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View Full Version : Hermanson On The Way Out?


soxinem1
08-21-2006, 09:19 PM
I don't know how true this is, but let's see how it unfolds. A buddy of mine who works for the Rockies says this about Dustin Hermanson:

1. He is through in the Sox organization, and KW or Ozzie do not want him on the ML team, and made their minds up before the season started that he would not pitch for them this year. The team actually offered to release him and he turned it down to stay with the AAA team.

2. KW and Ozzie both have been fuming since late February because they felt Dustin was not truthful about his back, while he says they knew he had some serious back problems virtually his whole career.

3. Williams actually blames him directly for this years BP woes because they were counting on him to be ready, or he never would have traded Vizciano to the D-Backs and left the team short handed in the pen.

Since we have heard next to nothing about Hermanson all year, I wonder if there is some truth to this.

Any thoughts?

Dan Mega
08-21-2006, 09:21 PM
3. Williams actually blames him directly for this years BP woes because they were counting on him to be ready, or he never would have traded Vizciano to the D-Backs and left the team short handed in the pen.

From everything I've read, KW and Ozzie have never stated they were counting on him to be ready. I could be wrong but I don't think they were putting much stake in him returning.

lakeviewsoxfan
08-21-2006, 09:22 PM
I call Bull****. Hermanson himself said after the WS he didn't know if he would be able to ever pitch again because of his back. To blame him for trading Vizcaino who knows?

JB98
08-21-2006, 09:22 PM
From everything I've read, KW and Ozzie have never stated they were counting on him to be ready. I could be wrong but I don't think they were putting much stake in him returning.

That's what they've been saying since spring training when Dustin got hurt. Coming into camp, I think they WERE counting on him.

Frater Perdurabo
08-21-2006, 09:26 PM
I don't know how true this is, but let's see how it unfolds. A buddy of mine who works for the Rockies says this about Dustin Hermanson:

1. He is through in the Sox organization, and KW or Ozzie do not want him on the ML team, and made their minds up before the season started that he would not pitch for them this year. The team actually offered to release him and he turned it down to stay with the AAA team.

2. KW and Ozzie both have been fuming since late February because they felt Dustin was not truthful about his back, while he says they knew he had some serious back problems virtually his whole career.

3. Williams actually blames him directly for this years BP woes because they were counting on him to be ready, or he never would have traded Vizciano to the D-Backs and left the team short handed in the pen.

Since we have heard next to nothing about Hermanson all year, I wonder if there is some truth to this.

Any thoughts?

I hope this isn't the case, because I had always thought that Hermanson was a forthright, honest guy.

I can't speak to anything else, but as of right now the Vazquez trade really seems to have been a major mistake. If that trade had not been made, the Sox would have McCarthy in the rotation and El Duque and Vizcaino would be in the pen. If KW was counting on Hermanson to be available in any kind of capacity, then it's a double shame.

JB98
08-21-2006, 09:35 PM
I hope this isn't the case, because I had always thought that Hermanson was a forthright, honest guy.

I can't speak to anything else, but as of right now the Vazquez trade really seems to have been a major mistake. If that trade had not been made, the Sox would have McCarthy in the rotation and El Duque and Vizcaino would be in the pen. If KW was counting on Hermanson to be available in any kind of capacity, then it's a double shame.

I remember the day the Vazquez trade was made. I was fuming because I think Javy is a stiff. People called me a dark cloud. :D:

Frater Perdurabo
08-21-2006, 09:36 PM
I remember the day the Vazquez trade was made. I was fuming because I think Javy is a stiff. People called me a dark cloud. :D:

For the record, I hated the trade, too, because Vazquez was coming from the NL and was a flyball pitcher, and also because I didn't like the idea of giving up Chris Young.

eurotrash35
08-21-2006, 09:39 PM
don't you have to be in to be out? :redneck

DickAllen72
08-21-2006, 09:41 PM
I remember the day the Vazquez trade was made. I was fuming because I think Javy is a stiff. People called me a dark cloud. :D:

Yep. That's the one trade I wasn't too sold on when it went down and the one I would like to undo if it were possible.

Without Chris Young the Sox have no one in the organization that can play decent CF other than Anderson. If he were to get injured, the Sox would be cooked.

I'd rather have El Duque around than Vazquez any day, and it would have been nice to have Vizcaino in the pen and McCarthy as the fifth starter with Duque making some spot starts.

