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tlebar318
08-21-2006, 10:50 AM
Per the article in today's paper, Cubbie fans are no longer content to just "love" their team and want a winner. Apparently some are giving Dusty Baker and Jacque Jones racist hate mail and phone calls--I think this kind of crap really crosses the line and I hope the authorities find out where the nasty mailings and phone calls originate from. Don Baylor, former manager was even quoted in the article as saying "they say that Cubs fans are great. Define that for me. Is that throwing things on the field, showing disdain for your players?...when does it end?" Very Sad, I live and breath the Sox and have since the 70's and I do not recall this ever happening with our team no matter how bad we were and we went through some very lean years...This must be sad for the fans of that team that truly do live and die with the team as a whole year after year....:(:

34 Inch Stick
08-21-2006, 10:57 AM
They somehow found 3 million satisfied customers this year.

NoShoesJoe
08-21-2006, 10:59 AM
...as they continue to play in front of packed houses, I don't expect anything to change. That mentality could be their undoing. It's in our best interest to have two playoff contending teams. I, for one, could not contain my excitement if both teams had a chance to get to the WS. A repeat of 1906 perhaps? Imagine what that would do for Chicago! Add to that a decent Bears team, Bulls team that reaches the playoffs? It'd be pandamonium here. How great would that be?!

PatK
08-21-2006, 11:10 AM
Like racist comments at Wrigley are anything new.

The first time I heard a racial slur used out in the open in public was when I was a kid sitting by the Cubs bullpen when Lee Smith got up to warm up.

A bunch of guys sitting by us started gushing about how he was the "(slur beggining with N) Nolan Ryan".

CaptainBallz
08-21-2006, 11:46 AM
Like racist comments at Wrigley are anything new.

The first time I heard a racial slur used out in the open in public was when I was a kid sitting by the Cubs bullpen when Lee Smith got up to warm up.

A bunch of guys sitting by us started gushing about how he was the "(slur beggining with N) Nolan Ryan".

No fanbase is completely void of these types of idiots. Racism transcends the sports world. The complete idiocy of trashing the field while still packing the park is what is more telling of their moronic fanbase.

It does suck for actual fans that don't do that crap and are actually disgusted enough to *gasp* stop filling the Tribs coffers. But they also have to realize that this "loyal, diehard fanbase" that's always touted is, for the most part, a gathering of drunkards and tourists who generally couldn't give a rat's ass.

It's the same thing when I hear people bitching about "White Sox fans" now trying to emulate their Northside neighbors by throwing balls back and whatnot. FACT: They're just there because it's now cool to go see a Sox game. They're not fans, they're idiots at a ballgame.

southside rocks
08-21-2006, 11:49 AM
They're not fans, they're idiots at a ballgame.

Exactly what I was going to say. :cheers:

jackbrohamer
08-21-2006, 12:49 PM
Of all the idiotic myths about the Cubs, the worst is the one about Wrigley being "friendly" in any sense of that word. I had the misfortune of going to a game there earlier this month (because of work) and it was the angriest, drunken-est, most foul-mouthed sports crowd I have ever seen. It was an absolute disgrace, I felt sorry for any parents dumb enough to bring children to the game,

slavko
08-21-2006, 05:33 PM
Of all the idiotic myths about the Cubs, the worst is the one about Wrigley being "friendly" in any sense of that word. I had the misfortune of going to a game there earlier this month (because of work) and it was the angriest, drunken-est, most foul-mouthed sports crowd I have ever seen. It was an absolute disgrace, I felt sorry for any parents dumb enough to bring children to the game,

You've never sat in the end-zone seats at a Bears game. As far as trash throwing goes at The Shrine, I've seen the field so littered because of an umpire's call that fans were allowed on the field to clean things up so play could continue. It took place before 80% of you were born, so it has to be viewed as another proud Wrigley Field tradition that continues today.

miker
08-21-2006, 06:45 PM
Wait! The Chicago Tribune has insisted for years that only White Sox fans behave badly...:o:

Nellie_Fox
08-21-2006, 11:51 PM
It's in our best interest to have two playoff contending teams. I, for one, could not contain my excitement if both teams had a chance to get to the WS...How great would that be?!How in the world is it "in our best interests" for the Cubs to be contending? The media in Chicago go absolutely nuts every time the Cubs are in contention. Believe me, if both teams were in the playoffs, the Cubs would be treated as the "sentimental favorites" by every media outlet in the city.

