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doctor30th
02-26-2002, 07:39 PM
I read that Johnson and Paul are both out of options. So if one doesn't make the team, he has to clear waivers to get back to AAA.

What do you think are Paul's Chances of making it through Waivers?

What do you think are Johnson's Chances of making it through Waviers?

I think there is a pretty good chance a team would claim either one. A team in the NL that needs a good defensive Catcher would take Johnson and a team that needed a speedy, versitle bench catcher player who can Catch and play several other position would take Paul.

Daver
02-26-2002, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
I read that Johnson and Paul are both out of options. So if one doesn't make the team, he has to clear waivers to get back to AAA.

What do you think are Paul's Chances of making it through Waivers?

What do you think are Johnson's Chances of making it through Waviers?

I think there is a pretty good chance a team would claim either one. A team in the NL that needs a good defensive Catcher would take Johnson and a team that needed a speedy, versitle bench catcher player who can Catch and play several other position would take Paul.

Neither one would clear waivers.

doctor30th
02-26-2002, 07:44 PM
I heard on ESPN today that Paul can play 3rd as well as catch.

We've seen him play Left (and he got a put out there too). SO Paul can Catch, Play Corner outfield, and Play 3rd and lst (presumably). He can also Run (be a pinch Runner).

He is very well suited for the NL as well. Or a team that needs a Utility player.

Daver
02-26-2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
I heard on ESPN today that Paul can play 3rd as well as catch.


Don't trust everything you hear.

Pete_SSAC
02-26-2002, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
I heard on ESPN today that Paul can play 3rd as well as catch.

Ahhhh yes, what we need. Another person that can play third base. Man, if he could play outfield, he would be GOLDEN!

- Pete

Daver
02-26-2002, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Pete_SSAC


Ahhhh yes, what we need. Another person that can play third base. Man, if he could play outfield, he would be GOLDEN!

- Pete

If Carlos Lee can wander aimlessly about in LF why can't Josh?

delben91
02-26-2002, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by daver


If Carlos Lee can wander aimlessly about in LF why can't Josh?

Because he's too versatile to just play one position at a time of course! I say put him at catcher, 3rd, and left all in the same inning!

:jerry
"Good idea delben!"

Pete_SSAC
02-26-2002, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by daver


If Carlos Lee can wander aimlessly about in LF why can't Josh?

Why did I just get this mental image of Carlos grazing? Screw the horse, he's the cow.

:caballo
"Moooo"

- Pete

czalgosz
02-26-2002, 08:17 PM
Please, please, please, God, let Johnson make the team over Paul. That's all I ask, really.

bjmarte
02-26-2002, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Pete_SSAC


Why did I just get this mental image of Carlos grazing? Screw the horse, he's the cow.

:caballo
"Moooo"

- Pete
What is the spanish word for cow. If it sounds half as cool as El Caballo I say we make it stick.

kermittheefrog
02-26-2002, 08:19 PM
See this kind of thing is what's wrong with the world. We should have Johnson starting, Paul backing him up. Send Alomar to the damn minors.

Daver
02-26-2002, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
See this kind of thing is what's wrong with the world. We should have Johnson starting, Paul backing him up. Send Alomar to the damn minors.

Not a bad idea,he would refuse the assignment.

OfficerKarkovice
02-26-2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by bjmarte

What is the spanish word for cow. If it sounds half as cool as El Caballo I say we make it stick.

La vaca

Daver
02-26-2002, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice


La vaca

Thanx Kark.

Jerry_Manuel
02-26-2002, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
See this kind of thing is what's wrong with the world. We should have Johnson starting, Paul backing him up. Send Alomar to the damn minors.

Is the official start of the Save Josh Paul Bandwagon?

kermittheefrog
02-26-2002, 08:57 PM
Ya know I actually think Paul could make it through waivers, maybe Johnson too. Last year Bobby Estalella passed through waivers even though he had a 825 OPS in 2000. Ramon Castro pasted through waivers even though all he's done is plaster AAA pitching. So sometimes you wonder if major league teams even watch the waiver wire.

czalgosz
02-26-2002, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
sometimes you wonder if major league teams even watch the waiver wire.

Sometimes I wonder if there isn't an unspoken agreement about the waiver wire between GMs - like that if it's understood that a team still has a use for a player, other teams will let them send him down.

I have no proof of this, but it's just a feeling I have.

kermittheefrog
02-26-2002, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Sometimes I wonder if there isn't an unspoken agreement about the waiver wire between GMs - like that if it's understood that a team still has a use for a player, other teams will let them send him down.

I have no proof of this, but it's just a feeling I have.

I wouldn't go that far, I've seen some waiver swipes. Most noticably Tony Batista from the Blue Jays to the Orioles last year. Then again Syd Thrift and Gord Ash are special cases when it comes to major league GMs.

czalgosz
02-26-2002, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I wouldn't go that far, I've seen some waiver swipes. Most noticably Tony Batista from the Blue Jays to the Orioles last year. Then again Syd Thrift and Gord Ash are special cases when it comes to major league GMs.

