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View Full Version : Walker's "game plan" vs Johan


0o0o0
08-26-2006, 01:27 AM
Link (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sside25.html)

This isn't very encouraging. We all know Santana's good, but you're the hitting coach. He HAS lost games in his career.

MrX
08-26-2006, 01:45 AM
Their usual gameplan of swinging at the changeup and missing it has never worked, may as well try something different. Considering the crap "as many righties as I can fit in it" line-up Ozzie will run out there tomorrow it probably is the best gameplan.

Lip Man 1
08-26-2006, 01:47 AM
O0O0O:

Only not against the White Sox right? (or very,very, very rarely...)

Lip

TheOldRoman
08-26-2006, 01:55 AM
Their usual gameplan of swinging at the changeup and missing it has never worked, may as well try something different. Considering the crap "as many righties as I can fit in it" line-up Ozzie will run out there tomorrow it probably is the best gameplan.
Did you read the article? His "gameplan" is for our pitching to not give up runs. I sure hope this was meant as a joke. If it isn't he shouldn't me a major league hitting coach. Santana's ERA is not 0. He has losses. He HAS given up 5+ runs in games, even this year.

If the Sox continue in neutral and miss the playoffs, I would hope Kenny calls for Walker's head. I don't think he is a very good hitting coach. Our offense is VERY streaky, and not patient whatsoever. We have lost nearly as many games on bad hitting as we have bad pitching, and nothing is changing. If Walker can't devise a better "gameplan" than putting up 2 runs over 7, he needs to catch the next train to Joliet to hit fly balls for the Jackhammers.

MrX
08-26-2006, 02:14 AM
If you thought the bottom of the order was ugly before, the probable top 3 guys in the order tomorrow (Pablo, Gooch, and JD) are the only Sox players batting over .200 against Johan this season. (Cintron is too but he only has 2 hits in 7 ABs.)

Good thing they pissed away the game tonight

batmanZoSo
08-26-2006, 02:39 AM
The odds of knocking him around are, let's say, not good. Contreras has to pitch his ass off, period. What do you want Walker to do? You don't just figure out a great pitcher. There really isn't a plan, either, it's more about the team's mindset.

JB98
08-26-2006, 02:46 AM
The odds of knocking him around are, let's say, not good. Contreras has to pitch his ass off, period. What do you want Walker to do? You don't just figure out a great pitcher. There really isn't a plan, either, it's more about the team's mindset.

I feel like the team throws up its hands and gives up when they face Santana, and truthfully, the players are taking their cues from the coaching staff. Every time we face this guy, Ozzie and Walker are in the paper kissing Johan's ass and talking about how great he is.

You know something? He isn't God. He's lost five games this year. He had one start last month where the Royals scored five runs off him. It's OK to respect a pitcher who has won the Cy Young, but it's not acceptable to fear him. I honestly wonder if our hitters are resigned to losing the battle against this guy.

Mohoney
08-26-2006, 02:55 AM
What would you rather see tomorrow?

1) We tag Santana up for 5 or 6 runs and waltz to victory.

2) Contreras outduels Santana, we win 2-1 or 3-2.

Actually, for the psyche of our team, I would rather have the latter. As crazy as it sounds, if you win a close one tomorrow, and beat the Twins at their own game with their best on the mound, I think it could be contagious for Buehrle Sunday. If we then turn around and win behind a strong Buehrle outing on Sunday, this team can go into the long-awaited off day Monday on a definite high note and get ready to make some hay in the next 16 game stretch.

All I can ask for is to get Detroit's lead down to 3 by September 18th.

batmanZoSo
08-26-2006, 03:01 AM
I feel like the team throws up its hands and gives up when they face Santana, and truthfully, the players are taking their cues from the coaching staff. Every time we face this guy, Ozzie and Walker are in the paper kissing Johan's ass and talking about how great he is.

You know something? He isn't God. He's lost five games this year. He had one start last month where the Royals scored five runs off him. It's OK to respect a pitcher who has won the Cy Young, but it's not acceptable to fear him. I honestly wonder if our hitters are resigned to losing the battle against this guy.

That's crazy, they're not thinking that. And who said they fear him? As for the coaches, they're just being honest. What if someone asked you "what's your plan to hit Bob Gibson?" There's no ****ing answer!

1. You need good pitching
2. You have to play as a team on the offensive side--conservative swinging all around, try your best to see as many pitches possible, and do every little thing right when you do get a guy on base. Contreras is a damn good pitcher himself...you may only need 1 run, who knows??

batmanZoSo
08-26-2006, 03:02 AM
What would you rather see tomorrow?