Let them be out of contention forever, and let Chicago return to being a Sox town like it was throughout the fifties and most of the sixties.

caulfield12
08-22-2006, 07:27 AM
What was the year that marked the turn in the Cubs starting to dominate the attendance wars? Was that in the late 70's or much earlier, the 60's?

Obviously, we had a bump from 1991-93, but, in general, the Cubs dominated attendance...but I think the White Sox had a pretty long streak themselves of outdrawing the Cubs, right?

PatK
08-22-2006, 10:45 AM
When I was a kid (born in 1970) nobody went to Cubs games.

Lip Man 1
08-22-2006, 10:58 AM
Caulfield:

It was the mid 60's when Leo Durocher came to manage the Cubs, they actually started to play better and most importantly, the race riots following Dr. King's assassination convinced everyone that the area around Comiskey Park wasn't safe. That and the Sox leaving WGN-TV after the exciting 67 season for a station that most folks living in Chicago couldn't even get.

Lip

Brewski
08-22-2006, 11:42 AM
Like racist comments at Wrigley are anything new.

The first time I heard a racial slur used out in the open in public was when I was a kid sitting by the Cubs bullpen when Lee Smith got up to warm up.

A bunch of guys sitting by us started gushing about how he was the "(slur beggining with N) Nolan Ryan".

That explains why Smith started here as a bashful, deferential young man and left sounding like an angry black militant. Listening to crap like that can have an effect on you.

caulfield12
08-22-2006, 12:23 PM
Through 2005, the Cubs have drawn greater attendance 60 times, and the White Sox 45 times, but the difference is primarily a recent effect, as the White Sox have only outdrawn the Cubs twice since 1984 (1991-92, the first two years after the current ballpark opened). The Cubs' attendance advantage in the last two decades can partly be attributed to the fact that their games began being broadcast nationally on WGN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WGN-TV) in 1978, creating a national following for the team and establishing Wrigley Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrigley_Field) as a tourist destination, while the White Sox only returned to WGN in 1990 after a 22-year absence. (The Tribune Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribune_Company), parent company of WGN, purchased the Cubs in 1981. Additionally, far fewer Sox games were shown on WGN after their return to the station.) As Chicago's South Side and suburbs are roughly equal in population to those on the North Side, the local fan bases of the two teams may be similar in size.

While Cubs attendance in 1981 had fallen below 10,000 per game, in Caray's first season attendance per game almost doubled (even though the Cubs finished 16 games below .500), and in 1983 the team enjoyed the 7th-highest attendance in its history despite falling 20 games under .500; in 1984, the team drew 2 million fans for the first time, a mark it has failed to reach in only one full season since then.

copyright, wikpedia.com

LITTLE NELL
08-22-2006, 01:48 PM
The Sox outdrew the Cubs every year but one from 1951 to 1967. The tide turned big time in 1969 when the Cubs almost won the east. Meanwhile on the south side a lousy team after17 winning seasons plus the race riots almost moved the Sox out of town. Sox started a comeback in attendance with Harry Carry and Dick Allen in the early 70s. Mid 70s Bill Veeck saved a moved to Seattle( remember S.O.S./ Save our Sox headed by Johnny Morris.

miker
08-22-2006, 02:00 PM
The Sox outdrew the Cubs every year but one from 1951 to 1967. The tide turned big time in 1969 when the Cubs almost won the east. Meanwhile on the south side a lousy team after17 winning seasons plus the race riots almost moved the Sox out of town. Sox started a comeback in attendance with Harry Carry and Dick Allen in the early 70s. Mid 70s Bill Veeck saved a moved to Seattle( remember S.O.S./ Save our Sox headed by Johnny Morris.
Irrelevant! Any good Cub fan will tell you that baseball history began when Harry took his six-pack of Budweiser to the self-proclaimed shrine in Lakeview.

