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Viva Medias B's
08-24-2006, 07:23 AM
Babe Ruth is well on his way to winning the "Best Yankee Ever" poll.

Today we reach our climax. This will be a 48-hour poll.

Madvora
08-24-2006, 07:38 AM
Does Minoso really have the tilde on the "n"?

NoShoesJoe
08-24-2006, 07:46 AM
You can't leave Joe Jackson off the list. .356 lifetime BA and 6 seasons with the Sox.

Although everyone else on the list is great too.

TornLabrum
08-24-2006, 07:56 AM
Frank Thomas is the best player ever to wear a Sox uniform. Period.

Jackson? Better with Cleveland.

davenicholson
08-24-2006, 07:57 AM
I am not surprised that Thomas has the early lead, and if the poll was for the greatest hitter in Sox history, I would agree. But the greatest player? Not in my opinion. Without any deep thought, Joe Jackson, Nellie Fox and Luke Appling immediately spring to mind.
Oh, and where's the love for my namesake?

voodoochile
08-24-2006, 08:33 AM
I am not surprised that Thomas has the early lead, and if the poll was for the greatest hitter in Sox history, I would agree. But the greatest player? Not in my opinion. Without any deep thought, Joe Jackson, Nellie Fox and Luke Appling immediately spring to mind.
Oh, and where's the love for my namesake?

Is it Frank's fault he played 1B? If you are going to evaluate a player based on worth to the team throughout their career, no one was more valuable than Frank, period.

If Frank played 1B through his career would you then say, "but defense isn't important at 1B, so I'm not going to count that."

He either played a position where defense is the last thought you make OR he played a position where defense is non-existent. Either way, devaluing his contribution because of defense is ridiculous, IMO.

Oh and in case anyone was wondering. I chose Frank. Go get that 500 big man and then pick up a microphone, tell the haters to kiss your ass and stomp off into the sunset...

ode to veeck
08-24-2006, 08:45 AM
Somebody please fix this poll! It really has to include both Joe Jackson and Eddie Collins, the later with lifetime numbers of .333BA, .424obp, 3300+ hits, 1800 runs, 1499 BB, averaging 75 Ribbies/year over 25 playing years, almost all of these in the top 15 or so ever. I love Harold and Minnie in particular, but Eddie and Joe have to be in the list too. Jackson's abbreviated 13 season career has some of the most spectacular all-time stats as well, like averaging .356BA (3rd all-time) and 95 ribbies / year.

Viva Medias B's
08-24-2006, 08:49 AM
Somebody please fix this poll! It really has to include both Joe Jackson and Eddie Collins, the later with lifetime numbers of .333BA, .424obp, 3300+ hits, 1800 runs, 1499 BB, averaging 75 Ribbies/year over 25 playing years, almost all of these in the top 15 or so ever. I love Harold and Minnie in particular, but Eddie and Joe have to be in the list too. Jackson's abbreviated 13 season career has some of the most spectacular all-time stats as well, like averaging .356BA (3rd all-time) and 95 ribbies / year.

I have been going by what is on the DHL ballot, as flawed as it may be. For example, where is Carlton Fisk? However, you and every other WSIer has the ability to cast a write-in vote for Jackson and Collins.

Yes, the tilde goes over Miñoso's name.

ode to veeck
08-24-2006, 08:49 AM
I voted for other because of the gross omissions in the list, but I would prefer to give three votes (in old Chicago tradition of voting early and often), one each to Hurt, Jackson, and Collins, with strong runner ups to Minnie and Nellie.

soxfan13
08-24-2006, 08:50 AM
Is it Frank's fault he played 1B? If you are going to evaluate a player based on worth to the team throughout their career, no one was more valuable than Frank, period.

If Frank played 1B through his career would you then say, "but defense isn't important at 1B, so I'm not going to count that."

He either played a position where defense is the last thought you make OR he played a position where defense is non-existent. Either way, devaluing his contribution because of defense is ridiculous, IMO.

Oh and in case anyone was wondering. I chose Frank. Go get that 500 big man and then pick up a microphone, tell the haters to kiss your ass and stomp off into the sunset...

I see nothing wrong with what dave said my definition of greatest player would be defense and offense. I respected Frank for his contributions he made to the White Sox, but cant bring myself to vote for a one dimensional player. Yes, as dave said, he his the greatest "hitter" in Sox history but greatest player no.

ode to veeck
08-24-2006, 08:50 AM
I have been going by what is on the DHL ballot, as flawed as it may be. However, you and every other WSIer has the ability to cast a write-in vote for Jackson and Collins.

Yes, the tilde goes over Miñoso's name.

Why are we constrained by the shortcomings of the DHL stupidity? At least for a poll on our beloved Sox.

And Yep, Fisk should be on the list as well

skottyj242
08-24-2006, 08:52 AM
Where's the love for Ross Gload?

soxfan13
08-24-2006, 08:54 AM
Where's the love for Ross Gload.

NICE!!!!

Frater Perdurabo
08-24-2006, 08:55 AM
Frank Thomas, without question.

He still should be with the team, too, but that train has sailed. :tongue:

my5thbench
08-24-2006, 08:58 AM
I was lookin' for Dick Allen....I know it was brief but he was awesome

Heffalump
08-24-2006, 09:03 AM
I am not surprised that Thomas has the early lead, and if the poll was for the greatest hitter in Sox history, I would agree. But the greatest player? Not in my opinion. Without any deep thought, Joe Jackson, Nellie Fox and Luke Appling immediately spring to mind.
Oh, and where's the love for my namesake?


