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Whitesox4ever
09-12-2006, 08:01 AM
According to the LA Daily News


The Chicago White Sox, who are in town this week, could be a trade partner since they likely will be shopping for a center fielder, left fielder and shortstop this winter.
White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen is on record as saying he is a fan of Figgins. Before Monday's game, Guillen said the team will be on the market for speed, a sign that arbitration-eligible left fielder Scott Podsednik likely won't be tendered a contract this offseason. Figgins could be part of a package to land White Sox third baseman Joe Crede, who is arbitration eligible after this season and is http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifhttp://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifhttp://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gif http://m1.2mdn.net/951574/.gif (http://ad.doubleclick.net/click%3Bh=v7/345e/3/0/%2a/h%3B45038301%3B0-0%3B1%3B11615940%3B255-0/0%3B18058304/18076199/1%3B%3B%7Eaopt%3D2/0/39%3B%7Esscs%3D%3fhttp://production.langnews.com/jvu/lacomjobs/)http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifhttp://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifin the middle of a breakout season after a standout postseason. White Sox general manager Ken Williams has a tenuous relationship with Scott Boras

jenn2080
09-12-2006, 08:09 AM
Booo I dont want to hear such a thing! No getting rid of Crede!

JorgeFabregas
09-12-2006, 08:21 AM
Figgins, a more versatile and slightly faster Scott Podsednik? No thanks. Their defensive stats are pretty similar, as well. Let's say the stats don't tell the whole story and he's a marginally better left-fielder than Pods (surely he's not better defensively than Anderson), it's not worth the drop-off in defense between Fields and Crede. On the Anderson tip, he's got a lot more experience, but is only a touch better than Anderson offensively. Aside from the steals, his and Anderson's lines are very similar this year.
.256.327.351.678
Figgins
.229 .299 .361 .660
Anderson

DumpJerry
09-12-2006, 08:53 AM
I'm sorry, when did Figgens change his name to Carl Crawford?

Joe is a no go to another team.

MadetoOrta
09-12-2006, 09:02 AM
Figgins and Scott Shields I might actually consider. Figgins for Joe? C'mon.

drewcifer
09-12-2006, 09:18 AM
Figgins and Scott Shields I might actually consider. Figgins for Joe? C'mon.

Exactly. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?seasonType=2&type=reg&sort=avg&minpa=0&split=109&season=2006&pos=all&hand=a&league=al&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&qual=true)

He's not better, or cheaper, is barely younger, and represents no upside other than marginally better legs. In fact, as I think about it, I'd rather see us use a prospect for something better or not at all.

LuvSox
09-12-2006, 09:25 AM
Good god, this bull**** is starting already?

Can't this wait until the offseason?

ND_Sox_Fan
09-12-2006, 09:30 AM
This blurb makes us sound like the Pirates: great young player has a solid season, nears arbitration; therefore, it is time to trade.

mark2olson
09-12-2006, 10:15 AM
The writer does not cite a source for this. His assertions are speculation.

Flight #24
09-12-2006, 10:18 AM
Apparently the writer fell for the 2d oldest trick in the book. Hear the name "Boras" and think "Oh, can't stay with the White Sox". Ignore completely the fact that Joe's only arbitration eligible through 2008 (a process not designed to take maximum advantage of Bora$$ lying "techniques"), or his own comments that he'd find new representation if he thought it would help him stay at a good price.

southside rocks
09-12-2006, 10:34 AM
Agree with Flight#24.

Also, if Crede gets dealt, it won't be to a team in the AL Central. Kenny Williams is not a stupid man.

(I don't see Crede getting traded at all; I think he's going to be another Paul Konerko and stay most or all of his career with one franchise.)

Mickster
09-12-2006, 10:46 AM
Also, if Crede gets dealt, it won't be to a team in the AL Central. Kenny Williams is not a stupid man.

Umm, is Anaheim in the AL Central? :dunno:

Sox-o-matic
09-12-2006, 10:57 AM
Umm, LAAAAAAAA would be all over that trade. More like Owens and Tracey for Figgins, nothing more.

I'd rather see KW aim higher. Personally I'd rather sell the farm for Crawford if Tampa would be willing, which they probably won't be. I'd trade Brandon and a midlevel prospect or two for him in a heartbeat.

BTW, anyone in favor of a deal for Figgins would be just as pissed at him as they are with Pods rght now. Both have under performed and if it came down to Figgins or nothing, I'd stick with Pods and assume this is an off year for him.

daveeym
09-12-2006, 11:05 AM
Wow reading is a skill people. Regardless of the likelihood of anything happening the writer did say figgins would be part of a PACKAGE to land Crede. Figgins and 2 solid pitchers in return could land crede if you want to speculate.

You get the desired pitching and restock the pen and minors or maybe even a starter.

You dump the risk of crede's back.

You dump the risk of borass.

You upgrade over podsednik and give yourself outfield flexibility. I'd say keep Anderson in center.

You have young 3b's in the system that the team likes to fill crede's position.


Now all this is speculation as well but if Crede's worth is high enough to get figgins and 2 solid pitchers I think it's something Kenny will be willing to listen to.

southside rocks
09-12-2006, 11:17 AM
Umm, is Anaheim in the AL Central? :dunno:

Oops-- sorry. :redface:

Brain fog. Heading to Starbucks right now!

Chicken Dinner
09-12-2006, 11:24 AM
Didn't the Angels just move Figgins to the 9 hole because he can't hit? :o:

Domeshot17
09-12-2006, 11:40 AM
heres the plan guys

get figgins-brandon wood-ervin santana and shields for freddy and crede

ship figgins and either santana or brandon mccarthy, and one of our surplas OF kids(not enough room to play owens sweeney brian JD Fields etc) to the O's for Tejada

Move Tejada to 3rd, Brandon Wood at short, shields to the pen with mike mac thornton and jenks, and if you move b-mac then Ervin replaces him as the young phenom starter on the team.

ok Kenny, I made it happen on my xbox, now you go do it haha

Scottzilla
09-12-2006, 11:47 AM
lol this is just a writer speculating cuz the sox are in town. we should all be glad that Crede is getting this level of respect even if the organization doesnt get any.