LITTLE NELL
08-22-2006, 02:36 PM
If you want relevance read Lipmans post. The Sox leaving WGN in 68 was a major factor in Cubs dominance in later years. Kids grew up and could not watch the Sox because they did not have UHF tvs, so they turned to the Cubs. Also Sportsvision didnt help the cause, the Cubs had 162 games on free Wgn and to see the Sox you needed a box and money.

cheezheadsoxfan
08-22-2006, 04:46 PM
When I was a kid (born in 1970) nobody went to Cubs games.

I went to my one and only Cub game in 1966. There were about 15,000 people there and that was only because Koufax was pitching. That's the only reason I was there.

It comes down to TV exposure and marketing by the Tribune company, i.e. "so what if the team sucks, Wrigley is a sacred garden"

Nellie_Fox
08-22-2006, 11:46 PM
Wrigley is a sacred garden"
:tealpolice:
:tealtutor:

LITTLE NELL
08-24-2006, 06:25 AM
For most of the 50s and 60 Sox outdrew the Cubs almost 2 to 1. Perfect example was in 1962, I was 16 yrs. old and was a vendor at both parks selling 25 cent cokes or peanuts for 15 cents. I would always come home with 15 to 20 bucks from Comiskey, at Wrigley I was lucky if I made 5 bucks. Many afternoons there were only 3000 to 5000 fans at Wrigley. It was so bad that Phil Wrigley talked of playing night games at Soldier Field. That year Sox drew 1,131,000 to 602,000 for the Cubs. Back in those day 1 million fans was like the holy grail.

Cellview22
08-24-2006, 08:50 PM
Kids grew up and could not watch the Sox because they did not have UHF tvs, so they turned to the Cubs. Also Sportsvision didnt help the cause, the Cubs had 162 games on free Wgn and to see the Sox you needed a box and money.

The tide is turning.. just look at the youth in Chicago and see who they're rooting for. Most kids I talk to root for the Sox. And it was interesting watching the opening introductions of the LLWS last night on ESPN, the little leaguers from Lemont had to introduce themselves and tell who they're favorite player was. Almost all of them, except for 2 or 3 who said "Derrick Lee" or "Mark Prior", said someone from the White Sox. ..."my name is __ and my favorite player is Paul Konerko" was repeated a couple times.. also heard AJ Pierzynski, Jim Thome, Joe Creed, and Mark Buehrle.

Scottzilla
08-27-2006, 09:47 PM
And you know they had to show those cub answers even if there was only two of them.

viagracat
08-27-2006, 10:04 PM
Hard to believe that in my lifetime they used to close the upper decks during the week at Wrigley due to lack of attendance. That would be in the mid-60s, when Wrigley was just another old ballpark in a tired neighborhood inhabited by a team that stank every year. Wrigley is still an old ballpark inhabited by a team that stinks every year, but obviously the neighborhood has changed.

RadioheadRocks
08-28-2006, 12:02 AM
Hard to believe that in my lifetime they used to close the upper decks during the week at Wrigley due to lack of attendance. That would be in the mid-60s, when Wrigley was just another old ballpark in a tired neighborhood inhabited by a team that stank every year. Wrigley is still an old ballpark inhabited by a team that stinks every year, but obviously the neighborhood has changed.

The upper deck at Wrigley was also closed many times in the late 70s and early 80s, and even Harry Caray's first two seasons with the Cubs were pretty unremarkable (let's not forget how Lee Elia went off on the few fans who bothered showing up at Wrigley in 1983, only to boo his players). Bottom line, 1984 changed everything and is pretty much the flashpoint of the "Cub Town" mentality that the masses seem to subscribe to.

PaulDrake
08-28-2006, 09:29 AM
How in the world is it "in our best interests" for the Cubs to be contending? The media in Chicago go absolutely nuts every time the Cubs are in contention. Believe me, if both teams were in the playoffs, the Cubs would be treated as the "sentimental favorites" by every media outlet in the city.

