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View Full Version : *Official* 9-10-06 Indians Defeat Charlotte Post Game Thread


Brian26
09-10-2006, 04:03 PM
Have at it.

chisoxmike
09-10-2006, 04:04 PM
:angry:

Harry Potter
09-10-2006, 04:04 PM
Another quality performance by McCarthy. Learn how to throw your changeup. That makes six straight outings with at least one earned run allowed. :angry:

eurotrash35
09-10-2006, 04:05 PM
go bears

Patrick134
09-10-2006, 04:05 PM
McCarthy has given up runs in his last 6 appearances. one wonders what this kind of experience does for his confidence as a starter next season.
His ERA was 3.84 a month ago, 4.79 now.

Kub_Killer_15
09-10-2006, 04:05 PM
We should make a commercail "how many pitchers does it take to get 3 outs" kind of like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop. Unreal!

Gavin
09-10-2006, 04:05 PM
Honestly, I'm fed up with Ozzie. The more I watch this year the more I feel like he had a lot less to do with last year's World Series than he has been given credit for.

Soxworldchamps
09-10-2006, 04:06 PM
Wait, didn't our bullpen used to be good?


This was painful to listen to during the top of the ninth.

Tragg
09-10-2006, 04:06 PM
the difference in this game is that the Indians worked counts and got Javier out of there after 7 with a high pitch count and our swing at everything approach ensured that Sabathia would pitch 9.

That and strange use of personnel, particularly pitchers. Looks like more ozzie ego to me.
It was a horrible time for a homer, things are magnified out of the pen...zero room for error in taht situation. He has been pitching poorly though...he was hit yesterday, although at least one of those hits yesterday was a CF bloop that Anderson seemed to lose in the sun.

pagansoxfan
09-10-2006, 04:06 PM
now we know why ozzie wouldn't put bmac in the rotation. only one word can describe our bullpen, disgusting!

spiffie
09-10-2006, 04:07 PM
Some days you lose.

Only thing I'll say is that Kenny Williams has staked a lot on Brandon McCarthy being a top-flight pitcher at some point in the very near future, both in terms of planning and in refusing to consider moving him for current all-star caliber players. Hopefully he will not end up disappointing in that regard.

Foulke You
09-10-2006, 04:07 PM
Does anyone feel good about any of our bullpen pitchers outside of MacDougal and Thornton right now? I sure don't.

With the Detroit loss/Minnesota win, this one hurts.:(:

stl_sox_fan
09-10-2006, 04:07 PM
Sox just can't get out of 2nd gear. I don't understand why you have unproven rookies coming out of the pen in a pennant race. I guess LaRussa must have done it at one time or another.

You just know this whole darned race is going to come down to the wire in Minnesota.

Harry Potter
09-10-2006, 04:07 PM
With the Detroit loss/Minnesota win, this one hurts.:(:

Every loss this week hurt

Patrick134
09-10-2006, 04:08 PM
Honestly, I'm fed up with Ozzie. The more I watch this year the more I feel like he had a lot less to do with last year's World Series than he has been given credit for.

Managers always get too much credit, and too much blame. He didn't throw any great pitches last year, and hasn't thrown any bad ones this year.

stl_sox_fan
09-10-2006, 04:08 PM
Some days you lose.

Only thing I'll say is that Kenny Williams has staked a lot on Brandon McCarthy being a top-flight pitcher at some point in the very near future, both in terms of planning and in refusing to consider moving him for current all-star caliber players. Hopefully he will not end up disappointing in that regard.

I just hope Brandon fares better as a starter than a reliever.

palehozenychicty
09-10-2006, 04:08 PM
ugly loss. i feel for vazquez, who matched captain cheeseburger pitch for pitch. detroit is in full implosion, so we just gotta get to anaheim and start again...:(:

Brian26
09-10-2006, 04:08 PM
The press conference on Comcast is ugly.

Ozzie claims Thornton and MacDougal weren't available.

Foulke You
09-10-2006, 04:08 PM
McCarthy has given up runs in his last 6 appearances. one wonders what this kind of experience does for his confidence as a starter next season.
His ERA was 3.84 a month ago, 4.79 now.
He pitches waist to letter high lately and is relying solely on a straight fastball to get hitters out. This won't work in the big leagues. He has to keep his fastball down, get command of his curve, and definitely his changeup or the McCarthy era will never arrive.

samram
09-10-2006, 04:08 PM
Well, now people can see how last night's win, while needed, was costly. If the middle relief guys do their jobs and hold the Indians around 3 or 4 runs, MacDougal, Thornton, etc. would have been available today. Instead, you have to use a struggling middle relief guy in a tie game in the ninth and the results were pretty much as expected.

MarySwiss
09-10-2006, 04:09 PM
Okay, so has Ozzie officially lost his mind? I mean, I could be wrong, but if Joe had gotten on in the bottom of the ninth, that would have meant AJ would have been due up, representing the tying run, correct? And I could have sworn I saw Fields in the on-deck circle.

***? First the pitcher-per-batter extravaganza, then you plan on pinch-hitting for perhaps your biggest Tribe killer--who also represents the tying run--with a guy who just got here from Charlotte? :o:

Or did AJ get tossed or something?

kittle42
09-10-2006, 04:09 PM
Sox just can't get out of 2nd gear. I don't understand why you have unproven rookies coming out of the pen in a pennant race. I guess LaRussa must have done it at one time or another.

Probably because they had to blow all their good relievers after the crappiness of the bullpen the last two nights.

Patrick134
09-10-2006, 04:09 PM
Sox just can't get out of 2nd gear. I don't understand why you have unproven rookies coming out of the pen in a pennant race. I guess LaRussa must have done it at one time or another.

You just know this whole darned race is going to come down to the wire in Minnesota.

It was the unecessary burning up of the pen in a 10-1 game that caused todays debacle, although you could argue it was over after McCarthy gave up the gopher ball.

samram
09-10-2006, 04:10 PM
The press conference on Comcast is ugly.

Ozzie claims Thornton and MacDougal weren't available.

And he's right. He had to use them Friday and Saturday because McCarthy, Logan, and Hermanson couldn't get anyone out last night.

Brian26
09-10-2006, 04:10 PM
Batters faced: Sabathia 33, Vazquez 26, McCarthy 5, Cotts 1, Riske 2, Logan 1, Tracey 3.

stl_sox_fan
09-10-2006, 04:10 PM
He pitches waist to letter high lately and is relying solely on a straight fastball to get hitters out. This won't work in the big leagues. He has to keep his fastball down, get command of his curve, and definitely his changeup or the McCarthy era will never arrive.

Brandon is a flyball pitcher. That works in the National League, not in the American League. Coop better educate him on that.

Fungo
09-10-2006, 04:12 PM
Okay, so has Ozzie officially lost his mind? I mean, I could be wrong, but if Joe had gotten on in the bottom of the ninth, that would have meant AJ would have been due up, representing the tying run, correct? And I could have sworn I saw Fields in the on-deck circle.

***? First the pitcher-per-batter extravaganza, then you plan on pinch-hitting for perhaps your biggest Tribe killer--who also represents the tying run--with a guy who just got here from Charlotte? :o:

Or did AJ get tossed or something?I thought bring Fields to the on deck circle was Ozzie's best call of the game. No complaints here.

Chicken Dinner
09-10-2006, 04:13 PM
And he's right. He had to use them Friday and Saturday because McCarthy, Logan, and Hermanson couldn't get anyone out last night.

So he bring McCarthy and Logan in today? ***!

AnkleSox
09-10-2006, 04:14 PM
The starting pitchers and the bullpen guys must hate each other. Whenever one starts doing well, the other one just completely tanks.