Anyway, no use crying over spilled milk I guess. Let's hope Vazquez makes us eat our words for the rest of the season. :cool:

JB98
08-21-2006, 09:41 PM
For the record, I hated the trade, too, because Vazquez was coming from the NL and was a flyball pitcher, and also because I didn't like the idea of giving up Chris Young.

I didn't like giving up Young either, but mainly I was pissed because Vazquez is overpaid and always pitches just well enough to lose.

soxinem1
08-21-2006, 09:48 PM
For the record, I hated the trade, too, because Vazquez was coming from the NL and was a flyball pitcher, and also because I didn't like the idea of giving up Chris Young.

Well, we have to remember KW tried to do everything he could to strengthen this team for an encore performance. In all fairness, Hermanson, Cotts, and Politte were all over their heads last year, and only Vizciano was anywhere near his career norm, except for K's. None of them should have been counted to be nails tough like they were in 2005.

Plus, I had no problem trading El Duque. Toward the end of the year, he was as frail as toothpicks. He did good out of the pen, but I don't think KW wanted to count on a 40-year old, $5 million long reliever when they had McCarthy for that role.

While I have never been a fan of Vasquez, I figured him as a #5 would be better than Dan Wright, Mike Porzio, John Snyder, and a few of the other relics and never-was's that occupied the spot for many years.

The one thing that intrugues me about this story is the make up of the Sox pen in ST. It stunk all of ST, and has been really sketchy all year. There were many guys of decent capabilities available, but Williams made a move on none of them. I think he figured they might have at most one rookie in the 'pen, but not three. When it became obvious that Hermanson was primed for the DL, he made a fling for Thornton, and that was all he could do by then.

Many posters on this board made it sound like we didn't even need a pen, because all the starters would go 7-8+ innings and that Jenks would finish every night. As we have seen, that is not the case.

If there is one thing we should remember, is that championships are not won on paper, they are won on the field.

Huisj
08-21-2006, 09:53 PM
Interestingly enough, aside from Cotts right now, the bullpen is pretty dang good with the moves KW has made over the season and back in the spring to add MacDougal, Riske, and Thornton.

I somehow find this whole story slightly unbelievable. It just seems like if this were all true, we'd hear about it from sources in Chicago, and it would have come up already instead of hearing about it from the Rockies. :?:

JB98
08-21-2006, 09:56 PM
Interestingly enough, aside from Cotts right now, the bullpen is pretty dang good with the moves KW has made over the season and back in the spring to add MacDougal, Riske, and Thornton.

I somehow find this whole story slightly unbelievable. It just seems like if this were all true, we'd hear about it from sources in Chicago, and it would have come up already instead of hearing about it from the Rockies. :?:

It's a much different bullpen than last year. Politte and Hermanson broke down. Cotts is really struggling. Viz got traded. Those four were relied upon heavily last season.

It's good KW didn't stand pat, but at the same time, Vazquez isn't worth the three players we gave up for him.

getonbckthr
08-21-2006, 09:59 PM
I don't know how true this is, but let's see how it unfolds. A buddy of mine who works for the Rockies says this about Dustin Hermanson:

1. He is through in the Sox organization, and KW or Ozzie do not want him on the ML team, and made their minds up before the season started that he would not pitch for them this year. The team actually offered to release him and he turned it down to stay with the AAA team.

2. KW and Ozzie both have been fuming since late February because they felt Dustin was not truthful about his back, while he says they knew he had some serious back problems virtually his whole career.

3. Williams actually blames him directly for this years BP woes because they were counting on him to be ready, or he never would have traded Vizciano to the D-Backs and left the team short handed in the pen.

Since we have heard next to nothing about Hermanson all year, I wonder if there is some truth to this.

Any thoughts?
What was your buddy doing in the airport??

Lip Man 1
08-21-2006, 10:10 PM
I have no idea if this is true or not but if Kenny is blaming Dustin then he's totally wrong.

I mean it wasn't Dustin who traded a third of the six man bullpen in the off season and replaced them with stiffs and the Boone Logan's of the world was it?

Lip

soxinem1
08-21-2006, 10:16 PM
I have no idea if this is true or not but if Kenny is blaming Dustin then he's totally wrong.