Sox-o-matic
09-12-2006, 11:53 AM
Wow reading is a skill people. Regardless of the likelihood of anything happening the writer did say figgins would be part of a PACKAGE to land Crede. Figgins and 2 solid pitchers in return could land crede if you want to speculate.

You get the desired pitching and restock the pen and minors or maybe even a starter.

You dump the risk of crede's back.

You dump the risk of borass.

You upgrade over podsednik and give yourself outfield flexibility. I'd say keep Anderson in center.

You have young 3b's in the system that the team likes to fill crede's position.


Now all this is speculation as well but if Crede's worth is high enough to get figgins and 2 solid pitchers I think it's something Kenny will be willing to listen to.


Besides age, how is Figgins better than Pods? Losing Crede means a defensive downgrade at third base unless you send Eric Chavez or ARod to the Southside, and last time I checked, neither play for the Angels.

Screw Borass. We still control him for one more year and even Crede has stated he wants to continue his career here. After a World Championship I can't imagine JR lowballing Joe after all he's done here.

Also, a package of pitchers? What? Like KW is going to wave a white flag here? Sure, if they want to throw in Scot Shields and Ervin Santana/Lackey, fine. But the Angles aren't going to do that. They're not that stupid, and neither is KW, and that is why a deal would never happen. It's not like the Sox are desperate for pitching, they have 6 starters on the roster right now that are all locked up at least through next year.

daveeym
09-12-2006, 12:12 PM
Besides age, how is Figgins better than Pods? Losing Crede means a defensive downgrade at third base unless you send Eric Chavez or ARod to the Southside, and last time I checked, neither play for the Angels.

Screw Borass. We still control him for one more year and even Crede has stated he wants to continue his career here. After a World Championship I can't imagine JR lowballing Joe after all he's done here.

Also, a package of pitchers? What? Like KW is going to wave a white flag here? Sure, if they want to throw in Scot Shields and Ervin Santana/Lackey, fine. But the Angles aren't going to do that. They're not that stupid, and neither is KW, and that is why a deal would never happen. It's not like the Sox are desperate for pitching, they have 6 starters on the roster right now that are all locked up at least through next year. You're trying to make it sound like it's a straight up trade for figgins. It wouldn't be. There also appears like there's going to be a lot of sox players moved this offseason. The angels don't need to have a 3b to give back in return. The sox could make other moves or fill within.

And losing Crede would hardly be a white flag being waved. It also could have the potential to be the CLee trade all over. Losing one player to fill multiple positions and filling the 3b slot from some other source. At this point I'd say Crede's value could be way higher than Lee's was at the time he was traded.

Having the best team wins championships. Having the best defensive 3rd baseman only guarantees having the best defensive 3rd baseman.

INSox56
09-12-2006, 12:20 PM
Besides age, how is Figgins better than Pods? Losing Crede means a defensive downgrade at third base unless you send Eric Chavez or ARod to the Southside, and last time I checked, neither play for the Angels.



Did you intend to say that Arod is comparable to Crede defensively????? Maybe if you compare his SS skills to Crede's 3b skills....... But you've got to be kidding me to say that Arod is as good defensively at 3b...

Myrtle72
09-12-2006, 12:22 PM
Crede is awesome. The White Sox won't get rid of him. I'd be willing to bet good money on that.

infohawk
09-12-2006, 12:28 PM
The writer does not cite a source for this. His assertions are speculation.
I agree that this is absolute garbage speculation by a sportswriter. First of all, we don't need a centerfielder. We have Brian Anderson. If Anderson doesn't work we have Ryan Sweeney. If Ryan Sweeney doesn't work, we have Jerry Owens. If Jerry Owens doesn't work, we have Rob Mac....oops, got carried away!

Crede will be here for a long time. Third basemen of his caliber don't come around very often and we're sure not going to trade him in a deal that centers around Chone Figgins. If Crede is ever traded, it will be because the Sox have serious concerns about his back or because the Sox are confident that Josh Fields is an able replacement.

It's very possible that the Sox would stay in house to fill leftfield too. We have quite a bit of outfield depth in the organization. What KW needs to do is try and trade a starter for two or three major league-ready or close to major league-ready pitchers. Guys who could be future starters but in the near term could be solid middle relievers. We need more pitching depth (like the Twins) in the organization and I think are close to having it. My dream is that we fleece some team like the Twins did to the Giants in the A.J. Pierzynski trade. Think about it. The Twins got Liriano, Nathan and Bonsor. Absolute larceny!

Whitesox4ever
09-12-2006, 12:32 PM
Crede is awesome. The White Sox won't get rid of him. I'd be willing to bet good money on that.


I thought the same thing about Rowand after last season and was shocked when he was traded. If the right package comes along KW might pull the trigger sending Crede out of town

Domeshot17
09-12-2006, 12:42 PM
here will be the problem for kenny.

we are all about 75% certain Pods will be wearing a different uniform come next year. Pods is one of the top 5 most popular players on this team, especially with the ladies. That will be a big hit. Struggling or not, seems like most places you go, you will see a 13-30 year old female in a pods tshirt.

Theres the first blow

Crede calls into that same category. Hes a top 5 popular player, big draw for females although hes more of a balanced fan favorite. Where pods has lost some of the "what have ya done for me lately" fan appreciation, Crede hasnt. So Trading him would be bigger then pods, bigger then Rowand, it would cause a major uproar and kenny knows this.

I have a feeling that if he does trade Crede it will because he thinks Fields is ready, the same way he did anderson n rowand. But my gut is telling me unless we win another world series this year and repeat, Kenny doesnt want the huge public relations uproar caused by dumping 2 or more of the most popular players on the field.

INSox56
09-12-2006, 12:46 PM
It might be safe to say that there are very few untouchables on this team. Konerko and Crede are a slight possibility if the shoe fits, uribe, garcia, vazquez, buehrle, any of the prospects, etc. I think that Dye, Garland, possibly Mccarthy, AJ, Iguchi are really the COMPLETE untouchables. Anyone else?

INSox56
09-12-2006, 12:49 PM
here will be the problem for kenny.

we are all about 75% certain Pods will be wearing a different uniform come next year. Pods is one of the top 5 most popular players on this team, especially with the ladies. That will be a big hit. Struggling or not, seems like most places you go, you will see a 13-30 year old female in a pods tshirt.