MarySwiss
09-10-2006, 04:15 PM
Ah, the hell with it. Let's get those damn Angels tomorrow. Meanwhile, I think I'll go lurk on the Tigers' fan site and cheer myself up. :cool:

slobes
09-10-2006, 04:15 PM
I was extremely shocked to see McCarthy starting the 9th. I realize both Thornton and Macdougal pitched yesterday, but this seems like a terribly boneheaded move. Can't expect much more out of Javy, he did his job. I was hoping the offense could make Sabathia throw a few more pitches and hopefully get a shot at the Cleveland bullpen.

Chicken Dinner
09-10-2006, 04:16 PM
It's called bad managing!

SOXSINCE'70
09-10-2006, 04:16 PM
Every loss this week hurt

Every loss from here on out will hurt.:(:

Patrick134
09-10-2006, 04:17 PM
Ah, the hell with it. Let's get those damn Angels tomorrow. Meanwhile, I think I'll go lurk on the Tigers' fan site and cheer myself up. :cool:

Amen. 3.5 out/1.5 out is far from the worst that could have been after this weekend. And the way the tigers are spiraling out of control, they easily could be the ones out of the race shortly. You know todays game could have gone 17 innings and been a loss, and that would have been a whole lot worse heading to the west coast.

Myrtle72
09-10-2006, 04:18 PM
It's called bad managing!

Or, over-managing.

Sometimes I don't understand why these pitchers get taken out in the first place.

stl_sox_fan
09-10-2006, 04:18 PM
A three game winning streak would have been great heading into the West Coast trip.

Hitmen77
09-10-2006, 04:19 PM
In addition to the bullpen, the offense gets some of the blame today too. After the 2nd hitter of the game, they totally shut down.

Chicken Dinner
09-10-2006, 04:19 PM
Or, over-managing.

Sometimes I don't understand why these pitchers get taken out in the first place.

Walks

Foulke You
09-10-2006, 04:19 PM
Amen. 3.5 out/1.5 out is far from the worst that could have been after this weekend. And the way the tigers are spiraling out of control, they easily could be the ones out of the race shortly. You know todays game could have gone 17 innings and been a loss, and that would have been a whole lot worse heading to the west coast.
This one certainly isn't a backbreaker but it hurts because we had the chance to win a series and close to 2.5 games of Detroit before heading out on a tough 6 game west coast trip. 4 of 6 on this trip is a must.

Beautox
09-10-2006, 04:21 PM
time and again Ozzie puts McCarthy in a situation where he isn't going to suceede, Bobby should have been out there, and the offense approach at the plate was horrid, and Thome shouldn't have been able to see CC for the fourth time.

Hats off to Javy 7IP 2BB 4H, 10K 2ER, another masterful performance, alls we need is our pitching to sustain and Jenks to get healthy, Detroit is in free fall and there we still have 3 games against them and 3 against the twins. Left handers always give us fits so what new. No use getting angry GO Bears! and i hope everyone enjoys this awesome fall day.

OakLawnDJ
09-10-2006, 04:21 PM
Sometimes I don't understand why these pitchers get taken out in the first place.

2nd. I guess it comes down to Ozzie wanting a good "matchup," as has been discussed, but he needs to simply let pitchers that get outs just pitch.

I'm a Cotts fan, and, though he hasn't been doing good lately, he didn't give up any runs (and he may have had a double play if the grass wasn't wet - I'm not saying he would have, but he might have)... I personally would've left him in for at least another batter, reguardless of his record against that batter. As we saw last year, at any given moment, any given player can be a hero... Cotts might've done what was needed just today.

But oh well... we've got series' against Detroit and Minnesota left, so we can make up for it I suppose.

Foulke You
09-10-2006, 04:21 PM
In addition to the bullpen, the offense gets some of the blame today too. After the 2nd hitter of the game, they totally shut down.
Agreed. I'm not going to hang this one on the bullpen alone. The offensive approach against Sabathia was terrible. Everyone was trying to pull the ball and swinging at the 1st or 2nd pitches. There were a few innings where the Sox were retired in order on 5 to 6 pitches. As a previous poster pointed out, if they had worked the count better and fought off some pitches, Sabathia might have been at the 100 pitch mark earlier in the game.

TheOldRoman
09-10-2006, 04:22 PM
Batters faced: Sabathia 33, Vazquez 26, McCarthy 5, Cotts 1, Riske 2, Logan 1, Tracey 3.
That is the game right there. The offense crapped itself again. At least this time it was against a pretty good (not great) pitcher instead of a horrible one. The bullpen was horrible, McGasCan took the loss, but the offense cost us this game.
6 baserunners through 9 innings? That says it all.
If the bullpen didn't suck, and if Ozzie didn't make some bad calls, maybe people would have to realize how horrible our offense has been.

Lip Man 1
09-10-2006, 04:22 PM
Seems like SOP the past few weeks...bad relief pitching, bad managerial decisions, no offense.

What are you gonna do?

Lip

Patrick134
09-10-2006, 04:23 PM
2nd. I guess it comes down to Ozzie wanting a good "matchup," as has been discussed, but he needs to simply let pitchers that get outs just pitch.

I'm a Cotts fan, and, though he hasn't been doing good lately, he didn't give up any runs (and he may have had a double play if the grass wasn't wet - I'm not saying he would have, but he might have)... I personally would've left him in for at least another batter, reguardless of his record against that batter. As we saw last year, at any given moment, any given player can be a hero... Cotts might've done what was needed just today.

But oh well... we've got series' against Detroit and Minnesota left, so we can make up for it I suppose.

Right and the twins play 3 now against Oakland, and with Santana not pitching that series, I expect Oakland to take at least 2 games.

Patrick134
09-10-2006, 04:23 PM
Seems like SOP the past few weeks...bad relief pitching, bad managerial decisions, no offense.

What are you gonna do?

Lip

Great points. The tigers are asking themselves the same things.

rookie
09-10-2006, 04:25 PM
Managers always get too much credit, and too much blame. He didn't throw any great pitches last year, and hasn't thrown any bad ones this year.

Yeah, I didn't quite understand all the anger at Ozzie with the bullpen changes. As stated previously we couldn't use our reliable bullpen guys because because our unreliable guys screwed it up last night (and today).

Last year Ozzie had great pitching (starting and bullpen) to work with. This year it's all over the place. The guys who you used to count on are all over the place, and not just a few of your pitchers, but most of the pitching staff is schizo.

This is Ozzie's 3rd year managing. Last year his pitching staff was gold, this year it's gold-plated. Maybe I'm too forgiving but I think he's done an alright job managing the pitching changes. Not as bad as some make it out.

Myrtle72
09-10-2006, 04:25 PM
6 baserunners through 9 innings? That says it all.

Guess we should have saved some of yesterdays runs for today? But if we had done that, we'd have lost yesterday considering it was such a close game...

Patrick134
09-10-2006, 04:26 PM
Guess we should have saved some of yesterdays runs for today? But if we had done that, we'd have lost yesterday considering it was such a close game...

Regardless of how the first 3 games went, I had a feeling going in Sabathia would be tough again.

OakLawnDJ
09-10-2006, 04:27 PM
Right and the twins play 3 now against Oakland, and with Santana not pitching that series, I expect Oakland to take at least 2 games.

Good point... I forgot about that matchup... hopefully Oakland can help us out as much as Kansas City has lately, lol.

Wsoxmike59
09-10-2006, 04:27 PM
http://soxmachine.com/images/bullpen.jpg

Our Bullpen the last two games! :angry:

TomParrish79
09-10-2006, 04:28 PM
tough loss today...and a very ugly looking bullpen

What this series has told us is that as of right now no type of walk off win is enough to spark this team into playing consistant good baseball.

We just have to hope that this treading water is good enough to get us in the wildcard at the end of the year.

Now we gotta bounce back and win our next series

bluestar
09-10-2006, 04:29 PM
The key to this game was the Sox continuing inability to hit left-handed pitching. Before today Sabathia had been struggling with his control. But we didn't have good at-bats against him. We needed to be patient and we weren't. We needed to make him throw lots of pitches and we didn't.

Another great effort by Vazquez was wasted. Ozzie needed McCarthy to step up without Thonton or MacDougal available, and he didn't.