That, and Tony Batista is beyond the "prospect" stage. There's limits to what you should ignore.

Anyway, I don't like Sandy Alomar either, but he's more valuable than Josh Paul, even with his injuries. I wouldn't be upset if Josh Paul leaves.

Cubbiesuck13
02-26-2002, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice


La vaca

not cool enough, the horse stays, my vote anyway. Besides i think he does a damn fine job in left. Despite everyones assumption, he is not that bad, he hustles, tries hard and has been at third his whole life. Two or three years he has been in Left, out of all his minor leauge and everything.

Daver
02-26-2002, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13


not cool enough, the horse stays, my vote anyway. Besides i think he does a damn fine job in left. Despite everyones assumption, he is not that bad, he hustles, tries hard and has been at third his whole life. Two or three years he has been in Left, out of all his minor leauge and everything.

I saw his efforts at third base,he is a worse infielder than he is an outfielder,he is the president of the Glove on the Head club.

kermittheefrog
02-26-2002, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


That, and Tony Batista is beyond the "prospect" stage. There's limits to what you should ignore.

Anyway, I don't like Sandy Alomar either, but he's more valuable than Josh Paul, even with his injuries. I wouldn't be upset if Josh Paul leaves.

Realistically Paul and Johnson are past the prospect stage too, they are 27 and 26 this year. Batista was 27 last year when he was swiped.

As for Paul versus Alomar. Paul's career 268/323/404 is better than Alomar over the last couple years who has hit 273/310/382. Throw in that Paul is much younger and could improve and I'd much rather see him on the team than Alomar. I am nowhere near being a Paul fan just sort of admitting he's not the worst option in the world.

czalgosz
02-26-2002, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Realistically Paul and Johnson are past the prospect stage too, they are 27 and 26 this year. Batista was 27 last year when he was swiped.

As for Paul versus Alomar. Paul's career 268/323/404 is better than Alomar over the last couple years who has hit 273/310/382. Throw in that Paul is much younger and could improve and I'd much rather see him on the team than Alomar. I am nowhere near being a Paul fan just sort of admitting he's not the worst option in the world.

Paul is a terrible defensive catcher. He has a weak arm, he has trouble blocking the plate, and I think he takes his signs from the dugout. He's a better hitter than Alomar or Johnson, but not enough better to justify his terrible defense. And I don't think that at 27 he'll suddenly learn a bunch of new defensive abilities.

I don't like to bash on Paul, as I understand that he's a nice guy and a local boy, to boot, but the fact remains that he doesn't belong behind the plate.

kermittheefrog
02-26-2002, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Paul is a terrible defensive catcher. He has a weak arm, he has trouble blocking the plate, and I think he takes his signs from the dugout. He's a better hitter than Alomar or Johnson, but not enough better to justify his terrible defense. And I don't think that at 27 he'll suddenly learn a bunch of new defensive abilities.

I don't like to bash on Paul, as I understand that he's a nice guy and a local boy, to boot, but the fact remains that he doesn't belong behind the plate.

I don't disagree with anthing you've said, I just think Alomar sucks more than Paul. I actually think Johnson is a better hitter because I think he's the only one in that group with a shot at posting a decent OBP.

bjmarte
02-27-2002, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13


not cool enough, the horse stays, my vote anyway. Besides i think he does a damn fine job in left. Despite everyones assumption, he is not that bad, he hustles, tries hard and has been at third his whole life. Two or three years he has been in Left, out of all his minor leauge and everything.

I'll leave it be for now but the first time he loses a ball in the sun this season while his sunglasses sit on his forehead I am pulling this back out.

RichH55
02-27-2002, 12:46 PM
Catcher is essentially a blackhole either way.......The idea of Johnson over Paul or vice-versa doesnt anger me ...the idea that they are the best options we have right now does anger me however

PaleHoseGeorge
02-27-2002, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I don't disagree with anthing you've said, I just think Alomar sucks more than Paul. I actually think Johnson is a better hitter because I think he's the only one in that group with a shot at posting a decent OBP.

LOL, another "world's tallest midget" debate! Naturally we're talking about the Sox' catching situation. For most of us, it's simply dismissed as an article of faith that there is absolutely nothing our team could do to improve ourselves after Charles Johnson left via free agency.

It's like the purple elephant in the room everyone is pretending not to notice. Acquiring Sandy Alomar mostly succeeded in adding salary to the payroll KW now complains about as being too expensive. I guess he's forgotten who it was that spent over $6 million to acquire a #8 and #9 hitter last winter.

