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View Full Version : Another reason to hate the Cubs. A little history here.


RedPinStripes
02-25-2002, 05:55 AM
I was watching a special on the 1919 Black Sox and found a few new details i never knew.

For one, teams and players were dropping games for the mob for years before the Sox did.

Sox scandle was basically a nation wide bet that everyone knew about. Chicago news papaers kept this hush hush until december of 1919. They were afraid of law suites from the White Sox and MLB. The subject was dying off and the media and authorities were starting to lay off the Sox until May of the 1920 season. Word got back to Cubs owner Bill Veeck Sr.,yes , the father of the former White Sox owner. That the Cubs were going to throw a game vs. the Phillies that afternoon. Veeck took immediate action and this brought out the whole scandle again on the Sox.

Now I understand why some people are very much against changing Comiskey parks' name to Veeck Field. Bill Veeck was natrully a cub lover as he grew up around the Cubs with his father and spent his last days at Wrigley field. And the Cubs were the damn team that brought this out in the open again. Well, they proobably would have been busted anyway. It was the biggest known baseball scandle of all time. Why not blame the Cubs?

This is what I gathered from ESPN classic sports last night from black Sox and baseball historians. Pretty ineresting huh?

MarqSox
02-25-2002, 09:35 AM
C'mon Red, I know you wanna dis the Cubs... but don't you think blaming the Cubs for the White Sox throwing the series is a bit of a stretch? Let's set blame where blame is due -- six Sox players cheated in the biggest sporting event of the era. Now Buck and Joe, that's another story...

Cubbiesuck13
02-25-2002, 09:42 AM
The Joe and Buck thing piss me off to no end. How can you expect players to tattle on other players when(back then) all the players were gettin raped by the system. Sadly now its the fans who get raped by the system. :shoeless

CubKilla
02-25-2002, 09:43 AM
I was watching that too. I found it VERY interesting since one of the Cub fan comebacks is, "At least we didn't throw a WS like you guys." I usually counter with, "First you have to make it to the WS before you can throw it." But the fact that ESPN (I assume you were watching ESPN CLASSIC) pointed out that baseball teams nationwide before 1919 and a few after were throwing baseball games wasn't surprising to me. I heard alot of ballplayers from that era had other jobs because baseball owners were notoriously cheap and throwing games was very lucrative. Where the 1919 Sox screwed up was that it was OBVIOUS they were throwing the games. It didn't help that it was the World Series either.

RedPinStripes
02-25-2002, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
C'mon Red, I know you wanna dis the Cubs... but don't you think blaming the Cubs for the White Sox throwing the series is a bit of a stretch? Let's set blame where blame is due -- six Sox players cheated in the biggest sporting event of the era. Now Buck and Joe, that's another story...

That's just a little added anger toward the cubs. Yeah, it was the Sox who blew it. The point i was making was this was staying quiet until the cubs got busted. And you can't disagree about Bill Veeck.

Nellie_Fox
02-25-2002, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by CubsF'nBlow
I heard alot of ballplayers from that era had other jobs because baseball owners were notoriously cheap and throwing games was very lucrative.
With the exception of the top stars, players were still working off-season jobs in the sixties because they didn't make enough money to support their families. Most of them got pretty cushy PR type jobs with beer distributors or similar jobs, but they really needed the money. I remember Sherm Lollar living only a few blocks from me in a very blue-collar neighborhood of La Grange Park.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-25-2002, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
With the exception of the top stars, players were still working off-season jobs in the sixties because they didn't make enough money to support their families. Most of them got pretty cushy PR type jobs with beer distributors or similar jobs, but they really needed the money. I remember Sherm Lollar living only a few blocks from me in a very blue-collar neighborhood of La Grange Park.

This is very true. Go to the floating navigation bar at left, and click on the "Fun & Games" link. There is a feature there called "Hometowns of the Sox" you will find very interesting. Even through the 60's, most ballplayers lived in very average middle-class suburbs.

Compared to some of the neighborhoods I've got listed, La Grange Park would be positively "uppity"!

:)

Cheryl
02-25-2002, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


That's just a little added anger toward the cubs. Yeah, it was the Sox who blew it. The point i was making was this was staying quiet until the cubs got busted. And you can't disagree about Bill Veeck.

If you mean William Veeck Sr, he did what he or any other baseball executive should have done by calling out Comiskey. Joe Jackson had already tried to tell Comiskey what was going on, and the Old Roman was busy trying to cover it up. Veeck let him know the cover up wasn't going to work, that people outside the Sox organization knew about the fix.

RedPinStripes
02-25-2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Cheryl


If you mean William Veeck Sr, he did what he or any other baseball executive should have done by calling out Comiskey. Joe Jackson had already tried to tell Comiskey what was going on, and the Old Roman was busy trying to cover it up. Veeck let him know the cover up wasn't going to work, that people outside the Sox organization knew about the fix.

