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Lip Man 1
09-08-2006, 12:37 AM
Normally I don't start or participate in these type threads but more and more over the past few weeks I've tried to put myself in Kenny Williams' shoes. To wonder how he's feeling (he's been very, very quiet the past month or so hasn't he?) and what he's thinking.

So I decided to propose a thread for discussion.

WHICH players will he attempt to, or consider trading / releasing / waiving this off season.

Now keep in mind this doesn't mean he is going to trade or let go everyone of the guys I suggest. As Hal (I think) stated, 'you can't trade players if you don't have replacements at least as good as the guys you are letting go.' And he's right.

But here's my list of the guys that I think Kenny will be "trying" to move in various scenarios or will wind up letting go. These are guys currently on the big league roster right now:

Neal Cotts
Freddy Garcia
Dustin Hermanson
Javier Vazquez
Sandy Alomar Jr.
Alex Cintron
Ross Gload
Tadahito Iguchi
Juan Uribe
Scott Posednik
Rob Mackowiak

If asked on a specific player I'll be happy to tell you why I think they are possible trade bait.

Lip

zmz723
09-08-2006, 12:39 AM
I agree with everyone on that list except for tadahito

JB98
09-08-2006, 12:43 AM
No way I'd think about getting rid of Iguchi. Any second baseman who is better than Tadahito isn't available in a trade.

Garcia, Vazquez, Uribe, Pods and Cotts are five players likely to be on the move.

I'd like to see Mackowiak, Gload and Cintron all retained. This is a good bench.

Alomar is going to retire. Hermanson will be just let go for health reasons.

Lip Man 1
09-08-2006, 12:46 AM
ZMZ:

The reason I thought Iguchi could be considered is because with Cintron the Sox do have a capable replacement.

Tad is now in his 30's, he's had an ankle issue this year (that wasn't publicized very much) and to me a telling comment by Ozzie started me thinking he may have soured on him.

You remember last week Ozzie put the onus on the 'top two and bottom two hitters' in the lineup for the club's struggles.
Well Tadahito hits second doesn't he? Tadahito hasn't done the things he was doing in 05 (i.e. 'Ozzie-Ball') and Ozzie has already stated repeatedly about his desire to get back to that in 2006. Ozzie also tried to move him down in the order in the spring and it didn't work (which may also have soured Ozzie on him...I don't know)

I think he's a longer shot to go then the other names on the list but it wouldn't completely shock me if he was dealt / let go.

Lip

Sox35th
09-08-2006, 12:46 AM
Freddy Garcia is at the top of my list.........he needs to go!!

JB98
09-08-2006, 12:49 AM
ZMZ:

The reason I thought Iguchi could be considered is because with Cintron the Sox do have a capable replacement.

Tad is now in his 30's, he's has an ankle issue this year (that wasn't publicized very much) and to me a telling comment by Ozzie started me thinking he may have soured on him.

You remember last week Ozzie put the onus on the 'top two and bottom two hitters' in the lineup for the club's struggles.
Well Tadahito hits second doesn't he? Tadahito hasn't done the things he was doing in 05 (i.e. 'Ozzie-Ball') and Ozzie has already stated repeatedly about his desire to get back to that in 2006. Ozzie also tried to move him down in the order in the spring and it didn't work (which may also have soured Ozzie on him...I don't know)

I think he's a longer shot to go then the other names on the list but it wouldn't completely shock me if he was dealt / let go.

Lip

Ozzie made a mistake telling Iguchi that he wanted him to drive in more runs. We would have been better off if Tadahito had stuck with the same approach he had last year. Of course, part of the problem is Podsednik hasn't been getting on base with any regularity since the All-Star break.

Lip Man 1
09-08-2006, 12:51 AM
JB:

The reason I suggested Mac is twofold.

First he's a pretty good player and may be able to bring back something in an area of need for the Sox. (Remember Sweeney may turn out to be a capable replacement...I don't know.)

Second, the fact that Mac is from this area may be hurting him. Some guys just can't take the additional pressure that comes from playing with the 'home town' club. I remember Donn Pall telling me in his interview that he's known a number of guys who didn't want to play in their hometown. Also when I was in Chicago in May I asked Rich King about this during the Sunday game with the Royals. Rich definitely thought playing in Chicago was an issue for him.

Lip

JB98
09-08-2006, 12:55 AM
JB:

The reason I suggested Mac is twofold.

First he's a pretty good player and may be able to bring back something in an area of need for the Sox. (Remember Sweeney may turn out to be a capable replacement...I don't know.)

Second, the fact that Mac is from this area may be hurting him. Some guys just can't take the additional pressure that comes from playing with the 'home town' club. I remember Donn Pall telling me in his interview that he's known a number of guys who didn't want to play in their hometown. Also when I was in Chicago in May I asked Rich King about this during the Sunday game with the Royals. Rich definitely thought playing in Chicago was an issue for him.

Lip

Mack is hitting 26 points higher than his career batting average this year. Of course, he is on pace to have FAR fewer at-bats this season than he had in previous years at Pittsburgh. If he's feeling the additional pressure, I don't think it has been reflected in his performance.

Lip Man 1
09-08-2006, 12:57 AM
JB:

Just wondering...

Are your also referring to his 'outfield' performance?

Lip

kobo
09-08-2006, 12:59 AM
Neal Cotts
Freddy Garcia
Dustin Hermanson
Javier Vazquez
Sandy Alomar Jr.
Alex Cintron
Ross Gload
Tadahito Iguchi
Juan Uribe
Scott Posednik
Rob Mackowiak


I think Cotts, Garcia, Uribe, and Pods will all be gone after this season. Alomar will retire, Hermanson will either retire or the Sox will release him. They could use Rob, Gload, Cintron, and Vazquez as trade bait, but I would hate to see Gload and Cintron go. Cintron more than Gload. I agree with you that Gooch could be gone as well, but if that happens they need to get a 2B or SS in return. Vazquez will be the one who I think will be the hardest to move, considering his salary and his performance this year. I don't like thinking about this now either, but I know I have said for about a month now that I expect the first 4 guys I named to be gone after this season.

JB98
09-08-2006, 01:00 AM
JB:

Just wondering...

Are your also referring to his 'outfield' performance?

Lip

Mack isn't even an outfielder by trade. His misadventures in CF are just as much the fault of KW and Ozzie. KW did not give Ozzie a suitable alternative in the event that Anderson faltered, which he has. And despite overwhelming evidence that Mack is not a CF, Ozzie continues to run him out there, setting him up to fail.

Martinigirl
09-08-2006, 01:00 AM
If Ozzie has any imput, there is no way they trade Mack. Ozzie obviously loves him.

And according to your list, we won't have any second basemen or shortstops, so I don't think that is right. If the trade Uribe, they won't trade Iguchi, and vice versa. It would be too hard to replace both.

Also, I can't see them giving up Gload unless they get something they really want/need in return.

The rest of the list I agree with.

Lip Man 1
09-08-2006, 01:02 AM
Martini:

If Tadahito is dealt, obviously Cintron remains or vice versa. Like I said at the start my list does not mean ALL of those guys are leaving. I was speculating on the one's that Kenny may try to move in various scenarios.

JB:

Then I guess you'll be happy to know that according to Mark Gonzales' wrap up of the 'game' Thursday, Ozzie has stated Mac starts at 3rd base Friday night.

Lip

StillMissOzzie
09-08-2006, 01:04 AM
No way I'd think about getting rid of Iguchi. Any second baseman who is better than Tadahito isn't available in a trade.

Garcia, Vazquez, Uribe, Pods and Cotts are five players likely to be on the move.

I'd like to see Mackowiak, Gload and Cintron all retained. This is a good bench.

Alomar is going to retire. Hermanson will be just let go for health reasons.

Now YOU I agree with. At this point, I think all five of your "likely" list should be prepared to pack their bags. Mackowiak, Gload, & Cintron are all good bench players, but Mack has been mis-used in CF way too often. And Gload, a decent enough left handed bat, has done pretty much everything asked of him and he's still dirt cheap. And finally, it would surprise not at all to learn Alomar is ready to retire. Hermanson, on the radio Tuesday, thinks he just might be over the hump and hopes for another year or two now. However, IIRC, the Sox have an option on Hermie and I expect them to decline it. Maybe the Sox will pay the buyout, if any, and try to negotiate an incentive-based deal, but it wouldn't surprise me if he were gone, too.

SMO
:gulp:

0o0o0
09-08-2006, 01:05 AM
No way I'd think about getting rid of Iguchi. Any second baseman who is better than Tadahito isn't available in a trade.

Garcia, Vazquez, Uribe, Pods and Cotts are five players likely to be on the move.

I'd like to see Mackowiak, Gload and Cintron all retained. This is a good bench.

Alomar is going to retire. Hermanson will be just let go for health reasons.

I agree with all of this.

kobo
09-08-2006, 01:05 AM
Then I guess you'll be happy to know that according to Mark Gonzales' wrap up of the 'game' Thursday, Ozzie has stated Mac starts at 3rd base Friday night.

Lip
Is this his first start at 3rd this season? If so, nice time to have Ozzie start him. I mean, it's not like they are in a pennant race or anything.

JB98
09-08-2006, 01:06 AM
Martini:

If Tadahito is dealt, obviously Cintron remains or vice versa. Like I said at the start my list does not mean ALL of those guys are leaving. I was speculating on the one's that Kenny may try to move in various scenarios.

JB:

Then I guess you'll be happy to know that according to Mark Gonzales' wrap up of the 'game' Thursday, Ozzie has stated Mac starts at 3rd base Friday night.

Lip

Actually, my reaction is, why the hell isn't Crede playing? If he can walk, he needs to be out there. It isn't a "long season" anymore. It's a 22-game sprint to the finish.

kobo
09-08-2006, 01:08 AM
Actually, my reaction is, why the hell isn't Crede playing?
The doctor says he needs a backiotomy.

TheOldRoman
09-08-2006, 01:21 AM
Vazquez isn't going anywhere. He has looked better for us than the first year of Contreras (July 04-June 05), and he is in a similar situation. It may be taking a little longer than hoped, but Javy will turn it around, and KW knows it. Also, Kenny would be buying high and selling low, and he doesn't usually do that.

I also think that Cintron and Mackowiak aren't going anywhere. They are very valuable backups, but they aren't particularly good as starters. They have more value to the Sox than they can get in a trade. Hell, we got them both for ****ty relievers. What would we even get for them? It is ridiculous to include Iguchi on the list. He isn't going anywhere, at least for another year.

As for the rest of them, they might be gone. I would like to see Gload stay, but if the bench stays the same, he might leave in favor of a backup outfielder who can play all three spots (Brady Clark). Pretty much everyone short of Dye, Crede, and Jenks has drastically underachieved for an extended period of time, and this team has no heart. KW has a lot of moves ahead of him this offseason (whether or not the Sox make the playoffs).

goon
09-08-2006, 01:27 AM
ZMZ:

The reason I thought Iguchi could be considered is because with Cintron the Sox do have a capable replacement.

Tad is now in his 30's, he's had an ankle issue this year (that wasn't publicized very much) and to me a telling comment by Ozzie started me thinking he may have soured on him.

You remember last week Ozzie put the onus on the 'top two and bottom two hitters' in the lineup for the club's struggles.
Well Tadahito hits second doesn't he? Tadahito hasn't done the things he was doing in 05 (i.e. 'Ozzie-Ball') and Ozzie has already stated repeatedly about his desire to get back to that in 2006. Ozzie also tried to move him down in the order in the spring and it didn't work (which may also have soured Ozzie on him...I don't know)


Lip


i believe iguchi struggles at the plate have occured because our leadoff hitter has not been getting on base. it must be difficult coming up in nearly every AB with one out. also, tadahito's ankle wasn't and isn't a chronic problem he's had over the years, or as far as i know anyway... he just rolled it and it ended up getting sprained.

i'd like to see iguchi back next year and this time in the leadoff spot.

