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View Full Version : Is Contreras hurt?


buehrle4cy05
08-27-2006, 12:26 AM
I can't find another explanation as to why Jose has suddenly had this dropoff in his pitching ability. Does anyone think his back is still bothering him and maybe he's not telling Ozzie something?

NoShoesJoe
08-27-2006, 12:30 AM
Boy, talk about a 180! I wouldn't be surprised if there's something bothering him.

BeviBall!
08-27-2006, 12:39 AM
He has been amazingly bad this since coming off the DL.

Brian26
08-27-2006, 12:39 AM
Boy, talk about a 180! I wouldn't be surprised if there's something bothering him.

The question is, physically or psychologically?

MrX
08-27-2006, 12:43 AM
I wasn't paying much attention to it but his velocity seemed fine from what I saw. Like Garcia and Buehrle his location was terrible.

Brian26
08-27-2006, 12:48 AM
I wasn't paying much attention to it but his velocity seemed fine from what I saw. Like Garcia and Buehrle his location was terrible.

Yes, location was bad. The Twins were putting the ball in play, no doubt, but the Sox defense behind him was rather shaky, and I saw Contreras visibly bothered by this after the 2nd ball went over Mackowiak's head. Uribe came in to try to calm him down. Its obvious to everyone in the stadium except Ozzie that the Sox pitchers are psychologically now at a disadvantage when Mack is in CF instead of BA. It's getting in their heads, and Ozzie needs to fix that.

Hitmen77
08-27-2006, 01:06 AM
Yes, location was bad. The Twins were putting the ball in play, no doubt, but the Sox defense behind him was rather shaky, and I saw Contreras visibly bothered by this after the 2nd ball went over Mackowiak's head. Uribe came in to try to calm him down. Its obvious to everyone in the stadium except Ozzie that the Sox pitchers are psychologically now at a disadvantage when Mack is in CF instead of BA. It's getting in their heads, and Ozzie needs to fix that.

The Mack in CF problem has seemed painfully obvious to many Sox fans for well over a month now. Yet we still see him out there ever 3rd game or so. Two games in a row this series, right? Seems like we've had a handful of games now that fit the same pattern of Mack misplays a ball-inning extended just long enough to give up a few extra runs-Sox lose by 1 or 2 runs.

"A few games" doesn't seem like much over 162, but right now it might be the difference between 3rd place and 2.5 games out of 1st.

Why is Ozzie blind to this pattern? Anderson has been acceptable offensivly for over 2 months now. So what up? Can anyone provide a plausible explanation of why Mack is in CF so often.

I really feel bad for Mackowiak. It's not his fault. He just doesn't have the ability to play in CF.

And to pre-answer some of you replying by saying in teal "Yes, Mack is at fault for giving up those HRs", I guess you don't believe in grinding out a 1-run win any way we can. I guess if our pitchers struggle, we may as well throw in the towel because they're to blame and we shouldn't even bother trying anything (like, say, good defense) to bail them out? Pitching is to blame. So why bother shoring up the D as much as possible in such a key game by using a natural CF whose offensive numbers have been decent of late? :angry:

/end rant.

BainesHOF
08-27-2006, 01:07 AM
Starting Mackoviak over Anderson vs. Santana is the single worst move I've seen Guillen ever make. It defies all logic. It's the kind of thing that causes a manager to lose respect among the players.

How many balls does Mackoviak need to screw up before Guillen gets it through his thick head that he should never play center?

Lip Man 1
08-27-2006, 01:28 AM
Brian brings up what is to me an extremely important point.

Remember I was in Chicago when Jose 'hurt himself', I was actually on the field and saw him walk off and the following day as luck would have it I saw him in the lobby of the Westin hotel while waiting for the shuttle to O'Hare.

I can only tell you that when I got back to Idaho that Monday night and read the internet I was legitimately shocked at the news that Jose was going to be placed on the DL.

I saw with my own eyes the man, and he looked the furthest thing from being hurt that you can be. He was walking around the lobby of the Westin normally, talking on his cell phone and smiling before he went into an elevator upstairs. That's an odd way of being hurt don't ya think?

I read the papers where Ozzie was quoted as saying' he could make his next start if he needed to...'

The Sox were being cautious and there's nothing wrong with that but perhaps it backfired because Contreras hasn't come close to being the same dominating pitcher since.

