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RichH55
02-25-2002, 04:59 AM
TUCSON, Ariz. - Bob Howry heard the news over the winter that the Dodgers were interested in making him their closer.

So when a report surfaced in the Los Angeles Times on Sunday that Los Angeles turned down a deal that would've sent him to the Dodgers in exchange for right-handed starter Eric Gagne, Howry simply shrugged.

"I'm here until I'm not here," he said. "I'm not going to worry about it."

White Sox general manager Ken Williams confirmed Dodgers general manager Dan Evans had asked about Howry but said Gagne's name was not mentioned in the informal trade talks.

Williams expects Howry's fastball to return to normal now that he is two seasons removed from shoulder surgery and feels he's too valuable to give up for an unproven pitcher.

"I'm not going to make any move unless I feel it would make us a better team," Williams said. "I like the guys we have."

Williams was referring to the trio of pitchers competing for the No. 5 spot in the rotationóDan Wright, Lorenzo Barcelo and Gary Glover. Gagne is vying with Omar Daal and former Braves pitcher Odalis Perez for the fifth spot in the Dodgers' rotation, after going 6-7 with a 4.75 earned-run average in 33 games last year.

If Gagne doesn't win the opening, he'll probably head back to the bullpen since he's out of options and would have to clear waivers before being sent to the minors.

Howry posted a 4.69 ERA last year, more than 11/2 runs higher than his 3.17 ERA of 2000.

Frankly speaking: Frank Thomas is concentrating on taking the ball to the opposite field in the early going this spring but plans to open up his stance once he gets his timing down. He hasn't looked too impressive during his live batting practice sessions, but he's not alone. Manager Jerry Manuel said the pitchers are very much ahead of the hitters at this point.

"The first day, it looks like they're throwing 700 m.p.h.," Manuel said. "But Frank's a unique hitter. He has great bat control and the best eye I've ever seen. He's somewhat unorthodox, but he gets it done."

Crede watch: Joe Crede has been the "third baseman of the future" since Robin Ventura was still around, but it doesn't appear his future with the Sox is imminent.

"He's going to get a chance to play a lot [this spring]," Manuel said. "Obviously, I think he has an idea of what his situation is. It doesn't have to be explained. He'll get an opportunity to play, and that's what every young player wants."

Crede, who turns 24 in April, was called up to the Sox last September but received only 20 at-bats in the final month.

Copyright 2002 The Chicago Tribune

RedPinStripes
02-25-2002, 07:04 AM
Since we're stuck with Howry, I hope that heater comes back.

Why is Crede even going to get ab's? It don' matter anyway. He probably not going to make the team. If he does, he'll get less ab's then Tony G.

What's wrong with Trading Clayton for a player to be born later and have Liefer and Crede platoon with Tony G. there vs. lefties if Crede can't handle it offensivly? Naaaaaaaaa... That would make too much sense.


:crede
"I am nothing but a red headed stepchild"

duke of dorwood
02-25-2002, 09:37 AM
It must be hard to trade the entire Clayton Island. Maybe it can be auctioned off in parcels. Whatever it takes, they gotta get it done.

foulkesfan11
02-25-2002, 09:20 PM
Howry is a big choke artist! He's a nice guy, but nice guys don't bring home championships!

TRADE HIM!

:kelly

bc2k
02-25-2002, 10:19 PM
I think the sig says it all...

RichH55
02-26-2002, 02:45 AM
I'm in favor of dealing Howry if you can get something, bu I don't think he is straight addition by subtraction material...I think if it weren't for the big year Frank is going to have that Howry could be in the running for Comeback White Sox of the year

RedPinStripes
02-26-2002, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I think the sig says it all...

You have a valid point there. Keep up the good work.

Foulke You
02-26-2002, 05:19 PM
I think you guys are forgetting how effective Howry was in '99 and in 2000 Howry and Foulke were lights out for the opposition. Howry had an off year because he was still recovering from surgery. On Score AM670 he said he feels 100% again. He also said that he just didn't have the arm strength to get that 96mph pitch that he had in previous years but he expects to get that back this year as it often takes a year to fully recover from the surgery he had. Don't be a "what have you done for me lately" fan. Give Howry a chance. I think he'll impress again. Besides, why do we need Gagne? A Dodgers starting rotation reject will not help us as much as a healthy 95mph heater from Howry will.

