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Fenway
09-14-2006, 12:25 PM
This is a good read on the history of the MVP going back to the 1920's

Choice is clear: Jeter (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/09/14/choice_is_clear_jeter)

I love ya, Big Papi, but Derek Jeter is the American League Most Valuable Player. It would be a mockery to anoint anyone else.


But a system in place before this one was instituted in 1931 did have a guideline. There was something called the League Award available from 1922-29, and, according to the indispensable encyclopedia ``Total Baseball," its committee adopted a set of rules that included a declaration that the trophy was to honor the player ``who is of greatest all-around service to his club and credit to the sport during each season; to recognize and record uncommon skill and ability when exercised by a player in the best interests of his team and to perpetuate his memory."

CHISOXFAN13
09-14-2006, 12:30 PM
This is a good read on the history of the MVP going back to the 1920's

Choice is clear: Jeter (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/09/14/choice_is_clear_jeter)

I love ya, Big Papi, but Derek Jeter is the American League Most Valuable Player. It would be a mockery to anoint anyone else.


Jermaine Dye and Justin Morneau are both far more deserving that Ortiz, whose team was virtually out of playoff contention in late August.

I wouldn't have a problem with Jeter winning it, either. He's been very, very clutch all year.

cbotnyse
09-14-2006, 12:53 PM
Jermaine Dye and Justin Morneau are both far more deserving that Ortiz, whose team was virtually out of playoff contention in late August.

I wouldn't have a problem with Jeter winning it, either. He's been very, very clutch all year.I agree with this post. If the Twins and the Sox both make the playoffs a good case could be made for Dye and Morneau over Jeter.

Fenway
09-14-2006, 01:00 PM
I agree with this post. If the Twins and the Sox both make the playoffs a good case could be made for Dye and Morneau over Jeter.

Jeter kept NYY afloat earlier in the summer so you can't dismiss him.

cbotnyse
09-14-2006, 01:03 PM
Jeter kept NYY afloat earlier in the summer so you can't dismiss him.I agree. I wouldnt have a problem with Jeter winning it.

spiffie
09-14-2006, 01:14 PM
I agree. I wouldnt have a problem with Jeter winning it.
To me an MVP is not only someone who the team needs in order to win, but who would irreplaceable. If Jeter went down, they would simply slide A-Rod over to SS (his natural position) and pick up someone else for 3rd base. Jeter has had a very good year, but when everyone on your team is a megamillion all star player, I just don't see how you can pick out someone from that and call him the MVP.

PorkChopExpress
09-14-2006, 01:39 PM
Jeter kept NYY afloat earlier in the summer so you can't dismiss him.

I'll admit, I do not follow the Yanks that closely, but it seems to me that there were a few people who kept the Yanks afloat earlier in the summer. Wang, Cabrera, Cano, Giambi (:angry: ), Mussina to name a few. Why does Jeter get all of the credit?

Paulwny
09-14-2006, 01:57 PM
I'll admit, I do not follow the Yanks that closely, but it seems to me that there were a few people who kept the Yanks afloat earlier in the summer. Wang, Cabrera, Cano, Giambi (:angry: ), Mussina to name a few. Why does Jeter get all of the credit?

The yankmee propaganda machine at its best, he's the yankmee captain, loved by all the yankmee fans, the MVP assures him a place in the HOF. :angry:

drewcifer
09-14-2006, 02:08 PM
Mauer is more valuable than Jeter.

Offensively, they're about identical, but Mauer being a catcher with that rotation puts him miles ahead of Jeter for his defensive value.

Having said, Jeter will win it.

CanBuehrleWait
09-14-2006, 02:12 PM
The yankmee propaganda machine at its best, he's the yankmee captain, loved by all the yankmee fans, the MVP assures him a place in the HOF. :angry:

He is already first ballot due to the 4 blingys on his fingers. I agree with what another poster said though. How can you pick just one person from that team. 6 of the 9 players in their starting day lineup made more then the Marlins entire payroll individually:angry:.

Nellie_Fox
09-14-2006, 02:35 PM
The Yankees have multi-million dollar, multi-time all-stars at practically every position. So, a couple of them get injured, and they only replace one of them with another multi-million dollar all-star, thus having to play just a normal human being (you know, the type other teams have at most positions) and somehow this is a nearly insurmountable handicap, requiring Jeter to part the waters to overcome?

