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View Full Version : Dye or Jeter for MVP?


WizardsofOzzie
08-30-2006, 02:18 PM
Anyone catch Cold Pizza this morning? Woody insisted that MVP was Jeter's to lose. Skip called him out saying, not only does JD have better numbers than Jeter, but even pointed out that if Jeter had played for the Oakland A's he wouldn't even be in the MVP race and that it was all a matter of "pinstripes" Bravo Skip :smile:

Scottzilla
08-30-2006, 02:19 PM
hes the last person who should be whining about bias lol

southwstchi4life
08-30-2006, 02:21 PM
Dye, winning in more categories

DaleJRFan
08-30-2006, 02:22 PM
Anyone catch Cold Pizza this morning? Woody insisted that MVP was Jeter's to lose. Skip called him out saying, not only does JD have better numbers than Jeter, but even pointed out that if Jeter had played for the Oakland A's he wouldn't even be in the MVP race and that it was all a matter of "pinstripes" Bravo Skip :smile:

Skip Bayliss positively contributed to a sports conversation?? No way!! :cool:

WizardsofOzzie
08-30-2006, 02:24 PM
Skip Bayliss positively contributed to a sports conversation?? No way!! :cool:

Trust me, i was shocked too. Usually i can't stand the guy

MarySwiss
08-30-2006, 02:24 PM
IMO, the next time Woody Paige gets something right will be the first time.

skottyj242
08-30-2006, 02:27 PM
IMO, the next time Woody Paige gets something right will be the first time.

I actually like Woody, he always rips on Mariotti on Around The Horn.

MarySwiss
08-30-2006, 02:29 PM
I actually like Woody, he always rips on Mariotti on Around The Horn.

Everybody rips on Mariotti on ATH. :D:

And, like a couple of other posters, I also am somewhat surprised that Bayless came down on JD's side.

knocko94
08-30-2006, 02:32 PM
Yesterday Bayliss called Big Frank a cancer who destroyed 5 White Sox teams. He said there was no way he was getting in the Hall of Fame.

Screw that guy.

stacksedwards
08-30-2006, 02:37 PM
Since both of them played in the league for so long and follow the game so closley I really value what these guys say.

The only two things Jeter has in his favor are
1) a great glove at short
2) his team has won more games

While Dye
1) Countless clutch hits
2) great power numbers
3) arguably the best player in the game since late October of last year
4) Stepping up even more than usual with a big bat in the line up down

WizardsofOzzie
08-30-2006, 02:43 PM
Another point that was made was that Jeter has a very low HR #, 12 i think. Apparently the MVP has only been awarded to a player with less than 20 HR 2 times in history.

Dan Mega
08-30-2006, 02:44 PM
Since both of them played in the league for so long and follow the game so closley I really value what these guys say.


My eyes!
:tealtutor:

Madvora
08-30-2006, 02:46 PM
Another point that was made was that Jeter has a very low HR #, 12 i think. Apparently the MVP has only been awarded to a player with less than 20 HR 2 times in history.
Nellie Fox had 2 home runs in 1959.

Who's another one?
......Anyone?

hi im skot
08-30-2006, 02:49 PM
Nellie Fox had 2 home runs in 1959.

Who's another one?
......Anyone?

Um...Eckersley?
:?:

skottyj242
08-30-2006, 02:52 PM
Ryne Sandberg.

skottyj242
08-30-2006, 02:54 PM
Rod Carew.

ShoelessJoeS
08-30-2006, 02:57 PM
I don't even understand how Jeter is even in contention? His numbers are not nearly as good as Dye's or Morneau's.

:?:

the gooch
08-30-2006, 02:58 PM
how many hr did ichiro have?

BA: The Hitman
08-30-2006, 02:59 PM
i think ichiro had something like 9 when he won mvp in his rookie year.......im pretty positive it was in single digits

skottyj242
08-30-2006, 03:00 PM
how many hr did ichiro have?

Very good, I think he had 8.

zmz723
08-30-2006, 03:00 PM
I don't even understand how Jeter is even in contention? His numbers are not nearly as good as Dye's or Morneau's.

:?:

easy, ESPN

skottyj242
08-30-2006, 03:00 PM
Barry Larkin.

skottyj242
08-30-2006, 03:01 PM
Willie McGee.

skottyj242
08-30-2006, 03:02 PM
Keith Hernandez.

Scottzilla
08-30-2006, 03:02 PM
honus wagner

ShoelessJoeS
08-30-2006, 03:02 PM
easy, ESPNI know, and it's ****ing horse****.

skottyj242
08-30-2006, 03:03 PM
Another point that was made was that Jeter has a very low HR #, 12 i think. Apparently the MVP has only been awarded to a player with less than 20 HR 2 times in history.

Apparently you're wrong.

