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Chicken Dinner
09-10-2006, 04:11 PM
That's probably the worst managing of a bull pen I've ever seen. What was Ozzie thinking? Tie game.......I don't understand. AAA pitchers in a close game and pretty much the same guys that gave up the 7 spot last night. Their manager (Ozzie) is driving this team down.

lumpyspun
09-10-2006, 04:13 PM
I really don't think it mattered...for some reason I think the baseball gods didn't want us to win today. That is the only way I can explain some of these games we have lost lately.

Chicken Dinner
09-10-2006, 04:14 PM
I really don't think it mattered...for some reason I think the baseball gods didn't want us to win today. That is the only way I can explain some of these games we have lost lately.

How about bad managing.

Patrick134
09-10-2006, 04:20 PM
Blame McCarthy for going 3-0 on their 2nd most dangerous hitter and serving one up. The rest, while very ugly, was inconsequential.

CHISOXFAN13
09-10-2006, 05:04 PM
That's probably the worst managing of a bull pen I've ever seen. What was Ozzie thinking? Tie game.......I don't understand. AAA pitchers in a close game and pretty much the same guys that gave up the 7 spot last night. Their manager (Ozzie) is driving this team down.

I blame last night's relievers for failing to hold a 9-run lead, forcing the Sox to go to Mac and Thornton.

I really can't blame Ozzie if those two were unavailable. There isn't a better option at this point because they all are struggling.

southside rocks
09-10-2006, 06:11 PM
You have to keep using your relievers, especially after they have bad outings. A lot of it's mental, and if a reliever gets it into his head that he won't be effective in a game, then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That's a lot of what's going on with Cotts, I believe.

The quickest way to remove the taste of failure is to allow that person to go out and succeed, and that's why Ozzie used those relievers today. Just because they were lousy yesterday is no indication or guarantee that they would be lousy today, and that's the chance he took.

They need the relievers to be pitching well and in good mental shape for the post-season, and I believe that's what Ozzie is trying to do here.

I disagree with you; I think Ozzie manages the bullpen very well, overall. Given what's out there, I think he's done an excellent job this year. Could he be better? Probably. He's in his third year as a major-league manager. It's likely that he's still learning. It's not realistic to expect him to have the experience and savvy of a Bobby Cox, for instance.

HawkDJ
09-10-2006, 06:25 PM
I blame last night's relievers for failing to hold a 9-run lead, forcing the Sox to go to Mac and Thornton.

I really can't blame Ozzie if those two were unavailable. There isn't a better option at this point because they all are struggling.

Why take out Garland after only 6 innings?

Huisj
09-10-2006, 06:29 PM
Why take out Garland after only 6 innings?

could be because he'd thrown a ton of pitches. hadn't he thrown 49 pitches through 2 innings?

Myrtle72
09-10-2006, 06:42 PM
could be because he'd thrown a ton of pitches. hadn't he thrown 49 pitches through 2 innings?

106 to be exact.

But so what? He was still doing great. Why does the pitch count determine is the pitcher should be in the game or not?

Lip Man 1
09-10-2006, 06:45 PM
EXACTLY! In Jerry Koosman's interview he makes a great point on this. He says there were some games where he threw 120 pitches and felt great, there were other games where he threw 80 and was spent. He said when you're in the dugout you can tell when a pitcher is laboring or not.

Basically he said, in so many words, pitch counts are full of ****.

Regarding the bullpen issues. This entire season it seems the Sox have been laboring and scrambling to solve them since the day Hermanson walked off the mound in spring training. They've tried to play 'catch up' ever since then.

I hope Kenny doesn't make the same mistake this off season. He's going to need by my count at least two good arms (preferably one left handed) and possibly a third guy for insurance / trade bait sake.

The only guys 'assured' of spots in 2007 should be Jenks, MacDougle, Thornton and maybe Riske. All the others you can take out with the trash.