I dunno. I just dunno...

hold2dibber
02-27-2002, 01:27 PM
Just imagine how lethal the lineup would look right now if we were using the $10 million per year we're spending on Choice and Alomar to pay CJ instead:

CF Lofton
2B Durham
DH Thomas
RF Ordonez
1B Konerko
SS Valentin
C Johnson
LF Lee
3B Crede

Yowza!

hold2dibber
02-27-2002, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Just imagine how lethal the lineup would look right now if we were using the $10 million per year we're spending on Choice and Alomar to pay CJ instead:

CF Lofton
2B Durham
DH Thomas
RF Ordonez
1B Konerko
SS Valentin
C Johnson
LF Lee
3B Crede

Yowza!

Charles Johnson at Catcher, that is, not Mark.

doctor30th
02-27-2002, 01:49 PM
Too bad charles Johnson stinks. He's not worth 10 million for 5 years like he wanted.

I would never give him a 5 year deal tying up 10 million a year for all that time.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-27-2002, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Just imagine how lethal the lineup would look right now if we were using the $10 million per year we're spending on Choice and Alomar to pay CJ instead:

CF Lofton
2B Durham
DH Thomas
RF Ordonez
1B Konerko
SS Valentin
C CHARLES Johnson
LF Lee
3B Crede

Yowza!

:ohno
"It pains us greatly to read this post."

:)

PaleHoseGeorge
02-27-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
Too bad charles Johnson stinks. He's not worth 10 million for 5 years like he wanted.

I would never give him a 5 year deal tying up 10 million a year for all that time.

LOL! I would love to know what verbs you attach to watching Josh Paul's passed balls, Mark Johnson's bat, and Sandy Alomar's knees.

Where I come from, $10 million spent on gold is more valuable than $3 million spent on trash.

doctor30th
02-27-2002, 02:13 PM
Couple of key things, if you sign Charles Johnson to a 10 million contract for 5 years. Foulke, doesnt' get resigned this year, Konerko would not be resigned, durham would definitely be gone.

10 million on him isn't worth it over 5 years. Maybe a one or 2 year contract, but not a 5 year contract.

Foulke You
02-27-2002, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
Couple of key things, if you sign Charles Johnson to a 10 million contract for 5 years. Foulke, doesnt' get resigned this year, Konerko would not be resigned, durham would definitely be gone.

10 million on him isn't worth it over 5 years. Maybe a one or 2 year contract, but not a 5 year contract.


I agree that if we signed CJ we probably would've lost Foulke or Konerko. I think what PHG was arguing was whether CJ is worth the money and not whether the Sox would've let other guys go. CJ is arguably the 2nd best catcher in the game behind Ivan Rodriguez (Sorry Piazza fans! Mike needs to play his position better) Good catching is so hard to find. CJ had a cannon for an arm, blocked every wild pitch thrown his way, called a great game, and will give you 30HR and 100RBI. Guys like that are hard to find so do I think CJ is worth 10 million? Yes. Alomar was a cheaper veteran alternative than CJ. If it came down to choosing CJ over Foulke and Konerko I would take my chances on keeping Keith and Paulie while using Alomar/MJ at catcher.

doctor30th
02-27-2002, 02:34 PM
I agree, by getting Alomar and Clayton, it only ties us up with them for 2 yrs, and we can still afford to pay everyone. Now I don't really care that much for Clayton, Alomar at least gives you the leadership presence for he pitchers.

CJ would not come he unless he got a 5 year deal. That's too long. In 2 years, he could be Alomar.

RichH55
02-27-2002, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
I agree, by getting Alomar and Clayton, it only ties us up with them for 2 yrs, and we can still afford to pay everyone. Now I don't really care that much for Clayton, Alomar at least gives you the leadership presence for he pitchers.

CJ would not come he unless he got a 5 year deal. That's too long. In 2 years, he could be Alomar.


The CJ discussion has some many variables....but Foulke signed cheap, so I think he wanted to stay, and with CJ signed there is no budget for Royce and Alomar.......I think the money breaks down pretty evenly, but there is no question CJ even on a 5 year deal is better than Royce and Alomar, and I think we kiss Durham goodbye next year either way....spending money on talent...good, spending money simply to spend money....bad

czalgosz
02-27-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Just imagine how lethal the lineup would look right now if we were using the $10 million per year we're spending on Choice and Alomar to pay CJ instead:

CF Lofton
2B Durham
DH Thomas
RF Ordonez
1B Konerko
SS Valentin
C Johnson
LF Lee
3B Crede

Yowza!

Alomar's making 5.5 Million this year?

doctor30th
02-27-2002, 03:54 PM
I thought he was due to make 2.1 million this year.

czalgosz
02-27-2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
I thought he was due to make 2.1 million this year.

Anyway, 5 years at $10 Million/year guaranteed is too much to pay for a guy who had a .771 OPS last season, which is about right for him, especially as he would be 35 at the end of that contract, which is 2-3 years too old for most catchers.

doctor30th
02-27-2002, 04:00 PM
Well I agree with you.

czalgosz
02-27-2002, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Anyway, 5 years at $10 Million/year guaranteed is too much to pay for a guy who had a .771 OPS last season, which is about right for him, especially as he would be 35 at the end of that contract, which is 2-3 years too old for most catchers.