Oh, he'll get the MVP, because the east-coast media monster has made everyone believe in the rectitude and inevitability of it, but sorry, Jeter does not carry that team.

The Twins surge into contention is directly correlated to Justin Morneau's surge in offensive production. Jermaine Dye has absolutely been the rock in an otherwise dicey season. Joe Mauer is a constant offensive threat while playing the most physically demanding position in the game, and playing it very well.

Paulwny
09-14-2006, 02:38 PM
He is already first ballot due to the 4 blingys on his fingers. I agree with what another poster said though. How can you pick just one person from that team. 6 of the 9 players in their starting day lineup made more then the Marlins entire payroll individually:angry:.

Phil Rizzutto has 8 rings and a MVP, he wasn't inducted till 94' by the veterans committee. The MVP put him into the HOF not his 8 rings.

spiffie
09-14-2006, 02:43 PM
Phil Rizzutto has 8 rings and a MVP, he wasn't inducted till 94' by the veterans committee. The MVP put him into the HOF not his 8 rings.
No, the rise of the East Coast media machine put him into the HOF. No one cared that he wasn't in until the media started to harp on it. Bill James has a great summary of the Rizzuto thing and the media hysterics in "What Happened to the Hall of Fame?"

Paulwny
09-14-2006, 02:47 PM
No, the rise of the East Coast media machine put him into the HOF. No one cared that he wasn't in until the media started to harp on it. Bill James has a great summary of the Rizzuto thing and the media hysterics in "What Happened to the Hall of Fame?"

Thanks for the clarification and further proof of King George's propaganda machine at work.

maurice
09-14-2006, 02:47 PM
It's silly that Mauer doesn't get serious consideration but Jeter does. Morneau and Jeter aren't even the most valuable players on their respective teams.

Fenway
09-14-2006, 03:12 PM
It's silly that Mauer doesn't get serious consideration but Jeter does. Morneau and Jeter aren't even the most valuable players on their respective teams.

The Yankees MVP the past 10 years is

http://espn-ak.starwave.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/65x90/5400.jpg

case closed

BigPapaPump
09-14-2006, 03:19 PM
Phil Rizzutto has 8 rings and a MVP, he wasn't inducted till 94' by the veterans committee. The MVP put him into the HOF not his 8 rings.


http://www.destinationhollywood.com/celebrities/adamsandler/images/adamsandler_billymadison_02.jpg

You're cheating! Rizzuto's not a word! He's a baseball player!

23Ventura
09-14-2006, 03:24 PM
The Twins surge into contention is directly correlated to Justin Morneau's surge in offensive production. Jermaine Dye has absolutely been the rock in an otherwise dicey season. Joe Mauer is a constant offensive threat while playing the most physically demanding position in the game, and playing it very well.
You're right, all 3 of these guys deserve it more than Jeter, but Jeter's gonna win it because the media loves him. The MVP is turning into a joke, because if a guy plays for the Yankees/Red Sox they'll find a reason to say he deserves the MVP. He wouldn't even be in the MVP discussion if he played in the central or west.

Fenway
09-14-2006, 03:30 PM
http://www.destinationhollywood.com/celebrities/adamsandler/images/adamsandler_billymadison_02.jpg

You're cheating! Rizzuto's not a word! He's a baseball player!

Phil's is the oldest living Hall of Famer

Rizzuto became more popular as a broadcaster

Ok, here we go, we got a real pressure cooker
going here, two down, nobody on, no score,
bottom of the ninth, there's the wind-up and
there it is, a line shot up the middle, look
at him go. This boy can really fly!
He's rounding first and really turning it on
now, he's not letting up at all, he's gonna
try for second; the ball is bobbled out in center,
and here comes the throw, and what a throw!
He's gonna slide in head first, here he comes, he's out!
No, wait, safe--safe at second base, this kid really
makes things happen out there.
Batter steps up to the plate, here's the pitch--
he's going, and what a jump he's got, he's trying
for third, here's the throw, it's in the dirt--
safe at third! Holy cow, stolen base!
He's taking a pretty big lead out there, almost
daring him to try and pick him off. The pitcher
glance over, winds up, and it's bunted, bunted
down the third base line, the suicide squeeze in on!
Here he comes, squeeze play, it's gonna be close,
here's the throw, there's the play at the plate,
holy cow, I think he's gonna make it!