Zolio Versalles.

skottyj242
08-30-2006, 03:03 PM
Phil Cavaretta.

sullythered
08-30-2006, 03:05 PM
Woody Paige is the only reason that Jay Marriotti is my SECOND most hated columnist.

skottyj242
08-30-2006, 03:09 PM
Jackie Robinson.

soxfan13
08-30-2006, 03:09 PM
Apparently you're wrong.

Zolio Versalles.

soxfan13 looks behind the curtain and finds skottyj242 frantically surfing baseball-reference.com, to come up with all these names!!!

CHISOXFAN13
08-30-2006, 03:10 PM
I don't even understand how Jeter is even in contention? His numbers are not nearly as good as Dye's or Morneau's.

:?:

His batting average now stands at .340 after a three-hit effort today. That's pretty damn impressive. As is 81 RBI from the two hole.

I think Jeter is more deserving than Ortiz, but I also think that Dye is more deserving than Jeter.

1. Dye
2. Jeter
3. Morneau

That's how I would vote.

skottyj242
08-30-2006, 03:10 PM
soxfan13 looks behind the curtain and finds skottyj242 frantically surfing baseball-reference.com, to come up with all these names!!!

For some but we came up with most of them on our own.

soxfan13
08-30-2006, 03:11 PM
For some but we came up with most of them on our own.

who, you and the mouse in your pocket?

skottyj242
08-30-2006, 03:15 PM
who, you and the mouse in your pocket?

Me and SMY.

Frontman
08-30-2006, 03:35 PM
Jeter is consideration due to East Coast bias. If Ortiz is being considered as a Red Sox player, a Yankees player must immediately enter contention as well. ESPN will not do anything to piss off the fan bases of those two teams, so if Ortiz is in the running, Jeter has to be considered.

I'll give you Ortiz as the MVP of the Red Sox. I'd even give you Jeter as being the bright spot on the Yanks season; especially in light of A-Rod falling apart completely. But what Dye has done for the Sox this season is beyond remarkable. Not just with the hits, RBIs, and Home Runs; but a few plays in the outfield when they were really needed. The dive into the fence a few months back and about 3 weeks ago that dive towards the 1st base line on a bloop hit was awesome.

I just hope we stay in the lead for the wildcard, as he then will be a shoe-in candiate for it. This past week has been incredible play for JD; and with his demeanor, he deserves the award of AL MVP.

Front

skottyj242
08-30-2006, 03:47 PM
Jeter is consideration due to East Coast bias. If Ortiz is being considered as a Red Sox player, a Yankees player must immediately enter contention as well. ESPN will not do anything to piss off the fan bases of those two teams, so if Ortiz is in the running, Jeter has to be considered.

I'll give you Ortiz as the MVP of the Red Sox. I'd even give you Jeter as being the bright spot on the Yanks season; especially in light of A-Rod falling apart completely. But what Dye has done for the Sox this season is beyond remarkable. Not just with the hits, RBIs, and Home Runs; but a few plays in the outfield when they were really needed. The dive into the fence a few months back and about 3 weeks ago that dive towards the 1st base line on a bloop hit was awesome.

I just hope we stay in the lead for the wildcard, as he then will be a shoe-in candiate for it. This past week has been incredible play for JD; and with his demeanor, he deserves the award of AL MVP.

Front

I don't think Ortiz is the MVP of the Red Sox, what is he without Manny behind him?

Frontman
08-30-2006, 04:28 PM
I don't think Ortiz is the MVP of the Red Sox, what is he without Manny behind him?

He's the one carrying Manny's sorry carcass. I'm sorry, but Mann-Ramm isn't worth the hype that he is, compared to Ortiz's actual results this year.

Front

WhiteSox1983
08-30-2006, 04:52 PM
I work with a guy, who hates the white sox (because they are my team), so he refuses to give dye props. He keeps saying jeter is mvp because of all these so called intangibles. I said dye's numbers are far bettter, and he even co signed that, but he still said jeter is better because of the intangibles. I asked him to tell me which intangibles and he said "clutch hits". So i told him about the game tieing homers in the bottom of the ninth this year off of papelbon and nathan (two best closers in the AL in my opinion). Anyways even if sox make playoffs dye should win the mvp. If twins make playoffs then morneau needs to win. Jeter is just a puppet of ESPN's.

fquaye149
08-30-2006, 05:01 PM
He's the one carrying Manny's sorry carcass. I'm sorry, but Mann-Ramm isn't worth the hype that he is, compared to Ortiz's actual results this year.

Front

um...what? are you kidding?

Manny's always hit, Ortiz or not. Ortiz and Manny both have good numbers this year.

You may hate Manny (understandable) but there's no doubt he's an excellent hitter, Ortiz or not.

Britt Burns
08-30-2006, 05:49 PM
In a fair world Dye would walk away with the MVP. Off hand I can recall him making only one bad play in the OF all year, and his hitting has been incredible. Moreover, he has been every bit as clutch as Ortiz, you just don't hear about it on ESPN 50 times a day.

