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View Full Version : Charlie Haeger looked - NASTY


jabrch
09-01-2006, 10:22 PM
He looked NOTHING like the guy who was up here a few months ago. Those three knucklers he threw to Shealey were just unhittable. He could be a big addition to this team down the stretch.

caulfield12
09-01-2006, 10:27 PM
Logan also looked noticeably more controlled and like he belonged this time.

There's no excuse for that six run inning (defensively or JC), but there was something to feel positive about at the end.

Sometimes I feel it would be better to go down like the Bedard game so OG will be forced to make changes like BA permanently in CF, no Cotts, etc.
But I don't think it would matter if we lost 10 in a row...Don Cooper would be saying the same things about Cotts they were saying about Politte.

I really thought Joe would come through....we had our opportunities, Konerko as well. One place where Dye batting third might have backfired, then again, we might never have gotten to bases loaded if he wasn't hitting third.

Nice at-bats by Gload and AJ in the 8th.

Horrible AB by Cintron to end the 8th.

Beautox
09-01-2006, 10:39 PM
I love knuckleballers, and honestly he couldn't be any worse than our maso menos starting pitching this year, if Vazquez/Jose can't turn it around, i wouldn't mind him getting a shot next year and dealing one of the above. The white sox have a proud tradition of knuckle ballers, and we shouldn't stop here, plus hes cheap and durable.

DickAllen72
09-01-2006, 10:42 PM
I love knuckleballers, and honestly he couldn't be any worse than our maso menos starting pitching this year, if Vazquez/Jose can't turn it around, i wouldn't mind him getting a shot next year and dealing one of the above. The white sox have a proud tradition of knuckle ballers, and we shouldn't stop here, plus hes cheap and durable.

I wouldn't mind seeing McCarthy & Haeger replace Garcia and Vazquez in next year's rotation. The Sox should be able to get something of value in return for those two, and save money to spend at other positions as well.

PAPChiSox729
09-01-2006, 10:44 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing McCarthy & Haeger replace Garcia and Vazquez in next year's rotation. The Sox should be able to get something of value in return for those two, and save money to spend at other positions as well.

I would definetly want to see Haeger earn his way into the rotation. A good outing tonight doesn't cut it.

sox1970
09-01-2006, 10:45 PM
How about Haeger starting for Contreras in Boston? Jose is done.

Another option is Tim Redding who threw a complete game 3-hitter for Charlotte tonight.

PAPChiSox729
09-01-2006, 10:47 PM
How about Haeger starting for Contreras in Boston? Jose is done.

Another option is Tim Redding who threw a complete game 3-hitter for Charlotte tonight.

Tim Redding to replace Jose Contreras.

Say it out loud.

It just doesn't make sense, man.

Beautox
09-01-2006, 10:47 PM
i agree it shouldn't be given to him, but he had the 3rd best era(3.07) in the IL he also started the AAA alstar game, most wins14-6, 3rd in IP 170, hes definatly ready if not for the white sox, for someone.

170IP 143H 9HR 78BB 130SO .231AVG

caulfield12
09-01-2006, 10:47 PM
I don't want to see Redding.

I would prefer to go down with someone who is going to be a part of our future, either McCarthy/Haeger/Broadway or maybe Tracey.

If the Twins can send out Bonser, Garza, Baker and Silva, there's no reason we shouldn't be able to do the same. Just because we're paying them $50 million doesn't mean they're guaranteed 35 starts per season.

QCIASOXFAN
09-01-2006, 10:49 PM
How about Haeger starting for Contreras in Boston? Jose is done.

Another option is Tim Redding who threw a complete game 3-hitter for Charlotte tonight.Did you forget your teal sir?

sox1970
09-01-2006, 10:50 PM
Tim Redding to replace Jose Contreras.

Say it out loud.

It just doesn't make sense, man.

On the surface it doesn't, but what the hell has Contreras done the last 4 starts that Redding couldn't do too? Point being, it can't get any worse. Jose has to be injured.

sox1970
09-01-2006, 10:51 PM
Did you forget your teal sir?

Why would you want Contreras out there anymore? He's done.

Tragg
09-01-2006, 10:55 PM
On the surface it doesn't, but what the hell has Contreras done the last 4 starts that Redding couldn't do too? Point being, it can't get any worse. Jose has to be injured. Having seen Redding pitch far more frequently than my stomach deserves, I can assure you that there is plenty that Redding has done, that Contreras, thankfully, even in his Yankee malaise, didn't come close to doing.
Redding is an organizational minor leaguer. If we need him, we're in deep, deep, deep trouble.

It is great news that Haeger and Logan pitched well; I don't think they'll be on the playoff roster or anything, but young pitchers like those 2, at the very least, are far better for bullpens than are the career middle relievers. And Haeger might become a starter. Just thinking for next year.

A. Cavatica
09-01-2006, 10:56 PM
How about Haeger starting for Contreras in Boston? Jose is done.

Another option is Tim Redding who threw a complete game 3-hitter for Charlotte tonight.

Contreras is our #1 starter. If he doesn't figure it out we're not going to last long, even if we make the playoffs. If it turns out he's hurt, give him three weeks off, but if he's healthy then he's going to start.