Perhaps as Brian suggested that 'scare' screwed him completely up mentally. Coincidentally the Sox haven't been the same either. When Jose 'hurt' himself they led Detroit after that Sunday game vs. Kansas City by 3 1/2 games (I think), Tuesday night Haegar pitched and they immediately went into a month long .500 funk that valuted Detroit into the top spot.

Hindsight being what it is, perhaps the Sox 'out-thinked' themselves with Jose and maybe didn't need to DL him.

Lip

Chi Town Sox
08-27-2006, 01:29 AM
Rest him 1 or 2 starts... We have McCarthy for a reason..

Patrick134
08-27-2006, 01:33 AM
Brian brings up what is to me an extremely important point.

Remember I was in Chicago when Jose 'hurt himself', I was actually on the field and saw him walk off and the following day as luck would have it I saw him in the lobby of the Westin hotel while waiting for the shuttle to O'Hare.

I can only tell you that when I got back to Idaho that Monday night and read the internet I was legitimately shocked at the news that Jose was going to be placed on the DL.

I saw with my own eyes the man, and he looked the furthest thing from being hurt that you can be. He was walking around the lobby of the Westin normally, talking on his cell phone and smiling before he went into an elevator upstairs. That's an odd way of being hurt don't ya think?

I read the papers where Ozzie was quoted as saying' he could make his next start if he needed to...'

The Sox were being cautious and there's nothing wrong with that but perhaps it backfired because Contreras hasn't come close to being the same dominating pitcher since.

Perhaps as Brian suggested that 'scare' screwed him completely up mentally. Coincidentally the Sox haven't been the same either. When Jose 'hurt' himself they led Detroit after that Sunday game vs. Kansas City by 3 1/2 games (I think), Tuesday night Haegar pitched and they immediately went into a month long .500 funk that valuted Detroit into the top spot.

Hindsight being what it is, perhaps the Sox 'out-thinked' themselves with Jose and maybe didn't need to DL him.

Lip


How crazy. Being "injured" in the baseball sense(especially as a pitcher) doesn't mean you have to limp around , or wear a sling. Nor does it stop you from talking on a cellphone, or smiling. And I wouldn't expect to see him crying or in immense pain 24/7. I will say that with guaranteed contracts, injured players don't have the same worries you and I would, like not being paid if we're too injured to work.

Lip Man 1
08-27-2006, 01:39 AM
Patrick:

The Sox said he had a lower back/ nerve issue that was placing pressure down his leg. I assume that's true and have had an issue of 'sciatic nerve' once or twice (sorry about the spelling...). I can tell you that it was painful to walk.

Again I can only tell you what I saw, and that was he was walking normally. If his 'sciatic nerve' was bothering him I don't think he'd be able to do that. A nerve issue doesn't only happen when you are pitching, it's there constantly until treatment corrects it.

Plus you have Ozzie's direct comment himself to the papers about Jose being able to make his next start if he had to.

Take it for what it's worth.

Lip

Patrick134
08-27-2006, 01:41 AM
Patrick:

The Sox said he had a lower back/ nerve issue that was placing pressure down his leg. I assume that's true and have had an issue of 'sciatic nerve' once or twice (sorry about the spelling...). I can tell you that it was painful to walk.

Again I can only tell you what I saw, and that was he was walking normally. If his 'sciatic nerve' was bothering him I don't think he'd be able to do that. A nerve issue doesn't only happen when you are pitching, it's there constantly until treatment corrects it.

Plus you have Ozzie's direct comment himself to the papers about Jose being able to make his next start if he had to.

Take it for what it's worth.

Lip


Good points. Also I think all teams play around with how they word injuries to try and fake out the competition.

TheKittle
08-27-2006, 03:26 AM
Patrick:

The Sox said he had a lower back/ nerve issue that was placing pressure down his leg. I assume that's true and have had an issue of 'sciatic nerve' once or twice (sorry about the spelling...). I can tell you that it was painful to walk.

Again I can only tell you what I saw, and that was he was walking normally. If his 'sciatic nerve' was bothering him I don't think he'd be able to do that. A nerve issue doesn't only happen when you are pitching, it's there constantly until treatment corrects it.

Plus you have Ozzie's direct comment himself to the papers about Jose being able to make his next start if he had to.

Take it for what it's worth.

Lip

There are so many things you, or any other writer/fan, don't know about the situation. Jose could have just received treatment including a pain killer. The nerve may have affected him when he lifts his leg higher than when walking. You or I won't know.

To imply he maybe jacking it is going the route of Moronotti.

Mohoney
08-27-2006, 05:05 AM
The past 3 starts, Jose's pitches clearly don't have the same life as they had during a damn near year long win streak.

