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View Full Version : Theo's honeymoon is OVAH!


Fenway
09-08-2006, 10:10 AM
The senior baseball writer of the Boston Globe is going after Theo earlier than expected and frankly fans are beginning to wonder if Epstein maybe in over his head.

He has made some great moves ( picking up Ortiz in Filenes Basement is #1 ) but he has a lot of clunkers. This could be one very ugly off season in Beantown.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/09/08/recent_developments_are_not_easy_to_deal_with/?page=full

Epstein, like most of his peers, have long argued that one must take the long view of any trade. A sensible policy, of course. But this is one week where if you were standing on the ``T" and Theo offered to trade places, you might first want to check what's under his seat.

Flight #24
09-08-2006, 10:26 AM
IMO he's been living off of that Ortiz signing for years. That and the '04 title have the locals thinking he can do no wrong and subscribing to the "well, bad results are just bad luck because the decisions were good at the time they were made" BP-esque mantra.

Obviously, winning a title is a big deal. But since then he's made bad move after bad move. And for the record, it looks like Kenny made a bad move after his title (Young for Javy), but it remains to be seen if that continues over multiple offseasons. And he was a lot more responsible for the Chicago title than Theo was for the Boston one having inherited Pedro, Lowe, Damon, Manny, Varitek.

hawkjt
09-08-2006, 11:08 AM
The white sox seem to be on a parallel track as the red sox. Win a WS, then fall off to barely making the playoffs and being swept(hope the sox make it,anyway) and then trying to add vets around the core(manny,papi) and falling off even more while seeing good youngsters they traded for the vets excel elsewhere.

It is a dilemma - kenny felt he had the core group to repeat with some tinkering and it falls flat- now what? blow it up just when the fan base is back in huge numbers? the kids can play all over again? Boston cannot just blow it up with the expectations in new england and with manny and papi.

I think kenny almost has to give the bulk of this team one more shot and hope the pitching comes back to 05 form- cept for the obvious tinkering- freddy gone- what is the shelf life on a WS title for a team and town that had an 88 year drought?

About one more year , I think. Sure hope Theo took advantage of being big man on campus while he could cuz he is in a precarious position with red sox fans demanding his head.

Fenway
09-08-2006, 11:11 AM
IMO he's been living off of that Ortiz signing for years. That and the '04 title have the locals thinking he can do no wrong and subscribing to the "well, bad results are just bad luck because the decisions were good at the time they were made" BP-esque mantra.

Obviously, winning a title is a big deal. But since then he's made bad move after bad move. And for the record, it looks like Kenny made a bad move after his title (Young for Javy), but it remains to be seen if that continues over multiple offseasons. And he was a lot more responsible for the Chicago title than Theo was for the Boston one having inherited Pedro, Lowe, Damon, Manny, Varitek.

Jim Hendry of the Cubs was more responsible for the Nomar deal than Theo was as it was him that brought Minnesota and Montreal into the picture, Theo was under orders to get rid of Nomar for a bag of balls at that point.

Duquette doesn't get the credit he deserves for the 2004 team. Getting Veritek and Lowe for Heathcliff Slocumb was one of the biggest steals in trade deadline history.

The Boston GM job is a no win situation. At the prices the Red Sox charge and being in the same division as New York it is next to impossible to have a rebuilding year and ownership wants to fill all the overpriced roof seats they have created.

I have no idea what they plan to do, and I'm not sure they do either.

southside rocks
09-08-2006, 11:58 AM
Fenway, did you read "Feeding the Monster"? If so, what did you think of it?

I'm a Chicagoan and lifelong White Sox fan, so I know only what I read about the Red Sox and their fans, but I enjoyed the book and felt it explained, a bit, the oddities of that ballclub and its current management.

Fenway
09-08-2006, 12:04 PM
Fenway, did you read "Feeding the Monster"? If so, what did you think of it?

I'm a Chicagoan and lifelong White Sox fan, so I know only what I read about the Red Sox and their fans, but I enjoyed the book and felt it explained, a bit, the oddities of that ballclub and its current management.

It was a good read and I think it shows how the Red Sox have become much more than a baseball club and that frankly scares me.