:walk
I'll be back!

bjmarte
02-26-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I think you guys are forgetting how effective Howry was in '99 and in 2000 Howry and Foulke were lights out for the opposition. Howry had an off year because he was still recovering from surgery. On Score AM670 he said he feels 100% again. He also said that he just didn't have the arm strength to get that 96mph pitch that he had in previous years but he expects to get that back this year as it often takes a year to fully recover from the surgery he had. Don't be a "what have you done for me lately" fan. Give Howry a chance. I think he'll impress again. Besides, why do we need Gagne? A Dodgers starting rotation reject will not help us as much as a healthy 95mph heater from Howry will.

:walk
I'll be back!

Hmm, I have to agree. I've been pretty silent on this because I am somewhat of a closet Howry fan. I think he will rebound this year. I am not saying he is the second coming but I think he will be back to 2000 form which was pretty decent IMO.

foulkesfan11
02-26-2002, 05:34 PM
Every time I give HOwry a second, third or even fourth chance to redeem himself in my book, he chokes!

guillen4life13
02-26-2002, 05:45 PM
My brother told me about a game in 2000 against the yankees where he completely fooled paul o'neill and got o'neill really pissed off cuz howry was too good for him.

really, give the man a chance. he's come off an injury, and according to him, he's 100%. if he flops this coming season, then rip him all you want, because i'll be ripping him even more probably.

FarWestChicago
02-26-2002, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I think you guys are forgetting how effective Howry was in '99 and in 2000Actually, Howry got the name for his tag based on the 2000 season. In 2001 he was mostly known as Gascan and Howling. In 200 he was known as Bob "I've never met a man I couldn't walk" Howry.

RedPinStripes
02-26-2002, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Actually, Howry got the name for his tag based on the 2000 season. In 2001 he was mostly known as Gascan and Howling. In 200 he was known as Bob "I've never met a man I couldn't walk" Howry.

He was pretty good at throwing balls in the dirt that Josh had no chance of blocking with runners on base in the 8th inning. :angry:

ode to veeck
02-26-2002, 08:30 PM
any ball in the dirt is one Josh has no chance of blocking :D:

bc2k
02-27-2002, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I think you guys are forgetting how effective Howry was in '99 and in 2000 Howry and Foulke were lights out for the opposition. Howry had an off year because he was still recovering from surgery. On Score AM670 he said he feels 100% again. He also said that he just didn't have the arm strength to get that 96mph pitch that he had in previous years but he expects to get that back this year as it often takes a year to fully recover from the surgery he had. Don't be a "what have you done for me lately" fan. Give Howry a chance. I think he'll impress again. Besides, why do we need Gagne? A Dodgers starting rotation reject will not help us as much as a healthy 95mph heater from Howry will.

:walk
I'll be back!

In the case of Howry I am not one of those, "what have you done for me lately" fans. I didn't see Howry pitch in 1999 because i didn't watch many games. I did see enough of him in 2000 and 2001 to form an opinion on him. I do not think Howry will become a dependable pitcher in 2002 because he is frankly not good. The surgery, imo, had little to do with his 2001 performance. I wish he never had surgery so he couldn't use it as a cop-out for his piss-poor 2001.

Regaining his 96/96 mph fastball will not help Howry or the sox. I say this because it is not the speed of the ball but the movement on it. Look at Juan Cruz of the Cubs. Man his balls dance. Howry is sick one-dimensional. Straight fastballs without an off-speed pitch.

Howry gets a lot of junk time that helps his era. Anytime he enters the game in a tough situation, he stinks up the place. It got to a point last season where I thought JM kept putting out Howry in tough situations and watching him fail as a way of telling KW that if we are to win next year [2002] Howry cannot be on the team. Howry is ridiculous. I think the question should not be, "What have you done for me lately" but, "What will you do for me next year?"

czalgosz
02-27-2002, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by bc2k




Howry gets a lot of junk time that helps his era. Anytime he enters the game in a tough situation, he stinks up the place. It got to a point last season where I thought JM kept putting out Howry in tough situations and watching him fail as a way of telling KW that if we are to win next year [2002] Howry cannot be on the team. Howry is ridiculous. I think the question should not be, "What have you done for me lately" but, "What will you do for me next year?"

In 2001, batters had an .822 OPS with runners on (.905 w/ RISP) against Howry, which is not good. But in 2000, they had a .597 OPS (.638 w/ RISP) which is outstanding.

