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Jerry_Manuel
02-20-2002, 06:42 PM
From the Sun Times:

LAGGING BEHIND: Third-base prospect Joe Crede reported to camp Tuesday to get in extra work, but it isn't the extra work Manuel was hoping for from Crede.

Manuel said he would have liked to see the 23-year-old play winter ball this offseason. While he said it won't hurt Crede's chances of making the team, the decision won't help him, either.

''I believe in winter ball, that's my philosophy,'' Manuel said. ''This is a game you need to play as much as you can. If he went out and dominated one of those leagues, then you would have to think about [the situation] differently.''

Daver
02-20-2002, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
From the Sun Times:

LAGGING BEHIND: Third-base prospect Joe Crede reported to camp Tuesday to get in extra work, but it isn't the extra work Manuel was hoping for from Crede.

Manuel said he would have liked to see the 23-year-old play winter ball this offseason. While he said it won't hurt Crede's chances of making the team, the decision won't help him, either.

''I believe in winter ball, that's my philosophy,'' Manuel said. ''This is a game you need to play as much as you can. If he went out and dominated one of those leagues, then you would have to think about [the situation] differently.''

JM did say pretty much the same thing last year,I think in reference to Carlos Lee,who did play winter ball last year.

Jerry_Manuel
02-20-2002, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by daver
JM did say pretty much the same thing last year,I think in reference to Carlos Lee,who did play winter ball last year.

Crede isn't going to make the team because of you know who, not because he didn't play winter ball.

Lee needs a softball glove, not winter ball.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-20-2002, 06:58 PM
What a load of crap. Manuel already has his mind made up. In fact, based on how he used Crede last September (Oh, that's right he didn't use him at all!), there isn't a chance Crede would get anything more than the courtesy look in camp this spring, anyway.

Either Manuel sees a problem with Crede that nobody else sees, or he's simply looking for a spot to play Jose Valentin. The whole situation has become a bad joke, if you ask me.

RedPinStripes
02-20-2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Crede isn't going to make the team because of you know who, not because he didn't play winter ball.

Lee needs a softball glove, not winter ball.

Soft ball glove does nothing when you can't read the ball off the bat and it's already 2 feet over your head or 2 feet infront of you. I guess it could help the times when the ball tips off his glove though.

Jerry_Manuel
02-20-2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Soft ball glove does nothing when you can't read the ball off the bat and it's already 2 feet over your head or 2 feet infront of you. I guess it could help the times when the ball tips off his glove though.

When he losses the ball in the Humpdome, it won't hurt his head. :smile:

RedPinStripes
02-20-2002, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


At the very least it cushions the blow from the ball lost in the Humpdome.

LOL!

Soxheads
02-20-2002, 07:06 PM
Guys, believe me when I say when I am older, and a billionaire, and I buy the Sox, I will listen to the fans, especially you people here at WSI :smile: I wouldn't let anything go on like what is going on now. I suppose I could dole out some free tickets too. :D: I could maybe name some of you to my staff. Either that or I'm just going crazy.

RichH55
02-20-2002, 07:07 PM
Well another certain player :hitless didnt play any winter ball either can we send his ass to Triple A as well?

Daver
02-20-2002, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Well another certain player :hitless didnt play any winter ball either can we send his ass to Triple A as well?

The California Penal League comes to mind.

RedPinStripes
02-20-2002, 07:16 PM
I just don't know if I could bare it if Royce had a season ending injury crossing the street.

Pete_SSAC
02-20-2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel

''I believe in winter ball, that's my philosophy,'' Manuel said. ''This is a game you need to play as much as you can. If he went out and dominated one of those leagues, then you would have to think about [the situation] differently.''

:rowand
"Yeah, you can play in winter ball and you'll be able to play everyday, like me!"

- Pete

duke of dorwood
02-21-2002, 09:58 AM
This must mean Manos , who didn't hit in Winter ball, is in trouble if Winter Ball is so important.

:firejerry

Paulwny
02-21-2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
From the Sun Times:

Manuel said he would have liked to see the 23-year-old play winter ball this offseason ''I believe in winter ball, that's my philosophy,'' .''