Joe Jackson only player 4.5 seasons with the Sox and Had his stronger years with Cleveland. That's why he is not on the Sox/ all-time great list.

With honorary mentions for Fox and Appling, Frank Thomas is clearly the greatest.

soxinem1
08-24-2006, 09:16 AM
Frank Thomas is the best player ever to wear a Sox uniform. Period.

Jackson? Better with Cleveland.

I couldn't have said it any better. Plus, Joe was here only six years. One thing the Sox have not had in their history is a lot of players who played a long, continuous time here. Frank did, and probably should have finished here, but it is what it is.

Frank is #1, hands down, and no disrespect to Mr. Baines, for he was no slouch either.

NoShoesJoe
08-24-2006, 09:17 AM
Joe Jackson only player 4.5 seasons with the Sox and Had his stronger years with Cleveland. That's why he is not on the Sox/ all-time great list.

With honorary mentions for Fox and Appling, Frank Thomas is clearly the greatest.
Au contraire, mon frare. I'd argue that the fact that it doesn't necessarily matter how many seasons, but with what team that player is most identified with. I stand by my Jackson pick. Thomas was/is great, I agree, as was Collins.

kevingrt
08-24-2006, 09:28 AM
Joe Crede anyone?

It's got to be the Big Hurt though. Most prolific hitter in White Sox history and between him and Griffey the most dominant hitters of the 90's. What he did on the field was magnificent to watch. If he doesn't make it to the HOF on first ballot that would be a complete shame. Especially considering he sitll has a few more years to play and barring injury should easily reach 500 HR's which usually guarentees a spot in the HOF. BTW the numbers he is putting up this year aren't to damn bad themselves.

downstairs
08-24-2006, 09:43 AM
I see nothing wrong with what dave said my definition of greatest player would be defense and offense. I respected Frank for his contributions he made to the White Sox, but cant bring myself to vote for a one dimensional player. Yes, as dave said, he his the greatest "hitter" in Sox history but greatest player no.

But can't one's contributions in either defense or offense far outshine their drawbacks in the other?

I mean... who talks about Hank Aaron's or Babe Ruth's (post-pitching) defense? Who talks about Ozzie Smith's offense?

Law11
08-24-2006, 09:50 AM
Joe jackson

davenicholson
08-24-2006, 09:50 AM
Is it Frank's fault he played 1B? If you are going to evaluate a player based on worth to the team throughout their career, no one was more valuable than Frank, period.

If Frank played 1B through his career would you then say, "but defense isn't important at 1B, so I'm not going to count that."

He either played a position where defense is the last thought you make OR he played a position where defense is non-existent. Either way, devaluing his contribution because of defense is ridiculous, IMO.

Not blaming him at all. In fact, it seems that his career is pretty much evenly split between DH and 1B. And if he had played (well) at 1B his entire career, I would have been more inclined to pick him. In choosing the "greatest White Sox player ever", I take into account both offense *and* defense. But I don't want to get into the position of having to belittle Thomas' accomplishments in order to make my point, because I admire what he did at the plate with the Sox. So I'll just quit now.

batmanZoSo
08-24-2006, 09:50 AM
It's so obviously Frank. He ranks statistically among the top 20 hitters who ever played the game. As far as righties go, he's probably in the top 5. Defense is null and void at that point.

ode to veeck
08-24-2006, 09:53 AM
But can't one's contributions in either defense or offense far outshine their drawbacks in the other?

I mean... who talks about Hank Aaron's or Babe Ruth's (post-pitching) defense? Who talks about Ozzie Smith's offense?

Ozzie Smith was a good player, but an abomination HOF choice based on D alone and some basestealing abilities while in reality a mediocre BA and OBP. Ozzie Guillen was just as good defensively, a weekly "regular" on ESPN's "plays of the week" throughout his career

TheOldRoman
08-24-2006, 09:56 AM
Does Minoso really have the tilde on the "n"?
No. If it did, it would be pronounced "Minyoso".

Palehose13
08-24-2006, 09:59 AM
Frank Thomas, no question.

voodoochile
08-24-2006, 10:01 AM
Ozzie Smith was a good player, but an abomination HOF choice based on D alone and some basestealing abilities while in reality a mediocre BA and OBP. Ozzie Guillen was just as good defensively, a weekly "regular" on ESPN's "plays of the week" throughout his career

Actually, Ruth played CF and was known as a good defender with an amazing arm. No shock since he pitched.

DaleJRFan
08-24-2006, 10:05 AM
Joe Jackson? Luke Appling? Ol' Nellie?? No.

This poll should have one option, Frank Thomas.

ode to veeck
08-24-2006, 10:07 AM
Au contraire, mon frare. I'd argue that the fact that it doesn't necessarily matter how many seasons, but with what team that player is most identified with. I stand by my Jackson pick. Thomas was/is great, I agree, as was Collins.

Jackson and Collins also lead the Sox to a WS, both with .400+BA in the '17 Sox championship. They were also leaders on the team on the dominating '19 Back Sox team. Collins also lead the A's to 4 WS appearances and 3 championships in a 5 year period '10-'14. He also notably skippered the Sox to their only winning seasons in the stretch from '21-'36, when he was the managers from late '24 through end of '26.