It's amazing how we haven't been able to find starts for McCarthy this year, even though he's clearly ready, and the plan going into the season was to slot him in when one of the other starters got hurt. Well, they haven't gotten hurt, but every one of them has had at least a two-month period where they just plain sucked. That's our season right there.

Haeger and Redding ought to be competing for the long man role, nothing more.

QCIASOXFAN
09-01-2006, 10:56 PM
Why would you want Contreras out there anymore? He's done.Oh sorry I forgot.:rolleyes:

itsnotrequired
09-01-2006, 10:56 PM
This thread is madness...

DaleJRFan
09-01-2006, 11:12 PM
IT WAS TWO INNINGS in mop-up against the ROYALS!!!

BUT, Boone Logan looked like a completely different pitcher. 93-94 on the gun with an 88 mph sweeper/sinker??? Ouch. Hey Neal Cotts, did I hear your mother calling?

DickAllen72
09-01-2006, 11:14 PM
IT WAS TWO INNINGS in mop-up against the ROYALS!!!


The Royals are a pretty good hitting team. It's their pitching that is the reason they are in last place.

DaleJRFan
09-01-2006, 11:14 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing McCarthy & Haeger replace Garcia and Vazquez in next year's rotation. The Sox should be able to get something of value in return for those two, and save money to spend at other positions as well.

Ozzie has already stated that he doesn't want a knuckeball pitcher on his team, so the call up was actually a surprise to me. But, it was two innings. If he does this for the rest of September and can prove himself in ST, he may just push someone out of the rotation.

DickAllen72
09-01-2006, 11:15 PM
Ozzie has already stated that he doesn't want a knuckeball pitcher on his team, so the call up was actually a surprise to me. But, it was two innings. If he does this for the rest of September and can prove himself in ST, he may just push someone out of the rotation.

When did Ozzie say that? I missed that one.

DaleJRFan
09-01-2006, 11:16 PM
The Royals are a pretty good hitting team. It's their pitching that is the reason they are in last place.

You missed my point. Who cares if it was against the Royals or the Yankees... the point is, the guy throws well in two innings and now everyone wants KW to trade Vavy or Freddy to make room for him in the rotation.

This thread is madness...

Right on.

caulfield12
09-01-2006, 11:18 PM
Ozzie has already stated that he doesn't want a knuckeball pitcher on his team, so the call up was actually a surprise to me. But, it was two innings. If he does this for the rest of September and can prove himself in ST, he may just push someone out of the rotation.

I think it's to prevent the path from 1st to 2nd at Comiskey from looking like Bristol Motor Speedway. Can you imagine....Jenks, Contreras, Garcia AND a knuckleballer?

We'd have how many "automatic" doubles and triples with every walk/single/HBP???

esbrechtel
09-01-2006, 11:19 PM
sound like the flubs...lets put a bunch of AAA pitchers in the rotation! although i thought that boone and haeger looked good tonight (ps look at some of the royals batting ave...they are a decent hitting team...)

DickAllen72
09-01-2006, 11:24 PM
You missed my point. Who cares if it was against the Royals or the Yankees... the point is, the guy throws well in two innings and now everyone wants KW to trade Vavy or Freddy to make room for him in the rotation.

I just want to see the Sox dump Freddie and Javy next year regardless. Their money can be better spent elsewhere. McCarthy can take one of those spots and either a new acquisition, or Haeger, or Broadway, or maybe even Thornton can take the other spot.

Beautox
09-01-2006, 11:40 PM
I just want to see the Sox dump Freddie and Javy next year regardless. Their money can be better spent elsewhere. McCarthy can take one of those spots and either a new acquisition, or Haeger, or Broadway, or maybe even Thornton can take the other spot.

I completely agree, people on this board make it out to sound like Javy/Garcia/Jose have been dominating <b>ALL YEAR</b>, the fact of the matter is they haven't we could releave alot of payroll and get good top tier prospects back in return.

John Sickels of RotoWire.com and MinorLeagueBall seems to think Broadway will be ready by Mid '07, so that is 3 MLB ready pitchers in '07, that at the very least would be league average(like our current starters) or could be so much more than that, and at the same time would cost 1/33 the cost of our current rotation, freeing up money to resign MB long term, and maybe get an amazing SS *cough* A-Rod *cough* Tejada, also we can then deal Podsednik and Uribe.

07 SP
MB
Garland
McCarthy
Haeger
Broadway

07 BP
Jenks
MacDougal
Thornton
Logan(hes been the closer down at AAA, and hes changed)
Cotts
Tracey

LF-Sweeney
CF-Anderson
RF-Dye
1B-PK
DH-Thome
2B-Iguchi
3B-Crede
SS-???
C-AJP

The sox should continue to bring in their own talent when ever available, also Fields should spend more time down at AAA learning plate discipline he strikes out way too much, and Big League pitching will exploit the hole in his swing.

QCIASOXFAN
09-01-2006, 11:43 PM
07 BP
Jenks
MacDougal
Thornton
Logan(hes been the closer down at AAA, and hes changed)
Cotts
TraceyI hope Cotts is not in the bullpen in 07.