A quote from an unknown player:
"They said I was such a great prospect that they were sending me to a winter league. When I stepped off the plane I was in Greenland."
Maybe that's why Crede refused.

voodoochile
02-21-2002, 12:28 PM
You know, if I was a young employee (for any company) trying to earn my bosses trust and respect, trying to make myself stronger and a better worker, trying to improve my ability so I can help the team I am part of - I do what my boss asks within reason. Especially when the request is geared toward making me better at my job. Since winter league satisfies all of the above conditions, Crede should have done it. What has this kid proven so far? Nothing... Not saying he is a bad player, but he is still a minor leaguer. He needs to adjust his attitude and start doing whatever it takes to get on the big club...

Maybe his chances of making the club this year were minimal to begin with, but how much did he improve those odds by refusing to play winter ball?

This isn't the first time the team has made this statement, they have been talking about it for a few months now...

Paulwny
02-21-2002, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You know, if I was a young employee (for any company) trying to earn my bosses trust and respect, trying to make myself stronger and a better worker, trying to improve my ability so I can help the team I am part of - I do what my boss asks within reason ...

I think Mike Caruso also refused.

duke of dorwood
02-21-2002, 12:44 PM
The Winter Leagues seem to be a great place IF you are learning a new position, or doing something different like maybe learning to switch hit or something. If someone does well there, what does it prove?

PaleHoseGeorge
02-21-2002, 01:48 PM
Did I miss something here? Where was it ever written that Crede refused to play winter ball? Manuel is using it as an excuse for why Crede won't get much of a shot this spring, but then Manuel didn't give him much of a shot last September either when the games were meaningless, too.

I know Caruso was told to play over the winter in 1998-99, and he didn't. In fact, he didn't even work out. That led directly to Manuel's assertion that Caruso needed competition for the 2000 season--resulting in the Valentin/Eldred trade.

I can understand Crede not getting his shot in 1999 (he was hurt), and 2000 (the team was busy clinching a title), but what excuse can anyone offer for Manuel benching Crede the last three weeks of the 2001 season?

I'm betting Manuel's mind was made up long before Crede sat out winter ball.

RedPinStripes
02-21-2002, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Did I miss something here? Where was it ever written that Crede refused to play winter ball? Manuel is using it as an excuse for why Crede won't get much of a shot this spring, but then Manuel didn't give him much of a shot last September either when the games were meaningless, too.

I know Caruso was told to play over the winter in 1998-99, and he didn't. In fact, he didn't even work out. That led directly to Manuel's assertion that Caruso needed competition for the 2000 season--resulting in the Valentin/Eldred trade.

I can understand Crede not getting his shot in 1999 (he was hurt), and 2000 (the team was busy clinching a title), but what excuse can anyone offer for Manuel benching Crede the last three weeks of the 2001 season?

I'm betting Manuel's mind was made up long before Crede sat out winter ball.

I lve how manuel always gets caught in his own bull****. What was this big talk at Sox fest in one room that Crede has a shot, then the next room, I hear Valentine and Clayton are the every day players. ***? Make up you mind Jerry. He already posted his linup in the paper today. It's the same one they talked about at Sox fest. So the only competition there is, is the 4th and 5th spot for the rotation unless he already has that figured out. I get so sick of hearing manuel talk about the players history. Clayton has a history of being a jagoff and going through long hitless straks. He knows this and there is no competition in ST. He already the man for SS. What kind of politics are there with KW and JM? Certain players win, certain players lose. That's all there is to it

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


I lve how manuel always gets caught in his own bull****. What was this big talk at Sox fest in one room that Crede has a shot, then the next room, I hear Valentine and Clayton are the every day players. ***? Make up you mind Jerry. He already posted his linup in the paper today. It's the same one they talked about at Sox fest. So the only competition there is, is the 4th and 5th spot for the rotation unless he already has that figured out. I get so sick of hearing manuel talk about the players history. Clayton has a history of being a jagoff and going through long hitless straks. He knows this and there is no competition in ST. He already the man for SS. What kind of politics are there with KW and JM? Certain players win, certain players lose. That's all there is to it

Well, IMO you should have a majority of your decisions made before Spring Training starts. A lot of deceiving things happen in Spring Training - Julio Ramirez and Josh Paul hit .400, Frank Thomas scuffles, etc., etc.