PKalltheway
08-24-2006, 10:08 AM
I went with the Big Hurt. No disrespect to any of the other guys like Luke "Ol' aches and pains" Appling, but when I think of the greatest players in White Sox history, Frank Thomas' name comes to mind first. Thomas all the way.

ode to veeck
08-24-2006, 10:08 AM
Actually, Ruth played CF and was known as a good defender with an amazing arm. No shock since he pitched.

Babe was a very, very good pitcher as well, but obviously much more valuable in the lineup every day

Heffalump
08-24-2006, 11:03 AM
Au contraire, mon frare. I'd argue that the fact that it doesn't necessarily matter how many seasons, but with what team that player is most identified with. I stand by my Jackson pick. Thomas was/is great, I agree, as was Collins.

the only reason he is identified with the White Sox over Cleveland is due to the Black Sox Scandal. If that makes him the greatest Sox ever, then I guess MY logic is way off.

misty60481
08-24-2006, 11:07 AM
I voted for Big Frank but also think the old timers have been forgotten.. I think Ed Walshs name should be included a lifetime 1.82 ERA is unbelievable now..
Why dont they break it down to greatest player in different eras--
1800s to 1920-
1920 to WW2-
WW 2 to Expansion
Expansion to present

stacksedwards
08-24-2006, 11:09 AM
Kelly Wunsch.

Its gotta be Frank. Only guy on the list with a WS ring of the bunch. Oww yea 400 plus homeruns (will get to 500), life time .300 hitter, clean player in the roid era, MVP winner, and he had his own Super Nintendo game.

Rockin Robin
08-24-2006, 11:10 AM
Jaime Navarro

I voted for the big man. His span of dominance in the 90's was unmatched.

mrfourni
08-24-2006, 11:12 AM
http://images.bidville.com/uploads/2003.06.24/98-PIN-Navarro.jpg
I think you guys forgot about me, that's ok though. I wrote myself in.

*edit I would of beat you Robin, but i needed a picture

rwcescato
08-24-2006, 11:13 AM
Why is Shoeless Joe not on the list. He is my vote.

itsnotrequired
08-24-2006, 11:15 AM
Frank. Is this even debateable?

viagracat
08-24-2006, 11:19 AM
I'll admit it, I voted for Appling. 20 years with the Sox, .310 lifetime average, 2,749 hits, solid defensive shortstop, seven-time All-Star selection and so on.

Agreed, no one in my lifetime provided more Sox thrills than Big Frank. But I'm sticking with Ol' Aches & Pains.

Rockin Robin
08-24-2006, 11:19 AM
http://images.bidville.com/uploads/2003.06.24/98-PIN-Navarro.jpg
I think you guys forgot about me, that's ok though. I wrote myself in.

*edit I would of beat you Robin, but i needed a picture

haha, you win

god, what awful memories that brings back

nedlug
08-24-2006, 11:23 AM
http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/photos/010426.cfoa.singleton.jpg
'Nuff said.

voodoochile
08-24-2006, 11:31 AM
I voted for Big Frank but also think the old timers have been forgotten.. I think Ed Walshs name should be included a lifetime 1.82 ERA is unbelievable now..
Why dont they break it down to greatest player in different eras--
1800s to 1920-
1920 to WW2-
WW 2 to Expansion
Expansion to present

1800's? :?:

Dan Mega
08-24-2006, 11:35 AM
Frank Thomas. He was the best hitter in the 1990's with the exception of maybe Griffey Jr. He would have another MVP trophy on his shelf if it wasn't for steroid-Giambi robbing him of it a few years back.

cleanwsox
08-24-2006, 11:37 AM
god, what awful memories that brings back


So you're saying the walk and Hit counter in left field was a bad memory? :D:

itsnotrequired
08-24-2006, 11:38 AM
1800's? :?:

Greatest Sox years ever!

Dick Allen
08-24-2006, 11:40 AM
I was lookin' for Dick Allen....I know it was brief but he was awesomeAmen, sir.

slavko
08-24-2006, 12:00 PM
No. If it did, it would be pronounced "Minyoso".

It did and it should have been. People weren't so ethnically aware (of tildes for instance) in the 50's.

SouthSide_HitMen
08-24-2006, 12:04 PM
Where's the love for Ross Gload?

Well played.

Harold Baines is my favorite on this list.

Frank Thomas was the best pure hitter.

I voted Luke Appling because I knew Frank wouldn't need my vote and he was a great shortstop - at the plate and on the field - for some pretty poor White Sox teams.

Bill James ranks Frank Thomas and Luke Appling within the Top 11 of their respective positions. Eddie Collins (2nd best 2nd baseman) played close to half of his games with the A's. Joe Jackson ranked 6th among LFers but then again Cleveland is his primary team. Tim Raines (8th) and Minnie Minoso (10th) also cracked the Top 10 Left Fielders. Luis Aparicio ranked 13th and Nellie Fox 15th.

Ed Walsh was the highest ranked pitcher who spent a majority of their career with Chicago (19th). Ted Lyons finished 43rd.

Heffalump
08-24-2006, 12:06 PM
Why is Shoeless Joe not on the list. He is my vote.

