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View Full Version : Poor Theo, he doesn't have enough $$$ to compete


caulfield12
08-21-2006, 10:59 AM
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/08/21/rich_in_natural_resources/

I don't think there are too many people out there feeling sorry for the guy.

NoShoesJoe
08-21-2006, 11:07 AM
Gee, too bad, so sad.

palehozenychicty
08-21-2006, 11:10 AM
:KW:

yawn.

Fenway
08-21-2006, 11:12 AM
Gee, too bad, so sad.

from Mike Lupica
It is always worth pointing out that the difference between what the Yankees pay their baseball players and what the Red Sox pay their baseball players is about what the world champion Chicago White Sox paid THEIR players last season

http://www.nydailynews.com/08-20-2006/sports/baseball/story/444930p-374707c.html

Believe me those comments are not flying well on WEEI this morning, not at all. When fans are paying thru the nose for seats they don't want to hear it.

Flight #24
08-21-2006, 11:24 AM
Thought experiment: Tony Clark's ball bounces off the wall instead of into the stands in the 9th inning of the 2004 ALCS. Instead of stranding men on 2d & 3d, one run scores, Yanks take the lead, Rivera comes in to close it out.

Without that, Theo Epstein's run as Boston GM is IMO viewed as pretty much status quo or a failure. Instead, he's a hero, able to get by regardless of what he says or how his team flops.

Since that title, he's made major moves to acquire: Matt Clement, David Wells, Josh Beckett, Coco Crisp, Mike Lowell, Wily Mo Pena, Edgar Renteria. All flops. He's also provided a running stream of crap at the bottom of the rotation: Jason Johnson, Kyle Snyder, and assorted "not ready for the big league" prospects. And his only "good" bullpen move was to convert their top SP prospect to a closer (and he's also now starting to come apart as the league "catches" up to him).

All with a payroll about 30-50% greater than all but one team in the league.

jdm2662
08-21-2006, 11:25 AM
Um, isn't Theo a Billy Beane type stat head guy? I thought they were the masters of building a team with less money...

1951Campbell
08-21-2006, 11:27 AM
Look, if your payroll is ~$120,000,000 and you may miss the playoffs entirely, there's a number of things that can be the cause:

1. Injuries

2. Lack of desire in players

3. GM cannot assess talent well

4. GM can assess talent well, but is willing to overpay for it

5. GM can assess talent, but not team's needs

Frankly, I think the Red Sox are suffering from 3-5 the most. Example: you need pitching so you go with David Wells? How many over-the-hill 300 pounders push you over the top to a World Series? C'mon.

1951Campbell
08-21-2006, 11:31 AM
Um, isn't Theo a Billy Beane type stat head guy? I thought they were the masters of building a team with less money...

Hey, $120,000,000 doesn't buy what it used to...

Baby Fisk
08-21-2006, 11:38 AM
Um, isn't Theo a Billy Beane type stat head guy? I thought they were the masters of building a team with less money...
People who credit the 2004 world series championship as a victory for "moneyball" instead of a victory for "money" are just talking nonsense.

Baby Fisk
08-21-2006, 11:43 AM
Frankly, I think the Red Sox are suffering from 3-5 the most. Example: you need pitching so you go with David Wells? How many over-the-hill 300 pounders push you over the top to a World Series? C'mon.
Bronson Arroyo being traded away was an eyebrow-raiser, considering the unstable Boston rotation at the start of the season. He may not be an elite arm, but they'd love to have him back now. Ironically, Arroyo might be starting in the post-season this year while his former teammates hit the links.

NoShoesJoe
08-21-2006, 11:49 AM
Look, if your payroll is ~$120,000,000 and you may miss the playoffs entirely, there's a number of things that can be the cause:

1. Injuries

2. Lack of desire in players

3. GM cannot assess talent well

4. GM can assess talent well, but is willing to overpay for it

5. GM can assess talent, but not team's needs

Frankly, I think the Red Sox are suffering from 3-5 the most. Example: you need pitching so you go with David Wells? How many over-the-hill 300 pounders push you over the top to a World Series? C'mon.

Cubs
Option #6
6. GM cannot assess talent well, but is STILL willing to overpay for it.

PatK
08-21-2006, 12:12 PM
What's funny is seeing all the folks in Beantown going back to whining about how the Yankees spend too much and no one can compete with them.

voodoochile
08-21-2006, 12:17 PM
People who credit the 2004 world series championship as a victory for "moneyball" instead of a victory for "money" are just talking nonsense.