1) We tag Santana up for 5 or 6 runs and waltz to victory.

2) Contreras outduels Santana, we win 2-1 or 3-2.

Actually, for the psyche of our team, I would rather have the latter. As crazy as it sounds, if you win a close one tomorrow, and beat the Twins at their own game with their best on the mound, I think it could be contagious for Buehrle Sunday. If we then turn around and win behind a strong Buehrle outing on Sunday, this team can go into the long-awaited off day Monday on a definite high note and get ready to make some hay in the next 16 game stretch.

All I can ask for is to get Detroit's lead down to 3 by September 18th.

Can we combine the best parts of 1 and 2? 6 off Santana and Contreras throws a shutout. :nod:

JB98
08-26-2006, 03:09 AM
That's crazy, they're not thinking that. And who said they fear him? As for the coaches, they're just being honest. What if someone asked you "what's your plan to hit Bob Gibson?" There's no ****ing answer!

1. You need good pitching
2. You have to play as a team on the offensive side--conservative swinging all around, try your best to see as many pitches possible, and do every little thing right when you do get a guy on base. Contreras is a damn good pitcher himself...you may only need 1 run, who knows??

If they don't have a plan, then shame on them. Hawk has said it a million times, "A bad idea is better than no idea at all."

One thing is for certain: If the hitting coach's plan is to hope our pitcher throws a shutout, that's lame ass.

Mr. White Sox
08-26-2006, 05:59 AM
Hawk has said it a million times, "A bad idea is better than no idea at all."

:reinsy
circa 1986
"Hey, I've got an idea. Let's make Ken Harrelson our GM."


Whoops. No idea would've been better there...

chaerulez
08-26-2006, 08:33 AM
If the Sox don't think they can beat Santana or at least have a shot of success at him, what kind of attitude is that? Act like the world champions and believe that you will own Santana every time out, he's a good pitcher, but we have a good lineup. Those comments make it seem like they are just going to mail it in if things don't go their way.

dickallen15
08-26-2006, 08:39 AM
That fact remains if the Sox give up 4 or 5 tonight, odds are its a loss. Lefties are hitting .263 against Santana and righties .211. You take his change away somewhat being lefty, so that could explain some of the difference, the other being only great left handed hitters probably face him.

dickallen15
08-26-2006, 08:40 AM
If the Sox don't think they can beat Santana or at least have a shot of success at him, what kind of attitude is that? Act like the world champions and believe that you will own Santana every time out, he's a good pitcher, but we have a good lineup. Those comments make it seem like they are just going to mail it in if things don't go their way.

The problem is that they could "own" Santana tonight and still lose. The rotation, with the exception of Garland, has been brutal lately. Contreras needs to have a great start tonight.

kitekrazy
08-26-2006, 09:35 AM
What would you rather see tomorrow?

1) We tag Santana up for 5 or 6 runs and waltz to victory.



You are confused with last year's team. A 6 run lead doesn't guarantee a Sox victory.

Ol' No. 2
08-26-2006, 10:04 AM
If they don't have a plan, then shame on them. Hawk has said it a million times, "A bad idea is better than no idea at all."

One thing is for certain: If the hitting coach's plan is to hope our pitcher throws a shutout, that's lame ass.Nowhere in the article did it say they had no plan. They all know Santana well enough to know what they have to do against him. It's not the plan, it's the execution that's been faulty. The way to beat Santana is to outlast him. Your starter has to keep you close. Walker is just stating the obvious, which, as usual, passes for revelations in Joe Cowley's columns.

0o0o0
08-26-2006, 10:15 AM
As for the coaches, they're just being honest. What if someone asked you "what's your plan to hit Bob Gibson?" There's no ****ing answer!

Yeah, but that's something that people like us should be saying. You know, fans. Not the damn hitting coach. It's your job to figure something out. And if you really do think you're hopeless against him, don't come out and say it.

Imagine Coop before a game against the Yankees saying the way you beat that lineup is for the offense to put 10 runs on the board.

Soxfanspcu11
08-26-2006, 10:41 AM
I've never liked Greg Walker, he just seems to do absolutely nothing. I'm sure I will get the few people who say that he is amazing, and go nuts on me for hating him, and they will be unable to tell me why he is good, but whatever.

Someone needs to remind the Sox that they have ALREADY BEATEN SANTANA ONCE THIS YEAR!!!! Not only is he beatable, but they have already done it! It's not a pipedream that it can be done, it HAS been done. Go do it again!