There is no point hanging our heads over this one. A brutal road trip is ahead against two hot teams. (Also...a good lefty in Joe Saunders we have never faced before...yikes!) We're still 3.5 out of first place and 1.5 out of the Wild Card with lots of time left.

Tragg
09-10-2006, 04:29 PM
That is the game right there. The offense crapped itself again. At least this time it was against a pretty good (not great) pitcher instead of a horrible one. The bullpen was horrible, McGasCan took the loss, but the offense cost us this game.
6 baserunners through 9 innings? That says it all.
If the bullpen didn't suck, and if Ozzie didn't make some bad calls, maybe people would have to realize how horrible our offense has been.

The key to beating Cleveland is to get to their lousy bullpen. They didn't get any more baserunners of V than we did off of Sabathia (maybe 1, but not signficant). The differene is that they make pitchers work, and too many of our hitters swing at everything.

TheOldRoman
09-10-2006, 04:29 PM
Guess we should have saved some of yesterdays runs for today? But if we had done that, we'd have lost yesterday considering it was such a close game...
But that is all we can do on offense. We actually had a pretty good offensive game last night. Sure, 7 of our 10 runs came on homers, but we got a lot of hits, and we worked the count. We have been so bad because we can't produce runs and string together hits. When the homers come, we pour it on. When we don't hit homers, the hitters look horrible overmatched and can't do anything.

CHISOXFAN13
09-10-2006, 04:30 PM
Amen. 3.5 out/1.5 out is far from the worst that could have been after this weekend. And the way the tigers are spiraling out of control, they easily could be the ones out of the race shortly. You know todays game could have gone 17 innings and been a loss, and that would have been a whole lot worse heading to the west coast.

If you think the Tigers are spiraling, what exactly are the Sox doing?

No Hafner, yet they win two games here. I'm sorry, but that's just not going to cut it.

Patrick134
09-10-2006, 04:32 PM
If you think the Tigers are spiraling, what exactly are the Sox doing?

No Hafner, yet they win two games here. I'm sorry, but that's just not going to cut it.

The sox are treading water while the tigers are drowning. Of course the sox have to step up and get on a streak here, but if the sox had played horribly the last month, they'd be 10 games out and not 3.5

Myrtle72
09-10-2006, 04:34 PM
If you think the Tigers are spiraling, what exactly are the Sox doing?

Not spiraling... that's for sure. The Tigers are playing just about .400 baseball in their last 32 games at 10-22. We're doing much better than them.

TheOldRoman
09-10-2006, 04:35 PM
Before today Sabathia had been struggling with his control. But we didn't have good at-bats against him. We needed to be patient and we weren't. We needed to make him throw lots of pitches and we didn't.
If you changed the name of the pitcher, this quote cold be posted in probably 100 game threads so far this year. Our offense just doesn't learn. They are going to swing on the first pitch, chase horrible pitches in the dirt, and bail the pitcher out time and time again.

In fact, that quote should be posted on the door of the clubhouse. That just about says is all. If we miss the playoffs, that will be why.

Jerko
09-10-2006, 04:35 PM
Well, these past 3 games (2 which were wins by the way), the Indians have scored 14 runs from the 7th inning on, AND batted around twice. That's Reds bullpen bad.

Myrtle72
09-10-2006, 04:36 PM
...chase horrible pitches in the dirt...

Saw a LOT of that today.

Patrick134
09-10-2006, 04:36 PM
Logan's career may have peaked with the "Booooooone " chant on opening day.

Myrtle72
09-10-2006, 04:37 PM
Logan's career may have peaked with the "Booooooone " chant on opening day.

Ouch.

TheOldRoman
09-10-2006, 04:41 PM
The sox are treading water while the tigers are drowning. Of course the sox have to step up and get on a streak here, but if the sox had played horribly the last month, they'd be 10 games out and not 3.5 They Sox are circling the drain just as fast as Detroit. Sure, they bust out with 8-10 runs every 5 or 6 games just to make people think they are turning it around, but they aren't. The team is going down with its hitting. Every time they have a big win that we think could turn them around, they go out and crap their pants the next day. Just when it looked like our hitters were putting it together, they go out and embarrass themsevles today. It isn't changing. Maybe that one moment will come where they suddenly turn it on and play great ball, but I don't see it.

Minnesota will walk away with the division. It will come down to who can out-crap the other for the Wild Card, us or Detriot. Both teams are plummeting, but Detriot has the luxury of a 3.5 game lead. BTW, we better shore up the Wild Card before we get to Minnesota. Even if the Twins clinch the division before then, they will still throw their top three at us. They have an inferiority complex about the White Sox, and they would hurt their own postseason chances just to kill the Sox off.

greenpeach
09-10-2006, 04:42 PM
Well, now people can see how last night's win, while needed, was costly. If the middle relief guys do their jobs and hold the Indians around 3 or 4 runs, MacDougal, Thornton, etc. would have been available today. Instead, you have to use a struggling middle relief guy in a tie game in the ninth and the results were pretty much as expected.

My nomination for post of the week.

A. Cavatica
09-10-2006, 04:43 PM
If you think the Tigers are spiraling, what exactly are the Sox doing?

No Hafner, yet they win two games here. I'm sorry, but that's just not going to cut it.

I was going to post essentially the same thing.

Tigers go 2-6, but their schedule gets easier now. We go 3-5 against not-very-good competition, and ours gets harder. Time is not on our side. We're not going to catch the Tigers, and we'd better pass the Twins before that final series.

Patrick134
09-10-2006, 04:43 PM
They Sox are circling the drain just as fast as Detroit. Sure, they bust out with 8-10 runs every 5 or 6 games just to make people think they are turning it around, but they aren't. The team is going down with its hitting. Every time they have a big win that we think could turn them around, they go out and crap their pants the next day. Just when it looked like our hitters were putting it together, they go out and embarrass themsevles today. It isn't changing. Maybe that one moment will come where they suddenly turn it on and play great ball, but I don't see it.
Minnesota will walk away with the division. It will come down to who can out-crap the other for the Wild Card, us or Detriot. Both teams are plummeting, but Detriot has the luxury of a 3.5 game lead.
BTW, we better shore up the Wild Card before we get to Minnesota. Even if the Twins clinch the division before then, they will still throw their top three at us. They have an inferiority complex about the White Sox, and they would hurt their own postseason chances just to kill the Sox off.


They'd want to kill the sox off to ensure not seeing them in the playoffs. They'd much rather face Detroit.

kitekrazy
09-10-2006, 04:45 PM
The press conference on Comcast is ugly.

Ozzie claims Thornton and MacDougal weren't available.
This kind of bugged me. The guy in the pen who has the most innings is also the guy giving up the most runs of late-B-Mac.

TheOldRoman
09-10-2006, 04:45 PM
They'd want to kill the sox off to ensure not seeing them in the playoffs. They'd much rather face Detroit.
Why? These Twins are apparently into the heads of the Sox, and they have owned them lately. Aside from this series, they have had trouble with the Tigers. Besides, they wouldn't face either in the first round.

Soxfanspcu11
09-10-2006, 04:45 PM
Did anyone else happen to notice Garcia's dumbass laughing and smiling in the dugout when Tracey was on the mound having all of his troubles? It was right after AJ threw down to third to try and get the Cleveland runner.

I almost exploded when I saw it! *** was he enjoying so much???:?: Did he find some sort of comfort in seeing another pitcher suck nearly as bad as he does?? I can't wait until that loser is gone next year! :angry:

hsnterprize
09-10-2006, 04:46 PM
http://soxmachine.com/images/bullpen.jpg

Our Bullpen the last two games! :angry:
I couldn't have pictured it better myself. The next picture should be Ozzie sitting in front of Lucy's "The Psychiatrist Is In" booth.

Frankly Missing
09-10-2006, 04:47 PM
Have we done Brandon a real disservice by putting him in the bullpen?