Thank you. Red Sox are almost all FA acquisitions. I'm not crying for him in the slightest.

Fenway
08-21-2006, 12:27 PM
What's funny is seeing all the folks in Beantown going back to whining about how the Yankees spend too much and no one can compete with them.

Trust me the fans are NOT buying the poor us story this morning. Theo miscalulated BIGTIME on this one.

Look at these ticket prices!!!!!!
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/ticketing/seating_pricing.jsp

NESN may not bring in the $$$$ that YES does but it beats any other teams cable outlet.

1951Campbell
08-21-2006, 02:06 PM
People who credit the 2004 world series championship as a victory for "moneyball" instead of a victory for "money" are just talking nonsense.

Exactly. Give Billy Beane $120,000,000 and he drops the theories advanced in his book like a bad habit.

Milw
08-21-2006, 09:05 PM
Comparing the Red Sox payroll to the Yankees payroll is like comparing the White Sox pre-2006 A-word to the Cubs A-word: it misses the point.

Look at yourself in comparison to the league average, not your closest competitor, who happens to be a dramatic outlier.

SOXSINCE'70
08-21-2006, 10:49 PM
WAAAAHH!! The Yankees beat my ass 5 times in a row,WAAAAHH!!:whiner: :whiner:

chisoxmike
08-21-2006, 10:55 PM
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/08/21/rich_in_natural_resources/

I don't think there are too many people out there feeling sorry for the guy.

**** the Red Sox. They are the Yankees II in my opinion. I'll never feel sorry for them.

DSpivack
08-21-2006, 11:37 PM
Trust me the fans are NOT buying the poor us story this morning. Theo miscalulated BIGTIME on this one.

Look at these ticket prices!!!!!!
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/ticketing/seating_pricing.jsp

NESN may not bring in the $$$$ that YES does but it beats any other teams cable outlet.

Wow, nothing says they need a new stadium better than this. Screw nostalgia, let's keep the old ballparks yadda yadda yadda. Just rebuild it with the same dimensions if you're nostalgic, but with a seating arrangement that makes sense economically, not to mention a clean, new ballpark. Heck, Yankee Stadium makes $$$ and they're building a new one to make $$$$$$.

Also, that article pointed out that the 2004 team had the highest payroll ever for a WS winner. Never realized that before.

A. Cavatica
08-21-2006, 11:54 PM
Since that title, he's made major moves to acquire: Matt Clement, David Wells, Josh Beckett, Coco Crisp, Mike Lowell, Wily Mo Pena, Edgar Renteria. All flops. He's also provided a running stream of crap at the bottom of the rotation: Jason Johnson, Kyle Snyder, and assorted "not ready for the big league" prospects. And his only "good" bullpen move was to convert their top SP prospect to a closer (and he's also now starting to come apart as the league "catches" up to him).

It's not as one-sided as you claim.

Clement was pitching great until he got hit by a batted ball. His problems are all mental. Could not be anticipated; not Theo's fault.
Wells was 15-7 last year and he was cheap. Bosox should not have brought him back, but they got their money's worth out of him.
Beckett's been disappointing, but who here would not have gone after the guy? Almost everyone had him pegged as an ace, and he's bound to have seasons better than this one.
Crisp was overhyped in Boston to provide cover for the embarrassment of losing Damon to the Yankees, which is partly Theo's fault because he didn't extend Damon when he could. Once NY drove the price up on Damon, the Red Sox did the right thing and said so long. Then they went and got a cheap replacement who can replace 90% of Damon's production. (I'm not sure how much Theo was involved at this point.)
They didn't want Lowell, they took him and his big contract so they could land Beckett. But Lowell has been great for Boston. Nobody counts this as a flop.
While I'm no fan of Pena, it's too soon to call him a flop. (He's slugging .517.)
Renteria was an awful signing; they should have just kept Cabrera. And the way they dumped Renteria for just Andy Marte, leaving them with no shortstop, was even worse. Give Theo credit for recovering by acquiring Alex Gonzalez, who's played well for them.
Jason Johnson & Kyle Snyder: yes, crap, but finding good starting pitching on the scrap heap is always hard. I liked the Wade Miller gamble last year a lot better (even if it didn't work).
Bullpen: lots of crap here too, and lots of crap acquired last year, and they even gave us David Riske, who's better than most of their guys. I agree with you, Theo's bullpen moves have been bad ones.
How about getting Mark Loretta for (net) Josh Bard? Good move.