Scottzilla
08-30-2006, 05:50 PM
Jeter is just a puppet of ESPN's.

no hes like if a muppet made it with the Rock

chaerulez
08-30-2006, 05:56 PM
Since both of them played in the league for so long and follow the game so closley I really value what these guys say.

The only two things Jeter has in his favor are
1) a great glove at short
2) his team has won more games

While Dye
1) Countless clutch hits
2) great power numbers
3) arguably the best player in the game since late October of last year
4) Stepping up even more than usual with a big bat in the line up down

I part I bolded, is where you left off some of that teal (or intended teal). Jeter's defense is way overrated. He has terrible range, so when he gets to some balls the plays look great as he has to make an acrobatic throw to get the out, but those are balls that most shortstops can routinely handle. He is great at chasing down pop flies or fly balls, and doesn't make mistakes a lot, but his range at getting ground balls is bad.

Domeshot17
08-30-2006, 06:03 PM
Jeters a hell of a player, but if he put these numbers up for the anaheim angels would it be a BIG deal? I don't think so. That said, if the Sox don't win the division Dye wont win MVP. Very Rarely does a team that has underachieving like the sox (and yes as good as they have been, they have underachieved, they were suppose to win the AL easily) get an MVP type.

However, If Dye stays hot and we over take the tigers, Dye should win the mvp. If we miss the playoffs, then no, he doesnt deserve it.

DSpivack
08-30-2006, 06:10 PM
Jeters a hell of a player, but if he put these numbers up for the anaheim angels would it be a BIG deal? I don't think so. That said, if the Sox don't win the division Dye wont win MVP. Very Rarely does a team that has underachieving like the sox (and yes as good as they have been, they have underachieved, they were suppose to win the AL easily) get an MVP type.

However, If Dye stays hot and we over take the tigers, Dye should win the mvp. If we miss the playoffs, then no, he doesnt deserve it.
Funny you say that. No one is mentioning Freddy Sanchez as a serious NL MVP candidate. Though he is on last-place team, he has similar #'s as Jeter. Jeter is hitting .341/.414/.481 with 12 HRs, 81 RBIs (on a 1st-place team), along with 26 steals. Sanchez is hitting .347/.384/.488 with 6 HRs, 73 RBIs (on a last-place team), although he isn't a base-stealer (just 2).

If the Sox get in, Dye should get it. If they don't and the Twins get in, Morneau should get it.

Frontman
08-30-2006, 07:34 PM
um...what? are you kidding?

Manny's always hit, Ortiz or not. Ortiz and Manny both have good numbers this year.

You may hate Manny (understandable) but there's no doubt he's an excellent hitter, Ortiz or not.

He is a very decent hitter, but I'd take Big Papi over Man-Ramm any day of the week and twice on Sunday against the Yankees. Man-Ramm is a headache, he believes he's the star of the Red Sox, even though Ortiz is the man who gets the results.

If Ortiz was on the White Sox, and you put either Konerko, Dye, AJ, or Crede behind him; I'd wager he'd have very similar if not the same or even better results. Now, if you go and said to those nimrods over at ESPN that Konerko, Dye, AJ or Crede is as good as a hitter as Manny, they'd laugh at you. But stats don't lie, Manny isn't as good as Ortiz. Sure, he has a higher batting average, but HR or RBI; he isn't the same.

Front

fquaye149
08-30-2006, 08:04 PM
He is a very decent hitter, but I'd take Big Papi over Man-Ramm any day of the week and twice on Sunday against the Yankees. Man-Ramm is a headache, he believes he's the star of the Red Sox, even though Ortiz is the man who gets the results.

If Ortiz was on the White Sox, and you put either Konerko, Dye, AJ, or Crede behind him; I'd wager he'd have very similar if not the same or even better results. Now, if you go and said to those nimrods over at ESPN that Konerko, Dye, AJ or Crede is as good as a hitter as Manny, they'd laugh at you. But stats don't lie, Manny isn't as good as Ortiz. Sure, he has a higher batting average, but HR or RBI; he isn't the same.

Front
Well...let's take a looksee what these stats have to say:
and remember--this is after Manny started ice ice cold in April.

Manny's #'s:

.326 AVG/ .442 OBP/ .628 SLG/ 1.070 OPS/ 34 HR/ 100 RBI/ 77 R scored

Dye's #'s :

.324 AVG/ .390 OBP/ .661 SLG/ 1.051 OPS/ 39 HR/ 106 RBI/ 86 R scored

Ortiz's #'s:

.287 AVG/ .400 OBP/ .633 SLG/ 1.033 OPS/ 47 HR/ 121 RBI/ 99 R scored

Oh and just for the hell of it, since you made the ridiculous claim that Crede and Konerko and....AJ???? are better hitters than Manny:

Konerko's #'s:

.310 AVG/ .342 OBP/ .548 SLG/ .890 OPS/ 29 HR/94 RBI/82 R scored

Crede's #'s:

.301 AVG/ .334 OBP/ .546 SLG/ .980 OPS/28 HR/87 RBI/ 71 R scored

AJ's #'s:

.300/.339/.429/.768/12/49/57

So, you were saying?

or how about the nerd-stathead #'s you probably hate:
Top AL VORP's
(that is, value over replacement player...or how important the player is relative to runs created and how valuable that is to their position)

Hafner 76.7
Manny 62.6
Jeter 61.4
Ortiz 60.9
Dye 59.5

I guess I don't see why you think one of the best hitters of the late '90's and early '00's, who has hit consistently at an outstanding level, is the one feeding off the guy who didn't hit very well at all until he came to a hitter's park and starting hitting in the lineup behind a hall of famer.

Or are Thome's #'s only due to a resurgent Jermaine Dye? No question they help eachother out, there's no question AT ALL. But don't let your hatred of Manny as a person blind you to reality: the man is one of the best hitters of the past 20 years.

I mean--let's be realistic, Dye deserves the MVP award to a certain extent, but so do Ortiz and Jeter. Considering how many runs Ortiz has created this season and how many games he's won, and considering the fact that Jeter gives the Yankees decent power and incredible OBP from a SHORTSTOP, yes, I would be comfortable with any one of them winning.

I'm going to be honest--ESPN or not, I'm pretty sure White Sox fans are the only ones who think Dye has some sort of significant edge over Manny, Ortiz, or Jeter as far as MVP credentials.

flo-B-flo
08-30-2006, 10:51 PM
Mvp D Y E

flo-B-flo
08-30-2006, 10:53 PM
I part I bolded, is where you left off some of that teal (or intended teal). Jeter's defense is way overrated. He has terrible range, so when he gets to some balls the plays look great as he has to make an acrobatic throw to get the out, but those are balls that most shortstops can routinely handle. He is great at chasing down pop flies or fly balls, and doesn't make mistakes a lot, but his range at getting ground balls is bad. pay rod is a better SS.

Oblong
08-30-2006, 11:31 PM
I'm chiming in late but it has to be Dye. He's having the kind of year that used to be very monumental. With the streroid and HGH craze the past 10 years it will take the writers some time to spot a fantastic season.

He fits it in both major criteria, personal stats and the "where would his team be without him?" criteria.

aryzner
08-30-2006, 11:33 PM
I am a biased White Sox fan and I think that Jermaine deserves MVP.

ShoelessJoeS
08-30-2006, 11:47 PM
I am not an idiot so I think that Jermaine deserves MVP.Fixed it for you!

DSpivack
08-30-2006, 11:55 PM
lots of stats analysis comparing Ortiz, Manny, Dye, Konerko, yadda yadda yadda
You do a lot to compare these players this year (and I'm agreeing with you 100%), but who has had the best career among them? Easily Manny. It's not even close. He may be a jag off, but he's among the best right-handed hitters, ever.

162 Game Average for Manny: .314/.409/.599, 42 HRs and 136 RBIs. He has 434 career HRs, 1900 hits, nearly another 1000 walks, 1400 RBIs, and more. And he is just 34. Slugging percentage? 9th all time. OPS? 10th all time. OPS+? 4th among active players, 20th all time, tied with Dick Allen and Willie Mays. ABs per HR? 5th. Ever.

Do I like him as a person? No. But that doesn't mean he isn't among the best hitters, ever. I wonder how'd Ortiz would be doing if he didn't have Manny behind him.

EDIT: Apologies for the thread hijack.

Flight #24
08-31-2006, 12:07 AM
Raw stats:
Manny - 1.070OPS / 34HR / 100RBI / 77R
Dye - 1.040 OPS / 39HR / 106RBI / 85R
Papi - 1.033 OPS / 47HR / 121RBI / 99R
Jeter - .893 OPS / 12HR / 81RBI / 92R / 26SB

Give Jeter some credit for doing it at a less offensive-driven position.
As for "clutchness", stats with RISP:
Dye: 1.195OPS / 14HR / 74RBI
Manny: 1.087OPS / 10HR / 67RBI
Jeter: 1.063OPS / 4HR / 67RBI
Papi: .970OPS / 10HR / 71RBI


"Down the stretch", AKA post-ASB:
Manny: 1.114OPS / 10HR / 35RBI
Papi: 1.108OPS / 16HR / 34RBI
Dye: 1.034OPS / 14HR / 38RBI
Jeter: .900OPS / 7HR / 29RBI

Papi gets downgraded because of the DH factor, Boston's fade, and the fact that he's missing significant time down the stretch (and may sit out a while more depending on the heart issue). Plus, he's got Manny protecting him whereas Manny has......Kevin Youkilis? Manny's clearly ahead of Ortiz despite the media blitz, including a slight adv on D because he actually plays D, but he's also got the fade & injuries. Dye is clearly having an almost identical offensive season to Manny, his team is holding onto a playoff spot (and possibly a div title!), and he's a key part of it. The only possible rationale for Jeter being in the discussion is because of the value of his production at SS (and the NYY thing!).