I mean it wasn't Dustin who traded a third of the six man bullpen in the off season and replaced them with stiffs and the Boone Logan's of the world was it?

Lip

I believe it was in 2002 when Hermanson missed most of the season with the Red Sox because of his back, so it's not like the history was not there.

I think the question is did KW and the Sox really get the impression from Hermanson that he would be ready in 2006? And if they did not, why did they do nothing until the end of ST to even make what was a token move (Thornton) to add an expereinced decent arm at the time? I think Thornton was just luck because he was about to be sprung from Seattle anyway.

CWSpalehoseCWS
08-21-2006, 10:17 PM
I still feel like Vazquez could end up turning into a Jose Contreras. I remember how alot of people wanted to dump Contreras in the begining of '05. I'm not saying that Vazquez will turn it around right away, I just think we shouldn't give up on him so soon. He's showed us he has the ability.

As for Hermanson, I think he's done with the Sox, unless he makes the team as a September callup. It seems more and more like Cotts, Politte and Hermanson were just having career years in '05.

JB98
08-21-2006, 11:45 PM
I still feel like Vazquez could end up turning into a Jose Contreras. I remember how alot of people wanted to dump Contreras in the begining of '05. I'm not saying that Vazquez will turn it around right away, I just think we shouldn't give up on him so soon. He's showed us he has the ability.

As for Hermanson, I think he's done with the Sox, unless he makes the team as a September callup. It seems more and more like Cotts, Politte and Hermanson were just having career years in '05.

By this time last year, Contreras was rolling along. Don't hold your breath on Vazquez turning it around. The guy has a long record of mediocrity.

Heffalump
08-22-2006, 08:41 AM
I still feel like Vazquez could end up turning into a Jose Contreras. I remember how alot of people wanted to dump Contreras in the begining of '05. I'm not saying that Vazquez will turn it around right away, I just think we shouldn't give up on him so soon. He's showed us he has the ability.


I like you optimism and I hope it proves to be true, but in all reality, what you see is what your gonna get with Vazquez. He's been like that pretty much his whole career - great stuff/potential, but never really fulfilled it. We gotta rely on the proven starters - Contreras, Buehrle, Freddy, and Garland - to turn this thing around.

Frater Perdurabo
08-22-2006, 08:57 AM
I like you optimism and I hope it proves to be true, but in all reality, what you see is what your gonna get with Vazquez. He's been like that pretty much his whole career - great stuff/potential, but never really fulfilled it. We gotta rely on the proven starters - Contreras, Buehrle, Freddy, and Garland - to turn this thing around.

Agreed. Vazquez benefitted greatly from pitching to the opposing pitcher two or three times in the NL, plus pitching to another weak hitter in the #8 hole. That usually allowed him to get into the seventh inning when he pitched for Montreal and Arizona.

DumpJerry
08-22-2006, 09:07 AM
Thoughts:

If the Rockies organization is indeed leaking this out. maybe they're looking for a trade for Hermy. After all, why would they care what the Sox organization is or isn't thinking?

Second, Thornton was not a fluke or lucky trade. Cooper had his eye on him for over a year and KW finally was able to pry him from Seattle. Coop saw something in Thornton that told him he could make him better. It worked. When the deal was made, Ozzie is reported to have said to Coop something along the lines of "now you've got him, leave me alone about him."

We know KW is a relentless pursuer of players he wants. He pursued Cintron for over a year, Thornton for a long period and el Duque was in his sights for a couple of years.

The Immigrant
08-22-2006, 09:52 AM
We gotta rely on the proven starters - Contreras, Buehrle, Freddy, and Garland - to turn this thing around.

Garland didn't prove himself until the first part of last year, and still some people were ready to give up on him after his slow start this year. Contreras was wildly inconsistent (a headcase with great potential - sound familiar?) until the middle of last August. These things take time, and I am not ready to give up on Vazquez just yet.

soxinem1
08-22-2006, 09:54 AM
Thoughts:

If the Rockies organization is indeed leaking this out. maybe they're looking for a trade for Hermy. After all, why would they care what the Sox organization is or isn't thinking?

Second, Thornton was not a fluke or lucky trade. Cooper had his eye on him for over a year and KW finally was able to pry him from Seattle. Coop saw something in Thornton that told him he could make him better. It worked. When the deal was made, Ozzie is reported to have said to Coop something along the lines of "now you've got him, leave me alone about him."

