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SoxWillWin
08-12-2006, 03:29 PM
this from todays gamenotes on espn.com

Trying to become the majors' first 15-game winner, Verlander allowed five runs on a career-high 13 hits in five innings, including two-run homers by Jim Thome (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4762) and A.J. Pierzynski (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6109) in the fifth. "They saw something, to their credit. I'm certainly not talking about anyone cheating, that's not what I'm talking about," Leyland said. The red flag was when Thome connected on a changeup. "That's pretty suspicious when a guy looks at five or six fastballs at 95 and 96 and doesn't even flinch on a changeup, stayed back on it and hit it out of the ballpark," Leyland said.

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-12-2006, 03:31 PM
:whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner:

TDog
08-12-2006, 03:35 PM
Ignoring the possibility that his pitcher tipped the change. Thome is an experienced hitter.

If the Sox were stealing signs as a matter of practice, they wouldn't be in second place.

MrRoboto83
08-12-2006, 03:37 PM
I don't think that was wining. Leyand sugests that Verlander was tipping his pitches.

batmanZoSo
08-12-2006, 03:42 PM
I don't think that was wining. Leyand sugests that Verlander was tipping his pitches.

I don't think so either. If your signs get picked up that's fair game, plain and simple. They know that, we know that. Although I don't think that at bat was necessarily a case of it. I mean Thome can hit a 95 mph fastball, I think that's been proven more than just a few times. How many in a row does he think he's gonna get before he gets the junk?

A.T. Money
08-12-2006, 03:43 PM
Maybe Thome saw a pattern? Verlander was throwing all offspeed pitches with 2 strikes.

Timmy D's
08-12-2006, 03:44 PM
Well they'll have plenty of time to ponder it in October, while they're sitting on their couches drinkin suds wonderin' what happened to their commanding lead of the division, as they watch the Sox repeat.
No soup for you Leyland!!!!!!!!!
:gulp: :gulp:

jdm2662
08-12-2006, 03:49 PM
How is this whinning? How many times did this very board say/ask if Buehrle was tipping his pitches? Leyland was probably asked what went wrong, and he stated what he thought. Whinning would be something that steriod boy (Giambi) did when he said he'd have about 20 or more hits if it weren't for the shift.

MarySwiss
08-12-2006, 03:54 PM
I don't think it was so bad either, but maybe he should consider if it was something the Tigers did to tip off JT. Like--oh, I don't know--running to the top of the dugout to watch the changeup?

Frontman
08-12-2006, 05:12 PM
How is this whinning? How many times did this very board say/ask if Buehrle was tipping his pitches? Leyland was probably asked what went wrong, and he stated what he thought. Whinning would be something that steriod boy (Giambi) did when he said he'd have about 20 or more hits if it weren't for the shift.

The Whining comes from the "I'm certainly not talking about anyone cheating, that's not what I'm talking about," comment. Leland, if you bring it up, then yes, that's precisely what you want folks to think. Its the same old thing of "I don't mean to say 'I told you so but,'" or the ever popular, "It's not about the money." Yes, it is. Leland wants folks to focus on the word "cheating" and ignore the fact his players tipped not only yesterday's pitches, but the pick off play Mark had in today's game. It's not cheating to play heads up ball.

It's the same way they knew Crede was coming home on that bunt attempt by Uribe, the same way Mark cleanly picked off their guy (I forget who was on) when Farmer commented on the fact that the entire Tigers bench came to the rail after the sign. If the guy in the booth notices the players actions, I'm sure a left handed pitcher facing the dugout noticed 24+ players/coaches/staff come to the railing. They got our steal sign, and they practically put up a poster to Mark saying "PICK HIM OFF, HE'S GOING TO GO!"

I hate that crap that Leland, LaRussa, and the rest started this year. Stop whining about "cheating" and "stealing signs" when stealing the freakin' signs are a part of the game.

Front

ZombieRob
08-12-2006, 05:19 PM
Would any of you be shocked if Verlander falls of the wagon a little bit? this is his first full season and im sure hes not used to pitching this many games.So he was tipping his pitchers the 2 prior times he faced us? Thats a load of crap .The Sox just have Verlanders number.Just like Jack Morris, Frank Tanana and Johan Santana have ours.

kwolf68
08-12-2006, 05:31 PM
What a bunch of un-grateful arrogant *******...these Detroit Tigers.

Look, the bottom line is the White sox have to win this division, because the weenie Tiggers are not ready.

Whining, excuse making,,,crying and moaning.

Verlander...you dingle-berry...outside of Thome we got like...what ?? errr, 25 hits off you in 5 innings? You were beaten down and your opponent 3-hit your team.

YOu should tip your cap and get ready for the next game. I hate panzies like this. Lets make them die like dogs.