I really don't get the logic of why people think Shoeless Joe should even be considered as the greatest Sox. Here are his stats with the Sox......
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA
648 2,439 396 829 139 79 30 426 64 36 251 87 .340


Yeah, he was a great player, but his time/stats spent on Cleveland made up the bulk of his numbers. Heck, the guy only played 4 full seasons with the Sox (although I admit, they were extremely productive ones)

Next, we have Frank's numbers:

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA
1,959 6,956 1,327 2,136 447 11 448 1,465 32 23 1,466 1,165 .307


I can understand people voting for Appling, Nellie, and even Baines, as they played a long time for the Sox and accumulated some nice stats. But come on, Joe Jackson the greatest White Sox ever?.......Please. No offense, but people have seen field of Dreams and Eight Men Out one too many times.

cbotnyse
08-24-2006, 01:11 PM
Geoff Blum

No discussion of Louis Aparicio? Is he considered the best SS in franchise history?

ode to veeck
08-24-2006, 01:19 PM
Amen, sir.

The real human highlight film of the early 70s Sox, even threatening the triple crown one year

ode to veeck
08-24-2006, 01:22 PM
I really don't get the logic of why people think Shoeless Joe should even be considered as the greatest Sox. Here are his stats with the Sox......
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA
648 2,439 396 829 139 79 30 426 64 36 251 87 .340


Yeah, he was a great player, but his time/stats spent on Cleveland made up the bulk of his numbers. Heck, the guy only played 4 full seasons with the Sox (although I admit, they were extremely productive ones)

<...> Please. No offense, but people have seen field of Dreams and Eight Men Out one too many times.

Leading them to 2 WS appearances is something no one's done in the 85 years since. He also hit like .400 in the post season for the Sox. .340 average over a few seasons is not something to scoff at either.

TornLabrum
08-24-2006, 01:26 PM
No. If it did, it would be pronounced "Minyoso".

Yes, it does, and it is.

thomas35forever
08-24-2006, 01:29 PM
Is there any doubt it should be the Big Hurt?

CLR01
08-24-2006, 01:36 PM
Easy. Chris Singleton.

johnr1note
08-24-2006, 01:44 PM
Let me second the motion for Dick Allen. He was amazing in his short tenure with the Sox. During his MVP year (1972) he was so far ahead of the rest of the league in overall offense, he was a one man wrecking crew. I read an article back in the late 1980s in one of SABRs research journals that proved that only Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig ever had offensive numbers ahead of the rest of the leauge that were larger than Dick Allen's lead in 1972. Amazing.

As for complaints about Frank Thomas being a "one dimensional player," you can't fault Big Frank for playing in an era and in a league where the DH was an option. Prior to 1973, there were many players that are ranked with the "all time greats" who would have wound up as DHs in the AL in the modern era. The great Ted Williams wasn't much of a fielder. I am sure Mickey Mantle would have been shifted to DH early in his career to preserve his oft injured legs and knees. Even Babe Ruth, after around 1928 or 1929 when his weight continued to balloon and his ability to patrol the outfield became increasingly more difficult, probably would have become a full time DH from that time forward. Other first basemen of the past had hands like Frank. Johnny Mize, Harmon Killebrew, Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell -- all hall of famers.

Compare overall offensive stats to any other right handed hitter in the history of baseball, and Frank will rank near the top. He is, without a doubt, the greatest player in White Sox history.

Heffalump
08-24-2006, 01:59 PM
Leading them to 2 WS appearances is something no one's done in the 85 years since. He also hit like .400 in the post season for the Sox. .340 average over a few seasons is not something to scoff at either.

I wholeheartedly agree that those numbers are nothing to scoff at, but I think they are relatively immaterial when compared to the long term commitments/achievements made by guys like Thomas, Fox, and Appling.

Regarding your comment that he led the Sox to two World Series appearances, if the Sox make it to the WS this year, does that mean that Konerko or Dye should immediately be in consideration for the greatest Sox ever? I don't mean to be picky, but this ambiguous 'stat' is hardly a strong enough reason to put Jackson in the category of greatest Sox ever.

In addition, depending on how you view the term "lead", I would argue that Jackson never "led" the Sox to anything. Anyone familiar with the 1917 and 1919 teams know that the team was broken into two cliques: (1) the educated, cultured guys like Ray Schalk, Eddie Collins, Red Faber, etc. and (2) the blue collar guys like Cicotte, Jackson, Weaver, etc. The two groups did not get along and did not have much to do with each other. In addition, Jackson wasn't even the leader of his own clique, as guys like Cicotte and Felsch did that, while Jackson tended to be the quiet unassuming type that let his plays on the field speak for him. Based on that, I would hardly say that Jackson was a leader on those teams like Konerko or Dye are on the present day Sox.

Finally, Jackson hit .305 in the 1917 WS with 2 rbi. In the 1919 WS, he did hit .375 with 6 rbi. That's .345 overall in two WS. But then again, Jermaine Dye hit .438 and Carl Everett hit .444 in the 2005 WS, so does that put them at the top of Sox all-time greats?

I guess my main point here is that I wholeheartedly admit that Jackson was an all-time baseball great and a great Sox player during his short stint in Chicago. However, his time with the Sox was so limited, that I think it is shortsighted to put his 4 full seasons head and shoulders above guys like Thomas, Fox, and Appling that toiled on the South Side for almost their whole careers.

fquaye149
08-24-2006, 02:30 PM
Frank. Is this even debateable?