And as others in this thread have said, it's not like his season ERA is 0.00. I do agree that Jose has to pitch great, but geez, everyone needs to stop crying and whining every single time Johan takes the hill. That defeatist attitude makes me want to slap nuns. :angry:

dickallen15
08-26-2006, 11:07 AM
I've never liked Greg Walker, he just seems to do absolutely nothing. I'm sure I will get the few people who say that he is amazing, and go nuts on me for hating him, and they will be unable to tell me why he is good, but whatever.

Someone needs to remind the Sox that they have ALREADY BEATEN SANTANA ONCE THIS YEAR!!!! Not only is he beatable, but they have already done it! It's not a pipedream that it can be done, it HAS been done. Go do it again!

And as others in this thread have said, it's not like his season ERA is 0.00. I do agree that Jose has to pitch great, but geez, everyone needs to stop crying and whining every single time Johan takes the hill. That defeatist attitude makes me want to slap nuns. :angry:

So you give Walker no credit for the White Sox offense, probably the best in franchise history even though they play with a leadoff hitter that brings nothing to the table, and a CF that hit worse than many pitchers the first half of the season, but when they don't score 10 runs in a game it somehow is his fault. GMAB. The pitching staff has the same ERA as the Cleveland Indians. Look at their record. It speaks volumes for how good the offense has been.

dickallen15
08-26-2006, 11:09 AM
Yeah, but that's something that people like us should be saying. You know, fans. Not the damn hitting coach. It's your job to figure something out. And if you really do think you're hopeless against him, don't come out and say it.

Imagine Coop before a game against the Yankees saying the way you beat that lineup is for the offense to put 10 runs on the board.

And Cooper isn't going to say exactly how they plan to get somebody out in the paper either. The Sox will have a plan of attack against Santana, and hopefully it works. BTW, the Sox aren't the only team that doesn't seem to be able to do much with Santana's pitches.

TheOldRoman
08-26-2006, 11:23 AM
So you give Walker no credit for the White Sox offense, probably the best in franchise history even though they play with a leadoff hitter that brings nothing to the table, and a CF that hit worse than many pitchers the first half of the season, but when they don't score 10 runs in a game it somehow is his fault. GMAB. The pitching staff has the same ERA as the Cleveland Indians. Look at their record. It speaks volumes for how good the offense has been.
Best offense in franchise history? I doubt it. Good offenses can score all the time, they don't score 14 one night and 2 the next. Good offenses can hit lefties. Good offenses aren't owned by horrible pitchers on a regular basis. Good offenses can work the count.
Our offense this year is very streaky. They put up big numbers, but it is greatly eye candy. I don't consider our offense very reliable.

Soxfanspcu11
08-26-2006, 11:28 AM
So you give Walker no credit for the White Sox offense, probably the best in franchise history even though they play with a leadoff hitter that brings nothing to the table, and a CF that hit worse than many pitchers the first half of the season, but when they don't score 10 runs in a game it somehow is his fault. GMAB. The pitching staff has the same ERA as the Cleveland Indians. Look at their record. It speaks volumes for how good the offense has been.

No, I give Walker no credit. The good hitters on this team are good hitters because of themselves, not because of Walker. Jermaine was a good hitter in KC and Oakland, Thome in Cleveland and Philly, Konerko here, but he has always been.

If Walker did anything positive he would help out the guys who are not naturally good hitters, or at least are not right now, like Uribe, Anderson, Pods. And just to use Pods as a reference, he has some of the WORST AB's I have ever seen, Walker should be doing something about that. Walker also said that Uribe would be a much better hitter if he were patient. Well guess what Greg, it is your job to teach him to be patient.

And it's not all fundamentals either, it's leadership. Getting down on your team or thinking you don't have a chance against a certain pitcher is horse****! What kind of example is he sending to his guys?? It's ridiculous, and completely unprofessional of a coach or manager.

dickallen15
08-26-2006, 12:06 PM
Best offense in franchise history? I doubt it. Good offenses can score all the time, they don't score 14 one night and 2 the next. Good offenses can hit lefties. Good offenses aren't owned by horrible pitchers on a regular basis. Good offenses can work the count.
Our offense this year is very streaky. They put up big numbers, but it is greatly eye candy. I don't consider our offense very reliable.