Jermaine's also carrying the White Sox offense at a time when Jim Thome's been in & out of the lineup and they've needed to score runs to support shoddy pitching. And he plays RF as well as Jeter plays SS and we don't even have to mention that he dusts Manny & Papi defensively. He's also got solid speed and wil likely hit double digits in SB.

Hands down: JD. The only question really is this: How many players in MLB history have followed up WS MVP with AL MVP?

TheOldRoman
08-31-2006, 12:38 AM
The only possible rationale for Jeter being in the discussion is because of the value of his production at SS (and the NYY thing!).

Jermaine's also carrying the White Sox offense at a time when Jim Thome's been in & out of the lineup and they've needed to score runs to support shoddy pitching. And he plays RF as well as Jeter plays SS and we don't even have to mention that he dusts Manny & Papi defensively. He's also got solid speed and wil likely hit double digits in SB.

Hands down: JD. The only question really is this: How many players in MLB history have followed up WS MVP with AL MVP? Jermaine plays RF much much better than Jeter plays SS.
Jeter is a liability in the field. Every single halfway decent play he has ever made has been shown on the ESPN top ten, so it isn't a regular thing for him. His range is horrible, so he lets a lot of balls go by him. He creates more hits for the other team than most other AL shortstops. You can't knock Jeter as a hitter, but complementing his defense or giving him a gold glove is an insult to anyone with baseball knowledge and common sense.

brewcrew/chisox
08-31-2006, 12:42 AM
If Jeter wins another award that he doesn't deserve I'll puke.....unless it's the the most overrated player of the year award......oh, again

brewcrew/chisox
08-31-2006, 12:52 AM
Jermaine plays RF much much better than Jeter plays SS.
Jeter is a liability in the field. Every single halfway decent play he has ever made has been shown on the ESPN top ten, so it isn't a regular thing for him. His range is horrible, so he lets a lot of balls go by him. He creates more hits for the other team than most other AL shortstops. You can't knock Jeter as a hitter, but complementing his defense or giving him a gold glove is an insult to anyone with baseball knowledge and common sense.


And no one mentions the fact that Jeter makes that stupid jump throw all of the time only because he is so out of position with his footwork.Oh wait, that throw is awesome. Let's put it on the highlight reel!!

Nellie_Fox
08-31-2006, 12:56 AM
Woody Paige is the only reason that Jay Marriotti is my SECOND most hated columnist.Oh, come on. At least Woody makes fun of himself. Marriotti takes himself ever so seriously.

TheOldRoman
08-31-2006, 12:56 AM
And no one mentions the fact that Jeter makes that stupid jump throw all of the time only because he is so out of position with his footwork.Oh wait, that throw is awesome. Let's put it on the highlight reel!!
Like I said, every single time he does that it makes the ESPN top 10. However, most other shortstops would have gotten there earlier, planted their feet, and made an easy throw to get the guy out. But... but... he fell into the stands catching the ball once! He must be the best SS ever!

TheOldRoman
08-31-2006, 12:57 AM
Oh, come on. At least Woody makes fun of himself. Marriotti takes himself ever so seriously.
Well, Marrioti is the consumate professional.

fquaye149
08-31-2006, 01:01 AM
Well, the question is, how good is Jeter?

Some people don't think

a.) he's a good defensive SS

b.) he's the most important member of his team.

I've got to be honest--I'd love to see Dye win it...but who is more important to their team, him or Jeter?

Jeter's an average SS, Dye's an above avg. RFer. The question is: is it more valuable to be an average SS or an above avg. RFer? Most people would tend to say avg. SS b/c the # of chances are far greater at SS (much like CF or C). Let's call this a wash.

The big question is who's more important to their team? There's no doubting Dye's importance: myriad clutch hits, a great statistical line no matter how you slice it. The only edges Jeter has is a slight edge in BA, OBP and R's...hardly enough to account for Dye's vast superiority in HR, OPS, and RBI.

However: Jeter plays for a much better team, at least record wise, and he's a large reason for that success. Dye's great, probably the best power hitter on the Sox, but the Sox is a team of power hitters--compare Dye's #'s to Thome's #'s and it seems that although Dye's clearly having a better year, their type of game is comparable. It's a Manny and Ortiz kind of thing--take either away and the team is terribly worse off, but can you say one's much more valuable than the other, much less the most valuable in the league? I think you can, but I wouldn't blame voters if they thought differently on the issue.

Meanwhile, despite the fact that the Yankees have a quality lineup, Jeter has emerged as by far the superior hitter. His power #'s don't stack up, but every other factor has him the best on a lineup that was very bare for the most part of the season (at least compared to where it is now). Just as Ortiz very visibly carried the Red Sox and Dye has very visibly carried the Sox at points throughout the season, Jeter has very visibly carried the Yankees through their tough stretches.