Mod edit: See the red part? That's where you evaded the language filter. See you in a week.

Mod edit of mod edit: Oops...looks like we won't be seeing you at all.

caulfield12
08-12-2006, 06:30 PM
Any distraction or conspiracy theories are only going to make things worse for the Tigers when this lead tightens up...just excuses. The Tigers play like they normally do and they win that game seven or eight out of ten times with the three run lead.

Iguana775
08-12-2006, 09:30 PM
this from todays gamenotes on espn.com

Probably has nothing to do with the years of experience that Thome has and that Verlander is a rook? no, couldnt be.... :whiner:

1951Campbell
08-12-2006, 10:23 PM
Probably has nothing to do with the years of experience that Thome has and that Verlander is a rook? no, couldnt be.... :whiner:

Pfft, no doubt...

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/pwned-48495.jpg

Sox-o-matic
08-12-2006, 11:11 PM
I guess Thome just invented the idea of sitting on pitch yesterday.

slobes
08-12-2006, 11:20 PM
I was listening to the Score today and someone brought up a good point about how every time something like this happens, it's blamed on stealing signs. 98% of the time, it's just the fact that the hitter is an experienced player, guessed what was coming, and got it right. It would be the same thing to say that Leyland somehow knew that squeeze play was on. However, Lou Piniella knew it was coming too. It's the fact that they both are/were big league managers, so they know the game really well. The same goes for Thome; he guessed what was coming and got it right.

TornLabrum
08-12-2006, 11:21 PM
I was listening to the Score today and someone brought up a good point about how every time something like this happens, it's blamed on stealing signs. 98% of the time, it's just the fact that the hitter is an experienced player, guessed what was coming, and got it right. It would be the same thing to say that Leyland somehow knew that squeeze play was on. However, Lou Piniella knew it was coming too. It's the fact that they both are/were big league managers, so they know the game really well. The same goes for Thome; he guessed what was coming and got it right.

Yup, and had he guessed wrong he would have swung and missed and nobody would have said a word.

Domeshot17
08-12-2006, 11:45 PM
I think Leyland said it best, NOT CHEATING, he is saying they saw something off verlander. Its Verlanders fault, while I hate um still, I have a good deal of respect for most of this tiger team (I think Monroe is a POS human being, I would hate him on any team he plays for).

Frontman
08-12-2006, 11:50 PM
I think Leyland said it best, NOT CHEATING, he is saying they saw something off verlander. Its Verlanders fault, while I hate um still, I have a good deal of respect for most of this tiger team (I think Monroe is a POS human being, I would hate him on any team he plays for).

I have zero respect for managers who use the post-game press confrence to make the team that won sound like they did something "wrong" to win. Its the same way Leyland dropped the "that's suspicisous" comment as well. Its excuse making, instead of "hey, they got the better of us. We need to do better and Verlander needs to learn to not tip his pitches," like he should of said. Instead, we get Leyland making sign stealing sound like "cheating."

Front

Clarkdog
08-13-2006, 06:42 AM
Verlander was tiping his pitches all night and your didn't need to be a major league hitter to see it. It had everything to do with how he was locating. About 95% of his fastballs were up in the zone. And his change was always down in the zone. That is how you can pick up that pitch and drive it out of the park after seeing five 97 mph fast balls. That night when Verlander was down, Sox hitters just stayed back. Podesdnik took the other route, he just cheated up in the zone and got two hits on high fastballs, not normally a pitch you can catch up to unless you cheat a bit.

ode to veeck
08-13-2006, 06:45 AM
Verlander was tiping his pitches all night and your didn't need to be a major league hitter to see it. It had everything to do with how he was locating. About 95% of his fastballs were up in the zone. And his change was always down in the zone. That is how you can pick up that pitch and drive it out of the park after seeing five 97 mph fast balls. That night when Verlander was down, Sox hitters just stayed back. Podesdnik took the other root, he just cheated up in the zone and got two hits on high fastballs, not normally a pitch you can catch up to unless you cheat a bit.

and that's exactly what Leland was saying, i.e. that he was tipping his pitches, not that the Sox were cheating, as was widely misinterpreted

my5thbench
08-13-2006, 08:02 AM
if the Sox can sweep today perhaps Hawk's "greased tee in the Tiger's behinds" will get a little bit tighter...go go SOXXXXXXXXXXX

SoxWillWin
08-13-2006, 08:18 AM
okay so maybe I shouldn't haved titled the thread "whining tigers", but from my point of view most of the time someone is giving an Excuse for something they're whining (my kids do it all the time, "BUT DADDY.....")

