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emalit1
09-04-2006, 02:25 AM
Does anyone have any opinions as to why buehrle and garcia are both having their worst years besides that they're 'tired'? Why hasnt Don Cooper fixed this team's blatent pitching problems? Our bullpen has got to be one of the most inconsistant in the league as well.

soxinem1
09-04-2006, 07:07 AM
It is a case of Cooper geting too much credit last year, and not enough this year, if you ask me.

It ultimately comes down to the performance of the players.

greenpeach
09-04-2006, 07:33 AM
Ultimately the fate of this team rests with the pitching staff, mainly the starters. If Garcia & Contreras don't get things turnaround in a hurry, we're going to end up wasting the most potent lineup in major league baseball this year.

MadetoOrta
09-04-2006, 08:32 AM
OUr pitchers - particularly Garcia and Buehrle - are location pitchers not power pitchers. These guys rely on their defense. We've played all year with mediocre to horrible OF defense. We've lost at least 5-10 games because of that. Again, I don't blame Mack for going out and giving his best effort, I blame Guillen for not seeing the error of his ways. Bad defense behind them makes pitchers aim, which causes walks which causes big innings.

Feel free to insert the "beating the dead horse" picture. I too agree that Coop got way too much credit last year. He's a great coach though. I don't blame Coop.

southside rocks
09-04-2006, 10:23 AM
Clearly, Cooper should be fired ASAP. Maybe Larry Rothchild could split his time between the two Chicago baseball clubs. That would fix everything right up!

I bet this is even more frustrating for Don Cooper than it is for the fans watching. There are so many 'whys' of pitching that seem to have no answers. Another possibility is that one or more of the starters is hurt, and we don't know about it, as was the case with Garland early on.

I too think that Coop got lots of credit last year for the performance of the starting rotation when it was probably just a bunch of guys having career years simultaneously. It's hard to imagine Garcia, in particular, having another year as good as '05. Garland, yes. Contreras, yes. Buehrle, yes -- but not this year. Vazquez -- who the heck knows??

Frankly Missing
09-04-2006, 10:56 AM
Vazquez is no better or worse than he has been his entire career.

KW or Ozzie or both fell in man love with him a few years ago in Yankee stadium when he shut down the White Sox.

KW figured he could bring him here and Cooper could bring out the best in him.

He gambled and lost this one.

slavko
09-04-2006, 11:11 AM
And you thought the "Teflon Don's" last name was Gotti.

digdagdug23
09-04-2006, 11:14 AM
Vazquez is no better or worse than he has been his entire career.

KW or Ozzie or both fell in man love with him a few years ago in Yankee stadium when he shut down the White Sox.

KW figured he could bring him here and Cooper could bring out the best in him.

He gambled and lost this one.

:roflmao: Make no mistake, I am not laughing with you, I am laughing AT you.

Frankly Missing
09-04-2006, 11:50 AM
:roflmao: Make no mistake, I am not laughing with you, I am laughing AT you.

Make no mistake, your pompousness is showing.

digdagdug23
09-04-2006, 12:12 PM
Make no mistake, your pompousness is showing.

I would like someone to explain to me how laughing at a particularily insane statement is being pompous. Just for an example, Vazquez may or may not have panned out the way they expected, the results of the entire season would be the measuring stick, not games you pick and choose at free will. Let's just go for example on pitchers who are brought in to finish the game for Javie.

Example, Javie pitches August 31st, against Tampa. Pitches 6 innings, and we bring in the wonder-boy Cotts. Until the point Vazquez left the game, 7 hits, 2 ER, how is this a 'bad' outing? August 25th I don't think it was an altogether bad outing, either. Given his previous track record of imploding, I guess I can see why they did what they did with him, but I am not altogher sure that Vazquez could have done any worse than Cotts, or the rest he gave the game away. And then you look at August 5th, where I feel he did what he is fully capable of, and went 8 innings, and looked to be turning a corner. You have to remember, in the collective scheme of things, Coop is trying with this kid, and it is showing. You can not change a pitchers mechanics and expect a change to be in full effect directly following. To bail on him now would be foolish. Would we any better off without him, or rather, having the trade back? Doubtful. Hernandez is 9-9 with an ERA of 5.29, which is higher than Javie's. Look at his numbers, I don't know that he would have been netter for us, or not.

Seems to me that some of Javie's problems are beginning to work themselves out, and whether we won or lost this one remians to be seen.

caulfield12
09-04-2006, 12:18 PM
I would like someone to explain to me how laughing at a particularily insane statement is being pompous. Just for an example, Vazquez may or may not have panned out the way they expected, the results of the entire season would be the measuring stick, not games you pick and choose at free will. Let's just go for example on pitchers who are brought in to finish the game for Javie.

Example, Javie pitches August 31st, against Tampa. Pitches 6 innings, and we bring in the wonder-boy Cotts. Until the point Vazquez left the game, 7 hits, 2 ER, how is this a 'bad' outing? August 25th I don't think it was an altogether bad outing, either. Given his previous track record of imploding, I guess I can see why they did what they did with him, but I am not altogher sure that Vazquez could have done any worse than Cotts, or the rest he gave the game away. And then you look at August 5th, where I feel he did what he is fully capable of, and went 8 innings, and looked to be turning a corner. You have to remember, in the collective scheme of things, Coop is trying with this kid, and it is showing. You can not change a pitchers mechanics and expect a change to be in full effect directly following. To bail on him now would be foolish. Would we any better off without him, or rather, having the trade back? Doubtful. Hernandez is 9-9 with an ERA of 5.29, which is higher than Javie's. Look at his numbers, I don't know that he would have been netter for us, or not.

Seems to me that some of Javie's problems are beginning to work themselves out, and whether we won or lost this one remians to be seen.

