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Grzegorz
08-27-2006, 06:57 PM
In the game on the August 27th, Mark Buerhle gave up a hit to Luis Castillo. During the next at bat, Buerhle picks off Castillo and in the ensuing rundown Ross Gload commits a throwing error that permits Castillo to reach third base.

Assume the next batter gets a base hit to score Castillo and then MB retires the side.

Is the run scored by Castillo earned or unearned?

ondafarm
08-27-2006, 08:52 PM
Unearned.

Once he is picked off, he is assumed out. Anybody who would not be on base except because of an error, his run is unearned.

voodoochile
08-27-2006, 10:27 PM
Unearned.

Once he is picked off, he is assumed out. Anybody who would not be on base except because of an error, his run is unearned.

No, only if he is ruled to have been safe directly due to the error. The scorekeeper can rule it a stolen base if he feels the runner would have been safe anyway (like he probably would have been today).

slobes
08-27-2006, 10:31 PM
No, only if he is ruled to have been safe directly due to the error. The scorekeeper can rule it a stolen base if he feels the runner would have been safe anyway (like he probably would have been today).

But then even if he feels that the runner would have made 2nd base without the error, you still have take into account that the error allowed him to reach third base. The run will be unearned if, had the error not happened, the runner would not have scored. If he would have scored even if the error didn't happen, the run is earned.

ondafarm
08-28-2006, 11:44 AM
No, only if he is ruled to have been safe directly due to the error. The scorekeeper can rule it a stolen base if he feels the runner would have been safe anyway (like he probably would have been today).

I didn't see the play, but I've never seen where a picked off runner would be safe without it being called an error. (Mud-clear there right?)

If Buehrle gets the throw in behind the guy then any scorer I know will assume that unless the play is totally fouled up (hence an error is awarded) the runner will be out. The only play I know which did violate this rule was made by none other than Ozzie who, when the runner was picked off and heading for second, took the throw from Squires and proceeded to chase the runner back towards first. Instead of throwing, Ozzie just kept chasing and the guy dove back in before Ozzie caught him.

Apart from that, you have a guy in a run down and don't put him away, an error should be awarded and that run should be unearned.

daveeym
08-28-2006, 12:55 PM
I didn't see the play, but I've never seen where a picked off runner would be safe without it being called an error. (Mud-clear there right?)

If Buehrle gets the throw in behind the guy then any scorer I know will assume that unless the play is totally fouled up (hence an error is awarded) the runner will be out. The only play I know which did violate this rule was made by none other than Ozzie who, when the runner was picked off and heading for second, took the throw from Squires and proceeded to chase the runner back towards first. Instead of throwing, Ozzie just kept chasing and the guy dove back in before Ozzie caught him.

Apart from that, you have a guy in a run down and don't put him away, an error should be awarded and that run should be unearned. No, voodoo is right. If the guy's just hauling ass to second when he's picked off, no throwing error is made and he beats the throw to second they'll score that as a stolen base.

ondafarm
08-28-2006, 02:39 PM
No, voodoo is right. If the guy's just hauling ass to second when he's picked off, no throwing error is made and he beats the throw to second they'll score that as a stolen base.

Then he's not picked off.

A major league first basemen should be able to get the ball there and major league shortstop apply the tag in plenty of time.

If it lists as a PO on the scoresheet and he's still onbase (and scores), there has to be an error assessed.

voodoochile
08-28-2006, 02:48 PM
Then he's not picked off.

A major league first basemen should be able to get the ball there and major league shortstop apply the tag in plenty of time.

If it lists as a PO on the scoresheet and he's still onbase (and scores), there has to be an error assessed.

I have seen players awarded stolen bases when they are picked off provided they break on first move and beat the throw/tag.

In the case the other day, the runner made third, but with two outs would not have scored on a flyball. When the next hitter singled, the scorer can count an earned run because he probably would have scored from second anyway.