Theres the first blow

Crede calls into that same category. Hes a top 5 popular player, big draw for females although hes more of a balanced fan favorite. Where pods has lost some of the "what have ya done for me lately" fan appreciation, Crede hasnt. So Trading him would be bigger then pods, bigger then Rowand, it would cause a major uproar and kenny knows this.

I have a feeling that if he does trade Crede it will because he thinks Fields is ready, the same way he did anderson n rowand. But my gut is telling me unless we win another world series this year and repeat, Kenny doesnt want the huge public relations uproar caused by dumping 2 or more of the most popular players on the field.

I still say trade Uribe, bring up Fields, then the Crede + player(s) for Arod.......... (ONLY HALF-TEAL) :wink:

I want Mags back
09-12-2006, 12:50 PM
No Mo Joe, Oh No

The Immigrant
09-12-2006, 12:57 PM
My dream is that we fleece some team like the Twins did to the Giants in the A.J. Pierzynski trade. Think about it. The Twins got Liriano, Nathan and Bonsor. Absolute larceny!

Other recent examples: what the Marlins did to the Red Sox in the Beckett trade (you think that trade looks bad now, just wait until Lowell falls apart next year) and to the Cubs in the Juan Pierre trade.

Domeshot17
09-12-2006, 01:00 PM
the funny this is the cubs broke the farm to get pierre, ge leads the nl in hits, and i truly think he will be leading off for the southside playin under his good friend ozzie guillen next season.

daveeym
09-12-2006, 01:19 PM
here will be the problem for kenny.

we are all about 75% certain Pods will be wearing a different uniform come next year. Pods is one of the top 5 most popular players on this team, especially with the ladies. That will be a big hit. Struggling or not, seems like most places you go, you will see a 13-30 year old female in a pods tshirt.

Theres the first blow

Crede calls into that same category. Hes a top 5 popular player, big draw for females although hes more of a balanced fan favorite. Where pods has lost some of the "what have ya done for me lately" fan appreciation, Crede hasnt. So Trading him would be bigger then pods, bigger then Rowand, it would cause a major uproar and kenny knows this.

I have a feeling that if he does trade Crede it will because he thinks Fields is ready, the same way he did anderson n rowand. But my gut is telling me unless we win another world series this year and repeat, Kenny doesnt want the huge public relations uproar caused by dumping 2 or more of the most popular players on the field. No way Kenny and the Sox are worrying about the players popularity with the ladies and the fan base in general. They're worried about winning. 95% of fans find a new favorite if their old one is traded and could care less after 1 month as long as the team is winning. This isn't the northside where they plan on losing anyways so they better keep that cute guy.

Domeshot17
09-12-2006, 01:22 PM
daveeym- I agree its not the northside, but Kenny also knows its not the cubs were hes going to sell out 38k a game to see triple a scrub 1 pitch with a bunch of others in the field. These guys have put the sox in a good position financially with tickets and apparrel sales. I am sure with every trade he makes he takes into consideration how it will effect the fan base. Its part of the business.

Tragg
09-12-2006, 01:31 PM
Crede is a superior hitter and fielder.
Crede for Figgins would be ridiculous.

daveeym
09-12-2006, 01:33 PM
daveeym- I agree its not the northside, but Kenny also knows its not the cubs were hes going to sell out 38k a game to see triple a scrub 1 pitch with a bunch of others in the field. These guys have put the sox in a good position financially with tickets and apparrel sales. I am sure with every trade he makes he takes into consideration how it will effect the fan base. Its part of the business. Winning a world series changed that, not the opportunity to sell to the ladies. All those ladies will shift to BA or Konerko or someone else if Crede or Pods is traded. They are not going to make baseball decisions based on good looks which has nothing to do with aaa scrubs. Bafiarocks has found a new favorite every year, so will the others. I didn't see any of her favorites packing the stands and driving personnel decisions in the past, winning baseball did.

I'm sure kenny doesn't know **** from shinola about marketing attractive men and he doesn't care. Kenny fields the best team possible then Brooks has to figure out how to market what he's given. Not vice versa.

MadetoOrta
09-12-2006, 02:18 PM
No one on the roster is untouchable. If trading Joe gets us something in return that makes us better overall, then that's what KW has to do. [Figgins + Escobar + stud minor leaguer perhaps?] According to Razor Shines, Fields is the most "ready" and is the best prospect of them all. KW said earlier in the year "Fields will be an All-Star 3d baseman". On top of that ................. HE STOLE NEARLY 30 BASES! He makes the team quicker. How often lately have we heard Ozzie and KW mention adding team speed? Often.

There will come a day when I see Burls, Crede, AJ and maybe Paulie wearing another team's uniform. If it makes the Sox better, then I'm OK with it.

Myrtle72
09-12-2006, 02:25 PM
No way Kenny and the Sox are worrying about the players popularity with the ladies and the fan base in general. They're worried about winning. 95% of fans find a new favorite if their old one is traded and could care less after 1 month as long as the team is winning. This isn't the northside where they plan on losing anyways so they better keep that cute guy.

I disagree - they're definitely worried about winning, but a close second to that is the income they recieve from games, merchendise, events, etc. While yes, if you win, you will sell out more games (Obviously Sox fans have shown that this year) BUT I believe anogther huge contributor to that income is the 13-30 year old women who come to see Pods and Crede and others. If you make them angry, you WILL lose a decent amount of the income. Maybe nothing substantial, but I believe it would be noticable.

Myrtle72
09-12-2006, 02:27 PM
There will come a day when I see Burls, Crede, AJ and maybe Paulie wearing another team's uniform. If it makes the Sox better, then I'm OK with it.

I really think thats a little dissapointing. Unfortunately, with all the trades and everything that goes on in baseball, sometimes I feel like when you love a team like the White Sox, its not the actual team you love but the uniform they wear.

southside rocks
09-12-2006, 02:31 PM
I'm sure kenny doesn't know **** from shinola about marketing attractive men and he doesn't care. Kenny fields the best team possible then Brooks has to figure out how to market what he's given. Not vice versa.