Lip

Sox-o-matic
09-10-2006, 07:08 PM
EXACTLY! In Jerry Koosman's interview he makes a great point on this. He says there were some games where he threw 120 pitches and felt great, there were other games where he threw 80 and was spent. He said when you're in the dugout you can tell when a pitcher is laboring or not.

Basically he said, in so many words, pitch counts are full of ****.

Regarding the bullpen issues. This entire season it seems the Sox have been laboring and scrambling to solve them since the day Hermanson walked off the mound in spring training. They've tried to play 'catch up' even since then.

I hope Kenny doesn't make the same mistake this off season. He's going to need by my count at least two good arms (preferably one left handed) and possibly a third guy for insurance / trade bait sake.

The only guys 'assured' of spots in 2007 should be Jenks, MacDougle, Thornton and maybe Riske. All the others you can take out with the trash.

Lip

Isn't Riske a FA after this year?

southside rocks
09-10-2006, 07:15 PM
EXACTLY! In Jerry Koosman's interview he makes a great point on this. He says there were some games where he threw 120 pitches and felt great, there were other games where he threw 80 and was spent. He said when you're in the dugout you can tell when a pitcher is laboring or not.

Basically he said, in so many words, pitch counts are full of ****.

Lip
Jack McDowell said the same thing last night, quite a few times, when he was doing the TV broadcast with DJ in Hawk's absence. He said that he routinely threw 250-260 innings per year.

The interesting thing is that arm troubles ended Black Jack's career and one wonders -- if he had pitched fewer innings, might he have had a longer stint in the major leagues?

I don't suggest that he would or wouldn't, I just wonder.

http://www.hickoksports.com/biograph/mcdowelljack.shtml

The theory behind pitch counts is that they spare excessive wear and tear on a pitcher's arm. Even at that, it certainly does seem to vary with the individual pitcher.

That's why I hope Charlie Haeger sticks -- a knuckleballer can throw 150 pitches in a game and be ready to go again on his next turn in the rotation. :tongue:

Corlose 15
09-10-2006, 07:27 PM
Didn't McDowell have a hip problem too?

JB98
09-10-2006, 07:32 PM
I blame last night's relievers for failing to hold a 9-run lead, forcing the Sox to go to Mac and Thornton.

I really can't blame Ozzie if those two were unavailable. There isn't a better option at this point because they all are struggling.

Agree 100 percent. I just made the same point over in the game thread, although in more rambling fashion. I do think Ozzie should have left Riske in today instead of bringing in Logan, but really, that's the difference between a 4-2 loss and a 5-2 loss. Inconsequential in the big picture.

Chicken Dinner
09-10-2006, 08:36 PM
And how many games are left? If you want in the playoffs use your best people, not a cast of losers.

Lip Man 1
09-10-2006, 09:12 PM
Three points:

1. Read Jack's interview with WSI... he explains in 'detail' about his 'hip injury' (it really wasn't an injury..)

2. Read Jack's interview with WSI where he explains how his career ended (a doctor did an 'oops...' during surgery.)

3. A partial list of relief pitchers who may be available on the free agent market this season includes:

Mike Timlin
Keith Foulke
Eric Gagne
Bob Wickman
Danys Baez
Joe Borowski
Miguel Batista
Jose Mesa
Octavio Dotel
LaTroy Hawkins

Lip

chisoxfanatic
09-10-2006, 09:17 PM
I disagree with you; I think Ozzie manages the bullpen very well, overall. Given what's out there, I think he's done an excellent job this year. Could he be better? Probably. He's in his third year as a major-league manager. It's likely that he's still learning. It's not realistic to expect him to have the experience and savvy of a Bobby Cox, for instance.

I disagree with you. Ozzie's made a TON of dumb moves with the pen for a long time this year. He doesn't put guys in when they should go in. Instead, he goes for those who SHOULDN'T be going in tons of times. It's gotten to the point where I feel like pulling out my hair at times.

And, he shouldn't be making these ROOKIE mistakes in his third year. This is coming straight from someone who's in the third year of her profession.