AND i think bringing javier back would be a good move by williams, unless of course he can get something worthwhile in a trade. javier's stuff has been great this year, just had some silly mental lapses, which he has shown signs of rectifying.

TheLittleBulldog
09-08-2006, 01:44 AM
ZMZ:

The reason I thought Iguchi could be considered is because with Cintron the Sox do have a capable replacement.

Tad is now in his 30's, he's had an ankle issue this year (that wasn't publicized very much) and to me a telling comment by Ozzie started me thinking he may have soured on him.

You remember last week Ozzie put the onus on the 'top two and bottom two hitters' in the lineup for the club's struggles.
Well Tadahito hits second doesn't he? Tadahito hasn't done the things he was doing in 05 (i.e. 'Ozzie-Ball') and Ozzie has already stated repeatedly about his desire to get back to that in 2006. Ozzie also tried to move him down in the order in the spring and it didn't work (which may also have soured Ozzie on him...I don't know)

I think he's a longer shot to go then the other names on the list but it wouldn't completely shock me if he was dealt / let go.

Lip

Cintron's On-base-percentage is .318. He simply is not good enough offensively to be an everyday player.

Sox-o-matic
09-08-2006, 02:00 AM
ZMZ:

The reason I thought Iguchi could be considered is because with Cintron the Sox do have a capable replacement.

Tad is now in his 30's, he's had an ankle issue this year (that wasn't publicized very much) and to me a telling comment by Ozzie started me thinking he may have soured on him.

You remember last week Ozzie put the onus on the 'top two and bottom two hitters' in the lineup for the club's struggles.
Well Tadahito hits second doesn't he? Tadahito hasn't done the things he was doing in 05 (i.e. 'Ozzie-Ball') and Ozzie has already stated repeatedly about his desire to get back to that in 2006. Ozzie also tried to move him down in the order in the spring and it didn't work (which may also have soured Ozzie on him...I don't know)

I think he's a longer shot to go then the other names on the list but it wouldn't completely shock me if he was dealt / let go.

Lip

Iguchi can't play 'small ball' when the guy in front of him hasn't been worth a damn for pretty much the entire season. Also, up until very recently Thome has been in the three hole. Iguchi also has no buisness bunting a runner over or trying to advance a runner with a groundout when the guy behind him forces station to station baseball.

IMO, the offensive approach and the general character of the team has changed drastically from 'Ozzieball' to station to station baseball over the course of one season because of two simple factors. One is Podsednik has been craptastic and the other is Jim Thome in the three hole. Everyone else has equaled or exceeded their production in 2005, except for Anderson who replaced the offensive cricket Aaron Rowand.

Now I'm certainly not saying Thome doesn't help this club immensely because he does, but the decision to put him in the spot he has been in all year was Ozzie's. Also, Podsednik's sucky play is also on Ozzie's hands. He could have started Pablo more, he could have pined for a trade, or he could have even asked to bring up Owens from AAA. At the time, I think Ozzie made the right choice in letting Pods play through his issues and regain his confidence, but the whole point is if Ozzie is going to point fingers at anyone it should be himself frst and foremost.

Also, yes Ozzie wanted to move Uribe into the 2 spot and bat Tadahito lower, but Jesus Christ if he had done that we would have had the ****tiest 1-2 punch in all of baseball. If it hadn't been for Tadahito's poor ST we probably would have started off a lot worse.

Personally I hope Tadahito is one of the first guys to be signed to an extension because he is a winner, a solid player, and there is NO WAY IN HELL this team would have ever won the World Series with Willie Harris starting at second base.

HerzogVon
09-08-2006, 08:19 AM
The way Buehrle has struggled, I would hate to see them give up on Vasquez right now. With Freddie almost certain to go, what if Mark isn't able to stay in the rotation? They won't get rid of him, that's for sure.

soxfanatlanta
09-08-2006, 08:36 AM
Lip

Iguchi has stated several times that he would like to bat lower in the lineup so he has the opportunity to drive in runs, and I believe that Ozzie wanted to give him that chance in the spring. But Uribe batting second was never going to work; this guy never met a pitch he did not like. (think Dell Curry). At his salary and abilities, Iguchi-san is a good value, and I cannot see him being moved elsewhere.

If they released Garcia today, I would not shed a single tear.

However, we should not speak of this, no matter how pessimistic/realistic we are. Despite our downright putrid performance, we are still 1/2 back from a struggling Twins.

The Immigrant
09-08-2006, 08:45 AM
Vazquez is going nowhere. He's shown too much promise for KW to give up on him, plus his trade value is nowhere near optimal at this point.

In my opinion, Uribe and Cotts are most likely to be moved. Don't be surprised if Crede's name comes up in trade rumors as well.

Podsednik is a tougher call for me, although the fact that he's not playing in September makes it unlikely he'll be offered arbitration.

jenn2080
09-08-2006, 08:53 AM
I think they will end up keeping Rob. He may suck in center but he is still a good bench player.

Freddy, Uribe, Cotts, Burls, Alomar, and Pods I think will all be gone.

Lillian
09-08-2006, 09:11 AM
This team needs speed, and Ozzie has said as much. There isn't going to be any serious speed at any position on this team, with the current 40 man roster. The coming replacements, like Sweeney and Fields are not real base stealing threats. Fields has has a good stolen base success rate this season, but I doubt that he would really be that good in the Big Leagues. Ozzie has said he'd like Brian to work on base stealing, but he lacks the speed to ever really be a big threat. I doubt Pods will be in left next year, and Owens is not ready, nor is there a place for him with Sweeney and Fields ahead of him on the depth chart.
The best positions for this team to find two base stealing threats would be the middle infielders. If they could find a new short stop and second baseman, who could both run, and steal bases, play defense, and turn the double play, I wouldn't care if they hit much. This team is a power Juggernaut of sluggers. It doesn't need the 15 to 20 homers from each of the middle infielders, that we get from the current duo. We would be much better off with two guys, with higher on base percentage, and base stealing prowess.
Oh, for the good old days of Aparicio, and Fox! Actually, Nellie wasn't really much of a base stealer, but he was still the best number two hitter I can remember, in a Sox uniform. I doubt that there are two players out there, who could fill their shoes, and the needs of this team. But that is the ideal, for which I would wish to see, in order to satisfy my "need for speed".

Fake Chet Lemon
09-08-2006, 09:46 AM
Just get some veteran leadership Kenny, whatever you do.

AJ is the only leader in the lock-room, that's it. All those years Kenny traded for Roberto Alomar and Carl Everett because of their important "veteran leadership." If it was so important then, why not now?????? Is there a veteran Left Fielder out there who has a rep as a leader?

daveeym
09-08-2006, 09:49 AM
No way I'd think about getting rid of Iguchi. Any second baseman who is better than Tadahito isn't available in a trade.

Garcia, Vazquez, Uribe, Pods and Cotts are five players likely to be on the move.

I'd like to see Mackowiak, Gload and Cintron all retained. This is a good bench.

Alomar is going to retire. Hermanson will be just let go for health reasons. Bingo, I couldn't have said it better myself.

daveeym
09-08-2006, 10:01 AM
This team needs speed, and Ozzie has said as much. There isn't going to be any serious speed at any position on this team, with the current 40 man roster. The coming replacements, like Sweeney and Fields are not real base stealing threats. Fields has has a good stolen base success rate this season, but I doubt that he would really be that good in the Big Leagues. Ozzie has said he'd like Brian to work on base stealing, but he lacks the speed to ever really be a big threat. I doubt Pods will be in left next year, and Owens is not ready, nor is there a place for him with Sweeney and Fields ahead of him on the depth chart.
The best positions for this team to find two base stealing threats would be the middle infielders. If they could find a new short stop and second baseman, who could both run, and steal bases, play defense, and turn the double play, I wouldn't care if they hit much. This team is a power Juggernaut of sluggers. It doesn't need the 15 to 20 homers from each of the middle infielders, that we get from the current duo. We would be much better off with two guys, with higher on base percentage, and base stealing prowess.
Oh, for the good old days of Aparicio, and Fox! Actually, Nellie wasn't really much of a base stealer, but he was still the best number two hitter I can remember, in a Sox uniform. I doubt that there are two players out there, who could fill their shoes, and the needs of this team. But that is the ideal, for which I would wish to see, in order to satisfy my "need for speed". They don't necessarily need every one with speed to be base stealers, they need guys that can go from 1st to home on a double without it being a circus everytime. You have thome, crede, paulie, and the catcher spot that can't do this. Combine this with the guys that can do it but can't get on base and you've got no team speed.

BanditJimmy
09-08-2006, 10:02 AM
At the salary the Sox are paying Cotts, there is no reason to get rid of him yet.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 10:15 AM
I would much prefer retaining Vazquez to Garcia. Vazquez has made some progress recently and at least has the "stuff" to work through things, unlike Garcia, whose odds of giving up 3 runs or less in a game go up exponentially with each outing.

Obviously, we have to find a leadoff hitter from LF, SS or 2B. Of those positions, Tadahito is the one most suited for this team and he at least has the abilities to play small ball, unlike Uribe. And Juan has regressed some defensively (last night, for instance).

I want no part of Cintron as a starting 2B. I do like all of the bench players, but none of them should be playing in more than 1/3rd of the games IMO.

Alomar and Hermanson will be gone.

I also don't see a Buehrle trade taking place. Not yet at least. They will give him another half year to work things out.

Ideally, Sweeney would be starting in RF, but I think he'll be fine in LF next year. It's a big risk, but one we can take if we find a leadoff hitter at SS or 2B. I don't like Tad as leadoff hitter...too many K's. Same with BA.

Our most marketable players are Crede, Dye (because of his salary) and Konerko. We need to keep Thome for the LH power bat, and his salary is definitely fair due to the money we're getting from Philly. I also think you need Dye's power to balance whatever offensive deficits result from Sweeney and Anderson in the OF.

This leaves Crede and Konerko, and, to a lesser extent, Buehrle and Dye. Three of those players are going into either their final contract year or are negotiating (in the case of Crede) for long-term deals. Just like we did last year, when KW pushed Contreras and Jon to sign deals or be traded, KW will figure out what he needs to do based on the negotiations with those three key players. Will Buerhle sign long-term for lower money, or risk not getting paid (see Mulder) due to injury or non-performance NEXT year? Can KW work out a fair deal w/ Jermaine for playing for far less than market value for two seasons? What do Crede and Boras want to do?

We have a decent "base" of players in Sweeney, McCarthy, Fields, Broadway and Owens (will be a fourth OF and pinch-runner, but I can't be 100% certain because he's not much better in CF) to fill in depending on what is done. Trade Konerko, and we can put Fields at 1B, or Gload in combo.

We're not going to offer Pods arbitration. He gone.

Essentially we're left with trading Garcia, Uribe and Konerko to get a pitcher and another position player.

I don't want to just dump Cotts at this point either, makes no sense. I prefer to see how he comes back next Spring. And we always have Logan who's looked like he belongs now.