And that is about the most terrible sentence ever written. Sheesh...

FarWestChicago
02-27-2002, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


And that is about the most terrible sentence ever written. Sheesh... LOL!! Wait until Nellie sees that one. :smile:

czalgosz
02-27-2002, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
LOL!! Wait until Nellie sees that one. :smile:

Maybe I can chalk it up to Spring fever - I don't know about down where you are, but it's about as nice as I've seen it here in SF.

FarWestChicago
02-27-2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Maybe I can chalk it up to Spring fever - I don't know about down where you are, but it's about as nice as I've seen it here in SF. It's been ridiculously nice the last few days. But, I don't think that excuse is going to cut it with Nellie. :smile:

PaleHoseGeorge
02-27-2002, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
The CJ discussion has some many variables....but Foulke signed cheap, so I think he wanted to stay, and with CJ signed there is no budget for Royce and Alomar.......I think the money breaks down pretty evenly, but there is no question CJ even on a 5 year deal is better than Royce and Alomar, and I think we kiss Durham goodbye next year either way....spending money on talent...good, spending money simply to spend money....bad

This was my original point. It is simply taken as an article of faith that absolutely nothing was possible to improve the Sox at catcher once Charles Johnson declared himself a free agent. We're about to enter our second season without him, and we aren't even discussing the fallout from doing nothing to fix this obvious hole in the line up.

I believe CJ would cost more than the combination of Clayton and Alomar. However, even at $10 million, Johnson is a bargain compared to the $6 million were spending on Clayton's noodle arm and Alomar's worn-out knees.

In short, $4 million isn't a lot to pay if it significantly upgrades your team. That's the marginal cost of getting CJ. Meanwhile, spending $6 million for Clayton and Alomar is expensive, because they offer us very little, if anything.

Penny wise, dollar foolish.

:reinsy
"That sounds like something I would say. Too bad I'm not serious about fielding a winner."

czalgosz
02-27-2002, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


This was my original point. It is simply taken as an article of faith that absolutely nothing was possible to improve the Sox at catcher once Charles Johnson declared himself a free agent. We're about to enter our second season without him, and we aren't even discussing the fallout from doing nothing to fix this obvious hole in the line up.

I believe CJ would cost more than the combination of Clayton and Alomar. However, even at $10 million, Johnson is a bargain compared to the $6 million were spending on Clayton's noodle arm and Alomar's worn-out knees.

In short, $4 million isn't a lot to pay if it significantly upgrades your team. That's the marginal cost of getting CJ. Meanwhile, spending $6 million for Clayton and Alomar is expensive, because they offer us very little, if anything.

Penny wise, dollar foolish.



While I agree that signing Sandy Alomar did nothing to help the Sox, I don't think that giving Charles Johnson a huge contract would have been that much of a better option. CJ did a great job in his brief stint with the Sox, but that period with the Sox was about 3 times better than what you normally can expect out of Charles Johnson. His normal production is a .320 OBP with 15-20 home runs, which is certainly nothing to be ashamed of, but it's not Piazza/Irod territory, which was the kind of money he was asking.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-27-2002, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
While I agree that signing Sandy Alomar did nothing to help the Sox, I don't think that giving Charles Johnson a huge contract would have been that much of a better option. CJ did a great job in his brief stint with the Sox, but that period with the Sox was about 3 times better than what you normally can expect out of Charles Johnson. His normal production is a .320 OBP with 15-20 home runs, which is certainly nothing to be ashamed of, but it's not Piazza/Irod territory, which was the kind of money he was asking.

CJ's value is whatever someone is willing to pay him. Given the general salary inflation of the past 30 years, I don't think it's necessarily fair to compare his salary demands with players who inked deals in previous seasons. Let's not forget, Reinsdorf made Albert Belle the highest-paid ballplayer in history for a paltry $55 million just five years ago.

If the Sox were willing to spend >$6 million on Alomar and Clayton, certainly spending $10 million for CJ was the better buy. There is no substitute for talent.

Daver
02-27-2002, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


CJ's value is whatever someone is willing to pay him. Given the general salary inflation of the past 30 years, I don't think it's necessarily fair to compare his salary demands with players who inked deals in previous seasons. Let's not forget, Reinsdorf made Albert Belle the highest-paid ballplayer in history for a paltry $55 million just five years ago.

If the Sox were willing to spend >$6 million on Alomar and Clayton, certainly spending $10 million for CJ was the better buy. There is no substitute for talent.

There is the fact that the Sox chose not to overpay for that talent,and giving CJ the type of deal he wanted would have resulted in that,had he been willing to sign for numbers closer to his real value,he would probably still be with the Sox.He and his agent shot for the moon when the Sox did not jump on re-signing him,and found 0 takers for his services at the asking price,which resulted in his signing with his hometown team for maney the Sox may have been willing to pay him if his demands were not so out of proprtion to begin with.