Boy, I gotta hope that KW isn't considering a player's looks and sex appeal when he maps out a trade! :o:

Since I'm a girl, here's a female viewpoint on this: GOOD BALLPLAYERS ARE CUTE. Play like crap and I don't care what color your eyes are, how white your smile is, and how nice you look in a fitted uniform -- you're not exciting.

For pete's sake, women are baseball fans too. It's kind of bizarre to insinuate that we only go to the games to see cute guys, or that we'd stop going if Podsednik were traded.

My absolute favorite player on the Sox this year is AJ Pierzynski. And you can't tell me with a straight face that AJ is a classically handsome man. Yet I have a big article, with a photo of him, that he signed for me and that I had framed. Nuff said. :tongue:

daveeym
09-12-2006, 02:39 PM
Boy, I gotta hope that KW isn't considering a player's looks and sex appeal when he maps out a trade! :o:

Since I'm a girl, here's a female viewpoint on this: GOOD BALLPLAYERS ARE CUTE. Play like crap and I don't care what color your eyes are, how white your smile is, and how nice you look in a fitted uniform -- you're not exciting.

For pete's sake, women are baseball fans too. It's kind of bizarre to insinuate that we only go to the games to see cute guys, or that we'd stop going if Podsednik were traded.

My absolute favorite player on the Sox this year is AJ Pierzynski. And you can't tell me with a straight face that AJ is a classically handsome man. Yet I have a big article, with a photo of him, that he signed for me and that I had framed. Nuff said. :tongue: Thank you :wink:

KyWhiSoxFan
09-12-2006, 02:51 PM
I can't believe people are talking about trading Crede. He is the second-best clutch hitter on the team (to Dye), relatively young, a great fielder, and while he has questions with his back, he seems to be playing through it just fine. We have him until 2008. Fields is not ready to replace Crede any time soon in terms of first-rate productivity. (I would like to see Fields in left or DHing for Thome against lefties.)

If we want to pick up some speed, move Konerko, who costs four times as much as Crede and is eight times slower. Konerko would bring a big package of players. That would allow Crede to move up to fifth in the order.

maurice
09-12-2006, 03:04 PM
The Chicago White Sox...likely will be shopping for a center fielder, left fielder and shortstop this winter.

Author = dumbass.

IMO, KW will try to get a SS who leads off (Rollins?). If that doesn't work out, he'll need to get an OF who can leadoff. However, it's extremely unlikely that the Sox will trade their starting 3B and their starting SS and get 2 OFers, when all of the Sox top position prospects will be able to play OF and some can only play OF. The Sox org is a net exporter of OF.

The Dude
09-12-2006, 03:55 PM
According to the LA Daily News


The Chicago White Sox, who are in town this week, could be a trade partner since they likely will be shopping for a center fielder, left fielder and shortstop this winter.
White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen is on record as saying he is a fan of Figgins. Before Monday's game, Guillen said the team will be on the market for speed, a sign that arbitration-eligible left fielder Scott Podsednik likely won't be tendered a contract this offseason. Figgins could be part of a package to land White Sox third baseman Joe Crede, who is arbitration eligible after this season and is http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifhttp://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifhttp://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gif http://m1.2mdn.net/951574/.gif (http://ad.doubleclick.net/click%3Bh=v7/345e/3/0/%2a/h%3B45038301%3B0-0%3B1%3B11615940%3B255-0/0%3B18058304/18076199/1%3B%3B%7Eaopt%3D2/0/39%3B%7Esscs%3D%3fhttp://production.langnews.com/jvu/lacomjobs/)http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifhttp://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifin the middle of a breakout season after a standout postseason. White Sox general manager Ken Williams has a tenuous relationship with Scott Boras

http://www.luminomagazine.com/2004.03/spotlight/officespace/images/mugs/samir.mug.jpg
This idea...it is horrible.:o:

Jjav829
09-12-2006, 04:10 PM
It might be safe to say that there are very few untouchables on this team. Konerko and Crede are a slight possibility if the shoe fits, uribe, garcia, vazquez, buehrle, any of the prospects, etc. I think that Dye, Garland, possibly Mccarthy, AJ, Iguchi are really the COMPLETE untouchables. Anyone else?

I don't think any of those players are untouchable. McCarthy is probably the closest to untouchable of the group simply due to this salary and age.

I doubt there is anything to this rumor. The Angels supposedly want to make a run at Tejada to play 3B in the offseason. I wouldn't rule out that Kenny could move Crede in the right deal, though.

gbergman
09-12-2006, 05:07 PM
Figgins for Pods. Yes

Figgins for Crede BIG NO

Figgins plus is he can play any position.

I don't see why everyone hates Brian Anderson. He has improved his offense since the start of the year, and plays exceptional defense.

Lip Man 1
09-12-2006, 06:40 PM
Two things are going to determine what Kenny think about Joe and his future:

1. Joe's health. Specifically his back. A back that the Sox are apparently pushing him to have micro-surgery on.

2. The chances of working out a long term deal with Scott Boras. (Appears unlikely. Boras' clients 95% of the time test the free agent market.)

I personally would consider a Crede for Figgens, Scott Shields and a top minor leaguer. Mack could take over 3rd base on either a permanent basis or until Fields is deemed ready.

Lip

Tragg
09-12-2006, 07:16 PM
I personally would consider a Crede for Figgens, Scott Shields and a top minor leaguer. Mack could take over 3rd base on either a permanent basis or until Fields is deemed ready.

Lip
I would consider trading him too...but not for Figgins. Figgins is like a super Rob M, as best I can tell...utility ballplayer, really.

thomas35forever
09-12-2006, 08:08 PM
Hell no. Crede stays right where he is. We need him.

chisox59
09-12-2006, 08:24 PM
SI's Truth and Rumors has one about Crede being shopped to the Angels.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/scorecard/09/12/truth.rumors.mlb/index.html

The Dude
09-12-2006, 08:25 PM
SI's Truth and Rumors has one about Crede being shopped to the Angels.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/scorecard/09/12/truth.rumors.mlb/index.html

Hey dude, what's the score?

Myrtle72
09-12-2006, 08:32 PM
There is a similar thread in "What's the Score?"

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=78651

buehrle4cy05
09-12-2006, 08:34 PM
There is one man who I would be willing to trade Crede for.