Apparently it is. Probably by the same people who voted for Giambi in 2000.

Frank is so far beyond everyone else hitting-wise that it's silly to talk about defense. If it were between, say Harold Baines and Ozzie Guillen then we might have a chance to discuss "d". But Frank was the best hitter of the '90's besides perhaps Griffey and Gwynn.

The White Sox's best don't exactly scream superstar--just very excellent players that never got the respect they deserved--but Frank is a true superstar in every sense of the word.

I wouldn't be posting on this board if it weren't for Frank (I guess that might be reason enough for people to vote against him:wink:)

fquaye149
08-24-2006, 02:31 PM
It did and it should have been. People weren't so ethnically aware (of tildes for instance) in the 50's.

So is it You-ree-bay or OO-ree-bay?

(that's a rhetorical question.)

Heffalump
08-24-2006, 02:41 PM
Is there any doubt it should be the Big Hurt?

I agree. It is mind-boggling that it is not nearly unanimous for Thomas. I can understand the old-timers voting for Fox or Appling, as they closely trail Thomas, in my opinion. But votes for Jackson, Allen, Minoso, Baines, and others are simply based on emotion and just completely disregard the numbers and acheivements of Thomas compared to these otherwise excellent players.

Oh well, it doesn't really matter......The Sox are winning 10 - 0 vs. the Tigers. Now, if only Garland can wake up his fellow starters ! ! !

Johnny Mostil
08-24-2006, 02:42 PM
Actually, Ruth played CF and was known as a good defender with an amazing arm. No shock since he pitched.

OT, but Ruth played RF, no? (See http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/UPNYA01927.htm . . .)

MDF3530
08-24-2006, 02:50 PM
I had to vote for the Big Hurt. He was the face of the organization pretty much from his rookie year on.

juschill
08-24-2006, 03:13 PM
Best Catcher ever.

slobes
08-24-2006, 03:23 PM
Like some people said, Frank was the best hitter ever on the Sox, but he was a one dimensional player.

That said, I don't care, and he still gets my vote.

hsnterprize
08-24-2006, 03:52 PM
Frank's got my vote. As far as I'm concerned, no other Sox player should ever wear the number 35 again.

southwstchi4life
08-24-2006, 03:54 PM
I have to say this poll is pointless. Frank Thomas is the best. Show me an argument against. Don't think its really possible

mwc44
08-24-2006, 04:08 PM
Frank Thomas is the best player ever to wear a Sox uniform. Period...

... I chose Frank. Go get that 500 big man and then pick up a microphone, tell the haters to kiss your ass and stomp off into the sunset...

I couldn't have said it better myself, so I didn't... I'll just say:

"See above"

and

"See below."

I want Mags back
08-24-2006, 04:52 PM
number 35- Fraaaaaaaaannnk Thomas

PalehosePlanet
08-24-2006, 04:55 PM
No disrespect to Baines and Minoso -- I love them both --- but how do you put those two on this list ahead of Big Ed Walsh (best lifetime ERA in Baseball History at 1.82!!!!)Eddie Collins, Urban "Red" Faber, Luis Aparicio, Ted Lyons, and Ray Schalk?? These guys are all Hall-of-Famers; Baines and Minoso are not (not yet anyway and might not ever be).

For what it's worth, Jackson and Cicotte would have been HOF bound.

doctorlecter
08-24-2006, 05:22 PM
Big Frank... The only one on this list that ever has been described as "Ruthian."

PennStater98r
08-24-2006, 06:16 PM
This one is Frank all the way - no other White Sox player impacted the White Sox the way that Frank impacted the teams he played on. When talking about Joe Jackson, Eddie Collins name is mentioned as one of the leaders that led the teams to '17 and '19 World Series appearances. Let's not forget the pitching that those teams had as well - namely Cicotte, Red Faber, Lefty Williams, Reb Russell and a young Dickie Kerr. I have a feeling that those teams would have stood a shot at greatness without Jackson or Collins.

Again, Frank was the White Sox from the early '90s to 2000. That said, it's tragic that Fisk and Eddie Collins don't make the list for consideration. Sure, Appling, Frank, and Fox deserve to be there as your top five, but I am wondering how Fisk and Collins finish below Baines and Minoso in consideration. Couldn't you argue that Fisk is one of the top five catchers ever to play the game?

Let's make a list for fun:

Bench
I-Rod/Faux-Pudge
Piazza
Berra
Fisk

HM goes to Bill Dickey and Mickey Cochrane?

I dunno - I think placing Fisk in on that list has to take place before Baines. It's understandable why he does not break the top five in Boston - You have Yaz, Ted Williams, Cy Young, Tris Speaker, Jimmie Foxx, Joe Cronin, Bobby Doerr and many many other legends.

Anyway - those are my thoughts on this.

eastchicagosoxfan
08-24-2006, 07:10 PM
OT, but Ruth played RF, no? (See http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/UPNYA01927.htm . . .)
Thanks Mostil, I didn't think Ruth ever played center field either. I voted for write-in. My vote went to " Cocky " Eddie Collins. Thomas is a great hitter, one of the best, but a mediocre first baseman. He couldn't throw accurately. Collins was a great player on offense and defense. Arguably the best second sacker of all-time ( Bill James ranks him second, behind Morgan ).

misty60481
08-24-2006, 07:36 PM
I think Frank Thomas is greatest White Sox ever,,but I can see why Luke Appling received some votes.. I have been going to Sox games since 1945 and got a chance to see Appling play quite a bit in 45-50 times..He was already old but still could hit.. If Thomas had played his 14 years at time Appling did 30s 40s he wouldnt be anywhere close to 500 HRs,, old Comiskey was just to big,, I do think he would have a higher lifetime BA...