"I like radio better than television because if you make a mistake on radio, they don't know. You can make up anything on the radio."

"Well that (Pope Paul VI passing away) kind of puts the damper on even a Yankee win."
http://www.ultimateyankees.com/Phil%20Rizzuto%20Steiner%20Auto%208x10%20WPIX%20Ph oto.jpg

chaerulez
09-14-2006, 04:33 PM
No, the rise of the East Coast media machine put him into the HOF. No one cared that he wasn't in until the media started to harp on it. Bill James has a great summary of the Rizzuto thing and the media hysterics in "What Happened to the Hall of Fame?"

If Phil Rizzuto wasn't know as a Yankee, he wouldn't be in the HOF. He is quite possibly the worst hall of famer ever.

NardiWasHere
09-14-2006, 05:04 PM
I have no problem with Jeter winning it, although I would prefer Dye. To Jeter's credit, that "multi-multi-multi-million dollar" payroll wasn't producing like it should have, (injuries/bad-years)... in fact, you could EASILY make a case that Dye had much more production around him than the yanks had.

Its unfair to completely dismiss Jeter because you dislike the economic system and media climate in the MLB.

Nellie_Fox
09-14-2006, 05:18 PM
Its unfair to completely dismiss Jeter because you dislike the economic system and media climate in the MLB.Nobody is dismissing him, just saying that he wouldn't be getting this type of hype for MVP if he played for any other team. He'd just be a candidate, and not the leading one.

app2686
09-15-2006, 12:00 AM
The only argument the East Coast media uses to put Derek Jeter ahead of Jermaine Dye and Justin Morneau for the AL MVP award is that he plays the extremely important defensive position of short stop.

Although the short stop position is an extremely important defensive position, what the east coast machine fails to tell its readers is that Derek Jeter has become one of the worst ranking defensive short stops lately. He ranks 31/32 this year. (At least, that's what I last read. Correct me if I'm wrong) However, the main idea is that even though he plays an important defensive position, he isn't very good at it.

TheOldRoman
09-15-2006, 12:10 AM
The only argument the East Coast media uses to put Derek Jeter ahead of Jermaine Dye and Justin Morneau for the AL MVP award is that he plays the extremely important defensive position of short stop.

Although the short stop position is an extremely important defensive position, what the east coast machine fails to tell its readers is that Derek Jeter has become one of the worst ranking defensive short stops lately. He ranks 31/32 this year. (At least, that's what I last read. Correct me if I'm wrong) However, the main idea is that even though he plays an important defensive position, he isn't very good at it.
:thumbsup:

Yeah, but... but... but... he makes that awesome play where he jumps in the air and throws. That is so cool. Like, nobody else could do that.

palehozenychicty
09-15-2006, 12:14 AM
:thumbsup:

Yeah, but... but... but... he makes that awesome play where he jumps in the air and throws. That is so cool. Like, nobody else could do that.

What's worse is to hear it from that fool Sterling.

Railsplitter
09-15-2006, 11:43 AM
Now this Bob Ryan is not the idiot who tagged the Dallas Cowboys "America's Team" (it was an NFL Films editor with the same name) he's showing the same level of intelligence.

Goose
09-15-2006, 01:13 PM
The only argument the East Coast media uses to put Derek Jeter ahead of Jermaine Dye and Justin Morneau for the AL MVP award is that he plays the extremely important defensive position of short stop.

Although the short stop position is an extremely important defensive position, what the east coast machine fails to tell its readers is that Derek Jeter has become one of the worst ranking defensive short stops lately. He ranks 31/32 this year. (At least, that's what I last read. Correct me if I'm wrong) However, the main idea is that even though he plays an important defensive position, he isn't very good at it.

That argument hold no water when talking about Ortiz as an MVP candidate. Can't have it both ways.

3rdgensoxfan
09-15-2006, 01:23 PM
The only argument the East Coast media uses to put Derek Jeter ahead of Jermaine Dye and Justin Morneau for the AL MVP award is that he plays the extremely important defensive position of short stop.