His name starts with C and ends with arl Crawford.

chisox59
09-12-2006, 08:35 PM
Sorry...didn't read that thread yet.

INSox56
09-12-2006, 08:51 PM
What does everyone think of Swisher as a possibility in left. I love the guy for some reason, wish we could get him over here. (btw, just watched him throw out Morneau at the plate on a fly to mid-deep left...like to see any of our OFers do that including Dye even though he's got a nice arm)

just wish he could get is damn avg up

aryzner
09-12-2006, 08:59 PM
A Figgins/Pods deal sounds reasonable.

But to me, trading Crede is just downright stupid. YES I am a big fan of Crede, he is probably my favorite player on the team... so sure I have my bias. BUT after all he's done for the Sox and the fact that he is only getting better (this is his first year flirting with a .300 batting avg, is it not?), the Sox should keep him around for a few more years at least.

MDF3530
09-12-2006, 09:00 PM
Figgins=Blacksednik.

drewcifer
09-12-2006, 10:12 PM
A Figgins/Pods deal sounds reasonable.


Why? Why does that make sense?

sullythered
09-12-2006, 10:17 PM
Why does anybody want Chone? And why are we afraid of "arbitration eligibility" after a season in which we will out-draw the Cubs and the Red Sox? And don't give me the "we need to make room for Fields" bull****. Joe is still young, and a prospect is a prospect is a prospect.

Joe goes nowhere.

Dan Mega
09-12-2006, 10:18 PM
Unless the Twins are willing to give up Santana straight up for Crede- no thanks. Boo urns.

BadBobbyJenks
09-13-2006, 08:47 PM
Crede is a superior hitter and fielder.
Crede for Figgins would be ridiculous.



OBVIOUSLY, this would not be a straight up trade

chisoxfanatic
09-13-2006, 09:48 PM
The only two guys I'll take for OF are Matthews and Crawford (stats are nearly identical, except for SB). Next?

tick53
09-13-2006, 10:58 PM
This is pure BS. C'mon Sox front office, you won world series last year and you're going to draw 3 million fans this year along with this $$$$ from marketing sales. The org has to get over this "Scott Boras thing" and learn to deal with him. It's a fact of life in all sports. Boras gets the top talent and that's whats required to continue to compete these days.

Crede is a home grown fan favorite who we as loyal Sox fans have watched him come in to his own. Don't do anything stupid. Crede is the best 3rd baseman in the AL. Let's not piss that away and let another have him when he has his MVP season.

Grzegorz
09-13-2006, 11:07 PM
I'd rather see KW aim higher. Personally I'd rather sell the farm for Crawford if Tampa would be willing, which they probably won't be. I'd trade Brandon and a midlevel prospect or two for him in a heartbeat.

Crawford had better be able to pitch.

The lack of consistent starting pitching hurt this team this year more than any other commodity. Trading an arm necessitates a deal for an arm.

chisoxfanatic
09-14-2006, 02:41 PM
The org has to get over this "Scott Boras thing" and learn to deal with him. It's a fact of life in all sports. Boras gets the top talent and that's whats required to continue to compete these days.

I thought I heard somewhere (maybe even a poster here) that Crede might switch agents if Boras gives the Sox too much trouble. Translation: Crede wants to stay here.

Flight #24
09-14-2006, 03:01 PM
This is pure BS. C'mon Sox front office, you won world series last year and you're going to draw 3 million fans this year along with this $$$$ from marketing sales. The org has to get over this "Scott Boras thing" and learn to deal with him. It's a fact of life in all sports. Boras gets the top talent and that's whats required to continue to compete these days.

Crede is a home grown fan favorite who we as loyal Sox fans have watched him come in to his own. Don't do anything stupid. Crede is the best 3rd baseman in the AL. Let's not piss that away and let another have him when he has his MVP season.

Before crying at the Sox FO, the only source to this is the LA Daily News, which doesn't actually cite any source, but merely parrots the old "arb-eligible.....Boras......bad for Sox....hey, we'd like to get a guy like Crede!" already-debunked-conventional-wisdom.

The Sox have one problem with Boras: he lies. All parties involved have said they have no issue dealing with each other (with JR saying that as long as you realize he lies, you'll be OK). Arbitration is not a scenario in which Boras' lies are of use. And to top it off, Joe wants to stay and has said he'd change representation if he thought Boras wasn't on board with that.

There is not one. Repeat: not one piece of evidence that points towards the Sox trying to dump Crede in the offseason. On the contrary, if they were even considering it, do you really think they'd be making such large & public plans for Fields to play the OF? Instead, wouldn't they want him to focus on improving his 3B D as much as possible? That tells you what they think about there being any room for a starting 3B on this team (and it ain't Mack/Ozuna).

BigPapaPump
09-14-2006, 03:02 PM
I love Crede and would love for him to stay in a Sox uniform, however, is it possible that this is going to be his career year and his trade value may never be higher? I could care less about Chone Figgins and particuarly don't want him striking out for the Sox, but there would be plenty of other suitors for a player the caliber of Joe. I think that holding on to players too long cause of fan loyalty is bad for business in the long run. Just look at the Atlanta Braves, keeping key components and having interchangeable parts year in and year out.

soxinem1
09-14-2006, 03:20 PM
According to the LA Daily News


The Chicago White Sox, who are in town this week, could be a trade partner since they likely will be shopping for a center fielder, left fielder and shortstop this winter.
White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen is on record as saying he is a fan of Figgins. Before Monday's game, Guillen said the team will be on the market for speed, a sign that arbitration-eligible left fielder Scott Podsednik likely won't be tendered a contract this offseason. Figgins could be part of a package to land White Sox third baseman Joe Crede, who is arbitration eligible after this season and is http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifhttp://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifhttp://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gif http://m1.2mdn.net/951574/.gif (http://ad.doubleclick.net/click%3Bh=v7/345e/3/0/%2a/h%3B45038301%3B0-0%3B1%3B11615940%3B255-0/0%3B18058304/18076199/1%3B%3B%7Eaopt%3D2/0/39%3B%7Esscs%3D%3fhttp://production.langnews.com/jvu/lacomjobs/)http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifhttp://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifin the middle of a breakout season after a standout postseason. White Sox general manager Ken Williams has a tenuous relationship with Scott Boras

http://www.ravenblond.com/pgloeckner/images/benny.jpg

'Anyone who calls me with that type of proposal should be deported to Wrigley Field'.