But then again what the hell do I know? ©

LongDistanceFan
02-27-2002, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


CJ's value is whatever someone is willing to pay him. Given the general salary inflation of the past 30 years, I don't think it's necessarily fair to compare his salary demands with players who inked deals in previous seasons. Let's not forget, Reinsdorf made Albert Belle the highest-paid ballplayer in history for a paltry $55 million just five years ago.

If the Sox were willing to spend >$6 million on Alomar and Clayton, certainly spending $10 million for CJ was the better buy. There is no substitute for talent. in addition, if the sox would've sign their draft choices, who were catchers, all we had to worry about is when they would've made the jump. thus that position would've been manned by quality players for 5-9 yrs.

kermittheefrog
02-27-2002, 07:59 PM
As bad as our catchign situation is that answer isn't paying CJ 10 mil. After CJ returned to his 1999 level he realized how lucky he was to have the 7 million he got and opted not to become a free agent after last season even though the opportunity was there. CJ's OPSes:

99: 753
00: 961
01: 771

LongDistanceFan
02-27-2002, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
As bad as our catchign situation is that answer isn't paying CJ 10 mil. After CJ returned to his 1999 level he realized how lucky he was to have the 7 million he got and opted not to become a free agent after last season even though the opportunity was there. CJ's OPSes:

99: 753
00: 961
01: 771 as suppose to paying for sandy contract and that of royce who is a cancer to the team........ money would've been well spent for cj and signing the draft choices. paul was suppose to deliver and didn't as well as migel olvia (sp)

PaleHoseGeorge
02-27-2002, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
As bad as our catchign situation is that answer isn't paying CJ 10 mil. After CJ returned to his 1999 level he realized how lucky he was to have the 7 million he got and opted not to become a free agent after last season even though the opportunity was there. CJ's OPSes:

99: 753
00: 961
01: 771

Sorry. If the Sox weren't willing to spend $10 million on CJ, then they should have shoved all $10 million back in their pocket. The reason we struggle to sign the true stars of this team (guys like Foulke, Maggs, and Durham) is because we blow perfectly good money on worthless crap like Alomar and Clayton--$6 million worth.

$10 million spent on gold is still worth more than $6 million spent on trash.

LongDistanceFan
02-27-2002, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Sorry. If the Sox weren't willing to spend $10 million on CJ, then they should have shoved all $10 million back in their pocket. The reason we struggle to sign the true stars of this team (guys like Foulke, Maggs, and Durham) is because we blow perfectly good money on worthless crap like Alomar and Clayton--$6 million worth.

$10 million spent on gold is still worth more than $6 million spent on trash. a difference of 4 mil would've been a waste, but that would've been made up real quick if the sox made it the playoff and the record would've been better and the attendence would've been better.............. their is a domino effect when you spend the money wisely, and signing cj would've been that.


btw......... i am tired of using would've and could've........ does anybody have a better word? :D:

Daver
02-27-2002, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan

btw......... i am tired of using would've and could've........ does anybody have a better word? :D:

I have always been partial to fixin' to.

czalgosz
02-27-2002, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Sorry. If the Sox weren't willing to spend $10 million on CJ, then they should have shoved all $10 million back in their pocket. The reason we struggle to sign the true stars of this team (guys like Foulke, Maggs, and Durham) is because we blow perfectly good money on worthless crap like Alomar and Clayton--$6 million worth.

$10 million spent on gold is still worth more than $6 million spent on trash.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that the money spent on Alomar and Clayton is good money. But I guarantee you that if the Sox had signed Charles Johnson, there would be a lot of bitching right now about how he's not performing the way he should be. Expectations would be very high for him, and after he batted .250 with 18 homers, people would be upset.

The grass is always greener...

Daver
02-27-2002, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


The grass is always greener...

Over the septic field.:redneck

LongDistanceFan
02-27-2002, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by daver


Over the septic field.:redneck classic :D:

RichH55
02-28-2002, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by daver


Over the septic field.:redneck


Whats the poor taste color Daver?

LongDistanceFan
02-28-2002, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


I don't think that anyone is arguing that the money spent on Alomar and Clayton is good money. But I guarantee you that if the Sox had signed Charles Johnson, there would be a lot of bitching right now about how he's not performing the way he should be. Expectations would be very high for him, and after he batted .250 with 18 homers, people would be upset.

The grass is always greener... that is assuming that he would've put up those numbers in the AL, esp with the white sox lineup........... but for arguement sake, lets put those numbers aside, he brings more to the table than offense, lets look at his numbers or what he brings on defense.

czalgosz
02-28-2002, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
that is assuming that he would've put up those numbers in the AL, esp with the white sox lineup........... but for arguement sake, lets put those numbers aside, he brings more to the table than offense, lets look at his numbers or what he brings on defense.