Although the short stop position is an extremely important defensive position, what the east coast machine fails to tell its readers is that Derek Jeter has become one of the worst ranking defensive short stops lately. He ranks 31/32 this year. (At least, that's what I last read. Correct me if I'm wrong) However, the main idea is that even though he plays an important defensive position, he isn't very good at it.

Good point... I guess we haven't been talking baseball enough on IM so you decided to start posting here... :smile:

Go Sox!

23Ventura
09-15-2006, 02:01 PM
:thumbsup:

Yeah, but... but... but... he makes that awesome play where he jumps in the air and throws. That is so cool. Like, nobody else could do that.
Don't forget about the play against Boston when he caught a pop-up and dove into the stands (even though he could've easily stopped, he took like 5 more steps before going into the stands). Uribe's catch in game 4 was a thousand times better.

FielderJones
09-15-2006, 02:09 PM
If Phil Rizzuto wasn't know as a Yankee, he wouldn't be in the HOF. He is quite possibly the worst hall of famer ever.

Not even close (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Pmarar101.htm).

maurice
09-15-2006, 02:22 PM
That's exactly what I'm talking about: "Jeter is MVP because he's a SS." It's SO disingenuous. If these people really valued defense / position so much, they'd be pushing for Mauer, not Jeter.

SOXSINCE'70
09-16-2006, 03:53 PM
The yankmee propaganda machine at its best, he's the yankmee captain, loved by all the yankmee fans, the MVP assures him a place in the HOF. :angry:

Pretty soon,he'll turn water into wine.:rolleyes:

1951Campbell
09-16-2006, 08:24 PM
Jeter's MVP? Someone needs to slap some sense into Bob Ryan.

:duck:

Fenway
09-18-2006, 01:27 AM
Jeter's MVP? Someone needs to slap some sense into Bob Ryan.

:duck:

ya know one could make a case for Frank for MVP

1951Campbell
09-18-2006, 02:12 PM
ya know one could make a case for Frank for MVP

Yes. Or Dye. Or Mauer.

oeo
09-18-2006, 02:17 PM
ya know one could make a case for Frank for MVP

There's your MVP. Take Jeter away from the Yankees, and they could still get by. Take Dye away from the Sox, and the Sox could still get by (if Thome/Konerko are performing).

Take Frank away from the A's, and their record is nowhere near what it is. He singlehandedly won this weekend's series against us.

Fenway
09-18-2006, 03:22 PM
There's your MVP. Take Jeter away from the Yankees, and they could still get by. Take Dye away from the Sox, and the Sox could still get by (if Thome/Konerko are performing).

Take Frank away from the A's, and their record is nowhere near what it is. He singlehandedly won this weekend's series against us.

Frank not with the A's, they probably don't win the AL west...it is as simple as that.

D. TODD
09-20-2006, 12:30 PM
I think Mauer is hurt by the fact that he is not considered the most important player on his own team. Johan Santana is the player the Twins could have least afforded to lose. If your only looking for position players Mornaeu has done every bit as well as Mauer for the Twinks. If I had to vote right now Jeter would be my choice. He is not a runaway guy by any stretch of the imagination, but he would be my pick at this juncture, no east coast bias needed.

I would love to say Dye , but the tailspin by the Sox probably doomed him. Hafner had the best numbers before his injury, but being on an underachieving Indians squad doomed him as well. Big Papi, well his late season heart problems and the Red Sox swoon did the same to his shot.

When I add it up it comes up DER-EK JET-ER for me this year.

fquaye149
09-20-2006, 01:48 PM
To me an MVP is not only someone who the team needs in order to win, but who would irreplaceable. If Jeter went down, they would simply slide A-Rod over to SS (his natural position) and pick up someone else for 3rd base. Jeter has had a very good year, but when everyone on your team is a megamillion all star player, I just don't see how you can pick out someone from that and call him the MVP.

that's silly. If you don't see why it's silly, then I guess I better explain:

a.) A-Rod has had a mediocre year (at least by his standards) and if the Yankees during their injury-plagued stretch were going to rely on A-Rod to carry them they were in deep ****.

b.) just because they could move A-Rod to SS does nothing for the PRODUCTION Jeter gave them, nor does it do anything for that hole at 3B


don't let your Yankees distaste get in the way of reality, please.