Lip Man 1
09-14-2006, 03:31 PM
This might be of interest:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060912soxbrite,1,7016128.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Lip

Flight #24
09-14-2006, 04:07 PM
Boras took the time to clarify his relationship with the Sox, who haven't drafted amateur players he has advised recently because of stalled negotiations with Jeff Weaver, Bobby Hill and Bobby Seay.

"There are a lot of things written in Chicago that I don't have a full foundation for," Boras said. "Whenever I've called Jerry Reinsdorf, he has called me back. Whenever I've called [general manager] Ken Williams, he has called me.

Yet another refutation of the conventional wisdom. Again - in a free agent contract context, Boras has 2 primary tactics: Setting a luricrously high price, and lying. Neither helps much in arbitration because he can't go too high or he risks the arbitrator taking the lower team bid, and because it's fact-based. So there's no reason for a Boras client to have any greater or lesser chance of staying via arb than any other agent's client. It may make it harder to get a contract that avoids arb, but that's where Crede would potentially step in and make the decision.

Lip Man 1
09-14-2006, 09:33 PM
Flight:

I don't know if I completely agree with you. Boras is a businessman...what good would it do him to publicly rip Reinsdorf?

He's trying to get as many bidders for his clients as possible. Seems to me that if he answers back (for example Williams and Reinsdorf's comments about him in the past) it just fuels the situation and doesn't benefit him in the least. If Boras is a liar as Reinsdorf said then why couldn't he be lying about his 'relationship' with the front office?

Lip

esbrechtel
09-15-2006, 10:00 AM
sox fans are pretty spoiled right now with the third basemen we have...how many line drives are gobbled up over there? watch some of the other teams 3B crede saves a lot of hits with his D if fields had D like credes then ship him out....fact of the matter is, he doesnt why else would the sox be trying to get him to learn OF...trading crede for a package with figgins would be extremely foolish...at least with the rowand trade i felt that it would benefit the team...this would not

esbrechtel
09-15-2006, 10:14 AM
i usually like to read what this guy has to say and he discusses the figgins for crede trade....

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

mark2olson
09-15-2006, 10:31 AM
i usually like to read what this guy has to say and he discusses the figgins for crede trade....

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

This article rehashes and elaborates upon the article that Doug Padilla already published in the L.A. Daily News. The author speculates that this trade "could" happen; as Mr. Padilla did, the author does not cite one source who stated that this "will" happen. The only statement that I would agree with in this article, is the author's statement, "I really can't see Kenny Williams doing this..." This is, however, nothing but more speculation on the part of the author.

With regard to mlbtraderumors.com, Caveat emptor.

daveeym
09-15-2006, 10:47 AM
This article rehashes and elaborates upon the article that Doug Padilla already published in the L.A. Daily News. The author speculates that this trade "could" happen; as Mr. Padilla did, the author does not cite one source who stated that this "will" happen. The only statement that I would agree with in this article, is the author's statement, "I really can't see Kenny Williams doing this..." This is, however, nothing but more speculation on the part of the author.

With regard to mlbtraderumors.com, Caveat emptor. His source is the LA Daily News. All this schmuck does is troll the internet and repeat discussions from articles and message boards. He has no real sources.

Flight #24
09-15-2006, 11:20 AM
Flight:

I don't know if I completely agree with you. Boras is a businessman...what good would it do him to publicly rip Reinsdorf?

He's trying to get as many bidders for his clients as possible. Seems to me that if he answers back (for example Williams and Reinsdorf's comments about him in the past) it just fuels the situation and doesn't benefit him in the least. If Boras is a liar as Reinsdorf said then why couldn't he be lying about his 'relationship' with the front office?

Lip

It is possible that Boras is lying. It's also true that all parties involved have basically said the same thing: They have no problems dealing with each other, but sometimes they place different values on the players. The only additional comment is JR's "he lies, but as long as you know he lies, there's no problem" comment. Maybe they're all lying, but it seems pretty unlikely. Remember - the "Sox don't deal with Boras" point is media-generated, not something any of the principals involved have ever said.

The point is not will they sign Boras' FAs (they likely won't, but that's not because they won't deal with him, its' because he can't manipulate them into paying more than they think is appropriate). The point here is that none of the issues involved are ones that come up in arbitration. It doesn't matter if Boras says "well, there's a mystery team willing to offer Joe $1B over 3yrs". He's got to make a fact-based argument to an arbitrator, who makes the decision.

So there's absolutely no reason to think that because Boras is Crede's agent that they're somehow not simply going to go to arbitration. They may think he's going to get too expensive in arb, but that's got little to nothing to do with who the agent is.

daveeym
09-15-2006, 11:34 AM
It is possible that Boras is lying. It's also true that all parties involved have basically said the same thing: They have no problems dealing with each other, but sometimes they place different values on the players. The only additional comment is JR's "he lies, but as long as you know he lies, there's no problem" comment. Maybe they're all lying, but it seems pretty unlikely. Remember - the "Sox don't deal with Boras" point is media-generated, not something any of the principals involved have ever said.

The point is not will they sign Boras' FAs (they likely won't, but that's not because they won't deal with him, its' because he can't manipulate them into paying more than they think is appropriate). The point here is that none of the issues involved are ones that come up in arbitration. It doesn't matter if Boras says "well, there's a mystery team willing to offer Joe $1B over 3yrs". He's got to make a fact-based argument to an arbitrator, who makes the decision.

So there's absolutely no reason to think that because Boras is Crede's agent that they're somehow not simply going to go to arbitration. They may think he's going to get too expensive in arb, but that's got little to nothing to do with who the agent is. Correct but it may make the Sox say Crede's value is extremely high right now and if the right deal is there, they're going to move him.

southside rocks
09-15-2006, 03:45 PM
Correct but it may make the Sox say Crede's value is extremely high right now and if the right deal is there, they're going to move him.

If the Sox trade Crede, it won't be because his agent is Scott Boras. KW has his likes and dislikes, but he's not stupid, and to get rid of a top-ranked player because you dislike the agent who represents him is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Which I have never seen KW do in all his time as GM of the Sox.