Howry was a very good reliever in 2000 who would have been closer on most teams. I do think he'll bounce back and have a good season.

That said, I would still trade him for Eric Gagne - Gagne is going to be very good, IMO.

Konerkofan
02-27-2002, 12:12 PM
I like Howry, he is a great person, but he has made some costly mistakes....

Foulke You
02-27-2002, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by bc2k


In the case of Howry I am not one of those, "what have you done for me lately" fans. I didn't see Howry pitch in 1999 because i didn't watch many games. I did see enough of him in 2000 and 2001 to form an opinion on him. I do not think Howry will become a dependable pitcher in 2002 because he is frankly not good. The surgery, imo, had little to do with his 2001 performance. I wish he never had surgery so he couldn't use it as a cop-out for his piss-poor 2001.

Regaining his 96/96 mph fastball will not help Howry or the sox. I say this because it is not the speed of the ball but the movement on it. Look at Juan Cruz of the Cubs. Man his balls dance. Howry is sick one-dimensional. Straight fastballs without an off-speed pitch.

Howry gets a lot of junk time that helps his era. Anytime he enters the game in a tough situation, he stinks up the place. It got to a point last season where I thought JM kept putting out Howry in tough situations and watching him fail as a way of telling KW that if we are to win next year [2002] Howry cannot be on the team. Howry is ridiculous. I think the question should not be, "What have you done for me lately" but, "What will you do for me next year?"


I am in disagreement with some of your comments bc2k. How can you say that regaining his 96mph fastball will not help Howry? There is a huge difference between throwing 92 and 96. You can get away with not having movement on your ball if you throw in the upper '90s. That extra 4 mph can be the difference between a guy swinging and missing or tagging it into the seats. Any MLB scout will tell you that 96 mph is above average for a fastball in today's game. Plus, Howry's fastball exploded in the zone in 2000 and especially in '99. In 2001 it had little life on it and was little more than a 92 mph meatball that was screaming "HIT ME!" Getting that explosive fastball back will help Howry regain his past form.

Howry is not 1 dimensional. He does have a 2nd pitch and that is a slider. He throws it quite well at about 86 to 87 mph. His best pitch is his fastball but his slider has been effective at keeping hitters off balance. Foulke tried to show him a change up last year with little luck. Howry stated in that AM670 interview that he's given up learning a changeup and will go back to his fastball/slider mentality which is fine for a setup man.

I also dispute the comment that Howry only gets "junktime". In '99 he was our closer and Foulke was setup man. He also performed quite well as our closer. In 2000 he was the main setup man to get to Keith Foulke. The bullpen was arguably one of the main strengths of the 2000 team and Howry was a big part of that. He would often pitch the 7th and 8th innings in close games to get to Foulke in the 9th or 10th in some cases. If the 8th inning is "junk time" then I don't know what quality time is. Manuel kept going to Howry in 2001 because he had nobody else to go to because everyone was hurt. Who would you go to, Embree? Pulsipher? I think I would've taken my chances with a less than 100% Howry too. OK, I've argued Howry's case enough and I'll get off my soapbox now.

RichH55
02-27-2002, 03:52 PM
Essentially Howry was not himself last year...where 2001 was an anamoly is a good question.....this year is the year we can expect him to regain top form, or at least as good a form as we can expect....if he gets hit this year he is done as a viable major leaguer IMO

bc2k
02-28-2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Foulke You



I am in disagreement with some of your comments bc2k. How can you say that regaining his 96mph fastball will not help Howry? There is a huge difference between throwing 92 and 96. You can get away with not having movement on your ball if you throw in the upper '90s. That extra 4 mph can be the difference between a guy swinging and missing or tagging it into the seats. Any MLB scout will tell you that 96 mph is above average for a fastball in today's game. Plus, Howry's fastball exploded in the zone in 2000 and especially in '99. In 2001 it had little life on it and was little more than a 92 mph meatball that was screaming "HIT ME!" Getting that explosive fastball back will help Howry regain his past form.

Howry is not 1 dimensional. He does have a 2nd pitch and that is a slider. He throws it quite well at about 86 to 87 mph. His best pitch is his fastball but his slider has been effective at keeping hitters off balance. Foulke tried to show him a change up last year with little luck. Howry stated in that AM670 interview that he's given up learning a changeup and will go back to his fastball/slider mentality which is fine for a setup man.