Jeter has had a phenomenal year offensively for a SS and during a period when the Yankees might have floundered, helped then establish themself as a first place team.

Is NYY a playoff team w/o Jeter this year? They sure wouldn't have wrapped the thing up already, to say the least.--and that's WITH Boston having a Shakespearean tragedy of a season!!!

maurice
09-20-2006, 02:04 PM
Is NYY a playoff team w/o Jeter this year?

This always is an interesting question. Since they have an 11-game lead right now, I'd say the answer is yes. This particular argument seems to favor guys like Thomas, while hurting guys on BOTH NY teams.

Jeter has had a phenomenal year offensively for a SS

Hmmm, Carlos Guillen for MVP?
:cool:

Nellie_Fox
09-20-2006, 03:20 PM
Would the Yankees be in first without Jeter? Probably. Come on, they have all-stars at practically every position. This idea of the "obstacles" they've overcome this year is just media nonsense. Now that Sheffield is about ready to come back, they're having trouble figuring out where to put him, and are working him out at first base. Horribly missed, huh?

Now, take away Santana OR Mauer OR Morneau from the Twins, and would they be about to overtake the Tigers? Probably not.

Take Frank away from the A's and would they be about to clinch the West? Probably not.

fquaye149
09-20-2006, 04:00 PM
Would the Yankees be in first without Jeter? Probably. Come on, they have all-stars at practically every position. This idea of the "obstacles" they've overcome this year is just media nonsense. Now that Sheffield is about ready to come back, they're having trouble figuring out where to put him, and are working him out at first base. Horribly missed, huh?

Now, take away Santana OR Mauer OR Morneau from the Twins, and would they be about to overtake the Tigers? Probably not.

Take Frank away from the A's and would they be about to clinch the West? Probably not.

They have all-stars at practically every position but not every.

A-Rod's not having a great year, but he is better than many 3B. Damon is having a solid year. Cano continues to be a solid second sacker. Their other all-stars (Giambi, Posada, Bernie (HA) Matsui, Abreu and Sheffield) have provided almost no production, at least not to diminish Jeter's incredible importance to the Yankees' success.

They probably would have won the division anyway, but that's only due to the Red Sox remarkable misfortune and poor performance.

So Jeter has Damon, Cano, and A-Rod (and some mediocre numbers from the rest of his supporting cast)...how is that any different from Dye having Crede, Konerko, and Thome (not to mention AJ)?

If you say Jeter is a charlatan for MVP you MUST MUST MUST say the same thing about Dye, and I think few are willing to do that here (and rightly so, because it's bull****)


Further: My ref. to Jeter as IMPORTANT to his team was in no way an endorsement of the "he has to be the sole reason his team's in contention, or be on a contending team at least" argument. I'm in favor of awarding the MVP to the best player in AL, in this case, and that is either Jeter or Dye when you consider their respective positions (SS and RF). Jeter's achievement over the avg SS is equivalent (in my estimate) to Dye's performance over the avg RF. No one else(except, of course, Hafner) comes close, really

That's not to say importance to team isn't relevant to me (it is) and whether the team is in contention (that is too). But since Dye and Jeter seem equally important to their teams and since their numbers are similar (when you consider what position they play) it's a tossup and it seems silly to deny that Jeter has had a phenomenal and phenomenally important season

maurice
09-21-2006, 01:58 PM
Jeter's achievement over the avg SS

This argument also bodes well for Mauer, who is better than the average C defensively and about 147 times better than the average C offensively.

Probably the most under-reported story of the season is that a C leads the AL in hitting with a .344 AVE. He also has a .923 OPS. That's ridiculous.

fquaye149
09-21-2006, 02:20 PM
This argument also bodes well for Mauer, who is better than the average C defensively and about 147 times better than the average C offensively.

Probably the most under-reported story of the season is that a C leads the AL in hitting with a .344 AVE. He also has a .923 OPS. That's ridiculous.

He's a great hitter...unfortunately I wouldn't expect him to get too much support in the MVP voting (he probably should). The fact is, the HR and RBI #'s just aren't there (although his 923 OPS suggests that the power #'s ARE)