Not as streaky as you would believe. How has this offense been owned by horrible pitchers? They are second in runs scored. So you say they can't hit lefties, horrible pitchers, or good pitchers. Its amazing they win 1 game. The problem with this team is not offense. Its pitching. The White Sox don't win unless they score a lot of runs. They have won 5 games total scoring 3 runs or less. They won 5 of those types of games in April 2005 alone. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: . You deserve 1000 of these. Good offenses can score all the time you say, who scores more than the White Sox? 1 team. Last year, the team used to win if it scored 3 runs a lot more often than it does now. If the rate was the same this year, the record would even be better than last year. They have had 20 games total where they have scored less than 3 runs. I bet that stacks up pretty well to any other team in baseball. Some other AL contender's total number of games scoring 2 runs or less: NY 27, Min 30, Det 31, Bos 25. So it looks like the White Sox offense seems to be more consistent than theirs. The White Sox offense puts up at least 3 runs more often than any other team in baseball. It would be nice if a starting rotation being paid $50 million could hold up their end of the bargain. If Walker is bad, what's Cooper's problem? Its the players not the coaches.

TheOldRoman
08-26-2006, 12:32 PM
Not as streaky as you would believe. How has this offense been owned by horrible pitchers? They are second in runs scored. So you say they can't hit lefties, horrible pitchers, or good pitchers. Its amazing they win 1 game. The problem with this team is not offense. Its pitching. The White Sox don't win unless they score a lot of runs. They have won 5 games total scoring 3 runs or less. They won 5 of those types of games in April 2005 alone. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: . You deserve 1000 of these. Good offenses can score all the time you say, who scores more than the White Sox? 1 team. Last year, the team used to win if it scored 3 runs a lot more often than it does now. If the rate was the same this year, the record would even be better than last year. No, much streakier than you realize. Our pitching has been bad, but we have lost nearly as many games because of bad hitting as bad pitching. Last Tues against Runylves Hernandez was the perfect summary of our year. Herndandez is a horrible pitcher, and he didn't have "it" that day. He couldn't find the zone. What did our hitters do? Swing at balls in the dirt, swing at pitches a foot outside, and if they didn't hit a weak groundout on the first two pitches, watch strike three. If you go into a game against a pitcher who's ERA is over 6, you better score at least 5 runs against him. There have been many times this year when I was screaming at the TV because a pitcher was having a VERY hittable night, but our hitters got themselves out by overswinging or not having patience. Our hitters don't work pitchers like they should. They get themselves out more than anyone else.

Need I list the ****ty pitchers who have humiliated our hitters this year? I can think of three in the last week alone. We have been too inconsistent. 14 runs one night, 4 runs over the next two. How many times has our offense done nothing against bad pitchers? How many times have they slept through the first 6 innings only to score a few runs later and make it close? There is no reason a predominately righty lineup shouldn't be able to hit lefthanders. There is no reason why a team that is supposedly the best offense should be owned by the likes of John Wasdin, Runlyves Hernandez, John Koronka, Jake Westbrook, John Rheinecker, and a cast of "not read for primetime players".

JB98
08-26-2006, 01:25 PM
I've never liked Greg Walker, he just seems to do absolutely nothing. I'm sure I will get the few people who say that he is amazing, and go nuts on me for hating him, and they will be unable to tell me why he is good, but whatever.

Someone needs to remind the Sox that they have ALREADY BEATEN SANTANA ONCE THIS YEAR!!!! Not only is he beatable, but they have already done it! It's not a pipedream that it can be done, it HAS been done. Go do it again!

And as others in this thread have said, it's not like his season ERA is 0.00. I do agree that Jose has to pitch great, but geez, everyone needs to stop crying and whining every single time Johan takes the hill. That defeatist attitude makes me want to slap nuns. :angry:

There seems to be an attitude of, "Oh, well. It's Santana. We have no chance," every time we face him. I'm tired of it. We can't afford to say, "Oh, well, It's Santana," anymore. The Twins are pushing us around in our house again this year, and enough is enough. It's time to go out there and beat this guy.

BeefyD
08-26-2006, 01:39 PM
We can't afford to say, "Oh, well, It's Santana," anymore.

Yes, we could easily say that if we didn't piss the other games away. Listen, if all we can do is split against the Royals, we're not going to beat Santana, who has been .702 in the last 6 years. I believe it was ESPN radio who mentioned last series vs. Twins that for a record after the All-Star break, he's been something like 36-3 since 2002.

The Sox are in the weeds and need to step up. As Ozzie said last night "If we don't wake up, they will sweep us."

JUribe1989
08-26-2006, 02:40 PM
These guys are major league hitters. It's not like Santana is Bob Gibson or anything. He has a 3 ERA. It shouldn't be too much to ask if they could just hit him once.

batmanZoSo
08-26-2006, 03:31 PM
These guys are major league hitters. It's not like Santana is Bob Gibson or anything. He has a 3 ERA. It shouldn't be too much to ask if they could just hit him once.