The Racehorse
08-24-2006, 07:46 PM
Joe Jackson

Viva Medias B's
08-24-2006, 07:54 PM
:hitless
"What about me?"

Uh, Royce? The poll said BEST White Sox ever.

:jerry
"Was I the best White Sox manager ever?"

:ozzie
"[Bleep] no!"

:gun
"Hey, don't forget about me!"

Uh, whatever your name is, are you still in baseball?

Hitmen77
08-24-2006, 07:57 PM
I voted for Minnie because I didn't want him to get shut out in this vote.

Frontman
08-24-2006, 08:13 PM
I have to go with a hall of famer left off the list. For me, Carlton Fisk. I know his best days were in Boston it seems, but to me, he'll always come to mind first when the discussion of great White Sox players start.

Front

jortafan
08-24-2006, 08:37 PM
Insofar as this poll is concerned, I would vote for Luke Appling in large part because his entire 20-year Hall of Fame career was with the White Sox and because he was a big baseball star of the 1930s, one of the biggest names of the game during the Depression and the guy who helped to keep the White Sox franchise afloat during what was a grim time in team history.

I realize Frank Thomas would have liked to have played his whole career here and Joe Jackson merely played for the teams to which he was traded. It's not like Appling made some conscious choice to play for the Sox that the other two did not.

I concede that anyone who votes for either of those two men can make a serious argument on their behalf.

But with regards to the "Hometown Heroes" poll that is currently taking place and that was the motivation for this series of polls we've been taking on this site in recent weeks, I'd note that they ask for the player who best personifies a franchise. That is not necessarily the same as being the best player.

To me, the face of the White Sox is a pair of players -- Luis Aparicio and Nellie Fox. I honestly cannot think of one without thinking of the other. They are a pair who bolstered each other to the levels that got both of them into the Hall of Fame. They were the heart of the Go-Go Sox, and were the basis for the speedy, weak hitting but good pitching teams that make up so much of White Sox history.

If all this "Hometown Heroes" stuff were serious, instead of just another tacky internet stunt intended to promote DHL, I'd say we should all be voting for Aparicio and Fox as the face of the White Sox. Even if that means putting aside the accomplishments of Jackson, Appling, Thomas and many of the other talented players and pitchers who toiled on Chicago's South Side during the past century.

fquaye149
08-24-2006, 09:05 PM
If all this "Hometown Heroes" stuff were serious, instead of just another tacky internet stunt intended to promote DHL, I'd say we should all be voting for Aparicio and Fox as the face of the White Sox. Even if that means putting aside the accomplishments of Jackson, Appling, Thomas and many of the other talented players and pitchers who toiled on Chicago's South Side during the past century.
Um, are you kidding me? It's fine that you associate Aparicio and Fox with the Sox, but Frank was just as important to his team in the 90's. In the 1990's Frank WAS the White Sox. He WAS Chicago baseball--he was a great player and a nice person and he loved playing for the franchise.

Not only that but he was the BEST player ever to play for the White Sox. His numbers, overall, but especially at the peak of his career, put him among the best hitters of all time.

Bucky F. Dent
08-24-2006, 10:20 PM
Joe Jackson

MeteorsSox4367
08-24-2006, 11:09 PM
Two words: Wayne Nordhagen

Actually, I'll go with Frank Thomas.

Chips
08-24-2006, 11:10 PM
:canseco

PeteWard
08-24-2006, 11:16 PM
Dick Allen, the most awe and fear-inspiring man I have ever seen at the plate. I don't care how short his tenure was, he HAS to be on this ballot before Baines or Fox.:angry:

PeteWard
08-24-2006, 11:19 PM
Is there any doubt it should be the Big Hurt?

I can't vote for him because he was such a whining pain in the ass.
But was he the best? Probably.

PeteWard
08-24-2006, 11:25 PM
I have to go with a hall of famer left off the list. For me, Carlton Fisk. I know his best days were in Boston it seems, but to me, he'll always come to mind first when the discussion of great White Sox players start.

Front

Sorry but every game he caught would last three or more hours. His slow game-calling made those games in the 80s virtually unwatchable. And face it, he's a Boston boy first.

Ziggy S
08-25-2006, 04:21 AM
Dan Pasqua

It's Big Hurt, hands down, the man who was the White Sox and helped us stay Sox fans during those great years during the heyday of Schuler and Bevington.

The honorable mentions go to write-ins that should have been on the list

1.) The 100% Natural No-Additive Real Pudge and the first guy I thought of when I started cheering on the Sox (Fisk)
2.) Luis Aparicio

misty60481
08-25-2006, 07:40 AM
How about an honorable mention for Billy Pierce,, from 49--61 he was one of best pitchers in AL...

Beautox
08-25-2006, 09:12 AM
Rich Lederer over at The Baseball Analysts (http://baseballanalysts.com/) wrote good article about Big Frank, check it out.

ode to veeck
08-25-2006, 09:15 AM
Two words: Wayne Nordhagen

Actually, I'll go with Frank Thomas.