Lots of different scenarios...Dave Roberts/Crawford/Pierre for LF OR Sweeney for LF, A-Rod, Tejada, Ichiro. It will be interesting, to say the least. And BA still is a question mark to me, simply based on Ozzie's comments. If BA isn't the CF, it can't be Sweeney or Owens. Tough to make that decision based on Winter Ball or ST though.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 10:19 AM
They don't necessarily need every one with speed to be base stealers, they need guys that can go from 1st to home on a double without it being a circus everytime. You have thome, crede, paulie, and the catcher spot that can't do this. Combine this with the guys that can do it but can't get on base and you've got no team speed.

Which is ironic because we have essentially the same team back from last year, one that was near the top (along with Angels and D-Rays) in stolen bases much of last season. Willie Harris was always more of a theoretical threat than an actual one.

50% of our dropoff is related to Pods. After that, you have Ozuna, who's not a regular. Same with Mackowiak, Gload is fast compared to our starters even.

Which leaves Iguchi, Uribe, Dye and Anderson/Sweeney as SB threats. And none of them are going to get more than 15 steals.

The other problem is Owens, he's more of a 4th outfielder and PR than a starter to replace Pods. We'll see I guess. But he's still raw as a basestealer, and I don't imagine his success rate would be much higher than that of Pods this year.

Malgar 12
09-08-2006, 10:29 AM
he is a winner, a solid player, and there is NO WAY IN HELL this team would have ever won the World Series with Willie Harris starting at second base.

Amen Brother! Amen.

Flight #24
09-08-2006, 10:36 AM
Just IMO, but I think Kenny's focus will be in a couple of key areas:

1) Pitching pitching pitching. He knows the importance of it, and that's obviously a big area where they've struggled. So while I think he'll trade one of Garcia/Vazquez (most likely Freddy although I could see Javy if by some chance he brings a higher return), he'll do it to gain pitching back. And McCarthy/Broadway/Haeger aren't going anywhere unless it brings a solid SP in return.

2) Leadoff man. Pods hasn't cut it (again - obviously). And when he's not on base & stealing, he provides negative value to the team because he can't really do anything else. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he tries to find an SS who can lead off, thereby killing 2 birds with one stone.

3) Leadership/"grinder" grit. We've all noticed the lack of focus by the guys, and even with AJ, there aren't a ton of vocal leaders on this squad. That may be the area where an ******* like Everett provided some value - in not being shy to call out guys when they slacked or let their minds wander (I'm look at YOU Uribe!).

All of this and the fact that "Kenny always gets his man" make me think he'll try to get ahold of Omar Vizquel. Not as flashy as Uribe, but a lot steadier. Can match or exceed Podsednik's OBP, so he can lead off or be a perfect #2. And I don't think he'll come too expensively since he'll be in his FA year and the Giants are quite likely to be starting to rebuild.

Then he adds a "gritty" LF guy, possibly one who can platoon with Sweeney/Fields. Could be Dave Roberts - honestly I'm not that familiar with him outside of his speed.

Gone: Garcia, Uribe, Cotts (to the minors), Podsednik

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 10:41 AM
I'm voting for Jimmy Rollins, but I know his OBP isn't much of an improvement on Pods'.

However, he's always seemed like the most stable and most respected of all those Phillies players over the last five years. And he consistently puts up 30 SB's per season. Which means he'll be more difficult to acquire, especially if they somehow manage to make the playoffs.

If Vizquel is #2, who would hit first? Whoever we acquire for LF or Iguchi? And if it's only Vizquel we acquire AND we let Pods go, our team speed is even worse!!!

I've noticed the lack of leadership a lot from Anderson in CF...obviously he's a talented and instinctive player, and maybe his confidence and personality will start to come out, but there's been a ton of balls in CF and behind SS and I never see good communication (maybe it's my perception) from either one of these guys (Uribe or BA). It happened a couple of times in the games I went to in KC (one in particular between Uribe and Ozuna).

ZombieRob
09-08-2006, 10:44 AM
I think the Sox will do one thing for sure and is revamp the pitching staff.I tend to agree with Mike North about Buerhle.I wouldnt be surpised if hes dealt to a national league team .hes probably going to give you the best value in return .Id find it hard to imagine the Sox would pick up his 9 mil option .So i guess we'll stay tuned.

TheOldRoman
09-08-2006, 10:45 AM
Just IMO, but I think Kenny's focus will be in a couple of key areas:

1) Pitching pitching pitching. He knows the importance of it, and that's obviously a big area where they've struggled. So while I think he'll trade one of Garcia/Vazquez (most likely Freddy although I could see Javy if by some chance he brings a higher return), he'll do it to gain pitching back. And McCarthy/Broadway/Haeger aren't going anywhere unless it brings a solid SP in return.

2) Leadoff man. Pods hasn't cut it (again - obviously). And when he's not on base & stealing, he provides negative value to the team because he can't really do anything else. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he tries to find an SS who can lead off, thereby killing 2 birds with one stone.

3) Leadership/"grinder" grit. We've all noticed the lack of focus by the guys, and even with AJ, there aren't a ton of vocal leaders on this squad. That may be the area where an ******* like Everett provided some value - in not being shy to call out guys when they slacked or let their minds wander (I'm look at YOU Uribe!).

All of this and the fact that "Kenny always gets his man" make me think he'll try to get ahold of Omar Vizquel. Not as flashy as Uribe, but a lot steadier. Can match or exceed Podsednik's OBP, so he can lead off or be a perfect #2. And I don't think he'll come too expensively since he'll be in his FA year and the Giants are quite likely to be starting to rebuild.

Then he adds a "gritty" LF guy, possibly one who can platoon with Sweeney/Fields. Could be Dave Roberts - honestly I'm not that familiar with him outside of his speed.

Gone: Garcia, Uribe, Cotts (to the minors), Podsednik Omar Vizquel is signed through 07. Rememeber, that is the reason we didn't get him before 05 - the Giants offered him the third year. The Giants might be willing to trade him, but I doubt it. I think Kenny will try his best to ship Garcia, Uribe, and company to Baltimore for Tejada.

ZombieRob
09-08-2006, 10:51 AM
Omar Vizquel is signed through 07. Rememeber, that is the reason we didn't get him before 05 - the Giants offered him the third year. The Giants might be willing to trade him, but I doubt it. I think Kenny will try his best to ship Garcia, Uribe, and company to Baltimore for Tejada.

Why would they want those 2 for Tejada? Think about it if you were the O's g.m. would you take that offer?

Thome25
09-08-2006, 10:51 AM
Take Iguchi and Cintron off that list.

Qdiddy
09-08-2006, 10:53 AM
I might get beat up for this but I think we all agree that Alomar is gone, but I so want M. Olivo back. I know he wasn't the greatest at calling games but it makes me sick seeing everyone running at will on us. At least he would give us a chance a throwing someone out. Plus, he's fast and I think his bat is starting to come around.

Anyone else think I'm crazy?

ZombieRob
09-08-2006, 10:56 AM
I might get beat up for this but I think we all agree that Alomar is gone, but I so want M. Olivo back. I know he wasn't the greatest at calling games but it makes me sick seeing everyone running at will on us. At least he would give us a chance a throwing someone out. Plus, he's fast and I think his bat is starting to come around.

Anyone else think I'm crazy?

No
i might as even go as far to see if Henry Blanco is availible

Flight #24
09-08-2006, 10:58 AM
Omar Vizquel is signed through 07. Rememeber, that is the reason we didn't get him before 05 - the Giants offered him the third year. The Giants might be willing to trade him, but I doubt it. I think Kenny will try his best to ship Garcia, Uribe, and company to Baltimore for Tejada.

Right, I think KW might try to trade for him in his "out year" - 07. I do agree that Kenny will try to get Tejada, but I don't think he'll be willing to give up what it will take: young pitching, not just Garcia/Uribe.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 10:59 AM
First of all, he's had a good season for the Marlins. So we can't just take him back. Wasn't he released once or twice?

The only thing that MIGHT make sense is Olivo matched with Garcia or Contreras, but Garcia will undoubtedly be gone. And it makes no sense to give up a quality player or prospect for a bench player.

Now if you think we should bench AJ for Olivo, I'm not going to go there. KW got rid of Olivo, and he had a list of very good reasons which I won't waste my time reiterating right now.

ZombieRob
09-08-2006, 11:02 AM
First of all, he's had a good season for the Marlins. So we can't just take him back. Wasn't he released once or twice?

The only thing that MIGHT make sense is Olivo matched with Garcia or Contreras, but Garcia will undoubtedly be gone. And it makes no sense to give up a quality player or prospect for a bench player.

Now if you think we should bench AJ for Olivo, I'm not going to go there. KW got rid of Olivo, and he had a list of very good reasons which I won't waste my time reiterating right now.

I Still say More the Garcia will be gone ..The question really is are the Sox going to pick up Buerhles option and would you considering the year hes having?

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 11:04 AM
Right, I think KW might try to trade for him in his "out year" - 07. I do agree that Kenny will try to get Tejada, but I don't think he'll be willing to give up what it will take: young pitching, not just Garcia/Uribe.

It would take Konerko (or McCarthy) matched with Garcia and Uribe...another version of the C-Lee deal. Basically getting rid of salaries to buy some flexibility with the payroll. We can't get Tejada for just Garcia/Vazquez and Uribe. That's insane, based on other trades for younger prospects (like Santana/Aybar or Oswalt/Everett/Lidge) Angelos shot down.

If we could clear Konerko/Garcia/Uribe from the books, we would be in a MUCH better position. And obviously the O's were interested in Konerko...so there should be a match.

Obviously not a very easy move to make for KW and the front office, but that fans will survive...they would rather have another WS winner than Thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Valentin, Konerko...at least I THINK SO, lol.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-08-2006, 11:05 AM
Actually, my reaction is, why the hell isn't Crede playing? If he can walk, he needs to be out there. It isn't a "long season" anymore. It's a 22-game sprint to the finish.

According to the Cubune, Crede wanted to stay in on Wednesday and play through it but Ozzie pulled him.

TheOldRoman
09-08-2006, 11:07 AM
It would take Konerko (or McCarthy) matched with Garcia and Uribe...another version of the C-Lee deal. Basically getting rid of salaries to buy some flexibility with the payroll. We can't get Tejada for just Garcia/Vazquez and Uribe. That's insane, based on other trades for younger prospects (like Santana/Aybar or Oswalt/Everett/Lidge) Angelos shot down.

If we could clear Konerko/Garcia/Uribe from the books, we would be in a MUCH better position. And obviously the O's were interested in Konerko...so there should be a match.

Obviously not a very easy move to make for KW and the front office, but that fans will survive...they would rather have another WS winner than Thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Valentin, Konerko...at least I THINK SO, lol.
And your starting 1B is Ross Gload?

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 11:08 AM
I Still say More the Garcia will be gone ..The question really is are the Sox going to pick up Buerhles option and would you considering the year hes having?

Buehrle's a good question....do you sneak in and sign him for "under" market value and risk that he might not return to "normal?" Then again, Mark's not a power pitcher, so the odds are much better that he will rebound than, say, Garcia. And he's been one of the best leaders and bulldogs for this team the last five years, along with Konerko.

How many years would you risk signing him? Obviously, no more than 3.

Or do you go out and put together a performance-based/incentives laden contract for someone coming off minor surgery like Mark Mulder, a pitcher with even more upside we could do the old Ellis Burks/Jermaine Dye coming off an injury contract?

No interest in Zito or Schmidt at what they'll be getting...maybe Mussina, if it's around $10 million. But someone will pay him more, probably the Yankees again.

ZombieRob
09-08-2006, 11:08 AM
According to the Cubune, Crede wanted to stay in on Wednesday and play through it but Ozzie pulled him.