Flight #24
08-24-2006, 11:09 AM
It's not as one-sided as you claim.

Clement was pitching great until he got hit by a batted ball. His problems are all mental. Could not be anticipated; not Theo's fault.
Wells was 15-7 last year and he was cheap. Bosox should not have brought him back, but they got their money's worth out of him.
Beckett's been disappointing, but who here would not have gone after the guy? Almost everyone had him pegged as an ace, and he's bound to have seasons better than this one.
Crisp was overhyped in Boston to provide cover for the embarrassment of losing Damon to the Yankees, which is partly Theo's fault because he didn't extend Damon when he could. Once NY drove the price up on Damon, the Red Sox did the right thing and said so long. Then they went and got a cheap replacement who can replace 90% of Damon's production. (I'm not sure how much Theo was involved at this point.)
They didn't want Lowell, they took him and his big contract so they could land Beckett. But Lowell has been great for Boston. Nobody counts this as a flop.
While I'm no fan of Pena, it's too soon to call him a flop. (He's slugging .517.)
Renteria was an awful signing; they should have just kept Cabrera. And the way they dumped Renteria for just Andy Marte, leaving them with no shortstop, was even worse. Give Theo credit for recovering by acquiring Alex Gonzalez, who's played well for them.
Jason Johnson & Kyle Snyder: yes, crap, but finding good starting pitching on the scrap heap is always hard. I liked the Wade Miller gamble last year a lot better (even if it didn't work).
Bullpen: lots of crap here too, and lots of crap acquired last year, and they even gave us David Riske, who's better than most of their guys. I agree with you, Theo's bullpen moves have been bad ones.
How about getting Mark Loretta for (net) Josh Bard? Good move.

- C'mon AC - we've all seen Clement dominate at times and then for some reason or other, go into a tailspin. With the Cubs it happened routinely, and his FLA time also shows inconsistency. Wells - he's a good pitcher, but the past couple of years he's sat out more time, he's not the guy who went 6 of 7 years with 200+IP anymore. If you have a guy like these 2 in the #3 or 4 slot, you'd better have some serious depth or more stable guys in other slots. Instead, they had questionable guys at multiple spots in the rotation.

- Beckett's flopped in the AL, but they treated him like an ace and he'd never put up the IP and was making the switch. And they gave up some pretty productive guys for him. Much like you can make an argument for KW on the Vazquez deal, if he continues to struggle and Chris Young plays well, you have to look at both deals as net losers. But Theo compounded it by giving him a solid $$$ extension.

- Crisp may have been overhyped, but he's nowhere near "90%" of Damon. And he's not a CF. And they gave up a guy who was one of the top prospects at the time for him. No defending that move.

- Loretta was a good move, but the loss of Bard (& Shoppach) was pretty dumb when you have an aging catcher like Varitek. Another point at which Theo relied on guys who were likely to miss some time and didn't ensure the necesary depth behind them.

Bottom line is that he's created a $130M payroll and a team that were it not for the fact that the NL sucks would be .500. And the guys he's decided to spend significant $$$ on, for the most part, either suck (Beckett, Crisp) or were predictably unreliable (Clement, Wells, Varitek to a lesser extent). And a lot of the guys he's traded away are relatively quickly turning into solid contributors for other teams (Ramirez, Sanchez, Meredith, Bard, even Renteria is solid for the Braves). Oh yeah, and his decisions to let Pedro & Damon go while wasting money on these other guys......:rolleyes:

Flight #24
08-24-2006, 11:12 AM
FWIW, from SI http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/08/22/redsox.scoop/index.html, comments from baseball sources on Theo & the other GMs of his ilk.

Epstein is more personable but no more inclusive. He virtually disregarded three exceptional baseball people -- Bill Lajoie, Mike Port and Lee Thomas -- who combined brought about 100 years of experience and were all driven to work elsewhere.
IMO the key to success for ANY executive is to surround yourself with smart, talented people who will give you a variety of backgrounds & opinions (see Williams, Kenny). That doesn't appear to be the case here (at least judging by this article).

"If you'll notice, except Arizona [which made a waiver deal to get Livan Hernandez], none of the Moneyball teams made a trade,'' one critic said. "They all make trades too complex. One-for-one isn't in their vocabulary. They'll say, 'I'll get you this player' and they don't even have this player.'' And another critic added, "It's very difficult to make a trade with these guys. They're always trying to trade guys they don't actually have.''