Well, Charles Johnson is good on defense, but he's not great. His bat is why he commanded so much on the Free Agent Market.

I agree that Alomar wasn't the answer behind the plate, I just disagree that Charles Johnson was.

I do agree with you, LDF, that the Sox should have made more of an effort to sign some of their catching draft picks in the past.

LongDistanceFan
02-28-2002, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Well, Charles Johnson is good on defense, but he's not great. His bat is why he commanded so much on the Free Agent Market.

I agree that Alomar wasn't the answer behind the plate, I just disagree that Charles Johnson was.

I do agree with you, LDF, that the Sox should have made more of an effort to sign some of their catching draft picks in the past. cool but cj brings the abilility to call a game, take care of the pitchers, provides good "d" and is above good in throwing out baserunners.

czalgosz
02-28-2002, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
cool but cj brings the abilility to call a game, take care of the pitchers, provides good "d" and is above good in throwing out baserunners.

Charles Johnson is indeed a very good catcher, but he's not $10 Million good. My main point is that what we saw of Charles Johnson was the very best Charles Johnson possible - he was Piazza/Irod good during 2000. $10 Million would be worthwhile (It would practically be a bargain) if he produced like that for his entire career, but he won't. He's a .230-.260 hitter good for 15-20 homers who doesn't walk. I think that if the Sox had given him what he was asking, there would be a lot of people talking about how KW got spanked by Scott Boras and how Charles Johnson is turning out to be a bust. He just looks good because he's in a Marlins uniform.

I'm not saying that the moves the Sox did make were good ones, but signing Charles Johnson wouldn't have been one.

Daver
02-28-2002, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


He just looks good because he's in a Marlins uniform.

I'm not saying that the moves the Sox did make were good ones, but signing Charles Johnson wouldn't have been one.

Bingo!

Give that man a kewpie doll.:redneck

guillen4life13
02-28-2002, 07:54 PM
we gotta really get pudge (fist, not i-rod) outta retirement. so what if he's 50-52? He'd be better than the options we have now.

I think olivo deserves a look at least. I hope he's gettin one is ST.

LongDistanceFan
02-28-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13

I think olivo deserves a look at least. I hope he's gettin one is ST. with or without the cork

Daver
02-28-2002, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
we gotta really get pudge (fist, not i-rod) outta retirement. so what if he's 50-52? He'd be better than the options we have now.

I think olivo deserves a look at least. I hope he's gettin one is ST.

He won't be given a serious look,he has yet to prove he can hit without a corked bat.

LongDistanceFan
02-28-2002, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Charles Johnson is indeed a very good catcher, but he's not $10 Million good. My main point is that what we saw of Charles Johnson was the very best Charles Johnson possible - he was Piazza/Irod good during 2000. $10 Million would be worthwhile (It would practically be a bargain) if he produced like that for his entire career, but he won't. He's a .230-.260 hitter good for 15-20 homers who doesn't walk. I think that if the Sox had given him what he was asking, there would be a lot of people talking about how KW got spanked by Scott Boras and how Charles Johnson is turning out to be a bust. He just looks good because he's in a Marlins uniform.

I'm not saying that the moves the Sox did make were good ones, but signing Charles Johnson wouldn't have been one. 10 mils vs what he would've bring to the team....... a possible playoff, a great cat to help the young pit, a 20-30 hrs and good rbi............ ref clayton and howry are they worth the money they are getting?

PaleHoseGeorge
02-28-2002, 08:04 PM
Just curious. Who would be the top catchers in the major leagues today? How high would Charles Johnson rate? Is getting a quality backstop truly as hopeless as either paying $10 million for CJ or settling on Alomar's worn-out knees and Josh Paul's versatility?

All this talk about bringing up prospects, like Olivo, doesn't appear to address the immediate need. If it was "time" in 2001, certainly that hasn't changed in 2002.

Daver
02-28-2002, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
10 mils vs what he would've bring to the team....... a possible playoff, a great cat to help the young pit, a 20-30 hrs and good rbi............ ref clayton and howry are they worth the money they are getting?

Clayton isn't worth what I make,and Howry makes what his position demands on the market.The point that Czal is trying to make,as well as I,is that at the time that CJ became a free agent he was not worth the price he was asking,and signed with the Marlins for considerably less than asking price the Sox were given,and Boras never gave the Sox a chance to match the Marlins offer.

LongDistanceFan
02-28-2002, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by daver


Clayton isn't worth what I make,and Howry makes what his position demands on the market.The point that Czal is trying to make,as well as I,is that at the time that CJ became a free agent he was not worth the price he was asking,and signed with the Marlins for considerably less than asking price the Sox were given,and Boras never gave the Sox a chance to match the Marlins offer. that may be true............ i am only resonding to something i have read............ i was out of the states at the time........ by i think that the sox should have paid what the marlins did............ are you sure that the sox never had a chance to match the marlins offer?

czalgosz
02-28-2002, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by daver


Clayton isn't worth what I make,and Howry makes what his position demands on the market.The point that Czal is trying to make,as well as I,is that at the time that CJ became a free agent he was not worth the price he was asking,and signed with the Marlins for considerably less than asking price the Sox were given,and Boras never gave the Sox a chance to match the Marlins offer.