A Mi Minara as Ozzie puts it

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 11:10 AM
And your starting 1B is Ross Gload?

No Fields the majority of AB's, with Gload mixed in.

I don't think we can afford Anderson, Sweeney AND Fields simultaneously, but we can do well enough with 2/3 IF we get starting pitching comparable to last year.

Of maybe even a platoon of Sweeney AND Fields. Assuming we get a new LF.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 11:10 AM
A Mi Minara as Ozzie puts it


Minera

ZombieRob
09-08-2006, 11:10 AM
Buehrle's a good question....do you sneak in and sign him for "under" market value and risk that he might not return to "normal?" Then again, Mark's not a power pitcher, so the odds are much better that he will rebound than, say, Garcia. And he's been one of the best leaders and bulldogs for this team the last five years, along with Konerko.

How many years would you risk signing him? Obviously, no more than 3.

Or do you go out and put together a performance-based/incentives laden contract for someone coming off minor surgery like Mark Mulder, a pitcher with even more upside we could do the old Ellis Burks/Jermaine Dye coming off an injury contract?

No interest in Zito or Schmidt at what they'll be getting...maybe Mussina, if it's around $10 million. But someone will pay him more, probably the Yankees again.


If he goes its to the Nation league. Sox will pick up the option so theyd still have rights to him then movie him. Depends also on how Health Phillips develops.

ZombieRob
09-08-2006, 11:11 AM
Minera


Yea his way is what put this team in the toilet.IMHO.

soxfanatlanta
09-08-2006, 11:12 AM
The question really is are the Sox going to pick up Buerhles option and would you considering the year hes having?

Granted MB is having a horrible year, but you gotta pick him up thinking '06 is an anomaly.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 11:14 AM
I'm willing to bet Phillips is much closer to Matt Guerrier or Josh Stewart than a young Mark Buehrle.

I'd prefer to go with Broadway than Haeger or Tracey or Phillips.

And, the Twins are winning with three young/rookie pitchers. Of course, their top two are among the five best in the game. So they have a little more flexibility with "experimentation" than we do, unless you can guarantee 15 win seasons from Garland, Contreras, Vazquez/Buerhle/Garcia.

ZombieRob
09-08-2006, 11:15 AM
Granted MB is having a horrible year, but you gotta pick him up thinking '06 is an anomaly.


I agree with this .That its a tough call to make for K.W ..9 million is a helluva pricey gamble to make.Becuse if hey do pick up the option and Buerhle is bad ,all of us who praised K.W are going to reem him a new one.

ZombieRob
09-08-2006, 11:17 AM
I'm willing to bet Phillips is much closer to Matt Guerrier or Josh Stewart than a young Mark Buehrle.

I'd prefer to go with Broadway than Haeger or Tracey or Phillips.

And, the Twins are winning with three young/rookie pitchers. Of course, their top two are among the five best in the game. So they have a little more flexibility with "experimentation" than we do, unless you can guarantee 15 win seasons from Garland, Contreras, Vazquez/Buerhle/Garcia.

I think Phillips is alot more along then people think.watching a few games with him pitching already right now he has more snap on his pitches then rag arm Buerhle does now.Does that mean hes better ? no .But i do think is upside is pretty high.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 11:17 AM
Yea his way is what put this team in the toilet.IMHO.

Buehrle said it himself...it's all about the starting pitching, they've let the team down and no offense can carry a team on its back the entire season.

Even if we had the Vince Lombardi of baseball managers, he would have a hard time taking the 05 Red Sox or 06 White Sox anywhere in the postseason.

You have to go back to those Yankees teams with loaded line-ups to find a team that had post-season success with a staff well above a 4 point ERA.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 11:19 AM
I think Phillips is alot more along then people think.watching a few games with him pitching already right now he has more snap on his pitches then rag arm Buerhle does now.Does that mean hes better ? no .But i do think is upside is pretty high.

If Phillips threw consistently in the low 90's (like Corwin Malone before his injuries), I would have a lot more confidence.

At 86-89, you have to be exact and precise like a Glavine or Buehrle at his best. Even then, the umpiring can take you out of your game without that outside strike.

ZombieRob
09-08-2006, 11:24 AM
Buehrle said it himself...it's all about the starting pitching, they've let the team down and no offense can carry a team on its back the entire season.

Even if we had the Vince Lombardi of baseball managers, he would have a hard time taking the 05 Red Sox or 06 White Sox anywhere in the postseason.

You have to go back to those Yankees teams with loaded line-ups to find a team that had post-season success with a staff well above a 4 point ERA.

And this is why i compare Ozzie to Ditka Both stubborn to the point of being annoying .With the Bears team he had in 87 he shouldve repeated hands down ,but lost his team somehwere in between.And parts of this year i think Ozzie has done the same with his stubborness.When it comes to the lineups he makes,pitching moves he makes or lack of.picking on Brian Anderson .when you have a team captian that pouts and hangs his head after every pop up.

BanditJimmy
09-08-2006, 11:26 AM
Contreras, Garland, & McCarthy are locks for the rotation next season.


I beleive two starter will be gone from the list of Garcia, Vazquez, Buehrle.

My choice would be Garcia and Buehrle because of their velocity issues this year.


Look for another project type signing as the #5 starter ( similar to what we did when we picked up El Duque, Loaiza, etc). Someone who can be signed for cheap.


I think both Dye and Crede will be signed to long term deals this off season.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 11:27 AM
And this is why i compare Ozzie to Ditka Both stubborn to the point of being annoying .With the Bears team he had in 87 he shouldve repeated hands down ,but lost his team somehwere in between.And parts of this year i think Ozzie has done the same with his stubborness.When it comes to the lineups he makes,pitching moves he makes or lack of.picking on Brian Anderson .when you have a team captian that pouts and hangs his head after every pop up.

I've kind of resigned myself to no playoff baseball (with the recent play and return of Liriano), so I'm just going to stop being upset and hope for the best.

Who knows, the Tigers have two more chances against Garza and Bonser (before Santana Sunday), if they take 3/4. We SHOULD be at least 1/2 game up on the Twins, lol.

Unfortunately, I have more confidence in the reeling Tigers winning 3/4 in the Dome than I do of us winning two or even three against the Indians this weekend. But it's the truth.

Railsplitter
09-08-2006, 11:29 AM
Only trade Pods for speed.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 11:30 AM
Contreras, Garland, & McCarthy are locks for the rotation next season.


I beleive two starter will be gone from the list of Garcia, Vazquez, Buehrle.

My choice would be Garcia and Buehrle because of their velocity issues this year.


Look for another project type signing as the #5 starter ( similar to what we did when we picked up El Duque, Loaiza, etc). Someone who can be signed for cheap.


I think both Dye and Crede will be signed to long term deals this off season.

I don't think Buehrle is all about velocity like Garcia. Maybe it's the back, the same for Jenks' loss in velocity (only a couple of MPH, but it makes a big difference). With Mark, it's more mental. With Freddy, he simply hasn't adjusted well to being a junkballer.

We always have Broadway/Heager/Tracey/Phillips as insurance in case the Gil Heredia/Loiaza type of signing (Mark Mulder?) backfires...

ZombieRob
09-08-2006, 11:31 AM
I've kind of resigned myself to no playoff baseball (with the recent play and return of Liriano), so I'm just going to stop being upset and hope for the best.

Who knows, the Tigers have two more chances against Garza and Bonser (before Santana Sunday), if they take 3/4. We SHOULD be at least 1/2 game up on the Twins, lol.

Unfortunately, I have more confidence in the reeling Tigers winning 3/4 in the Dome than I do of us winning two or even three against the Indians this weekend. But it's the truth.

I still stand on what i said before the Boston series ,is that this may be the series that defines the Sox chances of making the playoffs.As a Sox fan this breaks my heart to say this .But they don't deserve to be in the playoffs the way they played.If they happen to somehow back in the playoffs ill be as happy as everyone .I do however agree with you that it looks grim right now.

Flight #24
09-08-2006, 11:32 AM
It would take Konerko (or McCarthy) matched with Garcia and Uribe...another version of the C-Lee deal. Basically getting rid of salaries to buy some flexibility with the payroll. We can't get Tejada for just Garcia/Vazquez and Uribe. That's insane, based on other trades for younger prospects (like Santana/Aybar or Oswalt/Everett/Lidge) Angelos shot down.

If we could clear Konerko/Garcia/Uribe from the books, we would be in a MUCH better position. And obviously the O's were interested in Konerko...so there should be a match.

Obviously not a very easy move to make for KW and the front office, but that fans will survive...they would rather have another WS winner than Thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Valentin, Konerko...at least I THINK SO, lol.

Konerko ain't going anywhere. IIRC, he's a 5-10 guy. Plus I don't see them dealing the guy that he & Ozzie have publicly identified as their key leader, especially after he has a solid year. Offensively, the key is getting someone at the #1 who can get on base better than Podsednik and who can actually execute "ozzieball" when he comes up with guys on base.

That's why I like Vizquel. He can get on base at a .350+clip, which is solid. And for most of the game, when he comes up with a man on, he's not an automatic popup to the infield or easy DP ball. Yes, he's not a prototypical leadoff guy - but he can get the job done while also providing more stable defensive play at SS than Juan. And he lets you make the easier step of finding a solid offensive replacement in LF.

Hitmen77
09-08-2006, 11:40 AM
I think Uribe, Pods, Garcia, and Alomar are good candidates to be gone. I like Gload, but he may go if we can find a backup who can play good D in the OF. I'm going to flip this question around and list who I think will be here next year:

C: AJ
1B: PK
2B: Iguchi
SS: ????
3B: Crede
RF: Dye
CF: Anderson
LF: ????
DH: Thome
Bench: Mackowiak, Cintron, Ozuna, ???, ???

SP: Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, Vazquez, McCarthy
RP: Jenks, Thornton, Macdougal, Riske, Cotts, ???

Will Sweeney be ready to play LF in 2007? If so, who will be our leadoff hitter? Other than promoting Sweeney, I haven't followed the market enough to have an idea who the Sox may acquire via trade or F/A to fill the openings above.

hawkjt
09-08-2006, 11:41 AM
I say Kenny works out a 3year deal with MB that is loaded with incentives. You cannot trade a starting lefty with his kind of history when he still shy of 29. Kenny Rogers is what? 41? I refuse to believe that MB does not have Rogers talent.

Cotts -same deal- he is a lefty power arm who would not fetch a bag of balls on the market right now. Buy low,sell high. Cotts needs to get a fresh look in the spring.

Iguchi- unless we come up with better-hes here.

Freddy- gone.
Javvy- still here.

PK- not sure what he would fetch but his numbers are still strong so he could command quite a bit. I would not shop him actively but quietly listen to pitching offers.

Cintron- keep him.
Mack - keep him
Pablo- keep him

Sandy- retired
Hermy- see how he holds up this fall
The rest- keep 'em

Kenny is prone to big splash moves so my guess is that it would have to be a package of freddy and PK to achieve that - but I am leery of moving PK cuz he is still in his prime

hawkjt
09-08-2006, 11:41 AM
I say Kenny works out a 3year deal with MB that is loaded with incentives. You cannot trade a starting lefty with his kind of history when he still shy of 29. Kenny Rogers is what? 41? I refuse to believe that MB does not have Rogers talent.

Cotts -same deal- he is a lefty power arm who would not fetch a bag of balls on the market right now. Buy low,sell high. Cotts needs to get a fresh look in the spring.

Iguchi- unless we come up with better-hes here.

Freddy- gone.
Javvy- still here.

PK- not sure what he would fetch but his numbers are still strong so he could command quite a bit. I would not shop him actively but quietly listen to pitching offers.