LOL, A blast from the past ... is Wayne the stud still doing 1000 situps a day?

ode to veeck
08-25-2006, 09:30 AM
I wholeheartedly agree that those numbers are nothing to scoff at, but I think they are relatively immaterial when compared to the long term commitments/achievements made by guys like Thomas, Fox, and Appling.

Regarding your comment that he led the Sox to two World Series appearances, if the Sox make it to the WS this year, does that mean that Konerko or Dye should immediately be in consideration for the greatest Sox ever? I don't mean to be picky, but this ambiguous 'stat' is hardly a strong enough reason to put Jackson in the category of greatest Sox ever.

In addition, depending on how you view the term "lead", I would argue that Jackson never "led" the Sox to anything. Anyone familiar with the 1917 and 1919 teams know that the team was broken into two cliques: (1) the educated, cultured guys like Ray Schalk, Eddie Collins, Red Faber, etc. and (2) the blue collar guys like Cicotte, Jackson, Weaver, etc. The two groups did not get along and did not have much to do with each other. In addition, Jackson wasn't even the leader of his own clique, as guys like Cicotte and Felsch did that, while Jackson tended to be the quiet unassuming type that let his plays on the field speak for him. Based on that, I would hardly say that Jackson was a leader on those teams like Konerko or Dye are on the present day Sox.

Finally, Jackson hit .305 in the 1917 WS with 2 rbi. In the 1919 WS, he did hit .375 with 6 rbi. That's .345 overall in two WS. But then again, Jermaine Dye hit .438 and Carl Everett hit .444 in the 2005 WS, so does that put them at the top of Sox all-time greats?

I guess my main point here is that I wholeheartedly admit that Jackson was an all-time baseball great and a great Sox player during his short stint in Chicago. However, his time with the Sox was so limited, that I think it is shortsighted to put his 4 full seasons head and shoulders above guys like Thomas, Fox, and Appling that toiled on the South Side for almost their whole careers.

Well if Jermaine or Carl hit 340 or higher for a few seasons with Sox, maybe so, but more seriously we're trying to break the argument into too many pieces down that path of reasoning.

I think there is a legitimate question of the intent of the poll or question. If you ask it as "who are the best players to wear a Sox uniform" vs "who made the greatest contributions in a Sox uniform" you get different leaders. In the former, I would rate Collins and Jackson in the top tier, but in the latter it would also include Appling, Fox, Aparicio, Minnie (still my all time favorite Sox).

An interesting side question you allude to is which of the current Sox might be getting there with a little more time. Paulie for sure with his bat, hard nosed effort to improve his D at 1st, and outstanding personal leadership. Dye is certainly under recognized for his contributions as well in the recent short term.

Railsplitter
08-25-2006, 09:30 AM
My vote for best Sox player is Luke Appling. Ol' Aches & Pains played 20 years for the Sox and made the Hall of Fame while on a team that never placed higher than third.

For pitcher it's a tie. Red Faber helped the Sox win a Series in 1917, and had he been healthy in 1919, there may never have been a Black Sox scandal.
The other one is Ted Lyons. Lyons joined the Marines in 1942 while in his 30's

Heffalump
08-25-2006, 10:28 AM
Well if Jermaine or Carl hit 340 or higher for a few seasons with Sox, maybe so, but more seriously we're trying to break the argument into too many pieces down that path of reasoning.

I think there is a legitimate question of the intent of the poll or question. If you ask it as "who are the best players to wear a Sox uniform" vs "who made the greatest contributions in a Sox uniform" you get different leaders. In the former, I would rate Collins and Jackson in the top tier, but in the latter it would also include Appling, Fox, Aparicio, Minnie (still my all time favorite Sox).

An interesting side question you allude to is which of the current Sox might be getting there with a little more time. Paulie for sure with his bat, hard nosed effort to improve his D at 1st, and outstanding personal leadership. Dye is certainly under recognized for his contributions as well in the recent short term.

I agree. "Best White Sox Ever" indicates that the player is recognized as a Chicago White Sox first and foremost in his career. The title wasn't "Favorite White Sox Ever".....That's where you totally lose me on guys like Jackson. Based on this reasoning, where's Albert Belle? As he had one of the greatest offensive seasons in White sox history (record most hrs, rbi, doubles in one season). And what about Al Simmons, Steve Carlton, and Tom Seaver? They played on the White Sox, why don't you give them consideration as well?

I guess we can just agree to disagree on this. Joe Jackson is a famous White Sox mainly becuase of the Black Sox scandal, not because of his huge achievements with the White Sox. Collins played a long time with the Sox, but he is recognized first and foremost as an Athletic and I believe went in the HOF as an A as well. Minnie was a good player and a huge fan favorite, but I don't think anyone would say that his numbers and contributions on the field stack up to guys like Thomas, Fox, and Appling. I understand that fans have favorite players, but that doesn't mean that they should be recognized as the greatest player to ever represent a team.