It was bonechilling to read that Tom Werner was booked on AA Flight 11 on 9/11 but his meeting ended early and he was able to go to New York that night instead of flying out of Boston that Tuesday morning......:o:

Fenway
09-08-2006, 12:53 PM
I think kenny almost has to give the bulk of this team one more shot and hope the pitching comes back to 05 form- cept for the obvious tinkering- freddy gone- what is the shelf life on a WS title for a team and town that had an 88 year drought?

About one more year , I think. Sure hope Theo took advantage of being big man on campus while he could cuz he is in a precarious position with red sox fans demanding his head.

KW has one major advantage that Theo doesn't have, he only has to worry about the Yankees 6 times a season and possibly in October.

I understand nobody wants to hear Boston crying about the Yankees money but it is a reality and it will get much worse when the new Stadium opens.

What is killing Theo in Boston right now is he didn't do ANYTHING at the deadline and the Yankees did and they blew right by Boston. Boston wouldn't trade their untouchables and now one has a dead arm and another is in the fight of his life. Suddenly the future looks very uncertain in Boston and the Blue Jays say they will spend more next year.

Tekijawa
09-08-2006, 01:18 PM
KW has one major advantage that Theo doesn't have, he only has to worry about the Yankees 6 times a season and possibly in October.

It is a different situation, but I hope Kenny is paying attention to this! The Six have taken some Major steps forward in this town, but he has to keep in mind that the Media here won't be as forgiving as the Boston Media was. Theo may have the Yankees to deal with but they Yankees don't own any Boston News Papers, Radio Stations, or Television Stations... If the Six don't make it this season you'll see reporters from Cubs Propaganda Daily writing all kinds of articles about the down fall, if we don't make it this may become the offseason that Hangar was dreaming of, when there are 3 times as many Sox articles written as Cubs articles... What was that? Worst record in the NL, who cares... Look over on the South side they couldn't even make the playoffs this year! Last year was a fluke! Etc... Etc...

DaleJRFan
09-08-2006, 01:20 PM
It is a different situation, but I hope Kenny is paying attention to this! The Six have taken some Major steps forward in this town, but he has to keep in mind that the Media here won't be as forgiving as the Boston Media was. Theo may have the Yankees to deal with but they Yankees don't own any Boston News Papers, Radio Stations, or Television Stations... If the Six don't make it this season you'll see reporters from Cubs Propaganda Daily writing all kinds of articles about the down fall, if we don't make it this may become the offseason that Hangar was dreaming of, when there are 3 times as many Sox articles written as Cubs articles... What was that? Worst record in the NL, who cares... Look over on the South side they couldn't even make the playoffs this year! Last year was a fluke! Etc... Etc...

by Six you mean Sox, right?

Tekijawa
09-08-2006, 01:24 PM
by Six you mean Sox, right?

No I meant six, but thanks for the correction... I'm sure no one would have understood with out your help...

nodiggity59
09-08-2006, 01:32 PM
I give Epstein 0 credit for Papi, just as I give KW 0 credit for Jenks. It's a simple idea: sign a large man for nothing and hope it works out. Every team in the league does it and Epstein and KW have pure luck to thank for their guys turning out.

chaerulez
09-08-2006, 01:36 PM
Theo may have committed one of the worst trades in MLB history.

He got:
Josh Beckett 14-10 5.11 ERA 1.31 WHIP
Mota and top 3B prospect Andy Marte was then traded to the Indians for Coco Crisp (who is a good player) for Riske (now with us) and Josh Bard. Bard was then traded to the Padres to get back Doug Mirabelli (who is just awful, his only purpose is to catch Wakefield because for some reason Varitek can't catch knucklers). Bard is hitting .319 this season and would've probably a nice fill in when Varitek got hurt and then there would've been no need to get Javy Lopez.
Mike Lowell .286 17 HR 67 RBI probably the only good part of the deal for the Red Sox.

And Theo gave up:
Anibal Sanchez 7-2 2.89 ERA 1.19 WHIP
Hanley Ramirez .281 13 HR 49 RBI 105 R 44 SB

I'd say Theo hasn't done so well this year.