Cintron- keep him.
Mack - keep him
Pablo- keep him

Sandy- retired
Hermy- see how he holds up this fall
The rest- keep 'em

Kenny is prone to big splash moves so my guess is that it would have to be a package of freddy and PK to achieve that - but I am leery of moving PK cuz he is still in his prime

Flight #24
09-08-2006, 11:45 AM
Bench: Mackowiak, Cintron, Ozuna, ???, ???

RP: Jenks, Thornton, Macdougal, Riske, Cotts, ???



Just a minor note, but for all the complaining about Mack/Citnron/Ozuna - that's a damn good bench right there. The problem isn't that they're bad bench players, it's that they're not good everyday starters, but they're being forced into starting roles and in Mack's case, positions they're not suited for. Add in a legit backup OF who can play CF (Sweeney?) and a backup C and that's still a great bench.

And the 'pen is very good as well. Needs a long relief man, but that's something that you can either a)find a veteran former starter to fill or b)have a rookie starter do (ala Buehrle & McCarthy).

alohafri
09-08-2006, 11:52 AM
ZMZ:

The reason I thought Iguchi could be considered is because with Cintron the Sox do have a capable replacement.

Tad is now in his 30's, he's had an ankle issue this year (that wasn't publicized very much) and to me a telling comment by Ozzie started me thinking he may have soured on him.

You remember last week Ozzie put the onus on the 'top two and bottom two hitters' in the lineup for the club's struggles.
Well Tadahito hits second doesn't he? Tadahito hasn't done the things he was doing in 05 (i.e. 'Ozzie-Ball') and Ozzie has already stated repeatedly about his desire to get back to that in 2006. Ozzie also tried to move him down in the order in the spring and it didn't work (which may also have soured Ozzie on him...I don't know)

I think he's a longer shot to go then the other names on the list but it wouldn't completely shock me if he was dealt / let go.

Lip

Gooch hasn't done anything because the AAA player that is Podsednik hasn't been getting on base. Hence, Gooch hasn't been getting the fastballs that he did last year when Pods was on base and a base stealing threat. Get a new fast leadoff guy and Gooch gets those fastballs.

Thome25
09-08-2006, 11:54 AM
Konerko ain't going anywhere. IIRC, he's a 5-10 guy. Plus I don't see them dealing the guy that he & Ozzie have publicly identified as their key leader, especially after he has a solid year. Offensively, the key is getting someone at the #1 who can get on base better than Podsednik and who can actually execute "ozzieball" when he comes up with guys on base.

That's why I like Vizquel. He can get on base at a .350+clip, which is solid. And for most of the game, when he comes up with a man on, he's not an automatic popup to the infield or easy DP ball. Yes, he's not a prototypical leadoff guy - but he can get the job done while also providing more stable defensive play at SS than Juan. And he lets you make the easier step of finding a solid offensive replacement in LF.

I agree. Konerko WILL NOT be traded. He has been named team captain and therefore is the team leader. Would the Red Cubs Trade Varitek or the Yankmees trade Jeter? It would be the equivalent if the White Sox trade Konerko.

I know that statement is going to bring all the "Konerko haters" out of the woodwork but, you don't trade your team leader PERIOD.

Remember, he was also a great clutch hitter in the playoffs last year and he gave the White Sox a discount so he could stay with them. (The Angels and Orioles offered him more money.)

The White Sox wouldn't repay him by trading him away. I also think the fan backlash from such a trade would be huge.

INSox56
09-08-2006, 12:05 PM
Vazquez I hope will come back actually. The guy's been good lately (Aug ER: 1, 2, 3, 4, 2, 2, 1) The basics are easy....gone are:

Garcia
Pods (not re-sign him, UNLIKE sign him and trade as some have mentioned...)
Sandy is gonna retire
Hermanson (unless incentive-laden, which is pretty much gone more or less)


There are a number of moves that can be made in conjunction with those trades or just by themselves that can effect even more players. Uribe being gone would not make me sad in the least. I still half jokingly mention some sort of deal for Crede + players for Arod (he's not as expensive as you'd think) which would take care of Uribe as well as clear room for Fields. Buehrle could be traded somehow perhaps, who knows. I DON'T think Philips would be a good replacement. He's somewhat of a Buehrle-type pitcher and we've seen how many calls Mark hasn't gotten. Pitchers have admitted that the zone is much tighter in the majors versus AAA. And trading Konerko....I know I know kneejerk reaction says no, but despite his 300 avg this year, I don't think he's been very clutch at ALL for the last 2 months.

INSox56
09-08-2006, 12:08 PM
I also don't think Tejada would be THAT much of a good thing for our team. The only player they'd want is basically Konerko. If you haven't seen, we've all bitched about Konerko's strikeouts, but Tejada actually has more Ks than he does. Not saying he'd be a GREAT improvement over Uribe, but it'd essentially be a wash (stat-wise) so why bother.

soxfanatlanta
09-08-2006, 12:25 PM
I agree with this .That its a tough call to make for K.W ..9 million is a helluva pricey gamble to make.Becuse if hey do pick up the option and Buerhle is bad ,all of us who praised K.W are going to reem him a new one.

Considering AJ Burnett (7-6 4.22 100 IP) is getting $11 million per year, I'd say that MB's option is a blue light special. KW might get some flak if he picks up the option, and MB has a crumy year, but he could trade him mid season to a team who will give up prospects for a rent-a-pitcher. If KW does not sign him, and MB has a good year elsewhere, you will hear people calling for his head from around the world.

The Immigrant
09-08-2006, 12:31 PM
Gooch hasn't done anything because the AAA player that is Podsednik hasn't been getting on base. Hence, Gooch hasn't been getting the fastballs that he did last year when Pods was on base and a base stealing threat. Get a new fast leadoff guy and Gooch gets those fastballs.

:hawk

I love it when you analyze.

:thumbsup:

kitekrazy
09-08-2006, 12:33 PM
While thinking some of these people may be gone you have to figure who are their replacements and where are they going to come from.

Just about every team needs a decent lead off hitter. At what price are they going to pay replacing Pods?

Freddy will give you innings. So far some of the studs from the minors don't impress me.

Will the same exact team suck this bad next year?

May be what hurt this team is after winning the World Series all the players were guaranteed their starting jobs and had no competition. None of the starters had to worry about being sent to the pen. Uribes glove keeps him on the field.

I wouldn't want to be the GM of this team. I think it's difficult to assess what talent was real , over achieved or under achieved looking back at 2005 and this season.

Who knows what the Sox budget will be next season.

kitekrazy
09-08-2006, 12:39 PM
Contreras, Garland, & McCarthy are locks for the rotation next season.


I beleive two starter will be gone from the list of Garcia, Vazquez, Buehrle.

My choice would be Garcia and Buehrle because of their velocity issues this year.


Look for another project type signing as the #5 starter ( similar to what we did when we picked up El Duque, Loaiza, etc). Someone who can be signed for cheap.


I think both Dye and Crede will be signed to long term deals this off season.

What makes you so sure even with Contreras? They don't even know his real age. What if he has a few more bad outings?

Why would Buehrle be gone? He's had one bad season.

Jurr
09-08-2006, 12:47 PM
I also don't think Tejada would be THAT much of a good thing for our team. The only player they'd want is basically Konerko. If you haven't seen, we've all bitched about Konerko's strikeouts, but Tejada actually has more Ks than he does. Not saying he'd be a GREAT improvement over Uribe, but it'd essentially be a wash (stat-wise) so why bother.
Getting stat hungry power hitters is the LAST THING this team needs.

INSox56
09-08-2006, 01:01 PM
Getting stat hungry power hitters is the LAST THING this team needs.

exactly

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 01:01 PM
Just a minor note, but for all the complaining about Mack/Citnron/Ozuna - that's a damn good bench right there. The problem isn't that they're bad bench players, it's that they're not good everyday starters, but they're being forced into starting roles and in Mack's case, positions they're not suited for. Add in a legit backup OF who can play CF (Sweeney?) and a backup C and that's still a great bench.

And the 'pen is very good as well. Needs a long relief man, but that's something that you can either a)find a veteran former starter to fill or b)have a rookie starter do (ala Buehrle & McCarthy).

Sweeney has to play at least as much as BA this year or he's in the minors. For a 21/22 year old that played in Iowa growing up (not as many games year-round), he needs the experience of playing every day. Now if you want to put Owens in this role, that's fine, he's not the prospect Ryan is and he's much older and still something of a project due to his football-playing past and late start in baseball. Most consider him a 4th or 5th outfielder instead of an everyday player.

The problem is that neither Owens nor Sweeney are natural CF'ers either. But certainly better than Mackowiak...

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 01:04 PM
exactly

Which is why we definitely aren't going to look at bringing back Lee.

I think KW is at least SOMEWHAT interested in Soriano due to his speed and position (LF), but that's a longshot because someone will probably overbid based on this season. Same with Gary Mathews, Jr.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 01:06 PM
What makes you so sure even with Contreras? They don't even know his real age. What if he has a few more bad outings?

Why would Buehrle be gone? He's had one bad season.

With Cooper's oversight, his comfort level (with a Hispanic manager) and his family here, I would rather take my chances (especially since he has shown the ability to dominate against DET and BOS) bringing him back. I really want to get rid of Garcia though...which, of course, makes him harder and harder to trade without giving up prospects or money in addition.

And we decided the other day there MIGHT be five SS's that Uribe would start over in all of MLB.

INSox56
09-08-2006, 01:07 PM
Anyone see the article regarding Thornton loving the opportunity to become a starter again? I'm intrigued to the possibility at least.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 01:11 PM
Anyone see the article regarding Thornton loving the opportunity to become a starter again? I'm intrigued to the possibility at least.

Heck, let Cotts and Thornton both try to start in Winter Ball. We have Logan as a back-up plan, and one of the two might have what it takes. Thornton is the most intriguing because of his FB, but neither one of them seem to have the second, third and even forth pitches to easily make the transition.

Thornton does have that nice, easily repeatable motion that makes you think he could throw 95-96 over 5-6 innings, but he would have to add something that was major league average or better to his repertoire to survive three or four times through the line-up.

soxfanatlanta
09-08-2006, 01:16 PM
The problem is that neither Owens nor Sweeney are natural CF'ers either. But certainly better than Mackowiak...

I've seen Sweeney play center a few times this year; his routes were pretty decent; much better that Mack's.

BadBobbyJenks
09-08-2006, 01:20 PM
Heck, let Cotts and Thornton both try to start in Winter Ball. We have Logan as a back-up plan, and one of the two might have what it takes. Thornton is the most intriguing because of his FB, but neither one of them seem to have the second, third and even forth pitches to easily make the transition.

Thornton does have that nice, easily repeatable motion that makes you think he could throw 95-96 over 5-6 innings, but he would have to add something that was major league average or better to his repertoire to survive three or four times through the line-up.


Somehow I doubt cotts and his 2 pitches working well in a starters role

stl_sox_fan
09-08-2006, 01:22 PM
Anyone see the article regarding Thornton loving the opportunity to become a starter again? I'm intrigued to the possibility at least.

Good point. You just reminded I read or heard that a little while back. Having two lefties in the starting rotation would be sweet. Plus I think I remember his being quoted as he could bring the heat for several innings. But I only hope/pray that he doesn't fail and they go back to the "5th starter problem" of 2004 again.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 01:32 PM
But what pitches does he get strikeouts and busted bats with besides his fastball?