OzzyTrain
09-10-2006, 09:20 PM
And how many games are left? If you want in the playoffs use your best people, not a cast of losers.

I won't call them losers, but I will say he is picking the wrong guys for the situration at times. Playing everyone, or playing your bench players every other game is getting old to me.

I disagree with you. Ozzie's made a TON of dumb moves with the pen for a long time this year. He doesn't put guys in when they should go in. Instead, he goes for those who SHOULDN'T be going in tons of times. It's gotten to the point where I feel like pulling out my hair at times.

And, he shouldn't be making these ROOKIE mistakes in his third year. This is coming straight from someone who's in the third year of her profession.

Honestly, if someone just started watching baseball with no idea of our record or the standings, they would think we were playing for next year instead.

Ol' No. 2
09-10-2006, 10:35 PM
EXACTLY! In Jerry Koosman's interview he makes a great point on this. He says there were some games where he threw 120 pitches and felt great, there were other games where he threw 80 and was spent. He said when you're in the dugout you can tell when a pitcher is laboring or not.

Basically he said, in so many words, pitch counts are full of ****.

Regarding the bullpen issues. This entire season it seems the Sox have been laboring and scrambling to solve them since the day Hermanson walked off the mound in spring training. They've tried to play 'catch up' ever since then.

I hope Kenny doesn't make the same mistake this off season. He's going to need by my count at least two good arms (preferably one left handed) and possibly a third guy for insurance / trade bait sake.

The only guys 'assured' of spots in 2007 should be Jenks, MacDougle, Thornton and maybe Riske. All the others you can take out with the trash.

LipAren't you making a rather large assumption? You're assuming Garland is just fine with the number of innings he's pitched. How would you know? Ozzie took him out because they were way ahead and he didn't want to use him more than necessary. I'm pretty sure Ozzie knows more about his condition than anyone here.

FielderJones
09-10-2006, 10:45 PM
106 to be exact.

But so what? He was still doing great. Why does the pitch count determine is the pitcher should be in the game or not?


http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:117NyKDQtVcMEM:http://robpage.mlblogs.com/photos/uncategorized/dusty_baker.jpg
"Dude, you're right. I don't worry about pitch count either."

INSox56
09-11-2006, 08:36 AM
Blame McCarthy for going 3-0 on their 2nd most dangerous hitter and serving one up. The rest, while very ugly, was inconsequential.

The inning before that, where Mccarthy gave up the HUGE fly ball for the third out, when AJ was walking back to the plate, he took his mask off and mouthed "Wow....that was RIGHT down the middle of the plate. Right down the middle", shook his head and walked in. Shows you how accurate he was yesterday...

INSox56
09-11-2006, 08:40 AM
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:117NyKDQtVcMEM:http://robpage.mlblogs.com/photos/uncategorized/dusty_baker.jpg
"Dude, you're right. I don't worry about pitch count either."

You should include a Larry Rothschild pic also. heh

rookieroy
09-11-2006, 09:43 AM
Bullpen management? How about not pitching McCarthy anymore? How many more meatball homeruns to loose games does he need to give up before we stop this madness? He has been awful. Plain and simple. Just pitch anyone else but him. Was Cliff Politte this bad?

Fungo
09-11-2006, 10:32 AM
I find it interesting that people here keep referring to our AAA bullpen, yet are ignoring the Indians AAA lineup they threw out at the Sox all series long. Let's be honest folks, outside of Sizemore, Michaels, Martinez and Blake, this is the AAA Buffalo Bisons that we just split with.

Chicken Dinner
09-11-2006, 10:38 AM
I find it interesting that people here keep referring to our AAA bullpen, yet are ignoring the Indians AAA lineup they threw out at the Sox all series long. Let's be honest folks, outside of Sizemore, Michaels, Martinez and Blake, this is the AAA Buffalo Bisons that we just split with.

When your 17 games out of first, your supposed to develop your young future players. We're fighting for a playoff spot. There is a reason these guys played in AAA this season. Take a look at who had all the RBI's yesterday.