I also dispute the comment that Howry only gets "junktime". In '99 he was our closer and Foulke was setup man. He also performed quite well as our closer. In 2000 he was the main setup man to get to Keith Foulke. The bullpen was arguably one of the main strengths of the 2000 team and Howry was a big part of that. He would often pitch the 7th and 8th innings in close games to get to Foulke in the 9th or 10th in some cases. If the 8th inning is "junk time" then I don't know what quality time is. Manuel kept going to Howry in 2001 because he had nobody else to go to because everyone was hurt. Who would you go to, Embree? Pulsipher? I think I would've taken my chances with a less than 100% Howry too. OK, I've argued Howry's case enough and I'll get off my soapbox now.

First, thank you for choosing to diagree with me and tell me why, and not call me names without rebuting. :smile:

Like I said I didn't see enough games to form an opinion on Howry's 1999 season so I will take your word that he was a quality pitcher. The opinions I have on him were formed in the past two seasons.

I'm sure regaining 4 mph on his fastball will help him, I'm just saying I would rather see him with the 92 heater and since he can't put movement on it, throw a changeup. If Keith Foulke was teaching me how to throw a change, I am sure going to listen and work with him as much as possible.

By "junktime" I meant when the game was out of hand and also how he screws other pitchers on the sox by getting lit up and charging the other pitchers with those runs. (I would give anything to see a stat on that)." (Inherited runners stat)?

You have another point with JM's options in the bullpen, but I would have like to have seen Kipper in that situation a little more often.

I respect your opinions, and look forward to talk about Howry come April-or March for that matter.

RichH55
02-28-2002, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


First, thank you for choosing to diagree with me and tell me why, and not call me names without rebuting. :smile:

Like I said I didn't see enough games to form an opinion on Howry's 1999 season so I will take your word that he was a quality pitcher. The opinions I have on him were formed in the past two seasons.

I'm sure regaining 4 mph on his fastball will help him, I'm just saying I would rather see him with the 92 heater and since he can't put movement on it, throw a changeup. If Keith Foulke was teaching me how to throw a change, I am sure going to listen and work with him as much as possible.

By "junktime" I meant when the game was out of hand and also how he screws other pitchers on the sox by getting lit up and charging the other pitchers with those runs. (I would give anything to see a stat on that)." (Inherited runners stat)?

You have another point with JM's options in the bullpen, but I would have like to have seen Kipper in that situation a little more often.

I respect your opinions, and look forward to talk about Howry come April-or March for that matter.



I don't think Howry not learning the changeup was due to lack of effort or not listening...some pitchers simply are equipped to throw certain pitches.....this is Howry's year to prove himself...I think he will, when he was on he was a quality reliever...period...I do question your runners on stats, but I would have to look into them more......Howry certainly wasnt great or even good in 2001, 2002 should be a whole different beast or he is done

bjmarte
02-28-2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


First, thank you for choosing to diagree with me and tell me why, and not call me names without rebuting. :smile:


bc2k, if you are trying to figure out why you are sometimes mistreated around here let me help you out. Your posts are often percieved as being completely outrageous in both content and tone. Responses to your posts are often either rude or dismissive because the outrageousness of the original makes people feel as if you are either insincere or just trying to pick a fight.

Until recently I was completely convinced that you were really a cub fan who was posting as a sox fan in order to spam on this board. I have not been completely dissuaded from that opinion.

I am not trying to censor you, I am just trying to point out to you that your posts may be perceived differently than you intend them to be.

bc2k
03-02-2002, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by bjmarte


bc2k, if you are trying to figure out why you are sometimes mistreated around here let me help you out. Your posts are often percieved as being completely outrageous in both content and tone. Responses to your posts are often either rude or dismissive because the outrageousness of the original makes people feel as if you are either insincere or just trying to pick a fight.

Until recently I was completely convinced that you were really a cub fan who was posting as a sox fan in order to spam on this board. I have not been completely dissuaded from that opinion.

I am not trying to censor you, I am just trying to point out to you that your posts may be perceived differently than you intend them to be.