Exactly. And as I recall, KW offered CJ a contract very similar to the one he ended up taking in Florida, and CJ and Boras turned it down. What the Marlins offered him was pretty much his market value, and despite the general dearth of catchers all over the majors, noone was offering him any more.

Daver
02-28-2002, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
that may be true............ i am only resonding to something i have read............ i was out of the states at the time........ by i think that the sox should have paid what the marlins did............ are you sure that the sox never had a chance to match the marlins offer?

Yes I am,he signed at the last minute and Boras made a snide remark about a "home town discount".

PaleHoseGeorge
02-28-2002, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
that may be true............ i am only resonding to something i have read............ i was out of the states at the time........ by i think that the sox should have paid what the marlins did............ are you sure that the sox never had a chance to match the marlins offer?

Good question, LDF. This sounds a lot like another example of Reinsdorf crying crocodile tears. We're suppose to believe CJ wasn't worth $10 million, but only the Marlins could get him for $7 million. That's a lot of scratch to be tossing away for the privilege of playing on your hometown loser.

:reinsy
"What? Scott Boras and I are best friends!"

LongDistanceFan
02-28-2002, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Good question, LDF. This sounds a lot like another example of Reinsdorf crying crocodile tears. We're suppose to believe CJ wasn't worth $10 million, but only the Marlins could get him for $7 million. That's a lot of scratch to be tossing away for the privilege of playing on your hometown loser.

:reinsy
"What? Scott Boras and I are best friends!" the variable here is what the sox was offering and of course boras the jag@#$

czalgosz
02-28-2002, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Good question, LDF. This sounds a lot like another example of Reinsdorf crying crocodile tears. We're suppose to believe CJ wasn't worth $10 million, but only the Marlins could get him for $7 million. That's a lot of scratch to be tossing away for the privilege of playing on your hometown loser.

:reinsy
"What? Scott Boras and I are best friends!"

Well, I'm sure the fact that Scott Boras and JR don't get along plays a big factor in the decision, but I wonder why a third team (outside the Marlins and Sox) didn't jump in with a higher offer? As I recall, there were several teams interested in Johnson.

LongDistanceFan
02-28-2002, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Well, I'm sure the fact that Scott Boras and JR don't get along plays a big factor in the decision, but I wonder why a third team (outside the Marlins and Sox) didn't jump in with a higher offer? As I recall, there were several teams interested in Johnson. prob couldn't afford the long term and most teams have catching prospect which we don't.

RichH55
02-28-2002, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
prob couldn't afford the long term and most teams have catching prospect which we don't.

Catching prospect is almost a misnomer...I don't have the stats, but I have to assume outside of Pitchers that catching "prospects" are most likely to fizzle away

kermittheefrog
02-28-2002, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Just curious. Who would be the top catchers in the major leagues today? How high would Charles Johnson rate? Is getting a quality backstop truly as hopeless as either paying $10 million for CJ or settling on Alomar's worn-out knees and Josh Paul's versatility?

All this talk about bringing up prospects, like Olivo, doesn't appear to address the immediate need. If it was "time" in 2001, certainly that hasn't changed in 2002.

Okay top catchers in my opinion:

Piazza
Irod
Posada
Kendall (if healthy)
Varitek
Lo Duca

***Huge gap***
Second Tier:
Charles Johnson
Mitch Melusky (if healthy)
Rob Fick (if Garner lets him just catch)
Ramon Hernandez
Toby Hall
Ben Davis
Javy Lopez

So I'd say CJ is at the top of the second tier although I think he could be easily overtaken by one of the young guys this year, Hall, Hernandez or Davis.

dugwood31
03-01-2002, 12:32 AM
I had Kendall on my fantasy team last year and I would take CJ over him any day. I think he's on the decline, whereas CJ is absolutely consistent. By the way, I'm relatively new here, why aren't we more pissed off about letting CJ go last year? We for sure could have afforded him if we didn't land THE CHOICE.

RichH55
03-01-2002, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Okay top catchers in my opinion:

Piazza
Irod
Posada
Kendall (if healthy)
Varitek
Lo Duca

***Huge gap***
Second Tier:
Charles Johnson
Mitch Melusky (if healthy)
Rob Fick (if Garner lets him just catch)
Ramon Hernandez
Toby Hall
Ben Davis
Javy Lopez

So I'd say CJ is at the top of the second tier although I think he could be easily overtaken by one of the young guys this year, Hall, Hernandez or Davis.