Have we screwed up his approach to the game, mentality etc.?

Would he have been better served to stay in AAA and get more starting experience?

Did we screw him up just to use him as a cheap date in the bullpen??

Did we mortgage his future to save some bucks?

I really don't know about these things, but have lay man wondered.

Flight #24
09-10-2006, 04:47 PM
I may be in the minority, but I don't blame Ozzie for this one. Right now, he's got 2 reliable relievers: Thornton & McDougal. And they can't pitch every day. Jenks should be in that group, but with his hip & the Friday outing, who knows what condition he's in?

The real problem is the rest of the guys suck. I would have actually left Riske in rather than bringing in the rookies, but I can see why Ozzie did what he did.

IMO this is going to come down to a WC race between the Tigers & Sox, and whichever team craps the bed less by 10/1 gets to keep playing. I actually think the Sox have a solid shot at it because I think the Tiggers are free falling, but unless they can find some consistency, they're really putting themselves in horrible position.

Patrick134
09-10-2006, 04:47 PM
Did anyone else happen to notice Garcia's dumbass laughing and smiling in the dugout when Tracey was on the mound having all of his troubles? It was right after AJ threw down to third to try and get the Cleveland runner.

I almost exploded when I saw it! *** was he enjoying so much???:?: Did he find some sort of comfort in seeing another pitcher suck nearly as bad as he does?? I can't wait until that loser is gone next year! :angry:

Hmmm was it 4:20 yet at that point ?

Patrick134
09-10-2006, 04:49 PM
I may be in the minority, but I don't blame Ozzie for this one. Right now, he's got 2 reliable relievers: Thornton & McDougal. And they can't pitch every day. Jenks should be in that group, but with his hip & the Friday outing, who knows what condition he's in?

The real problem is the rest of the guys suck. I would have actually left Riske in rather than bringing in the rookies, but I can see why Ozzie did what he did.

IMO this is going to come down to a WC race between the Tigers & Sox, and whichever team craps the bed less by 10/1 gets to keep playing. I actually think the Sox have a solid shot at it because I think the Tiggers are free falling, but unless they can find some consistency, they're really putting themselves in horrible position.

Great point, Ozzie has to go with the guys he has. Besides, this game was done with McCarthys gopher ball.

kitekrazy
09-10-2006, 04:49 PM
In addition to the bullpen, the offense gets some of the blame today too. After the 2nd hitter of the game, they totally shut down.

There seems this trend that after scoring a lot of runs the next day they might score 2.

Lip Man 1
09-10-2006, 04:50 PM
Gee where have we heard THAT before?

Try 2001 through 2004.

Lip

TomParrish79
09-10-2006, 04:52 PM
ehhhh screw it...lets go bowl dude

TheOldRoman
09-10-2006, 04:52 PM
Have we done Brandon a real disservice by putting him in the bullpen?

Have we screwed up his approach to the game, mentality etc.?

Would he have been better served to stay in AAA and get more starting experience?

Did we screw him up just to use him as a cheap date in the bullpen??

Did we mortgage his future to save some bucks?

I really don't know about these things, but have lay man wondered.
Bull****. Dominating in AAA would have done him no good. He needed to face major leaguers. It is nobody's fault but his own that he has crapped his pants this year. I understand that it is harder coming into a game with runners on base, but he should learn to get over it. He is in the pen to get experience and learn to overcome things. If that "ruined" him, then he didn't have to stones to be a major leaguer in the first place.

QCIASOXFAN
09-10-2006, 04:54 PM
Thorton, Jenks and Macdougal are the only people I have any faith in doing an adequate job coming out of the bullpen. If anybody thinks I am wrong please explain.

Soxfanspcu11
09-10-2006, 04:54 PM
Hmmm was it 4:20 yet at that point ?

I think that it was a few minutes before 4:20. He was probably getting gitty thinking about the fatty he had stored in his locker and was wondering how quickly he would be able to smoke it.

In all seriousness though, that really got under my skin. Your team is in a ****ing playoff race and just found a way to blow a HUGE game! Your sitting on the bench laughing??????? Totally unacceptable. That pretty much shows his attitude and why he MUST GO!

Myrtle72
09-10-2006, 04:54 PM
Well, we could argue for days about what constitutes "spiraling out of control" and what doesn't, but regardless, I don't believe the Sox are doing quite as poorly as everyone thinks. They have high standards to live up to based on last year which has been a blessing and a curse for them all year long. Compare them to some previous years and they're doing great. Or at least better.

And regardless of what happens, I am excited about this tight race we have going on. We are the only division besides the NL west that has such a close race and to be honest, it's more fun this way, I think. Sure, the Yankees have it made, but thats not nearly as exciting as our race. And maybe you all will say that you'd rather be 10 games up in the division like the Yankees, but c'mon, you like having your blood pressure skyrocket during each game. This is what baseball (and all sports for that matter) is all about. So, enjoy it.

Tragg
09-10-2006, 04:57 PM
Our offense just doesn't learn. They are going to swing on the first pitch, chase horrible pitches in the dirt, and bail the pitcher out time and time again.

In fact, that quote should be posted on the door of the clubhouse. That just about says is all. If we miss the playoffs, that will be why.
Are they taught any different? Do our coaches preach plate patience?
We affirmatively aquire players with the swing at everything philosophy.
That's what we are.
Pods and Iguchi pulled us out of that at the top of the order last year...Pods struggles this year ended it.

Myrtle72
09-10-2006, 05:01 PM
Are they taught any different? Do our coaches preach plate patience?
We affirmatively aquire players with the swing at everything philosophy.
That's what we are.
Pods and Iguchi pulled us out of that at the top of the order last year...Pods struggles this year ended it.

To be honest, AJ has always been a player to swing at everything... and no one ever really cares unless he strikes out. But he has a pretty good ability to foul off pitches that are no where near the strike zone.

TheOldRoman
09-10-2006, 05:02 PM
Are they taught any different? Do our coaches preach plate patience?
We affirmatively aquire players with the swing at everything philosophy.
That's what we are.
Pods and Iguchi pulled us out of that at the top of the order last year...Pods struggles this year ended it.
Well, I have called for Walker's head for a while now. These hitters, most notably Uribe CAN be patient at times. I think they lose concentration, get into ruts too quickly, and then start trying to hit it 600 feet on every pitch. Walker needs to reinforce patience and concentration. It rubs off from one player to another. When the offense is hot, they are taking pitches, and hitting the ball the other way. When they are ice cold, they are swinging at the first pitch and trying to pull everything out of the park. Someone needs to beat it into these hitters' heads.

kitekrazy
09-10-2006, 05:03 PM
Right and the twins play 3 now against Oakland, and with Santana not pitching that series, I expect Oakland to take at least 2 games.

The Sox better take care of business against the Angels. If the Sox get swept the Angels are a half game behind them.

The Sox show no signs of playing together as a quality team. Good startgn pitching is ruined by the bullpen or the offense. They show hints of good baseball for maybe a game at most. They may put themselves out of the playoffs at the end of next weekend.

kitekrazy
09-10-2006, 05:08 PM
The key to beating Cleveland is to get to their lousy bullpen.

I could see someone in Cleveland saying, "The key to beating the Sox is to get to their lousy bullpen".

I guess it worked for both teams.

BeviBall!
09-10-2006, 05:09 PM
If the Bears weren't on right now, this thread would be 150+ posts by now. Bottom line, this game was lost last night. No Thornton or MacDougal because they were needed to protect a game in which we led by 9.

The Enron ride continueth.

Malgar 12
09-10-2006, 05:11 PM
The press conference on Comcast is ugly.

Ozzie claims Thornton and MacDougal weren't available.

That's amusing. If he had left Garland in last night...they probably would be.

kitekrazy
09-10-2006, 05:13 PM
If you think the Tigers are spiraling, what exactly are the Sox doing?

No Hafner, yet they win two games here. I'm sorry, but that's just not going to cut it.