If he had JUST two pitches, but they were the fastball and then a biting high 80's slider like Liriano or Rivera's cutter or Santana's change-up, you'd have something very special. He doesn't need more than three, but they can't be like Cotts' secondary pitches. They usually end up in the bleachers. Remember 04?

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 01:34 PM
I've seen Sweeney play center a few times this year; his routes were pretty decent; much better that Mack's.

The problem is that "just decent" is not going to cut it. If we're going to rebuild or retool this club, keep Anderson in CF and use Sweeney in LF (an upgrade)...better yet, get Ichiro and move Dye to LF. That would be nice, lol. Crawford/Roberts/Pierre in LF would each be upgrades as well.

Rooney4Prez56
09-08-2006, 01:35 PM
I can't believe we're already talking off-season.

Fake Chet Lemon
09-08-2006, 01:53 PM
I can't believe we're already talking off-season.

Why not, the team is thinking off-season? Or were the Red Sox throwing Cy Young against us every night?

.........Picking up Buehrle's option is a no-brainer. He's a lefty, he basically never misses a start, and his overall body of work is still well above average. Health is as important as any pitching stat, look up Wood and Prior if anyone disagrees.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 01:55 PM
I can't believe we're already talking off-season.

Plus Ozzie's spent more time recently talking about next year with BA and Winter Ball and not being guaranteed of a position (even though he acknowledges nobody else is suited for CF) and praising Sweeney than he has anything else.

soxfanatlanta
09-08-2006, 01:56 PM
The problem is that "just decent" is not going to cut it. If we're going to rebuild or retool this club, keep Anderson in CF and use Sweeney in LF (an upgrade)...better yet, get Ichiro and move Dye to LF. That would be nice, lol. Crawford/Roberts/Pierre in LF would each be upgrades as well.

Don't get me wrong: Anderson is my CF of choice today, tomorrow, until he starts asking for ARod money :smile:. I was comparing him to Mack as a center fielder. Now as for left field, unless he kicks some mighty ass this year, tears it up during winter ball, then walks on water next spring, he will be in Charlotte starting next year, IMO. I write this because Guillen probably does not want another rookie in the outfield for '06 after BA's trials and tribulations at the plate this year.

Just a guess.

Chicken Dinner
09-08-2006, 02:00 PM
I see Ozzie doing a mini-series for the Telemundo channel. Filming starts in October.

my5thbench
09-08-2006, 02:00 PM
We can't be too sure about Buehrle....he's pitched poorly of late, there is that option on him that would need to be picked up....& is his recent back problem to become an issue? I'm not so sure, we would all hate to see Mark go, but there is more to consider regarding him than in the past.

Fake Chet Lemon
09-08-2006, 02:07 PM
I see Ozzie doing a mini-series for the Telemundo channel. Filming starts in October.

I think he has a new Car-manager commercial coming out soon too........in this one he jams the Finance Managers head in the toilet for some reason. Good stuff.

JB98
09-08-2006, 02:09 PM
According to the Cubune, Crede wanted to stay in on Wednesday and play through it but Ozzie pulled him.

I know it. My initial post was meant as a shot at Ozzie's stupidity, not Crede's toughness. I know Joe wants to be out there.

Flight #24
09-08-2006, 02:24 PM
We can't be too sure about Buehrle....he's pitched poorly of late, there is that option on him that would need to be picked up....& is his recent back problem to become an issue? I'm not so sure, we would all hate to see Mark go, but there is more to consider regarding him than in the past.

Buehrle's option is a no-brainer (unless he's injured). It's a 1-year deal either at or below market for a guy with his track record. And he's arguably more as much the face of the franchise as anyone else outside of Ozzie. Which counts for a little.

The real question will be whether or not to extend Mark at a discount after this year or to let him play out the option and take the risk of a vintage Buehrle year and a big payday after '07.

BanditJimmy
09-08-2006, 02:29 PM
4 options with Buehrle:

1. Buy him out and let him walk
2. Pick up the $9-$10 million option.
3. Trade him
4. Try to sign long term at a discount price because of his down year.


I would go for #4 if the price is right.


If not, I would go for #3 and try to get something in return for him now and save $10 million next season.

No way would I roll the dice on him for only 1 more year at $10 million and knowing he will walk for nothing after that.

Corlose 15
09-08-2006, 02:47 PM
Here's my take on the situation. Like a few other posters here I think KW is only going to do a minor overhaul.

I'd like to see him do some sort of upgrade with LF and SS. Maybe get a good shortstop who can leadoff and put Sweeney in left if they feel he is ready. Please not Vizquel though, that guy is ancient and not what they need.

As for the starters I think Contreras, Buehrle, Vazquez and Garland all come back with McCarthy taking Garcia's spot. Maybe you trade Garcia for a shortstop or some relievers. Also, you don't dump Buehrle to the curb because of one bad second half. His career era is 3.79 and this will be the second season he finishes with an ERA above 4. Some of you want to dump him and audtion for the 5th spot again? Didn't we have enough of that **** the last 4 years? They do need to figure out why he's getting pounded by RH hitters though.

As for Cotts, I don't think he's going anywhere, he's a cheap young lefthander reliever whose had some success. I remember Coop saying last year that he felt Cotts had the chance to be one of the best lefties in the league. Whether thats going to happen or not I don't know but I believe he'll be in Tucson come spring.


As for the bench, Mack and Cintron a very good bench players and if Rob wasn't forced to play out of position nobody would have a problem with him.


Enough talk about next year though. Its about time these guys pulled their collective heads out and took this damn thing!

kobo
09-08-2006, 02:50 PM
I also don't think Tejada would be THAT much of a good thing for our team. The only player they'd want is basically Konerko. If you haven't seen, we've all bitched about Konerko's strikeouts, but Tejada actually has more Ks than he does. Not saying he'd be a GREAT improvement over Uribe, but it'd essentially be a wash (stat-wise) so why bother.
Tejada has struck out 66 times this year, Konerko 94.

Tejada's season stats: AVG .332 | HR 22 | RBI 90 | OBP .381 | SLG .512

Uribe's season stats: AVG .233 | HR 16 | RBI 60 | OBP .258 | SLG .423

Konerko's Stats: AVG .305 | HR 30 | RBI 97 | OBP .379 | SLG .540

Why do people want to see Buehrle traded or think he will be traded? Because of one bad year? I wouldn't give up on him right now.

And as far as Konerko goes, does he have a no trade clause in his contract? Again, he's someone else I don't see them moving, they wanted him to stay, they got him, I think he won't be moved.

Flight #24
09-08-2006, 02:54 PM
Just FWIW, if they can move Uribe & Garcia, I could see KW taking a run at Julio Lugo. He's had OBPs of .366 & .373 the past 2 years leading off, and is an all-around good hitter. Also, IIRC he has decent D at SS (but I'm not 100% on that).

Given the Sox lack of minor league depth in the MI, I could see KW ponying up for him as long as it doesn't get too expensive. Then he could either go get a true LF bat or use the savings to try and upgrade the rotation and go with Sweeney/Fields in LF.

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 03:08 PM
They would have to do lots of due diligence like KW has done in the past with Everett and AJ.

Domestic violence is not something I want around my favorite team, we took a chance with Wil Cordero but I would prefer to find someone with a more admirable personality....like a Dye or Hermanson type.

I don't know, maybe Lugo's a much better, mature person now...but it takes a lot for an organization to outright waive a player with that talent (ala Hillenbrand/D. Young or Charles Rogers in the NFL).

caulfield12
09-08-2006, 03:11 PM
4 options with Buehrle:

1. Buy him out and let him walk
2. Pick up the $9-$10 million option.
3. Trade him
4. Try to sign long term at a discount price because of his down year.


I would go for #4 if the price is right.


If not, I would go for #3 and try to get something in return for him now and save $10 million next season.

No way would I roll the dice on him for only 1 more year at $10 million and knowing he will walk for nothing after that.

We have to pick up the option before we can trade him.

Same thing with Pods....we have to offer him arbitration or cut him adrift. There's always the risk we won't be able to find a good trade partner or we'll be stuck with a $3-4 million player in Pods that will sit on the bench. Something we definitely want to avoid. And it wouldn't be fair to Scott either.

INSox56
09-08-2006, 03:15 PM
Lugo may be the best option for SS....why did the Dodgers pick him up if they have Furcal..?

SOXandILLINI
09-08-2006, 03:18 PM
i'll probably catch some heat for this, but i would love to see paulie moved. we are sooooo slow 3-8 in our lineup, and paulie may be the slowest man in the united states. it takes 2 hits to score him from 2nd base about 80% of the time, that is just ridiculous. we need a first baseman with a little speed and a little pop, not one with alot of pop and 0 speed. we have plenty of power in this lineup already. JD is the only one with marginal speed in the middle of our lineup, and it doesn't matter cus he doesn't know how many outs there are anyway:smile: .


pods needs to go, tadahito needs to stay. let buerhle go to stl if he wants to so bad, and garcia can smooch my rear as well. sweeney will be a fixture here for a long time, the kid is a ballplayer. also looking forward to seeing josh fields.

thomas35forever
09-08-2006, 03:32 PM
Here's who needs to go:

Garcia
Vazquez
Cotts
Uribe
Podsednik
Mackowiak
Alomar (but he can come back to coach)
Hermanson

the gooch
09-08-2006, 03:48 PM
i'll probably catch some heat for this, but i would love to see paulie moved.Paulie has a lot of value here and elsewhere. Getting rid of him won't help this team. Trading him along with Garcia and prospects for Tejada would. Baltimore isn't that dumb, unfortunately.

Yeah he is a fan favorite. He would be one of my favorites if he brought us something special in a trade.
One of my favorite AJ quotes: "I don't know why Twins fans hate me. I brought them Nathan, Liriano, and Bonser. They should make a statue of me outside the park."

zmz723
09-08-2006, 03:54 PM
Here's who needs to go:

Garcia
Vazquez
Cotts
Uribe
Podsednik
Mackowiak
Alomar (but he can come back to coach)
Hermanson

There is no reason to get rid of Mackowiak! He's a great bench player IF HE PLAYS HIS POSITION.

Unless we find a better 5th starter than Javy, he will stay here.

pauliemyhero14
09-08-2006, 05:46 PM
dude u will not find one better # 5 starter in the game than javy. think about it javy would be a top 2-3 starter on any other team. as for players i believe that will be gone are.
Players leaving

scott podsednik
Jaun Uribe
neal cotts
mark buerhle
freddy garcia
and from a minor league prespect JOSH FIELDS. he might not get traded in the offseason but i believe he will not be able to play outfield and they will either trade him or joe crede.

Players taking their spot

Podsednik = ryan sweeney
uribe = julio lugo
cotts = boone logan
buehrle = brandon McCarthy
garcia = either heath phillips or charlie Haeger

KyWhiSoxFan
09-08-2006, 05:54 PM
dude u will not find one better # 5 starter in the game than javy. think about it javy would be a top 2-3 starter on any other team. as for players i believe that will be gone are.
Players leaving

scott podsednik
Jaun Uribe
neal cotts
mark buerhle
freddy garcia
and from a minor league prespect JOSH FIELDS. he might not get traded in the offseason but i believe he will not be able to play outfield and they will either trade him or joe crede.

Players taking their spot

Podsednik = ryan sweeney
uribe = julio lugo
cotts = boone logan
buehrle = brandon McCarthy
garcia = either heath phillips or charlie Haeger

I can agree on the guys leaving, even Buehle. But we save so much on Buerhle and Garcia (if we can find someone to take his entire dontract), that KW will make a move to get another, proven pitcher. I would look at Padilla, a free agent. That would yield starters Contreras, Garland, McCarthy, Vazquez, and Padilla. Missing a lefthander, though.