We know KW is a relentless pursuer of players he wants. He pursued Cintron for over a year, Thornton for a long period and el Duque was in his sights for a couple of years.

All of this could very well be true, and you can add Bartolo Colon to the list. But they didn't have to pry Thornton from Seattle, he was out of options and the M's were lucky to get anything for him. He was not going to make the team and they risked losing him for nothing.

But KW also has no problems cutting cords with players either, ala El Duque, Jon Rauch, Carl Everett, Frank Thomas, and others. If a contract negotiation did not go KW's way, or if a player did something to tick him off, they were history. This may well be the case here too.

34 Inch Stick
08-22-2006, 12:10 PM
I would make the Vazquez trade again today.

Chicken Dinner
08-22-2006, 12:17 PM
Pay the guy his $500,000 buyout and be done with it.

Ol' No. 2
08-22-2006, 12:19 PM
By this time last year, Contreras was rolling along. Don't hold your breath on Vazquez turning it around. The guy has a long record of mediocrity.But they also had a half year head start on Contreras from 2004. It took a full year to get him turned around.

hold2dibber
08-22-2006, 01:06 PM
Random thoughts on a bunch of points raised in this thread:

- Although the Sox gave up a lot to get him, I was okay with the Vazquez trade because he clearly has a great arm and I have a lot of faith in Cooper. I still think there's a decent chance that he turns it around but I now sense that the guy has a very fraile psyche and not a lot of toughness, which puts a limit on how good he can be.

- Does anyone know Vazquez's contract status? My recollection is that he has at least one, and possibly two, more years on his contract. Is that right?

- The pen has been better this year than the rotation, particularly since the addition of Riske and MacDougal. Thornton has been a steal. The six highest ERAs on the team now? Contreras, McCarthy, Garland, Garcia, Buehrle and Vazquez. That's the starting 5 and the heir apparent to the starting five.

- On the "when KW sets his sights on a guy he eventually gets him" front: thank goodness it didn't/hasn't applied in the Darren Erstad context. Shudder.

Chicken Dinner
08-22-2006, 01:10 PM
- Does anyone know Vazquez's contract status? My recollection is that he has at least one, and possibly two, more years on his contract. Is that right?



Through 07. That's it.

miker
08-22-2006, 01:15 PM
Garland didn't prove himself until the first part of last year, and still some people were ready to give up on him after his slow start this year. Contreras was wildly inconsistent (a headcase with great potential - sound familiar?) until the middle of last August. These things take time, and I am not ready to give up on Vazquez just yet.
I applaud your optimism and I hope you turn out to be right...sooner better than later.

SouthSide_HitMen
08-22-2006, 01:31 PM
Thoughts:

If the Rockies organization is indeed leaking this out. maybe they're looking for a trade for Hermy. After all, why would they care what the Sox organization is or isn't thinking?

Second, Thornton was not a fluke or lucky trade. Cooper had his eye on him for over a year and KW finally was able to pry him from Seattle. Coop saw something in Thornton that told him he could make him better. It worked. When the deal was made, Ozzie is reported to have said to Coop something along the lines of "now you've got him, leave me alone about him."

We know KW is a relentless pursuer of players he wants. He pursued Cintron for over a year, Thornton for a long period and el Duque was in his sights for a couple of years.

He also pursued Vazquez for years - Kenny usually gets his man.

I think the story is nonsense. He was already signed through this season and was a sunk cost. Hermanson had back issues the entire second half of last season so nobody in the organization can (and IMO would) say this was some sort of surprise.

DumpJerry
08-22-2006, 02:33 PM
- On the "when KW sets his sights on a guy he eventually gets him" front: thank goodness it didn't/hasn't applied in the Darren Erstad context. Shudder.
It did apply. It was The Disney Company that blocked him after the GMs agreed to the trade. Then Konerko got better. Sights taken off Erstad.

maurice
08-22-2006, 03:01 PM
But he didn't actually "get" his guy, thank goodness. The opposing owner saved KW from himself (kinda like last year's Griffey deal). We'd be in BIG trouble without Garland.

NoShoesJoe
08-22-2006, 04:18 PM
Javy is a headcase, he may as well be one of the many that never lived up to his potential. He's certainly showed us this time and time again. For every quality start, it seems he has four or more implosions. I get nervous every start of his, just waiting for the implosion.