The Tigers came out of nowhere. It's not like they are the defending World champs either.

spiffie
09-10-2006, 05:13 PM
That's amusing. If he had left Garland in last night...they probably would be.
Yeah, he was up 10-1 and Garland was at 100+ pitches. If he would have left in Garland in what looked like a blowout at that point everyone would have been going nuts, and rightfully so.

Sox-o-matic
09-10-2006, 05:19 PM
time and again Ozzie puts McCarthy in a situation where he isn't going to suceede, Bobby should have been out there, and the offense approach at the plate was horrid, and Thome shouldn't have been able to see CC for the fourth time.

Hats off to Javy 7IP 2BB 4H, 10K 2ER, another masterful performance, alls we need is our pitching to sustain and Jenks to get healthy, Detroit is in free fall and there we still have 3 games against them and 3 against the twins. Left handers always give us fits so what new. No use getting angry GO Bears! and i hope everyone enjoys this awesome fall day.

Please tell me then, in what role besides starting pitcher is Brandon likely to succeed in? He's been in just about every situation there is this year and he has sucked bad when we needed him most. His ERA is very misleading, too. I can't believe it's under 5.00.

Oh yeah, and like just about everyone in this bullpen minus Jenks, MacDougal, and Thornton, he's terrible with inherited runners.

Brandon right now seems to be pitching himself into the Neal Cotts Doghouse.

kitekrazy
09-10-2006, 05:21 PM
Are they taught any different? Do our coaches preach plate patience?
We affirmatively aquire players with the swing at everything philosophy.
That's what we are.
Pods and Iguchi pulled us out of that at the top of the order last year...Pods struggles this year ended it.

I think it runs deep in the organization.

Kenny wants grinders but they seem to have come from the outside. The Twins get them from the inside.

TheOldRoman
09-10-2006, 05:23 PM
That's amusing. If he had left Garland in last night...they probably would be.
I agree! So what if Garland had already thrown 106 pitches and he had a 9 run lead. I wan't our starters out there past 150 pitches routinely! Fire Ozzie!

Tragg
09-10-2006, 05:27 PM
I could see someone in Cleveland saying, "The key to beating the Sox is to get to their lousy bullpen".

I guess it worked for both teams. Well, they did it; we didn't.

I guess I should have said the key to beating Cleveland WHEN SABATHIA'S pitching is to get to their bullpen.

kitekrazy
09-10-2006, 05:28 PM
This kind of bugged me. The guy in the pen who has the most innings is also the guy giving up the most runs of late-Fingernails on a blackboard.
So which one of you Mods altered this post?

Here is the original.

This kind of bugged me. The guy in the pen who has the most innings is also the guy giving up the most runs of late-Brandon McCarthy.

Myrtle72
09-10-2006, 05:29 PM
So which one of you Mods altered this post?

Here is the original.

This kind of bugged me. The guy in the pen who has the most innings is also the guy giving up the most runs of late-Brandon McCarthy.

Um... they're exactly the same.

Myrtle72
09-10-2006, 05:30 PM
Um... they're exactly the same.

Nevermind... its changed now.

Tragg
09-10-2006, 05:32 PM
I think it runs deep in the organization.

Kenny wants grinders but they seem to have come from the outside. The Twins get them from the inside.
Kenny runs the organization...why doesn't he try to fix this? Probably does - not that easy.

soxwon
09-10-2006, 05:34 PM
We should make a commercail "how many pitchers does it take to get 3 outs" kind of like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop. Unreal!

wouldnt know after 2 licks
i crunch down and chew.

kitekrazy
09-10-2006, 05:42 PM
Please tell me then, in what role besides starting pitcher is Brandon likely to succeed in? He's been in just about every situation there is this year and he has sucked bad when we needed him most. His ERA is very misleading, too. I can't believe it's under 5.00.


Starting is different. You come in at the beginning of every inning with no one on. Every runner on base is your responsibility.

Hopefully he's learned that guys in the big leagues can hit a 90+ fast ball if it over the plate.

TheOldRoman
09-10-2006, 05:46 PM
So which one of you Mods altered this post?

Here is the original.

This kind of bugged me. The guy in the pen who has the most innings is also the guy giving up the most runs of late-Brandon McCarthy.
You typed B followed by Mac.
There is an auto-replace on the board that changes that to F.o.b

Myrtle72
09-10-2006, 05:48 PM
You typed B followed by Mac.
There is an auto-replace on the board that changes that to F.o.b

Haha. Why, exactly?

kitekrazy
09-10-2006, 05:51 PM
You typed B followed by Mac.
There is an auto-replace on the board that changes that to F.o.b
Why? How about every time Dye is spelled change it to Mr.MVP.

Sox-o-matic
09-10-2006, 05:51 PM
Starting is different. You come in at the beginning of every inning with no one on. Every runner on base is your responsibility.

Hopefully he's learned that guys in the big leagues can hit a 90+ fast ball if it over the plate.

It's not the speed that is the problem, it is the total lack of movement. I'm starting to wish that KW had traded Brandon because I'm really beginning to doubt Brandon's ability to 1. be pinpoint all the time with his arrow straight fastball and 2. get his change and curve working in every single outing. That is what it will take for Brandon to be successful as a starter.

Also, despite the huge difference in the number of innings that Brandon would have had in AAA as a starter and the number of innings Brandon has had in the bullpen, Brandon has been given a chance to develop in pressure situations. So far, the results haven't been good and it's looking like Brandon may have a huge problem as a starter when he gets RISP in a close game.

SOXandILLINI
09-10-2006, 05:53 PM
Ozzie is a..... :supernana:

captain54
09-10-2006, 05:56 PM
I was going to post essentially the same thing.

Tigers go 2-6, but their schedule gets easier now. We go 3-5 against not-very-good competition, and ours gets harder. Time is not on our side. We're not going to catch the Tigers, and we'd better pass the Twins before that final series.

On paper the Tiger's schedule gets easier, but they play the Royals a bunch and they have a bunch of young players that can hit...

The Twins are only one game down in the loss column from the Tigers...I think the Twins could easily take over the Tigers...Detroit is in total disarray..

the White Sox at this point look like they have the most difficult schedule out of the three teams...I think its going to be between Detroit and the Sox for the wild card...

southside rocks
09-10-2006, 05:57 PM
Well, pardon my optimism, but I still love Ozzie, I still believe the Sox will be in the playoffs, and I would have been absolutely dazzled if they'd managed to beat C. C. Sabathia, who pretty much owns the Sox this season. But it generally does take more than 2 runs to win, especially this year for this team.

Vazquez did a nice job, and he seems to have turned a lot of things around since his sojourn in the dismals in mid-summer. I think he could be a big part of the starting rotation in 2007. I hope so, anyway.

MarySwiss
09-10-2006, 05:58 PM
The press conference on Comcast is ugly.

Ozzie claims Thornton and MacDougal weren't available.

Sorry, but ***? THIS IS A PENNANT RACE!! It's not like they pitched 6 innings each yesterday.

To my mind, this ranks right up there with Garner's stupid decision to pull Backe last year in Game Four. Okay, he threw a lot of pitches. But what the hell were you saving him for; if you lost the game, it was over. Although our predicament is not nearly as dire (yet!), IMO, the decision to not pitch the two guys in your bullpen who have been lights out lately was a bad one.

Edit: BTW, I was delighted with Garner's stupid decision last year!

TheOldRoman
09-10-2006, 05:58 PM
Why? How about every time Dye is spelled change it to Mr.MVP. Because, to FarWest, the name B.Mac is like the sound of fingernails on a blackboard.

kitekrazy
09-10-2006, 05:59 PM
It's not the speed that is the problem, it is the total lack of movement. I'm starting to wish that KW had traded Brandon because I'm really beginning to doubt Brandon's ability to 1. be pinpoint all the time with his arrow straight fastball and 2. get his change and curve working in every single outing. That is what it will take for Brandon to be successful as a starter.