I'm noy against Veeck SR. I am against Veeck jr having his name replacing comiskey's name on the park because he was really a cub lover and spent his last days there at wrigley.

moochpuppy
02-25-2002, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
-- six Sox players cheated in the biggest sporting event of the era.

Come on Marq, you should know your Sox history better than that. These six players "allegedly" cheated....they were all found innocent by a court of law afterall. :smile:

RedPinStripes
02-25-2002, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by moochpuppy


Come on Marq, you should know your Sox history better than that. These six players "allegedly" cheated....they were all found innocent by a court of law afterall. :smile:

Yup. and then baseball puts their great minds together and banns them all. Yeah, it sure helped baseball by banning one of the greatese competitors and hitters ever. Pete Rose should be in the Hall of fame. I don't care what he did. You can't take away what he did in his careeer.

Cheryl
02-25-2002, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


I'm noy against Veeck SR. I am against Veeck jr having his name replacing comiskey's name on the park because he was really a cub lover and spent his last days there at wrigley.

If you've ever read Veeck as in Wreck you would know that yeah, the guy grew up a Cub fan. After the way he was treated by current Sox management, he went back to the team with which he grew up. Big deal.

RedPinStripes
02-25-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl


If you've ever read Veeck as in Wreck you would know that yeah, the guy grew up a Cub fan. After the way he was treated by current Sox management, he went back to the team with which he grew up. Big deal.

I still wouldn't want his name on the front of that park.

Cheryl
02-25-2002, 12:24 PM
Neither would I.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-25-2002, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
Come on Marq, you should know your Sox history better than that. These six players "allegedly" cheated....they were all found innocent by a court of law afterall. :smile:

The Black Sox were found "not guilty", not "innocent". Big difference.

None of the ballplayers were ever convicted of anything. Gambling was rampant in baseball before 1921, there were innummerable fixes between gamblers and ballplayers, and the Black Sox were not the first ballplayers to ever be banned from the game.

Veeck's father worked for the Wrigleys most of his adult life. Veeck, Jr. worked their, too, but left to buy his own ballclub. He started with the minor league Milwaukee Brewers, but later owned the Cleveland Indians, St. Louis Browns, and Chicago White Sox (twice).

Was Veeck, Jr. a Sox or Cubs fan? Given the way he sold out the fans of the Browns (and nearly the Sox, too), I would say his first allegiance was to his own wallet. However, it wasn't until 1981 that his affection for the White Sox ever cooled.

:reinsy
"And we all know who took control of the club that year!"

moochpuppy
02-25-2002, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


The Black Sox were found "not guilty", not "innocent". Big difference.



There actually is very little if any difference PHG.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/thesaurus

One entry found for innocent.


Entry Word: innocent
Function: adjective
Text: 1
Synonyms GOOD 11, blameless, exemplary, guiltless, inculpable, irreproachable, pure, righteous, unblam-able, virtuous
Related Word unstained, unsullied, white, white-handed
2 free from legal guilt or fault <the defendant was found innocent>
Synonyms blameless, clean, crimeless, faultless, guiltless, inculpable, unguilty
Idioms in the clear

PaleHoseGeorge
02-25-2002, 12:43 PM
Nice job, mooch. Now do a search for "burden of proof". You might find that one enlightening.

:smile:

Nellie_Fox
02-25-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy


There actually is very little if any difference PHG.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/thesaurus

One entry found for innocent.



Not Guilty is a legal concept, meaning the state failed to prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Innocent means you didn't do it. Courts never find you innocent, they find you not guilty.

moochpuppy
02-25-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Nice job, mooch. Now do a search for "burden of proof". You might find that one enlightening.

:smile:

It wasn't the Sox players fault that the prosecution couldn't provide evidence against them.

moochpuppy
02-25-2002, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox

Not Guilty is a legal concept, meaning the state failed to prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Innocent means you didn't do it. Courts never find you innocent, they find you not guilty.

Innocent = guiltless = not guilty

What's that our Constituton states?......."Innocent until proven guilty."

:smile:

bjmarte
02-25-2002, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy


Innocent = guiltless = not guilty

What's that our Constituton states?......."Innocent until proven guilty."

:smile:

You are talking semantics, not reality. You either did it or you didn't. If you didn't do it then you are innocent, if you did then you are not. That has nothing to do with whether or not there is enought evidence to prove it in a court.

RedPinStripes
02-25-2002, 01:50 PM
:millslane
"Order in the court!!!!!"

AsInWreck
02-25-2002, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
The Joe and Buck thing piss me off to no end. How can you expect players to tattle on other players when(back then) all the players were gettin raped by the system. Sadly now its the fans who get raped by the system. :shoeless

The truth about corporate America: someone must get raped.

foulkesfan11
02-25-2002, 08:28 PM
Anyway you look at it, the Cubs blow!

:kelly