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OfficerKarkovice
02-21-2002, 03:14 PM
CF - Lofton
2B - Durham
DH - Thomas
RF - Ordonez
1B - Konerko
3B - Valentin
LF - Lee
C - Alomar
SS - Clayton

No surprises, but good to see that Jerry has a set plan for this year.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-soxnt21.html

FarWestChicago
02-21-2002, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
3B - Valentine
Well, there is one surprise. Who is the new guy at third and where is Manos? :smile:

RedPinStripes
02-21-2002, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Well, there is one surprise. Who is the new guy at third and where is Manos? :smile:

I see that is one of your pet peaves. Spelling Manos' names wrong. You gotten on me about that before. :D:

OfficerKarkovice
02-21-2002, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Well, there is one surprise. Who is the new guy at third and where is Manos? :smile:

Better West?

Soxheads
02-21-2002, 03:51 PM
Whenever I see Clayton in our lineup, it just tears at me.

If I may borrow a line from West, Manos Is Pure Guts!

FarWestChicago
02-21-2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice


Better West? Yes, Kark. Thank you. :smile:

doublem23
02-21-2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
CF - Lofton
2B - Durham
DH - Thomas
RF - Ordonez
1B - Konerko
3B - Valentin
LF - Lee
C - Alomar
SS - Clayton

While, like Kark mentioned, it is nice that Jerry has a more concrete plan than last year, I still must say I am pissed that Valentin is slated to hit 6th while Ray Ray is #2. Con sarn it, Jerry!

voodoochile
02-21-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by doublem23


While, like Kark mentioned, it is nice that Jerry has a more concrete plan than last year, I still must say I am pissed that Valentin is slated to hit 6th while Ray Ray is #2. Con sarn it, Jerry!

No, Ray is a better OBP guy. Keep him at the top of the lineup. Besides, Ray would take it much harder. Jose would bat ninth and play catcher if they told him to and still do it as well as he could. Ray has a more fragile ego and needs to bat early in the game to get his head on straight.

fogie
02-21-2002, 04:31 PM
Defence! Defence! Defence!
If we didn't have it last year with this line up, what makes Jerry think we will have it this year.
Kenny Lofton may have lost a step or two.
Carlos Lee he's a butcher in left field
Jose Valentine is not a third baseman
Ray Durham didn't have the greatest year a second base
We may win the central, but how much further, I don't know?

Fogie

RedPinStripes
02-21-2002, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by fogie

We may win the central, but how much further, I don't know?

Fogie

No more then usual. Unless the baseball magic is with the Sox for the first time in 86 years.

Foulke You
02-21-2002, 04:38 PM
Well Fogie, if you look at the glass is half full outlook:

Durham is in a contract year. Expect a high level of play from him.

Valentin can play anywhere and is probably best suited for SS but will be an adequate 3B.

I didn't notice Lofton losing a step in the outfield last year. In fact, I saw more homerun stealing leaping catch highlights from him last year then I've seen in a long time.

This lineup can score a TON of runs which can overcome a lot of defensive miscues.

RedPinStripes
02-21-2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Well Fogie, if you look at the glass is half full outlook:

Durham is in a contract year. Expect a high level of play from him.

Valentin can play anywhere and is probably best suited for SS but will be an adequate 3B.

I didn't notice Lofton losing a step in the outfield last year. In fact, I saw more homerun stealing leaping catch highlights from him last year then I've seen in a long time.

This lineup can score a TON of runs which can overcome a lot of defensive miscues.

Sox scored nearly 1000 runs in 2000 and layed low in the playoffs. This better not happen again. :whiner:

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


Sox scored nearly 1000 runs in 2000 and layed low in the playoffs. This better not happen again. :whiner:

well, I ripped on the Sox offense in October 2000 more than anyone, but the schedule maker for the playoffs last year is as much to blame as anyone. Putting all three games on in mid-afternoon, local time, guarantees that noone will be hitting. A John McGraw-style ballgame plays directly into Lou Pinella's style and the type of players that he had. That's not to take away from the Mariner's pitchers, who were great, but hitters on both teams were complaining about the lighting issues.

That said, a great offense will get you into the playoffs, but pitching and defense is what wins in playoff games. Look at the Indians, who consistently had the best offense in the AL, and the Yankees, who haven't had a good offensive ballclub since '98 (although that will change this year), and look at what those two teams have done in the postseason.

On a side note, a guy I know who's a Yankee fan had an interesting theory about why the Yankees win - they are willing to play as a team. Since noone is going to get a better offer on another ballclub, the incentive to play selfishly to rack up individual statistics is gone. therefore, players sacrifice their own stats for the good of the team, because the only reason to play is to win.

Paulwny
02-21-2002, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz

On a side note, a guy I know who's a Yankee fan had an interesting theory about why the Yankees win - they are willing to play as a team. Since noone is going to get a better offer on another ballclub, the incentive to play selfishly to rack up individual statistics is gone. therefore, players sacrifice their own stats for the good of the team, because the only reason to play is to win.

This makes a lot of sense. Quite an observation.

kermittheefrog
02-21-2002, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz

On a side note, a guy I know who's a Yankee fan had an interesting theory about why the Yankees win - they are willing to play as a team. Since noone is going to get a better offer on another ballclub, the incentive to play selfishly to rack up individual statistics is gone. therefore, players sacrifice their own stats for the good of the team, because the only reason to play is to win.