Oh well I thought Garland should have been traded in 2004. I thought after last season he should've been traded because his value was high and I thought it was a fluke.

Brandon is a rookie. I don't think you give up on a guy that fast when below average pitchers like Loaiza is making 6mil this year.

Do you think another bat in the lineup would help? We could probably win a few more 10-9 games. Aren't we modeling 2003 enough already?

southside rocks
09-10-2006, 06:01 PM
Sorry, but ***? THIS IS A PENNANT RACE!! It's not like they pitched 6 innings each yesterday.

To my mind, this ranks right up there with Garner's stupid decision to pull Backe last year in Game Four. Okay, he threw a lot of pitches. But what the hell were you saving him for; if you lost the game, it was over. Although our predicament is not nearly as dire (yet!), IMO, the decision to not pitch the two guys in your bullpen who have been lights out lately was a bad one.
MacDougal pitched 4 innings over the last two games. He wasn't available today; that's a lot of work for a short reliever, particularly one who throws as hard as Mac does.

Thornton could have pitched today. Ozzie said after the game that he was holding him out to close, if he needed him.

Nobody's mentioning Jenks, which in itself is interesting.

MarySwiss
09-10-2006, 06:03 PM
MacDougal pitched 4 innings over the last two games. He wasn't available today; that's a lot of work for a short reliever, particularly one who throws as hard as Mac does.

Thornton could have pitched today. Ozzie said after the game that he was holding him out to close, if he needed him.

Nobody's mentioning Jenks, which in itself is interesting.

Yes, it is. Especially as he was warming up at one point. :?:

southside rocks
09-10-2006, 06:05 PM
Yep. I'm a little worried about Big Bobby. I hope it's a needless worry.

I'm worried about Crede, too, with that back. :(:

A. Cavatica
09-10-2006, 06:09 PM
B.Mac

Quit intentionally evading the language filter.

Myrtle72
09-10-2006, 06:10 PM
I'm worried about Crede, too, with that back. :(:

I was too, until he made that awesome diving catch at 3B to make a double play. Yay for Crede! :smile:

Sox-o-matic
09-10-2006, 06:49 PM
Oh well I thought Garland should have been traded in 2004. I thought after last season he should've been traded because his value was high and I thought it was a fluke.

Brandon is a rookie. I don't think you give up on a guy that fast when below average pitchers like Loaiza is making 6mil this year.

Do you think another bat in the lineup would help? We could probably win a few more 10-9 games. Aren't we modeling 2003 enough already?

First of all, Garland's problem seemed to have more to do with maturing as a pitcher and learning how to get out of jams. He has always had the talent and the potential.

Jon has a few weapons in his arsenal. He is a groundball pitcher first and foremost and can use his fastball (which is much better than Brandon's) and his change very well.

Brandon OTOH is a flyball/strikeout pitcher with little velocity and no movement. If he is not pinpoint he gets crushed. He has a good change and a nice curveball when he's on, but he can not afford to be off with those pitches either because then hitters just sit on his fastball.

Just because Brandon hasn't had a full season as a starter doesn't mean you can assume he will have a great career at the MLB level. And just because you thought Jon should be traded last offseason and were proven wrong, doesn't mean you can compare him to Brandon. Garland is a better pitcher and is a better fit for this team in this ballpark.

And as far as not being able to let a guy go because he doesn't make much money, well, that doesn't make a lot of sense. If you can possibly trade him for a better position player not making much then you can still lower your salary and improve at the same time.

I'm not saying Brandon won't have a decent career either, but I am saying that it will be tougher for Brandon to succeed than any other pitcher in our rotation. As far as starters go he is 6th on this team as far as stuff is concerned, he is 6th on this team in experience, and the only reason he is loved so much around here is because he is 6th on this team in salary.

DickAllen72
09-10-2006, 06:51 PM
now we know why ozzie wouldn't put Fingernails on a blackboard in the rotation. only one word can describe our bullpen, disgusting!

McCarthy is not cut out for the bullpen. If they wanted to "strengthen his core" this season, he should have been starting every fifth day for Charlotte, and spot starting whenever the Sox needed him.

Lip Man 1
09-10-2006, 06:55 PM
Did you realize this is the 4th straight start Vasquez has allowed two runs or less and he has ZERO wins to show for it?

Also on whitesox.com in the game wrap there were a few quotes that raised my eyebrows.

Here they be:


"Some of us are scuffling. Maybe it's just late in the season. I don't know what it is. But I just think it kind of spreads a little bit; a lack of confidence spreads." -- Brandon McCarthy.

"We'll have a tough time going out there. It's going to be tough, no doubt. We don't do well in Oakland, but every game is key." -- Jermaine Dye

McCarthy sounds like Politte and Cotts who both made statements along the same lines (i.e. confidence...)

Lip

SoxSpeed22
09-10-2006, 06:56 PM
Ozzie is a..... :supernana:My spoon's too big.
My spoon's too big!
Seriously though, everyone below JD in the order, you guys sucked.

CYGarland20
09-10-2006, 06:56 PM
This one certainly isn't a backbreaker but it hurts because we had the chance to win a series and close to 2.5 games of Detroit before heading out on a tough 6 game west coast trip. 4 of 6 on this trip is a must.4 of 6 against LA and Oakland? That would be a miracle. I would be happy with 3-3, and wouldnt be surprised with 2-4 or even 1-5......We had another golden opportunity to pick us some ground in the race against a weakend Indians team missing their best hitter, and Detroit and Minny going at it......... and we could only split. We better hope Detroit keeps tanking it, because were not going to pass Minnesota.....

Sox-o-matic
09-10-2006, 06:58 PM
McCarthy is not cut out for the bullpen. If they wanted to "strengthen his core" this season, he should have been starting every fifth day for Charlotte, and spot starting whenever the Sox needed him.

I agree that he hasn't been 'strengtheing his core' but I still think the Sox made the right decision on him, even though he hasn't performed well in the bullpen. He has been given that chance to improve in pressure situations and he hasn't been able to. Even in an interview recently he said something about finding it hard to take game pressure situations as 'immediate.' Well if you can't do that in the bullpen when that is exactly your job 70% of the time, then how in the hell are you going to be able to do that as a starter when those situations become more sporadic?

I think KW and co. just picked the wrong words to describe the way they want to delevop McCarthy.

Sox-o-matic
09-10-2006, 07:01 PM
Did you realize this is the 4th straight start Vasquez has allowed two runs or less and he has ZERO wins to show for it?

Also on whitesox.com in the game wrap there were a few quotes that raised my eyebrows.

Here they be:


"Some of us are scuffling. Maybe it's just late in the season. I don't know what it is. But I just think it kind of spreads a little bit; a lack of confidence spreads." -- Brandon McCarthy.

"We'll have a tough time going out there. It's going to be tough, no doubt. We don't do well in Oakland, but every game is key." -- Jermaine Dye

McCarthy sounds like Politte and Cotts who both made statements along the same lines (i.e. confidence...)

Lip

Brandon should speak for himself. What Dye said is the truth and everyone knows it. Oakland is a good team that can beat you in a lot of ways and the Sox do in fact have a history of losing in Oakland.

doctorlecter
09-10-2006, 07:02 PM
Sorry, but ***? THIS IS A PENNANT RACE!! It's not like they pitched 6 innings each yesterday.

To my mind, this ranks right up there with Garner's stupid decision to pull Backe last year in Game Four. Okay, he threw a lot of pitches. But what the hell were you saving him for; if you lost the game, it was over. Although our predicament is not nearly as dire (yet!), IMO, the decision to not pitch the two guys in your bullpen who have been lights out lately was a bad one.

Edit: BTW, I was delighted with Garner's stupid decision last year!
I think that the bad decision was made yesterday when Ozzie pulled MacDougal with one more out to go. He was lights-out, and you made Thornton unavailable for today. Almost no one will pitch three consecutive days in this current era.