Let them be out of contention forever, and let Chicago return to being a Sox town like it was throughout the fifties and most of the sixties. Amen.

gobears1987
08-28-2006, 10:31 AM
the 03 playoffs were the worst thing that could happen to that organization.

Lip Man 1
08-28-2006, 12:41 PM
Viagra:

The Cubs were closing the upper deck as recently as 1983. I have on video a story on that from WLS-TV in connection with their Sox special called 'Sox On The Move.'

Lip

maurice
08-28-2006, 02:11 PM
From Sunday's edition (http://www.suntimes.com/output/cubs/cst-spt-wrig27.html):
- Billy Williams talks about the racist hate mail he receioved when he palyed for the Cubs
- "in the last few seasons, there seems to have been no shortage of racially motivated hate mail directed at African-American Cubs"
- "it could have been written by racist non-Cubs fans--although it's tough to imagine someone without a rooting interest in the team taking the time to write"
- "Jones told USA Today he recently was awakened by a threatening call. And Baker said he must change his cell-phone number periodically to limit the number of disturbing calls he receives."
- "When players such as Hawkins go public with the threats they received, there is seldom an outpouring of support for them....One potential underlying message from the mainstream response is the players got what they deserved."
- "contrast the lack of furor about the Cubs' hate mail with the harsh criticism Baker received after remarking three years ago that black and Latino players could withstand high temperatures and hot sun better than white players."
- "During any given game at Wrigley, the large crowd is predominantly white. Outside the ballpark, the lone statue is not of Williams or of fellow African-American Hall of Famers Ernie Banks and Fergie Jenkins, but of broadcaster Harry Caray, who was, of course, white...[H]as the organization done enough to embrace the legacies of its great African-American players? Has it done enough to promote diversity in its fan base? And has it publicly denounced the recent spate of hate mail and threats in strong terms?"

Also, you gotta love this nugget, the latest evidence of pro-Cub Trib bias:
Cubs president Andy MacPhail didn't return a call seeking comment for this story, but it's safe to assume that Tribune Co. recently has become hypersensitive to racial issues involving its baseball team. Interestingly, you couldn't find Baker's quote about being lynched in the Tribune Co.'s newspaper because editors substituted the word ''criticized'' for the word ''lynched.''
:o:

mrfourni
08-28-2006, 02:45 PM
As for the specific cases of Hawkins and Patterson, they didn't play well. And they were far too sensitive for their own good.

I think i would be pretty sensitive too if idiots at any stadium were spewing this garbage my way.

MadetoOrta
08-28-2006, 04:01 PM
Seriously, if the shoe were on the other foot, what would the cubune be writing?

maurice
08-28-2006, 04:14 PM
Seriously, if the shoe were on the other foot, what would the cubune be writing?

The Cubune doesn't need evidence to impugn Sox fans. They just make some **** up. OTOH, if there's ACTUAL EVIDENCE against Cubs management, Cubs players, Cubs fans, the Cubs' neighborhood, the Cubs' stadium, etc., the PR branch of Cubs Inc. (the Chicago Tribune) comes out in full force to squash the news. If they don't Andy McFail will summon McGrath and Sullivan to his office for another dressing down.

maurice
08-30-2006, 12:40 PM
Also, you gotta love this nugget, the latest evidence of pro-Cub Trib bias:
"Cubs president Andy MacPhail didn't return a call seeking comment for this story, but it's safe to assume that Tribune Co. recently has become hypersensitive to racial issues involving its baseball team. Interestingly, you couldn't find Baker's quote about being lynched in the Tribune Co.'s newspaper because editors substituted the word 'criticized' for the word 'lynched.'"
:o:

Paul Sullivan (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/askthewriter/cs-060829askpaulsullivan,1,2087090.story?coll=cs-home-headlines) admits that this happened, but claims ignorance and refuses to name names:
Q: I was wondering if you could please provide an explanation as to why you or one of your supervisors edited Dusty Baker's quote stating that if he had let Greg Maddux throw 167 pitches the media would "lynch" him. As a subscriber I believe I have the right to be presented with the facts, not the Tribune's version of the facts. I understand edits when the comment is profane, but Baker's clearly fails to fall into such a category. . . . A day after the Tribune published an article on Dusty Baker and allegedly racist Cubs fans, editing Baker's quote reflects dubious ethics at best. I believe you owe your readership an explanation. --Russ Chibe, Chicago

A: I don't know exactly why, and it upset me as well. . . .