Sounds like the kind of person who said Rickey Henderson's selfish pursuit of records hurt his team. I'm really sure Rickey's attempts to get on base and score runs to set a record really hurt the team. Personally I don't care who the leadoff hitter is getting on base for just as long as he's doing it. When exactly does "sacrificing your own stats for the teams" come into play? I really dont' get the concept. Is it just like a zen thing? "I'm not hitting a home run for me, it's for the team" ????? :cool:

Daver
02-21-2002, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Sounds like the kind of person who said Rickey Henderson's selfish pursuit of records hurt his team. I'm really sure Rickey's attempts to get on base and score runs to set a record really hurt the team. Personally I don't care who the leadoff hitter is getting on base for just as long as he's doing it. When exactly does "sacrificing your own stats for the teams" come into play? I really dont' get the concept. Is it just like a zen thing? "I'm not hitting a home run for me, it's for the team" ????? :cool:

Zen has no reference to baseball,I checked.

voodoochile
02-22-2002, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Sounds like the kind of person who said Rickey Henderson's selfish pursuit of records hurt his team. I'm really sure Rickey's attempts to get on base and score runs to set a record really hurt the team. Personally I don't care who the leadoff hitter is getting on base for just as long as he's doing it. When exactly does "sacrificing your own stats for the teams" come into play? I really dont' get the concept. Is it just like a zen thing? "I'm not hitting a home run for me, it's for the team" ????? :cool:

Well said - as long as the stats are good, who cares why you do them.

Chisox_cali
02-22-2002, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by daver


Zen has no reference to baseball,I checked.

I think Barry Zito would think otherwise :smile:

czalgosz
02-22-2002, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Sounds like the kind of person who said Rickey Henderson's selfish pursuit of records hurt his team. I'm really sure Rickey's attempts to get on base and score runs to set a record really hurt the team. Personally I don't care who the leadoff hitter is getting on base for just as long as he's doing it. When exactly does "sacrificing your own stats for the teams" come into play? I really dont' get the concept. Is it just like a zen thing? "I'm not hitting a home run for me, it's for the team" ????? :cool:

Perfect example of how going for personal stats can hurt the team as a whole (true story) -

August game between the Cubs and the Astros. Late in the game, runners on first and second, one out, Sammy Sosa at the plate, Cubs trailing by 1. The Astros can't intentionally walk him, but they come as close as they can, by pitching around him and giving him nothing to hit. If Sammy just takes the walk, that sets up a bases-loaded, one out situation for the next guy, almost guaranteeing that the Cubs will at least tie the game. But that would mean that Sammy's not the hero, some other guy is. Sammy wants a homer and will accept nothing less. He starts lunging out over the plate, diving for balls a foot outside, hoping to get the pitcher to throw one over the plate. Finally, after the count is 2-2, he manages to get one in play, bouncing into an inning-ending double play. Sure, if he had hit the homer, it would have been great. But he was pursuing the homer, not the win. So the Cubs lost. Sosa has always been notorious for this crap. I remember reading something on Baseball Prospectus where they pointed out that Sammy seemed to have his best games in blowouts, in games where his offensive production does nothing to help, where they are already way ahead or way behind.

And Rickey Henderson did hurt his team with his pursuit of stolen base records, back in the 80s. I remember times when he would try to steal with his team down by 7 or up by 6. He didn't care if it took the bat out of the hands of the guy up there, or if the situation called for it. He wanted to be the greatest. And the media played into it.

On the Sox, I see the same thing with Ray Durham trying to go deep rather than try to get on base and make things happen.

On the Yankees, they do things like bunt when they need to, work a grounder the opposite way to move a runner into scoring position, and help each other out. Therefore, despite always having a below-average offense, they always seem to score the runs they need to.

Putting up big numbers is great. But when the pursuit of those numbers become an end in and of themselves, that's a problem.

AsInWreck
02-22-2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Perfect example of how going for personal stats can hurt the team as a whole (true story) -

August game between the Cubs and the Astros. Late in the game, runners on first and second, one out, Sammy Sosa at the plate, Cubs trailing by 1. The Astros can't intentionally walk him, but they come as close as they can, by pitching around him and giving him nothing to hit. If Sammy just takes the walk, that sets up a bases-loaded, one out situation for the next guy, almost guaranteeing that the Cubs will at least tie the game. But that would mean that Sammy's not the hero, some other guy is. Sammy wants a homer and will accept nothing less. He starts lunging out over the plate, diving for balls a foot outside, hoping to get the pitcher to throw one over the plate. Finally, after the count is 2-2, he manages to get one in play, bouncing into an inning-ending double play. Sure, if he had hit the homer, it would have been great. But he was pursuing the homer, not the win. So the Cubs lost. Sosa has always been notorious for this crap. I remember reading something on Baseball Prospectus where they pointed out that Sammy seemed to have his best games in blowouts, in games where his offensive production does nothing to help, where they are already way ahead or way behind.

And Rickey Henderson did hurt his team with his pursuit of stolen base records, back in the 80s. I remember times when he would try to steal with his team down by 7 or up by 6. He didn't care if it took the bat out of the hands of the guy up there, or if the situation called for it. He wanted to be the greatest. And the media played into it.

On the Sox, I see the same thing with Ray Durham trying to go deep rather than try to get on base and make things happen.

On the Yankees, they do things like bunt when they need to, work a grounder the opposite way to move a runner into scoring position, and help each other out. Therefore, despite always having a below-average offense, they always seem to score the runs they need to.

Putting up big numbers is great. But when the pursuit of those numbers become an end in and of themselves, that's a problem.

I'm glad you said it so i didn't have to