But still something about that quote doesn't sit right with me.

wassagstdu
08-13-2006, 08:22 AM
I have zero respect for managers who use the post-game press confrence to make the team that won sound like they did something "wrong" to win. Front

Does anyone understand the difference between "tipping pitches" and "stealing signs?" If the pitcher uses a different motion or stance for his pitches how is it wrong for the hitter to take notice? And while it might be a little closer to the gray area, I think there is nothing wrong with stealing signs either -- provided it is liimited to those on the field or in the dugout (not on TV or in center field with binoculars).

.

Parrothead
08-13-2006, 09:18 AM
this from todays gamenotes on espn.com

Maybe Eric Cooper had something to do with it.

bryPt
08-13-2006, 09:23 AM
Hmmm, I think a little 'ol team from Michigan is starting to feel the pressure!

rdwj
08-13-2006, 09:36 AM
They saw something, to their credit. I'm certainly not talking about anyone cheating, that's not what I'm talking about," Leyland said.

Sounds like giving credit where it's due. Hardly whining.

Sox-o-matic
08-13-2006, 09:36 AM
I think Leyland said it best, NOT CHEATING, he is saying they saw something off verlander. Its Verlanders fault, while I hate um still, I have a good deal of respect for most of this tiger team (I think Monroe is a POS human being, I would hate him on any team he plays for).

Wrong? The Sox only had what, 4 hits off him? Yeah, he sure was getting lit up. If anything was wrong, it was their ****ty defense behind them. Leyland should be smart enough to realize this.

EDIT: My bad, I'm thinking of the Kenny Rogers game. Anyway, if Verlander was tipping his pitches or anything like that, you can bet the Sox will let everyone and their mothers know.

Save McCuddy's
08-13-2006, 11:19 AM
It seemed to me that although 95 to 96 is a quick fastball indeed, Sox hitters were able to get to it and foul it off on Friday night. When you can spoil the gas, you have more of an opportunity to guess change-up.That wasn't the case earlier this year with Verlander humming more like 98 or 99. Maybe this is just part of being a rookie and pitching into unchartered waters innings wise.

chopperjc
08-14-2006, 10:57 AM
If you are not cheating you are not trying!
:tongue:

russ99
08-14-2006, 11:38 AM
I don't buy it. "Tipping pitches" is when the pitcher does something during or before the windup that indicates the pitch he's about to throw.

If a batter finds a pattern in the pitcher's pitches and locations, that's just stupid pitching and smart hitter recognition. Verlander was trying to get cute on pitches and locations the whole game (for example the three straight curves to Anderson.)

If I could tell at home, I'm sure Major League hitters could pick it up right away.

Stop whining, Tigers and blame your own pitcher for his bad outing.

Tiger23
08-14-2006, 12:24 PM
It seems like if Leyland thought there was foul play he would have come out and said it. I doubt he would hold a word back if he thought his team was getting cheated in any way.

My question is this: How is stealing signs or tipped pitches cheating in any way? I mean unless its something like the earlier accusations of the camera in CF (don't remember the exact story there). If you have a chance to gain an advantage you take it, and if the other team is giving it to you its their own fault. Everyone knows this including Jim Leyland.

My opinion is that he is only trying to correct Verlander's motion, nothing more.

viagracat
08-14-2006, 12:57 PM
Maybe Leyland, LaRussa and Showalter hang out in the same bars in the offseason to work out new mind games to play against their opponents. This is nothing more than Leyland trying to get under the Sox's (and their fans) skin. Good managers do this. Hell, Ozzie does stuff like that all the time. :smile:

maurice
08-14-2006, 03:30 PM
Leyland obviously is not opposed to stealing signs. He stole the Sox signs at least twice during the 3-game set.

DaleJRFan
08-14-2006, 03:49 PM
How is this whinning? How many times did this very board say/ask if Buehrle was tipping his pitches? Leyland was probably asked what went wrong, and he stated what he thought. Whinning would be something that steriod boy (Giambi) did when he said he'd have about 20 or more hits if it weren't for the shift.

David Ortiz said the same thing, claiming that if the defense wasn't shifted (failing to mention his inability to hit the other way) that he would be hitting 350. Isn't the point of defense to make outs?? Ugh.:rolleyes:

Soxfanspcu11
08-14-2006, 04:00 PM
I don't think that was wining. Leyand sugests that Verlander was tipping his pitches.

Using words like "red-flag" and "suspicious" is whinning. It's grasping at straws.

As someone else in this thread said, he is implying cheating, otherwise he would never bring it up. It's like when someone says something like, "I'm not saying that that girl is a slut but......(fill in the blank). Of course that is what you are saying. If that wasn't what you were saying, you wouldn't have to immediately defend your actions.

I don't really care what Leland says. His team got their ass kicked all over the place, he is frustrated. He knows that the Tigers can't compete with the Sox and I believe he is starting to get scared.

It's not our problem though, let him say whatever.