Other relevant snippets from the Q&A:
The Cubs are not doing anything about the hate mail because it's an issue that has been completely overblown in the media and the players and Dusty have not asked them to do anything about it as far as I know. I would imagine none of these idiots leave a return address. . . . Any intelligent human being is appalled by the fact that Baker and some players have received racist hate mail, but this is not something that's endemic to Chicago or the Cubs. With caller-ID and modern technology, I'd imagine anyone leaving a racist voice mail message could probably be tracked down, and hopefully prosecuted. The vast majority of fans judge Dusty and the players on their performance.

This last one shows that Sully still has a bit of common sense left in him:
Q: Please help me answer a question that my friends and I have been debating for the past month: When did the tradition of throwing back an opponents' home run ball begin and were the Cubs fans first to do so? --Sachin Mahajan, Chicago

A: I'm not sure, but it's one of the dumbest traditions in baseball. Anyone who would throw back a baseball to make a "statement" instead of giving it to a little kid is just an idiot.

Scottzilla
08-30-2006, 01:12 PM
I read and used to subscribe to the trib. but this cubs propaganda crap is getting rediculous.

"I don't know exactly why, and it upset me as well. I also was not aware the story was removed from chicagosports.com. Perhaps the chicagosports.com editor can enlighten us. (CS.com editor's note: The story (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-060823cubsbits,1,6772354.story?coll=cs-home-headlines) still appears on the site and was never taken down. Conspiracy theories be damned.)"

The editors not is enraging. i believe the tribune is now in a defensive stance regarding bias. and now just shoots down any criticism, no matter how legitimate, as conspiracy theory.

i might just have to start reading the suntimes online, even ifthere site is so ugly.

maurice
08-30-2006, 01:40 PM
CS.com editor's note: The story (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-060823cubsbits,1,6772354.story?coll=cs-home-headlines) still appears on the site and was never taken down.

Actually, it appears that it WAS taken down. The e-mailer presumably means that the link disappeared, not that the file was deleted from the server. When you click on "Cubs" content and look at the 8/23 stories, the "lynching" story ("Marmol's pitch count too high, Baker says") is nowhere to be found.

"Conspiracy theories" indeed.

SoxFan76
08-30-2006, 05:18 PM
The hateful things Cub fans spew out goes even beyond the race issue. Besides all of them saying "Isn't the southside full of gangbangers?" I get a lot of "You guys are hillbillies", "So are you going to mullet night?", "Sox fans like to beat people", etc. But you know what they say, if you lie to a group of people long enough, they will believe it. I've been truly offended at the things Cub fans say to me. It's one thing for us to joke around and say Cub fans are all gay, because obviously they're not, and even if they were, there's nothing wrong with that ("not that there's anything wrong with that"). But to refer to us as wife beating gang bangers, it gets a little offensive. Even to me, the guy who never gets offended. And I'm Irish and Italian, I've heard it all!

maurice
08-31-2006, 11:53 AM
Today's Trib article on Jimbo's (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-0608310242aug31,1,1751071.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed) goes way back in the time machine to 1997: "days when the bar was perceived [read: "portrayed"] to be stuck in a dangerous, racially charged part of town." That's either a backhanded compliment or the latest PR attempt to deflect heat from the Cubs' racial stories. You be the judge.

maurice
08-31-2006, 01:12 PM
Per this thread in the Clubhouse (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=78050), JD was asked whether he experienced any racist comments while playing for the Sox. Even though JD struggled early in his Sox career (kinda like J Jones on the other side of tiown), JD said no, Sox fans always treated him great.

What are the chances of the Cubune printing THAT?