Fenway
09-08-2006, 02:04 PM
Theo may have committed one of the worst trades in MLB history.

He got:
Josh Beckett 14-10 5.11 ERA 1.31 WHIP
Mota and top 3B prospect Andy Marte was then traded to the Indians for Coco Crisp (who is a good player) for Riske (now with us) and Josh Bard. Bard was then traded to the Padres to get back Doug Mirabelli (who is just awful, his only purpose is to catch Wakefield because for some reason Varitek can't catch knucklers). Bard is hitting .319 this season and would've probably a nice fill in when Varitek got hurt and then there would've been no need to get Javy Lopez.
Mike Lowell .286 17 HR 67 RBI probably the only good part of the deal for the Red Sox.

And Theo gave up:
Anibal Sanchez 7-2 2.89 ERA 1.19 WHIP
Hanley Ramirez .281 13 HR 49 RBI 105 R 44 SB

I'd say Theo hasn't done so well this year.

Well.......we don't no for sure how much imput Theo had on the Beckett deal as that was when he was down in South America with Pearl Jam on his vacation...there are rumors he was against the deal but hell he then gave Beckett 3 more years.

Clement was finished in Boston after Game 1 of the ALCS last year but they couldn't move him and they stuck with him. Maybe the Cubs will take him back.

Theo has been in hiding most of this season. He used to have a daily show on WEEI in the pregame but he stopped it this year. Wonder why?

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 02:25 PM
Theo may have committed one of the worst trades in MLB history.

He got:
Josh Beckett 14-10 5.11 ERA 1.31 WHIP
Mota and top 3B prospect Andy Marte was then traded to the Indians for Coco Crisp (who is a good player) for Riske (now with us) and Josh Bard. Bard was then traded to the Padres to get back Doug Mirabelli (who is just awful, his only purpose is to catch Wakefield because for some reason Varitek can't catch knucklers). Bard is hitting .319 this season and would've probably a nice fill in when Varitek got hurt and then there would've been no need to get Javy Lopez.
Mike Lowell .286 17 HR 67 RBI probably the only good part of the deal for the Red Sox.

And Theo gave up:
Anibal Sanchez 7-2 2.89 ERA 1.19 WHIP
Hanley Ramirez .281 13 HR 49 RBI 105 R 44 SB

I'd say Theo hasn't done so well this year.


From everything I've read, the Beckett deal (original one, not the extension) was more of Lajoie's (former Red Sox GM) doing...

All things considered, KW's Vazquez trade, while not a winner right now (and probably a loser if you define it by not making the playoffs), might pay off next year. We can be pretty sure the White Sox would be in NO BETTER position to win this season with El Duque. Of course, you can argue that Chris Young was ready to play CF or could have stepped in at mid-season to replace BA, but we can't be 100% sure of that either, as he was coming off a Spring Training injury and he was called up after Carlos Quentin...so the D-Backs didn't consider him their most "MLB-ready" outfielder either.

Young, Lumsden and Gonzalez might all become All-Star and KW will have to live with that...but it's a lot better than seeing Sanchez throw a no-hitter and Ramirez win ROY. And that's just one trade...the K. Meredith one has been even more of a disaster. It's not as if a young reliever we dealt (like Frank Fransico) is morphing into the savior of another team. Jason Grilli or Matt Guerrier are the best of those guys, unless you want to include Majewski and Rauch.

drewcifer
09-08-2006, 02:42 PM
No I meant six, but thanks for the correction... I'm sure no one would have understood with out your help...
Well, I had no idea why you wrote it twice either.

And are you seriously suggesting that KW better pay attention to... I guess you're saying Theo's situation..... for fear of a worse reprisal from the Chicago media than he is getting in Boston????

Wow.

I sincerely hope that is the LAST damn thing on his mind.

drewcifer
09-08-2006, 02:55 PM
Theo may have committed one of the worst trades in MLB history.