My sister told me, point blank, during the game at Comerica last week, "He's hurt." I disagreed, citing the game against Detroit at our place the previous week as exhibit A. I thought that he just had a few bad outings; the law of averages type thing that anybody could go through after going that many starts without a loss.

After being there tonight, however, I have to agree with her. Jose's arm angle is way too close to 3/4, his fastball is down in velocity to where he normally tops out at, and his forkball is missing its normal bite. Something must be wrong physically.

If Jose is indeed hurt, the 15 day DL, coupled with a Tim Redding call up, might happen. If it does, then Buehrle needs to step it up BIG TIME, starting TOMORROW, for us to be legitimate contenders. In fact, if Redding needs to make 3 or 4 starts in place of Contreras, the following 3 things need to happen:

1) Garland continues his sick dominance
2) Buehrle gives us 21+ innings of 2005 Buehrle caliber in his 3 starts
3) Either Garcia or Vazquez mans up and goes on a 3 game win streak

Of course, if Redding strings together 3 or 4 really good starts replacing Contreras, then only 2 of those 3 things needs to happen.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-27-2006, 09:40 AM
I think he's hurt. The most tellilng comment I recall was after his great start against Detroit, when he shut them down. Afterward, he said he felt very flexible that night. To me, that indicates his back is on and off. He seems to be throwing all arm, plus his velocity is down. He can't get his body into his pitches. I would like to see him get a couple starts off and put McCarthy in his place.

tick53
08-27-2006, 12:20 PM
I've been thinking that he's hurt for a long time now.

fusillirob1983
08-27-2006, 12:45 PM
I don't think Contreras is the guy McCarthy should replace. Yeah, he pitched like crap the past few games, but I think his early exit yesterday was more of a result of bad defense behind him.

ndgt10
08-27-2006, 12:53 PM
I think he should get back to one consistent arm angle delivery. This side arm crap is not good. Not good at all.

Lip Man 1
08-27-2006, 01:21 PM
Kittle:

I'm not hinting nor implying he's 'jaking' it.

I am suggesting that perhaps the Sox move to protect him by putting him on the DL when it may not have been needed (per Ozzie's direct comments) may have screwed with his head and hurt him.

The fact is Jose' hasn't been the same since. I'm not a doctor but I've never heard of a back / nerve issue lasting four months unless it's a disc. When I've had the problem it usually only lasts four days or so and I don't get medication or see someone.

Lip

MadetoOrta
08-27-2006, 01:29 PM
Yes, location was bad. The Twins were putting the ball in play, no doubt, but the Sox defense behind him was rather shaky, and I saw Contreras visibly bothered by this after the 2nd ball went over Mackowiak's head. Uribe came in to try to calm him down. Its obvious to everyone in the stadium except Ozzie that the Sox pitchers are psychologically now at a disadvantage when Mack is in CF instead of BA. It's getting in their heads, and Ozzie needs to fix that.

Agree 100%! For the third time I will remind everyone of the play in Game 2 of the 4 game series against KC. Gaithwright got on base with a bunt hit with one out. The next batter hit a major league pop-up to left that Pods somehow let drop for a hit. Instead of runner on first and two out, you had 1st and 2d with one out. JC was visibly upset after the routine flyball was screwed up. The next batter, Grudzelanak hit a goosed 2-0 pitch for a HR. 3-0 KC and game over. DEFENSE is the key to good pitching. How Guillen and KW [yes, he needs some blame here too] don't see the problem is beyond me. Mackowiak is a pinch-hitting specialist and back-up 3d baseman, not a CF. CF is the most important defensive position in the outfield and SS is the most important position on the infield. Should we play Jermaine Dye at SS? That's what we have here. Our outfield defense has cost us 5-10 wins. That is simply the difference from last year. If he played BA like he played Rowand, we'd be 25-30 over .500. It is so obvious. Why hasn't the media picked up on this? Oh well. As far as location is concerned, when a pitcher doesn't trust his defense, he aims instead of throws. That too causes "location" problems. It's about Mackowiak and Pods playing poor defense. Period! :angry: :angry:

EndemicSox
08-27-2006, 02:24 PM
Starting Mackoviak over Anderson vs. Santana is the single worst move I've seen Guillen ever make. It defies all logic. It's the kind of thing that causes a manager to lose respect among the players.

How many balls does Mackoviak need to screw up before Guillen gets it through his thick head that he should never play center?

