up on.

I think you way overvalue Uribe. Yeah, he's slick-fielding, but he's also prone to boneheaded errors a lot more than a guy like Vizquel (who despite "ever-decreasing footspeed", still steals more bags than Juan ever did).

This team doesn't need more power. It needs higher BA, situational hitting, and OBP. Juan fails at all of those. He's hitting .234 with a .258OBP coming on the heels of a .258 / .301 season. And he's got 12 errors to Vizquel's 3. It is admittedly a sacrifice of range & great plays for stability and guaranteeing the "regular" play. And an offensive upgrade.

Freddy is what you say. He's also a guy with a lot of miles on his arm, declining velocity, who's on his way to posting an ERA around 5, and who admittedly has issues focusing when he decides it's not a big game (and his "big game" aspect hasn't shown up this year at times either). And he makes $9M.

A junkballing SP with an ERA around 5 and a .234 / .258 hitting SS aren't going to net you anything close to a star or near-star player like Young. Especially when they make decent coin.

Stanton's a throw-in since the Sox are liekly looking for vet relievers. He's an FA anyway now that I think about it.

SABRSox
09-19-2006, 06:17 PM
A junkballing SP with an ERA around 5 and a .234 / .258 hitting SS aren't going to net you anything close to a star or near-star player like Young. Especially when they make decent coin.

Well, to be honest, Texas is in desperate need of pitching, and they may take Garcia based on previous success alone. I think you underrate his trade value.

The Immigrant
09-19-2006, 06:31 PM
St. Louis is also desperate for pitching and Eckstein strikes me as a grinder type. Same goes for Philadelphia and Jimmy Rollins.

I liked Vizquel...in 1995.

Lip Man 1
09-19-2006, 06:49 PM
In the 'Ask Mark Gonzales' column at the Tribune today he is asked twice about Michael Young and thinks it would be a terriffic pick up for the Sox, but it's going to be costly. He also thinks Jimmy Rollins may be available.

Lip
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SABRSox
09-19-2006, 07:13 PM
St. Louis is also desperate for pitching and Eckstein strikes me as a grinder type. Same goes for Philadelphia and Jimmy Rollins.

I liked Vizquel...in 1995.

David Eckstein is a great clubhouse guy. As a player, though, I'm not a big fan. But if you put his attitude in Uribe's body... then you'd have a player.

GoSox2K3
09-19-2006, 11:57 PM
IMO a more realistic target would be Uribe+Garcia to the Giants for Vizquel + Stanton.

Vizquel will be 40 next year. Isn't his age a concern?