But that would allow Haeger to move into the pen in long relief.

To solve our outfield problems, I would get Gary Matthews Jr. That would solve the leadoff problem and center field at the same time. Then we platoon Sweeney and Anderson in left, with those two giving Matthews and Dye a rest when needed.

pauliemyhero14
09-08-2006, 05:56 PM
if we got padilla i really think A.J. and him would be come great friends real fast expecially with padilla hitting him twice in 2 pitches lol

Mohoney
09-08-2006, 06:30 PM
JB:

Just wondering...

Are your also referring to his 'outfield' performance?

Lip

It's not Mack's fault that he's playing out of position.

wassagstdu
09-08-2006, 07:05 PM
Tadahito hasn't done the things he was doing in 05 (i.e. 'Ozzie-Ball') and Ozzie has already stated repeatedly about his desire to get back to that in 2006. Ozzie also tried to move him down in the order in the spring and it didn't work (which may also have soured Ozzie on him...I don't know)

I think he's a longer shot to go then the other names on the list but it wouldn't completely shock me if he was dealt / let go.
I think that talk about moving Iguchi down in the order may have been the first mistake. As we can now see, we needed him to continue to do the situational hitting things he did so well last year, not provide a little more power to a lineup full of power. Because of that decision, Iguchi turned down the possibility of playing on the Japanese team that won the WBC, and I think that is unfortunate and probably so does Iguchi. Because he did that he was probably reluctant to give up on the idea of reverting to his Japanese style completely, and consequently he has not been as valuable as he was last year.

I doubt that Ozzie is confused about any of this.

My opinion: Iguchi should be the last to go.

.

wassagstdu
09-08-2006, 07:06 PM
I would look at Padilla, a free agent.

No Padilla, no way, period.

.

Sox-o-matic
09-08-2006, 07:13 PM
I agree with this .That its a tough call to make for K.W ..9 million is a helluva pricey gamble to make.Becuse if hey do pick up the option and Buerhle is bad ,all of us who praised K.W are going to reem him a new one.

$9 million isn't a gamble at all when you have stiffs like Loaiza and Byrd getting paid around $7 mil per year. Even if Mark's poor performance this year continues into next year, $9 mil is still a bargain in comparison to all the money a guy like Zito is going to command in FA.

Sox-o-matic
09-08-2006, 07:29 PM
Here's who needs to go:

Garcia
Vazquez
Cotts
Uribe
Podsednik
Mackowiak
Alomar (but he can come back to coach)
Hermanson

Some people need to seriously re-evaluate the causes for the poor play of this 2006 team.

Mackowiak is a terrific option on the bench in that he can play almost every position on the field except catcher and pitcher in a pinch. He has done a very good job coming off the bench and getting a hit to start off an inning or keep an inning going, and these are the things that make him valuable. He has looked bad in CF because he is not a CF, but this should not be held against him because KW is the one who didn't put a backup CF on the roster. Anderson was struggling and Ozzie felt he needed some more offense, and it's not his fault either that he had no better option than Rob.

Vazquez looks like he might be turning that corner for good now. Even when he was blowing up in the late innings, a lot of those earned runs he gave up were due to a piss poor job by the bullpen. At the rate he has been improving since around the AS break, it makes absolutely no sense to get rid of him. KW dealt for Contreras knowing it would take some time to reap the benefits and the acquistion of Javy was probably the same thing.

Cotts isn't going to have the greatest trade value in the world after this season, so I'd rather see him in AAA then as a throw in a trade. We know what he can do when he's on and that is too valuable for an organization to throw away.

*** has Sandy Alomar done that has caused this team to lose like this? Unless the oranization is really high on Chris Stewart and KW thinks he can get the job done, there is no reason to dump a backup catcher who has more experience with pitchers than anyone else on this club, coaching staff included.

Podsednik and Uribe could be gone, but only if we can find someone better to replace them with, especially in Pods' case. There are also reasons to dump Garcia, but I just have this feeling that he is going to get his velocity back next year and have the best year of his career. I'd really hate to see him go to another team and watch him outpitch us in the playoffs.

Sox-o-matic
09-08-2006, 07:38 PM
They would have to do lots of due diligence like KW has done in the past with Everett and AJ.

Domestic violence is not something I want around my favorite team, we took a chance with Wil Cordero but I would prefer to find someone with a more admirable personality....like a Dye or Hermanson type.

I don't know, maybe Lugo's a much better, mature person now...but it takes a lot for an organization to outright waive a player with that talent (ala Hillenbrand/D. Young or Charles Rogers in the NFL).

Julio Lugo is the last thing this team needs. As far as potential free agents go, the only guy who could be available that is young enough and good enough to replace Uribe would be Alex Gonzalez (the good one), but I'd think Boston would at least attempt to resign him. Alex Cora could be a nice option on the bench if Cintron were to take over at SS.

The thing is though, Uribe was just as bad with the bat last year as he's been this year, and we won the World Series last year. I think the problem with the offense has more to due with the lack of a leadoff man and the return to station-to-station baseball brought on by inserting Thome into the three spot of the lineup.

Frater Perdurabo
09-08-2006, 08:55 PM
i'll probably catch some heat for this, but i would love to see paulie moved.

Putting aside the 5-10 issue for the moment, Paulie would be the most "logical" player to move who would have value to another team. Crede can put up similar numbers and plays a much more difficult position. In addition to his excellent RF defense, Dye's put up better numbers and is obscenely cheaper. Thome's lefty bat adds balance to the lineup.

Paulie could fetch real value in return and could be "replaced" with a platoon of Gload/Fields. The obvious loss in power would be partially offset by better speed, which is the kind of baseball Ozzie wants to play anyway. Between backing up at 3B and getting half the starts at first, Fields could get 500 plate appearances.

Then, get Lugo or Vizquel to leadoff and play shortstop, and the Sox have a nice lineup of: Lugo/Vizquel, Iguchi, Dye, Thome, Crede, AJ, Anderson, Gload/Fields, Sweeney.

wassagstdu
09-08-2006, 09:09 PM
But here's my list of the guys that I think Kenny will be "trying" to move in various scenarios or will wind up letting go. These are guys currently on the big league roster right now:

Neal Cotts
Freddy Garcia
Dustin Hermanson
Javier Vazquez
Sandy Alomar Jr.
Alex Cintron
Ross Gload
Tadahito Iguchi
Juan Uribe
Scott Posednik
Rob Mackowiak
I think you have got the last 6 all wrong. I would use Billy Beane's "sell the closer" strategy: sell who is overvalued. What is overvalued -- as Sox fans know better than anyone -- is power. That is also what the Sox have an abundance of. They need to exchange some of that power for speed -- as in Carlos Lee for Pods -- and situational hitting. So instead of the last six I would rather give up, say two of
Thome
Konerko
Crede
Dye

And taking Beane literally, Jenks

All would command some top talent, which I would trust KW to choose well. "Overvalued" means we could get more for them than they are actually worth, by which I mean how much a player will contribute to winning in real life, not in fantasy leagues. Dye has slowed down considerably, especially on the bases, and his value will be peak at the end of this season. Crede, Konerko, and Thome are all probably at peak value too, and the Sox just cannot afford to keep all of them in the lineup killing some pitchers and laying down for others and clogging the bases.

Iguchi is the last Sox player I would trade. Uribe is the best shortstop the Sox (or anyone else) have had since Aparicio -- sometimes. If he could keep his head straight he would be a fixture at short for a long time. I am not ready to give up on him. A lot of his mistakes come from trying to do too much, I think. I am also not ready to give up on Podsednik. I think he is undervalued. Maybe he can play winter ball, then I would like to see if he regains his speed and first-step acceleration in 2007. If not, there is plenty of time to move him. Cintron, Mackowiak, and Gload have been great bench players. I am guessing they would be undervalued on the market, so keep them.

How you react to some of this depends on your answer to the questions: Is the long term trend for this team up or down? Are they more or less likely to win next year than they were this year? Can we upgrade starting pitching without giving up power?

.

Frater Perdurabo
09-08-2006, 09:18 PM
I think you have got the last 6 all wrong. I would use Billy Beane's "sell the closer" strategy: sell who is overvalued. What is overvalued -- as Sox fans know better than anyone -- is power. That is also what the Sox have an abundance of. They need to exchange some of that power for speed -- as in Carlos Lee for Pods -- and situational hitting. So instead of the last six I would rather give up, say two of
Thome
Konerko
Crede
Dye

And taking Beane literally, Jenks

All would command some top talent, which I would trust KW to choose well. "Overvalued" means we could get more for them than they are actually worth, by which I mean how much a player will contribute to winning in real life, not in fantasy leagues. Dye has slowed down considerably, especially on the bases, and his value will be peak at the end of this season. Crede, Konerko, and Thome are all probably at peak value too, and the Sox just cannot afford to keep all of them in the lineup killing some pitchers and laying down for others and clogging the bases.

Iguchi is the last Sox player I would trade. Uribe is the best shortstop the Sox (or anyone else) have had since Aparicio -- sometimes. If he could keep his head straight he would be a fixture at short for a long time. I am not ready to give up on him. A lot of his mistakes come from trying to do too much, I think. I am also not ready to give up on Podsednik. I think he is undervalued. Maybe he can play winter ball, then I would like to see if he regains his speed and first-step acceleration in 2007. If not, there is plenty of time to move him. Cintron, Mackowiak, and Gload have been great bench players. I am guessing they would be undervalued on the market, so keep them.

How you react to some of this depends on your answer to the questions: Is the long term trend for this team up or down? Are they more or less likely to win next year than they were this year? Can we upgrade starting pitching without giving up power?

The team does not need to be dismantled. Re-loading is all we need. I think the Sox could get a nice package - and a ton of payroll flexibility - in return for Paulie, Garcia and Uribe. For 2007, more than $25 million would come off the books. With that kind of flexibility, the starting rotation and bullpen could be upgraded tremendously as well as extend the deals on Buehrle, Crede and Dye.

First base can be filled with a Gload/Fields platoon. Less power but more speed and probably similar average. Shortstop/leadoff can be filled with Vizquel or Lugo. Sweeney-Anderson-Dye would be the very best defensive outfield in the majors.

A. Cavatica
09-08-2006, 10:47 PM
I'm not sure Cotts is going to be moved. Young cheap lefthanders are the best trade bait you can have, so it's very possible. But Cotts was absolutely nails last year, and it's probably easier to fix him than replace him, should Logan falter.

I think Kenny will listen to offers on all five starters. Of course he'd rather move some than others, but there are no untouchables right now.

Podsednik is the only certain departure among the position regulars, but the Sox need to find a new leadoff hitter. If the guy they zero in on isn't a left fielder, they'll use Sweeney or Fields in left and give up someone they'd ordinarily want to keep (think Rowand for Thome). That could mean dealing Uribe, Iguchi, Crede, or even Dye (if they want Ichiro).

Finally, I love the versatility of our current bench, but I think one of these guys will be traded.

Hitmen77
09-09-2006, 01:05 AM
I Still say More the Garcia will be gone ..The question really is are the Sox going to pick up Buerhles option and would you considering the year hes having?

Wasn't it more like a bad 6 weeks? IIRC, his ERA was 3.20 or something going into July. Starting in mid-August, he rebounded a bit and won 4 out of 5 decisions. Last night sucked though - I hope it was just a bad outing and we'll more outings like the one against the Twins last Sunday.:praying:

Beautox
09-09-2006, 08:34 AM
Alright, ill take my stab at being KW.