Now, make no mistake, I have no love for Jeter, but I think his superior VORP to Dye and Ortiz belies that he has contributed this season in ways that far exceed what you would expect from a SS, or even from Derek Jeter.

I'm not saying I'd vote for him, necessarily--I think we have to see how the season ends first (that is, if Dye carries us to the playoffs, adding 10 more HR along the way, I think you have to give him the MVP)...what I'm trying to say is, look at this like an objective (non-WSIer, non ESPN-er). There's a strong case to be made for Dye, Ortiz, Manny, Jeter...hell, even Thome, Morneau, and Hafner have strong cases behind them.

TheOldRoman
08-31-2006, 01:19 AM
Well, the question is, how good is Jeter?

Some people don't think

a.) he's a good defensive SS

b.) he's the most important member of his team.

I've got to be honest--I'd love to see Dye win it...but who is more important to their team, him or Jeter?

Jeter's an average SS, Dye's an above avg. RFer. The question is: is it more valuable to be an average SS or an above avg. RFer? Most people would tend to say avg. SS b/c the # of chances are far greater at SS (much like CF or C). Let's call this a wash.

The big question is who's more important to their team? There's no doubting Dye's importance: myriad clutch hits, a great statistical line no matter how you slice it. The only edges Jeter has is a slight edge in BA, OBP and R's...hardly enough to account for Dye's vast superiority in HR, OPS, and RBI.

However: Jeter plays for a much better team, at least record wise, and he's a large reason for that success. Dye's great, probably the best power hitter on the Sox, but the Sox is a team of power hitters--compare Dye's #'s to Thome's #'s and it seems that although Dye's clearly having a better year, their type of game is comparable. It's a Manny and Ortiz kind of thing--take either away and the team is terribly worse off, but can you say one's much more valuable than the other, much less the most valuable in the league? I think you can, but I wouldn't blame voters if they thought differently on the issue.

Meanwhile, despite the fact that the Yankees have a quality lineup, Jeter has emerged as by far the superior hitter. His power #'s don't stack up, but every other factor has him the best on a lineup that was very bare for the most part of the season (at least compared to where it is now). Just as Ortiz very visibly carried the Red Sox and Dye has very visibly carried the Sox at points throughout the season, Jeter has very visibly carried the Yankees through their tough stretches.

Now, make no mistake, I have no love for Jeter, but I think his superior VORP to Dye and Ortiz belies that he has contributed this season in ways that far exceed what you would expect from a SS, or even from Derek Jeter.

I'm not saying I'd vote for him, necessarily--I think we have to see how the season ends first (that is, if Dye carries us to the playoffs, adding 10 more HR along the way, I think you have to give him the MVP)...what I'm trying to say is, look at this like an objective (non-WSIer, non ESPN-er). There's a strong case to be made for Dye, Ortiz, Manny, Jeter...hell, even Thome, Morneau, and Hafner have strong cases behind them.
I would much rather have an above average defensive RF than an average (actually below average) defensive SS. That way I could go out and get a good defensive SS, keep the better offensive production in RF, and save my pitching staff some runs.
The bolded quote is the most ridiculous. We are a 1/2 game behind the Yankees. Fold up the tents!:rolleyes:

WhiteSox1983
08-31-2006, 01:39 AM
I would much rather have an above average defensive RF than an average (actually below average) defensive SS. That way I could go out and get a good defensive SS, keep the better offensive production in RF, and save my pitching staff some runs.
The bolded quote is the most ridiculous. We are a 1/2 game behind the Yankees. Fold up the tents!:rolleyes:


Yeah seriously, yankees just have one less loss than us... so yankees are far more superior?

And everyone says jeter kept that team together... they bought a team full of all stars. Without a rod on that team they would be far worse as well.

fquaye149
08-31-2006, 01:43 AM
I would much rather have an above average defensive RF than an average (actually below average) defensive SS. That way I could go out and get a good defensive SS, keep the better offensive production in RF, and save my pitching staff some runs.
The bolded quote is the most ridiculous. We are a 1/2 game behind the Yankees. Fold up the tents!:rolleyes:

Well the other side of the coin is that offensive production is easier to come by in RF and that, realistically, even the best RFer in baseball isn't going to be much more valuable to the team than an avg RFer due to the amt. of chances they get.