Fenway
08-24-2006, 04:07 PM
Bill Lajoie did the Beckett trade while Theo was with Pearl Jam in South America. From local accounts Epstein was horrified about the deal and Lajoie left for the Dodgers.


That said, why did Theo give Beckett an extension?

A. Cavatica
08-24-2006, 09:02 PM
Bottom line is that he's created a $130M payroll and a team that were it not for the fact that the NL sucks would be .500. And the guys he's decided to spend significant $$$ on, for the most part, either suck (Beckett, Crisp) or were predictably unreliable (Clement, Wells, Varitek to a lesser extent). And a lot of the guys he's traded away are relatively quickly turning into solid contributors for other teams (Ramirez, Sanchez, Meredith, Bard, even Renteria is solid for the Braves). Oh yeah, and his decisions to let Pedro & Damon go while wasting money on these other guys......:rolleyes:

Beckett sucks while Clement is predictably unreliable? Beckett's a pretty good pitcher even if he is giving up gopher balls at an alarming rate this year. He's 26 years old and locked up long term. (Career so far: 54-42, 3.85 ERA, large contributor to one WS championship)

Clement is basically Vazquez. Clement is 2 years older, 87-86 lifetime, with a 4.47 ERA; Vaz is 100-101 with a 4.36. KW went after Clement in free agency so Theo wasn't exactly alone in his talent evaluation.

These guys are among the better starters who have changed teams in recent years. There are plenty of AL veterans who went to the NL and stumbled: think Ponson (or even Hudson & Mulder). It's incredibly hard to acquire good, young, affordable starters from outside your organization, and Clement and Beckett were just good moves that didn't work out.

Yeah, Pedro's a better pitcher than these guys (when healthy) and Damon's a better CF than Crisp, but will that still be true three years from now? You can't rip Theo for a $130M payroll and simultaneously rip him for being cheap about resigning Martinez and Damon...

maurice
08-24-2006, 09:34 PM
The main difference between the Sox rotation and the Boston rotation is that KW has 5 horses (+ McCarthy in reserve), while Epstein has talented pitchers who are huge injury risks. This is not a coincidence. KW's guys might give you a a 3.00 ERA or they might give you a 5.00 ERA. OTOH, every one of them almost certainly is going to stay healthy and pitch 200 innings. It would take a miracle for 5 of Epstein's guys to pitch 200 innings. Well, maybe they could combine to throw 200 innings.
:cool:

This year, only Schilling and Beckett are on pace to toss 200 innings, but who would be surprised if ESPN announced that they both landed on the DL and were lost for the rest of the season?

Tragg
08-24-2006, 09:49 PM
It's not as one-sided as you claim.
Crisp was overhyped in Boston to provide cover for the embarrassment of losing Damon to the Yankees, which is partly Theo's fault because he didn't extend Damon when he could. Once NY drove the price up on Damon, the Red Sox did the right thing and said so long. Then they went and got a cheap replacement who can replace 90% of Damon's production. (I'm not sure how much Theo was involved at this point.) Crisp's problem is that he isn't a very good CF. He can play LF fine, but his offensive production is well below par for a LF. So ultimately, I think he'll settle as a good fourth outfielder on a good team, or a below par CF or LF on a bad team.
You could say the same thing about Pods except that Pods is a little better OBP guy and a little faster, which makes Pods a much better lead-off hitter and as lead off, Pods is okay for a corner spot. But as we are seeing this year, once that production starts dropping - even just a little - we're all getting antsy with Pods manning left.

Vasquez has much more "Stuff" than Clement and has a higher upside. STats may be similar, but that's it.
Plus, Clement did a nice Calvin Schiraldi imitation in post-season last year...he was shakin in his drawers....he was scared.

dickallen15
08-24-2006, 10:16 PM
Being a good GM sometimes is dependent on luck. KW all of a sudden is the greatest GM who ever lived. Epstein has just as many rings, and because the Red Sox are now a few games behind in the WC, he's a dope. KW has been lucky. If Ordonez is re-signed, 2005 WS championship doesn't happen. If Dye decides to take the extra $1 million that Texas threw at him, it probably doesn't happen. If the Yankees don't make a last second offer to Jeret Wright, the Sox sign him and the WS is a pipedream. If the Angels don't waive an overweight kid with a very questionable attitude, the White Sox most likely don't win. If Billy Beane doesn't make a better offer for Jason Kendall than KW's, the White Sox don't win in 2005. If Matt Clement chooses the White Sox instead of the Red Sox, the White Sox don't win the WS. If Hawk Harrelson didn't personally know AJ Pierzinski since he was 14 years old, the Sox don't win the WS. If the Marlins don't ask the Sox to sweeten the pot even more when they almost dealt for AJ Burnett, thinking that Jose Contreras wasn't a good enough offer, the White Sox don't win the WS. The beautiful thing about baseball is everybody is wrong a lot of the time. To win a WS, you need a lot of pitching, and a lot of luck.