First we need to address our weakness, there aren't alot of glaring holes on this team even though Scot Gregor of the Daily Herald (http://www.dailyherald.com/search/searchstory.asp?id=225146) would lead you to believe other wise, its pretty apparent Scot has no conception of reality and what is actually going on, on the diamond.

Our weakness: Starting pitching have underachieved from the beginning of the season sans 1st half Jose, and 2nd half Garland and Javy. Neal Cotts has decided he no longer wants to be an effective LOOGY. Scott Podsednik has lost more than one step in both LF and on the basepaths. Juan Uribe all though slick with his glove is madding at the plate.

First I would deal Garcia to the reds for Ryan Freel(yes i know he has a drinking problem) and a low/mid level prospect(RHPZach Ward); Freel gets on base at .370 clip and will steal 40 bags and hit for limited power 10HRs on avg. Like Garcia, Freel is in his last year of his contract and the reds have another Leadoff hitter OFer waiting in the wings named Chris Denorfia, also Adam Dunn will be moving to 1B seeing how hes a butcher in LF. I would depending on how Sweeney develops in winter ball either put Freel in LF or move him to SS, if in left field Uribe can stay, if at SS Uribe gets delt. Either way that solidifies our Lead off man LF/SS dilemma.

If we can't acquire Freel i would go after Lugo in FA, or try and get Rollins since Philly has Bourn in the wings, maybe if Tejada makes enough noise and the O's wants to move him and Daniel Cabera, inquire.

Next i would sell high on Jose, the reason being is that for the past year he has been arguably the best if not one of the best pitchers in the game, with a weak FA class (http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/08/players_on_the.php) this offseason, and pitchers getting crazy contracts, Jose is one of the best pitchers out there and his contract is under market value, to us hes older and a health risk; Sell High and get a kings ransom, possibly a package of him and Cotts.

Uribe + Podsednik both get delt for midlevel 'spects to restock our farm.

With the money saved by dealing all the above players and Hermanson coming off the books 3.5mil (buy out .5mil) i would then Re-Sign MB and Crede long term. Re-Sign Riske.

The reason for not dealing Javy is because hes still young (30), hasn't lost his "stuff" like Garcia, will give you 200IP, and isn't a health risk, oh and he has an ERA of 3.00 in his last 45IP, if we sell now we would have to eat a large portion of his contract and would be selling low, we gave up Chris Young(stud!), we have to wait and see. Personally i think next year we will see Javy emerge as a #1.


2007 25man Roster

SP - MB, JG, Javy, McCarthy, Haeger
BP - Jenks, MacDougal, Thornton, Logan, Riske, Tracey

BO
SS Freel R
2B Iguchi R *
RF Dye R
DH Thome L
1B Konerko R
3B Crede R
C AJP L
CF Anderson R
LF Sweeney L *

depending on ST i might consider moving Iguchi down, and Sweeney in the 2 hole.

Bench - Mackowiak, Cintron, Gload, Ozuna, Stewart

To the people that aren't high on Haeger, the organization is obviously high on him(exhibition games against Atlanta, spot start, sept call up). He can get out ML hitters, and when his pitch is on its filthy. Having a knuckle baller on the staff allows us to keep a really tight leash on Javy and all starters for that matter. We have the least used BP in mlb for the past two years and that allows us to tax them even less. All our starters are having career worst years and i think next season we will see the emergence of Vazquez as a #1 and MB will rebound JG who has been great for the second half will come out strong, McCarthy will at the very least be average but i think he will be much more than that, and Haeger well its a gamble but its one im willing to take with Broadway waiting in the wings by mid '07. (http://www.futuresox.com/frontpage/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=367)



Anyways just my .02

Tragg
09-09-2006, 08:49 AM
The problem with moving Cotts is that nobody's going to give us anything for him. Trade him last year; or trade Thornton this year if you want value.

Why is everyone so down on Uribe? Uribe has a superior OPS to the Cintrons, Coras and Gonzales. Now, perhaps we don't need Uribe's power...but somebody sure would like it. If we don't want Uribe he absolutely is a tradeable commodity. Say what you want, but with a league full of no power, no OBP shortstops, Uribe represents a signficant upgrade.
Cintron is a utility ballplayer. I really hope the Sox aren't considering him as a full time player. He has a bad OBP and no power.
Gonzales has a woeful .309 OBP (career .293) and an OPS below Uribe. Alex Cora has an OPS of .641. These 2 Red Sox could only b considered upgrades in the "the grass is always greener" world, not in the real world.

Now Julio Lugo is a productive hitter. However, he will be really expensive AND I'm not sure about his D (it was bad in HOuston but it may have improved a lot).

For next year, I think we need:
a)a backup catcher
b)a left fielder; maybe send Fields to winter ball to learn the outfield (reports are he isn't a great defensive 3b anyway)...looks like he's ready to try to hit major league pitching.
c)a lead off hitter
c)some bullpen help, although that comes best from our own minors

We could consider trading:
a)Trade Cintron or Rob M - maybe sign Huff if he's not too expensive for an upgraded bench bat.
b)Maybe a reliever
c)Trade Uribe if he's in Guillen's doghouse - but be patient about it - he has value
d)I love McCarthy, but if Guillen doesn't like him and wants him on the bench, move him but get a TON for him because everyone, but us, seems to like him.
e)If they will start McCarthy, trade a starter, but I don't know who. I'd probably vote Vasquez, because he'd bring more than Garcia. And Garcia, goofy as he looks at times, has guts.
f)Do not trade Fields

Beautox
09-09-2006, 08:53 AM
The problem with moving Cotts is that nobody's going to give us anything for him. Trade him last year; or trade Thornton this year if you want value.

Why is everyone so down on Uribe? Uribe has a superior OPS to the Cintrons, Coras and Gonzales. Now, perhaps we don't need Uribe's power...but somebody sure would like it. If we don't want Uribe he absolutely is a tradeable commodity. Say what you want, but with a league full of no power, no OBP shortstops, Uribe represents a signficant upgrade.
Cintron is a utility ballplayer. I really hope the Sox aren't considering him as a full time player. He has a bad OBP and no power.
Gonzales has a woeful .309 OBP (career .293) and an OPS below Uribe. Alex Cora has an OPS of .641. These 2 Red Sox could only b considered upgrades in the "the grass is always greener" world, not in the real world.

Now Julio Lugo is a productive hitter. However, he will be really expensive AND I'm not sure about his D (it was bad in HOuston but it may have improved a lot).

Again, trading Uribe brings talent in return. This is not your Neffi Perez, Cintron or Gonzales.

Your wrong about Cotts, we got David Riske for milb free agent Javy Lopez, and we got super sub Rob Mackowiak for Damaso Marte. Cotts has just lost it this year, but last year was lights out, it isn't a health issue, his contract is relatively cheap, hes young and hes left handed, LOOGYs are incredibly valued, we will defiantly get something of value for him.

MadetoOrta
09-09-2006, 09:18 AM
Here's a name to throw out there - what position I don't know because he plays all over the place - Chris Burke of the Astros. Burke hit the ball hard in the WS, plays all over the place and is a true grinder. I thought he and Taveras were outstanding in the WS. [Berkman too but let's be realistic] I thought it was mentioned at the All-Star break that KW inquired about him.

I think he came up as a SS or 2d baseman.

Thoughts?

Tragg
09-09-2006, 09:19 AM
Your wrong about Cotts, we got David Riske for milb free agent Javy Lopez, and we got super sub Rob Mackowiak for Damaso Marte. Cotts has just lost it this year, but last year was lights out, it isn't a health issue, his contract is relatively cheap, hes young and hes left handed, LOOGYs are incredibly valued, we will defiantly get something of value for him. I agree - because he's a lefty we'll get something.
And small, 1 player deals are Williams' specialty, imo.

socko82
09-09-2006, 09:24 AM
First thing KW should do is call Tampa and tell them to name your price for Carl Crawford. The only guy off limits to them would be McCarthy. If we don't have what they want, I go get it. If we have to overpay to make it happen, we overpay. I also want another speed guy to bat 7th so you can play some Ozzie ball with bottom of the order. I don't think the pitching needs a huge overhaul. One starter goes, Cotts stays. Out of the combo of Cintron/Ozuna/Mac one goes for someone who is a real backup outfielder who can play center.

Tragg
09-09-2006, 09:31 AM
Crawford would be a lot better hitter if he knew the strike zone and had some plate patience.

He hits in the middle of the lineup, so he gets pitched around a lot, and still doesn't take his walks. A .340 OBP is inexcusable for a guy with his skills.
There is no reason for a guy with his skill not to have a .380 OBP. What a leadoff hitter he'd be.

Unfortunately, OBP isn't our strength either...if he doesn't have plate discipline now, I doubt that he learns it on the south side.

Lip Man 1
09-09-2006, 12:53 PM
Cotts doesn't have to be traded. He can be sent down to Charlotte until he gets his act together next season. There should be no 'guarantees' that he makes the roster unless he pitches well, regardless of what he's done in the past.

Lip

miker
09-09-2006, 04:21 PM
Normally I don't start or participate in these type threads but more and more over the past few weeks I've tried to put myself in Kenny Williams' shoes...

But here's my list of the guys that I think Kenny will be "trying" to move in various scenarios or will wind up letting go. These are guys currently on the big league roster right now:
The recent struggles and the threat off falling out of contention had me going down this road as well, but I avoided mentioning it because...well this can be a nasty place when the Sox aren't playing well.

As for these players:

Neal Cotts - not sure. One fair-to-poor year may not indicate a trend, but I don't know if the organization has as much faith in him now as they did last year
Freddy Garcia - he has had some gutsy performances, but he is aging and his stock is falling. Time to go. I'll miss you Freddy.
Dustin Hermanson - the back injury will lead to retirement
Javier Vazquez - I gave Garland the time to develop, so why don't I feel the same about Vasquez? No one even knows what would happen if he stayed with one team two years in a row! Once again, I'm not sure what to do with him
Sandy Alomar Jr. - retired, until the Sox call him on the golf course next August
Alex Cintron - keep, great off bench and will start at second or short if Iguchi or Uribe move
Ross Gload - the Rodney Dangerfield of this team, I'd keep him
Tadahito Iguchi - I'm torn on Tadahito, sometimes he looks great, sometimes he looks lost...but then we are all like that
Juan Uribe - Jose V. with a faster and more accurate gun, I'm not sure about him either
Scott Posednik - disappointed, but not surprised looking at his brief career numbers. A team with our 3-4-5 needs runners and he has not provided it. His fielding drop off makes me yearn for Carlos Lee. I say move, but not sure what we would get.
Rob Mackowiak - stays, one of most useful players in the leagueThat's what I'm thinking, for what its worth.

A. Cavatica
09-09-2006, 05:13 PM
Two more cents on Cotts: I think he's more than a LOOGY. He was highly thought of as a starter in the minors, though he seldom went more than 6. When he's effective he should be used for 1-3 innings at a time.

kitekrazy
09-09-2006, 08:17 PM
$9 million isn't a gamble at all when you have stiffs like Loaiza and Byrd getting paid around $7 mil per year. Even if Mark's poor performance this year continues into next year, $9 mil is still a bargain in comparison to all the money a guy like Zito is going to command in FA.

Great point! Why would you trade your most successful pitcher? He averages about 15 wins a year.

If you get rid of him, you better find the same value. Or do you comtinue to try to out club everyone?

kitekrazy
09-09-2006, 08:24 PM
Getting stat hungry power hitters is the LAST THING this team needs.

There are a lot of Sox fans who can't see beyond station to station baseball.