A 3 ERA in the American League, today, with a normal pitching mound is pretty damn good. He may not be Bob Gibson, but against us he might as well be.

dickallen15
08-26-2006, 04:15 PM
[quote=TheOldRoman]We have been too inconsistent. 14 runs one night, 4 runs over the next two. How many times has our offense done nothing against bad pitchers? How many times have they slept through the first 6 innings only to score a few runs later and make it close? quote]

Well if you go over the games you will see they have scored 14 runs zero times this season. They have scored 13 runs several times,
The first time they scored 13 they won, the next game they scored 7 and lost, the next game they scored 4 and won.
The next time they scored 13 they won, followed by scoring 1 and losing followed by scoring 8 and winning.
They scored 20 in a win, followed that up by scoring 13 and won, they then scored 1 the next game, but won, after that they scored 7 and won followed by 6 and won, then scored 9 and lost.
The next time they scored 13 they won, followed that up by scoring 4 and won, then scored 11 and won followed by scoring 2 and lost followed by scoring 6 and lost.
The last time they scored 13 they won, they followed that by scoring 7 and lost then scored 8 and won.
Your theory that they score a ton and then go into the tank is false. They consistently score runs. Over the course of a 162 game schedule, some bad pitchers are going to win some games. The Sox still have the 5th best record in baseball. So its not like they consistently lose. They most likely will have 4 guys with over 100 RBI, and maybe 4 guys with 35 homers. Its the first year they have ever had more than 1 guy with 35 homers. The offense is not the problem at all.

MarySwiss
08-26-2006, 04:16 PM
As Ozzie said last night "If we don't wake up, they will sweep us."

And that says it all right there. Ozzie, it's on you. Wake them the hell up!

dickallen15
08-26-2006, 04:19 PM
The White Sox have lost 11 games this season when they have scored 6 or more runs.

BadBobbyJenks
08-26-2006, 04:38 PM
Sit on the fast ball or the change up and pray...Lets see how it works out, We need Jose Contreras of 2005 2nd half 2006 first half tonight

Ol' No. 2
08-26-2006, 04:49 PM
There seems to be an attitude of, "Oh, well. It's Santana. We have no chance," every time we face him. I'm tired of it. We can't afford to say, "Oh, well, It's Santana," anymore. The Twins are pushing us around in our house again this year, and enough is enough. It's time to go out there and beat this guy.How, exactly, do you know this? Do you spend a lot of time in the clubhouse? Have you heard players say that?

BadBobbyJenks
08-26-2006, 04:51 PM
How, exactly, do you know this? Do you spend a lot of time in the clubhouse? Have you heard players say that?


Seriously this is definately a fans view(mine included) of the situation but there is no ****ing way the 25 professional athletes on our team have the mindset that its Johan, game over before it started

markopat
08-26-2006, 05:10 PM
What would you rather see tomorrow?

1) We tag Santana up for 5 or 6 runs and waltz to victory.

2) Contreras outduels Santana, we win 2-1 or 3-2.



I'll take us scoring 6 earned runs in the first...they can score 1 in the 9th...and be happy as a pig in **** personally.

CLR01
08-26-2006, 10:17 PM
It's to bad the pitchers didn't listen to Walker. :angry:

Hitmen77
08-26-2006, 11:39 PM
And that says it all right there. Ozzie, it's on you. Wake them the hell up!

Yeah, no kidding. Can someone explain why we keep seeing Mack in CF? What has Anderson's average been since mid-June? I'd hazard to guess close to .300. So, why aren't we putting him and his D out there to help our struggling starting pitchers?

Brian26
08-26-2006, 11:44 PM
It appeared part of the gameplan tonight was to jump on the first pitch whenever possible. In three different innings, the Sox batters grounded out or flew out on the first pitch to make the first out. Contreras was around 75 pitches in the 3rd, while Santana was at that point after the 6th. I was hoping the Sox batters would be a little more patient at the plate, but maybe Walker thinks jumping on the first pitch is the better strategy.

dickallen15
08-27-2006, 08:13 AM
Whatever the game plan was against Santana, it was successful as the offense scored 7 runs which should be enough to win. Anyone saying this offense is inconsistent and likes 2005's offense a lot better has some research to do. This offense has scored 2 runs or less 20 times this season, fewest in baseball. Last year at this point of the season, the offense had score 2 runs or less 33 times. The reason this team is not as good, is not Greg Walker, its not the offense, its the pitching and part of the pitching is the woeful defense. Mackowiak in CF is a bad idea that apparently everyone but Ozzie and Kenny seem to grasp. Every error or hit batter seems to score. Last year at a similar point in the season, the White Sox had won 11 games scoring 1 or 2 runs. They have done that 2 times this year.