DickAllen72
09-01-2006, 11:44 PM
I completely agree, people on this board make it out to sound like Javy/Garcia/Jose have been dominating <b>ALL YEAR</b>, the fact of the matter is they haven't we could releave alot of payroll and get good top tier prospects back in return.

John Sickels of RotoWire.com and MinorLeagueBall seems to think Broadway will be ready by Mid '07, so that is 3 MLB ready pitchers in '07, that at the very least would be league average(like our current starters) or could be so much more than that, and at the same time would cost 1/33 the cost of our current rotation, freeing up money to resign MB long term, and maybe get an amazing SS *cough* A-Rod *cough* Tejada, also we can then deal Podsednik and Uribe.

07 SP
MB
Garland
McCarthy
Haeger
Broadway


I agree for the most part, however I still have a soft spot in my heart for Jose and I believe he still can be dominating. I think he's a little bit injured right now.

BTW, ARod at SS for the Sox would be awesome, but I doubt it ever happens.

Beautox
09-01-2006, 11:46 PM
I agree for the most part, however I still have a soft spot in my heart for Jose and I believe he still can be dominating. I think he's a little bit injured right now.

BTW, ARod at SS for the Sox would be awesome, but I doubt it ever happens.
Josh Fields + Jose + Phillips + Cotts to NYY looks pretty good, it puts ARod back to his natural posistion, and gives the yankees pitching and their third basemen of the future.

gobears1987
09-01-2006, 11:58 PM
How about Haeger starting for Contreras in Boston? Jose is done.

**** man. That is about the dumbest comment I've seen in months. :dumbass:

I really wish we kept Esteban instead of trading for Jose. :rolleyes:

jabrch
09-02-2006, 12:01 AM
He was Nasty in 2 IP vs KC - I am not ready to conclude he should be starting. And I don't think we should rush Broadway either.

sox1970
09-02-2006, 12:02 AM
**** man. That is about the dumbest comment I've seen in months.

I really wish we kept Esteban instead of trading for Jose. :rolleyes:

I can't believe people are still backing Contreras after his last 4 starts. Unreal. The Sox either need to go to a 4 man in a couple weeks, or give someone else a try. If Contreras makes his last 5 starts, I'd be very surprised if the Sox win 2 of them.

DaleJRFan
09-02-2006, 12:05 AM
I really wish we kept Esteban instead of trading for Jose. :rolleyes:

Loaiza August:
4-0 - 42.2 IP - 1.48 ERA - 4 BB - 31 K

Contreras August:
1-3 - 30.0 IP - 7.50 ERA - 7 BB - 17 K

gobears1987
09-02-2006, 12:07 AM
I can't believe people are still backing Contreras after his last 4 starts. Unreal. The Sox either need to go to a 4 man in a couple weeks, or give someone else a try. If Contreras makes his last 5 starts, I'd be very surprised if the Sox win 2 of them.The fact that you are dumb enough to suggest dumping a man who recently had a 17 game win streak for a person who threw 2 ****ing shutout innings just shocks me.

Sure Contreras didn't look good tonight, but did you take into account the fact that 3 errors in an inning likely contributed to his poor performance? Sure he may be slumping, but he still has good stuff and will pull out of this slump. We need him against Boston. Ever since he came to the White Sox, he has had success against them.

gobears1987
09-02-2006, 12:07 AM
Loaiza August:
4-0 - 42.2 IP - 1.48 ERA - 4 BB - 31 K

Contreras August:
1-3 - 30.0 IP - 7.50 ERA - 7 BB - 17 KAre you seriously going to base this off of one ****ing month? I hope you are smarter than that.

Soxfanspcu11
09-02-2006, 12:08 AM
I can't believe people are still backing Contreras after his last 4 starts. Unreal. The Sox either need to go to a 4 man in a couple weeks, or give someone else a try. If Contreras makes his last 5 starts, I'd be very surprised if the Sox win 2 of them.

Yeah! Your right on man! I can not ****ing believe that the Sox stuck with Jose after the 1st half he had in 2005!!! He was soooooo terrible! They should have gone with a 4 man rotation back then and DFA'd Jose back then as well! We all know that if Jose has 4 or more bad starts in a row, he is toast! Could you imagine how much different 2005 would have ended up if we had gotten rid of Jose!?!?!?! Man! We would have NEVER won the World Series or even made the playoffs!!!! That would have been awesome!!! :rolleyes:

gobears1987
09-02-2006, 12:09 AM
Yeah! Your right on man! I can not ****ing believe that the Sox stuck with Jose after the 1st half he had in 2005!!! He was soooooo terrible! They should have gone with a 4 man rotation back then and DFA'd Jose back then as well! We all know that if Jose has 4 or more bad starts in a row, he is toast! Could you imagine how much different 2005 would have ended up if we had gotten rid of Jose!?!?!?! Man! We would have NEVER won the World Series or even made the playoffs!!!! That would have been awesome!!! :rolleyes: Thank you for interjecting some sense into this thread.

I understand the frustration some are feeling, but any suggestion that Contreras be pulled from the rotation for Haegar is just insane and idiotic.

sox1970
09-02-2006, 12:14 AM
The fact that you are dumb enough to suggest dumping a man who recently had a 17 game win streak for a person who threw 2 ****ing shutout innings just shocks me.