A. Cavatica
08-24-2006, 10:55 PM
To win a WS, you need a lot of pitching, and a lot of luck.

Well said!

Theo had a season where everything he touched turned to gold, and he won the World Series.

KW had a season where everything he touched turned to gold, and he won the World Series.

Two seasons later, Theo's luck has returned to normal, and he's garbage.

If we miss the playoffs (or make an early exit) two years running, KW will be garbage again.

I think both these guys are pretty good GMs compared to most of the ones I've seen in my lifetime. Ron Schueler, are you listening?

A. Cavatica
08-24-2006, 11:04 PM
Crisp's problem is that he isn't a very good CF. He can play LF fine, but his offensive production is well below par for a LF.

Damon was overrated as a CF too, especially his arm. Anyway, the Red Sox totally screwed up by assuming they'd be able to re-sign Damon, and they really had to scramble to find any kind of replacement. (If they hadn't gotten Crisp they would've probably dealt for Jeremy Reed.)

Theo certainly shares the blame on this one, but IIRC the whole thing came to a head when Theo was no longer the GM, and I'm not sure how much he was involved in getting Crisp. Fenway, what was Theo's role in all this?


Vasquez has much more "Stuff" than Clement and has a higher upside. STats may be similar, but that's it.
Plus, Clement did a nice Calvin Schiraldi imitation in post-season last year...he was shakin in his drawers....he was scared.

Clement has been pitching scared ever since he got hit by the batted ball. His stuff was not (and is not) the problem. I think it's a good comparison.

Flight #24
08-25-2006, 10:41 AM
Beckett sucks while Clement is predictably unreliable? Beckett's a pretty good pitcher even if he is giving up gopher balls at an alarming rate this year. He's 26 years old and locked up long term. (Career so far: 54-42, 3.85 ERA, large contributor to one WS championship)

Clement is basically Vazquez. Clement is 2 years older, 87-86 lifetime, with a 4.47 ERA; Vaz is 100-101 with a 4.36. KW went after Clement in free agency so Theo wasn't exactly alone in his talent evaluation.

These guys are among the better starters who have changed teams in recent years. There are plenty of AL veterans who went to the NL and stumbled: think Ponson (or even Hudson & Mulder). It's incredibly hard to acquire good, young, affordable starters from outside your organization, and Clement and Beckett were just good moves that didn't work out.

Yeah, Pedro's a better pitcher than these guys (when healthy) and Damon's a better CF than Crisp, but will that still be true three years from now? You can't rip Theo for a $130M payroll and simultaneously rip him for being cheap about resigning Martinez and Damon...

Beckett sucks this year. His HRs, his BBs, and his penchant for the big inning. He's young enough that he can turn it around, but so far that move is a giant steaming flop (and that's not even considering the performance of the guys FLA got in the deal).

Clement & Vaz are very similar. The difference is that KW got Vaz as his #5 and has McCarthy waiting in the wings. Theo got him as his #3, then got Wells (with his own uncertainty), traded backup Arroyo, and because of his bullpen mismanagement, his version of McCarthy is being used as a closer.

As for the payroll - I rip Theo for mismanaging the payroll. Instead of Renteria & Clement (total salary = $18.5M), he could have had Pedro & Cabrera (total salary = $21M) - in fact, he did have them! That's a $2.5M differential, something I'm fairly certain they could have shaved off had they attempted to resign either of these guys in-season. Yes Pedro will likely decline the next 2 years - but his performance to date combined with Clement's ongoing uncertainty make that a solid tradeoff to me. Plus there's the whole "franchise icon" aspect with Pedro as well as the whole "maximize the chances of winning while my other core guys (Schill, Papi, Manny) are in their prime" thing.

Flight #24
08-25-2006, 10:49 AM
By the bye - Clement's history shows over the past 3 years, his ERA jumps by a full run from pre to post ASB (3.71 to 4.77). While his 2005 ERA jumped from 3.85 to 5.72, his 2004 showed a similar jump from 2.91 to 5.02 pre and post.