Fair enough bjmarte, point taken. I guess I do come across a little harsh, but that is because I am passionate about the Sox. I often express anger on this boards towards sox players because it hurts me to see them fail. On the other hand, the good Sox players can do no wrong in my book. I put them on pedalstels. Let me assure you I am not a Cubs fan.

doublem23
03-02-2002, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by bjmarte


bc2k, if you are trying to figure out why you are sometimes mistreated around here let me help you out. Your posts are often percieved as being completely outrageous in both content and tone. Responses to your posts are often either rude or dismissive because the outrageousness of the original makes people feel as if you are either insincere or just trying to pick a fight.

Until recently I was completely convinced that you were really a cub fan who was posting as a sox fan in order to spam on this board. I have not been completely dissuaded from that opinion.

I am not trying to censor you, I am just trying to point out to you that your posts may be perceived differently than you intend them to be.

That, and your first couple of posts attacked RPS and other already established and liked posters on the board. And then attacking RPS for spelling Valentin's name wrong and going on to spell Ivan Calderon's name wrong in the same post doesn't help.

bc2k
03-02-2002, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by doublem23


That, and your first couple of posts attacked RPS and other already established and liked posters on the board. And then attacking RPS for spelling Valentin's name wrong and going on to spell Ivan Calderon's name wrong in the same post doesn't help.

Yeah but now I'm a well-liked established quality poster so its cool.

RedPinStripes
03-02-2002, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


Let me assure you I am not a Cubs fan.

Better not be. I'm boozin right now. :gulp:
:beer


:pee :woo-woo

Soxheads
03-02-2002, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by doublem23


That, and your first couple of posts attacked RPS and other already established and liked posters on the board. And then attacking RPS for spelling Valentin's name wrong and going on to spell Ivan Calderon's name wrong in the same post doesn't help.

That must've been when I was gone for a while, because I don't remember this between bc2k and RPS.

RedPinStripes
03-02-2002, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


Yeah but now I'm a well-liked established quality poster so its cool.


:discomoron

RedPinStripes
03-02-2002, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by Soxheads


That must've been when I was gone for a while, because I don't remember this between bc2k and RPS.

It was a doozy.

Daver
03-02-2002, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


Yeah but now I'm a well-liked established quality poster so its cool.

Well liked?Quality poster?

Time will tell.

bc2k
03-02-2002, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by daver


Well liked?Quality poster?

Time will tell.

Are you saying you don't like me, daver?

RedPinStripes
03-02-2002, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


Are you saying you don't like me, daver? I don't think Daver would say that.

Daver
03-02-2002, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


Are you saying you don't like me, daver?

No I'm not,I will say that you did not make a good name for yourself here,but I will not say that I dislike you,I would not bother to respond if I disliked you,suffice it to say we agree to disagree.

bc2k
03-02-2002, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by daver


No I'm not,I will say that you did not make a good name for yourself here,but I will not say that I dislike you,I would not bother to respond if I disliked you,suffice it to say we agree to disagree.

I like Ted Nugent.

Daver
03-02-2002, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


I like Ted Nugent.

Then you are not beyond hopeless.:redneck

voodoochile
03-02-2002, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


I like Ted Nugent.

Oh man, do you feel dirty? Selling out that way...

Your nose is the color of that Elk that daver has in his photo...

Shameless, shameless shameless...

RedPinStripes
03-02-2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Oh man, do you feel dirty? Selling out that way...

Your nose is the color of that Elk that daver has in his photo...

Shameless, shameless shameless...

LOL!


Since we have a few new people, we should let them know why Teal is used so much.

It's means sarcasm. Not that anyone is sarcastic around here.

Jerry_Manuel
03-02-2002, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by daver
Well liked?Quality poster?

Time will tell.

I've been a member at WSI for almost 2 years now, and I'm not a well liked, quality poster. :(:

voodoochile
03-02-2002, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I've been a member at WSI for almost 2 years now, and I'm not a well liked, quality poster. :(:

You seem well liked (despite your desire to be otherwise), but quality?

Please...

:D:

Jerry_Manuel
03-02-2002, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You seem well liked (despite your desire to be otherwise), but quality?

Please...


Good point, VC.

voodoochile
03-02-2002, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Good point, VC.

Now that is a quality post...

All the rest of you take notes - this is the best post in the history of WSI. Feel free to emulate JM and compliment me...

:)

Jerry_Manuel
03-02-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Now that is a quality post...

All the rest of you take notes - this is the best post in the history of WSI. Feel free to emulate JM and compliment me...

:)

See, I am Mr. Quality.

Best post in WSI history? I was thinking more along the lines of message board history.