Sure Contreras didn't look good tonight, but did you take into account the fact that 3 errors in an inning likely contributed to his poor performance? Sure he may be slumping, but he still has good stuff and will pull out of this slump. We need him against Boston. Ever since he came to the White Sox, he has had success against them.

#1--the 2nd half of that 17-win streak had quite a few games he got off the hook by the offense. He's been very mediocre to bad for 3 months. Since he came off the DL in May, he's made 20 starts. Only 8 quality starts. He's made 26 starts total this year. The Sox are 13-13. Mediocre.

The proof will be in the pudding. If he makes his last 5 starts, and gets 3 quality starts and the Sox go 3-2 or better, I'll come back and apologize. In fact, I hope I am wrong.

DaleJRFan
09-02-2006, 12:15 AM
Are you seriously going to base this off of one ****ing month? I hope you are smarter than that.

The fact that you are dumb enough to suggest dumping a man who recently had a 17 game win streak for a person who threw 2 ****ing shutout innings just shocks me.

Dude, who died and made you a ****ing expert?? Are you implying that you have superior intelligence two both sox1970 and myself?

Tone it down.

Jose has been terrible, downright awful as a matter of fact, the past two months. I can say whatever the hell I want about how BAD he's been without having to field insults from posters like you.

sox1970
09-02-2006, 12:17 AM
Yeah! Your right on man! I can not ****ing believe that the Sox stuck with Jose after the 1st half he had in 2005!!! He was soooooo terrible! They should have gone with a 4 man rotation back then and DFA'd Jose back then as well! We all know that if Jose has 4 or more bad starts in a row, he is toast! Could you imagine how much different 2005 would have ended up if we had gotten rid of Jose!?!?!?! Man! We would have NEVER won the World Series or even made the playoffs!!!! That would have been awesome!!! :rolleyes:

Quit living in the past. He was the man in 2005 for an entire half. Jose has been extremely mediocre for months, and now he's bad--real bad. I hope he turns it around, but I have a feeling the Sox will go 1-4 his last 5 starts if he makes them.

SluggersAway
09-02-2006, 12:17 AM
07 SP
MB
Garland
McCarthy
Haeger
Broadway

07 BP
Jenks
MacDougal
Thornton
Logan(hes been the closer down at AAA, and hes changed)
Cotts
Tracey

LF-Sweeney
CF-Anderson
RF-Dye
1B-PK
DH-Thome
2B-Iguchi
3B-Crede
SS-???
C-AJP



Your team is not going to win the world series.

Please bring back kenny williams.

gobears1987
09-02-2006, 12:21 AM
Quit living in the past. He was the man in 2005 for an entire half. Jose has been extremely mediocre for months, and now he's bad--real bad. I hope he turns it around, but I have a feeling the Sox will go 1-4 his last 5 starts if he makes them.By your logic, the Sox should've gotten rid of Mark Buehrle in 2003. After all, he did have a 10 game losing streak.

You can't judge a pitcher based on his performance over a few months. You must look at the big picture here. Jose is still a dominant pitcher. He did quite well against Detroit recently. This showed he still has the stuff. Perhaps if his defense helped him he wouldn't have a poor record.

Please get a clue here. Charlie Haegar will not save this team. He is not a better starter than Jose.

QCIASOXFAN
09-02-2006, 12:21 AM
I know Jose hasn't been the best lately, but it is just amazing with how little faith some of you have in him now.:o: Didn't he have a complete game shutout against the Tigers a few weeks ago? Sure hes had some bad starts but to suggest taking him out of the rotation is simply ridiculous. Now if we find out hes hurt or something thats fine, but other than that he stays in the rotation. I can't believe I'm even talking about this.

gobears1987
09-02-2006, 12:23 AM
Dude, who died and made you a ****ing expert?? Are you implying that you have superior intelligence two both sox1970 and myself?

Tone it down.

Jose has been terrible, downright awful as a matter of fact, the past two months. I can say whatever the hell I want about how BAD he's been without having to field insults from posters like you.Seeing how you implied that we would be better off with Esteban, I think I am more on a little better ground here.

He has been bad for a few months. Big ****ing deal. Buehrle was bad for a whole half season in 03 and turned out alright. Pitchers go through slumps for various causes. All you can do is run them out there and let them work it out.

DaleJRFan
09-02-2006, 12:25 AM
Seeing how you implied that we would be better off with Esteban, I think I am more on a little better ground here.

He has been bad for a few months. Big ****ing deal. Buehrle was bad for a whole half season in 03 and turned out alright. Pitchers go through slumps for various causes. All you can do is run them out there and let them work it out.

Why, because I posted stats?? That's implying I want Loaiza back on the Sox? Mark Buehrle was what... 24 when he was slumping?? Were the Sox defending a World Series championship in 2003? Contreras is 36 and supposed to be an ace. He's a 5th starter at best right now. How having a 7+ ERA and only managing 5 IP for the last two months isn't cause for alrm is beyond me. Maybe you have some information the rest of us don't, since you seem to think you are superior to the rest of the posters who have made comments in this thread.

sox1970
09-02-2006, 12:26 AM
By your logic, the Sox should've gotten rid of Mark Buehrle in 2003. After all, he did have a 10 game losing streak.

You can't judge a pitcher based on his performance over a few months. You must look at the big picture here. Jose is still a dominant pitcher. He did quite well against Detroit recently. This showed he still has the stuff. Perhaps if his defense helped him he wouldn't have a poor record.

Please get a clue here. Charlie Haegar will not save this team. He is not a better starter than Jose.

I'm not saying Haeger should replace Contreras in the rotation in 2007. In fact, I don't want Haeger in the rotation ever. I'm saying Jose is injured and can't locate his fastball. Haeger or Redding can make a couple spot starts and then go to a 4-man rotation. There are 28 games left to get in the playoffs. If Buehrle, Garcia, and Garland have to make 7 more starts, I'm all for it.

Soxfanspcu11
09-02-2006, 12:27 AM
Dude, who died and made you a ****ing expert?? Are you implying that you have superior intelligence two both sox1970 and myself?

Tone it down.

Jose has been terrible, downright awful as a matter of fact, the past two months. I can say whatever the hell I want about how BAD he's been without having to field insults from posters like you.

Anyone can say whatever they want, as long as it's not against the rules of the site. Everyone also has their own opinions, and that's a good thing.

Everyone here is really pissed right now, no doubt. However, to say things suggesting that Jose should be removed from the rotation is just INSANE!!! And not the usual WSI insane, a special kind of insane that is not found very often.

First of all, no one is going to be removed from the rotation at this point of the year unless, god forbid, an injury occurs. The idea itself is just ludicrous, and I don't mean the rapper.

Secondly, playing devil's advocate, if anyone were to be removed from the rotation, it would be Garcia, or possibly even Javy, it certainly would never be Jose.

And thirdly, could you imagine the psychological damage that removing a starter would cause? Not just to the removed starter himself, but to the general mood of the team? The results would be absolutely devastating. Said starter's career with the White Sox would likely be finished and his confidence would be so shattered that there is likely no way he could contribute down the stretch and into the playoffs.

I'm all for everyone sharing their opinions, saying what they feel, and maybe most importantly, VENTING! After all, letting out the anger on WSI is very therapeutic. However, let's just try and keep it within reason. Unless we want the teal swat team parachuting into this thread, let's keep the gun wielding to a minimum.

caulfield12
09-02-2006, 12:44 AM
Josh Fields + Jose + Phillips + Cotts to NYY looks pretty good, it puts ARod back to his natural posistion, and gives the yankees pitching and their third basemen of the future.

The Yankees have two of the best pitching prospects in the game. None of ours are close, maybe (MAYBE) McCarthy.

They also are locked into Pavano for next year. Obviously Wang is going to be around as well.

Why they would want H. Phillips is beyond me. Contreras has already proven that he's disastrous there, and Cashman is too smart to even think about this one.

caulfield12
09-02-2006, 12:46 AM
He was Nasty in 2 IP vs KC - I am not ready to conclude he should be starting. And I don't think we should rush Broadway either.

KC does have the best batting average in the AL (and maybe the majors) for the month of August. They're not chopped liver. But I think the Royals were just trying to get the game over at that point, which caused them problems in the end because their offense shut down like ours normally does with a big lead.

Soxfanspcu11
09-02-2006, 12:59 AM
Quit living in the past. He was the man in 2005 for an entire half. Jose has been extremely mediocre for months, and now he's bad--real bad. I hope he turns it around, but I have a feeling the Sox will go 1-4 his last 5 starts if he makes them.

If I were making an argument suggesting that I was living in the past, I would expect you to call me out on it. However, that is not what I am doing.

I'm not issuing Jose a free pass of lienency and saying that we should just let it go because of what he did last year, not at all. What I AM saying is that you can't go down that slippery slope and say that Jose should be removed from the rotation because of his past 5 starts. Is there cause for concern? Absolutely! Could he be injured? Possibly. Is his confidence incredibly bad right now? Probably.

My point is simply this, you CAN NOT give up on him right now because of his recent struggles. He has proven that he has the ability to turn it around on a dime. As someone else said, lost in all of this is the absolute gem he threw against Detroit a few weeks back. That complete game domination was thrown right in the middle of his recent troubles, against one of the best offenses in the game. That performance is what leads me to believe that his recent troubles are not physical, but mental. If he were hurting, there is no way he would have been able to do what he did that day.

I could even use your argument of "Stop living in the past" to further validate my point, simply by saying that Jose's recent troubles are "in the past" and that the real Jose will return for his next start. It's all perception.

You believe that Jose will go 1-4 in his next 5 starts. I believe he will go 3-0 with 2 no decisions, we'll see what happens.

caulfield12
09-02-2006, 01:09 AM
If I were making an argument suggesting that I was living in the past, I would expect you to call me out on it. However, that is not what I am doing.

I'm not issuing Jose a free pass of lienency and saying that we should just let it go because of what he did last year, not at all. What I AM saying is that you can't go down that slippery slope and say that Jose should be removed from the rotation because of his past 5 starts. Is there cause for concern? Absolutely! Could he be injured? Possibly. Is his confidence incredibly bad right now? Probably.

My point is simply this, you CAN NOT give up on him right now because of his recent struggles. He has proven that he has the ability to turn it around on a dime. As someone else said, lost in all of this is the absolute gem he threw against Detroit a few weeks back. That complete game domination was thrown right in the middle of his recent troubles, against one of the best offenses in the game. That performance is what leads me to believe that his recent troubles are not physical, but mental. If he were hurting, there is no way he would have been able to do what he did that day.

I could even use your argument of "Stop living in the past" to further validate my point, simply by saying that Jose's recent troubles are "in the past" and that the real Jose will return for his next start. It's all perception.

You believe that Jose will go 1-4 in his next 5 starts. I believe he will go 3-0 with 2 no decisions, we'll see what happens.

I think if the defense starts coming around (meaning no more Mack in CF or three-error innings), the results would be completely different.

I also think that if we try Sweeney in LF leading off and he starts executing, doing the little things that we've forgotten about, it could spark the entire team and change the mindset a little bit. Something like if a rookie can come up and do those little things, then an experienced veteran can do the same.

Even Konerko has gotten away from automatically sacrificing himself by deliberately going the other way with runners on base. Iguchi, as noted by others, hasn't been quite as effective either.

I think we really need leadoff, Iguchi and AJ in particular to stop thinking pull all the time...we're never going to change Uribe, Anderson's just a rookie, but those three positions are critical. And, if they come around again fundamentally, it will influence the middle of the order hitters positive as well (at least that's my theory).

Soxfanspcu11
09-02-2006, 01:21 AM
I think if the defense starts coming around (meaning no more Mack in CF or three-error innings), the results would be completely different.

I also think that if we try Sweeney in LF leading off and he starts executing, doing the little things that we've forgotten about, it could spark the entire team and change the mindset a little bit. Something like if a rookie can come up and do those little things, then an experienced veteran can do the same.

Even Konerko has gotten away from automatically sacrificing himself by deliberately going the other way with runners on base. Iguchi, as noted by others, hasn't been quite as effective either.

I think we really need leadoff, Iguchi and AJ in particular to stop thinking pull all the time...we're never going to change Uribe, Anderson's just a rookie, but those three positions are critical. And, if they come around again fundamentally, it will influence the middle of the order hitters positive as well (at least that's my theory).

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except where you say that we are never going to change Uribe.

I'm actually starting to get really ****ing sick of that ****! Not at you for saying that, but at Uribe for being such a difficult prick! Juan needs to be in there for his defense, but he needs to stop being such a difficult headcase when it comes to his offense. He needs to do what is asked of him. Like you said, stop trying to pull the ball every ****ing at bat! When Oz calls on you to bunt, lay it down! If you are having trouble doing these things, then you need to get to the park at 8am with Walker and start working on it.

If it wasn't for Uribe's incredible defense, then I would say bench him until the season is over and/or send him down, and then get rid of him prior to 2007. However, like I said, his defense is just too valuable. I don't have a problem if players are giving it their all and failing, but I do have a problem with players just doing whatever the **** they want and not concentrating on what needs to be done for the team.

ShoelessJoeS
09-02-2006, 03:04 AM
At this point....would anyone put Haeger in front of Jose?

Grzegorz
09-02-2006, 05:17 AM
I would definetly want to see Haeger earn his way into the rotation. A good outing tonight doesn't cut it.

Well said, this is one outing lets see what he can do in a tight playoff race especially when it comes to controlling his pitches and holding runners on base.

Mohoney
09-02-2006, 09:16 AM
I think it's to prevent the path from 1st to 2nd at Comiskey from looking like Bristol Motor Speedway.

The more serious problem is that the path from home to 1B has looked like The Yellow Brick Road.

Beer Can Chicken
09-02-2006, 09:19 AM
At this point....would anyone put Haeger in front of Jose?

No way. The defense failed Jose last night and he missed some clutch pitches. The pitcher can't bail out the defense everytime.

viagracat
09-02-2006, 09:59 AM
No way. The defense failed Jose last night and he missed some clutch pitches. The pitcher can't bail out the defense everytime.

Exactly. Contreras obviously wasn't great last night, but he was better than he's been in his previous three starts. Except for the fourth, he was OK. I think the errors threw/pissed him off and he made some bad pitches. That's fair enough. The Sox played Keystone Kops in that inning.

And no, you're not going to see a starter dropped at this point in the season. What you see is what you get. Pull for them to step it up. We need every one of these guys.

caulfield12
09-02-2006, 10:02 AM
No way. The defense failed Jose last night and he missed some clutch pitches. The pitcher can't bail out the defense everytime.

I'm Ryan Sweeney, --tch!!!

southside rocks
09-02-2006, 10:15 AM
I can't believe people are still backing Contreras after his last 4 starts. Unreal. The Sox either need to go to a 4 man in a couple weeks, or give someone else a try. If Contreras makes his last 5 starts, I'd be very surprised if the Sox win 2 of them.

I can't believe that you think that 4 starts determine the fate of an established major-league pitcher.

This thread is bizarre, and it's not the only one. Who are all these strange people who clamor for the Sox to DFA Neal Cotts and dump Jose Contreras and hang Scott Podsednik from the CF flagpole, pretty much, because they're having bad weeks or months?

When did baseball become a game of instant gratification? And when did baseball "fans" become so ill-informed that they think that the best way to fix something is to throw it away?

Those posters sound like a lot of 2-year old kids throwing tantrums because mama just told them they can't ruin their dinner with a candy bar. Sometimes I wonder if this board is becoming the Flying Sock Nursery -- park your whiny Sox fan here and we'll mind him for you! :rolleyes:

BadBobbyJenks
09-03-2006, 03:20 AM
I would definetly want to see Haeger earn his way into the rotation. A good outing tonight doesn't cut it.


I dont want to see a knuckleballer in the rotation, I just dont trust em

balke
09-03-2006, 03:53 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing McCarthy & Haeger replace Garcia and Vazquez in next year's rotation. The Sox should be able to get something of value in return for those two, and save money to spend at other positions as well.

That's like saying "I wouldn't mind losing 15 more games next season" to me. I hope these guys work out, but both are pretty young. Mccarthy isn't what I thought he was going to be as a pitcher I don't think. And Haeger having one or two good starts out of the pen doesn't make him as good as Vasquez.

QCIASOXFAN
09-03-2006, 04:48 AM
Ozzie will never take Jose out of the rotation! If he knew we were talking about this he would laugh his ass off. He has had a few bad outings lately but other then that he is our ace! I guess that complete game shutout against the best team in the game a few weeks ago didnt mean anything! We will live and die with him. Deal with it!

Grzegorz
09-03-2006, 05:45 AM
Ozzie will never take Jose out of the rotation! If he knew we were talking about this he would laugh his ass off. He has had a few bad outings lately but other then that he is our ace! I guess that complete game shutout against the best team in the game a few weeks ago didnt mean anything! We will live and die with him. Deal with it!

At this time he is anything but our ace. Currently would he be the pitcher of choice to start a playoff series?

This whole Contreras situation reminds me of the old market caveat that "past performances do not guarantee future results" and another pearl of wisdom from
Branch Rickey: "Trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late."

In the off season if the deal is right dealing Contreras would be the smart thing to do.

caulfield12
09-03-2006, 05:58 AM
It's a year too late to trade Vazquez, Garcia, Buehrle, Contreras, McCarthy, Cotts and Politte.

That's the way it goes. Contreras isn't going anywhere. We're never going to trade him when his value is at rock bottom, KW is smarter than that.

Tragg
09-03-2006, 08:30 AM
I can't believe people are still backing Contreras after his last 4 starts. Unreal. The Sox either need to go to a 4 man in a couple weeks, or give someone else a try. If Contreras makes his last 5 starts, I'd be very surprised if the Sox win 2 of them. I think I'll take Contreras over a pitcher like Redding with a career ERA in excess of 5, has had 1 season of an ERA below 5 in 6 tries, and last year had an era of about 15. (only 30 innings, but there was a good reason he pitched only 30 innings). Redding is an organizational minor leaguer.

If we want a new starter, put McCarthy in. He has a bad outing and the swords come out for him; but he's pitched well before and we're misusing him. Start the man. He's probably the most valuable pitcher we have. (cheap, young and talented).

But just like Ozzie won't move rob m from center, Ozzie absolutely will not start mccarthy this year.

voodoochile
09-03-2006, 09:23 AM
It's a year too late to trade Vazquez, Garcia, Buehrle, Contreras, McCarthy, Cotts and Politte.

That's the way it goes. Contreras isn't going anywhere. We're never going to trade him when his value is at rock bottom, KW is smarter than that.

Your what hurts?

Those players would ALL bring plenty in return (well, not Cotts or Politte, but if the Sox seriously offered the starters you mention as trade bait, other GM's would be kicking down the doors to land them.

jabrch
09-03-2006, 09:41 AM
Your what hurts?

Those players would ALL bring plenty in return (well, not Cotts or Politte, but if the Sox seriously offered the starters you mention as trade bait, other GM's would be kicking down the doors to land them.

And he is going to have to do eactly that in the offseason VC. I agree - we should be able to get something good for one of those starters. BM moves into the rotation next year - someone has to go. I hope KW can use that starter he trades to get a strong RP or two. Hopefully Haeger does a year in the pen next year getting ready to be a full time starter in 2008.

caulfield12
09-03-2006, 10:55 AM
My point is that it's easy to now say something like "let's trade Contreras" after he's had a string of bad starts. Or when Garcia's FB is consistently 86-88 and Vazquez can't get out of the sixth inning.

It's like the idiotic trade that the Red Sox supposedly wanted to make, sure, we'll give you CoCo Crisp for Buehrle.

None of the pitchers I have listed (with the possible exception of McCarthy) have more trade value than they had one year ago today.

We could have gotten back to the equivalent (in AA o A ball) of another Lumsden, Gio, Josh Rupe or Haigwood had we traded Cotts or Politte coming out of last season. That's why being a GM is so difficult.