Fungo
09-11-2006, 11:12 AM
When your 17 games out of first, your supposed to develop your young future players. We're fighting for a playoff spot. There is a reason these guys played in AAA this season. Take a look at who had all the RBI's yesterday.
Look who set up those guys for the RBIs. Inglett, Marte both drew key walks and passed the bat to the top of the order. Why just look at yesterday? They went with the same lineup for most of the series. I think you're too easliy dismissing the Indians AAA lineup who put up 9, 6, 8 & 5 runs against Sox pitching. Unless of course, you think this is a good Indians team. Yesterdays Post game thread was also titled "Indians Defeat Charlotte Post Game Thread". Many here are acting like we were the only ones playing Triple-A players.

Indians opening day lineup:
Sizemore, CF
Michaels, LF
Peralta, SS
Hafner, DH
Martinez, C
Perez, 1B
Belliard, 2B
Boone, 3B
Blake, RF

Yesterday's Indians lineup:
Sizemore, CF
Michaels, LF
Martinez, C
Garko, 1B
Choo, RF
Blake, DH
Luna, SS
Inglett, 2B
Marte, 3B

gobears1987
09-11-2006, 11:15 AM
106 to be exact.

But so what? He was still doing great. Why does the pitch count determine is the pitcher should be in the game or not?Probably because ignoring pitch counts is largely responsible for the injuries suffered by Wood and Prior. Ozzie may make some mistakes, but he isn't dumb enough to make Dusty's mistake.

INSox56
09-11-2006, 11:19 AM
Look who set up those guys for the RBIs. Inglett, Marte both drew key walks and passed the bat to the top of the order. Why just look at yesterday? They went with the same lineup for most of the series. I think you're too easliy dismissing the Indians AAA lineup who put up 9, 6, 8 & 5 runs against Sox pitching. Unless of course, you think this is a good Indians team. Yesterdays Post game thread was also titled "Indians Defeat Charlotte Post Game Thread". Many here are acting like we were the only ones playing Triple-A players.

Indians opening day lineup:
Sizemore, CF
Michaels, LF
Peralta, SS
Hafner, DH
Martinez, C
Perez, 1B
Belliard, 2B
Boone, 3B
Blake, RF

Yesterday's Indians lineup:
Sizemore, CF
Michaels, LF
Martinez, C
Garko, 1B
Choo, RF
Blake, DH
Luna, SS
Inglett, 2B
Marte, 3B


Hawk as well as other people have said that pitching to AAA players (or a team that's completely out of the race because they have zero pressure and just wing it) is more difficult because they just go for it. They don't really think (or thus, out-think) themselves. And Marte was one of the best prospects in MLB with boston before he got traded (though his MLB avg is not high yet).

cheezheadsoxfan
09-11-2006, 11:27 AM
He's in his third year as a major-league manager. It's likely that he's still learning. It's not realistic to expect him to have the experience and savvy of a Bobby Cox, for instance.

An excellent point. Just speaking for myself I tend to forget that because of 1) The Championship and 2) Ozzie's cockiness and having been in the organization so long.

Frater Perdurabo
09-11-2006, 12:08 PM
I think Ozzie has mismanaged McCarthy over the course of the entire season. I really hope that his mismanagement doesn't ruin McCarthy long-term.

What kind of coaching are these bullpen pitchers getting that makes them so deathly afraid to throw strikes?

Why are they all auditioning for the Damaso Marte role (to come in and generate a walk, HBP, wild pitch or hard-hit ball)?

If I were coaching these relievers, I'd tell them that every time they walked a guy I'd cut off one of their toes. (semi-teal).

Paulwny
09-11-2006, 12:37 PM
That's probably the worst managing of a bull pen I've ever seen. What was Ozzie thinking? Tie game.......I don't understand. AAA pitchers in a close game and pretty much the same guys that gave up the 7 spot last night. Their manager (Ozzie) is driving this team down.