Lip Man 1
09-10-2006, 07:06 PM
Remember according to the papers today Ozzie said he had a 'gut-feeling' about bringing in Thornton.

But then Ozzie will go out and use that BS 'match-up' crap thinking he's the next Tony LaRussa.

So which is it Ozzie? Are you going to go with your gut or the percentages? Pick a side and stay with it.

Personally without going through every box score my impression is that he's been burned much more with the 'percentage' garbage then his 'gut' feeling.

Lip

Sox-o-matic
09-10-2006, 07:15 PM
Remember according to the papers today Ozzie said he had a 'gut-feeling' about bringing in Thornton.

But then Ozzie will go out and use that BS 'match-up' crap thinking he's the next Tony LaRussa.

So which is it Ozzie? Are you going to go with your gut or the percentages? Pick a side and stay with it.

Personally without going through every box score my impression is that he's been burned much more with the 'percentage' garbage then his 'gut' feeling.

Lip

His matchups have actually seemed to work quite well when determing a pinch hitter, so maybe that influences him to do the same thing with the bullpen?

We always hear (usually from Hawk) about Ozzie putting confidence in his pitchers, so why does he have to keep doing this crap? First of all, if a pitcher can not get out left handers AND right handers he has no buisness in the major leagues, period. Why Ozzie doesn't let a guy who is racking up outs stay on the mound is beyond me.

Last year Ozzie was complimented a lot on the usage of his bullpen, and I actually think he did a very good job at that last year. The problem is though that last years bulllpen was full of guys who could get the job done. This year we have three guys. You can't manage the 2006 bullpen like the 2005 bullpen when the 2006 bullpen can't find consistency.

southside rocks
09-10-2006, 07:17 PM
I think that the bad decision was made yesterday when Ozzie pulled MacDougal with one more out to go. He was lights-out, and you made Thornton unavailable for today. Almost no one will pitch three consecutive days in this current era.

Thornton wasn't unavailable today, he was being saved in case the game went into extra innings, had the Sox tied it in the 9th. Or that's what Ozzie said in the post-game, anyway.

JB98
09-10-2006, 07:24 PM
I didn't particularly enjoy my afternoon at the Cell. Crummy weather, crummy game.

I think today's loss goes back to yesterday's bullpen woes. It's just ridiculous that MacDougal and Thornton had to be used in a game where we once had a 10-1 lead. Today, we had a situation in the top of the ninth inning that called for MacDougal, but he was unavailable because there was no choice but to use him last night once the score went to 10-8. McCarthy, Cotts and Riske are not doing their job, and it is killing this team. Those guys need to close out games such as last night, so we can save our best relievers for tight games such as today's.

That said, I thought Ozzie made a mistake when he took Riske out in the ninth inning today. We were down 4-2, two outs, man at first and Inglett at the plate. To me, that is not a dangerous situation. No need to play matchups there. Ozzie disagreed. He brings in Logan, who pissed his pants, forcing Ozzie to bring in Tracey, who also pissed his pants. Logan has shown me next to nothing this year. Not that Riske is great. He's mediocre at best, but I still trust him over a rookie left-hander. With no one in scoring position, Inglett was not in a position to hurt us. Why not stick with the veteran Riske and ask him to get the third out?

Ultimately, that's the difference between a 4-2 loss and a 5-2 loss, but I'm getting to a point where I wish we hadn't called anybody up for September. Ozzie is giving these rookie pitchers too much responsibility in key situations.

CLR01
09-10-2006, 07:38 PM
Thornton wasn't unavailable today, he was being saved in case the game went into extra innings, had the Sox tied it in the 9th. Or that's what Ozzie said in the post-game, anyway.


Ozzie's full of crap. Everyone knows he would have bought Haeger and Hermie in before he went to Thornton. He didn't have a clue in the 9th inning today.

Grzegorz
09-10-2006, 08:35 PM
Did anyone else happen to notice Garcia's dumbass laughing and smiling in the dugout when Tracey was on the mound having all of his troubles? It was right after AJ threw down to third to try and get the Cleveland runner.


Yes, I did but wasn't that Ozzie right next to him?

I also saw the first and second baseman of the Indians smiling when they dropped Crede's foul pop-up. Not funny boys considering communication, taking an angle on the ball, and facing the field of play when making a play are all taught in Little League.

Chicken Dinner
09-10-2006, 08:42 PM
How many times is Ozzie going to save guys for tomorrow when there might not be one. Win now or go home and make television specials that has nothing to do with the Sox or baseball.

Flight #24
09-10-2006, 08:45 PM
Sorry, but ***? THIS IS A PENNANT RACE!! It's not like they pitched 6 innings each yesterday.

To my mind, this ranks right up there with Garner's stupid decision to pull Backe last year in Game Four. Okay, he threw a lot of pitches. But what the hell were you saving him for; if you lost the game, it was over. Although our predicament is not nearly as dire (yet!), IMO, the decision to not pitch the two guys in your bullpen who have been lights out lately was a bad one.

Edit: BTW, I was delighted with Garner's stupid decision last year!

Difference is that in Garner's case, there's no more games left to play. In Ozzie's, there's a whole month left. You can't burn out 1 or 2 guys that you are pretty sure you'll need for multiple wins the next month just to get 1 now. It sucks, but that's what happens when you have a bullpen of 2.

The real culprit here, IMO is Jenks injury (or whatever it was). If he's his usual self, he finishes the deal on Fri, and then probably comes in today (or Sat, saving one of Thornton/McDougal for today).

Chicken Dinner
09-10-2006, 08:48 PM
Difference is that in Garner's case, there's no more games left to play. In Ozzie's, there's a whole month left. You can't burn out 1 or 2 guys that you are pretty sure you'll need for multiple wins the next month just to get 1 now. It sucks, but that's what happens when you have a bullpen of 2.

The real culprit here, IMO is Jenks injury (or whatever it was). If he's his usual self, he finishes the deal on Fri, and then probably comes in today (or Sat, saving one of Thornton/McDougal for today).

My calender says 9/10. That isn't a month and we're back in the standings. This thing is all most over. Hello!

CHISOXFAN13
09-10-2006, 08:50 PM
Thornton wasn't unavailable today, he was being saved in case the game went into extra innings, had the Sox tied it in the 9th. Or that's what Ozzie said in the post-game, anyway.

LOL. That makes no sense. If Thornton was available, he should have been pitching in a crucial situation. Saving the best available reliever in case we tie it?

Yeah, that's it.

tstrike2000
09-10-2006, 08:59 PM
With our bullpen, who needs enemies?

Fake Chet Lemon
09-10-2006, 09:10 PM
McCarthy is not cut out for the bullpen. If they wanted to "strengthen his core" this season, he should have been starting every fifth day for Charlotte, and spot starting whenever the Sox needed him.

I think we should develop all young infielders in the outfield too from now on. All young shortstops play a season in Center Field starting right now. Makes almost as much sense as what they did to McCarthy this year.

samram
09-10-2006, 09:10 PM
LOL. That makes no sense. If Thornton was available, he should have been pitching in a crucial situation. Saving the best available reliever in case we tie it?

Yeah, that's it.

Yeah, especially with the game tied playing at home. It's not like there was a save opportunity once the ninth inning started.

slobes
09-10-2006, 09:12 PM
Thornton wasn't unavailable today, he was being saved in case the game went into extra innings, had the Sox tied it in the 9th. Or that's what Ozzie said in the post-game, anyway.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Our best pitchers should have been out there when the game was on the line. BMac should not have been in in the 9th.

FarWestChicago
09-10-2006, 09:13 PM
Fingernails on a blackboard should not have been in in the 9th.Why not? There are several people around here who think Fingernails is our best pitcher. :redneck

Chips
09-10-2006, 09:31 PM
Why not? There are several people around here who think Fingernails is our best pitcher. :redneck

I'm glad they're not in charge. When was the last time McCarthy had a decent outing? :dunno:

Chips
09-10-2006, 09:33 PM
Look on the bright side.