Generally, you should have very few question marks heading into spring training. Maybe one rotation spot open, maybe a couple spots in the bullpen, maybe a bench slot, but your starting lineup should be set before Spring Training even starts, barring injury. One of the main problems going into the start of the season last year was that there were too many questions in February for one Spring Training to answer.

Where I do agree is in this - last season, there should have been three real battles for bench slots - Julio Ramirez vs. Aaron Rowand, Jeff Liefer vs. Harold Baines, and Josh Paul vs. Mark Johnson. During Spring Training, Paul, Ramirez, and Baines played practically every day, while Rowand, Johnson and Liefer sat. It was pretty clear that the decision had been made before one pitch had been thrown.

If I'm manager, I have my starters all set, and I let Spring Training decide the bench. But I am just some idiot who knows nothing about baseball.

voodoochile
02-21-2002, 02:52 PM
I don't know whether Crede refused to play winter ball, but if the team suggested he do so and he didn't he has to accept that they are not going to be happy with him. Maybe it is all just spin, but the facts remain. The Sox have publicly stated that they are not happy with some aspects of Crede's game and he isn't doing himself or the team any favors by not busting his hump overtime to correct those issues...

Does he think he is guaranteed a slot on the big club because at one time he was the top prospect in the organization? Everyone here likes to talk about attitude... What does it say about a guys attitude when he won't do everything possible to improve his game when he is trying to make the team?

moochpuppy
02-21-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
What does it say about a guys attitude when he won't do everything possible to improve his game when he is trying to make the team?


:shammy

"Yes, don't listen to anybody kid. Do what I did and you will be the best player ever, except for me. There is no "I" in team but there is no team without "ME"."

RichH55
02-21-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I don't know whether Crede refused to play winter ball, but if the team suggested he do so and he didn't he has to accept that they are not going to be happy with him. Maybe it is all just spin, but the facts remain. The Sox have publicly stated that they are not happy with some aspects of Crede's game and he isn't doing himself or the team any favors by not busting his hump overtime to correct those issues...

Does he think he is guaranteed a slot on the big club because at one time he was the top prospect in the organization? Everyone here likes to talk about attitude... What does it say about a guys attitude when he won't do everything possible to improve his game when he is trying to make the team?


Let me qualify this by saying I like Joe Crede and want him to get his shot(everyday 3B with Jose at SS)...but I agree with the above...go play Winter Ball...........its not a bad idea generally and if your bosses like it too you're golden....make it as tough as you can for them not to let you play!

czalgosz
02-21-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by RichH55



Let me qualify this by saying I like Joe Crede and want him to get his shot(everyday 3B with Jose at SS)...but I agree with the above...go play Winter Ball...........its not a bad idea generally and if your bosses like it too you're golden....make it as tough as you can for them not to let you play!

Well, it obviously wouldn't have been a bad idea for him to play winter ball, but I can't say that I'd blame him for not wanting to spend his off-time thousands of miles away from his family. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that Manuel would mention that to the media. If Manuel has a problem with Crede, he should keep that between the two of them.

voodoochile
02-21-2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Well, it obviously wouldn't have been a bad idea for him to play winter ball, but I can't say that I'd blame him for not wanting to spend his off-time thousands of miles away from his family. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that Manuel would mention that to the media. If Manuel has a problem with Crede, he should keep that between the two of them.

Isn't that what he did last year? Maybe it is time somebody got in Crede's face and said, "Do this, or your not playing." Then at least he would know exactly what is expected of him.

I too like Crede and at the least we can all agree that there is plenty of misinformation about him and what the team expects of him out there. Maybe a little less spin and a bit more directness would be in order.

voodoochile
02-21-2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy



:shammy

"Yes, don't listen to anybody kid. Do what I did and you will be the best player ever, except for me. There is no "I" in team but there is no team without "ME"."

POTW material right there, IMO...

Jerry_Manuel
02-21-2002, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Does he think he is guaranteed a slot on the big club because at one time he was the top prospect in the organization? Everyone here likes to talk about attitude... What does it say about a guys attitude when he won't do everything possible to improve his game when he is trying to make the team?

He'd be the starter if Williams could have dealt, Clayton. It's that simple.

RedPinStripes
02-21-2002, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


He'd be the starter if Williams could have dealt, Clayton. It's that simple.

Joe Crede AKA: President of the I hate Royce Clayton club.
:crede
"Do I need to say why?"