You words were the exact comments from the tribe announcers yesterday, along with, ~ "Ozzie is managing in bizarro world. Thank you Ozzie !"

Flight #24
09-11-2006, 01:01 PM
Bullpen management? How about not pitching McCarthy anymore? How many more meatball homeruns to loose games does he need to give up before we stop this madness? He has been awful. Plain and simple. Just pitch anyone else but him. Was Cliff Politte this bad?

It's not that complicated. Ozzie currently has Thornton & McDougal. That's it until/unless Jenks gets back on track. He used both Fri & Sat and will need them the rest of the year so he's got to go to other guys.

That makes the options: Cotts (who's been worse than anyone this year), a rookie (take your pick), Hermie (as unpredictable as anyone), or Riske/McCarthy. In a tie game, you go to your long man, McCarthy.

It's not like he's picking Brandon over Mariano Rivera. As we saw - none of the other guys could even really get the ball over the plate. But he was supposed to go to them in the 8th/9th of a tie game?:?:

TomBradley72
09-11-2006, 02:27 PM
When players don't execute they make the manager look bad.

90% of the posts in this thread complain about Ozzie but don't offer an alternative.

Here's the bullpen's ERA's over the last 30 days...looks to me like he didn't have much to choose from:

MacDougal: 1.02 (unavailable thanks to Saturday's debacle)
Jenks: 1.64 (struggling...should he have started the 9th?)
Thornton: 1.74 (unavailable thanks to Saturday's debacle)
Riske: 3.86 (better alternative?..part of the Devil Ray debacle a week ago)
Hermanson: 5.40
Brandon MacCarthy: 5.73
Cotts: 14.29
Logan: 16.20

Chicken Dinner
09-11-2006, 03:02 PM
When players don't execute they make the manager look bad.

90% of the posts in this thread complain about Ozzie but don't offer an alternative.

Here's the bullpen's ERA's over the last 30 days...looks to me like he didn't have much to choose from:

MacDougal: 1.02 (unavailable thanks to Saturday's debacle)
Jenks: 1.64 (struggling...should he have started the 9th?)
Thornton: 1.74 (unavailable thanks to Saturday's debacle)
Riske: 3.86 (better alternative?..part of the Devil Ray debacle a week ago)
Hermanson: 5.40
Brandon MacCarthy: 5.73
Cotts: 14.29
Logan: 16.20

I still don't understand why Thornton was unavailable. He pitched 15 pitches on Friday and 5 on Saturday. Hardly overworked.

Domeshot17
09-11-2006, 03:05 PM
2 things

first-in terms of pitch count and Garland

OZZIE MADE THE RIGHT MOVE, he wasnt pitching a shutout, his team at the time was up huge, you take your pitcher out and save his arm for the stretch run because he is one of the biggest and most important members of the team. He has become your goto starter. You dont want to wear him out at a time when he is already going to start getting tired. For all of you wanting a complete game out of Garland, you would have been asking for 150ish pitches. Even to go one more he could have easily been over 120 125. Ozzie made the right move there.

HOWEVER

secondly

Ozzie has been bad with the bullpen. He is too loyal to guys. He has always been. Last year it was Damaso, this year its Brandon and Cotts. Ozzie is a motivator, but not a tactical manager. He has always made poor decisions during games. Most Managers are like that unless you have a lockdown bullpen (which we should). I like Ozzie, but if we miss the playoffs this year, he has to start next year on the hotseat. He has cost us probably 5 games this year, those 5 games are the wildcard AND division.

Ol' No. 2
09-11-2006, 03:17 PM
I still don't understand why Thornton was unavailable. He pitched 15 pitches on Friday and 5 on Saturday. Hardly overworked.But he'd also warmed up twice on Saturday. Warmup pitches matter, too. You just can't keep using the same guys every day.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:117NyKDQtVcMEM:http://robpage.mlblogs.com/photos/uncategorized/dusty_baker.jpg I don't see why not, dude. It worked for me.