See Catchers are hard to find.....Lo Duca hasnt exactly been steady year in year out.....Kendall has ?s and that 2nd tier has many holes.....Calling CJ a top 5 C is not a stretch...and wouldnt you rather overpay for talent than overpay for crap? Its a simple business move, and yes it is a grass is greener scenario....We would bemoan CJ's numbers, but thats because we would ahve never envisioned the nightmare scenario of Royce and Alomar....given a choice between those ...I'll take CJ any day of the week, even with the Boras factor there

dugwood31
03-01-2002, 12:43 AM
I consider it the Boras-Reinsdorf factor. I think Reinsdorf resents agents that do their job. And Boras goes out of his way to grate on people.

RichH55
03-01-2002, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by dugwood31
I consider it the Boras-Reinsdorf factor. I think Reinsdorf resents agents that do their job. And Boras goes out of his way to grate on people.


I call it the Boras factor as it transcends major league clubs(with the exception of Texas)...the guy is why people vilify all agents

dugwood31
03-01-2002, 12:52 AM
True enough. I'd like him on my side if I were a player, though. And maybe he tries to deflect the heat from players who could be accused of being greedy and overpaid?

RichH55
03-01-2002, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by dugwood31
True enough. I'd like him on my side if I were a player, though. And maybe he tries to deflect the heat from players who could be accused of being greedy and overpaid?


I don't know if i would want him as my agent....What about Moorad(sp.?)? he gets you the dollars and doesn't get vilified at the same time....plus alot less uncertainty...You can get ood money and not have to take your contract from the 3rd team to draft you after playing in the independents and essentially having that mercenary attitude from the word go.....And if you don't take all that heat in the first place there is no reason to have to deflect it.....If you save people from a fire you started, are you a hero? I would rather be a White Sox player, than a baseball player if you get my drift....rather have some sense of loyalty to an organization and them to me.......Another point....life is in part who you associate with...If you worked at Enron as management there is a stigma attached to you, same as if you are a Boras client.....if you are a Nazi, but not Hitler, you are still a nazi(blantant hyperbole part of the post)

RichH55
03-01-2002, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by dugwood31
True enough. I'd like him on my side if I were a player, though. And maybe he tries to deflect the heat from players who could be accused of being greedy and overpaid?


:payrod


Yep deflects all that critism from the player:)

dugwood31
03-01-2002, 01:11 AM
OK, I'll back off the Boras apologies.

RichH55
03-01-2002, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Okay top catchers in my opinion:

Piazza
Irod
Posada
Kendall (if healthy)
Varitek
Lo Duca

***Huge gap***
Second Tier:
Charles Johnson
Mitch Melusky (if healthy)
Rob Fick (if Garner lets him just catch)
Ramon Hernandez
Toby Hall
Ben Davis
Javy Lopez

So I'd say CJ is at the top of the second tier although I think he could be easily overtaken by one of the young guys this year, Hall, Hernandez or Davis.


in that 2nd tier you have 2 Tigers...at least one of them will get dropped.....Melusky could be trade bait, and Fick could be other than C..Inge is not a 2nd tier guy but could still be their guy....Fick(man does he look like a Nazi) was intriguing last year...i thought there was a vialble argument out there that he should have been an all-star C......but they will play games with him(I have zero faith in phil gartner), maybe play him at 1B, and for as good as he was in the First Half (946 OPS)...he was crappy in the 2nd(680 OPS).....making Fick your C and Inge the backup makes alot of sense....I don't know if that sounds like the Tigers though....I wonder what they are going to do with Young should be fun as well...............CJ at 8-10 doesnt sound that horrible to me right now

RichH55
03-01-2002, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by dugwood31
OK, I'll back off the Boras apologies.


LOL....don't worry I've been there too...arguing on something I'm not so sure on

kermittheefrog
03-01-2002, 01:15 AM
Personally I'm a Boras fan. The draft isn't in place as some way to be fair or increase competitive balance or any crap like it's there so the owners don't have to bid on players coming out of college, it reduces the value of the draftees below what it would be on the open market. Most everything in sports is on the owners side, the players get a lot of money for what they do but the owners make even profits so big it's hard to imagine.

LongDistanceFan
03-01-2002, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by RichH55


Catching prospect is almost a misnomer...I don't have the stats, but I have to assume outside of Pitchers that catching "prospects" are most likely to fizzle away "misnomer," " vilified," and "transcend" wow, you going to force me to get a dictionary this early to look up words ............ have some pity here. :D:

LongDistanceFan
03-01-2002, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by dugwood31
I consider it the Boras-Reinsdorf factor. I think Reinsdorf resents agents that do their job. And Boras goes out of his way to grate on people. i like many others here feel that was the prob.

doctor30th
03-01-2002, 12:45 PM
Actually CJ took a huge hometown discount. He wanted 10 million for 5 years (50 million Contract) with us and he took a 35 million contract for 5 years. I believe the first year was 5 million, the next year is 6, then it goes up to 8 for the final 3 years.