"predictable uncertainty"

A. Cavatica
08-25-2006, 12:55 PM
Beckett looked pretty good last night.

Fenway
08-25-2006, 12:59 PM
Beckett looked pretty good last night.

for 6 innings

For six innings last night, Josh Beckett was every bit the pitcher the Red Sox hoped they were getting when they dealt for him last winter. He outdueled Angels rookie gunslinger Jered Weaver, allowing no runs on four hits and walking none while taking a 2-0 lead into the bottom of the seventh.
Then he was gone. In a flash. With a small cut on the left side of his right middle finger. Not a blister, he said.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/08/25/for_six_innings_clearly_a_cut_above_1156491349/

caulfield12
08-25-2006, 01:34 PM
Being a good GM sometimes is dependent on luck. KW all of a sudden is the greatest GM who ever lived. Epstein has just as many rings, and because the Red Sox are now a few games behind in the WC, he's a dope. KW has been lucky. If Ordonez is re-signed, 2005 WS championship doesn't happen. If Dye decides to take the extra $1 million that Texas threw at him, it probably doesn't happen. If the Yankees don't make a last second offer to Jeret Wright, the Sox sign him and the WS is a pipedream. If the Angels don't waive an overweight kid with a very questionable attitude, the White Sox most likely don't win. If Billy Beane doesn't make a better offer for Jason Kendall than KW's, the White Sox don't win in 2005. If Matt Clement chooses the White Sox instead of the Red Sox, the White Sox don't win the WS. If Hawk Harrelson didn't personally know AJ Pierzinski since he was 14 years old, the Sox don't win the WS. If the Marlins don't ask the Sox to sweeten the pot even more when they almost dealt for AJ Burnett, thinking that Jose Contreras wasn't a good enough offer, the White Sox don't win the WS. The beautiful thing about baseball is everybody is wrong a lot of the time. To win a WS, you need a lot of pitching, and a lot of luck.

Not to mention Garland/Singleton for Erstad and all the proposed mid-season trades that would have ended up with the Sox taking on Griffey or Ramirez.

caulfield12
08-25-2006, 01:37 PM
Beckett sucks this year. His HRs, his BBs, and his penchant for the big inning. He's young enough that he can turn it around, but so far that move is a giant steaming flop (and that's not even considering the performance of the guys FLA got in the deal).

Clement & Vaz are very similar. The difference is that KW got Vaz as his #5 and has McCarthy waiting in the wings. Theo got him as his #3, then got Wells (with his own uncertainty), traded backup Arroyo, and because of his bullpen mismanagement, his version of McCarthy is being used as a closer.

As for the payroll - I rip Theo for mismanaging the payroll. Instead of Renteria & Clement (total salary = $18.5M), he could have had Pedro & Cabrera (total salary = $21M) - in fact, he did have them! That's a $2.5M differential, something I'm fairly certain they could have shaved off had they attempted to resign either of these guys in-season. Yes Pedro will likely decline the next 2 years - but his performance to date combined with Clement's ongoing uncertainty make that a solid tradeoff to me. Plus there's the whole "franchise icon" aspect with Pedro as well as the whole "maximize the chances of winning while my other core guys (Schill, Papi, Manny) are in their prime" thing.

Who was supposed to be #2? In fact, with Schilling's age, I would think an argument could be made they were bringing him in to be a co #1 with Schilling, with Beckett assumed to gradually take over that role in the next couple of years.

Tragg
08-25-2006, 09:45 PM
Damon was overrated as a CF too, especially his arm. Anyway, the Red Sox totally screwed up by assuming they'd be able to re-sign Damon, and they really had to scramble to find any kind of replacement. (If they hadn't gotten Crisp they would've probably dealt for Jeremy Reed.)

I agree with you that Damon's not much of a CF...he's OBP is .370+ these days and he has a little power...that's his value as a lead-off hitter (we have a guy who has a .370 OBP...when he plays he hits 8th). Crisp is a .340 OBP guy, not a lot of power...that doesn't do much. .370 an .340 is a big, big difference.

I wanted the Sox to Sign Clement. I'm glad we didn't.
I agree with Dick...a lot of luck involved. Williams was saved by many trades he didn't make that would have been poor - same is true for a lot of GMs though.
(the AJ Burnett trade would have been a disaster - it was nonsensical on its face - trying to win a WS with a lazy pitcher that loves the disabled list - but Williams ended up getting his "stuff" with Vasquez, but thankfully,that one was after a World Championship.).