Unfortunately, this trade will be measured more by Chris Young's performance than what Vazquez does.

Frankly Missing
09-04-2006, 01:46 PM
I would like someone to explain to me how laughing at a particularily insane statement is being pompous. Just for an example, Vazquez may or may not have panned out the way they expected, the results of the entire season would be the measuring stick, not games you pick and choose at free will. Let's just go for example on pitchers who are brought in to finish the game for Javie.

Example, Javie pitches August 31st, against Tampa. Pitches 6 innings, and we bring in the wonder-boy Cotts. Until the point Vazquez left the game, 7 hits, 2 ER, how is this a 'bad' outing? August 25th I don't think it was an altogether bad outing, either. Given his previous track record of imploding, I guess I can see why they did what they did with him, but I am not altogher sure that Vazquez could have done any worse than Cotts, or the rest he gave the game away. And then you look at August 5th, where I feel he did what he is fully capable of, and went 8 innings, and looked to be turning a corner. You have to remember, in the collective scheme of things, Coop is trying with this kid, and it is showing. You can not change a pitchers mechanics and expect a change to be in full effect directly following. To bail on him now would be foolish. Would we any better off without him, or rather, having the trade back? Doubtful. Hernandez is 9-9 with an ERA of 5.29, which is higher than Javie's. Look at his numbers, I don't know that he would have been netter for us, or not.

Seems to me that some of Javie's problems are beginning to work themselves out, and whether we won or lost this one remians to be seen.

I fail to see how my statement about Vazquez being no better or worse than he has been his entire career is insane.

Check the stats, he remains inconsistent. Occasional flashes of greatness and will get you 10-14 wins per season. Pretty good by most standards.

As far as your statement regarding "Coop working with this kid". Vazquez is no kid in MLB years. This is his 9th year in the bigs.

I have to believe the organization was looking to improve his numbers overall, given the top prospect they traded away for him.

digdagdug23
09-04-2006, 02:03 PM
I fail to see how my statement about Vazquez being no better or worse than he has been his entire career is insane.

Check the stats, he remains inconsistent. Occasional flashes of greatness and will get you 10-14 wins per season. Pretty good by most standards.

As far as your statement regarding "Coop working with this kid". Vazquez is no kid in MLB years. This is his 9th year in the bigs.

I have to believe the organization was looking to improve his numbers overall, given the top prospect they traded away for him.

Hardly a 'top' prospect they traded for him, and Vazquez did the majority of his pitching careeer in the NL, yuge difference. You did not say for better or worse as your defining statement, you made reference to a love for the guy, and they gambled and lost on him. I am simly stating that you can not make this presumption without first examining all evidence, not just what you choose to look in to. For a NUMBER FIVE pitcher, he is doing pretty much what he is supposed to be doing. We were just altogether spoiled with what our starting 5 did last year. Javie's numbers are better than El Duque's, whether you look stat for stat, game to game, or month to month. Not at El Duque's numbers for last year, mind you, this year.

Frankly Missing
09-04-2006, 02:14 PM
Hardly a 'top' prospect they traded for him

Does the name Chris Young ring any bells for you?

StockdaleForVeep
09-04-2006, 02:18 PM
Does anyone have any opinions as to why buehrle and garcia are both having their worst years besides that they're 'tired'? Why hasnt Don Cooper fixed this team's blatent pitching problems? Our bullpen has got to be one of the most inconsistant in the league as well.

Cooper has said time and time again being tired is not the issue and an excuse. He is right, that excuse does not work, why is no other player who played in the classic tired? Why is roy oswalt or any of the astro's tired at the moment, specif oswalt since he is a power pitcher.
Garland apparently isnt tired, and he was givin that excuse towards the middle of the season after some bad starts

Paulwny
09-04-2006, 02:48 PM
Cooper has said time and time again being tired is not the issue and an excuse. He is right, that excuse does not work, why is no other player who played in the classic tired? Why is roy oswalt or any of the astro's tired at the moment, specif oswalt since he is a power pitcher.
Garland apparently isnt tired, and he was givin that excuse towards the middle of the season after some bad starts

If they think their tired, then they become tired physically. ( wow I threw a lot of innings last year, I should be tired)
I've heard that Mussins keeps his own tab on his pitch count, claims he tires at the 100 pitch count. Is it physical or mental ?

caulfield12
09-04-2006, 02:57 PM
If they think their tired, then they become tired physically. ( wow I threw a lot of innings last year, I should be tired)
I've heard that Mussins keeps his own tab on his pitch count, claims he tires at the 100 pitch count. Is it physical or mental ?

He went to Stanford. He's probably smarter than every GM in the game. He does the NY Times Crossword with a pen. Don't mess with the guy.

Paulwny
09-04-2006, 03:01 PM
He went to Stanford. He's probably smarter than every GM in the game. He does the NY Times Crossword with a pen. Don't mess with the guy.

Yea, I know, Michael Kay keeps reminding everyone that Mussina does crosswords in pen, but the guys a wimp , Torre and some players had to give him a personal tour of NY and the surrounding area prior to his signing. He was afraid of NY and the fans.

caulfield12
09-04-2006, 03:03 PM
Yea, I know, Michael Kay keeps reminding everyone that Mussina does crosswords in pen, but the guys a wimp , Torre and some players had to give him a personal tour of NY and the surrounding area prior to his signing. He was afraid of NY and the fans.

He was probably influenced by that bastion of insight, John Rocker.

soxinem1
09-04-2006, 06:39 PM
Unfortunately, this trade will be measured more by Chris Young's performance than what Vazquez does.

This will be the key to this trade when all is said and done, unless Vasquez by some miracle wins the White Sox last post-season game this year.