We went into the series 5.5 back in the division.

We end the series 3.5 back in the division.

:sunshine:

OakLawnDJ
09-10-2006, 09:33 PM
I'm glad they're not in charge. When was the last time McCarthy had a decent outing? :dunno:

Before the allstar break... he was decent back then. Since then... well... we all know what he's like now... and it's unfortunate, because before the break, he was the one I often hoped to see in relief situations.

soxinem1
09-10-2006, 09:35 PM
I just want to know why Ozzie had Josh Fields ready to make his ML debut representing the tying run, if he would have batted? With Gload, Mac, Cintron, and others, why him in that instance?

OakLawnDJ
09-10-2006, 09:36 PM
...
That said, I thought Ozzie made a mistake when he took Riske out in the ninth inning today. We were down 4-2, two outs, man at first and Inglett at the plate. To me, that is not a dangerous situation. No need to play matchups there. Ozzie disagreed. He brings in Logan, who pissed his pants, forcing Ozzie to bring in Tracey, who also pissed his pants. Logan has shown me next to nothing this year. Not that Riske is great. He's mediocre at best, but I still trust him over a rookie left-hander. With no one in scoring position, Inglett was not in a position to hurt us. Why not stick with the veteran Riske and ask him to get the third out?

Ultimately, that's the difference between a 4-2 loss and a 5-2 loss, but I'm getting to a point where I wish we hadn't called anybody up for September. Ozzie is giving these rookie pitchers too much responsibility in key situations.

I entirely agree. Like I've said before, leave in Cotts or Riske. While Cotts may have been shaky lately, I still think he's going to come around sooner or later - it might have been today, considering he may have pulled a double play if the grass weren't wet (you never know... he did try to turn to pull it off, but slipped). And Riske's proven himself able to get out of situations like that too... switching pitchers for every batter only wastes pitchers.

palehozenychicty
09-10-2006, 09:48 PM
Look on the bright side.

We went into the series 5.5 back in the division.

We end the series 3.5 back in the division.

:sunshine:


Amen. Now if we can gain a game or two this week, we will be even more successful.

A. Cavatica
09-10-2006, 10:03 PM
We went in 4.5 back in the division.

ChiSoxGirl
09-10-2006, 10:08 PM
Before the allstar break... he was decent back then. Since then... well... we all know what he's like now... and it's unfortunate, because before the break, he was the one I often hoped to see in relief situations.

Actually, McCarthy relieved Contreras after 2 2/3 innings on Aug. 26 against the Twins. I was at the game and just looked back at my scorebook- he pitched 5 1/3 innings, only giving up a solo homerun to Torii Hunter. Since then... not good!

Cuck the Fubs
09-10-2006, 10:09 PM
Well I see the ledge is overflowing

Sox & Twins will be in the playoffs........

as what is to be determined.

relax people

Chips
09-10-2006, 10:10 PM
Actually, McCarthy relieved Contreras after 2 2/3 innings on Aug. 26 against the Twins. I was at the game and just looked back at my scorebook- he pitched 5 1/3 innings, only giving up a solo homerun to Torii Hunter. Since then... not good!

I forgot about that game. Other than that, he's been pretty much useless.

Ol' No. 2
09-10-2006, 10:16 PM
How about those Bears?

jenn2080
09-10-2006, 10:28 PM
I forgot about that game. Other than that, he's been pretty much useless.


the vazquez cotts riske combo usually makes me ill. today was just ridiculous. good for cotts for actually getting an out.

Chips
09-10-2006, 10:30 PM
What really bothered me today was the pitching staff inability to throw a ****ing strike. Seemed like every count from the 7th inning on was 2-0, 3-1, 3-2, 2-2, etc. Way too many pitches. The only strikes McCarthy threw were taken for hits. Logan count find the strike zone to save his life. Just throw strikes.

Chicken Dinner
09-10-2006, 10:32 PM
the vazquez cotts riske combo usually makes me ill. today was just ridiculous. good for cotts for actually getting an out.

It was a sac bunt that he got the out on but I guess your right, kudos for getting an out.

Dick Allen
09-10-2006, 10:33 PM
What really bothered me today was the pitching staff inability to throw a ****ing strike. Seemed like every count from the 7th inning on was 2-0, 3-1, 3-2, 2-2, etc. Way too many pitches. The only strikes McCarthy threw were taken for hits. Logan count find the strike zone to save his life. Just throw strikes.Stevie Wonder behind home plate certainly didn't help McCarthy any.

sox647
09-10-2006, 10:43 PM
at least it didn't rain...

We'll get more wins.

Go Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim!

Chips
09-10-2006, 10:44 PM
Stevie Wonder behind home plate certainly didn't help McCarthy any.

Were they bad calls? I can't exactly judge balls and strikes too good at the park.

Chips
09-10-2006, 11:56 PM
Well, now people can see how last night's win, while needed, was costly. If the middle relief guys do their jobs and hold the Indians around 3 or 4 runs, MacDougal, Thornton, etc. would have been available today. Instead, you have to use a struggling middle relief guy in a tie game in the ninth and the results were pretty much as expected.

It didn't help that Captain Cheeseburger shut our offense down.

TheOldRoman
09-11-2006, 12:29 AM
Stevie Wonder behind home plate certainly didn't help McCarthy any.
An umpire with an unfair, biased strikezone making critical calls that hurt the Sox? Well, that's a first this year.

Frankfan4life
09-11-2006, 05:19 AM
Every loss is so predictable. I was at the game today and sure enough, even though Vazquez pitched well enough to win, he hit the wall in the 6th. The offense swung at anything remotely close to the plate and, of course, the middle relief totally stunk up the joint. Unfortunately, this pattern seems to be set in stone.

The Jndians were taking good cuts and working the counts. I pretty much called their home run.

A 2-0 win with this team? NOT LIKELY!!!!

Dan H
09-11-2006, 06:14 AM
Regardless of how the first 3 games went, I had a feeling going in Sabathia would be tough again.

I agree about Sabathia and that was why getting stomped in game one hurt more. It is hard to win a four game series no matter who you are playing and dropping game one makes it almost impossible. We can get mad at Ozzie for any number of things, but we can't blame him because his one time ace can't get past the fourth inning and a young phenom suddenly goes into a slump.

itsnotrequired
09-11-2006, 08:26 AM
What is it about this bullpen that makes me want to rip my hair out?

Sig update time...

1917
09-11-2006, 08:35 AM
Go Bears

Dick Allen
09-11-2006, 08:44 AM
Were they bad calls? I can't exactly judge balls and strikes too good at the park.Ball 3 was a strike, got the outer portion of most normal people's plate. Ball 1 was borderline on the inside corner, it had beencalled a strike earlier in the game.

soxfanatlanta
09-11-2006, 08:52 AM
What is it about this bullpen that makes me want to rip my hair out?

Could it be the fact that they are imploding at a very bad time? Or that they are inconsistent? Pass the maalox; it's gonna be a bumpy few weeks. Let's just hope the wagon wheels come off of Detroit, and we put together a decent run.

I really dislike relying on the failure of others to get into the playoffs, but it is what it is.

Flight #24
09-11-2006, 09:20 AM
Were they bad calls? I can't exactly judge balls and strikes too good at the park.

From behind the Sox on-deck circle, it sure looked like the 3 pitches McCarthy threw to Martinez were extremely close, hard to believe all 3 were balls. Of course, when you take a guy who's struggling a bit and make him throw cookies to a great hitter to avoid walking the leadoff guy in the 9th.......

That said, I think in that situation I might have rather had the leadoff walk. No disrespect to Donnie Garko & co, but I wouldn't have been upset to pitch around Victor and go after the other guys.

ws05champs
09-11-2006, 09:30 AM
No matter what the bullpen did, we still needed to score more runs. Sabathia has an ERA of 3.24 and once again our hitting can't even equal the pitcher's ERA.