He got:
Josh Beckett 14-10 5.11 ERA 1.31 WHIP
Mota and top 3B prospect Andy Marte was then traded to the Indians for Coco Crisp (who is a good player) for Riske (now with us) and Josh Bard. Bard was then traded to the Padres to get back Doug Mirabelli (who is just awful, his only purpose is to catch Wakefield because for some reason Varitek can't catch knucklers). Bard is hitting .319 this season and would've probably a nice fill in when Varitek got hurt and then there would've been no need to get Javy Lopez.
Mike Lowell .286 17 HR 67 RBI probably the only good part of the deal for the Red Sox.

And Theo gave up:
Anibal Sanchez 7-2 2.89 ERA 1.19 WHIP
Hanley Ramirez .281 13 HR 49 RBI 105 R 44 SB

I'd say Theo hasn't done so well this year.

Freddie Sanchez, Bronson Arroyo, Wily Mo Pena, Brad Halsey, Joaquin Arias, Dionner Navarro, Yhency Brazleton, Juan Rivera... There are ALOT of bad moves he's made.

Fenway
09-08-2006, 03:20 PM
Freddie Sanchez, There are ALOT of bad moves he's made.


I dunno Sanchez for Jeff Suppan kinda worked out. After all Suppan was picked off third base in the World Series by David Ortiz :smile:

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/_photos/2004-10-27-suppan-ins.jpg

seriously though the more you look at Theo's moves it REALLY looks bad overall

1951Campbell
09-08-2006, 04:43 PM
Theo's moves are average at best, and everytime he contemplates how wonderful it is to make that kind of money, he should send Dan Duquette a thank-you note.

chaerulez
09-08-2006, 05:35 PM
From everything I've read, the Beckett deal (original one, not the extension) was more of Lajoie's (former Red Sox GM) doing...

All things considered, KW's Vazquez trade, while not a winner right now (and probably a loser if you define it by not making the playoffs), might pay off next year. We can be pretty sure the White Sox would be in NO BETTER position to win this season with El Duque. Of course, you can argue that Chris Young was ready to play CF or could have stepped in at mid-season to replace BA, but we can't be 100% sure of that either, as he was coming off a Spring Training injury and he was called up after Carlos Quentin...so the D-Backs didn't consider him their most "MLB-ready" outfielder either.

Young, Lumsden and Gonzalez might all become All-Star and KW will have to live with that...but it's a lot better than seeing Sanchez throw a no-hitter and Ramirez win ROY. And that's just one trade...the K. Meredith one has been even more of a disaster. It's not as if a young reliever we dealt (like Frank Fransico) is morphing into the savior of another team. Jason Grilli or Matt Guerrier are the best of those guys, unless you want to include Majewski and Rauch.

Out of Young, Lumsden, and Gonzalez only Lumsden becoming real good hurts the Sox. Despite Vazquez being bad most of the year, our OF was a crowded picture and someone had to go, and like you said what is El Duque's ERA? Over 5? And dealing Gonzalez meant getting Thome, and without Thome the Sox could be barely over .500. Lumsden becoming good means we traded away a starter for a guy who is going to be our set up man at best (unless something happens to Jenks) and to a division rival (even though we really do have no reason to believe the Royals will be contenders anytime soon).

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 07:29 PM
Yeah, I think there were plenty of concerns about Gio because of his frame...not Juan Cruz-like, but he's a candidate to break down.

With Lumsden, he was the third lefty we traded (not counting Phillips and Malone as prospects) and he might have been doubly important with the possibility of Buehrle going south or not staying long-term/not being renewed.

Plus, power lefties are not easy to come by.

Not to mention we're going to see him 3-4 times per season in our division, as mentioned.

Fenway
09-09-2006, 10:50 AM
Theo has done most of his dealing with the National League and you have to wonder if players that couldn't cut it in Boston simply do better in the weker NL

I was worried about the Coco Crisp deal from Day 1. I couldn't figure out why Cleveland would be willing to trade Crisp when at the time they had nobody to replace him with on hand. Also nobody in Boston knew that Coco had a worse throwing arm than Damon.

My guess is right now Theo will off Zito untold riches to come to Boston and prevent him from going to New York, at least that will be a starting point.

jabrch
09-09-2006, 05:48 PM
KW has one major advantage that Theo doesn't have, he only has to worry about the Yankees 6 times a season and possibly in October.


I'd have rather had NYY and TOR this year in my division than MIN and DET.