If the Sox trade Crede, it will be because (a) they got something incredible in return for him, like Johan Santana (not likely!) or (b) because they predict that his back will impair his future performance. Not because of Scott Boras.

Sheesh, that's a sound bite that just won't go away! :tongue:

INSox56
09-15-2006, 04:32 PM
I don't even think it's a dislike of Boras, really. I think it's just that Boras grossly overvalues his clients and always asks for too much. They never/usually never agree on contracts due to the money, not due to Kenny thinking he's a smarmy asshat.

daveeym
09-15-2006, 05:09 PM
If the Sox trade Crede, it won't be because his agent is Scott Boras. KW has his likes and dislikes, but he's not stupid, and to get rid of a top-ranked player because you dislike the agent who represents him is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Which I have never seen KW do in all his time as GM of the Sox.

If the Sox trade Crede, it will be because (a) they got something incredible in return for him, like Johan Santana (not likely!) or (b) because they predict that his back will impair his future performance. Not because of Scott Boras.

Sheesh, that's a sound bite that just won't go away! :tongue: If they trade crede boras will be one factor of many as to why they traded him. Thinking otherwise is foolish.

Jjav829
09-16-2006, 04:53 PM
If the Sox trade Crede, it won't be because his agent is Scott Boras. KW has his likes and dislikes, but he's not stupid, and to get rid of a top-ranked player because you dislike the agent who represents him is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Which I have never seen KW do in all his time as GM of the Sox.

If the Sox trade Crede, it will be because (a) they got something incredible in return for him, like Johan Santana (not likely!) or (b) because they predict that his back will impair his future performance. Not because of Scott Boras.

Sheesh, that's a sound bite that just won't go away! :tongue:

I think there is actually a very solid argument to be made for trading Crede without factoring in Boras. I'll make that argument. Not that I agree with it, but I think you can say this is a reasonable argument for trading Crede.

Yes, Crede is the top defensive 3B in baseball, extremely clutch and just coming into his own as a hitter. However, he's also about to be a free agent and regardless of his agent, he is going to be making good money soon. This team already has a lot of money invested into Konerko and Thome, and possibly Dye very soon. The Sox top prospect also happens to be a 3B who would come a lot cheaper, could put up numbers not far off from Crede and, by most accounts, has made great strides defensively.

One of the issues with this team is a lack of speed. The 3-7 hitters (Dye, Thome, Konerko, Pierzynski and Crede) might be the slowest 3-7 in baseball. Fields would add more speed to a team that is lacking in that area. And there is always the issue with Crede's back. Committing to Crede with a long-term contact also means relying on his back to hold up, something that could be an issue.

Finally, Crede has had a tremendous 2006 season. With the questions surrounding him, and with a capable replacement ready, now could be an ideal "sell high" period. Perhaps Crede and a pitcher could bring back a great package including a leadoff hitter, front-line pitcher, etc.

I'm not saying I agree with that, but I think that would be the argument for trading Crede, not because his agent is Boras. I do think that money is an issue, regardless of his agent.

Personally, I would prefer to hold on to Crede and keep him around for a while. But I can see the argument for making a trade.

Flight #24
09-16-2006, 05:05 PM
I think there is actually a very solid argument to be made for trading Crede without factoring in Boras. I'll make that argument. Not that I agree with it, but I think you can say this is a reasonable argument for trading Crede.



So basically, the argument is that you have Fields, he'll be priced out of the Sox range when he hits FA, and you can get more for him by dealing him now than later.

IMO the FA point is significantly diminished because he's not an FA until after 2 more years (2008). I'm also of the opinion that you can find a decent leadoff guy with speed to play LF (the easiest position to fill) without too much trouble (Dave Roberts comes to mind - or plug in Fields in LF & go get a decent speed SS).

Then you factor in that Dye & Thome are getting older and in 2 years are likely to be on the downswing (plus, IIRC Thome's deal is up then and Dye's is up after next year). So when Crede gets significantly more expensive, you shed some other big deals. And you don't have to worry as much about replacing a major power source in 2 years.

Bottom line: unless the Sox are completely blown away with a deal, there's no good rationale for trading Joe this offseason. By that I mean a Mike Young/Carl Crawford plus good young pitching type of deal.

Much easier and IMO better would be to try and trade for Vizquel, have him lead off and replace Uribe, then plug Fields into LF after a winter playing it in Venezuela. Omar-Iguchi-Dye-Thome-Konerko-Crede-AJ-BA-Fields is a pretty good top to bottom lineup and a good defensive team as well.

esbrechtel
09-21-2006, 06:08 PM
there was an article in the trib today that said ozzie was actively campaigning to get JC the GG...anyone question his motives? up his trade value maybe....i still have a hard time believing that crede is on his way out

MarySwiss
09-21-2006, 06:10 PM
there was an article in the trib today that said ozzie was actively campaigning to get JC the GG...anyone question his motives? up his trade value maybe....i still have a hard time believing that crede is on his way out
Call me naive, but I think Ozzie just thinks Joe deserves it. :smile:

SABRSox
09-21-2006, 06:17 PM
According to the LA Daily News


The Chicago White Sox, who are in town this week, could be a trade partner since they likely will be shopping for a center fielder, left fielder and shortstop this winter.
White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen is on record as saying he is a fan of Figgins. Before Monday's game, Guillen said the team will be on the market for speed, a sign that arbitration-eligible left fielder Scott Podsednik likely won't be tendered a contract this offseason. Figgins could be part of a package to land White Sox third baseman Joe Crede, who is arbitration eligible after this season and is http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifhttp://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifhttp://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gif http://m1.2mdn.net/951574/.gif (http://ad.doubleclick.net/click%3Bh=v7/345e/3/0/%2a/h%3B45038301%3B0-0%3B1%3B11615940%3B255-0/0%3B18058304/18076199/1%3B%3B%7Eaopt%3D2/0/39%3B%7Esscs%3D%3fhttp://production.langnews.com/jvu/lacomjobs/)http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifhttp://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/std/clear.gifin the middle of a breakout season after a standout postseason. White Sox general manager Ken Williams has a tenuous relationship with Scott Boras

The LA Daily News also said today that the Angels want to trade for Alex Rodriguez. It's a bull**** article, from a bull**** newspaper.

DaleJRFan
09-21-2006, 06:52 PM
Without getting into a big-huge debate over this, I can't understand moving Crede, for whom the Sox have been ever-so patient with as they "waited" for him to come around - only to replace him with a so-so defensive 3B who hasn't proven anything at the MLB level.

Does anyone know for sure that Fields will be a 300/30/100 guy with gold glove defense like Crede? I find it hard to believe, that even if Fields comes close to his ceiling in the first 2 or 3 years that he could come even close to Crede's value to the team.

When Crede was called up, every Sox fan I talked to spoke of Crede as if he was a sure thing. He was MVP at every minor league level that he played. He had a great September when he was called up and then he hit 240 for 4 years. Do we know for sure that Fields won't do the same? He's had one solid year at AAA. That proves nothing other than that he improved from 2004 and that he can hit a AAA fastball.

The problem I have here, isn't with the notion of trading Crede. My problem is that Mackowiak was brought here, allegedly, to protect Crede's health/back. When he needed a day off, Mackowiak was here to fill in. But instead, Crede played every day while Ozzie ****ed around with Mackowiak in centerfield. Had Crede been handled appropriately and maybe given a few more days off, his bulky back wouldn't be an issue. Its obvious watching Joe the past two weeks that he is far from 100%.

MadetoOrta
09-21-2006, 06:57 PM
So.....let me get this right .......the Sox are sending Fields to winter ball specifically to play leftfield and then they're trading Crede? Huh?

Joe's going nowhere folks. He's more of a cornerstone than Paulie.

Relax. Joe's here for the long term.

The Dude
09-21-2006, 07:09 PM
So.....let me get this right .......the Sox are sending Fields to winter ball specifically to play leftfield and then they're trading Crede? Huh?

Joe's going nowhere folks. He's more of a cornerstone than Paulie.

Relax. Joe's here for the long term.

Yes exactly!
:threadblows:

Domeshot17
09-21-2006, 07:43 PM
First, I would not call Joe Crede a cornerstone. As good as he is, I dont know for sure if I can confidently say he will always be a 290-25-70 guy. He will always have a tremendous glove.

ALOT will come in to Crede coming or going. I expect major changes in the offseason. The first might be Sinora Buehlre Hello Barry Zito. I think Freddy could go, but the way he finished up the year, he might have pitched his way back on to the team. Buehlre makes the most sense. Always an overachiever, a guy who would give you a 3.5 era on any given year but his opponents always hit .270ish off him. Maybe it caught up to him. Trade Buehlre Owens and Cotts to the Cardinals for Chris Carpenter.

I also think you might see Brian Anderson dealt. Ozzie LOVES sweeney and he has looked good defensively in CF. Brian might be the least talented out of Sweeney himself and Fields.

We have a TON of trading chips. I think what would REALLLLLLYYYY do wonders for this team is adding a good leadoff hitter ( and i dont think dave roberts is that). I would love to get Jaun Pierre or a short stop with good speed (mike young is on the trading block in texas). Then hit anderson 2 and iguchi lower in the lineup. He would break up the all or nothing hitters we have in the middle. Fields could hit 8 and have sweeney hit 9. I really like it.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-22-2006, 09:24 PM
So.....let me get this right .......the Sox are sending Fields to winter ball specifically to play leftfield and then they're trading Crede? Huh?

Joe's going nowhere folks. He's more of a cornerstone than Paulie.

Relax. Joe's here for the long term.

If the Sox want to get rid of a tortoise in the middle of the lineup, I can make the argument that the Sox trade Konerko and move Crede into the 5 hole. Crede's numbers there would be at least as good as Konerko's if Crede bats fifth.

Frater Perdurabo
09-22-2006, 10:21 PM
If the Sox want to get rid of a tortoise in the middle of the lineup, I can make the argument that the Sox trade Konerko and move Crede into the 5 hole. Crede's numbers there would be at least as good as Konerko's if Crede bats fifth.

I agree. Let's examine why:

Crede's 3B defense can't be replaced, and it has greater value to the Sox than most other teams because of the Sox having so many ground ball starting pitchers. But his offensive production has nearly matched Konerko's this year. He could bat fifth and would see good pitches to hit batting behind Dye and Thome. Trading Crede is a sure-fire way to make Garland a .500 pitcher again.

Thome's left-handed bat is more rare than a right-handed bat, and has particular value to the Sox because they have no other legitimate left-handed power threat.

Dye's RF defense cannot be easily replaced, and his bat cannot be replaced for the price of the option for which the Sox hold on him for 2007.

Although AJ is not a great defensive catcher, he does have plus value to the Sox for his ability to handle the pitchers and his left-handed bat for average allows the Sox to play a great defender at another position even if that player's bat isn't All-Star caliber. He has more value to the Sox than most other teams.

Any one of the Sox starters plus Jenks, Thornton, McDougal and McCarthy have trade value, but there's no reason for the Sox to trade more than one of the starting five. The rest of the bullpen guys have very little trade value.

After this season, Pods has very little trade value. Uribe's trade value has fallen, too, although his ability to play shortstop has some value. Iguchi has some trade value, but the Sox have to reason to trade him at this point. Anderson and Sweeney are too young and cheap and have too much upside to trade. What could the Sox get back for Cintron and Mackowiak: Jeff Bajenaru and Damaso Marte? Gload also has limited trade value.

So, from a purely "on the field" analysis, and knowing that the Sox can't trade a bunch of low-value players for one or two stars (this isn't PlayStation after all), it makes the most sense for the Sox to shop Konerko. They could get back serious talent in return while freeing up payroll to shore up the bullpen and bench. He's coming off a "career year" (really the third such year in a row) and has value to other teams (especially a team desperate for power like the Angels). Meanwhile, he brings no unique "skills" to the Sox that other players already on the roster can't replace.

esbrechtel
09-25-2006, 09:25 AM
i dont see the sox shopping paulie either....he took a pay cut to come back i dont see the sox sticking it to him by shipping him off to LA plus hes the captian, a leader in the clubhouse and despite all the anti paulie people on the board i still think he is a hell of a competitor and unlike uribe and garcia every game is big and important to him...