Other threads point of what things would be like if we'd signed Colon or Ordonez.

soxinem1
09-03-2006, 12:07 PM
A knuckleballer as a middle reliever? I sure like the idea. I think he can be effective. The Royals may be an inferior team record-wise, but they have hit us hard all year. Their best hitters looked helpless against him. PLus his FB is in the 82-85 zone, a great pitch to use when they are geared up for the other 'number one', a big dancing butterfly.

He reminds me of Tom Candiotti who used to be with the Indians, among others. With Cleveland, he learned the knuckler, and along with his 82 MPH heater, made a nice career for awhile.

I'm sure Oz will test him out against the tougher teams this month....

Tragg
09-03-2006, 12:53 PM
It's like the idiotic trade that the Red Sox supposedly wanted to make, sure, we'll give you CoCo Crisp for Buehrle.

None of the pitchers I have listed (with the possible exception of McCarthy) have more trade value than they had one year ago today.

That offer was absurd - I'm sure Theo meant Ross Gload, not Mark Buehrle. Crisp's trade value should be way, way down.

Their value may be down, but they each still have good trade value. McCarthy might have more (more or not, he definitely has a lot) as might Garland (pitched well 2 years in a row and signed for a reasonable contract).

I love MB, but if we don't want to sign him (and I have no idea what KW wants to do; I hope like hell we do sign him), I hope we call Jocketty in the offseason.

A. Cavatica
09-03-2006, 02:33 PM
We could have gotten Crisp for Buehrle without having to give up McCarthy as well? Is it too late?
:bandance:

INSox56
09-05-2006, 07:45 AM
I wanna see Haeger out there, as well as possibly sweeney/fields against some good teams to showcase them for possible trades, honestly.

caulfield12
09-05-2006, 08:49 AM
We can't keep trading away these guys. If we fall off, have a bad year, lose some our season tickets/sponsors, cut payroll, we're going to be in a world of hurt if we don't have Sweeney, McCarthy, Fields and Broadway around.

It's not a sustainable model for running an organization. Look how well the Twins have done in this area.

On our own, we've drafted and developed Rowand, Crede and Buehrle. That's about it.

The half decade before, C-Lee, Magglio and Konerko, although Konerko came in trade for Cameron.

Wouldn't it make more sense to trade away Vazquez or Garcia if we can get the same results from Haeger/Broadway/McCarthy for less than one million a year? If they're going to perform like legitimate frontline starters, sure, but neither has been this season. If Roger Clemens had the Sox run support behind him, he'd have 25 wins.

INSox56
09-05-2006, 09:57 AM
I was going on the fact that everyone seemingly doesn't want a knuckleballer in the rotation. Also I'd love to see Sweeney in our lineup, but only if we can get a leadoff hitter at another position, either 2B or SS being the only other places that are not complete must-keeps. I don't know how long we plan on keeping Dye on the team, but if we replace Pods with another leadoff hitter, that'll leave Sweeney rotting down in AAA for quite some time. And Fields ONLY if it's a A+ player in return (for example keeping Crede as long as we can and trading for Arod back to his original position). Be that unlikely, I don't wanna see Fields gone.

caulfield12
09-05-2006, 10:07 AM
Yeah, a lot depends on the Dye and Crede long-term situations. We know we can have Crede through 08 and Dye through 07 (at $6.5 million).

Sweeney or Fields, theoretically, could play RF, LF or 1B (although ideally, Sweeney would play OF and Fields 1B). That's the armageddon/doomsday scenario for many Sox fans of trading Konerko.

Then, you have to find a taker for Uribe and replace him with that leadoff hitter, not so easy.

Despite his AAA success (at leadoff in September), Sweeney is more ideally suited as a 2 or 7-9 hitter right out of the box in the majors. I'm pretty sure he will bat 8th or 9th tonight, he could bat 7th but I would be surprised.

the gooch
09-05-2006, 10:46 AM
Yeah, a lot depends on the Dye and Crede long-term situations. We know we can have Crede through 08 and Dye through 07 (at $6.5 million).

Sweeney or Fields, theoretically, could play RF, LF or 1B (although ideally, Sweeney would play OF and Fields 1B). That's the armageddon/doomsday scenario for many Sox fans of trading Konerko.

Then, you have to find a taker for Uribe and replace him with that leadoff hitter, not so easy.

Despite his AAA success (at leadoff in September), Sweeney is more ideally suited as a 2 or 7-9 hitter right out of the box in the majors. I'm pretty sure he will bat 8th or 9th tonight, he could bat 7th but I would be surprised.
That's not my armageddon scenario. I think the Sox handcuffed themselves by forcing the captain tag on him. Paulie is great to have, but the Sox won the world series without anybody named the captain, and they did it with a 1B and DH earning a combined $12M or so (not including the 40 days of Thomas). With where our top prospects project to play, I don't know if it is in the Sox best interests to keep paulie the entirety of his contract, and the captain label makes it that much more difficult to do anything about it.

INSox56
09-05-2006, 12:17 PM
Konerko would definitely fetch a top player, no doubt about that. I don't know, I'm somewhat, only somewhat disenchanted with the guy right now. I'm starting to feel he's one of the worst clutch hitters on our team right now(recent exception to the big HR he hit). I'm not saying I'm right or that stats couldn't prove otherwise. I just feel that when he's up and there's a runner on, it's either a short popup or an automatic DP.