Meanwhile, you say "get a good defensive SS" as if it's something you just go out and do. Well, the fact is, if you get a good defensive SS, the amount of production Dye gives you over the general (note: not avg) RFer is not going to make up for how lousy hitters most above avg SS's are. The ones who are above avg AND can hit are superstars for that very reason (see A-Rod and his 250 million dollar salary being wasted at 3B). For instance, let's say you went out and got Khalil Greene(assuming he was even available as most above avg defensive SS's are utility men somewhere or starting under the very conditions you described)--an above AVG SS, but representative of what "above avg SS's" generally hit

Greene:
.750 OPS/15hr/55rbi/

combine that with Dye:
1.051 OPS/ 39 HR/ 106 RBI

Compare that to having Jeter:
.900OPS / 7HR / 29RBI

and an average hitting corner outfielder, say, Eric Byrnes:
.831 OPS/20 HR/60 RBI

It's just about a wash when you consider runs scored. This is what VORP does--it tells you how hard it is to find similar production from the position. In Dye's case, he's much better than Byrnes, but not as much better as Jeter is than Greene (and Greene might even be a little better than average for SS whereas Byrnes right around normal for an OF) I'm not trying to say that Jeter should win... I really am not. I think Dye's having a great year, and in the end he'll be (knock on wood) .320/50/140 or so and there's no way that plus a playoff doesn't=MVP.

PS the whole "much better" was poorly worded. But in the eyes of people evaluating the situation now, the Yankees do look much better than us b/c they have a playoff berth all but locked up, whereas two days ago even the most faithful of WS fans had dim hopes of even winning the wild card.

fquaye149
08-31-2006, 01:46 AM
Yeah seriously, yankees just have one less loss than us... so yankees are far more superior?

And everyone says jeter kept that team together... they bought a team full of all stars. Without a rod on that team they would be far worse as well.

A-Rod's stats this year aren't even favorably comparable to Crede's. What's your point? We have as good a lineup as NY does now. Before Abreu we had a much better lineup. And yet the Yankees have been in first for a long time now. Yes we have a similar record after today's win and their loss, but in the eyes of voters, they're 6 games ahead, we're 5 games behind and flirting with third place. And it's not like the Yankees play in the NL West or something.

TheOldRoman
08-31-2006, 02:29 AM
A-Rod's stats this year aren't even favorably comparable to Crede's. What's your point? We have as good a lineup as NY does now. Before Abreu we had a much better lineup. And yet the Yankees have been in first for a long time now. Yes we have a similar record after today's win and their loss, but in the eyes of voters, they're 6 games ahead, we're 5 games behind and flirting with third place. And it's not like the Yankees play in the NL West or something.
:?:
New York spent most of the year playing in a division with two legitimate teams and one fringe team. The last month saw the Blue Jays dive and the Red Sox fall off the face of the earth. The AL east is a joke now. The White Sox have been in the best division in baseball the entire year. They will earn their ticket to the playoffs while NYY will get there by default. The White Sox, Tigers, and Twins are arguably the three best teams in baseball, and they are all in the same division. The Yankees might as well play in the NL West. I hope they go on a 4 game win streak starting tomorrow, but after that it doesn't matter what they do. They will make the playoffs, they will get tossed early, and Steinbrenner will be angry. Big deal. 2000.

Frontman
08-31-2006, 08:07 AM
Well...let's take a looksee what these stats have to say:
and remember--this is after Manny started ice ice cold in April.

Manny's #'s:

.326 AVG/ .442 OBP/ .628 SLG/ 1.070 OPS/ 34 HR/ 100 RBI/ 77 R scored

Dye's #'s :

.324 AVG/ .390 OBP/ .661 SLG/ 1.051 OPS/ 39 HR/ 106 RBI/ 86 R scored

Ortiz's #'s:

.287 AVG/ .400 OBP/ .633 SLG/ 1.033 OPS/ 47 HR/ 121 RBI/ 99 R scored

Oh and just for the hell of it, since you made the ridiculous claim that Crede and Konerko and....AJ???? are better hitters than Manny:

Konerko's #'s:

.310 AVG/ .342 OBP/ .548 SLG/ .890 OPS/ 29 HR/94 RBI/82 R scored

Crede's #'s:

.301 AVG/ .334 OBP/ .546 SLG/ .980 OPS/28 HR/87 RBI/ 71 R scored

AJ's #'s:

.300/.339/.429/.768/12/49/57

So, you were saying?

or how about the nerd-stathead #'s you probably hate:
Top AL VORP's
(that is, value over replacement player...or how important the player is relative to runs created and how valuable that is to their position)

Hafner 76.7
Manny 62.6
Jeter 61.4
Ortiz 60.9
Dye 59.5

I guess I don't see why you think one of the best hitters of the late '90's and early '00's, who has hit consistently at an outstanding level, is the one feeding off the guy who didn't hit very well at all until he came to a hitter's park and starting hitting in the lineup behind a hall of famer.



Yes he has, but he also has had Ortiz to build on as well. Had Boston not won 2 years ago, I fully believe Manny wouldn't be there, as his headache causing crap would of worn thin on the fans and Red Sox management. Yes, he's an incredible talent. Yes, he will enter the Hall, all things considered. Ty Cobb and Ted Williams were jerks as well from all accounts.