Oh well......Its a fun conversation though.

ode to veeck
08-25-2006, 12:52 PM
I agree. "Best White Sox Ever" indicates that the player is recognized as a Chicago White Sox first and foremost in his career. The title wasn't "Favorite White Sox Ever".....That's where you totally lose me on guys like Jackson. Based on this reasoning, where's Albert Belle? As he had one of the greatest offensive seasons in White sox history (record most hrs, rbi, doubles in one season). And what about Al Simmons, Steve Carlton, and Tom Seaver? They played on the White Sox, why don't you give them consideration as well?

I guess we can just agree to disagree on this. Joe Jackson is a famous White Sox mainly becuase of the Black Sox scandal, not because of his huge achievements with the White Sox. Collins played a long time with the Sox, but he is recognized first and foremost as an Athletic and I believe went in the HOF as an A as well. Minnie was a good player and a huge fan favorite, but I don't think anyone would say that his numbers and contributions on the field stack up to guys like Thomas, Fox, and Appling. I understand that fans have favorite players, but that doesn't mean that they should be recognized as the greatest player to ever represent a team.

Oh well......Its a fun conversation though.

I give Minnie a lot of credit for his career in the negro leagues before he was allowed to play in MLB. It was so dissappointing to see the choices in the additions from the negro leagues this year as if you add up Minnie's combined stats in different leagues, they are phenomenal numbers

Heffalump
08-25-2006, 01:10 PM
I give Minnie a lot of credit for his career in the negro leagues before he was allowed to play in MLB. It was so dissappointing to see the choices in the additions from the negro leagues this year as if you add up Minnie's combined stats in different leagues, they are phenomenal numbers

I agree. But once again, they aren't germane to the topic, as they were years spent on teams other than the Sox, in other leagues.

johnr1note
08-25-2006, 03:41 PM
One thing we need to put into perspective here regarding Frank Thomas -- he is not just one of the greatest hitters of all time, but he is RIGHT HANDED. What's the big deal about that, you say? The vast majority of great hitters in the history of MLB are lefties. When you stack Frank up and see where he sits on the all time lists, but then consider where he is at compared to other right handed hitters on those lists, he is in truly rarified company. Had the injuries not slowed him down late in his career, we would be saying Frank's name in the same breath as the great titans of previous generations.

Plus, when you combine his ability to get on base with his power/hitting numbers, he has few equals. When you look at home runs, walks, OBP as a package, Frank is right up there with Ruth, Ted Williams, and (yes) Barry Bonds.

here are some examples: (all stats cited are as of the end of the 2005 season)

For career on base percentage, Frank is ranked 13th overall. But he is third best when you consider righties -- only Hornsby and Foxx are better.

For slugging Pct, he is 15th best all time. Compared to righties, he is 9th.

For OPS (on base % and slugging % factored together), Frank is 11th all time, 6th best for righties. (Adjusted OPS, he is 14th and 5th respectively)

For BBs, he is 17th all time. The only two other active big leaguers in the top 40 are Bonds (1st) and Gary Sheffield (39th). Bonds, of course, is left handed.

Frank Thomas is arguably the best overall right handed hitter of his era. Perhaps A-Rod and Pujols have stats to compare, but thier careers really belong to the generation after Frank's.

Frank is the all time best White Sox player, hands down.

Grzegorz
08-25-2006, 09:18 PM
I am sure Mickey Mantle would have been shifted to DH early in his career to preserve his oft injured legs and knees.

I am positive Mantle would not have shifted to DH early in his career. He had the best wheels in the game and an excellent arm before injuries took their toll. He could steal a base too.

johnr1note
08-25-2006, 11:15 PM
I am positive Mantle would not have shifted to DH early in his career. He had the best wheels in the game and an excellent arm before injuries took their toll. He could steal a base too.

but when did injuries take their toll? What you say is true, but by 1961, the injuries were already starting to take thier toll. Mantle would have been the one to break Ruth;s single season HR record, not Maris, if he hadn't been injured. Some other great players would have elongated thier careers and would have been better assets to thier teams had they been DHs and not had to play the field.

MILTMAY5
08-25-2006, 11:40 PM
Frank Thomas. He was the best hitter in the 1990's with the exception of maybe Griffey Jr. He would have another MVP trophy on his shelf if it wasn't for steroid-Giambi robbing him of it a few years back.The only player on this poll should be Frank Thomas. There are a dozen or so guys who would qualify as "great" players ( Fisk, Baines, Fox....etc.) but Frank is "the greatest" by a long shot. A first ballot HOF!

fquaye149
08-26-2006, 02:22 AM
can you believe that a franchise that has been around 100 years like the Sox does not have a consensus 1st ballot HOFer?

Frank is the closest we will come in my lifetime (imo) and since he spent most of his career w/ the Sox, how can you not vote him best? It's not like he killed south side babies and ate their souls

batmanZoSo
08-26-2006, 03:17 AM
can you believe that a franchise that has been around 100 years like the Sox does not have a consensus 1st ballot HOFer?

Frank is the closest we will come in my lifetime (imo) and since he spent most of his career w/ the Sox, how can you not vote him best? It's not like he killed south side babies and ate their souls

I wonder if it bears any correlation to that 88 year no-World-Series spell we had.

?

we be jake
08-26-2006, 06:42 AM
Frank Thomas, without question.

He still should be with the team, too, but that train has sailed. :tongue:

Amen brother !
:cool: we be jake

tick53
08-26-2006, 09:51 AM
:hurt "The man in this picture is named Frank Thomas. He is the greatest player that the Chicago White Sox ever had."