Thank you. Time for the Oz to take it easy on the self-promoting, and get down to business.

bluestar
08-27-2006, 02:52 PM
He may be hurt, but I believe his problems began when he and Coop began tinkering around with his arm angles and release points. I'm not sure why they felt this was necessary, but since they started it, Contreras has been very inconsistent.

guillen4life13
08-27-2006, 08:59 PM
Patrick:

The Sox said he had a lower back/ nerve issue that was placing pressure down his leg. I assume that's true and have had an issue of 'sciatic nerve' once or twice (sorry about the spelling...). I can tell you that it was painful to walk.

Again I can only tell you what I saw, and that was he was walking normally. If his 'sciatic nerve' was bothering him I don't think he'd be able to do that. A nerve issue doesn't only happen when you are pitching, it's there constantly until treatment corrects it.

Plus you have Ozzie's direct comment himself to the papers about Jose being able to make his next start if he had to.

Take it for what it's worth.

Lip

Lip:

I know I'm young, and usually back problems are reserved for those out of their teens. I've had sciatica problems for the past year an a half, and from my own experiences, it's very hit or miss, meaning it hurts sometimes, but not others. I used to run track. I *could* have continued running with the problem, except that I had no idea when it would actually exhibit itself. Being a nerve problem, it's not something you can just "suck up." You literally are incapable of moving in certain ways when you're experiencing the pain, no matter how hard you try. But there are times you feel completely normal. And the pain is quite severe. There were certain streches (especially involving the hamstrings) that would help, but it still continued to be severe. What annoys me is that occasionally it still flares up even now, but when it was at its worst point, there would be stretches of as many as two-three hours where I felt completely normal. Certain motions definitely agitated it, and honestly, I felt much more comfortable standing than I did sitting with the problem, because the nerve does run down the buttocks.

Doctors told me to stop running for two months, though honestly I did not follow that advice too well. They also advised that when I started running again, I start running an easy 400m at a jog, and very gradually increase my distances and speeds. I used to be a mile runner.

Thus, based on what I know, the Sox made the right decision to shelve him. As for how he's doing now, I wish I knew. I haven't been able to watch a Sox game in over a month because of work, and now I'm in Miami, so there is no Sox feed.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-27-2006, 09:34 PM
now I'm in Miami, so there is no Sox feed.

Spring for MLB.com. It doesn't cost much.

guillen4life13
08-27-2006, 09:38 PM
Spring for MLB.com. It doesn't cost much.

I would except that I'm an austere living college student who uses a computer lab since I don't have his own. And I'm trying to focus on school for the time being.

I'm trying to get one real soon though. I just couldn't justify spending money on it right now. If they make the playoffs, the University will have it.

Plus my roommate's family and the Guillens are family friends. Know each other from Venezuela. So my roommate will definitely bring a TV from home (he lives in Miami also) and the University has a cable feed, so I'll be able to watch the playoffs when that time comes, provided the sox make it.

And I have high doubts.

Hitmen77
08-28-2006, 12:29 AM
Yes, Jose Contreras was hurt by poor defense on Saturday.

If we had a CF out there who could make those catches, we wouldn't have a thread running right now wondering if Jose is hurt.

Ozzie:
Pitching and DEFENSE wins championships.

soxinem1
08-28-2006, 05:44 PM
A little of both.

Jose does not seem very fluid or confident right now. Other than walking a ton of guys, he looks an awful lot like the guy we first got when he came here in '04.

But this Mackowiak in CF has to stop. There is a reason why he never played CF everyday in PIT, and we see it. In LF and RF he's been decent, but the CF play he has shown is just plain blah!!

From here on out, unless it is just a day off, BA should be in CF. I'd rather have Pods there when BA does not play, and Mackowiak in LF.

Ol' No. 2
08-28-2006, 05:46 PM
Yes, Jose Contreras was hurt by poor defense on Saturday.

If we had a CF out there who could make those catches, we wouldn't have a thread running right now wondering if Jose is hurt.

Ozzie:
Pitching and DEFENSE wins championships.You could have had Joe DiMaggio playing CF and Contreras would still have been throwing meatballs.

samram
08-28-2006, 05:51 PM
He may be hurt, but I believe his problems began when he and Coop began tinkering around with his arm angles and release points. I'm not sure why they felt this was necessary, but since they started it, Contreras has been very inconsistent.

But didn't they change his arm angle last season just before he went on his streak? It seems as if he lost the angle and he can't seem to find it except on rare occasions. As for the injury earlier this season, it seems as if it broke his rhythm more than anything.