But your are misunderstanding me. My point is that Ortiz doesn't need Manny as much as folks says he does. Dye has had an incredible year with the "threat" of AJ/Crede behind him. (I didn't mean to say either them or Paulie was on the level of Manny.) You mean to say Ortiz couldn't have similar numbers to what he currently has with either of those two behind him? I believe he could if Ortiz was on the White Sox. That's my point about Ortiz. But it was Ortiz, not Manny, who has won in the clutch for Boston. He's done it, not Manny. I do apologize as I didn't want take the thread in the direction to be about Manny's worth, rather Ortiz.

My other point about Ortiz is that he's been the big game winner for the Red Sox, moreso than Jeter has for the Yankees. Jeter is being considered only due to the pinstripe factor and that he's the good looking captain. His numbers don't support consideration, and the only reason he isn't laughed off is due to the Red Sox fading, NOT that the Yankees are playing good ball. (Hell, had they played better ball, we would of only be 3 games back of the Tigers.)

Dye, in my opinion, should be MVP. He not only has gotten the HRs when needed, but he's fielded some incredible plays in right, he's done it with very little injuries (how the hell he didn't break his back when dove/rolled into the fence post in front of the bullpen is beyond me) and he's done it with timely hitting with singles/doubles. His numbers would of been even better had Ozzie realized eariler that Konerko has struggled in the back half of the season and moved Dye to the 4 spot. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "trade Paulie;" rather being honest and say he hasn't had a great second half of the season.) Dye then even stepped up further when Jim Thome went out last week and literally has carried this team for the past 8 days or so.

It's going to come down to this. East Coast biased aside, whichever team wins their division will probably get the MVP nod. If the Sox get even/pull ahead of the Tigers, Dye will get the award. If the Sox hang a few games back, the East Coasters will be of the philosophy that while Dye did some incredible things down the stretch, if he really was deserving, he'd have his team winning the division like Jeter did for the Yankees!!!! (Not that I'm saying Jeter deserves it, but I'm saying that's what the voters will force the issue on.)

Front

Soxfest
08-31-2006, 09:37 AM
DYE no doubt and the east coast lovefest will be a HUGE challenge!

D. TODD
08-31-2006, 09:47 AM
Sept. will determine the MVP. I would love to see Dye earn it with a big finish, and I think he has a great chance to do just that. At this point of the season I would have no problem with Jeter, Dye, or Ortiz winning the award, all are deserving at this point. All of that is icing on the cake though, just help us get to the playoffs and take it from there JD and I'll be happy.

SoxFan78
08-31-2006, 10:13 AM
Jeter will win MVP if yankees make the playoffs. Want to know why? 4 Words...

Eastern
Sports
Propoganda
Network

fquaye149
08-31-2006, 01:31 PM
Jeter will win MVP if yankees make the playoffs. Want to know why? 4 Words...

Eastern
Sports
Propoganda
Network

Or maybe because he led a NYY team with mediocre pitching to the playoffs, all the while putting up phenomenal #'s for a SS.

SouthSoxFan
09-01-2006, 03:32 AM
The only question really is this: How many players in MLB history have followed up WS MVP with AL MVP?
Found a couple of National Leaguers.

Mike Schmidt: WS MVP 1980, NL MVP 1981 (also was NL MVP 1980)
Bob Gibson: WS MVP 1967, NL MVP 1968

Another point that was made was that Jeter has a very low HR #, 12 i think. Apparently the MVP has only been awarded to a player with less than 20 HR 2 times in history. That's just not true. Its happened much more than twice.

MrX
09-01-2006, 01:21 PM
Buster Olney may lose his job soon, on his blog today he said that Dye would be his pick with Jeter coming in 2nd. He had his top 10 candidates and had PK at #10.

OrlandoPaleHose
09-02-2006, 01:56 AM
As we all know JD is having an MVP season. There are a few things going against him though:
1. He's not on the Yanks or BoSox
and
2. He isn't a flashy player. He just goes out, does the job, and wants nothing more than the Sox to win

Even though he won the WS MVP, I still don't think enough people (fans and press alike) consider him the great player that he is.

I put together a website campaigning for Dye, www.dye4mvp.com . I'm not trying to make money off of it (no ads or banners). All I want is for people to know the caliber player he is and for them to see just what exactly he is doing this year.

Things on the site:
Daily Stats and Lines
JD's stats vs the media darling MVP candidates
Interesting JD factoids
A list of baseball writers emails from around the country so we can start an old fashioned grass roots for the modern era campaign
A guestbook type of thing where you can post JD stories and memories
Free email (not fully working yet, but hopefully by Monday)... Upon registration you get an email address username@dye4mvp.com that can be checked at the site or have it forwarded to your registered email address

Plus:
When you register for the site you are entered into a drawing at the end of the season for an authentic Jermaine Dye home jersey size of your choice

Like I said, its all free... so please check it out and let me know what you think, or if you have any suggestions for the site please let me know

Thank you White Sox fans :smile:

p.s. If this is in the wrong forum, I'm terribly sorry:(: