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View Full Version : 2002 White Sox VS. 2002 Cubs: Starting Line-Up


beausox
02-26-2002, 08:41 PM
How we compare position by position

C-Sandy Alomar Jr. vs. Todd Hundley

Hundley has to be the clear winner because of what he can do. However both catchers are former stars in the twilight of their careers. Both are overpaid and Hundley is a lot worse than Alomar defensively. It really boils down to back-ups and I'll take Mark Johnson over Girardi or Machado anyday.

1B-Konerko vs. McGriff

McGriff is on his way down, Konerko on his way up. Both had similar stats last year, Konerko is younger and will outperform McGriff this year. Konerko is also cheaper. I wouldn't want to see these two compete in a foot race.

2B-Durham vs. DeShields

The Cubs could also end up starting Bobby Hill or Chris Stynes. Durham has clearly got superior skills than all three at this point. However, Hill may end up having a better career than Durham.

SS-Royce Clayton vs. Alex Gonzalez

Beleive it or not Clayton is better. Gonzalez feels cheated if he dosen't get his hacks up their resulting in a refusal to walk. Clayton has a higher OBP, SLG %, and OPS. Both are similar defensively. Gonzalez is younger but also more expenisve.

3B-Jose Valentin vs. Bill Mueller

Mueller is a 3B who hits like a SS, Valentin is a SS that hits like a 3B. While this says something about the faults of both organizations once again the White Sox have the better player.

LF-Moises Alou vs. Carlos Lee

Alou is 36 and the Cubs have him till he's 39. He MAY, and I wouldn't put to much money on it,outperform Lee next year, but in three years, Lee will be the best LF in Chicago. We won't discuss defense.

CF-Kenny Lofton vs. Corey Patterson

The exact opposite of the LF situation. Lofton will outperform Patterson this year, Pattersop will be outperforming Lofton 3 years from now. A lot depends on which variation of these two shows up this year. For 2002, I'd bet that Lofton has the better season.

RF-Sammy Sosa vs. Magglio Ordonez

Both are great players, all-stars, perenial MVP candidates, franchise cornerstone. Sosa puts up better stats, but any team would be happy to have either if these guys.

By my count the Cubs only have one position player that is better than the Sox position player at that position (Sosa over Ordonez). Alou and Hundley may out perfomr Lee and Alomar but I'll take my chances with who we have. I'm glad to be a south sider.

I will be doing five more of these, comparing benches, rotations, bullpens, coaching staffs, and farm systems.

bc2k
02-27-2002, 01:22 AM
Wow! If you're doing 5 more of these, I better get cracking on this one asap.

Catcher: EVEN. Hundley is horrendous although I'm sure he will be slightly better this year. He cannot get any worse, i think!? I like Johnson and Girardi and Machado.

First Base: KONERKO WINNER. What is the Cubs record after they got McGriff? Yeah, and Paulie is much better than the Crime Dog. McGriff cannot pick anything over at first, Paulie is very impressive in that part of the game.

Second Base: EVEN: Hill can be good, and I hate Durham so...

Third Base: VALENTIN WINNER. Mueller is the manos of the Cubs. I really like Mueller's play but Valentin is the better player.

Shortstop: EVEN. If second-half 2001 Clayton shows up, he wins hands down.

Left Field: ALOU. Alou is a pure hitter. And he is fantastic with men on base. But Carlos will have improved stats hitting seventh. Look for Carlos to win by default when Alou misses 52 games of the season with a torn trachea.

Center Field: LOFTON. No doubt about it. Cough, prospect, cough, bust, cough, baseball isn't played on paper, cough, laugh.

Right Field: SOSA. Despite swinging for the fences, he really impressed me last year with his defense (even though he made unnecessary diving plays for the camera) and his team attitude.

Positional totals: Sox 3, Cubs 2, pick your poison 3.
P.S. I hate the Cubs but I won't let that cloud my decisions on what I think of their good players.

THE_HOOTER
02-27-2002, 12:05 PM
I really like the way you explained that bc2k.

This needs to be filled out on stats and merit, not on who you like.

Cathcer: Even- Both Clubs are struggling, although I like M. Johnson's effort and attitude.

1base: Konerko- similar stats and a whole lot younger which makes Knoerko more reliable.

2base If I had my choice, Durham is my pick. He is the best player out of the choices, although B. Hill should be comparable down the road.

SS Gonzalez is my pick. He does hack away, but is a good young professional who can blend in to a clubhouse. Clayton refuses to fit in anywhere. Both are above average with the glove.

3Base Even. Mueller and Valentin are crucial to the success of each ballclub. Last year when the Cubs were in 1st, Mueller was one of the catalysts. We all remember how important Jose was in 2000 with game after game hits in crucial spots. Stat-wise I would go with Valentin, but due to injuries and errors, I see them as even.

RField I take Sosa over Ordonez only because Sammy could be the best hitter in baseball currently. His play last year was amazing, and only a handful of guys are above Ordonez, who seems to do everything right. Sosa certainly is obnoxious and arrogant but his stats don't lie-he is a force at the plate.

CF Lofton is my pick because of his OBP and fielding. Patterson has not done anything yet to challenge.

LField I will take Alou. Anybody who would take CLee over Alou is on crack. If you are going for the gusto, Alou is your man for a fyear or two. Wasn't he near or in the batting title lead for most of the year? I don't care weher he plays, the guy can hit, and is a gamer. CLee can hit as well, coming up with some big hits for us over the past two years. Alou is an All-Star, CLee is not there yet.

Both lineups are deep and powerful to say the least. The Cubs need to worry about health becuase their age dilemma. The Sox need to get people on base so Thomas, Ordonez, Konerko, and Lee can drive them in.

Pretty even I'd say.

RichH55
02-27-2002, 04:22 PM
3Base Even. Mueller and Valentin are crucial to the success of each ballclub. Last year when the Cubs were in 1st, Mueller was one of the catalysts. We all remember how important Jose was in 2000 with game after game hits in crucial spots. Stat-wise I would go with Valentin, but due to injuries and errors, I see them as even.

You do know that Mueller missed much of last year with an injury right? When both are playing their A game there is little question Manos is more valuble...though he would look better at SS

RichH55
02-27-2002, 04:23 PM
Isnt it sad how in the entire city of Chicago there isn't a decent catcher? Though Mark Johnson is starting to grow on me without doing anything(damn message board groupthink)..I'm not ready to give up on Paul or Olivio yet

pearso66
02-27-2002, 09:38 PM
on machado, he was once on our team, in the minors, supposed to be our next great catcher, along with snopek as our next great ss. neither worked, also last year, i dont know if he still is, but snopek was in the cubs minor league system

Vsahajpal
02-27-2002, 09:50 PM
I have to admit, I cringed when I saw this thread. I assumed everyone would take Ordonez over Sosa, Lee over Alou, Alomar over Hundley, etc. but I couldn't be more wrong. I guess I shouldn't be all that shocked, Sox fans are seemingly a lot more intelligent and cognizant than most (especially cub fans)...


Damn it, you're supposed to be totally biased!

Jerry_Manuel
02-27-2002, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
I have to admit, I cringed when I saw this thread. I assumed everyone would take Ordonez over Sosa, Lee over Alou, Alomar over Hundley, etc. but I couldn't be more wrong. I guess I shouldn't be all that shocked, Sox fans are seemingly a lot more intelligent and cognizant than most (especially cub fans)...

Damn it, you're supposed to be totally biased!

Yes, we're biased, but not stupid. :smile:

Quick Vic, Baylor or Manuel? :D:

Vsahajpal
02-27-2002, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Yes, we're biased, but not stupid. :smile:

Quick Vic, Baylor or Manuel? :D:

Manuel, in a landslide


Nardi or Rothschild? :D:

Daver
02-27-2002, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


Manuel, in a landslide


Nardi or Rothschild? :D:

Neither.Although I would not try and tar and feather Rothscild.

Jerry_Manuel
02-27-2002, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Manuel, in a landslide

Nardi or Rothschild? :D:

:baylor
Where's the love?


As for the pitching coaches, if that's not being the tallest midget, I don't know what is.

kermittheefrog
02-27-2002, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


Manuel, in a landslide


Nardi or Rothschild? :D:

You seem to forget as a pitching coach Rothschild was good. he presided over a World Series ballclub and more importantly a number of pitchers found themselves so to speak under Rothschild. Before coming to Florida, Al Leiter and Kevin Brown weren't aces before they were with the Marlins. Both of them pretty much came to Florida had career years and didn't turn back. Rothschild developed Livan Hernandez too and got good work from Tony Saunders before his arm was broken. I'd take Rothschild over Nardi and I'm not even one of the guys begging for Nardi's head on a pole.

RichH55
02-28-2002, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


You seem to forget as a pitching coach Rothschild was good. he presided over a World Series ballclub and more importantly a number of pitchers found themselves so to speak under Rothschild. Before coming to Florida, Al Leiter and Kevin Brown weren't aces before they were with the Marlins. Both of them pretty much came to Florida had career years and didn't turn back. Rothschild developed Livan Hernandez too and got good work from Tony Saunders before his arm was broken. I'd take Rothschild over Nardi and I'm not even one of the guys begging for Nardi's head on a pole.

I'm agreeing with Kermit here, but you have to wonder what the effect on no Oscar will be.....What he did with that staff last year just screamed smoke and mirrors

Vsahajpal
02-28-2002, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


You seem to forget as a pitching coach Rothschild was good. he presided over a World Series ballclub and more importantly a number of pitchers found themselves so to speak under Rothschild. Before coming to Florida, Al Leiter and Kevin Brown weren't aces before they were with the Marlins. Both of them pretty much came to Florida had career years and didn't turn back. Rothschild developed Livan Hernandez too and got good work from Tony Saunders before his arm was broken. I'd take Rothschild over Nardi and I'm not even one of the guys begging for Nardi's head on a pole.

I totally agree, kermit. I wasn't knocking Rothschild; I'm ecstatic he's our pitching coach.

RichH55
02-28-2002, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


I totally agree, kermit. I wasn't knocking Rothschild; I'm ecstatic he's our pitching coach.

Despite Rothchild's expierence and some of the personality problems of Oscar, do you expect so many of the great years you had last year? I mean it certainly wasn't Baylor getting those years out of the pitchers

Vsahajpal
02-28-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by RichH55


Despite Rothchild's expierence and some of the personality problems of Oscar, do you expect so many of the great years you had last year? I mean it certainly wasn't Baylor getting those years out of the pitchers

I think Lieber will be just as good if not better, and Wood, Cruz, Zambrano, Farnsworth, Duncan, and Chiasson will all improve. I don't expect much from Jeff Fassero; Bere and Tavarez are kind of flaky, so I have my fingers crossed in hopes that they can put up numbers resembling those of a year ago. They have a lot of question marks, no doubt. Their bullpen isn't as strong, and it'll be awfully young, apart from Fassero and Flash.

RichH55
02-28-2002, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


I think Lieber will be just as good if not better, and Wood, Cruz, Zambrano, Farnsworth, Duncan, and Chiasson will all improve. I don't expect much from Jeff Fassero; Bere and Tavarez are kind of flaky, so I have my fingers crossed in hopes that they can put up numbers resembling those of a year ago. They have a lot of question marks, no doubt. Their bullpen isn't as strong, and it'll be awfully young, apart from Fassero and Flash.


I was reading the new Baseball Prospectus(shameless plug) and they see rather high on Cruz and Farnsworth, but noted a few potential problems with Lieber(not to mention the fact that he seemed like a big Oscar guy anyway)...Lieber was a guy who I always begrudingly liked, but i think expecting better than 20 from him is a bit much

Vsahajpal
02-28-2002, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by RichH55



I was reading the new Baseball Prospectus(shameless plug) and they see rather high on Cruz and Farnsworth, but noted a few potential problems with Lieber(not to mention the fact that he seemed like a big Oscar guy anyway)...Lieber was a guy who I always begrudingly liked, but i think expecting better than 20 from him is a bit much

I don't think he'll surpass 20 wins, but as Lieber notes, the Cubs won 25 of his 35 starts, and I think that if his peripheral stats get better, they should be able to better that. Lefthanders hit him pretty well last year, hopefully that's not the case. He's a workhorse, and so people assume that'll get to him eventually; however he doesn't waste any pitches, similar to Maddux, who always tops 200 innings.

RichH55
02-28-2002, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


I don't think he'll surpass 20 wins, but as Lieber notes, the Cubs won 25 of his 35 starts, and I think that if his peripheral stats get better, they should be able to better that. Lefthanders hit him pretty well last year, hopefully that's not the case. He's a workhorse, and so people assume that'll get to him eventually; however he doesn't waste any pitches, similar to Maddux, who always tops 200 innings.
Well BP notes his declining K rate, that he cant get lefties out, and that the unbalanced schuedle helped him as he won against the Reds 5 times.......all point to a worse 2002 according to them and they are fans of his....I am too, but 20 wins or 25 of 35 isnt time to expect improvement